This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Laura Camien: Hey everybody, this episode of The Spark File was recorded right before Wordle was purchased by the New York Times.

[0:07] Susan Blackwell: But don't worry, there's still lots to learn from this little game that could enjoy the show.

[0:07] Laura Camien: The Sparks File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:17] Susan Blackwell: Please use your discretion.

[0:23] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:31] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I want to be.

[0:36] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark.

[0:41] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks.

[0:45] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:50] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:57] Laura Camien: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life, baby.

[1:06] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Sparks File community, well, welcome back, Sparkler.

[1:12] Susan Blackwell: Well, well, well, if you're joining us for the first time, hi, welcome, friend.

[1:17] Laura Camien: Hi.

[1:18] Susan Blackwell: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:18] Laura Camien: A warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:28] Susan Blackwell: But hold up, you may be asking yourself, ladies, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:28] Laura Camien: The spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:38] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that you're not careful.

[1:44] Laura Camien: Your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:47] Susan Blackwell: But do not despair.

[1:49] Laura Camien: We are collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:57] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[2:03] Laura Camien: Or an open market, freely accessible, creation by recombination gift to the world.

[2:10] Susan Blackwell: Jeez Louisies.

[2:11] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[2:12] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:16] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime, friends.

[2:24] Laura Camien: My god, if something lights you up, we encourage you to please take that thing and make something of it.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:31] Laura Camien: The spark file.

[2:38] Susan Blackwell: That Scottish accent is one of the most rigorous dialects.

[2:43] Laura Camien: It's time to do.

[2:44] Susan Blackwell: It's specific, it's muscular.

[2:47] Laura Camien: And I'm sure within it, there's 20 different variations of it.

[2:51] Susan Blackwell: I'm just talking about the one that I learned in undergrad, Laura.

[2:55] Laura Camien: Oh, that one also rigorous.

[2:57] Susan Blackwell: Also rigorous.

[2:58] Laura Camien: Also rigorous.

[3:00] Susan Blackwell: Uh, there's so many things to talk about.

[3:02] Laura Camien: I'm gonna throw something in here.

[3:05] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, okay.

[3:06] Laura Camien: Throw it in here.

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien, I think I am about a year or two behind the rest of the world.

[3:14] Laura Camien: We are binging Ted Lasso.

[3:17] Susan Blackwell: Girl, I just finished binging Ted Lasso just a couple months ago.

[3:23] Laura Camien: So I am also behind the rest of the world.

[3:25] Susan Blackwell: Two little behindies.

[3:27] Laura Camien: I needed it though.

[3:29] Susan Blackwell: It was like, I mean, it's like everything everyone says. It was like meds for my soul.

[3:35] Laura Camien: It's really, really well crafted.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: The writing is really, really well crafted, and the way that they plant seeds and start introducing threads that pay off, like hell down the line, but also I think it's laugh out loud, funny.

[3:50] Laura Camien: Yes, agree.

[3:51] Susan Blackwell: It's L-O-L, maybe not R-O-F-L, but what the fuck is.

[3:56] Laura Camien: And it is super smart.

[3:58] Susan Blackwell: The casting is fantastic.

[4:00] Laura Camien: But something I like about it is something I like about the spark file, which is there is a foundation of kindness, but it's also adult.

[4:07] Susan Blackwell: It is by adults for adults.

[4:09] Laura Camien: And so you get your good profanity, you get your good sex positivity.

[4:14] Susan Blackwell: You get all that.

[4:15] Laura Camien: You get all of that.

[4:16] Susan Blackwell: And that writing, oh my god, that writing.

[4:19] Laura Camien: You get all of that.

[4:20] Susan Blackwell: Then you also get like such a positive outlook by choice.

[4:25] Laura Camien: And what I like about season two is that they obviously started to explore well, Ted Lasso can't just be like dimensions.

[4:34] Susan Blackwell: All of that for all of them.

[4:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:36] Susan Blackwell: And so like going deeper and seeing in him that there is pain, just like anyone else, but he makes the choice on a day-to-day basis that he's gonna look at the world through a positive lens.

[4:49] Laura Camien: And it is a choice.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:51] Laura Camien: It is a choice.

[4:52] Susan Blackwell: And I think of that like the people that I have close to me in my world, starting with Wes Day and Susan Blackwell, we all make that choice.

[5:00] Laura Camien: It's not that things are perfect.

[5:01] Susan Blackwell: We just choose to be like, I'm gonna see it in the most positive way that I can.

[5:06] Laura Camien: It's very the spark file, I have to say.

[5:08] Susan Blackwell: There's a line in there that I love.

[5:11] Laura Camien: I don't think this is a big spoiler.

[5:13] Susan Blackwell: I just think it's a great line.

[5:14] Laura Camien: Ted says, I love meeting people's moms.

[5:16] Susan Blackwell: It's like reading an instruction manual as to why they're nuts.

[5:20] Laura Camien: Uh true.

[5:22] Susan Blackwell: And I just, I just think it's really smart.

[5:25] Laura Camien: I think it's really, really smart.

[5:26] Susan Blackwell: The other thing that I love that it does is there's some tropes in television and theater.

[5:32] Laura Camien: And if you think it's gonna zig, it zags.

[5:35] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[5:36] Laura Camien: I love the female relationships that we've seen so far as well, because it sets it up as you know, two people that you might assume would have competitive feelings toward each other for various reasons, and it's so refreshing.

[5:51] Susan Blackwell: It just dispenses with that immediately, and it's gonna be like yeah, we are here for each other, we're supporting each other full stop.

[5:58] Laura Camien: There's a moment where somebody has a one-night stand with somebody, and then they run into them like some many episodes later, and it's not awkward.

[6:08] Susan Blackwell: They're just like two adults that are like, Hey, it's good to see you, it's good to see you too.

[6:12] Laura Camien: Just things like that where I'm like, that's refreshing.

[6:15] Susan Blackwell: Refreshing.

[6:16] Laura Camien: It's a refreshing, delightful treat.

[6:19] Susan Blackwell: I can't wait for the next season.

[6:20] Laura Camien: Full disclosure.

[6:21] Susan Blackwell: I tried Ted Lasso, I think two times and was like, I don't know.

[6:26] Laura Camien: I'm just uh watched an episode and I was like, yeah, it's like a little dorky, it was a little too Pollyanna.

[6:33] Susan Blackwell: And what I didn't stay around long enough for, which I now have, is that it's so much more multidimensional.

[6:39] Laura Camien: So if you haven't tried it yet, nothing is for everyone.

[6:43] Susan Blackwell: But if you like the spark file, you might like Ted Lasso.

[6:46] Laura Camien: That's a weird endorsement, but I think it's true.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: You know what? That's a pull quote they're gonna use right there.

[6:51] Laura Camien: I just wrote our us a little poll quote.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Um Laura, what do you have shaken over?

[6:57] Laura Camien: Squirrely today.

[6:58] Susan Blackwell: I just am I don't know.

[7:00] Laura Camien: I love it.

[7:01] Susan Blackwell: I like Squirrelly Laura.

[7:02] Laura Camien: Squirrely Laura is like a little not well rested.

[7:07] Susan Blackwell: Um, but you know, we take the day, we see what happens.

[7:10] Laura Camien: But just like Ted Lasso, I'm gonna like throw myself into it with a positive attitude.

[7:15] Susan Blackwell: Just like the spark.

[7:16] Laura Camien: Is there anything else?

[7:18] Susan Blackwell: We got the sweetest Instagram message from Christina.

[7:23] Laura Camien: Christina, thank you for this message.

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: It's so good.

[7:27] Laura Camien: Do you want to read it?

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so this came in from Christina.

[7:30] Laura Camien: I'm in the middle of a singing contest, and I was backstage sharing with everyone the amazing performance anxiety spark.

[7:36] Susan Blackwell: So that Christina's referring to an earlier episode of the Sparks File where we explored performance anxiety.

[7:43] Laura Camien: And thank you.

[7:44] Susan Blackwell: Thank you for sharing that with the people on our behalf, Christina.

[7:48] Laura Camien: One friend just called you Las Chispitas, which is an amazing translation for little sparks in Spanish.

[7:57] Susan Blackwell: So from now on, that's how I'll call you.

[8:00] Laura Camien: And Christina continues.

[8:02] He asked, que dijeron las chispitas, which translates to what did the little spark say?

[8:02] Susan Blackwell: What did the little sparks say?

[8:11] Laura Camien: I'm not sure.

[8:12] Susan Blackwell: My high school Spanish may have been a little mangled, but the upshot is Christina.

[8:17] Laura Camien: This message made our week.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: And when Laura made sure that I saw that come in on our social media, I was like, can we get t shirts printed that say Las Chispitas?

[8:32] Laura Camien: It just is so joyful.

[8:34] Susan Blackwell: I can't even say it without smiling.

[8:36] Laura Camien: Little sparking.

[8:37] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[8:37] Laura Camien: Las Chispitas.

[8:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it's such an honor, Christina.

[8:41] Laura Camien: Thank you so much for being out there telling people about the spark file and talking about the things that these little sparks say.

[8:48] Susan Blackwell: It really means a lot.

[8:49] Laura Camien: It means a lot.

[8:50] Susan Blackwell: And thanks for feeding us back that beautiful.

[8:53] Laura Camien: Tell your friend we said thank you to.

[8:55] Susan Blackwell: That is so sweet.

[8:57] Laura Camien: Las chisquitas.

[8:58] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, that kind of stuff is going on.

[9:00] Laura Camien: I love getting messages like that.

[9:02] Susan Blackwell: It just feels so good.

[9:04] Laura Camien: It feels really good.

[9:05] Susan Blackwell: It does.

[9:06] Laura Camien: You know what else feels good?

[9:07] Susan Blackwell: Fresh sparks.

[9:08] Laura Camien: What you got for me, Laura Camien?

[9:10] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[9:11] Laura Camien: Well, first of all, Suze, the thing I want to talk about today, I'm kind of surprised that you and I haven't talked about this off mic yet.

[9:19] Susan Blackwell: But here we are.

[9:20] Laura Camien: Because we haven't had time.

[9:23] Susan Blackwell: We haven't had time.

[9:24] Laura Camien: But so now we'll take this time for me to ask Have you and Nathan been playing Wordle?

[9:29] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien, I am aware of the existence of Wordle.

[9:33] Laura Camien: I'm aware of the increasing popularity of Wordle.

[9:37] Susan Blackwell: I have even been like, I need to understand what's happening in the zeitgeist.

[9:41] Laura Camien: Done a quick Google, started reading an article, and I was like, I don't have fucking time for this.

[9:47] Susan Blackwell: But I'm so glad that this dedicated time, I think I'm going to get everything you needed to know about Wordle and were afraid to ask.

[9:56] Laura Camien: And even more.

[9:57] Susan Blackwell: And even maybe not everything about Wordle, but what are the best things we can learn from Wordle.

[10:02] Laura Camien: Wes and I discovered it just like a week or maybe two, not definitely not two weeks ago, but maybe a week and a half.

[10:11] Susan Blackwell: And when we remember to, like we play it together almost every night.

[10:23] Laura Camien: I can't believe we haven't talked about this, but again, we haven't had time.

[10:27] Susan Blackwell: Tell me more.

[10:28] Laura Camien: So of course, with the success of Wordle have come the thousands upon thousands of articles about what it's done right, lessons we can learn from it.

[10:38] Susan Blackwell: And then we began the not so great commentary that has accompanied it.

[10:43] Laura Camien: So for my spark today, I wanted to dive into the light and then a little bit of the dark and relate all of it to our creativity.

[10:52] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[10:52] Laura Camien: So that's what we're gonna do today for my spark, Suze.

[10:55] Susan Blackwell: Sit back, relax.

[10:56] Laura Camien: I'm into it.

[10:57] Susan Blackwell: For those of you like Suze who don't know what Wordle is or how we got here, I'm gonna give you a little recap.

[11:04] Laura Camien: There's a person whose name is Josh Wardle Wardle, W-A-R-D-L-E.

[11:11] Susan Blackwell: He lives in Brooklyn.

[11:12] Laura Camien: He's a software developer, and his partner loves word games, things like Spelling Bee in the New York Times, and Josh loves his partner.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: So Josh created a word game for his partner as a sweet, sweet, sweet gift.

[11:29] Laura Camien: That is a beautiful little piece of creativity.

[11:31] Susan Blackwell: Is that isn't that just wonderful?

[11:33] Laura Camien: So sweet.

[11:33] Susan Blackwell: And he put that word game up online where anyone could access it completely free, completely free.

[11:42] Laura Camien: It went up in October of 2021.

[11:45] Susan Blackwell: And by November, some friends and family had gotten into it and shared it a little.

[11:49] Laura Camien: There were like 90 players at the time.

[11:51] Susan Blackwell: By early January 2022, there were more than 300,000 players.

[11:57] Laura Camien: And now at the time of this recording, it is late January, and there are more than two million, almost three million players per week.

[12:06] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[12:08] Laura Camien: Crazy.

[12:09] Susan Blackwell: Crazy.

[12:10] Laura Camien: So the game itself is so so simple.

[12:15] Susan Blackwell: Here's the thing, Suze.

[12:17] Laura Camien: You have six tries to guess a five-letter word.

[12:20] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[12:20] Laura Camien: And with each attempt, you learn more about what letters are in the word or not in the word, and you get closer to guessing the correct word.

[12:28] Susan Blackwell: For example, it's very common to start with the first guess being like a do or something that has a whole bunch of vowels in it.

[12:35] Laura Camien: So it will tell you yes, there's an A, but it's not the first letter, or yes, there's an E in the word, but it's not in that position.

[12:44] Susan Blackwell: So you can you assess quickly which of these letters are in the word and are they in the right spot?

[12:50] Laura Camien: So you keep trying, but you only have six tries to get the right word.

[12:53] Susan Blackwell: But here's the kicker.

[12:55] Laura Camien: There's only one word per day.

[12:57] Susan Blackwell: And once you're done, you wait 24 hours until the next word is available.

[13:02] Laura Camien: And everyone is searching for the same word, which gives it sort of this larger social appeal.

[13:08] Susan Blackwell: But we're gonna get into all of that.

[13:10] Laura Camien: Yes.

[13:11] Susan Blackwell: So if you spend any time at all online, you have likely seen people sharing their results.

[13:16] Laura Camien: You've seen articles written about this instant popularity, article sharing best practices and tips to up your game.

[13:25] Susan Blackwell: Like how understanding the sonority sequencing principle in linguistics can help your wordle play.

[13:32] Laura Camien: This is the kind of stuff that you can learn right now.

[13:35] Susan Blackwell: At this point, there are also articles about what we can learn from Wordle, what we can glean from the Wordle experience in regard to the other things we create.

[13:45] Laura Camien: So I'm going to reference two articles to begin with now.

[13:48] Susan Blackwell: One on Medium from one of my new favorites, Clive Thompson, and one in Inc.

[13:54] Laura Camien: magazine written by Minda Zettlin.

[13:57] Susan Blackwell: So Clive Thompson's article is called Six Lessons from the Success of Wordle.

[14:02] Laura Camien: And Minda Zetlin's article is three important lessons you can learn from the runaway success of Wordle.

[14:08] Susan Blackwell: They love any like numbers in a on a cover of a magazine or in the title of an article.

[14:14] Laura Camien: Quick and easy.

[14:15] Susan Blackwell: Here's what we're doing.

[14:16] Laura Camien: So clicky, super clicky.

[14:18] Susan Blackwell: So maybe I should I might change the title of this six.

[14:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[14:23] Susan Blackwell: No, I mine would probably be seven or eight things.

[14:25] Laura Camien: And I'll leave it vague like that.

[14:27] Susan Blackwell: Seven or eight things you could learn from Wordle.

[14:29] Laura Camien: Okay, here we go.

[14:30] Susan Blackwell: So starting with Clive's first.

[14:32] Laura Camien: First up, Clive says you don't need to reinvent the wheel.

[14:36] Susan Blackwell: According to Clive, most successful ideas do not arrive out of nowhere.

[14:40] Laura Camien: They're extensions or riffs on existing ones.

[14:43] Susan Blackwell: As you know, Suze, at Blue Man Group, we would call this creation by recombination.

[14:48] Laura Camien: Right.

[14:48] Susan Blackwell: And friends, there is no shame in the recombination game.

[14:52] Laura Camien: There is no shame in it.

[14:54] Susan Blackwell: And I just want to state that over and over and over again.

[14:58] Susan Blackwell: Because that, like, it's already been done.

[15:00] Laura Camien: Vampire lives in our minds.

[15:03] Susan Blackwell: It can sometimes be a barrier to entry, where people are like, well, there's something sort of similar to this out in the world.

[15:10] Laura Camien: People, please continue.

[15:13] Susan Blackwell: Please move on with your vision of your thing, even if it borrows from various things.

[15:18] Laura Camien: For Wordle, Josh Wardle used different components of various games to come up with a new one.

[15:25] Susan Blackwell: He took aspects of Mastermind, Giotto, which was a game from the 1950s, and the 1980s TV show Lingo, which has been rebooted several times, even as recently as last year.

[15:38] Laura Camien: And then he put a very fresh spin on all of it, making the just one game per day with no ticking clock.

[15:45] Susan Blackwell: Clive says this rule is particularly true with games where tinkering with an existing form of play can create something that is delightfully new while also being familiar.

[15:57] Laura Camien: That combination of new yet familiar is pure gold.

[16:01] Susan Blackwell: Do something too derivative and people yawn.

[16:03] Laura Camien: Do something too novel and they're baffled.

[16:06] Susan Blackwell: The path to wild success is hitting upon that midpoint.

[16:12] Laura Camien: You know what that reminds me of, Suze?

[16:14] Susan Blackwell: That reminds me of Raymond Lowy, the father of industrial design and his term, Maya.

[16:22] Laura Camien: Most advanced yet acceptable.

[16:24] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[16:25] Laura Camien: So that idea of being torn between like a love of new things and a fear of new things, this intersection of this familiar point and new point.

[16:35] Susan Blackwell: And Wordle really taps right into that.

[16:39] Laura Camien: That is Maya.

[16:40] Susan Blackwell: But I think it's really true about all the things that we create.

[16:43] Laura Camien: Sometimes it's so easy to get in our heads.

[16:46] Susan Blackwell: Like I think I've seen something like this before.

[16:48] Laura Camien: Maybe it's already been done.

[16:50] Susan Blackwell: So again, we say everything is building upon things that have already been done.

[16:57] Laura Camien: Just bring a fresh perspective to it, make it your own, and it will be unique.

[17:02] Susan Blackwell: Period.

[17:03] Laura Camien: Number two on Clive's list is making something as a gift is a powerful motivation.

[17:10] Susan Blackwell: Friends, you know we've been saying this nonstop.

[17:13] Laura Camien: Making something just for the sake of making something is enough.

[17:18] Susan Blackwell: You were meant to create.

[17:33] Laura Camien: Financial gain is not the only reason to create things.

[17:36] Susan Blackwell: Your creative endeavors can be a gift to someone else, a gift to the world, or simply a gift to yourself.

[17:44] Laura Camien: In this case, Wardle was not intending to make any money off of the game.

[17:48] Susan Blackwell: So he built it with no advertising, no in-app purchases, no fee at all to play the game.

[17:55] Laura Camien: The experience of it is unique for us without all those commercial aspects, and probably even more likely that we passed it on to other people because of our experience.

[18:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[18:07] Laura Camien: Which brings us to number three.

[18:08] Susan Blackwell: Make things for an audience of one.

[18:12] Laura Camien: Make things for an audience of one.

[18:14] Susan Blackwell: Josh Wardle had exactly one person in mind when he was creating Wordle.

[18:20] Laura Camien: And he used his personal preferences as a guide.

[18:24] Susan Blackwell: Clive says in his article, when we're creating things, it's normal to start worrying about how our audience will react.

[18:32] Laura Camien: All those different people with different aesthetics, some of them are going to love this part of what you're doing, but hate this other part.

[18:40] Susan Blackwell: Worrying about this can lead you into a rat hole of self-censorship where you try to satisfy everyone and wind up satisfying no one.

[18:49] Laura Camien: Lin-Manuel Miranda's article in Inc., this idea intersects with her list of lessons.

[18:54] Susan Blackwell: She says, make something you love is number one.

[18:58] Laura Camien: When you create something you love so much that you're happy to do it for free, there's a good chance other people will love it too.

[19:05] Susan Blackwell: Love that.

[19:06] Laura Camien: You love it.

[19:07] Susan Blackwell: And it reminds me, I feel like I never know what we've talked about off mic in class or on the podcast.

[19:13] Laura Camien: So if you're hearing this for the second time on the podcast within like a week, it's a thought so nice.

[19:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm saying it twice.

[19:21] Laura Camien: We had been invited by the Miranda family fellows.

[19:25] Susan Blackwell: That's Lynn Manuel, Miranda, and his family have this group of scholars that they're essentially supporting them in their educational endeavors.

[19:35] Laura Camien: Yeah, and just making more things accessible to them to widen their experiences.

[19:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:42] Laura Camien: So we had been asked to come and teach a workshop with this small, wonderful group of students.

[19:49] Susan Blackwell: And then Lynn and his family came and we had this round table discussion.

[19:53] Laura Camien: And Lynn was saying that thing about it has to move you first.

[19:57] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[19:58] Laura Camien: Whenever you're making something, it has to move you first.

[20:01] Susan Blackwell: And I do think that this speaks to this idea, whether you're making something from a place of love or as a gift, like it has to move you and maybe that one other person first.

[20:13] Laura Camien: I love this.

[20:14] Susan Blackwell: I literally wrote down like I think here at the Sparks File, we would say make things for an audience of one and make that one person you.

[20:23] Laura Camien: If you find it funny, if you find it engaging, if you find it thought-provoking, if you approve of its aesthetic and it makes you feel all the feels, you are most likely onto something that will cause others to feel things too.

[20:38] Susan Blackwell: I mean, you can't guarantee it, obviously.

[20:40] Laura Camien: You can only gauge whether or not it appeals to you.

[20:44] Susan Blackwell: But if you don't start there, you're just taking a guess, a wild guess at what might move someone else.

[20:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:50] Susan Blackwell: But if you start with like, does this move me?

[20:53] Laura Camien: Do I feel things?

[20:55] Susan Blackwell: That's where I think we start.

[20:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:57] Susan Blackwell: I feel like we did that when we were making title of show.

[21:00] Laura Camien: We were really trying to bring things to the table, literally to the kitchen table that made us and each other laugh.

[21:08] Susan Blackwell: That was the audience.

[21:09] Laura Camien: It was ourselves and each other.

[21:11] Susan Blackwell: The entire experience at Blue Man Group, same.

[21:15] Laura Camien: They're like, no one's ever done a show like this.

[21:17] Susan Blackwell: And people literally said you can't do that.

[21:20] Laura Camien: And they were like, what show would we want to see?

[21:24] Susan Blackwell: And then you'll find out if anyone else.

[21:26] Laura Camien: Maybe you're the only one weirdo out there.

[21:29] Susan Blackwell: Maybe.

[21:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:30] Susan Blackwell: But most likely there's fellow weirdos out there.

[21:33] Laura Camien: I love this.

[21:34] Susan Blackwell: In an interview for Slate, Josh Wardle said, I used to work in Silicon Valley, and I'm aware of the things that, especially with games, you're meant to do with people's attention.

[21:45] Laura Camien: You're trying to capture as much of people's attention as you can.

[21:49] Susan Blackwell: So that involves things like endless play or sending them push notifications or asking them for sign-up information.

[21:56] Laura Camien: And philosophically, I enjoy doing the opposite of all those things.

[22:01] Susan Blackwell: Doing all the things that you're not meant to do, which I think has had a bizarrely had an effect where this game feels really human and just enjoyable.

[22:11] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:12] Susan Blackwell: So by ignoring the rules of what he was supposed to do when making this game, Josh made a game he and his partner would want to play.

[22:19] Laura Camien: And in the process, he made a game millions of us want to play.

[22:23] Susan Blackwell: So Clive's number four is observe what your fans are doing.

[22:27] Laura Camien: And I would add, and don't be afraid to adapt to feedback you are learning.

[22:32] Susan Blackwell: One of the things we can attribute Wordle's viral success to is that on social media, it was easy to share these grids that showed like how I solved today's puzzle.

[22:43] Laura Camien: That is the thing that that was like the gateway where I was like, What is that?

[22:47] Susan Blackwell: Because it looks like a um like tiny side spark.

[22:51] Laura Camien: Nathan has a tattoo on his arm, and it just looks like it almost looks like a stretched wordle, it's more of a rectangle and it has a grid, and then some of those squares are filled in and some are not.

[23:07] Susan Blackwell: So that oh my god, yeah, that looks very much like Wordle.

[23:10] Laura Camien: It looks like a stretched out wordle, and with in his case, it represents something like very personal to him, and he took that very personal information and he encoded it in this wordle that he has on his arm.

[23:25] Susan Blackwell: But when I saw that, I was like, that all means something, but I don't have the decoder ring to crack what that means.

[23:33] Laura Camien: Which is a good thing because this particular way of sharing helped people to be able to show that they solved the puzzle and how they solved it, but it doesn't give you the answer.

[23:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[23:45] Laura Camien: So that was super super smart.

[23:48] Susan Blackwell: That tile grid was like perfect for a quick brag or fun engagement online with other people who are trying to solve the puzzle, but that was not Josh's idea.

[24:01] Laura Camien: He didn't have that at first.

[24:03] Susan Blackwell: He put this out into the world, and then over time he noticed something that a fan was doing to share their wordle results online.

[24:11] Laura Camien: He said this in that uh slate interview.

[24:14] Susan Blackwell: The first thing I have to point out is that I did not come up with the emoji grid.

[24:19] Laura Camien: Wordle, as I built it, got picked up in the New York Times newsletter, and people started playing it, and there was no share grid.

[24:26] Susan Blackwell: And for some reason that I don't fully understand, the game got really big in New Zealand, and a New Zealand Twitter was playing a lot of the game.

[24:35] Laura Camien: Someone out there who I don't know came up with the emoji grid as a spoiler-free way of sharing her results with other people.

[24:43] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[24:43] Laura Camien: Previously, people were just saying wordle in three.

[24:47] Susan Blackwell: And then she added this visual component that tells a story.

[24:50] Laura Camien: So I saw other people start doing it.

[24:52] Susan Blackwell: And then I manually typed out the emoji grid, going back and forth, referencing it.

[24:57] Laura Camien: So I'm like, wait, I can make this, I can just pull this into the game.

[25:01] Susan Blackwell: And obviously, you can write the code.

[25:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's had a huge impact on helping it go viral.

[25:07] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[25:07] Laura Camien: So when I think about this, and I combine it with the message before, so I think the lesson here is like first you create the work you want to create, and then you watch and see how people are engaging and interacting with it.

[25:22] Susan Blackwell: And if you can learn from that, you can adapt to support the way that they want to engage.

[25:27] Laura Camien: As Clive mentions in the early days of Twitter, it was really clever users who invented the retweet and the at reply.

[25:36] Susan Blackwell: And to their credit, Twitter's engineers spotted that behavior, adopted it as native features, and they helped to catalyze Twitter's explosive growth.

[25:47] Laura Camien: So again, I just want to note both of those examples of adaptation came in the growth phase, not in the creation phase.

[25:54] Susan Blackwell: They created a thing and they put it in the world.

[25:56] Laura Camien: Then they made adaptations as a way to support those who wanted to organically spread the word.

[26:02] Susan Blackwell: Can I just say I've been thinking about this so much lately?

[26:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[26:02] Susan Blackwell: I've been thinking about how we have been making all sorts of things for the past couple of years.

[26:12] Laura Camien: This podcast, our coaching groups, and all of all of this stuff.

[26:18] Susan Blackwell: Right now, we're in the middle of doing some work on our house.

[26:21] Laura Camien: And it's not until you actually get in to the making of something that it starts to just expand and you see possibilities that you would have never seen unless you were actually in the making of it and also in the sharing of it, the actual sharing of the light of it.

[26:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[26:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[26:42] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[26:42] Laura Camien: The sharing of the light of it, you can learn so much, like Clive says, by watching your audience and the way what are they sharing about it?

[26:50] Susan Blackwell: What way are they sharing it?

[26:52] Laura Camien: And how can I help them share it more freely and just make it easy on them and make it joyful for them?

[26:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, this is awesome.

[26:59] Laura Camien: Thanks, Suze.

[27:00] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so number five on Clive's list is forget the app store, make stuff on the open web.

[27:06] Laura Camien: Remember, his article is like about design.

[27:08] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[27:08] Laura Camien: So for me, I've interpreted this for all the rest of us in our creativity.

[27:14] Susan Blackwell: I think the real meaning behind this one is make your work accessible.

[27:18] Laura Camien: So for Wordle, anyone can play it.

[27:21] Susan Blackwell: It's free.

[27:22] Laura Camien: You can play it in any browser.

[27:25] Susan Blackwell: You don't have to buy it or download it from the app store.

[27:28] Laura Camien: There is no barrier to entry.

[27:30] Susan Blackwell: You don't have to give your email address or set up an account or log in.

[27:34] Laura Camien: According to Anil Dash on his blog, the Glitch blog, people are especially enthusiastic about things they can share without having to go through an app store, without being bogged down by having lots of their data captured during the experience.

[27:49] Susan Blackwell: And I agree, it is so refreshingly simple and accessible.

[27:55] Laura Camien: In an article in the New York Times by Daniel Victor titled Wordle is a Love Story, Josh Wardle says, I think people kind of appreciate that this thing's online and it's just for fun.

[28:09] Susan Blackwell: Mr. Wardle said in an interview on Monday, it's not trying to do anything shady with your data or with your eyeballs.

[28:16] Laura Camien: It's just a game for fun.

[28:19] Susan Blackwell: Takeaway here, I think, is make your work accessible and let people experience it without telling them how to experience it or asking anything from them.

[28:29] Laura Camien: Those shops, like you know, when you go online, you go to a shop you think you might be interested in, and they ask you if you want to join their mailing list before you're even able to see the products.

[28:38] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, I don't know yet.

[28:39] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[28:39] Susan Blackwell: I haven't, I can't even see your website.

[28:42] Laura Camien: You're asking me like I need to give over my information, or asking you to refer them to three of your friends.

[28:47] Susan Blackwell: And I don't even know what I think yet, because I can't see it.

[28:51] Laura Camien: It's not accessible to me until I've paid a price of some kind.

[28:56] Susan Blackwell: And I don't mean, you know, like buying a ticket or whatnot, but I have had to give you the key to some part of my life that I'm not sure I want to give you yet.

[29:05] Laura Camien: How about make it easily available and let people have their own experience of it before you ask anything of them?

[29:13] Susan Blackwell: Just an idea.

[29:14] Laura Camien: You plan that out in your mind?

[29:16] Susan Blackwell: I'm playing it out of my mind because I think we're guilty of it like on our own website.

[29:20] Laura Camien: Like, do you know what I mean?

[29:21] Susan Blackwell: It's it's uh Yeah, but you can't, you don't have to give us your your information in order to enjoy the website, like one click and you get out of that.

[29:31] Laura Camien: I think that people can go and listen to the podcast.

[29:35] Susan Blackwell: We don't have all their information, there's no barrier to entry.

[29:38] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[29:39] Susan Blackwell: No, you're absolutely right.

[29:41] Laura Camien: You're absolutely right.

[29:42] Susan Blackwell: And I mean, I don't want to jump your spark.

[29:45] Laura Camien: And if you're gonna get to this, please you know.

[29:48] Susan Blackwell: Push pause, push my nose, and it will push pause.

[29:51] Laura Camien: Does he monetize it?

[29:53] Susan Blackwell: Not at all.

[29:55] Laura Camien: Susan, not at all.

[29:57] Susan Blackwell: He's not making a dime off of it. It was a gift, and it still continues to be a gift. In fact, I'm not gonna get this story completely right because I haven't done a ton of research, but there was another guy, a software engineer who was like, okay, cool, you're not gonna monetize it. He copied the whole thing, he created another one, put it on the app store, started selling it, then got on Twitter to brag about the fact that he was selling it, and people like fucking pounced on him, and Apple took it down. So now you won't be selling anymore. That's not pure, and people are loving the purity of this. People are loving the purity of it. And I'm telling you, Suze, it is so refreshing. It feels so old school. It makes honestly, sometimes it makes me nostalgic because it feels like the old days before all this other stuff, before everything.

[30:48] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:49] Susan Blackwell: So Clive's number six is engineer for occasional use, not for addiction. You right?

[30:57] Laura Camien: No, we love this.

[30:58] Susan Blackwell: So according to Clive, Wordle offers up only one new word every day. That's it. Once you've solved the day's word, you stop playing. Yes, you go do other stuff, like your job or hanging out with your loved ones. Sure, you might hanker to play more Wordle, but you can't. You gotta wait till tomorrow. The idea of making yourself scarce seems so counter to the world that we're living in right now. We're about exposure, exposure, exposure, exposing ourselves multiple times per day, multiple posts, and the idea of staying relevant, trying to break through the noise and then keep people's attention. The whole thing goes against the grain. In the New York Times article, Josh says the breakthrough, he said, was limiting players to one game per day.

That enforced a sense of scarcity, which leaves people wanting more, he said. The initial design ignored a lot of the growth hacking features that are virtually expected of games in the current era. While other games send notifications to your phone, hoping you'll come back throughout the day, Wordle doesn't want an intense relationship with you. It's something that encourages you to spend three to five minutes a day. That's it. Like it doesn't want any more of your time than that. To me, this falls into the category of having respect for your audience. Take the time it takes to tell the story, express the thought, share the experience, and move on. Maybe wait to express something when you have something of value to share. I know it goes against current trends, but it is worth considering.

[33:04] Laura Camien: She just succinctly says, leave people wanting more. And I'm on board with that. That is an idea that feels old school now, doesn't it?

[33:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But that's something I would say I think we both grew up with. The concept of leaving people wanting more. Make yourself a little bit scarce. Leave the party just a little bit early. People like, hey, wait a minute. I didn't get enough of them tonight. I want more of that.

[33:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:29] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, so those are the first few lessons that I wanted to apply to our overall creativity. But now I've got a bit of the dark side.

[33:58] Laura Camien: What if it makes someone mad at them? What if the reviews are ugly or mean? What if they get criticized? Well, the long and short of it is that is a barrier to entry if you want to have your work seen. Of course, you can make art for yourself and only yourself, and that could be a joyful thing, and that is enough. There's no shame in that. But if you want your work to be read or seen or experienced by other people in any way, you open yourself up to the possibility of criticism. Wordle is no exception. There is an article in The Atlantic by Charlie Wartzel called The Internet is Eating Wordle Alive. And it perfectly describes the phenomenon of how people will come for you and your work, even something as innocuous as a free five-letter word game.

[34:55] Susan Blackwell: Really? I love this article. I love how Wartzel tees it up. He says, Wordle is a newish word game that is web-based, non-monetized, and impossible to binge because there's only one puzzle a day. It's simple, but it also feels refreshing and unique. There's a social element, you can share your results without giving away the answer to the puzzle. But it is perhaps the least offensive, non-problematic, viral phenomenon to achieve escape velocity in some time. That inoffensiveness has a lot to do with why a mass of people delight in the game. The stakes are exceedingly low. It can make you feel momentarily clever, but not super smart. It can be frustrating, but it's also hard to take extremely seriously.

He goes on to say, but this is the internet, a place where any and every reaction to a trend or a piece of information is not only possible, but probable. That means without too much searching, you can find a group of people who take Wordle far too seriously. Similarly, you can find people who've made being a Wordler an outsized part of their online personality, seemingly overnight. And so it makes sense that there are also people who, rather reflexively, dislike the game and its legion of sometimes annoying fans.

[36:20] Laura Camien: So, all of that.

[36:25] Susan Blackwell: That I know of, but the backlash is happening. There are people tweeting that they're gonna block anyone who posts their scores.

[36:34] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[36:36] Susan Blackwell: Keep in mind the posts are not even spoilers. They just don't want to hear about it.

[36:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:41] Susan Blackwell: The tweet fighting back and forth about how it's okay to like something and how it's also okay to dislike someone who likes something. It's a bit crazy. And now someone has created a bot that will tell you the answer to tomorrow's game, even if you don't want it. So it effectively like spoils the fun if you come across this in your feed.

[37:02] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[37:04] Susan Blackwell: Wartzel explains like anything that burns brightly on the internet, the popularity has inspired a non-trivial number of people who are done with the enthusiasm and the sharing of the scores. It's an example of a naturally occurring phenomenon in our current culture. But the dynamics as they pertain to this game are illuminating. We're not talking about cancel culture or critical race theory or even about a remake of a piece of fandom rich intellectual property with all kinds of emotions attached. We're talking about a web game where you spell a five-letter word. I mean, come on, he's so right. If you're looking to create something that doesn't upset anyone, you would think that a simple, free, no frills five-letter word game might be able to fly under the scrutiny of our critical culture.

[38:00] Laura Camien: Yep.

[38:00] Susan Blackwell: But no, the very popularity of the game is what did it in in the first place. If you're going to share something you made with the world, you must be prepared for the positive and the negative opinions.

[38:15] Laura Camien: I guess so.

[38:16] Susan Blackwell: Holy moly. I do, Suze. I just think the days of universal appeal of anything are just long over. I mean, I think this has always been in place, but I feel like per what you're saying, it really is burning bright in our culture. This sort of oppositional defiance.

[38:34] Laura Camien: Yes.

[38:36] Susan Blackwell: And this sort of, you know, if you say yes, I say no. If you say right, I say left. Like that just sort of pushing against, and people kind of habitually living in the character two part of their brain that is sort of like it's either or, it's black and white. And sort of defining themselves, attaching it to their identity of like I am the kind of person who likes Marvel comics. I'm the kind of person who hates Marvel Comics or what have you. Like attaching their identity to their stance as related to a thing. And also I'm the kind of person who bucks trends and you all are sheeple and all of that, just like 100%.

[39:17] Laura Camien: You, Susan, talk eloquently about the arena. I would rather be a person that's in the arena. Hydra Bell talks about it takes time to build a sandcastle and it takes a moment to kick it.

[39:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:29] Laura Camien: And I'd rather be a sandcastle builder than a sandcastle kicker.

[39:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[39:33] Laura Camien: And I hear that, and I'm just like, oh, come on. Like mature up that part of your brain that feels the need to be special by being oppositional. But listen, the thing is, it's not going away anytime soon, which means if this has been a block for you creatively, let us help you get past it. Let us help you get past it. Cause it's not changing.

[40:00] Susan Blackwell: You're right. Here's the thing this criticism How to give less fucks. How to give less fucks. It's 100%. This criticism has been around forever, without a doubt. Like it's always been there. But we are living in a very distinct era. And that's why I think I love this article so much. Because Wartzel really explains how and why this dynamic exists. But even though this is kind of to be expected, it's very distinct. And he says there's an internet flavor to this one. What's happened with Wordle is only really possible in an environment where there's simply too much information in every sense. Wordle popped into our lives at a perfect time during a listless holiday season amid a global pandemic surge.

In a way, we were primed for something like this. For the last 20 months, many people have been glued to the internet and to the technologies that relentlessly mediate our everyday experience. For many of us, those technologies have passed the point of staleness and entered the realm of resentment. Zoom fatigue, constantly bickering Facebook groups, endless TikTok scrolls, Netflix boredom, the feeling of having a million channels and nothing to watch. And here comes something that feels old school, even timeless, and therefore fresh.

[41:27] Laura Camien: But he goes on to explain as people have compared Wordle to sourdough bread or the Tiger King, activities that marked and defined a very specific moment. Ted Lasso Ted Lasso have hit the Ted Lasso moment in my pandemic. In most of those pandemic hobbies, people have latched on to an activity as a life raft. It's a distraction, yes, but there's also an anxious charge to it, as if a lot of us are holding on a bit too tight to it. We just give it a little more oxygen and assign it a larger role in our daily lives. So little communities form on platforms everywhere, sending algorithmic signals that make the most obsessive voices sound the loudest.

[42:15] Susan Blackwell: And this is interesting. We talked about algorithms recently in another podcast, but the algorithms pick up on the excitedly obsessed and transmit those voices out. We begin to see the articles and the tips that I mentioned earlier. We get origin stories for Wordle, the love story article I mentioned, and on and on. We have a great big pylon, if you will.

[42:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:37] Susan Blackwell: So then for those that are not in the Wordle camp, either because they don't know about it or they don't enjoy it, all of this coverage gets annoying. It feels like Wordle lovers are screaming at them. So they scream back. As Wartzel says, people making Wordle their entire personality becomes annoying enough to a person that they make disliking Wordle their entire personality.

[43:02] Laura Camien: Right.

[43:02] Susan Blackwell: Those people are naturally loud and provocative online, and thanks to social media platforms that reward engagement, their voices are amplified. And so the most provocative and annoyed and the most enthusiastic and supportive Wordle crews find each other seamlessly and proceed to piss each other off. And thus it continues. I mean, this article illustrated to me in such a clear way how this dynamic happens and how at this point in our lives it's almost inevitable. So if you or your work gets positive attention in some way, it is absolutely probable that it will get negative attention in some way.

[43:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[43:46] Susan Blackwell: For every action, there's an equal opposite reaction, right?

[43:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[43:49] Susan Blackwell: The internet is living proof of that. This fits a little close to home. I always think of that fear. I do have that fear where it's sort of like, uh if something that you do sort of catches, yes. And it just get ready because the backlash is coming. And I don't think that's unfounded. I think there's plenty of evidence for it. And I so I feel like the antidote is really caring less.

[44:17] Laura Camien: It's caring less, but it's also accepting, accepting that the negative will come because you got positive.

[44:23] Susan Blackwell: So wise, so wise. You know, it's just like, what is the alternative? Making something that doesn't get anyone's attention at all. Because that's the only way. What is that old phrase of like, do you want to be someone that people are talking about, or do you want to be the person talking about other people?

[44:42] Laura Camien: Yes.

[44:42] Susan Blackwell: Because it's gonna happen. You can decide. So it's funny that you mentioned this, Suze, because I'm gonna mention some things that might feel sensitive. But this equal opposite reaction, it happens online for sure, but it happens in real life too.

[44:58] Susan Blackwell: So we were on Zoom the other day with someone who is becoming a client. We could not be more excited. And at one point, I know what you're gonna say. Oh my god, I know what you're gonna say. We have not talked about this in the world. We have not talked about this, but and I have another example too. So it's this, but more. So at one point, this person mentioned that they have taken a workshop with us previously, and they said, I loved it, and they raved for a bit, and then they said unprompted, my roommate wasn't into it, it just wasn't their jam. No, that's not what they said. Okay. They said my roommate hated it. Okay, so my roommate hated it. Okay, and I was like, okay, that's okay. And we've had clients too in similar ways.

Like we've had clients say, I love your podcast. I listen religiously. My wife hates it. She just isn't into it. Yep. And it's a full thought. It's a full thought. And we're just like, yay! Oh, okay, that's too bad. But yay, we found you. We found our person. Yeah. To me, this is all okay because the more you are you, and the more your work is authentic to you, the more it will weed out those it isn't for. If your show is for teens who are into werewolves, let it be for teens who are into werewolves. Do not worry about whether or not their parents are gonna also watch it. If your work is for menopausal women, let it be for menopausal women. Do not worry about whether or not their husbands are also going to watch.

And let me tell you, both of those examples, there have been huge successes made for teens who like werewolves and for menopausal women. Huge, huge successes. But the more you define who you are creating for, the more your audience will self-select. You'll truly be serving those you intend to serve and freeing up the other people to go find what they're looking for. Does that make sense?

[47:04] Laura Camien: Of course it does. It makes 100% sense. And I feel like this podcast just got really personal for me. It's for me. Welcome in, everybody. Let's get real close. Let's circle around Susan. Give her some love. Just a few thoughts that I want to share. One is um I learned about something from one of our clients, Jess Edelstein. Hi, Jess. Yes, hi, Jess. Rejection sensitivity dysphoria, where that moment that happened in passing, where this wonderful person whom I is completely a love said, I took this workshop, I loved it, y'all. My roommate hated it. It's one of those things where I'm like, oh, is this gonna be one of those things that catches me and swirls for a couple of days? And luckily with that, I was able to just observe it and it passed by.

But there have been times, clearly, the two examples that you gave, and I'm sure others we could cite, but we won't take up the time. I remember them. Even if they don't take me into the what Laura would call the twister, even if they don't pull me into my character too, they do kind of like leave like just like a little mark where I'm just like noted, noted. Um but I'm trying to work with not getting pulled into that swirl. And sometimes I'm better at it than other times. So I just wanted to acknowledge for my fellows who have that RSD along with me. Um, I see you and I feel you.

[48:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes. There's another thing that I wanted to mention to you. I've thought about this as another spark for another day, but I'll share it with you now. And I'm kind of gonna mess this up, so please enjoy it. There's this podcaster that I like to listen to. She's a coach, and her name is Cara Loenthiel, I think is how you pronounce her name. But she was talking about in the realm of dating, but I do think it can be applied to creativity. She is somebody who is more Zoftig. And when she was putting herself out there to date and processing through some of her feelings about her body shape and her body size. Something that was helpful to her, and it's actually been helpful to me in thinking about all sorts of things, is there are these parts of us that are just parts of us.

Like if somebody didn't like you, Laura, because you're a feminist. If somebody didn't like me because I have silver hair, or because I put a lot of emphasis on kindness or something like that, you would be like, well, they're not my person. They're not my person. Yeah. That person is and not for me. And yet, when it comes to like body shapes and sizes, there's this scrambling for some people to try to like change themselves when really it's like, this is me. I'm a I'm a healthy person and this is this is what I look like, or I'm a feminist, or I'm a I prefer to try to live in a kind-hearted way. Whatever it is, whatever that non-negotiable would be for you, that you would be like, somebody that doesn't want to be with a feminist is not my person. Right. I'm sort of like, if you don't like my whatever, fill in the blank creatives, like the wordle, then this just isn't for you. It's just not for you.

[50:14] Laura Camien: Was that a cohesive thought? It was an absolutely cohesive thought and completely in line with this. Like the more you you are in your creative work, I think it helps people to know. They could instantly know, like these ladies aren't for me. Listen to them. They're feminists and they're liberals and they like dogs. I don't, I don't like people like that. Right. That's a great example. I like dogs. And if somebody is like, I hate dogs, I'm like, then you're not gonna be one of my people. And so think about that though, in terms of our work. What gets into us? And and I do think like we have we have a spark coming that we've got to do about body image and all of that because there's only so much you can control.

But let's say it's your creative work we're talking about, it's your creative work. Yeah, what message did we get that your creative work will only have value if it speaks to everyone? And I mean everyone, if it offends no one and speaks to everyone. Well, clearly having that be a motivator is not a great idea. Because even if it is completely innocuous and just sort of like a kind thing that's not trying to take your money or take your data, somebody will still find a way to oppose it.

[51:35] Susan Blackwell: 100%. And you look at like I think in the theater world, obviously, our mind goes to Hamilton. Hamilton in most recent years, which is now, I don't know, eight, ten years. I mean, like it's been a it's been a little while. Yeah, and a certain number of years in, you started to notice all these people that have agreed that it is a masterpiece and it's extraordinary, and you just had you just knew it was a matter of time till people were like coming for it for a variety of reasons. Oh my gosh, yes, it's inevitable. And do you think that Lynn Manuel has looked back and said, Oh, you know what? I'm starting to feel bad about that thing I made, because some people don't like it.

[52:16] Laura Camien: I think this is a great example. When when uh in the heights came out, and obviously the film of In the Heights, when it came out, that was after all the success of Hamilton. So Lynn was becoming or had become a global superstar, and so there's a whole other level of scrutiny. When In the Heights came out, a lot of criticism was leveled at the film of In the Heights, and then retroactively at Hamilton, because people perceived that there was some shortcomings and some blind spots about the way that Lynn had dealt with certain things. And to his credit, I have to say, the little bit, I'm not an expert on this, but the little bit that I did read about it, Lynn was like, I'm here and I'm listening.

I'm here and I'm listening to this. And I was like, oh, that is next level. That ability to at least in I never have talked to Lynn about this. I don't have some inside scoop about this. But the social media tweets that were going out and things like that, I was like, that is some next level shit to be able to be like, I'm here and I am listening and I am learning.

[53:32] Susan Blackwell: Now that we're parsing this, like even more, because I think this is a next level issue from what we've been talking about. Because yes, he said, I'm here and I'm listening when it was something of real importance that needed to be listened to. Yes, yes, yes. It wasn't just people uh leveling complaints against Wordle and its popularity. Yes, yes, years of complaints or people just railing against Hamilton because so many other people loved it, and they needed to define themselves as people who did not love it. And we didn't hear him weigh in on that. We didn't hear him chime in and be like, oh, I'm listening. Tell me more about how you didn't like it and what I should change. How could I possibly achieve approval from you?

[54:18] Laura Camien: Right. You're right, Laura. When it mattered, when there was something that he could learn, yes, improve, change in himself and in his work, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. But if we're just talking about personal opinion and people saying, Well, I would have done it this way or I would have done it that way, in regard to any aspect of the show, you have to be able to let that go and know the difference.

[54:44] Susan Blackwell: So this is a good point. Know the difference. Then yeah, stop and learn that. Oh, Laura. But know the difference. Someone's simply not approving of your work or not liking it. It's not the same.

[55:04] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yes, you're right. You're right. You're right. I have more thoughts, but is this an okay time to share them?

[55:09] Susan Blackwell: Well, sure. I was just gonna, you know, wrap with what do we make of it? It feels like we're moving into that. So why don't you tell me what's on your list?

[55:16] Laura Camien: I was just thinking about how when you were talking about this and unpacking how the motivation for making this was creating something as a gift, creating something from love, creating something for an audience of one. I just think that's so pure and so lovely. And almost immediately my mind went back to your money, money, money uh-huh podcast spark. Uh-huh. I got caught in like, how is he monetizing it? How is this translating into hopefully this guy being able to pay his rent or his mortgage and the attention economy and how people's desire to keep our attention, which I resent. And I'm also like, I want to make sure that that Josh is getting paid. So I just observe in myself this struggle.

[56:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh, 100%. And I want to believe like he worked in Silicon Valley, he has made other games. He's doing okay. Um, I feel like he's doing okay, and that can be a difference. Like it, I think it is okay, certainly, to do work that you need to make money from. It it can't always be like I don't ever need to get paid for that. I don't think that's the message. But in this case, he it's not what he made it for. And he didn't like see an opportunity like I could monetize this. I just I want to make it for my wife.

[56:40] Laura Camien: Yeah. I think the message is not that is how it always needs to be done, but the message is that is a perfectly valid way to create.

[56:49] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[56:50] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So, Laura, what do we make of it?

[56:54] Susan Blackwell: What do we make of it?

[56:56] Laura Camien: I think the key takeaways are make things you love. Know that you cannot make everyone happy, start by making you happy, and know that if you have any amount of success, you will have criticism too. Period. Full stop. You will, and you will survive it.

[57:15] Susan Blackwell: Preach, preacher. Preach, baby. Oh, it's so good. Wordle. It's so good, Laura. Thank you. Wordle, thank you so much for bringing me up to speed. I feel like I can now engage with the zeitgeist and feel at peace. And I also I just want to give you a special shout out, Laura Camien, for doing a spark that contained the names Wordle and Warhol. Zeus, that was my tongue twister for the day.

[57:46] Laura Camien: Wordle did really good. Wardle made Wordle and Wurzel wrote about it.

[57:52] Susan Blackwell: Wrote about it, which is another rare word. That was great. Thank you for that, Laura Cammy.

[57:59] Laura Camien: My pleasure. My pleasure.

[58:02] Susan Blackwell: Friends, I think that's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Hey, listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you're gonna need to share a creative risk that you've taken recently. Follow us on social at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really, really, really helps other listeners to find us.

Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, you can wardle wardle and warzel yourself. If something lights you up and get your creative sparks playing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. Hey, it's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know, you gotta take it and make it make it bye.

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