This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] The Sparks File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Please use your discretion.

[0:09] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:17] Susan Blackwell: Spark to be something that I want to make or how I want to be.

[0:23] Laura Camien: I pump it in my sparks.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump in my sparks.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up this spark file.

[0:37] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't do it alone.

[0:43] I'm Laura Camien and I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:46] If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:49] If you're joining us for the first time, know that all are welcome here.

[0:52] Susan Blackwell: Indeed.

[0:53] Laura Camien: Whether you've put your creativity on pause during this time or you've clung to it like a lifeline.

[0:59] Welcome.

[1:00] Susan Blackwell: Welcome.

[1:01] But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:04] Where do I get one?

[1:05] What do I file in it?

[1:06] These are such good questions, and we do have answers.

[1:06] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:14] And here's the deal.

[1:15] We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:18] If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now.

[1:28] But don't despair, sparklers.

[1:30] We are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:37] Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:44] Or a cross-country quest in search of a 250-year-old mystery.

[1:51] Oh.

[1:53] I smell treasure.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: Or a space where we can face our fear, be uncomfortable, and learn more and maybe help others to heal.

[2:06] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:07] Every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks.

[2:11] And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:15] And if you're not careful, you just might grow and change.

[2:19] So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Cammy!

[2:26] Laura Camien: I can never get over how we say file, like it's two syllables.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: And we're children.

[2:33] Laura Camien: Hi, Kim.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: Hi.

[2:35] How are you doing?

[2:36] Happy recording day.

[2:38] Laura Camien: I'm good.

[2:39] Happy recording day to you.

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: That's now in the public domain.

[2:44] So I'm free to sing.

[2:45] Happy recording day to you.

[2:46] Laura Camien: Free to sing it.

[2:47] Susan Blackwell: As freedom.

[2:48] Or I'd have to pay right royalties on Happy Recording Day to you.

[2:53] But here we are.

[2:54] Um, how are you doing, Kim?

[2:56] Laura Camien: I'm doing good.

[2:57] I'm excited as I often am on these days.

[3:01] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited.

[3:02] Laura Camien: Yes.

[3:03] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[3:04] Um, me too.

[3:05] I do look forward to these days.

[3:07] And usually there is some sort of kept you waiting for a little while because I was so deep in my spark.

[3:14] Laura Camien: And I was like, I just have to find a pencils down place.

[3:17] Susan Blackwell: Like I'm not gonna be able to completely solve this spark today.

[3:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:22] You know, I think that's something that is so um good to point out.

[3:28] Uh we're so aware when we do these sparks, I think, that we're on all of them.

[3:34] We're really just like tip of the iceberg, you know.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: We're like investigating the surface level stuff that like hit us in the face and maybe going like a layer deeper, and then we're like, oh, and and we're and we gotta go.

[3:48] Laura Camien: And pencils down and pencils down, yeah, pencils down.

[3:51] But I think that's enough to get a spark going and for anyone who feels you know, like enticed by it to go deeper and take something out of it and make something from it.

[4:02] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely.

[4:03] The reason why, and I'll talk more about this when we get into it, but I was just like, this feels very important.

[4:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, and it feels like something that I really want to uh do, like honor and do correctly.

[4:18] Susan Blackwell: And so I was just like, oh boy.

[4:20] Those are the hardest.

[4:21] Laura Camien: Those are the hardest.

[4:22] Susan Blackwell: Because it doesn't feel good.

[4:23] And I think we both have some of those things in our spark file that we're like, oh, in order to do this one, I feel like I would need to dedicate the entire episode to me or multiple episodes.

[4:34] Laura Camien: Like it's its own.

[4:35] Susan Blackwell: We'll have some like spring, we'll have some like spin-off um podcast stuff.

[4:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:42] Susan Blackwell: It's not a bad idea.

[4:43] Laura Camien: That is not a bad idea, actually.

[4:45] Susan Blackwell: It could happen.

[4:46] Laura Camien: It could happen.

[4:47] Is there anything I want to tell you?

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: I'm super excited about some of the things that we are cooking up and preparing in terms of uh just I just feel like there's so much uh goodness on the horizon.

[5:02] Laura Camien: There's so much goodness on the horizon, lots of things to announce and share with everyone in due time.

[5:08] But I think mostly it's worth noting like progress during a pandemic feels like clawing and scratching your way to the finish line, you know.

[5:21] Susan Blackwell: And I feel proud of us for continuing to do that.

[5:25] And I know there's a lot of people out there who are like are maybe having a good day and feeling like they're making progress during this pandemic, and others who are like, I'm on a downswing right now and not feeling that.

[5:36] Laura Camien: Um, but it's really just one little step at a time, you know, and being kind and patient.

[5:42] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and also let's and celebrating some of the whatever you want to call them, some of the wins, some of the things that you know do get done.

[5:52] Laura Camien: I was moderating a panel of theater makers.

[5:57] Big I think there were people that were there were some recognizable people on that little panel there.

[6:03] Susan Blackwell: So it was a fancy panel, but and one of the people on the panel was um Lynn Ahrens, who wrote co-wrote Ragtime, and she's written a lot, schoolhouse rock.

[6:16] Laura Camien: Oh, come on.

[6:17] Susan Blackwell: This is a fun I love this.

[6:19] Laura Camien: And it I gasped and I wished we could abandon the whole rest of the panel and just dig down into this thing that she mentioned so briefly, which was this is a little side-spark tangent, but she was talking about how she was working as a secretary when she got and she was had been writing songs and and and that sort of thing.

[6:43] Susan Blackwell: And she was contacted and asked if she wanted to write some songs for schoolhouse rock.

[6:50] Laura Camien: And she would take her guitar to work.

[6:54] So she'd carry her guitar to work and she'd write on her lunch breaks.

[6:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[7:02] That was my God.

[7:03] Laura Camien: That's how some of those songs got made.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: I feel effing love schoolhouse rock.

[7:08] Laura Camien: How about it?

[7:09] Susan Blackwell: And she also, she's remarkable because she's been in her writing collaboration with Stephen Flaherty for 37 years.

[7:09] Laura Camien: 37 years.

[7:20] Susan Blackwell: And that's incredible.

[7:22] It's like when you meet um people who have been married happily, happily in air quotes, because I know uh any long-term relationship of any variety has all sorts of ups and downs.

[7:35] Laura Camien: And but that they have been successfully collaborating, and they do seem to enjoy each other, but for that long, they they might be good guests for the Lay Spark file.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: I would so love to talk to them.

[7:47] Laura Camien: That would be amazing.

[7:48] I bet they would come and talk to us.

[7:50] Susan Blackwell: But but back on the path of what we were discussing, I asked as one of the questions, this whole panel was about collaboration.

[7:58] And I asked how this pandemic time has been for each of the people.

[8:04] Because you know, like have they been able to, how has virtual collaboration been for them?

[8:09] And Lynn Aaron said, I have hated this time.

[8:15] I haven't gotten anything done.

[8:17] And then she went on to say how she actually had gotten quiet and used this time to essentially write a book of essays.

[8:27] And I was like, you mean you haven't completed a Broadway show during this time, but you I was just like that's you, that's you on sort of a lazy day is Kathy's writing, a book of essays during the pandemic.

[8:42] Susan Blackwell: So all of that is to say, let us celebrate when we successfully get out of bed, shower, dress all the way to our shoes.

[8:52] Laura Camien: And I don't know, just maybe get one meaningful thing done.

[8:56] That's right.

[8:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[8:58] It's in its own time.

[8:59] Laura Camien: It's pandemic time.

[9:01] Yeah.

[9:01] It's going at its own pace.

[9:03] You know, as long as we're facing the right direction and headed towards the sun, we're, I think we're okay.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: I like it.

[9:10] Laura Camien: I like that.

[9:11] Um, anything else to say before we jump into the city?

[9:14] Susan Blackwell: No, I'm too excited.

[9:17] Laura Camien: I'm excited.

[9:17] Susan Blackwell: I think you're ups.

[9:19] Laura Camien: You're ups, Cam.

[9:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm going first.

[9:21] Laura Camien: Okay.

[9:21] Susan Blackwell: Woo!

[9:22] It's good because I don't know what I would do with all this energy if I didn't go first.

[9:26] Laura Camien: So I appreciate it.

[9:27] You've had a lot of coffee this morning.

[9:29] Susan Blackwell: I have.

[9:30] Um, so Suze, do you ever dig into a spark thinking it's going to be one thing?

[9:35] And then you like pull on the thread and like the sweater unravels and you discover the spark is something else entirely.

[9:44] Laura Camien: I feel like I have done that.

[9:46] I can't name it now, but I feel like there was a spark that I did where I was like, oh, this is the spark.

[9:50] And then two clicks down, I was like, oh no.

[9:55] The real spark is over there.

[9:57] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[9:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:58] Susan Blackwell: So this happened to me.

[10:01] I so here's what happened.

[10:03] I stumbled upon a documentary called Garnet's Gold.

[10:08] And there's going to be some spoilers in this.

[10:09] So if you plan on watching Garnet's Gold, pause as well.

[10:13] Laura Camien: F and F F.

[10:15] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I I stumbled upon it and it was, it was, you know, the trailer was talking about a guy in his like 20s or 30s who got lost in the Scottish Highlands and nearly died.

[10:27] And while he was out there alone and thinking he was done for, he found something.

[10:33] Miraculously, he was rescued and didn't die.

[10:37] And in the 20 years since this experience, he's come to believe that the thing that he found is part of Scotland's greatest long lost treasures that to this day has never been found.

[10:51] Laura Camien: And of course, smell treasures.

[10:52] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[10:53] So you smelt the treasure.

[10:55] And that alone, you know, I love a treasure hunt, a treasure story.

[10:59] So I was in, and I jumped into it thinking, I know I'm going to be sparked by this.

[11:03] And I know Suze loves a treasure story too.

[11:06] So this could be such a great companion piece to your armchair treasure hunt spark.

[11:10] Laura Camien: Yes.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: But boy, oh boy, I was not prepared for the spark that actually hit me.

[11:18] Like, you know, every every good documentary, and I know you love those too.

[11:23] Laura Camien: I do.

[11:24] Susan Blackwell: This drew me in and then flipped the script on me and left me a weepy mess contemplating my life's choices.

[11:32] Laura Camien: Oh, that's right.

[11:34] Susan Blackwell: She gasped.

[11:35] So here we go.

[11:37] First, let me tell you a little bit about Garnett Frost.

[11:40] He the he is the subject of the documentary.

[11:44] And so the filmmaker, whose name is Edward Perkins, used the word troubadour to describe him.

[11:50] Garnett is kind of a picture of like an eccentric, a mad scientist, kind of always mumbling to himself about theories and new ideas and spending hours upon hours coming up with new inventions for things.

[12:03] Some of them useful, some of them not.

[12:06] He grew up in London.

[12:08] His life was full of creative expression and appreciation for the arts and music and philosophy and poetry.

[12:15] He was definitely a creative in his own way.

[12:19] He was a dreamer, a poet, which in the end is what crushed me even more.

[12:24] But I'll circle back to that in a moment.

[12:26] A true bad.

[12:28] Perkins, the documentarian, had been looking for a subject for his first feature film.

[12:35] And a friend of his basically said, Hey, I met this guy last night at a pub.

[12:40] We were all drunk, singing old English songs.

[12:43] And this guy starts talking about lost gold up in the Scottish Highlands and how he was going to go find this gold.

[12:51] Laura Camien: And so this really piqued the filmmaker's interest.

[12:54] Susan Blackwell: And he was, of course, like, aha, that could be the perfect subject for my first film.

[12:59] Laura Camien: So then we meet Garnet and we learn about his past.

[13:04] And he tells the story of like 20, 30 years ago, he traveled to Fort William, which is in the northwest of Scotland.

[13:14] And he was on a high point where he could look down on the town and he could also like see the ocean in the distance.

[13:21] And he decides on that point that he's gonna just walk in, you know, a straight line down to the ocean on the West Coast toward the Isle of Skye, which is this gorgeous picturesque island in Scotland.

[13:39] And the only thing anyone can figure is that he must have thought that, like visually, he must have thought it was gonna be a much shorter walk, or that you know, he could just, you know, maybe take a day or two and get there.

[13:52] Susan Blackwell: But I looked it up by car, it's like 99 miles.

[13:57] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[13:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it was quite a ways in the distance.

[14:01] Laura Camien: That is a big miscalculation.

[14:03] Susan Blackwell: I mean, and listen, he didn't plan for this trip. He like had some snacks in his backpack and a pack of cigarettes. He did not have a tent or anything. He just like got inspired and headed off, which does also tell you some a little something about Garnet.

[14:22] Laura Camien: Um, so it wasn't long, of course, before he found himself alone in the very cold, vast, empty highlands. He had no idea where he was. Unbeknownst to him, he was on the edge of Loch Arcade, which is Lake Archaig for everyone else, about 20 miles from where he began. And he was alone, hungry. He hadn't seen anyone for days. And as he says, he had resigned himself to die. He really thought he was not going to make it back.

[15:00] Susan Blackwell: Jeez. So, yeah, like when you think about it, like there's no denying that the highlands are stunningly beautiful, but it's really very sparse. And the weather is brutal. And if you're not equipped, you're not, you're not gonna survive. So somehow, miraculously and completely out of chance, a small fisherman's boat appeared on the water, and Garnet had found this wooden staff at the water's edge, and he tied his shirt around it and he waved down the boat, and that person picked him up and brought him back to safety.

[15:37] Laura Camien: So he survived that adventure and he goes about living his life. But the whole time he's kept this wooden staff, kind of a like a walking stick, I suppose, um, which he found in the highlands. And over the years, the intrigue with this just grew and grew. I mean, he starts, he starts talking about where he found this carved walking stick. It was lodged between two rocks on the water's edge on Loch Arcade, uh, Loch Arcade, where Scottish legend talks about a buried chest of gold that the French had planned to send Prince Charles Edward Stuart, aka Bonnie Prince Charlie, in 1746.

[16:32] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So then they mention the Battle of Culloden, the fact that the gold didn't get there in time to help Bonnie Prince Charlie. And I was like, wait, I know this story.

[16:45] Laura Camien: You probably know this story too, because I know, of course, I've heard about it in the show Outlander.

[16:52] Susan Blackwell: Aha.

[16:53] Laura Camien: Where I must pause here to shout out to our friend Laura Young, who is a big fan.

[16:57] Susan Blackwell: Laura.

[16:58] Laura Camien: Um I know. I can't think about Outlander without thinking about Laura Young.

[17:03] Susan Blackwell: I know. They're they're inextricably tied together now.

[17:06] Laura Camien: Absolutely. But so this is truly legend in Scottish history, and many, many people have gone in search of this buried treasure over the hundreds of years since then. So let me give you just a quick little overview of this true story. Prince Charles Edward Stuart was the grandson of the Catholic king, King James, which was King James the Seventh of Scotland and the Second of England. The Prince believed, as did his many followers, that the throne of Great Britain rightfully belonged to the House of Stuart, and that he was the rightful heir.

[17:45] Susan Blackwell: He led a campaign to overthrow King George, which was called the Jacobite Risings of 1745. That is super complicated. So I'm not gonna go too far into that. But suffice to say, this I knew you'd be relieved. He essentially started a civil war.

[18:04] Laura Camien: That's the better way to see it. He started a civil war.

[18:06] Susan Blackwell: So you have the people who followed the current king, King George, who was, by the way, grandfather to the King George that Americans abandoned to create a new country.

[18:18] Laura Camien: Wow.

[18:19] Susan Blackwell: Um I'm just gonna picture Jonathan Groff.

[18:22] Laura Camien: Jonathan Groff's grandpa, essentially.

[18:25] Susan Blackwell: Jonathan Groff's grandpa was reigning Scotland at the time. And there were a group of people and many like the Scottish clans who believed that another family should have been the rightful ruler, and they fought to reinstate that family to the throne.

[18:45] Laura Camien: So it's a civil war between this basically an army of civilians against a government army.

[18:52] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Right. So someone's currently in power.

[18:55] Laura Camien: Yep.

[18:56] Susan Blackwell: People who are not in power.

[18:57] Laura Camien: Yep.

[18:58] Susan Blackwell: So Bonnie Prince Charlie did all of this fighting with a lot of the clansmen. And they were making progress, but it led to this infamous battle, the Battle of Culloden in 1746. And this was essentially like they were completely annihilated. There was no, it was, like I said, an army of civilians against a government army that like really brought all of its power.

[19:28] Laura Camien: So this there was no match.

[19:31] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. It was bad.

[19:33] Laura Camien: It was bad.

[19:36] Susan Blackwell: But somehow, Bonnie Prince Charlie, although he lost the battle, he miraculously survived the battle, which was shocking. And he escaped into the Highlands, which is a legend in and of itself. So the loss of this battle was the end of the uprising. King George won, and he essentially then dismantled the Highlanders' way of life. So everything that we think about Scotland in terms of clans and the clan system, he dismantled it because they were a threat.

[20:08] Laura Camien: So there was a series of laws passed. Like they couldn't, they weren't allowed to even wear their tartans. You know, they couldn't signify what clan they were part of. So it changed the history of Scotland completely.

[20:21] Susan Blackwell: Wow. So follow me here.

[20:24] Laura Camien: I'm gonna follow you.

[20:25] Susan Blackwell: Just an interesting thing to know. Anytime a country has a civil war, meaning its people are fighting themselves. This is a great opportunity for adversaries and enemies of this country. So, you know, you're trying to run your country, your people are fighting among themselves. So you kind of got your hands full with your own stuff.

[20:47] Laura Camien: Right.

[20:47] Susan Blackwell: Sort of like what's happening to war yet, but sort of like the division that's happening in the United States, which weakens us as a country.

[20:57] Laura Camien: That's exactly right.

[20:58] Susan Blackwell: So when people say other countries are watching and thinking, hmm, here's an opportunity, that's right. This is an example of that.

[21:07] Laura Camien: Or maybe even architecting the opportunity that they're architecting it.

[21:11] Susan Blackwell: That is correct. That's correct. And this moment in Scotland's history was no different. Other enemies decided to get in the game and throw some support to the groups that were infighting, right? So in this case, France, France did not like King George, who was in power. So they threw some money to Bonnie Prince Charlie, some ships, some money, some um people to fight for him.

[21:39] Laura Camien: So they backed his effort because they preferred to have him in charge.

[21:44] Susan Blackwell: So in 1746, as the Jacobites were winning these battles, they were also running out of money. And the French promised to send more funds. And they did send more funds. But those funds in the form of a chest of gold, they did not arrive in time to help him, but they did arrive. They just arrived about two weeks after the Battle of Culloden.

[22:10] Laura Camien: Oh.

[22:11] Susan Blackwell: So they did not arrive in time to help Bonnie Prince Charlie. So, first of all, if you live in Scotland, please forgive me for how I'm capturing your country's history. I apologize for that. I'm really watering it down here. But I'm certain that every Scott knows the history of Bonnie Prince Charlie. Many legends exist. Songs and works of art have been inspired by his uprising. In fact, Suze, if you watch Outlander, you might recognize the theme song as a variation on one of the songs that was written for Bonnie Prince Charlie.

[22:43] Laura Camien: And you have to think, these are songs written nearly 300 years ago.

[22:46] Susan Blackwell: Wow. And here we are today. And there's they still exist, which is, I think, incredible in and of its own right. But that is a the song Um Speed Bonnie Boat, like a bird on the wing, onward the sailors cry. Carry the lad that's born to be king over the sea to sky.

[23:06] Laura Camien: And they mean sky, S-K-Y-E, of course, where Garnet was headed.

[23:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. As I mentioned earlier. The Isle of Sky.

[23:14] Laura Camien: The Isle of Sky.

[23:16] Susan Blackwell: And this is where Bonnie Prince uh Charlie escaped after the battle. So this is where we get back to Garnett and his treasure hunt. Okay. So all of that is true. There is a chest of gold that people have been hunting for. And so you're sort of like, well, I mean, it could happen. It could be true, right? So this area where Garnett traversed 20, 30 years ago on foot, and where he found this wooden staff. It is the very area that reports have it. The French delivered a chest of gold. The treasure has never or had never been found. And over the years, you know, the mystery around it has only grown.

[24:00] Laura Camien: And Garnett, who did a bunch of research, began to wonder was this possibly a marker for where the gold had been buried? You know, he kept mulling this over for 20 some years since that. He molded it over in his mind like what the staff might be, why it was there. I mean, it's again, we're talking about a barren area where no one would be out and about, like with a walking stick. It was come you know what I mean? It was a completely empty area.

[24:30] Susan Blackwell: So um he started to dig into the research. Many books have been written and maps created. There's talk in all of these books of like stones and rocks and rivulets, um, like describing the place where this chest was buried. And all of that just reinforces in Garnett's mind that this staff may be or must be significant in some way. He really builds up in his mind. So as the movie progresses, you can see how swept up he's become in the idea of a quest, this quest to find this buried treasure.

[25:11] Laura Camien: But our filmmaker begins to show us a bigger picture. One after the next, Garnet's friends are interviewed, his mother's interviewed, and they describe him as imaginative and creative, but that he's lost a little in his own world where nothing ever comes to a satisfying end for him. He has big dreams, but he doesn't ever complete his projects. You know what we would say about that, Camps?

[25:42] Susan Blackwell: He can generate some sparks. He can maybe even fan them a little bit into a flame, but he doesn't ever get to full completion or sharing the universe.

[25:52] Laura Camien: That's right. And it's actually causing him a great deal of pain. It at this end, I feel like it's causes such great anguish when you're out of balance.

[26:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[26:03] Laura Camien: So this is where we take a turn, and my heart just begins to ache. I'm like, oh, this is not a story about buried treasure at all. This is a story about follow through, about fanning the flames. It is a story about doing and a story about living. And oh, it got me, Suze.

[26:28] Susan Blackwell: So our our main character here, Garnett is 58 years old. And he takes care of his mom. She must be, you know, 80 at least. She's bedridden. And she talks about what she did in her life. And oh, this was fascinating. She's asked the question of like essentially 80 years. Give us the highlights. She recalls two things. One is that there was a boy who courted her when she was 19 years old, but she never succumbed. And she still thinks about him.

[27:09] Laura Camien: Oh God.

[27:10] Susan Blackwell: And the other thing she said she did in her life is that in the 1970s, she wrote children's songs, and she's very proud that one of them is sung the world over by children. Those were the two things that she mentioned, having done in her 80 years.

[27:28] Laura Camien: She also talks about how in her mind she's about 40 years old. She says, I look down at my hands, and I think, oh, that's an old person's hand.

[27:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[27:42] Laura Camien: Whose hand is that?

[27:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[27:44] Laura Camien: She says she's been dreaming a lot, and she dreams about running and dancing. Ugh, this movie was so not about what I thought it was about. So now we have Garnett.

[27:58] Laura Camien: He's contemplating going on this quest to find his treasure. And you can see him coming up with excuse after excuse after excuse of why he can't do it, why he shouldn't do it.

[28:11] Susan Blackwell: And you see, like, ugh, you see the worry on his friends' faces too, that are like, oh gosh, is this another thing that he's not going to follow through on?

[28:24] Laura Camien: Yeah. The whole time his mother is completely supportive. She loans him money that he needs to make it happen. And you come to realize like she just wants to see him do something.

[28:38] Laura Camien: Just do something and not be tormented by the projects that he hasn't done. In one particularly moving interview, Garnett talks about life going by so fast. He says, one minute you're tiny, you turn around and it's over. If I don't get started on something, it's gonna pass me by completely.

[29:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[29:02] Laura Camien: Suze, I was a wreck because it was such a private moment. It was really innocent and childlike the way you said it.

[29:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[29:12] Laura Camien: And it was beautiful. And you get the sense that it might be exasperating if you were someone who loved this man, if you were close to him or wanted something for him.

[29:26] Susan Blackwell: Because he just couldn't get himself past the dreaming of something into the doing of something.

[29:35] Laura Camien: Yeah. Sidebar, I this also reminded me of a woman that I knew when I first moved to New York years ago. She was our landlord in Astoria, Queens, Mrs. Salome.

[29:45] Laura Camien: When I lived there, I was like 25, 26 years old. And she must have been in her 60s. But she took care of her brother who had some developmental and learning challenges, and he was an adult brother. And she took care of her mother her entire life, who was still alive.

[30:05] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[30:06] Laura Camien: And she would always, whenever she got a chance, she would, you know, invite us in for a piece of pie or some um pasta and gravy, whatever she had made. Um, she was very, very much longing to tell her stories.

[30:23] Laura Camien: And one story she told over and over again was a story about being asked on a date once when she was younger. And she talks about having gotten all ready to go. She remembers the dress she wore, she remembers how she did her hair.

[30:41] Laura Camien: She remembers the jewelry she wore. And then her mother fell sick that day, and she had to stay home. And that was it. That was her entire life. There were no other activities. There were no other dates, nothing.

[31:00] Laura Camien: And God, it makes me feel like the things I've taken for granted.

[31:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[31:06] Laura Camien: Suze, somehow, somehow I don't know. This is now in relation to like creativity and not Mrs. Salome, who like, ooh, I just feel like God I've been so lucky and have had so many privileges.

[31:27] Laura Camien: Like the idea, you know what I mean? Like it's not not to be taken for granted. And it makes me feel like, am I using them? You know, am I doing everything I can with them?

[31:37] Laura Camien: But somehow, somewhere I was taught in terms of creativity, like if you want something to happen, you have to make it happen. And I can't really pinpoint where I learned that.

[31:51] Laura Camien: Like my parents or my college professors, maybe the maybe the guys who founded Blue Man Group who were my mentors for many years. I don't know. But I definitely learned like if you want to get something done, you have to shift the energy.

[32:07] Laura Camien: And I was thinking about this as I was watching Garnett be stuck. You know what I mean?

[32:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[32:12] Laura Camien: Which is not to say that I haven't been stuck. I've been stuck many, many times. But somewhere along the way, I learned like only I can change the energy.

[32:22] Laura Camien: For me, that might be like take a class or make a new friend or let a friend go. Um, a therapist once told me when I was in a really dark place, like dark, dark place.

[32:36] Laura Camien: This therapist said, literally, you have to try to do one new thing each day to change the energy and see things from a new perspective. She was like, she was like, Laura, it can literally be as small as put your pants on left leg first instead of right leg first.

[32:58] Susan Blackwell: She was trying to disrupt your habitual.

[33:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, that was like the most extreme time of darkness for me. But and I've had, but I've had many other like less extreme times, just feeling creatively unfulfilled or overwhelmed.

[33:15] Laura Camien: Um yeah, and I just I I think that I've I've learned two things. One, it's up to me to change the trajectory of my life or the trajectory of a project by changing the energy.

[33:30] Laura Camien: And two, no one does it alone, which we talk about all the time. It really takes a support system.

[33:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[33:38] Laura Camien: Not to get too emotional here, Suze, but you've always been one of those people for me. Like we have a longstanding agreement to pull each other up by our bootstraps when we need it, if we need it.

[33:51] Laura Camien: And I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful for that. Um but I think you also learned early on that you had to create your own opportunities in life.

[34:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[34:00] Laura Camien: Yeah, but it was a real, well, not early, but like I feel like I was deep into my 20s. And it was a it was a revelation.

[34:09] Laura Camien: And I feel like we've taught. So I know we've talked about it a lot in life and talked about it a little bit on this podcast, but it was people that I saw.

[34:18] Laura Camien: I had been around people who had created their own opportunities in my hometown. There were people that had created the uh city's theater company. Do you know what I mean?

[34:32] Laura Camien: Like the most significant theater.

[34:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[34:35] Laura Camien: And I knew those people, but I just I didn't put it together like that they were undertaking sort of an entrepreneurial endeavor/slash creative endeavor.

[34:47] Laura Camien: Yeah. And that they were like probably not getting paid very much, working seven days a week, like showing up, doing like wearing all the hats.

[34:58] Laura Camien: Like I just didn't get it until I don't know. It was like in my mid 20s. And I saw, you know, who I feel like turned the key for me is a um Broadway performer and creator, Jason Kravitz, who with his friends, and I've I think I've referenced them on this podcast before, were doing this.

[35:20] Laura Camien: I don't know, or I know I talk about them in interviews, but they were doing this uh rumble in the red room. And every Monday night, this group of actors, some of whom who have gone on to become very recognizable, especially with Broadway people, things like that.

[35:34] Laura Camien: They would come together every Monday night, and you could, if they sort of gave you the thumbs up, you could get up and do like five minutes or seven minutes of something new that you had worked up that week.

[35:49] Laura Camien: And so it would be new songs, sketches, um, monologues. And so I did a show with Jason, an off-Broadway show, and he told me about this, and I was like, huh.

[36:02] Laura Camien: And then I like wangled my way in there and started getting up and doing stuff, and then started bringing other people, like you know, Rebecca Finnegan and eventually you and Jeff Bohan and Hunter Bell along for the ride.

[36:14] Laura Camien: But it was like having a new toy to play with when I was like, oh, we don't have to wait for external opportunities. We can create our own opportunities and um among all the other benefits, their couture.

[36:28] Susan Blackwell: That's this is like bespoke to decide what it is.

[36:32] Laura Camien: That's right. It's not us being shoved into somebody else's, you know, yeah round hole.

[36:38] Susan Blackwell: There's a moment there that I find interesting because I also feel like I didn't grasp it until my 20s either, although I'm now recollecting like plenty of college professors told me that may be the reality.

[36:51] Laura Camien: Um, but then it became more real once in New York and seeing other people do it. But the difference, when I think of Garnett, I think of like so many, just what is that moment that takes you from um, I've been dreaming about this thing, I've been wanting this thing, and now I'm actually going to take one step forward to doing it, and then another step and another step into making it a reality.

[37:20] Laura Camien: And for Garnett, he had spent a year never finding that impetus, like never finding that one thing that would then launch him into the next phase of doing and making it happen.

[37:38] Susan Blackwell: Luckily, he had a support system that was frankly in this moment so ready for him to do something. His mom and his friends, and then he had this new opportunity with this filmmaker who wanted to film his quest.

[37:52] Laura Camien: I actually think the filmmaker compelled this next step.

[37:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you know.

[37:57] Laura Camien: Yeah. And so the good news is Garnett did it. He really did it. He made his way back to the place where he had found the wooden staff, the place where he was lost and almost died.

[38:11] Susan Blackwell: Of course, going back there, he's confronted with the memories of how he had laid himself down, resigned to die, and now here he is with a new sense of life and a new sense of pride that he followed through with his intent.

[38:28] Laura Camien: Of course, the gold wasn't there.

[38:30] Susan Blackwell: Um that would have been amazing.

[38:32] Laura Camien: If it was.

[38:33] Susan Blackwell: It would have been so amazing.

[38:35] Laura Camien: Um, but his mom sums it up. Gold isn't just a treasure box with an X on it, it. It's the experiences you had. Your friendships, your relationships, right? Your relationship to the past, understanding your relationship to the universe, the cosmos, really.

[38:57] Susan Blackwell: She says that is the gold dust.

[39:00] Laura Camien: And ultimately, Garnett contemplated the way he had lived his life. And he even poked a bit of fun at himself by writing a poem about it.

[39:12] Laura Camien: The poem is called Nearly, and I'd like to read it for you now. Nearly by Garnett Frost. Of all the things I've nearly done, I nearly met the Aga Khan. I nearly buzzed the Southern Piers with Avis in his death machine.

[39:30] Laura Camien: I nearly traversed across the desert on a camel with the Bedouin. I nearly painted golden towers. I nearly practiced the guitar for hours. I nearly saw the purpose of a suffering soul.

[39:46] Laura Camien: I nearly stormed the pitch and scored a goal. I nearly was an honest man. But all the things I've nearly done when all that's nearly done is through.

[40:01] Laura Camien: What's done, what isn't, when the bell has rung, and there's nothing left to nearly do. If I can't grasp a late degree, I'll ever say it was for lack of loving thee.

[40:14] Laura Camien: So let my heart be open and my way be true. And let me put aside the things I've nearly done and bring me daily closer to the things that I do.

[40:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[40:29] Laura Camien: Yes, Darnett's goals. I cried when I when I heard that. And I was like, oh God, I want to just to get it out of me, I want to like write a list of things that I nearly have done, you know, uh, just to get it up and out.

[40:47] Laura Camien: But I I was thinking about how in many of our workshops, the topic of worry, like what if I do this thing? Like, what are the consequences of me creating the thing that I want to create that comes up for a lot of people, like what others might think, what if it hurts someone, it feels scary.

[41:10] Susan Blackwell: It's painful. And sometimes that pain can keep us from moving forward with a creative project. But we often talk about this when the pain of not doing it, or the pain of potentially looking back and saying, I nearly did that, becomes so great that it's too uncomfortable to carry any longer. That is the time when it's time to let it go. The realities of making the thing, doing the thing are not going to be as painful as the thought of not having done it at all.

[41:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:52] Susan Blackwell: And when I think about the creative projects I've been so excited about that for one reason or another, I got distracted from or moved away from. Like we talk about the graveyard of abandoned projects or the island of forgotten creative dreams. This documentary and the words of Garnett, really, oof, I felt the pain coming to the end of his life and feeling as though he hadn't done any of them, except this last one. He may not have found the treasure chest of gold, but he found treasure all right. That feeling of completion, of follow-through, of doing the project, making the thing, that inner satisfaction. Like there's really nothing else quite like it. So what do we make of it?

[42:36] Laura Camien: I think as soon as COVID's over, we make a trip to Scotland. A there's so much. I mean, there's so much about Bonnie Prince Charlie and a woman named Flora McDonald, who is like a hero in and of herself, who disguised herself as a maid and smuggled him to the Isle of Skye. There's so much more to know about King George, Jonathan Groff and his grandpa. Think of it. His grandpa almost lost Scotland, and then King George lost the American colonies. Like I just think there's something really interesting about that moment in the British monarchy.

[43:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And then I think really most of all, we what we make of it is we just make things. We continue to make things, the things tucked in the drawers, the ideas in our spark file. Like, let's do the things. We have to remember that we have a finite amount of time. And if it matters to us, let's get started.

[43:43] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh. It's so funny. As you're talking, I realized that largely throughout your spark, I was just sitting here and taking it in and listening. And there's so many, in addition to what you just said, I feel like there's so many twinkly sparks in there. So many. Your story about your neighbor.

[44:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Mrs. Salome.

[44:05] Laura Camien: Miss So was she married? Did she end up getting no, not everybody?

[44:11] Susan Blackwell: So she was Ms. or Miss.

[44:12] Laura Camien: She literally nearly went on one date.

[44:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[44:16] Laura Camien: Okay. And it's the extent of her romantic life. God, it sounds like a Kurt Vonnegut story or a Laura Camien story or a Tennessee Williams story.

[44:29] Susan Blackwell: It's sort of that, it is it does have a little Tennessee Williams flavor to it.

[44:32] Laura Camien: Yes, doesn't it? Sort of like, I had a pretty dress once kind of thing.

[44:37] Susan Blackwell: That's exactly right. I have said, I've said recently, I've not been driven by an ambition for sort of professional success, maybe to my own detriment, but I have been driven by an ambition for adventure. And when I say adventure, I don't mean like jumping out of airplanes. What I mean is the gold dust that Garnett Frost's mother is talking about, the life experiences and that, you know, and creative experiences and that sort of adventure.

[45:15] Laura Camien: Yep. So that can take many forms. It can be this podcast, it can be, it can it can I could the list goes on and on, but but it's um to your earlier point, it really is when one is out of balance with, you know, you might be a person who can generate sparks. You might be a person who can fan them into flames and make them. You might be a person who's really good about sharing the light about those things, even before the thing gets made. But when you're out of balance with that spark cycle of creativity, it can, I mean, it can be anguishing in a life. And I think you're right. The antidote maybe starts as simply as your therapist said it did, which is like finding out a way, just finding small ways to take a different walk on your path to and from work.

[46:19] Susan Blackwell: And just like disrupt yourself.

[46:23] Laura Camien: Disrupting, disrupting and the new. And yeah. And if you're attached to a story about why you're not doing something.

[46:34] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[46:34] Laura Camien: And maybe take a closer look at that story and say, am I more attached to this story than I am to the idea of getting this thing done? You know? And for me, I think about like there's a couple projects. There's a few things that I've, you know, fleetingly been like, oh, that would be fun. And because we have to make choices. But I have to ask myself, like, at the end of the day, will I be okay if this thing is on the list of things I nearly did? Or do I want it and need it to be on the list of things I actually did? And there'll be things on both lists. You know what I mean? Like there's not, there's not like there isn't going to be a full list of things you nearly did. But are you okay with those being the things that didn't get done?

[47:21] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh. I have so many sparks pinging around my brain right now. And some of them I cannot tell you because they're future sparks. But um it's yeah, yeah. I think about um coaching clients that we have worked with or passed on working with because they are really, really deeply connected to this sort of story that keeps them safe about not crossing the finish line and about not yeah. And it's it's um, I don't know. I guess at the end of the day, we only can be responsible for our own lives. And I know that I am a person who wants to rock the whole spark cycle. Like I want to and also I think, you know, I'm just thinking about Mrs. Salome also, and thinking about being someone who has at my disposal the ability to get a number of things done. Not everyone has that.

[48:30] Laura Camien: That's right.

[48:32] Susan Blackwell: People have different challenges in front of them.

[48:34] Laura Camien: That's right. You know what I mean? So they might be like, well, easy for you to say, Laura.

[48:38] Susan Blackwell: Yep. Um, but we have just different challenges between ourselves and the finish line. And I recognize that. And I think sometimes that makes me feel even more guilty on bad days, but motivated on good days to be like, you got no excuses, kid. Get up, get going, get doing it. Um I try to like remain thankful in those moments that I have those opportunities, but I think it is about seeing the opportunities you do have in front of you and figuring out how to tackle the challenges that are unique to your situation. And always a good reminder to be kind to the Ms. Salome's of the world.

[49:21] Laura Camien: Oh my God. She's not Mrs. Sorry, Ms. Salome's of the World.

[49:24] Susan Blackwell: I know. Why did I always call her Mrs. Salome?

[49:27] Laura Camien: I don't know, but there may be chapters in this salamand. Can I just tell you one more thing? She was amazing. I'll never forget this moment. But she would always come whenever we came in the front door. She would swing her, she lived on the bottom floor, and we lived on the top floor. So she would like swing her door open. She'd be like, Laura, Laura.

[49:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm sorry.

[49:42] Laura Camien: And I would be like, she would be like, Laura, I made a pie. And I would stop and be like, that's amazing. Thank you. You know, that's great. And one day, this is so crazy. Well, one sometimes I would go in and talk with, you know, put my bag down and talk with her and have a slice of pie and listen. But this on this particular occasion, I was like, I I can't. I've got it, I've, you know, I've got to get upstairs and I have I'm late for something. And she was like, but you have to have a slice of pie, essentially. She runs back, gets the pie, cuts a slice of it, and there's nowhere to put it. I literally have bags in my hands, and she's like, put out your hand, put out your hand. And I like just literally imagine a flat palm.

She takes the slice of pie and places it directly on my flat palm. And I now have just a piece of pie to carry upstairs with my bag and my keys and like unlock my door and whatnot. And I was just like, I don't think I'll ever forget this moment. It was such an act of generosity and kindness. And like it was it was absolutely ridiculous. And I enjoyed that piece of pie right off my hand.

[51:04] Susan Blackwell: That is a spark for your spark file. That is something like you would not believe it if you saw it. You wouldn't finish the story.

[51:14] Laura Camien: Uh that is beautiful. It'd be a beautiful painting, too. Just a portrait of your hand holding a piece of pie.

[51:17] Susan Blackwell: A piece of pie. Sparks in there. Um beautiful spark. Shall we adjourn?

[51:26] Laura Camien: Let's adjourn and return.

[51:30] Susan Blackwell: Spark. Shall we dive in?

[51:33] Laura Camien: Yes. Let's do it. I can't wait to hear your spark.

[51:35] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So as I was saying earlier, I just want to start this spark by saying that this is a spark in progress. And it feels a bit vulnerable to record it and put it out there because it pins it in time. And I know that as I continue to work on it, it will continue to evolve and grow and change as I learn more and I understand more. So the stakes feel high because it feels important, but I'm gonna do my best, and I'm going to grant myself grace to learn more and evolve as time passes. And I invite all of you people to do the same.

[52:11] Laura Camien: Yeah. I think that's all we can do, Suze.

[52:14] Susan Blackwell: It really is in this moment.

[52:15] Laura Camien: Yeah. It's uh it but it is. It feels I was talking with somebody who I'll refer to it later in my Sparks, and we were talking about this very thing, how it is vulnerable because this captures a moment in time on this day in November 2020. A very particular moment.

[52:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, very particular moment in time. And it's going to evolve, like starting immediately after I record this. So interesting. Anyway, yeah. Um, let me back up. A few years ago, we bought this house in upstate New York. When I say we, I mean my husband, Nathan and I, not Laura and I. So Nathan and I bought this house in upstate New York. And we, after decades of living in the city, we moved out, moved out of the city because I figured as long as I get to where I needed to be for work, or better still, if I could work virtually, I could live wherever I wanted. So we bought this house from the family that built the house. And it was really cool to learn about them, especially their father, the builder of our house.

[53:14] Laura Camien: So you know this, Camien, but for people who don't, I don't know that I've ever talked about this on the podcast. But for the framework of the house, the builder used beams from one of the pavilions at the 64-65 World's Fair that was held in New York City.

[53:30] Susan Blackwell: I love this story so much.

[53:32] Laura Camien: I love it.

[53:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So if you've ever driven through Queens and you've seen the Unisphere, which is like a big silver sculpture of a globe of the earth, that is one of the vestiges from the 64-65 World's Fair that was in New York City. And I really love knowing that sort of history. I love looking at photos of that pavilion from that World's Fair and then looking up at the exposed beams. And I'm looking at one now, looking at those beams and putting together that the infrastructure of that pavilion was transformed into the infrastructure of this building that I'm in. It's so crazy to think about it. It's the same material.

[54:15] Laura Camien: It's so crazy.

[54:17] Susan Blackwell: So I feel like this house was a spark, and the vision that the builder had was a spark that they brought to life. It's not cookie cutter, it's really unique. And I just love how that past it lives in the beams on this house.

[54:32] Laura Camien: Suze, can I just just try just really quickly? I want to make sure I understand. So he worked at the World's Fair and he was part of a team that disassembled it. Or how did he get those beams?

[54:49] Susan Blackwell: When they were taking apart and dismantling the World's Fair after its completion, I'm guessing that somebody, this is this is editorializing, but just based on what we know of him. I'm guessing that somebody said, Hey, if you can come and get and these beams are huge. If you can come and take them away, you can have them. And he retrieved them and they were stored for a couple decades in the barn that is at the base of the hill that we live on. We do know that the beams were there for about 20 years while he was like, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. Plotting, scheming, and he ended up building this his house, you know.

[55:39] Susan Blackwell: So yeah. So about I'm guessing that it was, I'm trying to remember if you were with me, CamS. It was probably about a year and a half ago. I visited a farm down the road from our house to buy some food. And I introduced myself to the farmer who lived there. And they the farmer and his wife were asking about where I lived. And then they were telling me about the land that we currently live on and how it had once been a dairy farm. And he told us the name of the farmer who had worked the land, and they described how the cows would graze on the hill that we lived on, and it all made sense because CamS, you know, because you've been here, you can see the relics of the farm. You can see the sort of crumbling stone walls that framed the boundaries of the land.

You can see a metal fence gate like you'd see on a farm. And there's no longer a fence attached to it. The fence has fallen away, but the metal gate still remains. And there's even a little old cow shed that's still standing down in the field, if you recall. And again, I just like I like looking around and thinking about the farmer or even the cow who might have stood where I'm currently standing and what they saw and what has changed and what has remained the same over time, more or less.

[55:40] Laura Camien: Yes.

[56:58] So cut to me listening to a podcast that I like very much called On Being, which is a podcast that's out of the St. Paul Minneapolis area, hosted by a woman named Krista Tippett. On Being is a spark that Celia Keenan-Bolger shared with me. Thank you, Celia Keenan-Bolger. Great spark. Great podcast. In fact, this podcast is so great that in 2014, Barack Obama awarded the National Humanities Medal to its host, Krista Tippett, for, and I quote, thoughtfully delving into the mysteries of human existence. Barack Obama went on to say, Ms. Tippett avoids easy answers, embracing complexity and inviting people of every background to join her conversation about faith, ethics, and moral wisdom. And all of that is to say On Being is a hella good podcast. When you're when you're receiving the National Humanities Medal for your work, including a podcast that's some good podcasting.

[57:55] So yeah. I'm listening to On Being. And at the end of each episode, Krista Tippett says something that caught catches my ear. And that is the following sentence. The On Being Project is located on Dakota land. And I was like, Yes. What's that? What is that? What is that sentence? What is the story behind that sentence? So I go onto their website. I feel like you're way ahead of me, Cam.

[58:22] Laura Camien: No, I'm just so excited. I'm excited to be talking about this.

[58:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I went onto their website and they had what is called a land acknowledgement. The On Being website talks about the complicated and layered history of the land in Minneapolis that currently that they currently work on. That talks about the Dakota people who have lived there for thousands of years and the European settlers who colonized the land that the state of Minnesota now occupies. It talks about the United States land seizures that denied the Dakota free and unhindered access to the land that fundamentally shapes their identity and spirituality. The website goes on to say we invite you to consider the land on which you live and the confluence of legacies that bring you to stand where you are, particularly through critical reflection and conversation with your own community. We encourage you to use the resources below to assist in your exploration. And then they provide all of these resources.

[59:30] I was very sparked by all of this. Yeah. Because I it's true. Everywhere we live, everywhere we work and visit in this country, we are walking on land that is the land of indigenous people who were here long before us, long before the dairy farmers, long before the builders of our houses and our apartments. So I think this is interesting. And I want to back up a little bit and explore more. What is a land acknowledgement? So this is from the website of Northwestern University, Northwestern.edu. And it reads A land acknowledgement is a formal statement that recognizes and respects indigenous peoples as traditional stewards of this land and the enduring relationship that exists between indigenous people and their traditional territories.

They go on to say to recognize the land is an expression of gratitude and appreciation to those whose territory you reside on, and a way of honoring the indigenous people who have been living and working on the land from time immemorial. It is important to understand the long-standing history that has brought you to reside on the land and to seek to understand your place within that history. Land acknowledgments do not exist in the past tense or a historical context. Colonialism is a current ongoing process, and we need to build our mindfulness of our present participation. It is also worth noting that acknowledging the land is indigenous protocol.

[1:01:00] Laura Camien: So that made me even more curious.

[1:01:04] Susan Blackwell: And in my exploring, I found the website of the Native Governance Center. And this is a bit about the Native Governance Center from their own site. Native Governance Center is a Native American-led nonprofit organization located in St. Paul, Minnesota. Our mission is to assist tribal nations in strengthening their governance systems and capacity to exercise sovereignty through leadership development and tribal governance support. And I I will be honest with you, CamS, because sometimes history, not my strongest suit. But according to Wikipedia, sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. So again, I'm gonna read that sentence from their website.

Our mission is to assist tribal nations in strengthening their governance systems and capacity to exercise sovereignty through leadership development and tribal governance support. Now that is something a sentence that you might be like, yeah, yeah, I get it. But I was like, some of those words, I was like, I need to know more about what that means.

[1:02:09] Laura Camien: On the website for the Native Governance Center, there's a big letters, it says sovereignty matters.

[1:02:15] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, then I need to know what that word means. You were about to say something.

[1:02:19] Laura Camien: Well, I'm just saying, I want to make sure that I understand because the way I understand it, it means the ability to govern oneself or um a group of uh people, a country. Um, but you can have personal sovereignty, meaning I'm got I I have the ability to govern, you know, I have the control of governing myself. Um but also in this case, a group that is not to be governed by an outside force, but to govern themselves, correct?

[1:02:51] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:02:51] Laura Camien: So if you're an indigenous nation that you have sovereignty.

[1:02:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:58] Laura Camien: That's yeah, exactly.

[1:02:59] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So if you're interested in this, their website has so many resources, including a page on creating an indigenous land acknowledgement statement. So I just want to like share this with you, Cammy. And again, all of this is straight from their website. And they are not the only resource on this. There are some others that I'll share before we um end today that I feel like it's important to really dig if you're interested in this, like really dig in and hear from a lot of different voices. Because this is not uh cookie cutter work. This is not sort of like, let me find a good template for a land acknowledgement statement, and I'll just sort of like, you know what I mean? Like this requires some real um thought and some real work and some real reflection.

[1:03:48] Laura Camien: So when you say that, can I ask?

[1:03:51] Susan Blackwell: Do you mean in terms of like people are still right now on the front edge of sorting out all of the appropriateness or or the way in which we should go about it? Is that what you mean when you say that?

[1:04:05] Laura Camien: Because colonization is happening currently.

[1:04:10] Susan Blackwell: This is not, and we'll get into this. This is not past tense.

[1:04:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, this is not historical, this is not something that happened 500 years ago or 300 years ago.

[1:04:21] Susan Blackwell: This is right now. And uh in doing in be just beginning to scratch the surface of this work, some of the things that have that I was previously unaware of have been revealed to me. And it's um it's it's present tense.

[1:04:43] Laura Camien: Okay, it's present tense.

[1:04:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:04:46] Laura Camien: So they recommend starting with self-reflection before you start working on your land acknowledgement statement, reflecting on the process and asking yourself, why am I doing this land acknowledgement? And they say if you're hoping to inspire others to take action to support indigenous communities, you're on the right track. If you're delivering a land acknowledgement out of guilt or because everyone else is doing it, more self-reflection is in order. And I thought that was awesome.

[1:05:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that is awesome.

[1:05:16] Laura Camien: I recommend asking yourself, what is my end goal?

[1:05:20] Susan Blackwell: And so I thought, what am I hoping doing this, like bringing this onto the podcast? What am I hoping that listeners will do after hearing this acknowledgement? And this is not fully formed, but where I am as of the recording of this podcast is that my hope is that this will spark continued awareness and curiosity in myself and others so that we can learn and understand how past and present actions impact the indigenous people in our areas and in our country.

[1:05:54] Laura Camien: So that's m I have other hopes that I'll get to, but that's a place to start and why I'm talking.

[1:06:04] Susan Blackwell: And then the ask yourself, when will I have the largest impact? And they say, think about your timing and your audience specifically. So I'm just starting here and now. It seems like a good use of our platform and a good use of our little megaphone.

[1:06:17] Laura Camien: So it may not be the only one, but it's a place to start.

[1:06:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:06:21] Laura Camien: And and yeah, it is something you're genuinely sparked by.

[1:06:24] Susan Blackwell: I can now say both of us are sparked by.

[1:06:27] Laura Camien: Um, so it's a perfect place for it.

[1:06:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[1:06:30] Laura Camien: So uh the next step is do your homework.

[1:06:33] Susan Blackwell: Put in the time necessary to research the following topics. The indigenous people to whom the land belongs. That is present tense to whom the land belongs. So I did some research and I started with a website called native-land.ca. This is a bomb.com website. It's really good. This website maps indigenous lands in a way that, according to their site, and I'm gonna read here, changes, challenges, and improves the way people see the history of their countries and peoples. We strive to map indigenous territories, treaties, and languages across the world in a way that goes beyond colonial ways of thinking in order to better represent how indigenous people want to see themselves. They also provide educational resources to correct the way people speak about colonialism and indigeneity and to encourage territory awareness in everyday speech and action. And I also want to add, it's beautiful. The people behind this website have done it, it's it's educational, it's informative, and it's also so artful.

[1:07:46] Laura Camien: Pretty it's really, really beautiful.

[1:07:50] Susan Blackwell: So I entered, I took the liberty of entering our zip codes onto this map, and I learned a little bit about your land, and I learned a little bit about my land. And I learned that the land that I'm on at this very moment as we record this podcast is Muncie Lenape land. And I learned some, but I want to learn more, especially about the history of this specific area. I couldn't find any treaties related to this area, but I think that there are there's more, obviously. Obviously, I'm stating the opposite, but there's so much more history to learn about the indigenous people that are related to this area.

[1:08:36] Susan Blackwell: So their site.

[1:08:39] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:08:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It's, I'm telling you, Camille, this is what this Sparks could be its own standalone podcast. I'm serious because you start digging into it and the history piece of it, the people piece of it, the past, present, and future of it all, like it is um it shoots off in so many different directions that it's it's a ton of sparks.

[1:09:12] Laura Camien: I can't hope someone creates that podcast.

[1:09:15] Susan Blackwell: That would be incredible.

[1:09:17] Laura Camien: Uh I would listen.

[1:09:18] Susan Blackwell: I would listen.

[1:09:19] Laura Camien: And it may exist, and I may just not know it yet.

[1:09:22] Susan Blackwell: So um per their site, which again is native-land.ca, I also wanted to learn about the indigenous people from this community. And I have to say, especially artists and creatives, since that is the focus of our work hands.

[1:09:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:09:40] Susan Blackwell: Um, the Native Governance Center back to their site, uh, where it was like kind of some some good guidelines for creating a land acknowledgement. They also note that correct pronunciation of the names of tribes and places and individuals that you're including in your land acknowledgement is important, which of course makes sense. But it's, I will just want to acknowledge it's scary sometimes to pronounce words and names that you're unfamiliar with.

[1:10:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:10:07] Susan Blackwell: But this is a chance to get familiar with them out of respect for the places and the people that you're acknowledging, acknowledging. But I just as a person who does a lot of like hosting and moderating where I have to introduce people, I get intimidated by just across the board, names, unfamiliar words, things like that. But it's sort of like it's a chance to dig in and learn more and you know, wrap your mouth around it.

[1:10:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:10:36] Susan Blackwell: So the site goes on to say when crafting a land acknowledgement, of course, you want to use appropriate language, and specifically you don't want to sugarcoat the past. Use terms, this is straight from their website. Use terms like genocide, ethnic cleansing, stolen land, and forced removal to reflect actions taken by colonizers, which I was like, yeah, lean in, lean in. And when you really start looking at the history, those are those are appropriate words. Those are appropriate words.

[1:11:09] Laura Camien: So use, they'll go on to say, use past, present, and future tenses. Indigenous people are still here and they're thriving. Don't treat them as a relic of the past.

[1:11:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:11:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:26] Susan Blackwell: Because I think sometimes we think, oh, and then the Europeans came and they settled America and then, you know, did wiped out entire tribes. But in actuality, there are surviving tribes who are thriving now.

[1:11:43] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:11:43] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:11:44] Laura Camien: Um land acknowledgements shouldn't be grim. Another great site that I read said they shouldn't sound like a prayer, which I, you know, like not this sort of solemn sort of thing. Uh, they should function as living celebrations of indigenous communities. Ask yourself, how am I leaving Indigenous people in a stronger, more empowered place because of this land acknowledgement? I thought that was key.

[1:12:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:12:01] Susan Blackwell: How am I leaving Indigenous people in a stronger, more empowered place because of this land acknowledgement? And it said, focus on the positivity of who Indigenous people are today. And again, to my earlier point, they that one of their guidelines stated there are many types of land acknowledgements. Don't expect to find a specific formula or template. Land acknowledgements that come from Indigenous people versus non-Indigenous people look different too. So it's not like you can just be like, oh, I'll do my land acknowledgement and I'll go online and I'll just be like, you have to do some work. You have to do some investigation and you have to do some work.

[1:12:49] Laura Camien: So speaking of doing work, next steps, of course, include taking action. Land acknowledgments alone are not enough. They are a starting point. And again, in the guidelines, they say, ask yourself, how do I plan to take action to support Indigenous communities? Some examples that they provide, ways to take action. Support Indigenous organizations by donating your time and or money. Support Indigenous-led grassroots change movements and campaigns. Encourage others to do so. We just went through an election. I mean, there are, you know, there are ways to support Indigenous candidates, for example.

[1:13:27] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[1:13:28] Laura Camien: Commit this, this one where I was like, whoa, wow, wow. Commit to returning land. And they provide guidelines for different ways that you can return land. Whoa.

[1:13:41] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, wow, like, what if you I was like, are they talking to like really rich people or developed organizations or cities? I also thought, what if you? This is a baller move. What if you like left you willed your land? Like upon your passing, you willed your land to an indigenous organization from your area.

[1:14:08] Laura Camien: Yep.

[1:14:09] Susan Blackwell: That's amazing. That'd be a strong move. Um, and then the website goes on. At the end of the day, remember, starting somewhere is better than not trying at all. They go on to say, we need to share in indigenous people's discomfort. They've been uncomfortable for a long time. And they quote Dr. Kate Bean of Flandro, Sante, Dakota, and Muskegee Creek, who says, we have to try, starting out with good intentions and a good heart is what matters most. And so I was like, that's just saying that makes me want to cry. Uh, but I'm like, yes, Dr. Kate Bean, um, let's start out with good intentions and a good heart. That is what matters.

[1:14:51] Laura Camien: So I've been digging cams and I have been learning more. Um, so on a on the website for the Muncie Delaware Nation, which is I feel I if I'm tracking this correctly, the land that I'm sitting on right now is included in that Muncy Delaware nation. There's a piece that is written and compiled by a historian named Mark Peters. And in it, I learned, and again, I am not great at history, and I'm not great at dates, and I'm not great at numbers. So, you know, I was holding on tight when you were talking about like the clans rising up. But I hope I under explained it.

[1:15:35] Laura Camien: There you go.

[1:15:35] Susan Blackwell: That it does help to visualize it. But um I was fascinating to hear you talk about that because in a way, this does become a companion spark to your spark in that this is about, you know, you have these clans or tribes, these people who have been indigenous to this land.

[1:15:54] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:15:54] Susan Blackwell: For like before recorded time. And you have um white European dudes primarily coming to seize it, essentially. Essentially, and to thwart, you know, um, talk about sovereignty, you know, their ability to rule themselves, uh, that was a threat. So this, you know, king of England had to um s tamper that down and and remove their way of living so that they were not a threat to strip people of their of their history, of their culture, of their, you know, actually isn't incredible. Sometimes of their companions of their the clothing that they wear, cutting their hair. Like, yeah, it's just right.

[1:16:41] Laura Camien: You have to be more like us so that we can control you.

[1:16:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. The one of the things that struck me as I was working on the spark, and I'm struck by it in our current things in our current political climate in our modern day, it's not even history yet, it's happening right now, but certainly in this research as well, is the human beings' capacity for cruelty and destruction towards others. I I it's very hard for me sometimes to wrap my mind around it, and yet it is occurring and has throughout time.

[1:17:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:17:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:17:19] Laura Camien: But back to back to this, uh, the great work of this historian, Mark Peters, um, who provided a lot of great information so that I could learn about this land that I'm living on and standing up. Thank you, Mark Peters.

[1:17:32] Laura Camien: Thank you, Mark Peters.

[1:17:34] Susan Blackwell: Mark Peters writes, and again, not great, I'm not great at history, not great at dates, not good doing good. You're doing good. Listen to this sentence. Human communities have been established in this area for at least 11,000 years.

[1:17:42] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:17:42] Susan Blackwell: Cameo.

[1:17:42] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:17:42] Susan Blackwell: 11,000 years.

[1:17:57] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:17:58] Susan Blackwell: So I've been here for three.

[1:18:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:18:01] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[1:18:02] Laura Camien: Yep.

[1:18:02] Susan Blackwell: This house has been here for about 40.

[1:18:05] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[1:18:06] Susan Blackwell: Think about that. 11,000 years.

[1:18:11] Laura Camien: Suze, I freaking love A. I love that you're going deep on the history. And just grasping that. I actually heard someone say during this pandemic, because they were tired of being like the shutdown. They were tired. And I heard someone say, like, we weren't made to live like this. Human beings were not made to like live and just like alone in their houses and um, like their families all together in a small space. Like we weren't made for it.

[1:18:41] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, talking about the last um 30 years with you know what I mean? Like you go back further and for you have one-room houses, you have huts, you have, you know what I mean? And you're I'm just like, exactly which part of human history are you talking about? The past 40. The past 40 years, we have been accustomed to living in mini mansions with a ton of space and the freedom to go anywhere and do anything we want to do.

[1:19:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:19:13] Susan Blackwell: Well, speaking of all of that, I in my learning, and thanks to historian Mark Peters, I have started to learn how the people indigenous to this land, how where how they lived, what their homes were like, what their lives were like, what happened when they came into contact with explorers in the 1500s and with Henry Hudson in 1609. Amazing it is thought that that contact with Europeans resulted in the spreading of disease that decimated the indigenous population.

[1:19:49] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:19:49] Susan Blackwell: In multiple places, yes.

[1:19:51] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:19:52] Susan Blackwell: And I thought this was actually fascinating. Um, Mark Peters noted no signs of palisades or other fortifications have been found in any of the village sites except one in the territory of the Muncie's, indicating that the Lenape were a generally peaceful people.

[1:20:10] Laura Camien: Which I thought was interesting because these people were living and thriving, um, you know, as far back as 11,000 years ago.

[1:20:21] Susan Blackwell: And uh without those fortifications. And so when Europeans came and made contact with them, it was just devastating.

[1:20:33] Laura Camien: Devastating.

[1:20:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Devastating.

[1:20:35] Laura Camien: Even even if they weren't violent toward them, and I don't know if they were in that area or not, but based on what you're saying, even if they weren't violent, the disease that they brought with them wreaked havoc on, you know, on their civilization.

[1:20:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, so even if they came in peace, you didn't bring peace with you. The destruction comes in so many forms. It is uh it is uh it's it boggles the mind.

[1:21:08] Laura Camien: It boggles my mind.

[1:21:10] Susan Blackwell: Um Mark Peters went on to say after the 1500s, more and more newcomers arrived and wanted to settle in the Muncie Delaware homeland. Our people would eventually be forced out. What followed was 200 years of wandering from place to place amid war, strife, and starvation, before our people would secure our current location in present day Ontario.

[1:21:33] Laura Camien: So just driven north and north and north.

[1:21:37] Susan Blackwell: Um today, their community is located on the northern shore of the Thames River, about two, pardon me, about 25 kilometers southwest of London, Ontario. The Muncie Delaware nation currently covers roughly three square kilometers. The nation has a registered population. This makes me of 547 people today, with 170 people living in the community cams. That is 547 people decimated from an estimated 65,000 people before European contact.

[1:22:15] Susan Blackwell: So the loss, the destruction, the damage, the trauma. It's just, uh, at this point, my head is swimming. So I reached out to my friend Stephanie Hendricks, who is a phenomenal teacher from Bangor, Maine. And she and I had both worked on the Met Opera Educators Conference recently. And she had included a land acknowledgement in her presentation. Oh wow. She began her presentation, which of course was virtual. And this was at an opera educators' conference. Okay. She began by saying, and I asked her, I was like, can you please like say slow say it to me again, slow it down because I want to take it in. She said, I'm connecting from the unceded ancestral lands of Maine's indigenous tribes, most notably the Penobscot Nation.

We need to be aware of the legacies of settler colonialism that have privileged some people over others. We need to work consciously to dismantle those systems because even though they were built in the past, we need to change things and figure out how to build things together that honor everyone's humanity and make space for healing. Dealing with what has happened, what is happening, and changing what is going to happen in the future. And then she flowed beautifully into her curriculum. Wow. That is well done. It was spoken from the heart. It was, it was just like fact. It was, it was so I wanted to talk to Stephanie and I wanted to learn more about in that because I knew because of the way she shared it, I was like, that yes, there is the spoken word of that land acknowledgement, but I could tell there was a lot of thought and a lot of work and a lot of investigation that had gone into that.

And she told me when I reached out to her, she told me that she was attending an academic conference when she first heard a land acknowledgement. Now she has a history degree. She taught AP history. She had never heard one before. And the more academic conferences she was attending, the more she heard. So she started digging and learning. And it strikes me that land acknowledgments seem to have like they're more firmly rooted in educational contexts. Sure. But I have thoughts about that. And I wanted to hear what Stephanie had to say about, I was like, Stephanie, what do you what do you make of this? Because it's not enough just to do a land acknowledgement, as we both know. It needs to be backed up by work.

And that work is sometimes uncomfortable. Confronting atrocities and trauma that have been and are being inflicted on Indigenous people, it is deeply uncomfortable, but it is important. It's important that we share that discomfort. And Stephanie said, um, Stephanie said to us in her land acknowledgement, as I just quoted, we do need to work consciously to dismantle those systems because even though they're built in the past, we need to change things and figure out how to build things together that honor everyone's humanity and make space for healing. So of course you can begin what one, what do we make of it is you can begin to do the work to craft a land acknowledgement, which means learning about the land you're currently on, not just historically, but the current state of affairs for this land's indigenous people, including people who may have been killed or forced from the land that you're living on.

Like now I'm sort of looking to, you know, indigenous people that are located in Canada because they have, you know, they had to flee so far north because they were, you know, I'm sure, yeah, forced to. Stephanie shared more things that we can make of this. Stephanie said, as a teacher, if I'm doing anti-bias, anti-racist work, I always start with a land acknowledgement because I need to weaponize my privilege so that the spaces I live in are healing spaces. And the curriculum needs to be an abolitionist curriculum. If I'm not doing the job of creating a space that makes people free, I am not doing my job. Wow. And that I wanted to just paint onto my wall like a mural. If I am not doing the job of creating a space that makes other people free, I am not doing my job.

I feel that in my bones. Amen. Wow. Amen, Stephanie. And thank you for that language and the clarity and mission and purpose of that language is incredible. Stephanie Hendricks is such a fucking good teacher. It is she rocks my world. So Stephanie also suggested another what do we make of it? And that is to conduct an equity audit of all the authors you're reading, the TV and film you're watching, who you follow on social media, and see if it's a bunch of people who essentially look and sound like you. And if so, expand that and be sure to include indigenous people. So she started following Indigenous scholars and reading and teaching Native writers in her classrooms. And she began watching and teaching documentaries like First Light and Dear Georgina.

Y'all, Sparklers, if you are listening to this, get your Sparks file out. And I want you to put this in there, put this on your watch list. First Light and Dear Georgina are two powerful short form documentaries. And Dawn Land is a full-length documentary that you can currently watch for free on PBS during Native American Heritage Month, which if you're listening to this podcast when it has been released, which is in November of 2020, it's right now. It's right now. It's right now. Oh, Suze, how timely. And I'm so happy you're doing this work. Um, but I'm those, I want to tell you like this is not some of this stuff is like these docs are tough. You're gonna you're gonna learn some stuff about our shared history that is rough.

Um, things that I'm gonna be honest with you, I did not know about. And it's it's rough, but it's necessary. Yeah, it's hard. That that's the hard work. That's just a piece of the hard work, actually. Back to what do we make of it. I'm also interested in learning uh more about indigenous creatives and makers, both from this area but from all of North America and well, frankly, the world, who we can highlight on this podcast, right? So if there's anybody as we're talking about this that you're like, they would be amazing. Um, another what do we make of it? I think it would be powerful to normalize land acknowledgments to energize and advance this work. And to that end, I was moderating a panel for, as I said, for theater makers yesterday, uh, theater makers from far and wide.

And in my introduction, I just said this. Welcome, theater makers. I'm Susan Blackwell, and I'm so pleased to be joining you today from Muncie Lenape Land, which is also known as upstate New York. And I heard somebody on the panel, and I couldn't tell who it was because my eyes weren't looking at the screen. Yeah. I was looking at the camera and I heard one of the panelists go, huh? And I thought, maybe one of the people listening to this will hear that and have the same thought I had when I was listening to On Being, which might lead them to their own investigation of the land that they're living on and working on. That's incredible. Yes. But listen, before I get too excited and congratulating myself, I just want to acknowledge I have so much more work and learning to do.

And as I said at the top, this is a work in progress, and I'm going to keep doing that work. But I would like to be get, oh my gosh, I'm getting emotional. I would like to begin today by including a land acknowledgement on our podcast from this episode forward. Yes. And here it goes. And it's just some language, but it's indicative of work that lives beneath that language. It goes like this. This episode of The Spark File was made on Muncie Lenape and Seminole Land. Yes. Yes. Yes. Susan, yes. I wish I could hug you. Oh my God. I'll tell you. Cams, the reason I think I'm I feel emotional is because it's just like in doing the spark, uh, you really begin, begin to come face to face with the, like I said earlier, human beings inhumanity towards other human beings.

Yeah. And all the ways that um that has been made manifest. You know, when we say our definition of creativity is applied imagination that fights for the powers of good. There's been a lot of applied imagination in our shared history that does not fight for the powers of good. It is really um, it is so dark. It is so violent. And uh, you know, as Meta Wagner mapped out in her five creative types, I am a sensitive soul. And taking it in is it's it's like watching a horror movie, but it's real. This shit is really happening and really happened, and it um it's a lot. And so I think a little bit of my emotion is just like it's a lot, but you know what? I can take it. It's a lot in terms of our country, it's a lot in terms of the history of humanity.

I mean, we very much want to believe that peace and love can overcome, but it's that is truly yet to be determined because if you look throughout human history, it has been about um power taken often violently from others. So, you know, Roman Empire or the British Empire, or, you know, on and on, you Egyptians, it's throughout time. And it feels like we're at a moment where perhaps more people want to make sure that changes. And let us hope that let us hope that is true that we can make a lasting change in our country and perhaps globally that can and I just want to encourage I'm saying this to myself but I'm saying it to anybody who's listening like if this is if this is sparkish to you and you want to dig in like we are strong conduits.

We can we can take it we can we can do this work. And as Dr. Kate Bean said, we have to try starting out with good intentions and a good heart is what matters most. We have to try we have to try. We have to try. Should we um put this little spark file to bed for today? We'll tuck ourselves in and sleep on all of that. Friends listen we hope that all of this put another bunch of sparks in your file listen if there is a spark that you'd like us to explore or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share it, we hope you'll email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback but you know the price of admission first you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

And you please follow us on social media at the sparkfile. And be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really does help other listeners to find us. So it's a great free, easy way for you to support this podcast if you like it. Also, if you like this podcast, we do hope you'll share it with people you love. And if you didn't like it, it's okay. It's okay. It's gonna be okay. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. Make it. Thanks everybody. Bye, friends. Bye. When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark files. I jump into my spark files. Let's open up the spark files.