This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, your Alpha and Omega for creative inspiration.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:46] Susan Blackwell: How douchey is that?

[0:47] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:48] Susan Blackwell: If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:51] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, we welcome you.

[0:54] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:58] Laura Camien: Where do I get one?

[0:59] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[1:00] Laura Camien: These are such good questions, and we do have answers.

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:09] Susan Blackwell: And here's the deal.

[1:10] Susan Blackwell: We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:12] Susan Blackwell: If you're anything like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you would like to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:23] Laura Camien: Holla.

[1:24] Susan Blackwell: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:31] Susan Blackwell: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:37] Susan Blackwell: Or an awareness of our own body and mind's response.

[1:44] Susan Blackwell: Or a framework for understanding your own creative journey.

[1:49] Laura Camien: Ooh, every episode we're gonna We're gonna reach into the Sparks file and we're gonna exchange some sparks.

[1:56] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:00] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might just enter the cave you fear and access the treasure that you seek.

[2:06] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the Sparks file.

[2:13] Laura Camien: Cammy!

[2:14] Susan Blackwell: Blackwell!

[2:16] Laura Camien: Cammyon!

[2:17] Susan Blackwell: What?

[2:17] Laura Camien: Cammyon!

[2:18] Susan Blackwell: Blackwell.

[2:19] Laura Camien: There was more Forrest Fen news.

[2:21] Laura Camien: Did you see that?

[2:23] Susan Blackwell: What?

[2:23] Susan Blackwell: No, I but I I didn't see anything this week.

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: What happened?

[2:27] Laura Camien: Okay.

[2:27] Laura Camien: Cammian, I'm so I meant to look this up before we got into this conversation.

[2:32] Laura Camien: Please bear with me while I reel time.

[2:35] Laura Camien: Oh no, there's even more Forrest Fenn news.

[2:38] Susan Blackwell: What?

[2:38] Laura Camien: It's so funny.

[2:39] Laura Camien: I just wanted to bring up an article to um share the mo there's an article on Inside Edition that says Forrest Fenn announced his treasure was found, but CBS anchor Tony uh Doku Piel says that may not be the case.

[2:56] Susan Blackwell: What for real?

[2:58] Susan Blackwell: Or is that that one person stirring up trouble saying, I don't know what's going on?

[3:02] Laura Camien: Oh, no, it's not that same woman.

[3:03] Laura Camien: It's a CBS This Morning anchor who says, I think the treasure is 100% real.

[3:09] Laura Camien: I don't, however, think it's been found.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: Why would Forrest Fenn say that it had?

[3:15] Laura Camien: So subsequently, since our last episode, I don't know if you've seen, but Forrest Fenn uh put posted these photos of himself.

[3:25] Laura Camien: He shared three photos of what he said were the chest, and like he said, it's it's darker than it was when he left it on the ground and walked away.

[3:35] Laura Camien: And he showed a picture of him wearing a bracelet that seems to have aged, you know, with uh um with time.

[3:44] Laura Camien: But this CBS anchor is saying that the photos aren't proof that the treasure has been found.

[3:49] Laura Camien: Noted that the pictures are on dated, taken in an unnamed location.

[3:54] Susan Blackwell: And I I'm sort of like, uh yes, I agree with him.

[3:59] Susan Blackwell: When I saw the article and I saw Forrest Fenn with the treasure box, I was like, that doesn't prove that it's been found.

[4:05] Susan Blackwell: It just proves that Forrest Fenn is in a picture with this treasure.

[4:09] Susan Blackwell: So it's not like he's holding up a picture of today's paper in front of the treasure.

[4:14] Laura Camien: Do you know what I mean?

[4:15] Susan Blackwell: That is true.

[4:16] Laura Camien: So I don't know.

[4:18] Laura Camien: I I I think it's still, I think it's still a little bit of a mystery.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: This is crazy because he said that it had been found and the anonymous person back east who found it.

[4:32] Susan Blackwell: I thought they just used a photo of him with the chest, like because they weren't gonna, you know, have a photo of the of the person back east, the finder of it.

[4:43] Laura Camien: I agree with you, but I also I'm I don't disagree with what the CBS anchor is saying, which is it's not really proof just because we've seen these pictures, and he says, look, it's aged.

[4:56] Laura Camien: It doesn't, it I don't think it's proof either.

[4:59] Laura Camien: Um, which is I was thinking about this more.

[5:02] Susan Blackwell: What were you gonna say?

[5:03] Laura Camien: I was just gonna say, like, wait, so there's Forrest Fenn in these photos saying it's aged.

[5:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:08] Susan Blackwell: So you're saying that.

[5:09] Laura Camien: Which doesn't make sense to me.

[5:11] Laura Camien: Why wouldn't it be with the tra that's that's why would it be with the person who found it?

[5:15] Susan Blackwell: It doesn't, unless they all had dinner together.

[5:17] Laura Camien: Like, we need more information.

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: We need more information.

[5:20] Laura Camien: Need more information.

[5:21] Laura Camien: Um anyway, fascinating.

[5:24] Laura Camien: A very slightly disappointing update.

[5:27] Laura Camien: But an update nonetheless.

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: Camps, do you have anything?

[5:32] Laura Camien: Oh, Cam, I've got another one for you.

[5:34] Susan Blackwell: What?

[5:34] Laura Camien: When we were talking about how this household has started to watch alone.

[5:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:39] Laura Camien: Oh, I've got to tell you something about that.

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: What?

[5:41] Laura Camien: I didn't realize, you were like, is it the most recent season?

[5:45] Laura Camien: And I was like, yeah, it's the most recent season.

[5:47] Laura Camien: I'm watching season six.

[5:49] Susan Blackwell: You were talking about season seven.

[5:51] Susan Blackwell: That's correct.

[5:53] Laura Camien: I was gonna tell you that.

[5:54] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:56] Laura Camien: So there were things that I learned talking to you that I was very careful not to say in front of the um the other watchers in my household because I thought it'd be fun if we arrived at them in real time.

[6:10] Laura Camien: But uh we finished season six, and now we're going back to the beginning and we're checking in with season one.

[6:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm so envious that you get to like live all of that.

[6:23] Susan Blackwell: I can't wait till you get to season seven.

[6:26] Laura Camien: There's one season that I'm gonna tell you, I'll warn you in advance.

[6:30] Laura Camien: They tried something, I don't know if it's season four or five, but they or three or four.

[6:36] Laura Camien: They tried something where it was like pairs.

[6:39] Laura Camien: So essentially it was like you got dropped off in one place, your partner got dropped off in another, you had to find your way to each other, and then set up your camp.

[6:51] Susan Blackwell: Um, I didn't watch all of that season.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: I I just I had accidentally skipped it for us for some reason and then came back to discovered it, you know, and came back to it and was like, oh, here's a season I haven't seen.

[7:04] Susan Blackwell: And I just didn't get into it as much as the others.

[7:07] Laura Camien: I have no idea.

[7:08] Laura Camien: One of the things I love about the show, honestly, is it's uh don't get me wrong, I don't think it's simple to produce that show, but I love the straightforwardness and the um there's sort of a clean simplicity to the rules of that show.

[7:24] Laura Camien: That it's not even the fact that they made a choice.

[7:27] Laura Camien: I I part of me wished that they would show you what 10 assets the person chose to bring.

[7:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, you know, but part of me loves that you're you're just sort of like it is so straightforward, it is so man against man, man, man, pardon me, man against himself, man against nature.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: Yes, or shall I say person against himself, person against nature?

[7:49] Laura Camien: There's something that's so beautiful about the sort of sleek simplicity of it that I don't uh I I'll go dig online if I need to know what 10 items that person chose to bring.

[8:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you know what?

[8:04] Susan Blackwell: Time to think of it, they probably do have that stuff online.

[8:07] Laura Camien: Um, and I've never looked for it, but you're right.

[8:10] Laura Camien: Sometimes I'll be so curious because someone will say, I didn't bring like a flint stick because I'm good at making fire.

[8:17] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, okay.

[8:18] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[8:19] Laura Camien: Best wishes.

[8:20] Laura Camien: Hey, but it gave me a spark for a birthday present for Nathan, which is we're watching that show, and he said, you know, I've always wanted those, they're called like barrel sticks or something, they're fire starters.

[8:32] Laura Camien: He's like, I've always wanted one of those.

[8:33] Laura Camien: I've never had one.

[8:35] Susan Blackwell: Uh and I was like, ah, good birthday spark.

[8:38] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[8:39] Susan Blackwell: That's birthday spark.

[8:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I love it.

[8:42] Laura Camien: I I just I'm so happy that you are watching it.

[8:46] Laura Camien: I'm so thrilled.

[8:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but I realized it once I turned it on.

[8:50] Susan Blackwell: I went to look on Netflix because I'm watching it on Prime.

[8:54] Susan Blackwell: And I said to Wes, I was like, Susan said they're watching it on Netflix.

[8:58] Susan Blackwell: We should go over there.

[9:00] Susan Blackwell: And um at FPX at season six.

[9:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:06] Susan Blackwell: Um, and I don't want to spoil anything for anybody.

[9:10] Susan Blackwell: But um I can't.

[9:14] Susan Blackwell: I just won't say anymore because I don't want to spoil anything for anybody.

[9:18] Laura Camien: Um that was a tease.

[9:21] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[9:22] Laura Camien: But there when we'll speak offline.

[9:24] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[9:25] Susan Blackwell: We will speak offline about it.

[9:27] Laura Camien: Did you remember what she wanted to say about something?

[9:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't remember.

[9:31] Susan Blackwell: I remember um coming across some news and thinking, oh, we could do a whole episode of like updates on our previous sparks, but not if I can't remember.

[9:40] Laura Camien: Somebody on social media was like, I love update episodes.

[9:43] Laura Camien: And I was like, they were talking about how they loved hearing updates from past you know, episodes, which I thought was fun.

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: That and somebody's paying attention.

[9:52] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, listeners for we dig into our own little forest pen treasure of sparks.

[10:00] Laura Camien: Uh, we should, we should.

[10:01] Laura Camien: I think I'm going first today.

[10:03] Susan Blackwell: Is that correct?

[10:03] Laura Camien: I think you are all right.

[10:06] Laura Camien: Well, Sue, speaking of digging deep, I dug deeper this week into my recent fascination with how all the things that we are grappling with in 2020 are affecting us mentally and physically and emotionally.

[10:25] Laura Camien: My friend, we are living in some really rapidly changing times.

[10:31] Laura Camien: It is no joke, Cammian.

[10:33] Laura Camien: It is a daily um uh personal investigation.

[10:38] Laura Camien: It's it's astonishing because if you do just a little bit of Googling, just a little research, there were articles in January and February of this year that were about fatigue and um kind of emotional crisis and the effect of 2020 on us.

[10:54] Laura Camien: And I was like, that was January.

[10:56] Laura Camien: That was nothing, but it was already so much, you know.

[11:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:00] Laura Camien: So I am so so so sparked when I when I just start to ruminate and consider the immediate and long-term repercussions of it all.

[11:11] Laura Camien: I began to think about how, like in history books, and you know I like to read about history, but the mental state, like the mental state of being that the people were in at any given time that you're reading about, it's typically summed up like in one sentence or even like a phrase as part of a sentence, things like tensions were high due to excessive unemployment, or people lived in fear of the black plague.

[11:42] Laura Camien: But at least in my education, we didn't often stop to like unpack that.

[11:47] Laura Camien: And what does that really mean?

[11:49] Laura Camien: How did that tension or those fears play out in their daily lives?

[11:53] Laura Camien: How were they emotionally impacted on a day-to-day basis?

[11:56] Laura Camien: Maybe this is why historical fiction is so delicious to some, because you instead of just sort of like uh, you know, on this date, this battle occurred, it is a deeper dive into what those experiences are really like for individuals and for communities of people.

[12:14] Susan Blackwell: No, you're right.

[12:15] Susan Blackwell: That definitely, and I love watching that stuff, like, especially if you if it's filmed and it's brought to life.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: Um it's so I'm often like, oh, I never really thought about like they had to do that every day, and that took two hours every day.

[12:31] Susan Blackwell: You know, like I'll just be fascinated by the the various like day-to-day details of their life.

[12:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:38] Laura Camien: Um, but I've been thinking about how, you know, haven't read much we've read so much about the flu of 1918, but not so much about the psychological effects.

[12:49] Laura Camien: I suspect that they didn't study that enough to like be able to really um, you know, yeah, it'd be more like a collection of anecdotal evidence.

[13:02] Susan Blackwell: It strikes me while you're speaking that it's not just historical fiction, it's any time a story is told, you know, like a store, some historical story is told, even it's a if it's a documentary, yeah, that captures because people, whether it's a community of people, whether it's a race of people, whatever group of people it is, it's not monolithic.

[13:28] Laura Camien: Within that group of people, there are going to be all sorts of different experiences happening.

[13:34] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[13:35] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[13:36] Laura Camien: We're not in the same boat, but we're in the same storm.

[13:39] Susan Blackwell: So when you talk about the Great Depression, or you talk about um, you know, other crises that happened, uh, you're right.

[13:46] Susan Blackwell: And that's probably why the history books just can't get into great detail.

[13:51] Susan Blackwell: If you're trying to learn about something in a in an overall and general sense, they can't get into the different variances between groups of people and what their daily experience was like.

[14:02] Susan Blackwell: And you know, it gets summed up in a sentence. And yes, but this is why, and we've talked about this before. I have difficulty learning history unless it has some sort of storytelling and emotion and visceral feeling attached to it.

[14:21] Laura Camien: You are not.

[14:21] Susan Blackwell: And the minute it has that, then I can wrap my mind around it.

[14:25] Laura Camien: Uh, you're not alone. And I think that's honestly, that's how I became interested in history was like viewing things um in the history channel, not to be like totally cliche, but watching things and seeing them truly come to life and uh not necessarily from textbooks, you know.

[14:44] Susan Blackwell: And my sweet niece who I love so much said to me the other day, and I think I told you like it nearly cracked my heart in two. But she was like, Oh, I hate history.

[14:56] Laura Camien: Oh sorry, excuse me, what?

[14:58] Susan Blackwell: What did you say? She's like, Oh, I hate history. And then I think she saw my face, she was like, I mean, I hate I my history class is not not great.

[15:07] Laura Camien: But I hear that was it Bailey who said that hi Bailey, we love the thing about that's I've I relate deeply to that because uh what I'm hearing Bailey say behind I hate history is I can't get inside of this the way that these stories are being shared.

[15:28] Susan Blackwell: I'm having a hard time getting inside of this.

[15:31] Laura Camien: That's right.

[15:31] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And I I think what pains me and I'm sure many other creative people is that could there be an easier subject to actually bring to life to tell stories and to do it in a variety of ways?

[15:46] Laura Camien: I can't imagine.

[15:47] Susan Blackwell: Like you can't do that with math, but you can do it with history, and so I just think it's almost criminal to be a history teacher and not really work to bring stories to life.

[15:59] Laura Camien: This is another spark for another day, but I will tell you, I've been having these conversations with my sister, who is a chemistry teacher in a STEAM school.

[16:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[16:09] Laura Camien: And so she's collaborating with her colleagues who teach fine arts and things like that to find ways to weave this learning together.

[16:19] Susan Blackwell: And she and I talk about with something like chemistry, how it is how storytelling is essential to teaching, to learning and to also conveying complex or slippery chemistry ideas to the layperson.

[16:36] Laura Camien: So I'm gonna say it is part of math and it's part of chemistry and it's part of all those things as well.

[16:42] Susan Blackwell: It is, but what I'm saying is like those teachers have to take that initiative because it currently isn't a requirement that it be taught that way.

[16:50] Laura Camien: But correct it will be way more efficient.

[16:53] Susan Blackwell: You know, what I'm saying is history is the easiest. I mean, it's like a no-brainer, you're gonna sit in a history class and not tell a story, uh, you know.

[17:01] Laura Camien: But for other subjects, I think the teachers have to show even more initiative and say, I want to cross-pollinate, you know, what we're trying to learn in chemistry with these other classes and disciplines.

[17:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. I envy people who can um t metabolize that information without having to have a story wrapped around it.

[17:23] Laura Camien: I envy them.

[17:24] Susan Blackwell: I am not one of those people.

[17:25] Laura Camien: You neither.

[17:27] Susan Blackwell: Me neither. I don't know if I wish I was or not, but I'm not one.

[17:31] Laura Camien: It just is what it is.

[17:32] Susan Blackwell: Um, maybe life is easier for them, or maybe not.

[17:36] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[17:37] Susan Blackwell: I feel like learning might be easier.

[17:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, there's a spark for it.

[17:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's a spark right there. Um, so here in 2020, I think I think about this on a daily basis, honestly, this long-term repercussions of everything of 2020 so far.

[17:55] Laura Camien: And I've talked to so many creative friends recently: filmmakers, writers, sculptors, painters, and I've asked, like, how are you feeling? How's everything going? What, if anything, are you creating?

[18:06] Susan Blackwell: And across the board, the answer has been zilch.

[18:12] Laura Camien: Nada.

[18:13] Susan Blackwell: They talk about being depleted of ideas or depleted of motivation.

[18:20] Laura Camien: And I gotta say, same.

[18:24] Susan Blackwell: Same.

[18:26] Laura Camien: Now, yeah, I know that there are a lot of people, maybe not a lot.

[18:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[18:31] Laura Camien: I can't quantify it. I know there are some people out there right now creating and making.

[18:37] Susan Blackwell: And to you, I say, we love it.

[18:41] Laura Camien: Keep going.

[18:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Please don't stop. If you've got the juice to run on, please keep running with it.

[18:47] Laura Camien: You can lead the charge for the rest of us.

[18:49] Susan Blackwell: But for many of us, I think these scary and strange and interesting and even sometimes encouraging times that we're living in are a roller coaster of emotions and mental and physical responses, personally.

[19:05] Laura Camien: Um I do think, thankfully, that we have more awareness on mental health and what we need as humans at this point in in history, as well as more research on what the effects of quarantines and civil rights movements and pandemics have on a population of people.

[19:22] Susan Blackwell: Maybe we don't have so many examples of all of them happening at the same time, but we do have some data and some basic understanding of the psychological toll.

[19:34] Laura Camien: According to an article in the LA Times, research suggests that people forced to live in quarantine conditions face a greater risk of anxiety, depression, anger, irritability, insomnia, and post-traumatic stress symptoms.

[19:49] Susan Blackwell: The longer a quarantine lasts, the worse its impact on psychological well-being.

[19:54] Laura Camien: And the authors found that the key stressors that lead to psychological distress include boredom, frustration, inadequate supplies, limited information, and financial loss, and that those effects can linger long after life returns to normal.

[20:12] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[20:13] Laura Camien: Yeah, yes.

[20:15] Susan Blackwell: So everywhere you look, you can read about this like extended period of stress from healthcare workers working overtime, trying to care for everyone, to other essential workers pulling overtime in grocery stores or production plants to keep up with demand, uh, delivery drivers putting themselves in danger, parents at home working and caring for their kids at the same time, or people being laid off and furloughed, worried about finances and when they'll be able to be employed.

[20:45] Laura Camien: And all of that is exhausting.

[20:49] Susan Blackwell: In addition to it, if you are an empathetic or sensitive person, even if all of those things are not happening to you personally, they are finding there's a very real thing called compassion fatigue that is affecting all of us.

[20:49] Laura Camien: Compassion fatigue.

[21:09] Susan Blackwell: According to an article on bustle.com, compassion fatigue is often defined as a general state of physical and mental exhaustion caused by continued exposure to other people's trauma.

[21:22] Laura Camien: It's often experienced by caregivers, aid workers, doctors, and others who deal with trauma on a daily basis.

[21:30] Susan Blackwell: Symptoms include feelings of hopelessness, insomnia, nightmares brought on by the stress associated with hearing or seeing distressing situations over and over.

[21:38] Laura Camien: I mean, does that not describe our news cycle?

[21:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It's one distressing situation over and over and over again.

[21:46] Laura Camien: And it's as though the media is trying to find the most unique distressing story that we haven't heard yet, you know.

[21:53] Susan Blackwell: So you might have heard of these people having stressful situations, but you haven't heard of these people.

[22:00] Laura Camien: And it also just makes me think of those.

[22:03] Susan Blackwell: Sorry to interrupt you.

[22:04] Laura Camien: It makes me think of those frontline healthcare workers.

[22:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes, who are just going through it, going through it.

[22:14] Laura Camien: Yes.

[22:15] Susan Blackwell: And all the people who know they're going through it, who are, you know, whether it's in New York at 7 p.m. trying to show appreciation, it's because everyone has them on their minds and are thinking about the trauma that they're going through.

[22:30] Laura Camien: And so not comparing those traumas, but still the person who's not going through the trauma but is having compassion fatigue is because, like in their mind, they're trying to live through what it might be like for the person who's actually living through it.

[22:48] Susan Blackwell: It's not a particularly helpful thing, but as compassionate people and empathetic people, we have to accept that we do deal with that.

[22:59] Laura Camien: And the more we allow those stories of distress into our lives, the more we're going to feel that as well.

[23:09] Susan Blackwell: And I don't say that like a bad thing because I do think empathy is crucial, and we need to be learning about each other's stories and listening and all of that.

[23:20] Laura Camien: But how can we do it in a way that isn't like bringing on this overload?

[23:24] Susan Blackwell: I hear you. And it's one of the reasons why I've talked about this before. Just like I am just very conscious of a little bit of a news diet.

[23:35] Laura Camien: Yes.

[23:38] Susan Blackwell: I was speaking with a fellow teaching artist yesterday, and they were talking about how they only read their news.

[23:44] Laura Camien: And that's one way that they can filter stuff out.

[23:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But having some sort of a smart filter in place so you're still informed, but not going into overwhelm or compassion fatigue.

[23:59] Laura Camien: That's right.

[24:00] Susan Blackwell: And trying to feel all the feelings for everyone at all times.

[24:05] Laura Camien: Right.

[24:07] Susan Blackwell: Another thing I learned about for all the people working from home or trying to keep up a social life from home, another new fatigue that has been identified is Zoom fatigue, which really applies to any of the screen-related interfaces like Google Hangouts, Skype, and FaceTime and House Party, et cetera.

[24:26] Laura Camien: An article in the National Geographic describes how difficult virtual interactions can be on the brain.

[24:33] Susan Blackwell: Because humans communicate even when they're quiet, during an in-person conversation, the brain focuses partly on the words being spoken, but it also derives additional meaning from dozens of nonverbal cues, such as whether someone is facing you or slightly turned away, if they're fidgeting while you talk, or if they inhale quickly in preparation to interrupt.

[24:58] Laura Camien: These cues help paint a holistic picture of what's being conveyed and what's expected in response from the listener.

[25:06] Susan Blackwell: And since humans evolved as social animals, perceiving these cues comes naturally to most of us.

[25:11] Laura Camien: It takes little conscious effort to parse and can lay the groundwork for emotional intimacy.

[25:17] Susan Blackwell: But since like a video call doesn't allow us to pick up those typical clues, but it doesn't keep our brain from looking for them.

[25:27] Laura Camien: So the whole time our brain is constantly searching.

[25:30] Susan Blackwell: Seeking.

[25:31] Laura Camien: Yes, it's it's active while wearing it.

[25:34] Susan Blackwell: It's like when your phone battery, when you're out of cell phone range and your phone keeps seeking cell phone range, so the battery drains really fast.

[25:41] Laura Camien: That's exactly right.

[25:42] Susan Blackwell: We are seeking, we are searching.

[25:44] Laura Camien: We're looking for these minute facial expressions and clues from other people that we cannot get through Zoom.

[25:52] Susan Blackwell: And when we get off the call, we're exhausted.

[26:07] Laura Camien: This one I think of as like the little just want to give you a little warning, and everyone's like, ugh, not another one.

[26:16] Susan Blackwell: The little boy who cried wolf, right?

[26:18] Laura Camien: This little little boy who cried wolf fatigue.

[26:21] Susan Blackwell: We've been cautioned so much about COVID 19 and the risks, we are literally tired of hearing about it.

[26:30] Laura Camien: According to Time magazine, that's right.

[26:33] Susan Blackwell: And probably at the time when when in many cases we need to hear about it most right now.

[26:38] Laura Camien: Um but according to Time Magazine, the phrase was coined by Jacqueline Golan from Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, based on her 15 years of research into depression, anxiety, and decision making.

[26:51] Susan Blackwell: Golan likens social distancing motivation to a battery.

[26:56] Laura Camien: When lockdowns were first announced, many people were charged with energy and the desire to flatten the curve.

[27:03] Susan Blackwell: Now, many weeks slash months into this shut shut in, shut down, um, the prolonged cocktail of stress, anxiety, isolation, and disrupted routines has left many people feeling drained.

[27:19] Laura Camien: And as motivation dips, people are growing more lax about social distancing guidelines.

[27:24] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[27:24] Laura Camien: And potentially putting themselves and others in harm's way.

[27:28] Susan Blackwell: Yep. I mean, I just think about that when you when you get so taught, like there's a law of like diminishing returns.

[27:37] Laura Camien: You can't take in any more warnings.

[27:40] Susan Blackwell: But I know that sometimes also I'll just be like, you know what? I just like to go to fill in the blank.

[27:48] Laura Camien: Now, some of these places aren't open in my state, but um I just think, what, you know, I'll just like what would be the harm?

[27:56] Susan Blackwell: Just like a little visit to fill in the blank.

[28:00] Laura Camien: And I almost have to remind myself, uh, because on some level I've shut down to the warnings.

[28:08] Susan Blackwell: That's right. I have to remind myself that we're still in it. We're still in it. You know what? I didn't put this in my spark, but this reminds me of something else in that article where they talk about like your brain gives more credence to your personal experience than it does to incoming information. So if your personal experience is, well, I haven't gotten sick yet, right? Like this entire time I'm doing this, I haven't gotten sick. So it's weighing the fact that you have not gotten sick against this like new warning that you have like caution fatigue from anyway. And it is trying to assess like what is the real danger. And a lot of times the brain will conclude unless we like really force it to take in that warning again. And like you said, remind yourself correctly with like what are what's the information that I know it hasn't actually changed since three months ago. And I still need to be as cautious as I was.

[29:14] Laura Camien: Yes. And I will say that because we weight and value our lived experience more than the information that comes externally. Friends of ours who have been sick are just like they're pulling their hair out because they're like, what are people thinking? What are they doing? Why would they be so reckless? Because they've lived through it. They've lived through the pain and the agony of being of having coronavirus. And so they're sort of that's right. So their lived experience, they're just like shaking their head, but everybody is sort of viewing it through the lens of their own lived experience.

[29:53] Susan Blackwell: It's so true. And it's really, really hard to get people to consider otherwise. And you could predict this. Um, you know, when we were like, oh, the shutdown. So if we shut down and actually succeed, you know there are going to be people who say, that was a good thing. That was a lot for nothing. Yeah. Except that it's like, no, it was that's that's exactly why we did it. And we succeeded. Success looks like nothing happening. That's what that's like something to cheer about.

[30:26] Laura Camien: So, Zeus, in medical news today, can you get a sense of the rabbit hole I went down? In medical news today, I learned about gas. That's right. Gas, G-A-S, general adaptation syndrome. And this one really resonated for me. It's been around forever, but I think what got me was the word adaptation. Because I think that's really all each of us are trying to do every day. We're just trying to adapt to the new circumstances of our life. But the change is happening so quickly that it's a constant adaptation to something new. I think that, you know, all in all, every one of us is dealing with a variety of high stress situations. And like we said just a minute ago, like we're not all in the same boat, but we are in the same storm.

So gas general adaptation syndrome is a three-stage process that our bodies go through when we're exposed to stress. And like I said, this was true before and has been around, but it's just all more heightened now. The three stages of gas are alarm reaction, resistance, followed by exhaustion.

[31:41] Susan Blackwell: An alarm reaction, yeah. I mean, I was like, oh my God, I totally see how this how I got to where I am now. But the alarm reaction stage is like, you know, this is the one we know about the distress signal is sent to the brain. Um, it triggers the release of adrenaline and cortisol, our heart rate goes up, our blood pressure goes up, our blood sugar levels go up. This is the well-documented like fight or flight or freeze reaction. But phase two then is resistance. And during the resistance stage, the body tries to counterbalance the alarm reaction and return the body to normal by reducing the amount of cortisol. But if the stressful situation, like if the stress comes to an end, the body will return to normal and it's fine.

But if it persists, but if it persists, the body will stay in a state of alert, the stress hormones will continue to be produced, and this can lead to a person like struggling to concentrate, becoming irritable, and then finally phase three, which is the exhaustion stage.

[32:49] Laura Camien: Again, according to medical news today, after an extended period of stress, the body goes into the final stage of gas known as exhaustion. And at this stage, the body has depleted its energy resources by continually trying but failing to recover from the initial alarm reaction. So this entire time, our bodies have been like working so hard to be like, can we? I'm trying to get back to normal. I'm trying to get back to normal, I'm trying to get back to normal. Only to be like, okay, I don't have any more resources to put towards getting back to normal. I'm just and again, that cell phone battery gets drained because it's right seeking normal. I'm seeking normal. I'm seeking normal. Can't find it.

[33:36] Susan Blackwell: I just want to say this is so fascinating to me. And when Emily Fletcher, my great meditation teacher, hi Emily. Hi Emily. When Emily teaches meditation, um, the language that she uses around like why do we meditate? We don't meditate to get good at meditation. We meditate so we can get good at life and living. Yes. But she talks about how those two meditations a day. So I do like 20 minutes in the morning when I wake up and 20 minutes before the evening meal at some point, is replenishing adaptation energy. That's the language that she uses.

[34:14] Laura Camien: Yes. Yeah. Susan. So I'm psyched that I have that practice in place because it's helping you. I have never needed it more to be able to combat what you're talking about here, where this general adaptation syndrome. I'm amazed there's a name for it.

[34:35] Susan Blackwell: There's a name for it. And and I mean, what's it is so interesting to me too that there is a name for it because you know it's something that we just kind of take for granted, but it is naming the physiological responses that your body has. So this isn't about you like needing to wake up with a better attitude. This is about like your body is going through this. Um, it's going through a chain reaction that, you know, unless you do things to try to decrease the stress level, it's going to do that because it's trying to take care of you. Um and meditation is one of those ways that you can disrupt and and give it some support and help. But if a person does not find ways to manage the stress levels at this stage, this is when you get more at risk of developing more long-term stress-related illnesses that could be um stomach ulcers, type two diabetes, depression, and ironically, a greater risk of viral infection.

[35:40] Laura Camien: So a virus like COVID-19, you'll be more susceptible. So on sharpbrains.com, they further explore this third state of exhaustion, saying if the stress-causing events continue, neurological exhaustion can set in. This phenomenon came to be referred to as burnout in our popular culture. It's a state of mind characterized by a loss of motivation or drive and a feeling that you're no longer effective in your work. And when this mental exhaustion sets in, we laugh because otherwise we'd cry. We recognize we laugh because we recognize. We recognize. And when this mental exhaustion sets in, a person feels emotionally flat, can become cynical, and may display a lack of responsiveness to the needs of others.

[36:31] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I think what I'm trying to say in my spark is that I feel all of it. I feel all of it. Like as I was doing this research, every single one of these fatigues and syndromes spoke to me.

[36:45] Laura Camien: You were like, I got all these fatigues.

[36:47] Susan Blackwell: I do. I have to do that. I collected the entire set.

[36:51] Laura Camien: You have to do I have fatigue fatigue.

[36:54] Susan Blackwell: I'm just I'm tired of being tired. I think everyone is, and I'm really craving the refilling of the pond. And I know why I was feeling this way. You know, and that was like comforting on some level to understand the why and understand what's happening in my body. That's comforting. But it also kept underlining something that I know, but I often neglect. And that is what I need to make of it. It's become clear to me that making space for self-care and stress reduction is not a good to have. It is a must have.

[38:23] Laura Camien: And this reminded me of our favorite poet, Ms. Mary Oliver, and her poem When I am Among the Trees. When I am among the trees, especially the willows and the honey locust, equally the beech and the oaks and the pines, they give off such hints of gladness. I would almost say they save me and daily. I am so distant from the hope of myself, in which I have goodness and discernment and never hurry through the world, but walk slowly and bow often. Around me, the trees stir in their leaves and call out, stay a while. The light flows from their branches. And they call again. It's simple, they say, and you two have come into the world to do this to go easy to be filled with light and to shine.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: So Suze, when I'm rested, I plan to do some writing. But at this moment, I think I am giving myself permission to restore and replenish and rejuvenate. I think it's mandatory.

[39:37] Laura Camien: I love it, Camille. What a beautiful spark. And it's gonna be a really good compliment to my spark.

[39:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[39:47] Laura Camien: I have lots of thoughts and lots of things to share.

[39:51] Susan Blackwell: Great.

[39:52] Laura Camien: I can't wait. First, I've got to pee before I pee in my pants.

[39:57] Susan Blackwell: Let's awesome.

[39:59] Laura Camien: Wow. What that is an amazing ride on the money, ride on time spark. My fatigue.

[40:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, your fatigue fatigue.

[40:09] Laura Camien: And I I just want to respond. I I see your spark, and I raise you this spark. Umces today include an article on Oprah.com and the work of a person named Elizabeth Lesser, a talk given by the aforementioned Emily Fletcher. Hi, Emily. On Zivameditation.com. There's a great self-care center on Zivameditation.com that I highly recommend. It's free. It's great. Check it out. And some thoughts that Cammian and I have developed in our own work. So Cammian, you're one of my spark sources today. Good job.

[40:51] Susan Blackwell: That's a first.

[40:52] Laura Camien: There you go. I'm really proud. So my wait till you hear what I have to say. JK, I think I'd be proud. My Sparks today is all about cycles, cycles of life, cycles of change, cycles of creativity. There are so many ways that cycles of life and change are represented in mythology and religion and creativity. And if you've taken a class with us, you know that we have our very own spark cycle, which is sort of the life cycle of creativity. Because little baby Cam and I realized after decades of participating in various creative projects in a variety of configurations and collaborations, that every little spark of an idea that reaches maturity seems to flow through this spark cycle of creativity. Creativity may not always flow in the order that I'm about to present to you, but there are essentially three phases of creativity that Laura and I have identified. One, generating sparks, two, fanning those sparks into flames, and three, sharing the light. So let me unpack that for you, some of you listeners.

[42:03] Susan Blackwell: This will be fresh.

[42:04] Laura Camien: You already know this.

[42:06] Susan Blackwell: You helped invent this.

[42:08] Laura Camien: You just have to sit back, relax, and enjoy.

[42:11] Susan Blackwell: If you have anything to add, please feel free. Um, so the first phase that I mentioned, generating sparks is a phase of cultivation.

[42:19] Susan Blackwell: In this phase, we are consciously generating ideas, we are listening, we are actively seeking, we are leaning into those things that fascinate us and inviting those things in.

[42:30] Susan Blackwell: I think this also includes daydreaming and meditating and cultivating a mindset of continual learning and curiosity.

[42:40] Susan Blackwell: Ideally, we want this to be a phase that you can access by choice, and that you keep spark generation active, not passive.

[42:50] Susan Blackwell: So you're not gonna be one of those people that's sort of like when the muse hits me every five years, then I sit down and I write a poem.

[42:59] Susan Blackwell: You're gonna be somebody who is sort of actively seeking spark generation in a curious forward-footed way.

[43:08] Susan Blackwell: Does that sound right, Cam? Did I get all that?

[43:10] Laura Camien: It sounds right, and I want to add something to it that I've not said before, but I think our whole Cam about it.

[43:17] Laura Camien: But I've just noticed how fun it is.

[43:20] Laura Camien: Like when you have a backpack full of sparks and you're in conversation with people, and you can just, you know, reach back and grab a few and get literally give them freely.

[43:33] Laura Camien: It's like the free exchange of ideas. It feels so good that someone was like, Really? Can I? And I'm like, Yes, you do it. I'm not that's just in my backpack right now. I'm not doing it.

[43:42] Laura Camien: You know, like it's such a gift, and I think that if we all creatively were more open to just sharing the ideas, the ones you're not using right now, the ones you don't plan to use anytime soon.

[43:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[43:56] Laura Camien: Let them free.

[43:57] Susan Blackwell: Let them free.

[43:58] Laura Camien: I love that.

[43:59] Susan Blackwell: And I think you're right. I think it is the foundation of this whole podcast.

[44:02] Susan Blackwell: And I'm proud of that. And as long as the conversational turn taking is balanced, it makes you a great cocktail party guest because you've got tons of sparks to share.

[44:13] Laura Camien: So good.

[44:13] Susan Blackwell: And you never know what they're gonna say to you in return that can spark something else, you know, that you're like, oh great, I'll take that one.

[44:21] Laura Camien: That's right. Great.

[44:22] Susan Blackwell: So the next phase is fanning the flames.

[44:26] Susan Blackwell: This phase is all about creation. It's where the idea goes from a spark and it gets fanned into that creative flame.

[44:33] Susan Blackwell: It's where the real making occurs, it's creating something in a space where nothing existed before.

[44:40] Susan Blackwell: So it's taking that little baby spark of inspiration and it's making it a creative reality.

[44:45] Laura Camien: Anything to add to that, Susan?

[44:48] Laura Camien: I just like to underline something, like that making something where there was nothing before.

[44:54] Laura Camien: I mean, what feels better than that? I don't know.

[44:58] Laura Camien: I just like I always love when we talk about that, because to me, that really is creation.

[45:02] Laura Camien: Like you set your script down on the table and you're like, here is a scrap, here's a screenplay.

[45:07] Laura Camien: This didn't exist before. These words and this combination, never in the history of the world has this ever existed before.

[45:15] Laura Camien: Um, and I don't know, I just think there's something so powerful and so exciting about that creation phase, making it happen.

[45:23] Susan Blackwell: I love that. Love that.

[45:25] Susan Blackwell: So then we flow into sharing the light.

[45:28] Susan Blackwell: This phase is all about communication and sharing out, and this may look like sharing an idea, a little spark of an idea that you have, or literally sharing what you've made.

[45:38] Susan Blackwell: So it could be anything from a pitch for a TV pilot to the actual airing of the TV show to a dance piece, to a piece of woodwork or a recipe you've created and posted on your blog.

[45:52] Susan Blackwell: That's all sharing the light.

[45:54] Laura Camien: Anything else about that, Susan?

[45:57] Laura Camien: I think just that people can make an entire career out of sharing the light if you get good at pitching ideas.

[46:04] Laura Camien: Some people don't ever make them, but they know how to sell an idea and do that over and over and over again.

[46:12] Laura Camien: And I think I might be mistaken. Listeners, correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes that can create an imbalance where if you're just sharing, having sparks of ideas, developing them and sharing the light without ever fully getting to see them realized, that imbalance can cause problems for people over time because it can be really, really unsatisfying.

[46:35] Susan Blackwell: Something we do like to say as well is you can share your work or not share your work.

[46:41] Susan Blackwell: That really is up to you.

[46:43] Susan Blackwell: But if you do or if you don't, we would just love for you to check in with yourself and make sure that it's born out of choice and not out of fear.

[46:50] Laura Camien: So that's another little piece of that.

[46:52] Laura Camien: Um I think I speak for both of us when I say we also feel that the stronger we've gotten in each of these areas and the more balance there is amongst these mindsets or phases, the more rich and satisfying and sustainable our creative lives have become.

[47:16] Laura Camien: So you might be, for instance, a seasoned maker, but you're depleted when it comes to fresh ideas.

[47:23] Laura Camien: Or maybe you have a million ideas, but you don't know how to make them reality.

[47:27] Laura Camien: Or maybe you're great at making things, but not great about sharing those things or communicating your work out to others.

[47:33] Laura Camien: Or like you were just saying, Cammy, and maybe you're great at talking about what you want to make or pitching, but you're not actually making it.

[47:40] Laura Camien: So that imbalance can occur.

[47:43] Laura Camien: We do believe that having a satisfying creative life often means having the ability to move fluidly between these phases or to be in all of these phases at any given time.

[47:54] Laura Camien: But ideally, we're aiming for some sort of a balance, just some sort of a balance amongst these phases.

[48:01] Susan Blackwell: So that's the spark cycle of creativity.

[48:04] Laura Camien: But there are so good job, Camille.

[48:06] Susan Blackwell: Good job, Susan.

[48:07] Laura Camien: That was genius.

[48:08] Susan Blackwell: Thanks and thank you.

[48:10] Laura Camien: But there are so many different types of frameworks and structures and myths and stories that attempt to capture various types of cycles that show up in our lives.

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: So I found this very interesting piece by a woman named Elizabeth Lesser.

[48:26] Susan Blackwell: And she talks about how the transformational journey is a voyage with a hundred different names.

[48:33] Susan Blackwell: It's sometimes called the Odyssey, the Grail Quest, the Great Initiation, the Death and Rebirth Process, the Supreme Battle, the Dark Knight of the Soul, the Hero's Journey.

[48:45] Susan Blackwell: All of these are names that describe the process of surrendering to a time of great difficulty, allowing the pain to break us open, and then being reborn, reborn stronger and wiser and kinder.

[48:58] Susan Blackwell: So it's about transformation, it's about up-leveling, it's about evolution.

[49:03] Susan Blackwell: I've heard my meditation teacher Emily Fletcher, hi Emily, talk about that really should be a drinking game.

[49:09] Susan Blackwell: Talk about the cycles of creation, maintenance, and destruction.

[49:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:16] Susan Blackwell: And these are cycles, creation, maintenance, and destruction that are presented in the Vedas.

[49:21] Susan Blackwell: And if you don't know, the Vedas are an ancient body of knowledge that is the foundation for things like acupuncture and Feng Shui and Ayurveda.

[49:30] Susan Blackwell: Veda, the word Veda means knowledge, and specifically it's referring to the knowledge of nature.

[49:36] Susan Blackwell: The Vedas are human interpretation of natural law.

[49:40] Laura Camien: And if you're a student of the Vedas, it's all about getting in alignment with the flow of nature.

[49:45] Susan Blackwell: That's why that Mary Oliver poem, I was like, yes, Laura Camille.

[49:48] Susan Blackwell: Get in alignment with the flow of nature.

[49:51] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:51] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[49:52] Laura Camien: Get up in it with those trees.

[49:54] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[49:54] Laura Camien: As opposed to rigidly working against nature's flow.

[49:58] Susan Blackwell: And as a result, having nature pummel you against the rocks.

[50:03] Laura Camien: Right.

[50:04] Susan Blackwell: So I feel like sometimes when you were speaking, Cammy, about like uh zoom fatigue and you know, we're all many of us are working so hard, and we might the sun has set and our eyes are still on a screen.

[50:19] Susan Blackwell: And it's fucking with our sleep.

[50:21] Laura Camien: And you know, that's just one of many, many, many examples.

[50:25] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[50:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:26] Susan Blackwell: So I think your instinct to like be could go commune with the trees and commune with nature is a siren song that is beckoning you not to destroy you on the rocks, but to get you back in alignment with your natural flow and your natural rhythms.

[50:46] Laura Camien: I feel like I need to study the Vedas.

[50:48] Susan Blackwell: I don't know, being a good idea.

[50:49] Laura Camien: Girls.

[50:50] Susan Blackwell: You know you can.

[50:51] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:52] Susan Blackwell: I think you would love it.

[50:53] Susan Blackwell: And I think Emily Fletcher may be a great teacher for you.

[50:56] Laura Camien: So there's a thought for you.

[50:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, in the Vedas, they talk about again those cycles of creation, maintenance, and destruction.

[51:03] Susan Blackwell: And we see this represented in mythology and religion, of course.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: In Indian mythology, the universe was created by Brahma, preserved by Vishnu, and destroyed by Shiva in preparation for the next creation.

[51:18] Susan Blackwell: So these three gods or three forms, or whatever you want to call them, acting as one are called trimurti, and they were all they are all equal and they keep balance.

[51:30] Laura Camien: They keep that balance.

[51:33] Susan Blackwell: But it seems like every religion includes stories of descent and rebirth, like Jonah from the whale, Jesus' death and resurrection, Siddhartha leaving the castle in order to become the Buddha.

[51:45] Laura Camien: We have many, many versions of this hero's journey and of the cycles of life, change, and creativity.

[51:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[51:53] Laura Camien: So in her article, Elizabeth Lesser recounts a conversation between Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell, who was a great interpreter of myths.

[52:02] Susan Blackwell: If you haven't seen The Power of Myth or read Joseph Campbell's work, you are in for oh my gosh, like a forest fen treasure trove of sparks.

[52:14] Susan Blackwell: In 1988, the journalist Bill Moyers sat down with Joseph Campbell and they did this whole series of interviews.

[52:20] Susan Blackwell: And I'm telling you, Camille, those interviews are jam-packed with sparks.

[52:26] Laura Camien: That series called The Power of Myth is one of the most popular TV series in the history of public television.

[52:32] Susan Blackwell: It is so good.

[52:34] Laura Camien: It is so rich.

[52:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[52:35] Laura Camien: But in those interviews, Campbell talked about the hero's journey.

[52:40] Susan Blackwell: And Joseph Campbell said, a legendary hero is usually the founder of something, the founder of a new age, the founder of a new religion, the founder of a new city, the founder of a new way of life.

[52:52] Laura Camien: Which sounds to me like a creative.

[52:54] Susan Blackwell: They are creating some big new things.

[52:57] Laura Camien: They made something.

[52:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[52:58] Laura Camien: They made something.

[52:59] Susan Blackwell: And in response, Bill Moyer says to Joseph Campbell, but doesn't this leave all the rest of us ordinary mortals back on shore?

[53:08] Joseph Campbell: I don't think there is any such thing as an ordinary mortal.

[53:14] Joseph Campbell: I always feel uncomfortable when people speak about ordinary mortals because I've never met an ordinary man, woman, or child.

[53:23] Joseph Campbell: You might say that the founder of a life, your life or mine, if we live our own lives instead of imitating everybody else's life, comes from a quest as well.

[53:34] Laura Camien: Yes.

[53:35] Susan Blackwell: So what I think Joseph Campbell is saying is that while legendary stories may have heroes like the Knights of King Arthur searching for the holy grail, these legendary figures are acting as proxies.

[53:47] Susan Blackwell: They're like storytelling proxies for each of us on our own hero's journey to seek and grow and change, whatever form that may take.

[53:56] Laura Camien: That's right.

[53:56] Susan Blackwell: And if you're consciously creating your own path, choosing how you want to build your own life, you are living a version of the hero's journey.

[54:05] Susan Blackwell: You are the hero.

[54:18] Laura Camien: Certainly, we are all processing rapid change.

[54:22] Susan Blackwell: Cam's roll clip on your spark.

[54:25] Laura Camien: We are all processing rapid change in this rapidly changing world.

[54:29] Susan Blackwell: And old systems are changing and breaking down.

[54:33] Susan Blackwell: There is a spotlight being shown on systemic racism, unlike anything I have ever seen in my lifetime.

[54:40] Laura Camien: And when I talk to my parents, they're like, and they live through the 60s and they're like, this is this is unlike anything we've ever seen as well.

[54:49] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[54:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[54:51] Susan Blackwell: And on one hand, I'm so excited by that change.

[54:54] Susan Blackwell: And on the other hand, as I grapple with my own biases and privilege and bear out my own racism, like deep, deep, deeply embedded racism and privilege.

[55:05] Susan Blackwell: As I come to terms with that, that transformation becomes very real and it's very painful and sometimes very shameful.

[55:13] Laura Camien: And that's just one example of how we as individuals and we as a collective are changing and transforming right now.

[55:23] Susan Blackwell: So in that talk that Emily Fletcher gave recently, she said, right now we are in a time of destruction.

[55:31] Susan Blackwell: Our economy is changing, some industries are being destroyed, global systems are being destroyed, our illusion of control is being destroyed.

[55:41] Susan Blackwell: Our control was always an illusion, but it's scary to wake up to that understanding.

[55:46] Laura Camien: Emily's getting fucking deep over there, but it's true.

[55:49] Susan Blackwell: And she said, we will be changed on the other side of this.

[55:53] Susan Blackwell: There is no question of that.

[55:55] Susan Blackwell: But how will we be changed?

[55:58] Susan Blackwell: Are we going to allow this to be a collective trauma?

[56:01] Susan Blackwell: Or are we going to allow this collective experience to lead us to a mass awakening? Do we linger in the destruction? Or do we instigate and celebrate the creativity that is coming? So I think we have a choice.

[56:17] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's something that I've touched on in prior Sparks, but we have a choice as to which way we're going to head. And I want to be proactive in my choice about how I want to process this and how I want to navigate all of this stuff that's coming, you know, down the pile.

[56:35] Susan Blackwell: I feel thematically like we both have had sparks that were about like proactively choosing and not just letting it be decided for us. So this like feels really like a really powerful culmination of those conversations. Like it's just become this is really crystallizing it for me, I guess. This is amazing is an amazing spark. Amazing.

[57:01] Laura Camien: Good. Thanks. So Emily in her talk echoed something I've believed for a long time, which is there is no way around but through. Meaning some have been trying for decades or generations to avoid pain. But there is no way around but through. This is a time, I believe, I'll just speak for myself when I want to be leaning in and I want to be addressing like surrendering to some of those things and really investigating them and learning from them.

[57:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I'm interested in leaning into that pain and in leaning into that change in order to make way for that transformation. When Cammy and I teach about creativity, we teach people an approach to leaning into visceral feelings. And Cam's, I will tell you, I have spent so much time thinking about this and practicing this leaning in. And yet, I have to admit, I still struggle. When it comes time to lean into new, deeper discomforts, I brace against it. But again, if ever there was a time to lean in, it's now.

[58:16] Laura Camien: So yeah. The following is um a writing that's adapted from a book called Broken Open, How Difficult Times Can Help Us Grow. And again, this is by Elizabeth Lesser. Um, I'm just gonna straight up, Cam's. I'm gonna straight up read pieces of this article that Elizabeth Lesser wrote. I know we don't typically do that, but I feel like her words are right on the money. And if this speaks to you and you want to learn more, again, her book is called Broken Open. Her last name is spelled L E S S E R. So look it up if this speaks to you.

[58:53] Susan Blackwell: Elizabeth Lesser says, I have my own name for the quest. I call it the Phoenix process in honor of the mythic bird with golden plumage whose story has been told throughout the ages. The Egyptians called the bird the phoenix and believed that every 500 years, the phoenix bird renewed his quest for his true self, knowing that a new way could only be found with the death of his worn-out habits, defenses, and beliefs. The Phoenix built a pyre of cinnamon and myrrh. I'm sure that smelled delicious, sat down in the flames and burned to death. Then he rose from the ashes as a new being, a strange amalgam of who he had been before and who he had become. A new bird, yet ever more himself, changed and at the same time the eternal phoenix.

[59:46] Laura Camien: So again, I love these cycles, these sort of mythic cycles of, you know, whether it is creativity, maintenance, and destruction, or whether it's the phoenix passing through its life cycle, whether it's the spark cycle. Like I'm feeling these cycles as a way to organize our thinking and also know that some of these things that we wrestle with, people have been wrestling with them since time immemorial. And we don't, it's not, we don't have to reinvent the cycle. We can, you know, we can walk in the footsteps of people that have come before us.

[1:00:26] Susan Blackwell: I'm loving that like there are scientific names for the things, and there are mythical names, legendary names for the things. And they both point to we're not alone. None of us is alone going through this. Like these transformations have been made by people before us and our ancestors and our neighbors.

[1:00:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:00:54] Susan Blackwell: And we can learn from some of the skills that they arrived at. We don't have to, again, it feels like we're the only person that's ever lived through this and we're going through it for the first time, but we're not. So let's um let's see what knowledge we can borrow from these people that went before us. Uh, I also just want to pause and say, I love the Phoenix myth. I love how it's represented so beautifully. J.K. Rowling, I know that you're you're there, you're going through some learning yourself right now, but I love how it's represented in Harry Potter with Foxx the Phoenix. Cams, were you did you ever take a dip into Harry Potter? Was that your jam or no?

[1:01:36] Laura Camien: I I did. I watched all of them and I read them with um Bailey when she was growing up. We did a little book called. Hi, Bailey! Thank you. Bailey.

[1:01:46] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I love that I love that you read those with her. But I love Fox the Phoenix in the Harry Potter books and in the movies. And according to the Harry Potter fan wiki, Foxx was a highly intelligent Phoenix and Albus Dumbledore's animal companion and defender. Foxx's tears, which possessed healing properties, saved Harry Potter's life after his arm was punctured by the basilisk's fangs. Hey, spoiler alerts. And um it also came to Dumbledore's aid in fighting Lord Voldemort during one of their battles.

[1:02:21] Laura Camien: But one Foxx scene that I especially loved is summarized in the Harry Potter fan wiki, which I'd like to read. Whilst in Albus Dumbledore's office for the first time, Harry Potter encountered Foules on his burning day. Foules appeared very ill, decrepit, and baleful, and much to Harry's initial shock and horror, burst into flames in front of his eyes. When Dumbledore entered, Harry explained to Dumbledore what had just happened to his bird. But Dumbledore calmly explained to Harry that Foxx was a Phoenix and thus was a mortal, and that he had been looking dreadful for days. Dumbledore explained to Harry the various potent magical powers of the Phoenix, and they both watched him rebirth from his ashes.

[1:03:06] Susan Blackwell: I love that scene in the books, I love the scene in the movies, I love the very idea of it that Harry's freaking out because he's like, Holy shit, that bird just burst into flames. Did I break the bird? Like it's such a great moment. Right. And then Dumbledore comes in and calmly says, Oh no, he'd been, you know, he'd been looking dreadful for days. And this is his burning day. This is just a natural part of Fox's progression. And I just love the way she sort of wove that piece of mythology into this, you know, into this story.

[1:03:41] Laura Camien: Definitely.

[1:03:42] Susan Blackwell: So back to Elizabeth Lesser. Um, according to Elizabeth Lesser, we are all the Phoenix. And again, I'm just gonna read straight from her work. Our lives ask us to die and to be reborn every time we confront change, change within ourselves and change in the world. When we descend all the way down to the bottom of loss and dwell patiently with an open heart in the darkness and pain, we can bring back up with us the sweetness of life and the exhilaration of inner growth. When there is nothing left to lose, we find the true self, the self that is whole, the self that is enough, the self that no longer looks to others for definition or completion or anything but companionship on the journey.

[1:04:29] Laura Camien: I I love it, and I have to tell you, when I have in the past fuck, 24 hours, 48 hours, week, month, like when I get scared of confronting something, something, a hard truth about myself, um, a conflict with another person. When I read that, I'm sort of like, I can do this. It makes me braver because I think I can do this. Like I can take that pain and it will be tolerable for a finite amount of time, and I can I can be reborn.

[1:05:10] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's so it's so true that it isn't going to kill you. And we talked about this way back in that um my friend fear spark. Um, and obviously there are things that we fear that can kill us, but the fear itself and that um discomfort. Discomfort isn't going to kill you. It's just going to feel uncomfortable.

[1:05:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:05:33] Susan Blackwell: It's just going to feel uncomfortable. I have another spark for another day, but I will, I just want to share a piece of it now, which is getting out of the habit of saying bad feelings or negative feelings, and getting into the habit of saying uncomfortable feelings instead.

[1:05:52] Laura Camien: I like that.

[1:05:53] Susan Blackwell: I like that. Yeah, that's been helpful. So I want to share the steps of this Phoenix process. Um, Elizabeth Lesser says the Phoenix process is a journey that is different for everyone. Therefore, ultimately, it is a trek into uncharted territory. It's not helpful to compare one person's journey to another's. All are different, and one is not more profound or important than the other. Very painful situations, the loss of a loved one, a serious illness, a national tragedy have the power to transform one's life. But so do less traumatic events. It's all in the way we approach the changing nature of life. It's all in the courage to say yes to whatever comes our way. It's in the way we listen for messages in the flames and dig for treasure in the ashes, which reminds me very much of our let me try that again process. Like that reminds me very much of that.

[1:06:48] Laura Camien: So these are Elizabeth Lesser's guidelines for the Phoenix process. Number one, change is the nature of life, and nothing changes without loss, which is a form of death. Loss and change, death and rebirth, these are natural, necessary cycles that no one can avoid or escape. Pretending otherwise is exhausting and a huge waste of time to resist change, loss, or death is to say no to life.

[1:07:16] Susan Blackwell: So that goes back to the Vedas and knowing that destruction is a part of the process.

[1:07:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:07:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yeah. And yeah, and to try to run from that, to try to prevent that is kind of a waste of time.

[1:07:35] Laura Camien: It's kind of you're fighting against nature.

[1:07:37] Susan Blackwell: It's a rest of the thing. You're bashing yourself against the rocks.

[1:07:40] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:07:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That's right. So number two, it's not easy to participate consciously with change, loss, or death. More often than not, we would like to stay asleep to the whole subject. It hurts to lose and to change. It causes us grief, but grief is not a sign of anything being wrong, nor is it a sign of weakness. In fact, grief in the face of loss lubricates the wheels of change.

[1:08:08] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:08:09] Susan Blackwell: When we turn towards what is changing, when we keep our hearts open and allow ourselves to feel a loss all the way through, we move with more grace into a new energetic and constructive phase of life. That to me is talking about like leaning into the pain of that phase of destruction and just feeling it fully. It's not gonna be infinite. It's going to be finite. Sometimes I think people feel like it's going to go on forever and ever, or it's just going to put them in overwhelm. But to lean into it and let it move through us like a storm moves through and then moves on. And then it prepares us for the next phase, which is if we learned anything from the Vedas, creation.

[1:08:54] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:08:55] Susan Blackwell: It's emotion. Keeping it in motion, like motion. Keep it. I learned that from you, Laura Camille. It's going to just roll right through you rather than resisting and persisting.

[1:09:06] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:09:07] Susan Blackwell: So here's Elizabeth Lesser's third guideline. We can transform loss into growth, change into insight, and suffering into joy if we turn and face what frightens us most about ourselves and our changing circumstances. But this takes courage. We may find aspects of our personality that need altering. We may find parts of our lives that can no longer remain the same. We may have to upset old family patterns. I'll add systemic racism in our country.

[1:09:34] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:09:34] Susan Blackwell: We may have to adjust to different ways of thinking. We may have to let go of habits. Part of the Phoenix process is asking for help, learning new ways of doing things and seeking inspiration. We may need help to learn how to take the suffering deep inside and to make the process an interior one.

[1:10:01] Susan Blackwell: I think that's Elizabeth Lesser's way of saying this sometimes this work is an inside job. And you have to, you know, you may need some help to do that work, but it is work that you need to do inside of yourself.

[1:10:14] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[1:10:14] Susan Blackwell: But as long as we blame others, another person, an institution, a relationship for our faltering lives, there is little chance of transformation, little hope that we will be reborn as the powerful self that we really are.

[1:10:28] Laura Camien: That's the truth.

[1:10:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It's uh I feel like all of this, like this big transformational work that is afoot right now. We have got, if we hope to see that change happen and get to move from destruction into creativity, we have got to be willing to do the work. We have got to start with ourselves and we have got to do the work.

[1:10:52] Laura Camien: Now back to Emily Fletcher and the Vedas.

[1:10:54] Susan Blackwell: Emily said, according to the Vedas, Cams, this one goes out to you.

[1:11:00] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:11:00] Susan Blackwell: This goes out to you and to the spark that you just shared. According to the Vedas, there is no such thing as good or bad. There is no such thing as right or wrong. There is just creation, maintenance, and destruction.

[1:11:14] Laura Camien: And Emily proposes a thought experiment.

[1:11:16] Susan Blackwell: What if we what if instead of like good or bad, what if there's only creation, maintenance, and destruction? Like Shakespeare said in Hamlet, nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. So it's just a little thought experiment. Like, what if when you were talking about Cammy and your fatigue fatigue?

[1:11:36] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:11:37] Susan Blackwell: And your need to prioritize self-care, which I think if you're saying yes to self-care, you may have to say no to other things.

[1:11:44] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:11:45] Susan Blackwell: Well what if that is just so? What if that is not good or bad? What if that is not a judgment on you? What if that's not a judgment on your productivity or your creativity? That it's just, it just is what it is.

[1:11:58] Laura Camien: I feel that. Like I was waiting for, I was like, well, now wait, how did that relate to my spark? Um because I do feel that it is what it is, but you know, naming it and accepting it, name it to tame it. And so I'm okay with saying it's neither here nor there. We I am fatigued. I'll say it. I think many people are, and it's okay to say what I need next is replenishment.

[1:12:25] Susan Blackwell: I'll tell you, maybe I'm projecting onto you when I think about destruction being a necessary part of the cycle of life or creativity, I'm sort of like, oh no. Oh no. Like uh oh, I don't know.

[1:12:43] Laura Camien: And do you do you feel like fatigue is the destruction part?

[1:12:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Uh I think fatigue can be the result of the maintenance part.

[1:12:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:12:53] Susan Blackwell: Like I if you've been in maintenance for a long time.

[1:12:56] Laura Camien: Yes, and now we need to rebuild.

[1:12:57] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes, so to that point, to that point, um, Emily says, one way that humans seem to muck it up is this. We create, this is this is what I'm trying to say. We create, we like what we create, and then we want to try to hold on to it. But if we stop creating and innovating, that just puts us in maintenance and we can get stuck in maintenance.

[1:13:22] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:13:23] Susan Blackwell: And she uses this metaphor stagnant waters breed disease. So there are global systems that are no longer relevant right now, and nature is coming through with destruction.

[1:13:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:13:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes. So if we linger too long in that maintenance place, then destruction is naturally hot on its heels, and creation goes to the back burner. Or on a personal level, if we try to cling desperately to how things were without some releasing and being flexible to the idea that we can rebuild it in a new way. You can keep some of the things you loved about your life before, but it is changing, like it or not.

[1:14:04] Laura Camien: Um so trying to hold on to it, I think can be more painful and um, you know, less less helpful in the in the recreating. Like I think what Elizabeth Lesser is saying, it's it's saying no to life, it's saying it's saying no to the natural cycle of life and the natural cycle that nature wants to flow through.

[1:14:26] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Um, according to Emily, if you lead with maintenance, she said you're essentially waving the flag of irrelevancy and saying, Hey, nature, over here, bring on the destruction, clean house, clean house.

[1:14:40] Laura Camien: Oh, and then destruction has to arrive to make way for creation because nature's gonna keep on flowing.

[1:14:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh. According to Emily, if we lead with creation, we start to get more support, more of nature's support. We get in that flow state, synchronicity shows up, ease shows up, fresh ideas show up, sparks show up. And as many of us know, when we're not in flow state, everything does feel harder.

[1:15:09] Laura Camien: But I think it's really important to remember that maintenance, yes, creation, creation, I mean, we love creation. We started a whole podcast around it.

[1:15:19] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:15:19] Laura Camien: But maintenance and destruction are natural and necessary parts of the cycle. So recognizing what season you're in and remaining in flow, not getting stuck in any part of the cycle because you fear the pain associated with change and transformation. I think that's the key.

[1:15:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the key. Not getting stuck in any part of the cycle, or to frame it constructively, remaining in flow throughout the cycle. I think that's what I feel like when in terms of like being fatigued, I'm not wanting to get stuck here. I don't want to live indefinitely in fatigue. I want to rest and restore and replenish and rejuvenate and then on to the next. You know what I mean? Like recognize it as a natural um next step in the process.

[1:16:13] Laura Camien: Uh to not get stuck here in this like yes, stress and fatigue moment.

[1:16:18] Susan Blackwell: One million percent. And I'll speak for myself when I I think it's fun to be the big old phoenix, like in full glory with your resplendent plumage.

[1:16:29] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:16:30] Susan Blackwell: But I have to also be willing to live and work through the other phases in the process: the burning up, the time in the ashes, the resting, the rebirth, the reinvention, that's right, fresh creation. That phoenix has to be willing to like everyone, even sees it burn up. Everyone, it's like in plain sight of everyone. Like, yes, and I'm out, you know.

[1:16:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, but I will be back.

[1:16:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I will be back.

[1:16:59] Laura Camien: That's interesting.

[1:17:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So we were talking with the writer, Michael R. Jackson last week, and he described this time as a time of hibernation. To me, personally, it feels a little more active than that. Yes, there is an element of required rest, but I also think it's a time of a lot of listening and learning and investigation. Old paradigms are being destroyed to make way for new creations on a larger societal level, but also on a personal level. Even with this project, the Sparks File podcast and Cammy, that's all I wrote. My paved road turned into a gravel road, turned into a grass path.

[1:17:47] Laura Camien: And led to some trees.

[1:17:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Suze, I think that's actually perfect that that's um where the trail led because I think that, you know, you and I are both feeling like the time and the moment to take a breather and to uh refill our fish pond is now. We're concluding this season.

[1:18:15] Laura Camien: Season one.

[1:18:17] Susan Blackwell: This amazing first season. This is the completion of season one.

[1:18:21] Laura Camien: So first I want to say congratulations.

[1:18:23] Susan Blackwell: Congratulations, Seuss. We're gonna be using this time to refill our Sparks files and do a lot of listening and learning and hopefully making some space for other voices. We feel like uh we ourselves have a lot of studying to do in terms of some of the social change that is happening in the world, and we want to make room for other voices to rise to the surface in any way that we can. And we can't be of service to anyone if we are depleted.

[1:18:55] Laura Camien: And we very much want to be of service.

[1:18:58] Susan Blackwell: We very much want this podcast to remain a place where people can come to get creative ideas, to get inspiration and run with it and take it and make it. And if we're feeling like we're at the bottom of our well, we need to refill it so we can uh keep giving back. And we have so many things that we're working on, and so many things that we're studying on, and so many things that we're we want to build for the future. Um we're scheming for season two.

[1:19:29] Laura Camien: We're scheming, but this will give us some um real necessary time and space so that we can you know, we talk the talk, but we've got to walk the walk. We've got to make time to do that work.

[1:19:45] Susan Blackwell: Yep, we do.

[1:19:46] Laura Camien: Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. But I'm also looking forward to staying in touch with um all of our listeners. You know, we will be on social media from time to time. You know, we're not gonna disappear. Uh, we would love to hear what you're doing, uh, what you're making, how you're resting or replenishing your own lives. Uh, we want to know all of that. If you have sparks for us, if you want to replenish us, please feel free.

[1:20:14] Susan Blackwell: I am so proud of us for a rocking season one. Amazing 89 episodes. That's a pretty good season one. We're off to a good start.

[1:20:23] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'm super proud of us.

[1:20:25] Susan Blackwell: I am super excited about resting. Like super duper excited about resting. I am really excited after a little bit of rest to do all of the work that we um, all of the plotting and scheming and the boots on the ground work that we want to do in preparation for not just season two, but all sorts of other exciting spark file creativity. The spark file world is going to grow and we're super excited about that. So we'll be a little quiet for a while, but know that we are busy, busy busy, um, creating more fun things for you all to enjoy in the future.

[1:21:11] Laura Camien: So, Cammy, is there anything else we want to say? Did we say it all?

[1:21:16] Susan Blackwell: I think we said it all.

[1:21:17] Laura Camien: I love you.

[1:21:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm super proud of us so much. I celebrate us. We love our listeners. We celebrate you. We're quiet, but it doesn't mean we're gone. So just because we're quiet doesn't mean we're absent. We're just here working. You can still reach us. We love hearing from you. So we hope you will. We hope this put another bunch of sparks in your spark file.

[1:21:43] Laura Camien: Um, should we take it home?

[1:21:45] Susan Blackwell: Let's take it on home.

[1:21:47] Laura Camien: Okay. Um, as Cammy and said, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore in season two, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, you know we'd love to celebrate you. And you can email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com, which Cammy and you know I'm going to revamp on our break. You know that's one of the things I have to do on the loop on.

[1:22:11] Susan Blackwell: That's all we're doing. I'm so excited about that. Um, you also know that we will we will happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:22:24] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:22:24] Susan Blackwell: And you can follow us on social at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. If you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people you love. There are so many episodes that are already in the bank that you can share. Good news, you get a break from us until September.

[1:22:48] Laura Camien: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. We've got to listen and learn and let our Phoenix burn. We're gonna gather sparks and fill our hearts, and in September, we'll return. And in the meantime, you gotta take it and make it make it.

[1:23:22] Susan Blackwell: We love you.

[1:23:23] Laura Camien: We love you.

[1:23:24] Susan Blackwell: If you can hear the sounds of our voices, we love you.

[1:23:28] Laura Camien: And I love you, Cam.

[1:23:29] Susan Blackwell: I love you too, Blackwell.

[1:23:31] Laura Camien: When I bumped into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:23:39] Susan Blackwell: Spark could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:23:49] Laura Camien: Sparkfile I'll jump into my spark files.

[1:23:55] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark files.