This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: The SparkFile podcast may contain profanity and other adult content. Please use your discretion.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark files.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark style.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone, everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: I am Laura Camien.

[0:46] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:53] Laura Camien: If you're an OG member of the Sparkfile community, hey, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, hey, welcome, friend.

[1:01] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: But hold up, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a sparkfile?

[1:11] Laura Camien: A sparkfile is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and all of your fascinations.

[1:20] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:27] Laura Camien: Hey, don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:44] Susan Blackwell: Or a long form investigation that processes perceived creative failure and makes something funny, wise, and optimistic out of it.

[1:53] Laura Camien: Ah! Oh, I'm gonna love this.

[1:55] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our Sparkfiles and exchange some sparks.

[2:00] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us as well.

[2:04] Susan Blackwell: This means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:08] Laura Camien: Do we ever?

[2:10] Susan Blackwell: So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:15] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the Sparks file.

[2:25] Laura Camien: Spark Day.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: I love a good Sparks Day.

[2:26] Laura Camien: How you doing, little Laura Camien?

[2:30] Susan Blackwell: Suzy, percentage of people growing up that called you Susan versus Suzy.

[2:37] Laura Camien: Susie.

[2:38] Susan Blackwell: Susie, all the way. When did you switch to Susan?

[2:41] Laura Camien: Uh, my family always called me Susie, which is so funny now because when I think of it, I'm like, I don't strike myself as a very Susie.

[2:51] Laura Camien: But I still I answer to it and I don't mind it at all. And it sort of reminds me of my dad, which reminds me of things that make me feel warm.

[3:00] Laura Camien: So like high Susie quotient when I was younger.

[3:03] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[3:03] Laura Camien: And I think probably when I went to school.

[3:06] Susan Blackwell: You started to go by Susan.

[3:08] Laura Camien: Well, not going by it, but just because, you know, that's what I was called.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:12] Laura Camien: Though I do remember there's I if I'm remembering correctly, I have like homework from when I was little or assignments that I did in class, and I would write my name out Suzy Blackwell.

[3:25] Susan Blackwell: And was it with a Y or an I E?

[3:27] Laura Camien: I E S U S I E. S-U-S-I-E, not S-U-Z-I-E.

[3:33] Susan Blackwell: Mm mm S-U-S-I-E.

[3:34] Laura Camien: This has been another episode of the Sparks File. I'm Sparked.

[3:37] Susan Blackwell: And so I just call you Suze, though, because I don't think Susie feels right to me.

[3:42] Laura Camien: Uh, sometimes I say Susie Q, but Suze, maybe you're like, you know what, Cams? I've never liked Suze either.

[3:50] Susan Blackwell: I love all of it. I don't mind any of it.

[3:52] Laura Camien: Okay.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: I enjoy all of it. Because I feel like all of it, the story I tell myself is it all comes from a place of affection and I'll take it.

[4:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:02] Laura Camien: I know there's some people that prefer their like, please use my and I don't fault them for it. They're like that's what feels right. I'm Nathan, not Nate, I'm Nicholas, not Nick or Nikki.

[4:13] Susan Blackwell: And I respect all of it, but me, you could call me a lot worse than I'm putting my dad.

[4:19] Laura Camien: You hear that, everybody? We can call her anything.

[4:22] Susan Blackwell: Just don't call me late for dinner.

[4:24] Laura Camien: Hey, do you uh um anything else to cover any other important conversation to cover up on?

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna say something that this is all gonna be completely wrong scientifically. But I read an article today. Here's some junk science coming your way, friends.

[4:41] Laura Camien: Here's some total junk science.

[4:43] Susan Blackwell: I read an article today about this little bay in Scotland where they have actually researched there is a dolphin that talks to the turtles, the porpoises. They literally have studied it. They saw it happening.

[4:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:59] Susan Blackwell: Um, but there's something to do with like dolphins speak in sort of clicks, uh-huh. And but they're at a certain register, and this dolphin for some reason doesn't talk to any of the other dolphins, but speaks at the frequency and the register of these porpoises.

[5:15] Laura Camien: And so it's one of the very rare examples that they have. They're finding more and more, I think, just based on the technology that we have to discover things, but interspecies communication.

[5:26] Susan Blackwell: I think there's a children's book for sure in that, if not a Pixar film.

[5:29] Laura Camien: I think you're totally right.

[5:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I just was like, you know what? That's just the kind of thing. It's not enough to be an entire spark. Or if it were, I would need to do a lot more research.

[5:41] Laura Camien: But I love Nat Geo. And I love like scientific things. And I'm sort of like, if I can use a scientific thing in an imaginary way, I'm all for it.

[5:52] Susan Blackwell: I love it. We have to look into that. That's one of those things. I have a spark, but it's just me reading a headline.

[5:58] Laura Camien: And well, I'll say this to Wes all the time. I'm like, babe, did you hear about this thing? And he's like, no, what is that? And I'm like, I just read the headline. But the headline was like.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: I was hoping that you would fill me in.

[6:08] Laura Camien: I do that to Nathan all the time. Where I'm like, hey, did something happen in Portugal of note? And he's like, yeah, did you read about that? I was like, no, but I was hoping you did so you can fill me in.

[6:20] Susan Blackwell: Tell me everything.

[6:21] Laura Camien: I get most of my news through you and Nathan.

[6:26] Susan Blackwell: It's helpful because as a sensitive soul, sometimes the news is so overwhelming.

[6:30] Laura Camien: So sometimes, yes.

[6:31] Susan Blackwell: But I can take it a little better.

[6:32] Laura Camien: You were the person who I think you were my source of breaking news during the insurrection.

[6:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I wonder.

[6:39] Laura Camien: You were, I was like, yeah. I was just like, you go ahead and just that's when I watched cable news, but I don't we don't even have it anymore.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: You stepped off.

[6:49] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[6:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That'll be enough of that, sir. Less insurrection stories, more stories about dolphins and porpoises speaking to each other.

[6:58] Laura Camien: I'll take that. I'll take those stories. My children's book on that topic coming out in 2024.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: Hey, don't take my spark.

[7:06] Laura Camien: You're right. I respect your spark.

[7:08] Susan Blackwell: Respect the spark.

[7:09] Laura Camien: Anything else to know before we launch?

[7:11] Susan Blackwell: I think I hit on the important things of the day.

[7:13] Laura Camien: I feel like you did. World news.

[7:16] Susan Blackwell: Um, Cam, where to begin with the spark I'm gonna share with you today. I'm really, really, as I've said, I've teased several times in the past week. I'm really excited about the spark.

[7:26] Laura Camien: I'm so excited about the spark, and I need to have it just true confession, folks. I saw the name of it. So I don't know if my enthusiasm is misplaced, but I know the name of Susan's Sparks, and based on it and what I think it is, I am so fucking excited.

[7:45] Laura Camien: But then again, my heart might be broken by it. So I'm trying to measure my expectations. Just to take it moment by moment and um I'm gonna go on the ride.

[7:54] Susan Blackwell: Here we go.

[7:54] Laura Camien: Let's go on the ride. So, you know, I love a good, what we call a let me try that again.

[8:00] Susan Blackwell: You do, you do.

[8:01] Laura Camien: And I do.

[8:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[8:03] Laura Camien: So back in 2020, in a spark that I did called Finishing Unfinished Business, I shared this concept of let me try that again. My friend Thomas Schulteis and I created a workshop called Let Me Try That Again, which is a framework for processing perceived creative failure.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: And Sparks on Sparks, Let Me Try That Again is the name of a benefit that Jonathan Bernstein and Steve Pasqual dreamed up for the performance arts project. Steve and Jonathan conceived of this let me try that again first.

[8:36] Laura Camien: And what they envisioned was a benefit where celebrated Broadway film and TV performers revisit a moment in their creative or performative life where they just shit the bed and they share the story of the perceived creative failure, and then live on stage in front of an audience, they do a let me try that again and they take another swing at it.

[8:59] Susan Blackwell: So let me try that again. This concept that Jonathan and Steve came up with, and the Let Me Try That Again workshop that Thomas and I created operate under the belief that as long as you can draw breath, you can clean things up, you can take another try at something, you can finish unfinished business.

[9:15] Laura Camien: And it's best summed up in the words of John Lennon. Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.

[9:24] Susan Blackwell: I love that quote.

[9:25] Laura Camien: I do too. I think it's I attribute that to John Lennon. I hope that I'm not misattributing it.

[9:35] Susan Blackwell: So like it's Mother Teresa.

[9:36] Laura Camien: But if we don't hear from anyone, we're gonna assume it's true.

[9:39] Susan Blackwell: I'm just gonna keep going and spreading misinformation.

[9:42] Laura Camien: So when I talked about it on the podcast a few years back, I shared some ways that you could take the let me try that again concept and make something out of it.

[9:51] Susan Blackwell: The thing I like about finishing unfinished business and our creativity is that you get to explore something, you get to find peace in it, and then potentially you get to make something awesome out of it.

[10:05] Laura Camien: So it's sort of yeah, so it sort of settles something in your that sense of restless, unfinished business in your body and in your heart. And then potentially you actually get to make something out of it.

[10:17] Susan Blackwell: So cut to a few weeks back, beloved member of the Sparkfile community, Laura Coward. Hi Laura.

[10:23] Laura Camien: Yes, Laura!

[10:25] Susan Blackwell: I feel like you should take a drink every time you hear Laura Coward's name on this podcast. Laura Coward left us a message. She left a message for both of us with a spark that is one of the greatest illustrations of Let Me Try That Again that I have ever encountered.

[10:40] Laura Camien: And you have to remember, I have performed at, hosted, and sat through so many Let Me Try That Again performances.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: Like you have looked for these things.

[10:50] Laura Camien: I have looked into the eyes of the Let Me Try That Again.

[10:53] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[10:53] Laura Camien: But this one might be the king of them all. It is a podcast created, written, and produced by actor and comedian Connor Ratliff called Dead Eyes.

[11:05] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien. Laura Coward left both both of us this message, recommended this very sparky podcast, Dead Eyes.

[11:12] Laura Camien: Did you happen to listen to the podcast, Dead Eyes?

[11:15] Susan Blackwell: No.

[11:15] Laura Camien: And I'll say I knew you wanted this spark. I knew you wanted it. And I just I knew it in my bones. I'm like, I love this so much. But I know Susie Blackwell and I know she's gonna want this. I jumped on it.

[11:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so I stepped aside.

[11:34] Laura Camien: I stepped aside. Respect the spark.

[11:37] Susan Blackwell: I respect the spark. I appreciate it. But I cannot wait. I cannot wait.

[11:40] Laura Camien: You haven't listened to it yet, but lucky for you, Flora Camien, and you sparklers, and lucky for me too. I binged that podcast.

[11:49] Susan Blackwell: And now I'm going to unpack for you why I think this is such a glorious example of how Let Me Try That Again can be such a spark of inspiration for humans and creatives.

[12:02] Laura Camien: The Dead Eyes podcast begins with a voice saying, This is Dead Eyes, a podcast about one actor's quest to find out why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers.

[12:20] Susan Blackwell: That is your voiceover intro. And that's it. This is the podcast. This is the conceit of the whole podcast, which has run for three seasons and 31 episodes thus far.

[12:32] Laura Camien: Wait a minute. So season one, season two, we didn't get to an answer. So we just can we're we're continually on the quest to find the answer.

[12:41] Susan Blackwell: The adventure continues.

[12:43] Laura Camien: Find out why Tom Hanks fired this actor from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers.

[12:50] Susan Blackwell: Can I just say it feels also like seven degrees of Kevin Bacon? Like you're like I can imagine him just like needing to get to the inner circle of Tom Hanks in order to get the answer eventually.

[13:03] Laura Camien: And I don't know if he has or not, but you know what? I went back and forth about whether I'm going to reveal how far Connor has gotten in the 31 episodes. And I'm not going to. I'm not gonna tell you.

[13:14] Susan Blackwell: I won't ask you.

[13:16] Laura Camien: Because I think it's like that old um advertisement. It's not the destination, it's the journey.

[13:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:22] Laura Camien: Connor gets to some pretty satisfying destinations on the podcast.

[13:28] Susan Blackwell: The journey is everything.

[13:31] Laura Camien: It's everything. And I want people to hopefully after you listen to this, if it sounds like your cup of sparks, then you will go and you will you'll listen to it. And if it's not, then you won't. But um I'm just saying, I don't know how far you got and I won't ask you to spoil anything.

[13:47] Susan Blackwell: This as it is set up, yeah, it would entail needing to get into the inner circles or even into the mind of Tom Hanks to find out why he was fired.

[13:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[13:59] Susan Blackwell: And presumably, if you have the ability to pick up a phone and ask that question, you wouldn't need to make a podcast about it.

[13:59] Laura Camien: You wouldn't need to make 31 episodes of a podcast.

[14:08] Susan Blackwell: Right?

[14:08] Laura Camien: Okay. So it's pretty fucking phenomenal.

[14:11] Susan Blackwell: I'm with you.

[14:11] Susan Blackwell: So, uh, near the beginning of the podcast, we hear right at the top, frankly, we hear from Connor Ratliff himself, who tells us this is a story about something that happened almost 20 years ago.

[14:23] Laura Camien: He lets us know it's not an important story, but it does involve one of the most popular and successful movie stars of all time, Tom Hanks.

[14:32] Susan Blackwell: And it involves Connor, and there's a mystery at the heart of it that he's determined to solve: the mystery of his dead eyes.

[14:43] Susan Blackwell: So let's talk about Connor Ratliff and his allegedly dead eyes. So first, Connor. Now, I want to say I relate deeply to Connor Ratliff because Connor Ratliff is a working class actor. You may not know his name, but you've probably seen him on Mrs. Maisel or The Blacklist or Search Party. In fact, he plays my girl Bonnie Milligan's fiancé on Search Party, which is where I first became aware of him. I might have also noticed him in the movie Don't Think Twice, which is the great movie that Mike Birbiglia wrote and directed about improv. It's sort of set in the New York improv scene. And he's really Connor Ratliff is great in that. I relate deeply to his like working class actor status because it's sort of as an actor, it's where I'm kind of positioned. It's sort of like you audition, you get stuff, we have enough success to have our SAG insurance. Like, you know, he's we're just like working class actors. So I see him. I just googled him.

[15:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:48] Susan Blackwell: Do you recognize Connor Ratliff?

[15:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. He's really distinct. And, you know, I forgot to write this in my Sparks, but I'm gonna say it now before I forget. It's not mentioned anywhere across the 31 episodes of the podcast Dead Eyes. I think Connor Ratliff has a very distinct voice. And at times it sounds like Tom Hanks's voice.

[16:11] Laura Camien: Oh, interesting.

[16:13] Susan Blackwell: Connor Ratliff, if you're listening to this right now, listen to your voice when you sort of come in, especially when it's you have a lot of breath and it's energized, like at the top of a segment at the top of a commercial, it has tones that are similar to tones that Tom Hanks sometimes uses, but it's never mentioned. And I was like, anybody here on this besides me? So I thought that was interesting.

[16:35] Laura Camien: Interesting, meaning like that potentially had something to do with it.

[16:38] Susan Blackwell: But Tom Hanks isn't in Band of Brothers.

[16:41] Laura Camien: No, no, no, no.

[16:42] Susan Blackwell: I don't think that had anything to do with Tom Hanks claiming that Connor Ratliff had dead eyes. But I thought it was very interesting that their voices have at times a similar quality.

[16:54] Laura Camien: I thought you were gonna say, and then listening to his voice on Dead Eyes, it's actually his voice that sounds dead.

[16:59] Susan Blackwell: I thought that's how I cut in. I was like his voice is very lively. His voice is very lively, and I'll say this again later. But Connor Ratliff, again, if you're in if you're listening to this, which you might be, I don't know. If I if somebody did a whole episode of a podcast about me, you bet your ass I'd listen to it. We're just trying to lure you in. Connor Ratliff, if you're listening to this, do come be on the Sparkfile podcast.

[17:22] Laura Camien: Please do.

[17:23] Susan Blackwell: Please do. Um, no, his voice is not a Deadey's voice. It is distinct, it is lively, and he's a really, really great writer, and he's really funny. I do recognize him, but I have intense respect. Not even having listened to the podcast yet, but when I learned of the podcast, and again, I stepped aside because I knew you would love it. But I was like, I talked about that podcast not having heard it to probably five people. I was just like, this is fucking genius. So mad respect.

[17:56] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[17:57] Susan Blackwell: And that anybody who does 31 episodes of anything, you could do 31 episodes of just the sounds your farts make, and it would be impressive because most podcasts fade out after what is it, like five or something.

[18:11] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh, less than three months or not less than seven episodes, I guess.

[18:16] Susan Blackwell: There's a certain percentage.

[18:17] Laura Camien: 75% of podcasts end before their seventh episode.

[18:22] Susan Blackwell: And I want to say officially, Dead Eyes podcast is so much better than 31 episodes of the sounds that someone's farts make. And there's your poll quote, Connor Ratliff. Okay, so okay, back to being a working class performer in the entertainment industry. When you're a performer, or if you're a human who is stepping into opportunities and structures that other people have created, then there are certain things outside of your control. Whether you work in an office or on a film set, and sometimes it can feel like you are a human prop or set dressing in service of other people's visions. And sometimes it means that shortly after graduating from drama school, full of youthful optimism and confidence, you can get a job, sign the contracts, and then be fired hours before you're scheduled to film because Tom Hanks thinks you have dead eyes.

[19:18] Laura Camien: And sometimes your representation will make the mistake of sharing that assessment with you, and that information will burn a hole into your brain.

[19:27] Susan Blackwell: And that information and that hole that it burnt into your brain can change your trajectory. And if you're Connor Ratliff, you may stop pursuing your dreams of becoming a performer and work at the Union Square Barnes and Noble for 13 years before dipping your toe back into improv comedy and show business.

[19:47] Laura Camien: Wow.

[19:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Bless him. I was going to say it's kind of a dickish move to give someone to share that note because it is not what are you going to do to change your eyes?

[19:59] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

[20:01] Susan Blackwell: And that's the kind of thing I could just worm around in your brain, settle in, obviously, take hold, and be something you think about at every audition ever.

[20:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think that it was just sort of a messy mistake. And it's information that clearly should have never gotten back to him.

[20:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Because when you're a performer, you know this, Camps, when you're a performer and you're in front of an audience or in front of a camera lens, it adds a level of scrutiny that is already a challenge to navigate sometimes. And then you have comments, criticism, positive reviews, like any sort of input about some aspect of your whether it's your appearance or the way your voice sounds, or your this or your that, the way you say a certain line a certain way, or your catchphrase. And it's just like you can get all up in your head in a way that is not useful when you're trying to appear unobserved.

[21:02] Laura Camien: And people forget that there's a human being behind.

[21:05] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[21:06] Laura Camien: That it's not just like, yeah, I guess when you're looking and you're assessing a reel or a piece of video, it's easy to be like, eh, I don't know, his hairline looks funny, or uh, you know, her lips are thin, or you know, they're you're making observations and you forget, like that's a human being with feelings, and most of those things aren't said when that person's in the room.

[21:29] Susan Blackwell: Somebody shares an anecdote about how a director has said to them, you are not allowed to watch the dailies and the rushes. Because when we're in that room, we need to be able to say, What is their neck doing? And uh, that take that their voice on that take, and just to be able to just be direct and clear. And if you're the actor whose face is cast up on that screen, it's just too much. It's and sometimes like that's not even it when they say what's their neck doing, what they actually are making a note for the cameraman, like what the hell is the angle you're shooting from? Like that needs an adjustment. But as the actor, you're gonna hear, like, my neck is weird.

[22:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, my neck is funny. What's wrong with my neck?

[22:13] Susan Blackwell: Laura, did you ever have like a dead like in your and this could be any type of creative, not just a performer. Did you ever have like a dead eyes moment where someone said something that just like lodged in your brain and and pulled you up short for a time?

[22:29] Laura Camien: Yes.

[22:31] Susan Blackwell: Are you hesitant to speak about it?

[22:32] Laura Camien: I am, I am, but I'll bounce that question right back to you.

[22:37] Susan Blackwell: All right, I see what you did there.

[22:38] Laura Camien: Uh huh.

[22:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think I probably shouldn't.

[22:41] Laura Camien: Yeah, I did have a I probably had more than one, but the one that jumps to my mind is I was so excited. I this was years ago. Gosh, this might this really was like 20 years ago. This might be my dead eyes experience. I was cast in a short film directed by Jim Jarmouche. Jim Jarmouche is sort of this like super, I thought he was so sexy. He looks like this tall, I thought he was like a tall ghost. He has like white hair and full lips, and he makes like these like sort of independent films. And I was so excited to be in this very small short film that he and directed. Who wouldn't be excited about that?

[23:25] Susan Blackwell: And I was I was playing opposite um an actor who many of you may love their work. I love their work, named Chloe Sevigny.

[23:34] Laura Camien: And it was bad.

[23:37] Susan Blackwell: It was a bad experience. And I got home from that shoot and literally it was uh the it concluded on a very, very cold winter's night night shoot outdoors in Chelsea, and he was just yelling at me, and it was like I couldn't do anything right. And I got home from that shoot, like crawled into bed and didn't come out for a few days. And I thought, I don't think I can be in this business.

[24:06] Laura Camien: What was he yelling? What were what was it about?

[24:10] Susan Blackwell: I was so, you know, when I get into that fear place, I get really brittle and sort of I I couldn't take direction well because I was just like, I felt like I was doing it wrong. And he was just like I I wasn't doing what he wanted me to do. And he was losing patience. Everyone was very cold. It was the middle of the night on location, and he was just screaming at me.

[24:35] Laura Camien: Oh, Suze.

[24:38] Susan Blackwell: I'm so sorry you had to experience that.

[24:41] Susan Blackwell: Uh, it was terrible. And I thought it really set me back. And I thought, I can't be in this business. And years later, I went in for something with the casting director who had put me in that. And my let me try that again was I really thought about it. I really had processed it. And I went in and I sat down and I and I just said, before we read for this, I just want to tell you, I feel like I really failed at that in that beautiful little film that you cast me in. And um, I feel like I've grown so much, grown into myself so much, and I'm just thankful for an opportunity to read for you again. And you know what they said?

[25:19] Laura Camien: What?

[25:20] Susan Blackwell: We don't remember anything about that.

[25:22] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[25:22] Susan Blackwell: We didn't, we don't remember ever hearing anything in negative about that. And it was one of those things where I had carried the story for decades.

[25:30] Laura Camien: But how lovely that you got to rewrite the ending.

[25:33] Susan Blackwell: You got to, you know, feel complete about that and let it go.

[25:37] Laura Camien: But for a long time, I thought about it a lot.

[25:40] Susan Blackwell: And it really, really set me back. Um, so I relate deeply to Connor's story. But let's talk more about Connor. I think the thing that makes Connor's story unique is that number one, even after experiencing profound professional disappointment and being blown sideways by a powerful person's opinion of him, he eventually also found his way back to doing work that he loves and work that he's very, very good at. And number two, with this podcast, he pulled off again, one of the greatest let me try that again I can think of. He extended this story. He rewrote the ending for himself. He created the thing that he is now most well known for.

[26:21] Laura Camien: And I think he would say the thing that has brought him the most success, this podcast called Dead Eyes.

[26:28] Susan Blackwell: That is how you do it.

[26:29] Laura Camien: That's how you do it.

[26:31] Susan Blackwell: So when we teach the let me try that again process to people, and we do we do this in our in our um Sparkfile community.

[26:38] Laura Camien: We absolutely do.

[26:39] Susan Blackwell: When we share this, because we think it is such, I wish everybody, every human, not just creatives, was aware of this process. We share this passage from the podcast, You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes. Pete's guest was Rob Bell. And Rob Bell said this. Imagine you're at a dinner party seated next to Alan, and Alan is like, I was pretty good from the beginning. And then I tried some new stuff, and I was pretty good at that. And then I branched out and I tried some new areas. Turns out I was winning there too. At some point, you're like, Alan's a dick. I don't like his stories, and I don't even like Alan. It's just a flat line of success and winning.

[27:19] Laura Camien: And Rob Bell goes on.

[27:21] Susan Blackwell: The thing that we most regret and wish hadn't happened to us is the thing that rescues us. It's all the bumps and obstacles. The worst part becomes the best part. The game is to give the failure whatever expression it needs in the moment. But even in the moment, being able to say, I wonder what this will do. I wonder what I can do with this. So end quote. Thank you, Rob Bell for those words.

[27:47] Laura Camien: Thank you, Rob Bell.

[27:48] Susan Blackwell: I think Rob Bell is talking about expressing curiosity even when failure is causing you real time pain. It's putting the pain in the light. Literally, instead of like, I have this shameful thing buried in my past that I carry with me that no one can see, I'm actually going to take it out, put it right in front of everyone, shine a light on it, amplify it.

[28:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:16] Susan Blackwell: Like the opposite of what it feels tempting to do.

[28:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:20] Susan Blackwell: I will also say sometimes that work when you're in the wound of it, like when it is an open wound, yeah. I think that is the time to do that work privately.

[28:31] Laura Camien: And when it is a scar, then you can start making 31 episodes of the Dead Eyes podcast, you know?

[28:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Or it maybe it's maybe it's not wholly healed, but it's it's on its way, like you've done some work on it.

[28:44] Laura Camien: You have to have some perspective on it at that point.

[28:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I can tell in our clients' work when they're writing you can tell so clearly when someone they may be writing from, they may be writing from a wound or they may be creating something out of a scar.

[29:02] Laura Camien: And there are times when I'm in one piece of writing where I'm like, scar, scar, scar, wound, wound, scar, scar, scar, wound, wound.

[29:13] Susan Blackwell: You can just tell so clearly. And I think Connor Ratliff is truly like he is making something from a scar, like a healed scar.

[29:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:24] Susan Blackwell: I mean, it it's interesting because he had also already processed enough to, like you said, get back to auditioning. And I'm uh you may be about to tell us more, but get back to auditioning, booking roles, yes, um, doing work, and then could go back and revisit like hey that's right, now let's put this in the light.

[29:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And I think yes to all of that. And I think there were some other factors that I'll get to in a second that I think are really relevant. So how do you well, how do you get from the wound to the scar? And you know, what factors are relevant there?

[29:55] Susan Blackwell: So um on the Dead Eyes podcast, which again, it's so funny, it's beautifully written and it's gorgeously produced. The use of music, the way it's edited, is like it's just top quality through and through. Um, Ratliff sets out across these 31 episodes, ostensibly to discover the real story behind why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers. But it is so much deeper than that.

[30:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:23] Susan Blackwell: And along the way, he talks to a slew of world-class artists to learn about their own Dead Eyes experiences, those times when they lost the job or shit the bed or received tough criticism or felt like a flaming curveball was hurled at them or their work and what they have made of it. On episode five, Connor talks to the musician Amy Mann.

[30:47] Laura Camien: Oh Amy Mann, who is so wonderful, originally Amy Mann, you know her from Voices Carrie, but has made so much beautiful work since then.

[30:57] Susan Blackwell: And Amy Mann agreed to talk to Connor because she was a fan of the Dead Eyes podcast.

[31:02] Laura Camien: I would I just have a question. How did he research?

[31:05] Susan Blackwell: Because I have attempted to do some research on failure.

[31:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[31:09] Susan Blackwell: And I'm so curious. I wonder how he like how he became aware of who the people were that were willing to tell their stories and had big failure stories to talk about.

[31:20] Laura Camien: Well, I think everybody, any artist who has been working for any period of time has them in their trunk. They they have them, but I think he sort of followed a breadcrumb trail.

[31:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[31:31] Laura Camien: And people that were magnetized to him, like Amy Mann.

[31:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I also have a suspicion. Amy Mann seems to be a friend to comedians. She's on Portlandia.

[31:41] Laura Camien: Yeah, she does the theme song for I Said No Gifts for Bridget Weineger.

[31:45] Susan Blackwell: Like she's a friend to comedians, it seems to me. She appeared on the scene because it seems like maybe Connor knew her before, maybe he didn't, but she seemed to be a fan of this podcast. Awesome.

[31:55] Laura Camien: And I think that he just followed the trail and then asked the right questions.

[32:00] Susan Blackwell: And I love the questions. And I feel like they are versions of questions that we talk about on our makersodes about tell us about a crew, you know, a time when you failed. And just to normalize the fact that all of us, we all fail. All humans and artists fail. And it's what you do after that matters.

[32:21] Laura Camien: If you're not failing, you're not doing anything.

[32:24] Susan Blackwell: If you're not failing, you're not doing anything. Come on. So the connection to Amy Mann is significant because Connor had listened to Amy's music when he was grieving his firing from Band of Brothers. He listened to an album that she had put out close to that over and over and over again.

[32:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:44] Susan Blackwell: And because Connor had created the Dead Eyes podcast, he created an opportunity for Amy Mann to become a deeper part of the narrative 20 years later. This became not just an artist he admired whose music he loved. She became a discussion partner. And then, if that weren't delicious enough, Amy Mann provides a whole catalog of music that we hear threaded throughout the run of the podcast.

[33:13] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[33:15] Susan Blackwell: And every episode, it's a fresh Amy Mann song. It's like she opened up her catalog.

[33:21] Laura Camien: That's amazing.

[33:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And in a in a way, again, this is also like manifesting opportunity for yourself, manifesting like dream conversations for yourself and dream collaborations for yourself.

[33:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:37] Susan Blackwell: Make your own work. Yeah. And invite people into it. But invite people into it. You know, we've done it with the Sparkfile podcast. We do it with like our classes. People come and uh, you know, people we admire so much, come and teach and work with our groups. We did it with Title of Show. When you are making something of quality, it magnetizes people to that. You know, it magnetizes all sorts of people, including established artists who admire what you're doing. And that's exactly what Connor did.

[34:09] Laura Camien: In that conversation, Connor says to Amy Mann, I like turning things that are failures into art. I think trying to be successful and failing at stuff is really interesting. And I sort of approach everything from the point of view like, well, this will be really great, or it'll be a complete failure. But even then, it can still be molded into something great.

[34:31] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes. It's that that thing is either going to be a great work of art or it's gonna be a great story. You're gonna have something at the end of the day, no matter what, if you're doing. And what Connor has made is a great story and a great work of art.

[34:47] Laura Camien: Hells yes.

[34:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Now, did he happen to say did he feel that way about it 20 years ago when it first happened? Or is this sort of knowledge and wisdom that has come about over time?

[34:58] Laura Camien: Oh, over time.

[34:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Oh no, I mean, I cannot stress enough. Let me just say it again. Connor Ratliff, shortly out of drama school, gets cast. It it's a small part, but it's exciting and it points to a potential for what his career is going to be. Like he's thinking, this is a huge television event. This is a huge production. They're recreating World War II. This is the beginning of my life. He tells his family, he tells friends, he's excited. He signs the contract. He is ready to film when he gets fired. And it was such a blow. It laid him so low that he worked at a Barnes and Noble for 13 years.

[35:38] Laura Camien: I mean, flattened, yeah.

[35:40] Susan Blackwell: I get it though. I get it.

[35:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[35:43] Susan Blackwell: I get it as a sensitive soul and as just like a human. You know, I always admire like Billy Eichner when we talked to him on the podcast, and he was like, Oh, you have to be able to read the reviews. And I was like, I for respect you, Billy, but I do not have that skin. I don't have that thick skin. And I just think it it is you you think that the next 72 hours of your life are going to be like, you're gonna be like, oh, PS Tom Hanks was directing that episode.

[36:15] Laura Camien: So it he likes starring with these actors you admire, directed by Tom Hanks, Steven Spielberg is producing, and then what happens is you get sent home on a train in tears.

[36:26] Susan Blackwell: For something that you have zero control over.

[36:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, what oh, yeah.

[36:31] Susan Blackwell: And when you're not an actor who's been in the game for 20 years, it feels really, really important. When you don't have like a ton of rejection and a ton of success behind you, it feels really important.

[36:44] Laura Camien: Well, yeah, because that comment feels also definitive. It feels like decidedly so.

[36:50] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And you don't have like, but wait, here's look at look at me in four films. Like, look, my eyes are not dead. You don't have that. You don't have that body of evidence built up yet.

[37:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:01] Susan Blackwell: I mean, for my part, it's so much easier for me to take rejection and even criticism now because I'm like, oh, I have a huge body of work and a huge body of evidence and all sorts of things that I can point to for myself.

[37:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:17] Susan Blackwell: But when you're just starting out, you're listening for all the clues. And if the clue comes back that, oh no, we've we've gone a different way. We're still gonna pay you, but you're not gonna get to do it because you have dead eyes, like that is devastating.

[37:32] Laura Camien: Oof, yeah.

[37:33] Susan Blackwell: So there's this episode of the podcast where Connor recreates the scene that he was fired from on the HBO mini-series Band of Brothers, and it features most of the actual actors whom he would have played opposite when he fell with the job.

[37:49] Laura Camien: Are you kidding me?

[37:50] Susan Blackwell: No, he actually makes contact with, or they make contact with him, frankly, Ron Livingston and Stephen McColl, and acts out the scene on the podcast as scripted.

[38:02] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[38:03] Susan Blackwell: He even extends the story and writes and performs a little fan fiction centering the part that he was cast in and lost.

[38:13] Laura Camien: Come on.

[38:15] Susan Blackwell: This is amazing. It's a great let me try that again.

[38:19] Laura Camien: Does he so who went on to play the role? And does he connect with that person?

[38:21] Susan Blackwell: He does.

[38:24] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[38:25] Susan Blackwell: He does. He connects with that person. He connects with um historians to learn more about the person on whom the role is based. Like he learns more about World War II. This podcast goes in so many different directions. One of the criticisms that he got early on on the podcast was sort of like kind of what my dad would call thin soup.

[38:48] Laura Camien: That's thin soup.

[38:50] Susan Blackwell: Like, what are you gonna do? And he would be like, My response to that is I'm gonna sit down, I'm gonna put five minutes on the clock, and I'm gonna write as many ideas for episodes as I can. He made a list of what are all the different things, what are all the different episodes I could do on the Dead Eyes podcast? If someone's gonna tell me where are you going with this, it's not enough. It's too thin of a conceit. He was like, really? Because here's 31 episodes worth of ideas about what this could be.

[39:17] Laura Camien: Oh, amazing.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah, he travels a lot of terrain. It's really, it's really great. In that episode where he recreates the scene with the actors who actually were in the scene, he says this.

[39:35] Laura Camien: I will admit that creating a bonus scene, a private Zelinski band of brothers fan fiction is an indulgence, yes, but fundamentally a harmless one, and I do not regret doing it. On some level, maybe this is all about control. As an actor, you are rarely in control of your own circumstances unless you generate your own work, which comes with its own set of difficulties. You're usually relying on other people to say, yes, you can play this role. You are what we are looking for. You get the part of this thing we are doing. Now, why did I do all this? What was the point? Well, part of it is I finally got my chance to hang out with Ron and Steven. Those are the other actors and they um in that scene. The way we might have done when we all broke for lunch. And we got to do a scene together, but I also got something more. These conversations were better than anything we would have said to each other back then.

[40:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[40:30] Laura Camien: It wasn't just chit chat. We got to talk honestly about what we were actually feeling because none of us are nervous about being in Band of Brothers anymore. This was a big deal for me. These were the real guys. I mean, not the real guys, but these were the guys who pretended to be those guys for the miniseries. And I almost got to pretend with them too on HBO. Now we made that happen on my little podcast. I mean, holy let me try that again.

[41:00] Susan Blackwell: So amazing.

[41:01] Laura Camien: It's so good. He's so good. And to just even to see the beauty and see the good in it, talk about having gratitude of like we actually had a much better conversation than I'm sure our 20-year-old selves would have had.

[41:17] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[41:18] Laura Camien: Um, this is far more fascinating and probably more like connective tissue between him and those guys now than just having done some scenes 20 years ago.

[41:30] Susan Blackwell: Totally, totally. I gotta say, this podcast is star-studded. Connor Ratliff, you roll deep and talk, he talks to so many fantastic artists. He interviews Tony Hale on the podcast.

[41:39] Laura Camien: Tony Hale, you might know from a rest of development, he played Buster, he won a million Emmy Awards for Veep.

[41:48] Susan Blackwell: Tony and I did a play together years ago. He's a total sweetheart, and it was interesting to hear him talk because you think, Tony Hale, he's set. He's this great person, he's a great actor, he works on great material, he's got a great family, he makes great money. But Tony was sharing the disappointments that he still experiences in his career, and he said something to our earlier conversation about how do you set yourself up to process a let me try that again in a way that maybe you you can access more easily.

[42:20] Laura Camien: Tony Hale said this, it really caught my ear. It's a weird uncertainty we walk in, this kind of walk of faith. When I talk to students, I always say, invest in your community before you invest in your career, because it's your community that's going to give you longevity because they're the people that are going to see you for who you are. When in the business, you're just a number sometimes. That's the only way I really survived was the community that I had gracefully been given when I was in New York, just my good friends, and that I could just, you know, come back and be like frustrated. But then they just kind of encourage me on and see me for who I am. And it was just everything to me. That's totally what kept me going.

[43:03] Susan Blackwell: Wow. As we say on this podcast, we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone. Uh and I think Connor is modeling that in this podcast. He's not a kid anymore. He's a mature creative who has surrounded himself by good people who love and support him and his work.

[43:22] Laura Camien: And I think that can make the flaming curve balls easier to process.

[43:26] Susan Blackwell: Amen.

[43:28] Laura Camien: Oh my God. Yes.

[43:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. While you're building up your body of evidence about your value as a creative, surround yourself with a like that good, strong community. It is just essential. There's plenty of people that are going to tell us you can't do it.

[43:46] Laura Camien: That seems weird.

[43:47] Susan Blackwell: I don't know about that.

[43:49] Laura Camien: You have dead eyes.

[43:51] Susan Blackwell: I mean, there's you're just gonna hear literally anything from anyone, and you've gotta have that group of people that know you, yeah, and can look at you and say, I know who you are and what you're capable of.

[44:05] Laura Camien: Keep going.

[44:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, we love it.

[44:08] Laura Camien: Keep going.

[44:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[44:09] Laura Camien: Um, throughout the podcast, again, there are so many episodes where artists we all admire share their own dead eyes moments in their careers.

[44:18] Susan Blackwell: Connor talks to other now notable actors who auditioned for Band of Brothers and didn't make the cut.

[44:25] Laura Camien: People like Zach Graff, who you know and love from Scrubs and Adam Scott from Sparks and Wreck.

[44:31] Susan Blackwell: Um, Judd Apatow.

[44:33] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[44:34] Susan Blackwell: Tells about a time.

[44:35] Laura Camien: This is amazing, Laura.

[44:37] Susan Blackwell: Judd Apatow talks about a time that some feedback from Jim Henson got back to him.

[44:43] Laura Camien: Jim Henson, whom Judd Apatow revered.

[44:47] Susan Blackwell: Jim Henson, who's Sesame Street, taught Judd Apatow to read.

[44:52] Laura Camien: It got back to Judd Apatow that when Jim Henson, Jim Henson was considering hiring the adult Judd Apatow for some work.

[45:01] Susan Blackwell: And Jim said that Judd lacked warmth, which Judd admits was his deepest fear.

[45:09] Laura Camien: Oh.

[45:09] Susan Blackwell: And Jim Henson, it got back to him that Jim Henson said he likes as a performer, he lacks warmth.

[45:16] Laura Camien: And while Judd Apatow was doing just fine, he said those words haunt him to this day.

[45:23] Susan Blackwell: Like he still thinks about that.

[45:25] Laura Camien: He needs to do a podcast.

[45:27] Susan Blackwell: He needs to do a 30-watt episode podcast.

[45:29] Laura Camien: Wow.

[45:30] Susan Blackwell: And he can call it Lax Warmth.

[45:32] Laura Camien: Lax warmth.

[45:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[45:34] Laura Camien: At the end of that episode, Connor says, if Jim Henson was the guy who taught Judd Apatow how to read, I think Judd was the guy who taught me how to fail.

[45:43] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes you fail by doing your best and then learning the right lessons from it when that's somehow not good enough.

[45:49] Laura Camien: Often the ingredients for future success are buried inside those failures if you're not too embarrassed to look at them closely.

[45:59] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna say it again for the people taking notes.

[46:03] Laura Camien: Often the ingredients for future success are buried inside those failures if you're not too embarrassed to look at them closely.

[46:11] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[46:12] Laura Camien: So the beginning of Connor Ratliff's podcast, Dead Eyes, he positions it as a mystery.

[46:18] Susan Blackwell: Will he be able to find out why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers?

[46:27] Laura Camien: But in the end, this podcast is so much more.

[46:30] Susan Blackwell: It is one artist's successful attempt at extending their own narrative and rewriting an ending that is much more deep, nuanced, and satisfying than it would have been if he had never been fired by Tom Hanks at all.

[46:46] Laura Camien: So thank you, Tom Hanks.

[46:49] Susan Blackwell: That's a more fantastic story.

[46:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:53] Susan Blackwell: I mean, in a way, that's how if you're Connor, you could look at it and be like, I'm so grateful that happened.

[46:59] Laura Camien: Again, that's how you reframe and keep writing until the end of the story is different.

[47:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:05] Laura Camien: Everything will be okay in the end.

[47:07] Susan Blackwell: It's not okay, it's not the end.

[47:09] Laura Camien: But that implies that you have to keep writing the story.

[47:13] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[47:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[47:15] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it?

[47:17] Laura Camien: What do we make of it?

[47:18] Susan Blackwell: Uh, if you have a podcast, listen how Connor Ratliff crafts his sponsored commercials.

[47:26] Laura Camien: Almost all of them relate back to the work of Tom Hanks, and it is masterfully done.

[47:32] Susan Blackwell: Hats off to you, my friend.

[47:34] Laura Camien: Really, really well done.

[47:35] Susan Blackwell: That is awesome.

[47:36] Laura Camien: That is awesome.

[47:38] Susan Blackwell: Clearly, Connor Ratliff went back and sampled the entire Tom Hanks oeuvre in order to prepare for this podcast.

[47:46] Laura Camien: It's masterfully done.

[47:48] Susan Blackwell: Well, that's just a delicious bank of possibilities and ideas.

[47:54] Laura Camien: It's a spark file of its own.

[47:56] Susan Blackwell: It is the Tom Hanks spark file.

[47:58] Laura Camien: If you teach acting, I believe this podcast should be required listening for your students.

[48:04] Susan Blackwell: It is the most complete depiction I have ever heard of what it's like to be a working actor, whether you're a person who recently graduated from drama school or a working class character actor or an Emmy winning TV actor or a two-time Oscar winner.

[48:21] Laura Camien: Instead of offering some cliché like, this business is tough.

[48:24] Susan Blackwell: If you can do anything else, do it, encourage an aspiring actor to listen to this podcast.

[48:30] Laura Camien: It's realistic, it's optimistic, and it provides this great sparky model of how to process creative disappointment and how to create your own work successfully.

[48:42] Susan Blackwell: So listen, if you're running an acting program, if you teach acting, I'm telling you, make this required listening.

[48:50] Laura Camien: Yes.

[48:50] Susan Blackwell: Another what do we make of it?

[48:52] Laura Camien: If you're in a position to give feedback, like if you're a casting director, a talent agent, a director, a friend, a peer, a member of a writing group, be thoughtful about the way you speak about people and to people about themselves and their creative work.

[49:10] Susan Blackwell: Be thoughtful and know that a misguided comment can really put a cigarette burn on somebody's brain and really waylay them for years.

[49:21] Laura Camien: So be thoughtful.

[49:22] Susan Blackwell: Don't be sloppy.

[49:23] Laura Camien: I think about it also in terms of the people that we love most.

[49:27] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes there can be a casualness that, like, from you to me or me to West or you to Nathan or Hunter to you, or there can be a casualness in feedback because we think like, oh, it's safe to say they know I love them and I can just say that.

[49:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:47] Susan Blackwell: And no, I know, like everyone think before you speak.

[49:52] Laura Camien: And some messages aren't meant for like, uh if you're like, for instance, if you're an assistant at a casting office or at an agent's office, like just be judicious and filtered about what gets passed on to actors because we are our own tools, you know, artists, actors, writers, we we are the product, we are the tool, we are the vessel.

[50:17] Susan Blackwell: And I think that you know, being thoughtful about that feedback, if it is something that someone might be able to grow and learn from and make an adjustment that could help them book work in the future, that is great.

[50:30] Laura Camien: It might still sting, but that could be great and just what they need to hear.

[50:35] Susan Blackwell: If you're commenting on something that that person does not have control over, oh my god, and there isn't anything that they can do to make their eyes less dead as you perceive them to be, then maybe that's not a helpful bit of feedback.

[50:51] Laura Camien: I remember casting director saying, Listen, as long as your hair is that color, you're never gonna work in this town.

[50:58] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, Are you fucking out of a Damon Runyon?

[51:02] Laura Camien: Like I was like, You're never gonna work in this town.

[51:04] Susan Blackwell: It's when my hair, my hair has been all the colors, friends, but it was red.

[51:08] Laura Camien: And they were like, You're never gonna work in this town if your hair is that color.

[51:11] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, What the fuck?

[51:13] Laura Camien: I was like, thank you for your truth.

[51:15] Susan Blackwell: Um sorry, but I do believe I could name a couple of people with red hair that have had fantastic careers.

[51:22] Laura Camien: Their hair color didn't stop it.

[51:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I work what a weird thing.

[51:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[51:27] Susan Blackwell: But like we say around the spark file.

[51:29] Laura Camien: Do we say this?

[51:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't think we do.

[51:30] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[51:31] Susan Blackwell: What are you gonna do?

[51:31] Laura Camien: Opinions are like buttholes, and everyone has a bag of them to have um the bag of buttholes, yeah.

[51:38] Susan Blackwell: I guess I don't think we do say that, but maybe we should.

[51:42] Laura Camien: I do think that casting directors with young actors get real casual.

[51:47] Susan Blackwell: They get real casual, and it's sort of like just be thoughtful, friends, be thoughtful.

[51:53] Laura Camien: More, what do we make of it?

[51:55] Susan Blackwell: Listen to the great Tony Hale.

[51:57] Laura Camien: Invest in your community, invest in a full rich life that is more than your work, invest in your mental health, cultivate interests other than your professional ambition, and also cultivate your evidence file of your wins and your successes.

[52:15] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yeah.

[52:16] Laura Camien: Yes, amen to that.

[52:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yes.

[52:19] Laura Camien: And if you get a harsh review, if someone doesn't like your work, if someone says you'll never work in this town with that hair color, you can let me try that again.

[52:27] Susan Blackwell: That shit.

[52:27] Laura Camien: Know that if you approach perceived creative failures with patience and curiosity.

[52:32] Susan Blackwell: If you ask, why is this happening for me instead of why is this happening to me, you are setting yourself up for growth and you are opening up the possibility of continuing the story and trying again.

[52:47] Laura Camien: Yes.

[52:49] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[52:49] Laura Camien: Yes.

[52:50] Susan Blackwell: I highlight and circle and underline all of the above.

[52:56] Laura Camien: This is so joyful.

[52:58] Susan Blackwell: I keep thinking about uh what do we make of it?

[53:01] Laura Camien: Is what if you gave yourself the assignment of whatever my biggest bit of criticism has been?

[53:10] Susan Blackwell: What if I were doing a 30-episode podcast about it?

[53:15] Laura Camien: How would I go about that?

[53:16] Susan Blackwell: Who would I have on?

[53:18] Laura Camien: And it we like from what can you examine it from every angle?

[53:22] Susan Blackwell: And I just find that to be fascinating.

[53:25] Laura Camien: I think about like Meryl Streep.

[53:26] Susan Blackwell: She was famously told she wasn't pretty enough in like early on before she got, I think Deer Hunter, she was up for like King Kong, and they were just like, who the hell sent this woman in here?

[53:38] Laura Camien: Wow.

[53:39] Susan Blackwell: She's like basically like you're a dog.

[53:41] Laura Camien: That's how many people actually call women dogs.

[53:44] Susan Blackwell: And and so, like, let's say you were given the criticism that you weren't uh pretty enough.

[53:50] Laura Camien: What kind of podcast, like what episodes could it be?

[53:53] Susan Blackwell: Like you could do one on like what is considered empirically beautiful, what are like beauty standards, what who are other people that were told they weren't beautiful enough.

[54:02] Laura Camien: I just think like what a fun assignment.

[54:05] Susan Blackwell: Whatever your form is, whatever form you're working in, whether you're a woodworker, if you're a painter, if you're a writer, if you're a songwriter, I've love this assignment.

[54:14] Laura Camien: I love this assignment, Laura.

[54:16] Susan Blackwell: Look into your heart and think about maybe a little scarred wound that you have had.

[54:24] Laura Camien: And um, I don't know, what what let me try that again?

[54:28] Susan Blackwell: Would you make in your genre?

[54:30] Laura Camien: I like it.

[54:31] Susan Blackwell: Love this.

[54:32] Laura Camien: I am smitten with Connor Ratliff.

[54:36] Susan Blackwell: I am just smitten with it.

[54:37] Laura Camien: I've I since the moment I heard of this, and now hearing even more about it, it's just deepened my love, and I need to listen to that podcast.

[54:47] Susan Blackwell: And here's a quick let me try that again.

[54:49] Laura Camien: I'm pretty sure I mispronounced your name at some point during this episode, Connor.

[54:54] Susan Blackwell: And so let me just clean that up right now and say this is Connor Ratliff.

[54:59] Laura Camien: I'm pretty sure I called you Connor Ratcliffe.

[55:01] Susan Blackwell: Daniel Radcliffe.

[55:02] Laura Camien: I think there may have been one of those up near the beginning, but it's Ratliff, Ratliff, Ratliff.

[55:09] Susan Blackwell: And the podcast is Dead Eyes, and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.

[55:13] Laura Camien: And if you're a performer, it is a bag of sparks.

[55:17] Susan Blackwell: So get into it.

[55:18] Laura Camien: Or even if you I think even if you have put your work out and gotten any kind of criticism from anyone, even your mother.

[55:26] Susan Blackwell: Like if you have gotten criticism, I bet this would be an amazing podcast.

[55:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:31] Susan Blackwell: Also, uh, here's another what do we make of it?

[55:33] Laura Camien: It got me watching Band of Brothers.

[55:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:36] Laura Camien: It got me watching Band of Brothers.

[55:37] Susan Blackwell: And now I'm learning more about the horrors of war.

[55:40] Laura Camien: So a tiny invisible hat tip to you, Connor Ratliff, as well.

[55:44] Susan Blackwell: Finally got Susan into Band of Brothers learning about World War II.

[55:48] Laura Camien: Maybe saving Private Ryan is next.

[55:50] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[55:51] Laura Camien: It's so gruesome.

[55:52] Susan Blackwell: It's really realistic and really it's a it's woo.

[55:55] Laura Camien: Well war war as hell.

[55:57] Susan Blackwell: I think I'm gonna check that out.

[55:59] Laura Camien: And I will do a pot, I will do a spark about my grandpa, and then we're gonna be able to confer more deeply about World War II and grandpa's and dead eyes and all of it.

[55:59] Susan Blackwell: And all of it.

[56:11] Laura Camien: Friends.

[56:12] Susan Blackwell: Oh, oh that's it.

[56:14] Laura Camien: Good Sparks Suze.

[56:16] Susan Blackwell: Thank you so much.

[56:18] Laura Camien: Thanks, Camps.

[56:19] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Connor.

[56:20] Laura Camien: Thanks, Connor.

[56:21] Susan Blackwell: This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people.

[56:25] Laura Camien: And as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[56:28] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, the sparkfile.com.

[56:42] Laura Camien: We will even take your feedback quite happily, but you know the price of admission.

[56:47] Susan Blackwell: First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[56:50] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast.

[56:56] Susan Blackwell: It really helps other listeners to find us.

[56:58] Laura Camien: Also, if you like this podcast, straight up share it with people that you love.

[57:03] Susan Blackwell: And if you didn't like it, I'm sorry to tell you, Tom Hanks called and he thinks you've got dead eyes and a dead heart.

[57:12] Laura Camien: We've decided to go a different direction, listener.

[57:17] Susan Blackwell: If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door.

[57:28] Laura Camien: It is your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[57:33] Susan Blackwell: You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[57:39] Laura Camien: Thank you, Laura Coward.

[57:40] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Connor Ratliff.

[57:41] Laura Camien: Thank you, Dead Eyes.

[57:42] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Susie B.

[57:44] Laura Camien: Bye.

[57:44] Susan Blackwell: Bye.

[57:46] Laura Camien: We're not bumping into something that inspires me, I dump it in the Sparks File.

[57:55] Susan Blackwell: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[58:00] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark files.

[58:05] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files.

[58:10] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.