This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark style.

[0:26] Susan Blackwell: Spark!

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you're an OG member of the Sparkfile community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, friend.

[0:59] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and welcoming and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:06] Susan Blackwell: You also may be asking yourself, what exactly is a Sparkfile?

[1:10] Laura Camien: A Sparkfile is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:16] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you wanna be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:25] Laura Camien: But don't despair, we are collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:42] Susan Blackwell: Or a path from creative goodness to creative greatness.

[1:47] Laura Camien: Ooh, I like that.

[1:49] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:53] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:57] Susan Blackwell: That means we have so many more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:02] Laura Camien: So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:09] Susan Blackwell: Without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:16] Laura Camien: You know, when you're talking sometimes and you're like, I need to be talking two times faster than I am.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: That's what I'm feeling right now.

[2:26] Laura Camien: So, or everybody just go ahead and lean into listening at like twice the pace if you can do that when you're talking about it.

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: Twice the pace.

[2:34] Laura Camien: Yeah, to X this.

[2:36] Susan Blackwell: To exit.

[2:37] Laura Camien: I was reading something this morning written by my friend Mark Fisher of Mark Fisher Fitness about reading.

[2:47] Susan Blackwell: He is a voracious reader, and he reads, I think something like he said like about two books a week, but he was saying how he listens at 1.8, and it takes like a discipline to listen at that speed, but you can train yourself to listen faster.

[3:09] Susan Blackwell: So he listens quickly.

[3:11] Laura Camien: Does he read? Is he a speed reader? Does he read quickly?

[3:13] Susan Blackwell: No, he said he reads slowly.

[3:16] Laura Camien: He listens quickly.

[3:18] Susan Blackwell: He reads slowly, is what he says.

[3:20] Laura Camien: It is really interesting to me to just ponder the concept of listening slowly.

[3:26] Susan Blackwell: No, listening more quickly.

[3:28] Laura Camien: I know.

[3:28] Susan Blackwell: Listen quicker.

[3:29] Laura Camien: As if we have control of the speed with which we listen, but apparently we do.

[3:34] Susan Blackwell: I think we do, and I think it's a focus issue.

[3:38] Laura Camien: For myself.

[3:38] Laura Camien: I would say, because I have at times attempted this.

[3:42] Susan Blackwell: Oh, and it requires a higher level of focus personally.

[3:47] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: We talk about this, like I enjoy audiobooks, but what I've discovered is if I'm listening to them out walking, I kind of prefer fiction because I'm not trying to like take any notes or remember a thing and be like, oh, that's a concept I really want to incorporate into my life.

[4:05] Laura Camien: So it's a little bit harder for me to if it's like a self-help book or something I'm trying to learn.

[4:12] Susan Blackwell: I need the tangible book.

[4:14] Laura Camien: Well, he said something which I completely have this.

[4:18] Susan Blackwell: You've heard me talk about this before, where he'll do both, he'll listen and read the same book.

[4:24] Laura Camien: That is for learning times and for like spark writing times and things where I'm like, I'm really responsible for mirroring this back accurately.

[4:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:36] Laura Camien: Fiction is I love like, you know, like shoveling snow to fiction or like cleaning to fiction.

[4:43] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[4:44] Laura Camien: I like walking to fiction.

[4:45] Susan Blackwell: I really do.

[4:46] Laura Camien: Speaking of walking, it is spring in New York.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: It is beautiful outside.

[4:52] Laura Camien: Yes.

[4:53] Susan Blackwell: And I think I speak for both cams and myself when I say we have spring fever.

[4:58] Laura Camien: We've got spring fever for sure.

[5:00] Susan Blackwell: Spring fever.

[5:01] Laura Camien: Now, what happens in the city is that on like the first few warmest most wonderful days, as you know, everyone goes outside.

[5:09] Susan Blackwell: So for just a moment, it's both like joyful and oh my gosh, there's too many freaking people.

[5:16] Laura Camien: Don't stand so close to me.

[5:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but right now we're on like last week there were several really, really nice days.

[5:23] Laura Camien: Today was extraordinary, but like I was like, Wes, what's it like outside?

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: Is it like, is it crazy? Is everybody out there?

[5:30] Laura Camien: He's like, it's beautiful, and no, it's back to normal.

[5:33] Susan Blackwell: So now it's like the best of the best because it's a beautiful day and it's not too crazy.

[5:39] Laura Camien: I was trying to remember, you were up at my house for a creativity salon on Easter Sunday.

[5:45] Susan Blackwell: Why, yes, I was.

[5:47] Laura Camien: Do you remember were the trees still brown sticks?

[5:49] Susan Blackwell: Was it still brown sticks?

[5:51] Laura Camien: Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't really green, yeah.

[5:54] Susan Blackwell: Okay, it has papied.

[5:56] Laura Camien: Oh, it is completely like chartreuse.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: The valley is I love the papowy.

[6:03] Laura Camien: Oh, almost overnight.

[6:05] Susan Blackwell: It has exploded.

[6:07] Laura Camien: It is crazy.

[6:08] Susan Blackwell: And I don't know if I've ever mentioned this before, but down the road from where I live, there is a grove of trees that someone planted a long time ago that is now mature.

[6:19] Laura Camien: I made up a story that somebody planted it for somebody that they love.

[6:23] Susan Blackwell: I made up that story, but all the trees are different shades of pink blossoms.

[6:29] Laura Camien: So you have pale pink apple blossoms, and you have much, much darker, deeper reds, but they're all shades of pink and rose.

[6:37] Susan Blackwell: Cherry blossoms?

[6:38] Laura Camien: Yep.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: And it is the moment.

[6:40] Laura Camien: This is the moment when the pink orchard goes papowy.

[6:45] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[6:46] Laura Camien: It lasts for like a week.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, I made up a story that somebody made that for somebody that they loved.

[6:53] Laura Camien: Cause it's so I've never seen anything like it.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: I like that story.

[6:56] Laura Camien: In just like a little around a little house.

[6:58] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[6:59] Laura Camien: Yes.

[7:00] Susan Blackwell: It makes it magical.

[7:01] Laura Camien: It is beautiful.

[7:03] Susan Blackwell: And I've always had a little fantasy that I'm not brave enough to do of like knocking on their little door and just saying, Would you mind if we spent some time in your pink orchard?

[7:13] Laura Camien: And that sounds like a print song.

[7:16] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna spend some time in the pink orchard.

[7:20] Laura Camien: And take photos and stuff like that.

[7:22] Susan Blackwell: Because it's just unbelievable.

[7:24] Laura Camien: I've never seen anything like it.

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: Never seen anything like it.

[7:27] Laura Camien: So pretty.

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[7:28] Laura Camien: Anywho, we've got spring fever.

[7:30] Susan Blackwell: We really do.

[7:31] Laura Camien: We really do.

[7:33] Susan Blackwell: We've got a spark for you.

[7:34] Laura Camien: Laura, before we spark it up, any sparklets?

[7:38] Susan Blackwell: Anything to say?

[7:40] Laura Camien: You know, this is half baked, and probably half of what I'm about to say may not even be accurate, but there is something I wanted to share.

[7:49] Laura Camien: Several friends of mine who I frankly have not talked to in a long time, and that's not right.

[7:56] Laura Camien: But they're blue man people, and they started a podcast.

[8:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh, and it's called Ain't That a Pitch.

[8:00] Laura Camien: Ain't that a pitch?

[8:04] Susan Blackwell: And what but shared it with me, and I was like, well, this is super fun.

[8:08] Laura Camien: And it has like there are strains of it that I feel like it's a cousin.

[8:12] Susan Blackwell: I feel like we're like distantly related, the spark pile, and ain't that a pitch?

[8:17] Laura Camien: There's five of them.

[8:18] Susan Blackwell: It's Mike Brown and Bryce Flint Somerville, Jake Hart, Lizette Morris, and Raven Solomon.

[8:25] Laura Camien: Now I know Bryce and Mike.

[8:27] Susan Blackwell: I think I've met Raven.

[8:29] Laura Camien: I don't know, Lizette.

[8:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't think um, I don't think I've met Jake, but they're all right.

[8:34] Laura Camien: Lizette and Jake are like, we have had dinner together five times.

[8:38] Susan Blackwell: We've traveled the world news.

[8:42] Laura Camien: You don't remember we were in Paris together.

[8:45] Susan Blackwell: So so tell me about ain't that a pitch.

[8:48] Laura Camien: I like the title.

[8:49] Susan Blackwell: I do too.

[8:50] Laura Camien: And so they each bring like ideas that to me are like sparks, but they could be anything like just I thought of this, I thought of this humorous like idea, and I don't know what to do with it.

[9:01] Susan Blackwell: Or it could be like, I've been carrying around this idea for a screenplay for forever.

[9:06] Laura Camien: And then they all kind of like jump in and talk about it and writer's room style.

[9:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, sort of poke at it, improve upon it, offer ideas.

[9:17] Laura Camien: I mean, it's really, really, really fun.

[9:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I just wanted to shout it out.

[9:22] Laura Camien: I just want to shout it out in case anyone wants to check it out.

[9:26] Susan Blackwell: I will totally get in there and subscribe and listen.

[9:30] Laura Camien: I love a good that's another thing I like to listen to when I'm cleaning, when I'm walking, etc.

[9:36] Susan Blackwell: Is just a rolling conversation.

[9:40] Laura Camien: That I do I love that.

[9:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and a rolling conversation among really smart and really funny and really talented people.

[9:49] Laura Camien: And these are just top-notch human beings, and I enjoy it so much.

[9:53] Susan Blackwell: So that's plus Bryce is a really great artist.

[9:57] Laura Camien: So their posts always include like some artwork by him, hand-drawn stuff by him.

[10:04] Susan Blackwell: You know, what's more fucking delightful than that?

[10:07] Laura Camien: Ain't that a pitch?

[10:08] Susan Blackwell: Ain't that a pitch?

[10:10] Laura Camien: Nana can't remember.

[10:11] Susan Blackwell: Have we talked about let's process this?

[10:12] Laura Camien: Did we talk about that?

[10:14] Susan Blackwell: God, I can't remember either.

[10:15] Laura Camien: But you know what?

[10:16] Susan Blackwell: Let's tell the people again.

[10:17] Laura Camien: Maybe if we can't remember, maybe they can't either.

[10:19] Susan Blackwell: If we did, then please hear this again.

[10:23] Laura Camien: One of our great clients, the wonderful Chris Pappas, started a podcast called Let's Process This, now available wherever you get your podcasts.

[10:32] Susan Blackwell: And I fucking love this podcast.

[10:33] Laura Camien: Yes.

[10:34] Susan Blackwell: And I love the concept.

[10:36] Laura Camien: Smart people, a rolling conversation.

[10:39] Susan Blackwell: This is the concept.

[10:41] Laura Camien: Chris and his guests look back six months.

[10:45] Susan Blackwell: They look at the news six months ago.

[10:47] Laura Camien: And they're like, have we processed this?

[10:50] Susan Blackwell: And they just talk about it.

[10:51] Laura Camien: It's so true.

[10:52] Susan Blackwell: I feel like we have talked about this.

[10:54] Laura Camien: Like the way it trips your mind with what has happened just a scant six months ago.

[10:59] Susan Blackwell: Well, things are happening so fucking fast.

[11:02] Laura Camien: Yes.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: For several years there.

[11:04] Laura Camien: And maybe they still are kind of, but just felt like somebody hit fast forward on the news cycle a few years back.

[11:14] Susan Blackwell: And it was just nonstop.

[11:15] Laura Camien: And so I love the idea of like, now wait a minute, let's go back to this.

[11:20] Susan Blackwell: Have we processed this?

[11:21] Laura Camien: I'm pretty sure we have talked about it on this podcast because I think I'm about to say something that I said last time.

[11:27] Susan Blackwell: That's okay.

[11:27] Laura Camien: It'll really sink in this time.

[11:29] Susan Blackwell: A sentiment so nice.

[11:30] Laura Camien: I'm saying it twice.

[11:32] Susan Blackwell: It makes me there's a really, really funny segment on the podcast where he asks each of his guests to bring in something from their corner of the algorithm.

[11:43] Laura Camien: Yes, genius.

[11:45] Susan Blackwell: It delights me.

[11:47] Laura Camien: We have talked about this.

[11:48] Susan Blackwell: I'm losing my fucking mind.

[11:50] Laura Camien: Have we talked about you know what?

[11:52] Susan Blackwell: Well, I the thing is I spend all day with you, every day, all day, and we've talked about it numerous times.

[11:58] Laura Camien: So I just can't remember if we've said it on a recording.

[12:02] Susan Blackwell: Because I had no high described this.

[12:04] Laura Camien: I can picture myself describing this and recommending it to other people, and I just can't remember what's on Mike and what's off.

[12:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:12] Laura Camien: So just please forgive me and enjoy.

[12:15] Susan Blackwell: Let's process this.

[12:16] Laura Camien: That algorithm idea is really smart.

[12:18] Susan Blackwell: The whole thing's really smart, but you know, it's just easy to forget that other people aren't seeing what you're seeing every day.

[12:18] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[12:18] Susan Blackwell: Easy to forget that.

[12:28] Laura Camien: My sister was like, my TikTok algorithm spits up all of this knitting content.

[12:35] Susan Blackwell: Does yours?

[12:36] Laura Camien: And I was like, no, girl.

[12:38] Susan Blackwell: No.

[12:40] Laura Camien: And I'm sure, like, if I was a young Republican.

[12:43] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[12:44] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[12:45] Susan Blackwell: I'd be seeing some whole other different things.

[12:47] Laura Camien: That's exactly what they told us was going to happen.

[12:49] Susan Blackwell: Has happened and is happening every single day.

[12:52] Laura Camien: And that is our existing ideas, philosophies, and belief systems just keep getting back to us.

[13:02] Susan Blackwell: Echoing back to us.

[13:04] Laura Camien: They just keep getting validated.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: And you're just like, you're so right.

[13:08] Laura Camien: You're so right that everyone else is talking about how right you are.

[13:11] Susan Blackwell: Look at this.

[13:12] Laura Camien: You're right about this, you're right about this.

[13:14] Susan Blackwell: And you don't ever get the counterpoint unless you actively seek it.

[13:21] Laura Camien: So that's why you should listen to Let's Process This so that you can hear what's happening on their corner of the algorithm.

[13:26] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[13:27] Laura Camien: You can hear what but Wes and I do that all the time.

[13:29] Susan Blackwell: Wes will be like, I'm like, babe, what are you?

[13:32] Laura Camien: Babe, I love you if you're listening.

[13:34] Susan Blackwell: Um, but what are you looking at?

[13:36] Laura Camien: Your phone, like your phone all day.

[13:39] Susan Blackwell: And he's like, they're painting videos.

[13:42] Laura Camien: Look at this.

[13:43] Susan Blackwell: Oh, he's in his own little painting bubble.

[13:46] Laura Camien: It's beautiful.

[13:47] Susan Blackwell: Like his feed is like 90% people painting or creating in some way.

[13:54] Laura Camien: And I was like, well, that's joyful.

[13:56] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I see painting videos, and I want to forward them to Wes because I am a human algorithm who knows that he would like that.

[14:05] Laura Camien: Oh, he would love it.

[14:06] Susan Blackwell: You should.

[14:06] Laura Camien: You totally should.

[14:07] Susan Blackwell: Chris Pappas, just let us know when you want Laura Camien and I to come be your panelists on let's let's process this.

[14:14] Laura Camien: Because I have lots of things from my corner of the algorithm that I would like to share with your listeners.

[14:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God, it really does make me think what would I bring from my little corner of the world?

[14:25] Laura Camien: You think on it.

[14:26] Susan Blackwell: Think about it.

[14:28] Laura Camien: In the meantime, would you like a spark?

[14:30] Susan Blackwell: I would love a spark.

[14:32] Laura Camien: Putting up cooking over there.

[14:33] Susan Blackwell: Let's get into it.

[14:35] Susan Blackwell: So this is a topic Laura that I have been thinking about for a long time. And the spark is the idea of taking our creative work from good to great. So what exactly do I mean when I say good to great? I'm talking about taking our creative work from good, decent, passable, maybe even strong, solid to something that is undeniable, transporting, cathartic, and maybe even transcendent.

[15:13] Susan Blackwell: So we all know great when we see it, right?

[15:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:18] Susan Blackwell: A storyteller or a stand-up who is so funny that our bodies just relax because we know we are in great hands. Or a musician whose composition brings us to tears in like three minutes or less or a piece of choreography that makes us squeak with delight or a documentary that is deep and dark but it's so well done that we can handle the deepness in the darkness. Or something that we can't stop thinking about in a great way, our mind just continually peeling back the layers of that artist's creative onion. I would say for me, like when I see a show and I can't wait to see it again. And my immediate thought upon leaving is like, I want to bring so and so to the show. I want to come back with so and so. That's what I'm talking about.

[16:06] Laura Camien: Yes.

[16:07] Susan Blackwell: That is what I'm talking about.

[16:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:09] Susan Blackwell: So this concept of aiming, like being at good and aiming for great is complicated because I think it can really fuck with people's minds. So right at the outset, I want to be clear. When I talk about aiming for creative greatness, by greatness, I don't mean fame. I don't mean fame, and I don't mean aiming for perfection.

[16:33] Laura Camien: Sorry, you're about to say what you mean, but I was gonna jump in with what I think you mean.

[16:38] Susan Blackwell: Go ahead.

[16:40] Laura Camien: Mastering your craft, like being uh not perfect, but being, yeah, really knowing your craft.

[16:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. I think there's a there's a lot of different dimensions to it. And before we dig into it, I want to I want to talk about this perfect piece, just in case anybody's brain is going there. Uh-huh. And I when we talk about going from good to great, we're not talking about aiming for perfect. Perfect is an unattainable, unhappy making target. And to illustrate this, a while back, I was listening to an episode of Cara Loenthiel's podcast, Unfuck Your Brain.

[17:19] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[17:20] Susan Blackwell: And she shared a concept that really lit this up for me. And it's an idea that Laura and I have often quoted and misquoted. If you don't know Cara Loenthiel, she's a life coach who has a BA from Yale and a JD from Harvard Law. And her coaching is rooted in cognitive psychology-based techniques and feminist theory. And you can learn more about Kara and her work at UnfuckYourbrain.com, which is perhaps one of the greatest URLs ever claimed.

[17:50] Laura Camien: Love it.

[17:51] Susan Blackwell: Isn't it great? So the concept that Kara shared that really struck me is this. A-work out the door beats A plus work every single time. A minus work out the door beats A plus work every single time. Kara explains that when she started as a coach, she was coming off a decade in law school and clerking. And as we know, lawyers are trained to get everything precisely right, right down to the punctuation. So she thought she needed to make everything perfect before she put it out in the world. And that really held her back. For instance, she was aiming to start a podcast at that time. And because she'd never done a podcast before, and she didn't know how to do a podcast perfectly, and she didn't really know what perfect was when it came to podcasting, she ended up not launching her podcast for a year because she had perfectionism paralysis.

[18:54] Susan Blackwell: But then she finally took the leap, and two years into her podcast, on the 100th episode, she shared this. You don't need to do A plus work or even A work. A minus work is what makes the world go round. And by A-work, she meant work that isn't perfect. According to Kara, A minus could be better, but you don't spend your time perfecting it. You know it's probably not organized as perfectly as it could be. You realize three days after you record your podcast that you forgot to make one of your main points, and you let it go. And here's why you let it go. If you could actually produce perfect A plus work, that would be one thing. If that was a true option that you could do A plus work and get it out the door, that would also be something.

But you can't. A plus work is an illusion. It doesn't really exist. And if you just accept that the work is going to be A minus from the jump, you would have done it in one tenth of the time and skipped all the procrastinating and avoiding that can be tied to aiming for A plus work. So in summary, A minus out the door is better than A plus work that never happens. A minus out the door is better than A plus work that never happens. And all of that was from the brilliant mind of Cara Loenthiel. Please check her out at unfuckyourbrain.com.

[20:27] Susan Blackwell: So all of that is yes. The Sparkfile would not exist without this concept. You know, there were just so many things that we're like, well, we have a vision of, you know, some grand vision of this perfect, whatever the case may be, a perfect plan for the next year, a perfect curriculum, a perfect podcast, or whatever. And none of it, none of it is perfect, but it's only in the world because we were able to let it go at B plus or A minus. And highly competent people, truly, your B plus or your A minus is as strong, if not stronger than you know, 95% of the work out there.

[21:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:18] Laura Camien: Can I say one other thing about it? It's like an addendum. It's a little bit of a cousin to this idea.

[21:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[21:24] Laura Camien: It has been my experience over a long time of collaborative work. Collaborating with you, Suze, yes, but prior to that, you know, 20 some years in this collaborative environment in Blue Man group. And one of the things that I feel like this rule applies more than ever, if you're in a collaborative relationship. Because I know when I like whether at Blue Man or even with you, if I'm the first person, like I'm gonna draft this email blast, or I'm gonna draft this web copy or this curriculum. And I'm going to pass it to you, and you are going to have thoughts and ideas that you want to incorporate, and then it's going to come back to me. And so on and so forth until we both say, I think it's done.

If I obsess about it being perfect, when I hand it to you, I do two things. Number one, like it or not, I get very, very attached to it as it is, because I'm like, it is perfect. I have sculpted this perfectly. And then what that does to your partner is make it more challenging for them to add a note or chisel off a little piece because it's like, oh no, I'm very aware that I'm just my partner is very precious about this. And so I just can't even tell you if you're planning on collaborating with anyone in any way, the very best thing that you can do, if you're if you're presenting work, present B plus. There's room there for someone else to add ideas and make it even better without you feeling like, oh, but you've changed my masterpiece.

And then vice versa. Then after they add on to it, and then you add on to it again. Nobody is treating their work like this was the you know most supreme example of my work ever. And how could you how could you change it? Does that make sense?

[23:36] Susan Blackwell: It sure does.

[23:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[23:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I love that. So, yes, to be clear, we're not talking about aiming for a plus perfect work. In this spark, what we're interested in is addressing the gap between good and great as it relates to our creative work. So first, I'm just curious. Uh, just there's these questions that I have in my mind. When should we aim for good? And when should we aim for great? Because in every case, it's not necessary to aim for great.

[24:12] Laura Camien: That's right.

[24:13] Susan Blackwell: And also, this is a purely subjective choice, but I think there are a few determining factors that I believe are relevant when you're asking yourself, what am I aiming for here? Am I aiming for good? Am I aiming for B? A minus A?

[24:30] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[24:30] Susan Blackwell: So here's a few factors that I think are relevant to me. The discipline, the content, the form, the intended audience, and the stakes are a few determining factors. So let's unpack these one by one. We're going to start with the discipline.

[24:51] Laura Camien: When we are working in a creative discipline that is more complex and requires extensive study to master, or extensive time to practice and craft, you are going to want to give those disciplines the attention and time and study that they require. Talent is going to take you so far, and then you're going to have to clock your hours to get you to great. So I'm talking about disciplines like opera, which combines singing, acting, orchestral music, foreign language skills, just to name a few. Opera is a highly complex and demanding discipline that requires simultaneous mastery of many skill sets. And it's not just opera, jazz improvisation, the ability to think on your feet, to respond to other musicians in real time, to create new melodies and harmonies quickly and on the spot.

Architecture, which is highly technical and artistic, and it requires a deep understanding of materials and engineering and design principles, as well as a strong sense of creativity and artistic vision. Same with fashion design, photography, filmmaking, which is highly collaborative and complex. It involves the coordination of many different elements, including writing, acting, cinematography, editing, sound design. Writing requires a deep understanding of language, narrative structure, storytelling, research, research, as well as a strong sense of creativity and originality. And mastering writing can take years of practice and involves a constant process of revision and refinement. Musical theater writing and composition, graphic design, ballet, like I could go on and on and on.

[26:38] Susan Blackwell: Actually, let's use graphic design as an example. Graphic design is a highly technical and artistic discipline that involves the creation of visual content for a variety of mediums, including print and digital. To be great at graphic design, you have to have a strong understanding of design principles, typography, color theory, as well as technical proficiency with design software, which isn't to say I can't be good or even very good at using Canva. And because I haven't devoted my life to being great at the discipline of graphic design, being good at Canva is good enough for me.

[27:21] Laura Camien: It should be just fine.

[27:23] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. That's all you need.

[27:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:25] Susan Blackwell: What I'm talking about is if you want to be great at graphic design or any discipline, you're probably going to have to put in your hours to gain mastery of that discipline.

[27:36] Laura Camien: 100%.

[27:37] Susan Blackwell: And so when you say like these are the factors to consider, I guess the question around discipline would be like, is this the discipline that you feel passionate that you want to be great at? Or is this just a proficiency that you might be like, I'm pretty good at this, and that's that's great because that's all I need. I need to know how to update my website. I need to make I need to make some social posts, but I don't need to be great.

[28:05] Laura Camien: Great.

[28:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:08] Susan Blackwell: Another factor in determining whether good is good enough or whether you want to aim for great is the content. I'm curious if you have this experience, CamS.

[28:19] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[28:20] Susan Blackwell: I know I do. There is certain content, certain sparks for me where good is good enough. So for instance, I might be very sparked by Hilma off Clint. Let's use Hilma as an example. I might be sparked by Hilma, and I might want to do a good job at bringing her story to this podcast. And I'm gonna do my best with that. And I'm gonna get that A minus work out the door. Now, if the spark instead of Hilma is a story about a very formative experience that I had as a child. And I'll use the example of I grew up in a hoarding house. So to me, it's complex, it's a bit hot to the touch, it's a bit visceral. It's something that I want to treat with care and honor and present it with nuance so that it has impact and meaning in the world.

[29:13] Laura Camien: And I'm going to aim to be great with that content.

[29:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[29:18] Laura Camien: And that's not to say that Hilma off Climped isn't worthy of aiming for greatness. That is strong content. And there have been entire Guggenheim shows and operas focused on Hilma that really aimed for and I think achieved greatness. But for me, good was good enough for Hilma. And I'm using my premium octane fuel and aiming for great with what I would consider high value content for me. And only I can determine what's high value to me. But I will also say I know a high value spark when I see it. And usually you'll hear me say, that's a hot spark.

[29:56] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[29:56] Laura Camien: Yeah. Which is to me a spark that not only is worthy of aiming for great, but may have like the seed of greatness in it. Does that make sense?

[30:05] Susan Blackwell: Well, yes, it does. And I think that oftentimes you'll say it's a hot spark, especially when the person who has shared it with us feels it like you can tell they feel it viscerally and passionately. And you can say that's a hot spark.

[30:21] Laura Camien: Not for me, not for me. I mean to write, but that is a hot spark for you to write.

[30:25] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[30:26] Laura Camien: And it like aligns with your being, your skill set, your, you know, your interests, and you should pursue that.

[30:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:34] Laura Camien: 100%.

[30:35] Susan Blackwell: And I have the, yes, I do have those parts of the case. I feel like you and I have talked. Yeah, I have some I haven't done yet because I know I've talked a million times about being a child of a narcissist. And I want to do a spark about it because I think it affects so many people. And I, it's one of those where like the barrier to entry for me is this. Like I, if I'm gonna do it, I want it to be great.

[30:59] Laura Camien: You want it to be great.

[31:00] Susan Blackwell: If it's gonna be great, it's gonna take a lot of time. And then I end up not tackling that as a spark.

[31:09] Laura Camien: I would hypo I would posit that you have tackled that spark, not on the spark file, but you've tackled it with great care in your playwriting and in your screenwriting.

[31:22] Susan Blackwell: Well, well, well, Susie B. You're doing that that brings us to our next determining factor when it comes to aiming for great, and that is the form.

[31:25] Laura Camien: The form.

[31:36] Susan Blackwell: So, what do I mean by that? Laura and I have this chatty podcast that is purposefully designed not to aim for perfection. This podcast is by design a form that welcomes, embraces informality and imperfection.

[31:53] Laura Camien: I'm just laughing because I I just had I was just picturing some listener out there like, really? I did I I mean, because I thought it was so perfect.

[32:01] Susan Blackwell: This is a here's like a this is a little side spark though. The amount of preparation that goes into this podcast is not insignificant, and the amount of post-production that goes into it is not insignificant.

[32:15] Laura Camien: That's correct.

[32:16] Susan Blackwell: And so it's worth mentioning that even with something like this that is not aiming for perfection, and it really isn't, we still are trying to bring quality.

[32:29] Laura Camien: Like yes, we want it to be quality, but we also want to do it with ease.

[32:35] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And allow ourselves the freedom of mistakes and frankly, authenticity, because we knew if we were gonna make something, we would have to be our be able to be ourselves. So it didn't feel like, oh, it's time to record, it's time to put on that other personality we have.

[32:50] Laura Camien: That's right.

[32:51] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so back to form. So here we have this chatty podcast, not aim not aiming for perfection. If I did discuss what I consider to be a high value spark on the podcast, I'm going to treat that high value spark differently if I decide I'm going to write it into a musical.

[33:11] Laura Camien: Oh, wait. Do you mean you wouldn't share it on this podcast?

[33:15] Susan Blackwell: Or if you decided to Nope. Talking about form, I would share it on this podcast. I may handle it differently depending on the form.

[33:27] Laura Camien: Making a musical.

[33:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So 100%. So for instance, let's again use an example. That high value spark from my life growing up in a hoarding house, to me, again, it's nuanced, it's visceral. It matters to me that that story is told in a meaningful way that sheds light on the topic and ultimately lifts people up and is of service to them. So when I'm sharing that story on this podcast in this form, very good might be very, very good might be good enough. But if I'm writing that same spark into the form of a piece of musical theater, I'm aiming for great.

[33:59] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[33:59] Susan Blackwell: I'm aiming for great. The musical theater form is more complex with music and voices and multiple collaborators and a live audience potentially, and down the line recording and licensing and hopefully a lifelong after I'm gone, which is to say legacy. So depending on the form, I'm gonna handle it differently, even though I may handle it for the podcast with great care.

[34:31] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[34:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Absolutely. But there is a more casualness to it and what you're what you're capable of doing for emotional impact with that same topic in musical theater is so much greater. You know that you're capable of it and would push for greatness.

[34:50] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[34:51] Susan Blackwell: So another example of a spark where form was very important to me is something I've talked about on the podcast before. It's a piece that I wrote called The Golden Palace. So that featured my dad's story, and because of that, it felt very important to me.

[35:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[35:07] Susan Blackwell: And I wanted to honor all of that with a form and thoughtfulness and composition and collaborators and musicians who could bring my interior vision of that to life. So if you're aiming to take your work to great, think about the form that it wants to take.

[35:18] Laura Camien: Think about the form that it wants to take. You know, it also strikes me as we have seen and talked to many clients about as you're exploring an idea, it may take a certain form. As you wrap your arms around it, as you begin to envision what it's capable of, what you're capable of, you may then decide to explore it in another form where you can take it to the next level.

[35:53] Susan Blackwell: And I think that's really exciting too. And it's an important step to allow yourself to explore it first, maybe. I mean, we do it naturally. You might explore it first in conversation.

[36:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:03] Susan Blackwell: Um sharing some stories over dinner, seeing like, is this interesting to other people? What piques their interest? And continuing to let it evolve until it becomes the greatest thing that it wants to be, that you or that you feel inspired to make it.

[36:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:21] Susan Blackwell: Another determining factor when it comes to uh figuring out when good is good enough and when you want to aim for great is your intended audience. So for instance, if you're asked to speak at a local middle school's career day and you're asked to give a speech at the National Speakers Association annual convention, you may determine that good is good enough for one, and for the other, you want to do what you need to do to aim for great.

[36:53] Laura Camien: And that could be for reasons connected to personal pride, professional advancement, you name it. Like I mean, am I crazy? I mean, I'm always I'm always aiming for B plus. And then there are times when I'm like, A game baby. Yeah, this is the A game.

[37:11] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely.

[37:11] Laura Camien: And sometimes it's tied to audience.

[37:13] 100%.

[37:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it can be. And it doesn't even have to be a high profile event. It might be your favorite sibling's wedding, and you are giving the toast and feel incredibly attached to delivering like your A game to for the benefit of this person you love and for the audience of like your whole family and friends.

[37:40] Laura Camien: That's right. 100%. And making a memory. I remember we have a wonderful client and friend, John Ellison Conley, who was at a family function. And John can write rhyming raps like and he did this thing where it was like, you know, he blew it out of the water at like a family function.

[38:01] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:02] Laura Camien: And yeah, yeah. So it audience doesn't have to mean fancy.

[38:07] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[38:07] Laura Camien: It doesn't have to mean that. It just means that it's for some reason meaningful.

[38:12] Susan Blackwell: Meaningful to you.

[38:12] Laura Camien: That's right. Um, another example. I like to paint. I've talked about it on the podcast before. I like to paint just for me.

[38:20] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:21] Laura Camien: And people say, you should post these on social or you should sell these on Etsy. And I don't want to. My intended audience is me.

[38:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:30] Laura Camien: My husband and anyone who visits my house.

[38:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:33] Laura Camien: And as such, I haven't really, I think it might be fun, but I haven't felt deeply inclined to go back, hone my skills to study painting with a, you know, with a teacher. Though though that might be fun, I don't know that I'll ever aim for great. Since the intended audience is me.

[38:54] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:55] Laura Camien: For me to look out when I go to the bathroom. I have a new painting that I did hanging over my toilet right now. I'm good with good.

[39:01] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[39:01] Laura Camien: And sometimes sometimes aiming for great, actually, most of the time that I can think of, it comes it does come with pressure. It does come with the requirement of 10,000 hours and it and it feels different. It can be incredible and rewarding when you achieve it, but it's a lot of work to get there.

[39:20] Susan Blackwell: So sometimes the biggest gift you can give yourself is like, I will enjoy my painting more if I'm just aiming for good.

[39:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:27] Susan Blackwell: And that in and of itself is great.

[39:29] Laura Camien: Yeah. And even the pleasure of doing it.

[39:32] Susan Blackwell: And not there's nothing neurotic about it.

[39:33] Laura Camien: There's yeah, yeah.

[39:34] Susan Blackwell: Not to say that you if in aiming for great that you have to be neurotic, because I don't think you do. Um, just another example of this. This is gonna be a really name-dropy anecdote. So I apologize in advance.

[39:46] Laura Camien: Sorry.

[39:49] Susan Blackwell: So I remember seeing Hamilton off Broadway at the public, and it was fan fucking tastic.

[39:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:56] Susan Blackwell: And then it was headed for Broadway, and uh, this is so name-dropping, but I recall that Lynn Manuel was over at my apartment, and he was like, I know I need to get into I need to get it into shape before Broadway. I gotta do that. Like he was talking about Yeah, what he needed to do to make it great.

[40:13] Laura Camien: Yeah, but he hadn't done it yet. And at that point, I think we knew by then that Jonathan Gropp was going to play the king. And because of what Lynn had shared with me, I was like, hey Grof, how's Hamilton shaping up? Have you guys made big changes? And I remember Groff saying, it's more like Hamilton lost 20 pounds and got a tan. And I knew what he meant. In subtle ways, Lynn and Tommy Kale and that team had worked to take it from very, very good to great, because they knew that once it opened on Broadway in front of that essentially global audience.

[40:52] Laura Camien: Yes, that's largely how the world would come to know it.

[40:56] Susan Blackwell: So the intended audience and the stakes motivated their aim towards great.

[41:02] Laura Camien: Absolutely. And can we talk about that for a minute? Because I think that there can be a temptation. You know, they had, like you said, a very, very, very, very, very good run off Broadway.

[41:15] Susan Blackwell: They sure did.

[41:16] Laura Camien: I would say a pretty extraordinary run off Broadway. Word of mouth was extraordinary. Reviews were extraordinary. So some people might be like, it's great. It's great. Uh it's good. I don't need to. But it's that thing that you're talking about in this spark that that person, Lynn, Tommy Kale, everybody, you know, people involved that I'm sure Jeffrey Seller, everyone who who watched it, who were like, okay, and now how do we next level it?

[41:51] Susan Blackwell: And the next level, yeah, it might be shaving off making some some, you know, highly technical cuts. It might be uh the pacing, it might be things that uh to a layman might be like, I didn't, I I didn't realize you made any changes in that stuff I didn't even notice the changes.

[42:12] Laura Camien: That's right.

[42:13] Susan Blackwell: But when you're seeking greatness, yes, like you don't skimp on doing that work.

[42:21] Laura Camien: Listen to the voice of Laura Cammy. I think a lot of people can be seduced by positive feedback and they can they can fall into this trap of thinking, well, I've gotten so much positive feedback that I don't want to do anything that messes with that.

[42:42] Susan Blackwell: So it's great as it's done.

[42:45] Laura Camien: And not to torment you, dear listener, but there's you look at Hamilton's a great example. They were like, it's really, really good. And they knew that it could be better. And I remember, I can't remember if it was talking to Lynn or talking to Tommy, but one of them was like, it's not about taking time off, which is a real go-to.

[43:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you need to get a half an hour.

[43:09] Laura Camien: That's a real go-to in the theater, especially.

[43:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, they were like, it's not about that. Time will probably will probably shed time, but it isn't about that. It's about these very strategic edits and ordering and nuancing that takes it to great.

[43:28] Laura Camien: It's like sharpening everything.

[43:30] Susan Blackwell: 20 pounds in a 10.

[43:39] Susan Blackwell: And she would talk about this dynamic all the time. She's like, some directors, you have as the actor, you have to interpret what they mean, similar to that note of like, cut 30 minutes off. She'll say, like a director might say, I need you to do the scene faster. Just faster. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, okay, if you a smart actor takes that note and questions, what are they really talking about? Translates it. Yeah. I don't think it's speed. I think it's intention. I think it's, you know, clarity, whatever the case may be. And she's like, I have seen people turn right around and do a scene slower, but with more intensity and more clarity. And the director is like, that's it. That's perfect.

Right. Even though it runs counter to what the director said. Exactly. Exactly. Because speed, it's not, it's not typically just the speed of it or the time, I mean. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. And you learn the specificity of those things by doing the time, by putting the work in, by understanding, like you understand what things are code for.

[44:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:50] Susan Blackwell: Time takes time. Um, so another motivator to consider when you want to take your creative work from good to great, as I just mentioned with Hamilton, stakes.

[45:04] Laura Camien: Yes.

[45:04] Susan Blackwell: In my experience, the higher the stakes, the more motivated I am to move my work towards great. Now, this can be a tricky juncture because high stakes can also throw a person, I'll use myself as an example, into the red zone, into fear and sometimes into shutting down. But if you can hang in and keep your nervous system de-excited and remain functional and creative and flowing, then increased stakes can be a great motivator to move towards great. Now, maybe you know that you want to take your work from good to great, but you're not sure how to do so. You're not sure what approach to take. So here are some ideas. These are actually distilled from a book. It is a book, a business book that is called Good to Great by Jim Collins.

Good to Great is this business book that was really hot when I worked in corporate for 20 million years. But I think that some of it actually applies to creatives as well. And if you're not familiar with this book, this book identified 11 companies that made the transition from being average to being truly great over a 15 year period. And then the book analyzed what these companies did differently from their peers. And I've adapted these concepts because I really do believe they apply to creativity. And P.S., if you were ever with me in any of those 8 a.m. weekly staff meetings when we were talking about this book, this application, this translation to creativity is what I was thinking about to keep myself awake and sane. So there you go. And thanks to my past corporate life for giving me this reference.

[46:45] Laura Camien: So to move your creative project towards great, you'll want to be or have a creative leader or a discussion partner who possesses a blend of humility and creative will. Someone who is focused on the success of the project or the team rather than their own personal success.

[47:06] Susan Blackwell: So this might be you. This might be you, or it might be a director or a dramaturg or a coach or a discussion partner. But it is somebody who has that blend of personal humility, but strong creative will and who is focused on the success of the project, the team, or the piece rather than their own personal success.

[47:28] Laura Camien: Okay.

[47:29] Susan Blackwell: Yep. Yep. Ingredient number one.

[47:31] Laura Camien: Okay.

[47:32] Susan Blackwell: Check. If there is more than one person on this project, this creative endeavor, you want to aim to get the right people on the creative bus in the right seats, which is to say a great creative team should be made up of the right people with the necessary skills and passion for the project in the right roles. And your focus should be on engaging the best people that you can for the project and then figuring out how to leverage their skills and strengths to achieve success.

[48:04] Laura Camien: Yes.

[48:04] Susan Blackwell: And Suze, if I may share just a tiny word of advice from someone who's, you know, done a lot of things with a lot of people.

[48:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[48:14] Susan Blackwell: If you sense that like this person that you really, really want on the project isn't 100% passionate about it. Maybe they feel like, oh, because of your friendship, they should do it, or because they love you. And don't do it. Don't do it. Find the people who are 100% passionate about this project and together take it all the way.

[48:44] Laura Camien: Sounds like you're speaking from experience, or Camille.

[48:47] Susan Blackwell: Well, I mean, I think you could probably name a few times too, where it's like, I really wanted that person, or sometimes, Suze, uh, somebody really wanted me, and I wanted to be the person that they needed. I wanted to feel as passionate about that. And I so I would say I probably more often have been that person who's like, I shouldn't have said yes to this.

[49:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:11] Susan Blackwell: Because I don't feel this in my DNA, that like this is the project I must be doing. And then I got better at determining that and saying no, because you disappoint someone on the front end, but you don't disappoint them all along the way.

[49:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think that's a great point. Another great point, and this is probably the most important takeaway. So I'm if you've just been casually listening as you like as you walk jog, then it's time to tune in or came in.

[49:44] Laura Camien: Oh, okay.

[49:44] Susan Blackwell: I'm ready now. So this is summed up in what is known as the Stockdale paradox. And if that sounds familiar to you, it's because I shared the Stockdale paradox on an episode of this podcast on the topic of resilience. Per the Stockdale paradox, named after Admiral Jim Stockdale, who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for seven years. You should be willing to confront the brutal facts of your current reality while still maintaining an unwavering belief in your ability to succeed.

[50:21] Laura Camien: Ooh, I'm gonna say it again. You should be willing to confront the brutal facts of your current reality while still maintaining an unwavering belief in your ability to succeed.

[50:34] Susan Blackwell: Do you mean, Suze, that so you don't need to put like a Pollyanna spin on the fact that you know you need a full time job and you've got like the there isn't money in the bank to do this. This is the like the reality of my situation is this, and yet, I still believe I can be great.

[50:54] Laura Camien: Or, or or I need singing lessons in order to do this, all of the above.

[50:59] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm. So, like, yes, my voice isn't as strong as it needs to be, referring to myself, in order for me to do this musical that I want to be in. So I need to confront the brutal truth about that and still maintain that unwavering belief in my ability to succeed. You should be honest with yourself about the weaknesses of your ideas, your project, your structure, et cetera, and be willing to face and address any issues that may arise and also maintain this unwavering faith.

[51:41] Laura Camien: You know, Suze, that I mean, it kind of reminds me of that, like kill your babies or kill your darlings in writing. Like, I think about those times when some people can identify like a weakness and be like, this part might be overwritten. And sort of like, but that could be okay. And maybe no one will know. We could brush that under the rug. No, that is the moment where you say, No, no, no.

[52:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[52:07] Laura Camien: It is over.

[52:08] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[52:09] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's right. So I'm gonna say this one more time, a different way. This requires a willingness to receive and act on constructive feedback and a focus on continuous improvement, all while maintaining unwavering faith in yourself, in the project, etc.

[52:29] Susan Blackwell: And I know as I say these words, this is not easy.

[52:34] Laura Camien: It is not.

[52:35] Susan Blackwell: There are times this week when I have been like, uh, my faith has wavered, and I'm like, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. Like you have to face the challenges that are in front of you. And you must continue to believe in your ability to do this project and the project itself. And it's a tricky paradox, but it's a strong enough concept that it got Admiral Jim Stockdale through seven years in a brutal situation as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

[53:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[53:16] Susan Blackwell: And so if it's good enough for him, it's um it's really, I feel like it's really something to hold on to.

[53:22] Laura Camien: Agreed.

[53:23] Susan Blackwell: Agreed. Because the pain that we're talking about of you know, critical feedback, this is manageable pain. It is not, in fact, the pain that he experienced. Um, we can survive it.

[53:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[53:38] Susan Blackwell: And when you say the taking of receiving and contemplating constructive feedback, it does not mean take everyone's feedback and try to change everything that anyone mentioned. The ability to take that feedback, hear it, and determine the next steps that are right for this project. Sometimes you get constructive feedback, and what you realize is, oh no, that's not the show. That's not the show that I'm trying to write. And so if that's not the show that you're trying to write, what are you trying to write? And how can it be more clear? It's all information.

[54:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[54:22] Susan Blackwell: Lastly, to move towards great, you must maintain a commitment to building momentum over time. All of this takes time. But listen, regarding time, we've said this before, we'll say it again. Whether you aim towards great or not, time will still advance. God willing, you'll still be another year older. And depending on the course you've committed to, your work will either be good, decent, passable, maybe even strong, solid, or maybe, depending on how you set your sights, your work will advance towards something that is undeniable, transporting, cathartic, transcendent, not perfect, but great.

[55:04] Laura Camien: And that is my spark.

[55:07] Susan Blackwell: Susie B, I love it.

[55:09] Laura Camien: I love it.

[55:10] Susan Blackwell: It's not easy.

[55:12] Laura Camien: It's not easy.

[55:14] Susan Blackwell: It's not easy, but none of this is. So if you're gonna do it, choose which things you want to be great at.

[55:21] Laura Camien: That's right.

[55:22] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes good is so good, very good is very good. And then there are times when it's like it is depending on how you want to use your time on the planet. I think there are times when it is worthwhile to if all of those pieces are there, or some of those pieces are there to go for it, to go for great.

[55:33] Laura Camien: Go for great.

[55:33] Susan Blackwell: To go for great.

[55:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:47] Susan Blackwell: What a great spark, Suze.

[55:49] Laura Camien: Thank you so much.

[55:50] Susan Blackwell: Good to great.

[55:51] Laura Camien: Good to great.

[55:52] Susan Blackwell: Who knew that old, oh god, those early morning staff meetings where I was just like, how can I translate this so it makes it worth my while and I don't lose my mind?

[56:06] Laura Camien: Look at you now.

[56:07] Susan Blackwell: How many years later? Pulling that out of my spark.

[56:11] Laura Camien: Spark file.

[56:12] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[56:13] Laura Camien: I'm so happy you did.

[56:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, friends. That's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[56:24] Laura Camien: Hey, listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, you can email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback.

[56:46] Susan Blackwell: First, you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[56:50] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really, really helps other listeners to find us. And if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, rip off those headphones and go run outside in the spring weather.

[57:10] Susan Blackwell: That might bring you some joy.

[57:11] Laura Camien: Oh, that sounds delightful.

[57:13] Susan Blackwell: That's what we're about to do either way.

[57:15] Laura Camien: Right.

[57:16] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[57:25] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[57:30] Susan Blackwell: You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[57:35] Laura Camien: Bye, friends.

[57:36] Susan Blackwell: Bye, friends.

[57:37] Laura Camien: Go get great.

[57:38] Susan Blackwell: Go get great.

[57:39] Laura Camien: Go get great.

[57:40] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[57:49] Laura Camien: Spark could be something that I wanna take, or how I wanna be.

[57:55] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[58:00] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark file.

[58:04] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark fire.