This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark spot.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Susan Blackwell: Right there.

[0:38] Laura Camien: The spark file.

[0:39] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the phone. This is your one-stop shop for all sorts of creative inspiration.

[0:43] Laura Camien: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:45] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:46] Laura Camien: We are makers who make all sorts of things.

[0:48] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time.

[0:49] Laura Camien: And if you're like us, you like making stuff all the time.

[0:52] Susan Blackwell: You know that sometimes the wellspring of inspiration gets a little dry.

[0:56] Laura Camien: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to get off our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:06] Susan Blackwell: Or a piece of pottery.

[1:09] Laura Camien: Or a graphic novel that documents your entire 16th year on the planet Earth.

[1:16] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[1:16] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:17] Susan Blackwell: So every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks.

[1:21] Laura Camien: And then we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us as well.

[1:24] Susan Blackwell: And if you're not careful, you just might get your sparks re-sparked.

[1:29] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up.

[1:35] Susan Blackwell: Listen, in case you are joining us for the first time, welcome.

[1:39] Laura Camien: Welcome.

[1:40] Susan Blackwell: Hi.

[1:40] Laura Camien: In case that introduction didn't make sense to you, we really are on the hunt for creative ideas or just ideas, like things that give us when we hear it, when we run into it, when we see it, it like gives us a visceral response that we could utilize for something creative, or you could utilize for something creative.

[2:03] Susan Blackwell: You could take it.

[2:05] Laura Camien: That is the point of this bucket of bullshit.

[2:07] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[2:08] Laura Camien: It's for you, the listener.

[2:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, take it.

[2:12] Laura Camien: It's some ideas.

[2:12] Susan Blackwell: Take it the thing.

[2:13] Laura Camien: We didn't want it.

[2:15] Susan Blackwell: You know, listen, I don't want these ideas.

[2:17] Laura Camien: Please take them off my hands.

[2:19] Susan Blackwell: Please.

[2:20] Laura Camien: Please.

[2:21] Susan Blackwell: Um, but seriously.

[2:23] Laura Camien: I'm good.

[2:23] Susan Blackwell: I'm good, Susan.

[2:24] Laura Camien: Yeah, I got some good news and then some disappointing news today.

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: What's that?

[2:29] Laura Camien: Well, I read that they used DNA evidence to figure out who Jack the Ripper was.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but then I read that that was probably bullshit.

[2:38] Laura Camien: It's a build-up letdown.

[2:41] Susan Blackwell: I know, right? That's what I'm saying. I got some good news and some bad news.

[2:44] Laura Camien: Apparently, they did publish, like for the first time, they published this DNA results, and it was a guy who was always like on their list of suspects.

[2:57] Susan Blackwell: Where the fuck do they have DNA that's been on one of the knives that was left at the scene?

[3:05] Laura Camien: But I was wondering how did I get this guy's DNA? Has it been in a ye olde refrigerator all this time?

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[3:12] Laura Camien: I don't know. I think that's part of why it's questionable.

[3:16] Susan Blackwell: But um, yeah, so they this was like this was the good and the bad.

[3:22] Laura Camien: I was like, yes, I feel some sense of completion.

[3:25] Susan Blackwell: I've been on one of those Jack the Ripper tours in London.

[3:28] Laura Camien: Do you like this?

[3:29] Susan Blackwell: Uh I don't know why. I just feel like it's one of those things.

[3:32] Laura Camien: I think of myself as being some true crime fan.

[3:36] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[3:36] Laura Camien: Yes.

[3:37] Susan Blackwell: Um, you're more true crimey than me, probably, but I still but you Jack the Ripper.

[3:37] Laura Camien: Jack the Ripper.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I've like walked those streets and there's people obviously who make a living and talk about taking it and making it.

[3:49] Laura Camien: It's people who've made a living creating these tours out of the spots where Jack the Ripper killed people.

[3:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:57] Laura Camien: Um I don't think I need that.

[3:59] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I gotta say sorry, I was gonna say it brought it a lot to life for me in a way.

[4:07] Laura Camien: And I was like, no, that's not right.

[4:09] Susan Blackwell: Um it did it make it real?

[4:11] Laura Camien: It did make it real.

[4:12] Susan Blackwell: And plus, you know, in London everything is you know tour guides 700 years old.

[4:17] Laura Camien: So you're sort of like, this really is the exact spot.

[4:20] Susan Blackwell: It's not like, oh, 14 buildings have been built in this spot since then. Like it's like ran through these cobblestones.

[4:27] Laura Camien: That's right.

[4:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, good.

[4:28] Laura Camien: Yeah, it made it real.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: But now I'm a little bit amazed because if you think about it, he only killed five people.

[4:35] Laura Camien: And sorry, that's five people too many.

[4:38] Susan Blackwell: But it's amazing how that looks like stuck.

[4:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:42] Susan Blackwell: It's really interesting what captures the public's imagination and what's that's right.

[4:49] Laura Camien: It's not like it's the only unsolved crime.

[4:51] Susan Blackwell: I mean, it's just amazing that it has stuck with us.

[4:54] Laura Camien: It's got legs, something you should do a musical about that.

[4:58] Susan Blackwell: Wait. Weren't you and I talking about Casanova?

[5:01] Laura Camien: Yes.

[5:01] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:02] Laura Camien: I was like, who were we talking about recently?

[5:04] Susan Blackwell: Casanova.

[5:05] Laura Camien: Like how many ladies do you have to get down with?

[5:09] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[5:10] Laura Camien: That still we call 400 years later, your legacy is how many ladies you slept with.

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:18] Laura Camien: Right?

[5:19] Susan Blackwell: That's something.

[5:19] Laura Camien: I mean, come on.

[5:20] Susan Blackwell: That's what I thought.

[5:21] Laura Camien: Movies, poetry, Casanova.

[5:24] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[5:24] Laura Camien: I'm gonna name my first baby Casanova.

[5:27] Susan Blackwell: But it's what we're talking about today.

[5:28] Laura Camien: This is what's happening today.

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: Um, do you want to get into it?

[5:33] Laura Camien: You know, I do.

[5:34] Susan Blackwell: Um, who did we decide who's going first?

[5:38] Laura Camien: You're gonna go first because I was taking a step.

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: Okay, I'm doing I'm doing an experiment tonight.

[5:44] Laura Camien: Okay.

[5:45] Susan Blackwell: Today I'm gonna share what I need you got a crazy look on your face.

[5:51] Laura Camien: You excited?

[5:52] Susan Blackwell: I'm so excited.

[5:53] Laura Camien: Excitable.

[5:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I know. I was trying to explain to somebody when we sit down to record these.

[5:58] Laura Camien: It feels it does feel like I'm about to get a present.

[6:02] Susan Blackwell: And I'm about to give a present.

[6:03] Laura Camien: It feels like a gift exchange.

[6:05] Susan Blackwell: I got you this candle.

[6:07] Laura Camien: Um but it's from anthropology.

[6:11] Susan Blackwell: I love this candle.

[6:14] Laura Camien: Um today I'm going to share what I'm calling a reverse spark.

[6:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[6:19] Laura Camien: This is a reverse spark.

[6:21] Susan Blackwell: I'm making up a lot of terminology.

[6:23] Laura Camien: We've got our dark spark. This is a reverse spark.

[6:26] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[6:27] Laura Camien: I thought it might be fun. I could be full of shit, but I thought it might be fun and interesting to share with you and listeners, you, something that I made and then track it back to its root sparks.

[6:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[6:41] Laura Camien: Is that crazy?

[6:42] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[6:43] Laura Camien: I just realized I went to high school with a kid named Ralph Sparks.

[6:46] Susan Blackwell: Hey, I went to school with Lance Sparks.

[6:49] Laura Camien: This is crazy.

[6:51] Susan Blackwell: What's crazy?

[6:52] Laura Camien: People who have verbs as their last name.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: I loved it.

[6:55] Laura Camien: He was an athlete, and I was just like Steve Burns.

[6:59] Susan Blackwell: How badass is that?

[7:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[7:01] Susan Blackwell: He burned it.

[7:02] Laura Camien: What's Steve Like Sparks?

[7:03] Susan Blackwell: Steve Burns.

[7:04] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: Um, okay.

[7:06] Laura Camien: So today's reverse spark.

[7:08] Susan Blackwell: I'm just gonna go ahead.

[7:09] Laura Camien: You know, you know. Some of you will know this, some of you won't, but it is the Golden Palace.

[7:14] Susan Blackwell: So the end creative product was a piece that I made called The Golden Palace.

[7:19] Laura Camien: And if you haven't heard it, it's basically a story with music.

[7:23] Susan Blackwell: And I made it in collaboration, Tiny Tip of the Hat, with Hunter Bell, Heidi Blinkenstaff, Jeff Bowen, Larry Pressgrove, and Michael Baress.

[7:30] Laura Camien: Yay.

[7:30] Susan Blackwell: You can listen to it on my website, or better yet, go buy it on iTunes.

[7:35] Laura Camien: Just go buy it.

[7:36] Susan Blackwell: Spend that 99 cents.

[7:38] Laura Camien: You got it.

[7:38] Susan Blackwell: It's well worth it.

[7:39] Laura Camien: I'm gonna say you can't get a lot for 99 cents these days.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: But I think you can get it going.

[7:43] Laura Camien: Is it 99 cents or is it like it's probably a dollar and ninety-nine?

[7:46] Susan Blackwell: It's still worth it.

[7:47] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[7:47] Susan Blackwell: It's still worth it.

[7:48] Laura Camien: You need it more than you need a candy bar.

[7:50] Susan Blackwell: Um, so the piece is about my dad who grew up in a big old house full of kids, and that family was poor and they were kind of neglected.

[8:00] Laura Camien: And he would sometimes go to school and he sometimes wouldn't.

[8:03] Susan Blackwell: And when he was at school, they taught reading via repetition, and he was a good mimic.

[8:08] Laura Camien: So even though he couldn't read, they didn't detect his illiteracy until about third grade.

[8:15] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[8:16] Laura Camien: But once they did, and they got him on the good path, he actually, my dad is really intelligent, really, really intelligent.

[8:24] Susan Blackwell: And he's also, in addition to being a wonderful father, he's also a beautiful writer and a poet.

[8:28] Laura Camien: Though if you tell him that, he cannot, cannot accept the compliment.

[8:34] Susan Blackwell: And as recently as last week, I was having a conversation with him, and I told him, just in passing, I was like, well, the thing is like you're a really good writer, but he's like, no, no, like he cannot take it in.

[8:45] Laura Camien: So the Golden Palace was my way of talking about my father and his gifts and his insecurities and how I inherited gifts and insecurities from him, but how I also stand on his shoulders because of the things that he and my mother exposed me to and the education that they supported.

[9:00] Susan Blackwell: So um, but it's also about how I really did used to feel like there wasn't there wasn't a place for me in the world as a creative person, or there wasn't a place for me at the table.

[9:15] Laura Camien: And I just want to read you like a little bit from the Golden Palace.

[9:19] Susan Blackwell: Yes, please.

[9:20] Laura Camien: Um, but seriously, buy this on iTunes because it's good, it's good.

[9:24] Susan Blackwell: I'm super proud of it, and modest as hell.

[9:27] Laura Camien: Um, this is from the The Golden.

[9:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh, this is from the musical now.

[9:31] Laura Camien: Hear this by the by.

[9:32] Susan Blackwell: Just get the whole cast recording.

[9:34] Laura Camien: Do it.

[9:35] Susan Blackwell: It's just filled with gift.

[9:38] Laura Camien: There you go.

[9:39] Susan Blackwell: The Golden Palace is where the beautiful people and the great thinkers of this and previous generations convene to bask in each other's brilliance and to create all the great works of art.

[9:51] Laura Camien: It's all going down in the golden palace.

[9:54] Susan Blackwell: Michelangelo's David, To Kill a Mockingbird, The X-Men.

[9:59] Laura Camien: Yes.

[10:00] Susan Blackwell: Great work, worthy work.

[10:02] Laura Camien: And the people that populate that place and pump out those important paintings and poems and pieces are deeply intelligent, stunning, clean, privileged people.

[10:12] Susan Blackwell: There is no room in the golden palace for girls like me, weird girls, girls who come from what I come from.

[10:20] Laura Camien: So that's just like a little tiny piece.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: But it really, I've spent um a real good chunk of my life feeling like that.

[10:30] Laura Camien: So I wanted to just share with you where some of my sparks came from, just as a sort of an illustration.

[10:37] Susan Blackwell: Sparks, as we've discussed on this podcast many times, can come from so many different places.

[10:43] Laura Camien: And this is where this sparks are these as sparks, you guys.

[10:51] Susan Blackwell: Um, so it all started when Malcolm Gladwell came out with a book called Outliers.

[10:59] Laura Camien: I didn't look up what year it was published.

[11:02] Susan Blackwell: It was around that time, a time ago.

[11:05] Laura Camien: So most people associate that book, uh, Outliers, with the theory of 10,000 hours.

[11:11] Susan Blackwell: Have you heard that before?

[11:13] Laura Camien: Do you know when people are like, oh, 10,000 hours?

[11:15] Susan Blackwell: Um, no.

[11:16] Laura Camien: 10,000 hours.

[11:18] Susan Blackwell: Malcolm Gladwell posited that 10,000 hours of deliberate practice are needed to become world class in any field.

[11:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[11:25] Susan Blackwell: So he was his thought that the Beatles and Bill Gates could become the Beatles and Bill Gates because in addition to other advantages like socioeconomical and place they were in the right place at the right time, they had 10,000 hours to practice their specialties.

[11:43] Laura Camien: Like Bill Gates had access to a personal computer because of like where his mom worked.

[11:49] Susan Blackwell: They figured out a way to like rig the um, I can't remember what it's called, but like basically to have as much time on that personal computer as they wanted.

[12:00] Laura Camien: So before personal computers were out in the world, he was clocking his 10,000 hours.

[12:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:06] Laura Camien: The Beatles, like, you know, like played and played and played and played and played and played and played and played.

[12:13] Susan Blackwell: And played for years before they became like the baby that the world was exposed to.

[12:19] Laura Camien: But 10,000 hours is not what I think of when I think of outliers.

[12:19] Susan Blackwell: When I think of outliers, I think of the work of a sociologist named Annette Lareau.

[12:27] Laura Camien: I had the audiobook, I'm gonna burp.

[12:30] Susan Blackwell: You're welcome.

[12:31] Laura Camien: I had the audio book, Outliers, and I remember hearing about Annette's work for the first time.

[12:36] Susan Blackwell: Her work articulated something that I felt so keenly, but I didn't have the language for.

[12:43] Laura Camien: And when I heard it articulated, I had such a strong visceral response to it.

[12:50] Susan Blackwell: Like I remember so clearly sitting in the passenger seat of the car and hearing this and just getting super mad.

[13:02] Laura Camien: Like really, really angry, like a very strong visceral reaction.

[13:05] Susan Blackwell: But let's back that shit up.

[13:07] Laura Camien: Girl, I'm gonna unpack it.

[13:09] Susan Blackwell: You better tell me.

[13:11] Laura Camien: Um, what the information I'm about to share comes largely from Wikipedia and also from an awesome free online course offered by the Stanford Center on Poverty and Inequality.

[13:22] Susan Blackwell: I stumbled onto this cool, free online course that you can take anytime.

[13:28] Laura Camien: And uh it's both like I think you can do like online work, and there's videos and stuff like that.

[13:35] Susan Blackwell: So she has a video, Annette Lareau.

[13:37] Laura Camien: And in it she says, We live in an unequal society, and we know that families matter.

[13:43] Susan Blackwell: Families are a big predictor of children's outcomes in many areas.

[13:46] Laura Camien: Depending on the family you're raised in, you can have different levels of health, income, education.

[13:51] Susan Blackwell: Right? We all know that.

[13:52] Laura Camien: That's right.

[13:53] Susan Blackwell: So she conducted this study and she examined parenting in middle class families and working class and poor families. They've studied 88 families, and within that, there was a mix of African American families and white families because she wanted to understand the impact that social class made on the difference in children's lives. Her work then argues that regardless of race, social economic class will determine how children cultivate the skills that they use in the future. So, like more than like the color of your skin, your social economic class will be a major determiner.

[14:35] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[14:36] Susan Blackwell: Determiner, determining factor on making up words. So she's she made it very clear all the families in the study loved their children, but they had different ideas about how they would raise their children. And I think when I have historically thought of parenting styles, I think, oh, those parents are strict, those parents are lax, those parents overbearing, those parents are absent, those parents are neglectable, those parents spoil their kids. But in her work, she boiled it down to two ways of raising kids: concerted cultivation and natural growth. Concerted cultivation and natural growth. So I think of concerted cultivation as those families that have very structured schedules. They teach children how to advocate for themselves.

And I think of natural growth as throwing the kids into the backyard and then playing until dinner time and then come again and not sassing back. Like just in a nutshell. But those are my words. And Annette's words, natural growth, which was a type of parenting that was exhibited more in working class and poor families. The parents were very clear, they would give directions. There wasn't a lot of talk back from the children. There wasn't a lot of questioning that came from the kids. When concerted cultivation parents gave direction, the children would talk a great deal. They would protest, they would whine, they would badger to get what they wanted.

[16:00] Laura Camien: Right.

[16:00] Susan Blackwell: So by definition, wait, were you gonna say something?

[16:03] Laura Camien: I was gonna say that doesn't sound good.

[16:05] Susan Blackwell: Well, the way you described concerted cultivation sounded pretty good, but that doesn't sound like neither, and Malcolm Gladwell made this clear in Outliers, and Annette makes it clear in her work that it's not that either is better or worse. And there's certainly other factors that would inform but it does set the child and eventually the adult that the child grows into up for different a different life.

[16:38] Laura Camien: Got it.

[16:39] Susan Blackwell: Got it. Because if you're a kid who the parents, like you're basically being taught how to advocate for yourself, yeah, part of that means arguing and saying, no, I you know, for like I'll tell you why I should get to stay up an hour later every night. Or you know instead of just like be silent, you're a kid, shut up and go to bed. Like the adult as Billy, as they say in Sling Blade, the adults are talking now.

[17:05] Laura Camien: That's right.

[17:06] Susan Blackwell: Um, so natural growth, which is more in working class and poor families. Parents were very clear, they'd give directions. There wasn't a lot of talk back from um blah blah and concerted cultivation. When the parents give direction, there's blah blah blah, the whining and badgering and advocating. And yeah. Um, so by definition, the working class parents and the poor parents did not have a college degree. So my parents, I always think of my parents as being very working class. Um, but eventually, eventually they got there with their education. Like it took longer, but they did get there.

[17:47] Laura Camien: They did they finish their degrees after having kids?

[17:51] Susan Blackwell: My dad went back and got his MBA this and we graduated from graduate school the same year.

[17:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[17:59] Susan Blackwell: That's pretty cool.

[18:00] Laura Camien: Yeah, it is. And I just think how so he bootstrapped himself, you know.

[18:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[18:07] Laura Camien: But there was a lot of like factory work and a lot of like you know hard some manual labor until that. But she says um many people in the working class, many working class and poor parents are high school dropouts. And also stresses that it's important to remember that at least 15%, at least 15% of Americans are functionally illiterate. So it's reasonable on the part of those parents to turn education over to the school. They're waiting for the tea the tea the teacher's job is teaching and those um natural growth parents are waiting for the teachers to send them a form to give them information. Like it's a more I respond to it when it comes yeah by contrast the concerted cultivation parents were very energetic and taking the lead with the children's education in school.

So for instance a mother this is this is all Annette's work but a mother would have the school number in her cell phone and another mother in the study badgered the school to admit her child into the gifted program, even though the child wasn't really qualified for it.

[19:19] Laura Camien: But that's sort of like aggressive.

[19:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. For the for the sake of the kid, like, you know, and the the kid sees that and is like, that's how we operate. Like that's and sees that being modeled. Does that make sense?

[19:35] Laura Camien: It does. It does.

[19:37] Susan Blackwell: Just hearing what you've heard thus far. Let me read a little more. And then I'm curious to know where you feel like you all fell in this. Do you say what you were going to say?

[19:46] Laura Camien: No.

[19:47] Susan Blackwell: What we'll say.

[19:48] Laura Camien: Say it.

[19:48] Susan Blackwell: Say it with your mouth.

[19:49] Laura Camien: I was just curious about because I feel like where it this might be headed is that are you going to say, I don't want to spoil it, but that the concerted efforts, the concerted cultivation, cultivation parents, their kids got further ahead than the rest of us.

[20:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Spoiler alert.

[20:08] Laura Camien: It's a fun research.

[20:11] Susan Blackwell: Fascinating. Yeah. I guess because as I'm listening, and my dad was a teacher, and so I'm thinking of it like from his point of view, and the downside of parents who get involved like that.

[20:22] Laura Camien: There is a downside.

[20:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So that's where my mind was going to. But hold that. And when we get there, I want to talk about that. Okay. Coming back to it. Um so middle class that is concerted cultivation children tend to be very busy. They have all those organized activities that are structured by adults allegedly for fun and leisure, but they're a lot like school, like soccer, ballet and Sunday school and all that. Yeah. Jazz lessons. Um working class and natural growth children had many important skills, like they could play outside by themselves. They're much nicer to their siblings than middle class children.

[21:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:06] Susan Blackwell: Like less like meses.

[21:08] Laura Camien: Yep.

[21:09] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I would say the way she these are my words, not hers, but maybe like a little more easily disciplined. Um the natural growth children had a way of create of having creativity and autonomy that the middle class kids didn't have. But those middle class concerted cultivation kids had skills that were valued by schools and other institutions. So they learned how to interact with people in positions of authority. They learned how to be extremely organized from all of their extremely organized activities, and they learned how to negotiate with people. Because mom, I should get to stay up an extra hour later on a school night. Um, they learned how to use language, and because those school, those skills are valued in schools and jobs, those those concerted cultivation kids had advantages that the working class and poor kids didn't slash don't have.

[22:04] Laura Camien: That's right.

[22:06] Susan Blackwell: Um wow. Yeah. So when she did she did this work, she did this study of these 88 families, and then she followed up with those children over the next decade. And the natural growth children, she said about half aspired, or the parents aspired for their kids to go to college, about half, but fewer than that take the basic college prep classes that are required, and even fewer take the SAT. And of those, even fewer apply and attend college classes. So they're extremely intelligent, successful, natural growth children who do want to go to college and their parents want them to go to college. But but again, this is a nut saying there are formidable barriers to making that happen. And it's not only about money, it's about the cultural knowledge and having the information.

So one she was it's a beautiful the way that that course, the little bit that I looked at is it's really beautifully structured because I could see how just that tiny little five-minute video could be super helpful. One thing that she recommended that if parents in a natural growth setting were interested in providing, like interested in their kid going to college and they don't have that information, she recommended basically basic networking, which is talk to people at your church, talk to people in your extended family network or in your child's school, and maybe get their help to translate what some of those what she called critical steps in achieving the American dream. Because even though they both came from such uh tough backgrounds, tough backgrounds, like they really provided us with a bunch of culture and they really did advance their generation and took us to see plays and like took us to workshops that we thought they thought we would be interested in.

[24:18] Susan Blackwell: Um, but it was only as an adult that I saw and it P.S. It was a goddamn chakaroo when I saw children and young adults that were being raised in an environment of concerted cultivation, where their parents were like working to get them into special schools and making sure that they were in programs that would give them an advantage, like having the foresight to be like, well, they might want to go to an Ivy League college. So we're gonna have to get those activities going now. Do you know what I mean?

[24:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[24:50] Susan Blackwell: I was like, what? But there was also it can be like you were saying, it can be fraught. There's pressure, there's like all this like really intense networking and all this stuff that I'm just like, oh boy, that makes me tired. But those concerted cultivation children, they do have more resource resources. They can be tutored, they can apply to all sorts of safety schools. They're there's more resources provided by their parents, but often it's what Annette calls invisible. And then the kids proclaim themselves to be the ones who did it, like when they get into the school or their first, you know, first choice school. And anything can be fixed by mom and dad if they get themselves into a predicament.

[25:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[25:30] Susan Blackwell: They don't necessarily see the many, many efforts that went into it on the part of their parents and their class position that made that outcome possible. Um so a few more differences. A child that has been concertedly cultivated will often express greater social prowess and social situations involving formality or structure attributed, you know, it's that classic like you walk into a like a fancy restaurant or a fancy wedding, and it's like being able to like easily fit into exclamation, yeah, yeah, easily like know your audience.

[26:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[26:05] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I want this is to your point. While this pattern of child rearing holds no innate positive qualities, it has been linked to an increase in financial and academic success. But negative considerations have included an overburdened sense of entitlement, potentially disrespectful behavior towards authority figures, lack of creativity, and the psychosomatic inability to play or relax.

[26:29] Laura Camien: Well, sure, because they're not really solving those problems.

[26:32] Susan Blackwell: They're not really like it started out talking about like them learning to advocate for themselves, but really during those years, like mom and dad are advocating for them.

[26:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[26:41] Susan Blackwell: That might be a good thing to model, but it sounds like it didn't all it doesn't all end up great. What were you just say more about like when your dad, your dad was a teacher and a coach, and were there those parents that were pushing it?

[26:54] Laura Camien: It's weird because like there are certain things that I relate to on both of those different descriptions because we were definitely working class. My mom didn't graduate from college. She met my dad. My dad was a teacher and a coach. And um, but when we went to school, there was no solving our problems for us. My dad, like I could not come home and be like, ah, I got a B plus and Mr. Ann and we round up my grade. My dad was like, You great figure that out.

[27:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I was, I was, I was like, I only got one B. No, I mean I earned all my A's, Susan. Just kidding.

[27:30] Laura Camien: Oh, obnoxious.

[27:32] Susan Blackwell: I grubbed, I grabbed. No, but like, like um, the idea, I had friends who would go home and be like, Oh, Mr. Vandelska doesn't like me.

[27:41] Susan Blackwell: And their parents would like buy that. My dad would be like, Why doesn't he like you? What are you doing to cause that? Instead of going in and being like that. I'd like to have a meeting with Mr. Vinduska. Oh my god, yeah. My dad, no way. And you're like, figure that out. I work with a lot of teachers who they like were in theater departments, and when their child doesn't get cast inside, oh my god. Then the parent becomes, you know, just this nightmare parent. Yeah. And I I'm glad that wasn't, I didn't have that. Yeah, me too. Me too. My dad would, there was just no way, and I knew that was just never gonna be an excuse. There was always it was always on me to figure that out. And what was the lesson to be learned?

If you didn't get cast, what could you have done differently? If you didn't get that home run, why not? I've also been privy to like in incredibly close proximity to um even like college age and post college age adult children who are so supported by their parents that they like help them. I don't know why I'm so astounded when I say this. But here I go. Help them get jobs. Like when I said it, I I was like, for half the world or for some portion of the world, they're like, yeah, of course they we help of course that's how the world turns. And I'm like, I I can't imagine I can't imagine being in a position where my mother or father networked on my behalf to get me an interview to get a job at the Oh my god, but this is the like the one, but it was I wasn't until I was adult that I was like learned that this is how the world turns for a lot of people.

That's true, yeah. That is so true. So not for us, Susan. We're just hardworking scrappers, strivers, too, scrappy kids. So, but her book, Annette LaRoe's book, is called Unequal Childhoods. Yeah, yeah. And it encourages us to better understand the impact that social class has on our educational and life choices and such decisions as who we will marry, where we will live, how we will find jobs, um, that that social class is a he owned part of that. So when I learned about, so that's a bunch about Annette Lerau and her awesome work. When I learned about concerted cultivation versus natural growth, I realized our family provided a little bit, a little bit of concerted cultivation, but mostly was a family of natural growth.

Like was really like go play outside. That's right, come in when it's dinner time. But I'll tell you, I got, as I said, I got so mad and I thought, I mean really angry. I was angry for kind of a while. And I thought, what could I have been if I had been supported? If I had known what educational opportunities were available to me, if I had been trained to speak confidently to adults, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so much of this stuff came to me later in life, and I pursued it to fill in the pieces that were missing. So I used to be mad at here's a list my high school guidance counselor, my parents, my former teachers, because I thought, what could I have, where how far could I have come already?

That's right. If I had had more guidance. Of course. So a little bit about my mom. This is not in Golden Palace, um, but a little bit about my mom. So my mother attended an all-girls Catholic school and graduated first in her class. Wow. Yeah. As a valedictorian, she's it's funny because hard scrabble. Yeah. Yeah. Um just like I think they her parents had a little bit of money, but uh, but my grandfather was very, very um tight with a dollar, and so for the there was a long time where my mom only had her school uniform, her Catholic school uniform and her pajamas. Oh my gosh. That was it. Oh that was all she had until she taught herself to sew so she could have clothes. Yeah. So my mother attended this this all girls Catholic school.

She was first in her class as valedictorian. She was offered a full ride scholarship to the University of Dayton. And the headline, we have the article, my mother saved it, it's yellowed in a drawer somewhere. The headline in the Dayton paper read high school senior turns down juicy UD scholarship to go to nursing school. Oh and I remember, like as an adult, I remember reading that when I was younger, and I was just like, I thought it was mind-blowing. And as an adult, I said, Can we talk? Can we can we talk about this? Why did you turn that down? And she said, in truth, she had never even considered taking the scholarship. She didn't have a lot of social skills. Yes, how could you if you only didn't have any clues and you couldn't go out in your pajamas or your school uniform?

Like, so she was she didn't have a lot of social skills, and the idea of going to university frightened her. Her parents didn't really prize education, and none of her teachers, not not a single teacher ever offered her any guidance or challenged her and said, You can do this. Oh my gosh. Not a one. Or maybe they figured she was all set in her plans, which she felt like was also true. She planned on getting married and going into nursing, and that's what she did. And nobody ever challenged her. That's right. So all of this is to say they didn't know. Right. But I also think that, and and P. S. I think we all do the best we can, and they did great. Like they did great. But also I think, or I I believe for myself, you get to a certain age and you can't be mad at the past like you can't carry it on.

You can't. I can't. I feel like I have to take responsibility for how I am going to engage in the world and how I am going to move through the world. And you can't just be like, I can't believe I wasn't breathing in a moment where my parents talking to network. Like fuck off, Susan. So that's that's another chunk of it. So there's Annette LaReau, right? There's my real parents, my real awesome parents. So then I would um my friend Hunter Bell, Jeff Bowen, Heidi Blick and stuff, Larry Prescott, Michael Bress made uh and produced by Lauren Gambian, made the show title of show. And it was this musical. And we Hunter Bell and I started co-teaching um like creativity workshops. And we would get asked, like, how did you guys go from four friends sitting at home making Project Runaway jokes to four friends sitting on a Broadway stage making project?

Project runway jokes. And Hunter used to say this thing near the beginning of class. Um that I was so that really struck me. And the teacher became the student. He would say that for a long time, we he and I believed that somewhere far from us there was a place, another place where people who were different from us, more well educated, more attractive, more intelligent, more feeling. We're making all the great stuff. Um, but what we wanted ourselves and the our students to realize is that if we wanted to make art, we could make it. If we had a story to tell or a song to sing, we could sing it. And hearing him say that was a real breakthrough for me. And simultaneously living through a creative process where side by side with my friends, I was making my own work.

That was a real breakthrough for me. And I realized that yeah, I could be raised in an environment of natural growth and enjoy all the positive benefits of that and still learn how to navigate institutions and grant proposals and all sorts of social interactions. I could learn to speak to all the people as if they were my peers, which was the thing that led me to corn the phrase, no one is above me, no one is below me, haters to the left. It comes out of this because I was like, I felt for so long like I was um less than or subjugated myself to other people because I thought everybody had this concerted cultivation thing figured out. And then I was like, don't do that to yourself, Susan. Yeah, they do.

Um, and that at the end of the day, if I chose to, I could make anything that I wanted to make. So any questions, students? I wrote the golden palace just to organize my thoughts and get my arms around all of this and to come to peace with all of it. To come to peace, because I all of this stuff, my feelings about what my parents, what they don't want to, they can tell their story the way they want to tell it, but I just think that in so many ways they had a really tough upbringing. Yeah. And I wanted to make peace with what they came from, what I came from, how how they advance things so that I could go to college and study what genuinely interests me. Um, how they pulled themselves up from their bootstraps, how it's not perfect, but it's not perfect for anybody.

Right. It's not perfect for anybody. That's right. And ultimately, that whether you were raised in an environment of concerted cultivation or natural growth, it's your choice to exercise your creativity. And he may not, he may have worked in a factory, but my dad is also a poet. Yeah. And I may not have gone to Juilliard, but I took the path that I took, and I'm wildly creative. Yeah. Right? That's right. So by the end of the piece, spoilers, but please go buy it for $1.99 on iTunes. Um, I come to a different conclusion, and that is this. There is a golden palace. It's a Chinese restaurant located at 321 Nashua Street in Milford, New Hampshire. It's not over the horizon. It's not out of reach.

The Golden Palace is anywhere we make it. It's anywhere we make anything we want to make. And there is room for all of us. Illiterate boys, the fathers and factory workers and poets that they become awkward girls with weird faces and strange ideas. We all belong here. And that is how I came to write the golden ballad.

[38:20] Laura Camien: Reverse spark. I like that a lot, Susan. Because I think people don't always know, like, oh, I could be like reading an article or reading some statistics on, you know, someone's research, this and that. And and out of that spring a creative idea. So this is the point I was trying to make with this. Um this isn't just like I I mean I am delighted by the fun stories that Laura Cammy tells me when we do this podcast. Damn fucking lighted. But my point is if you hear something here or or you bump into something somewhere in the world, and it gives you a strong feeling. And sometimes that strong visceral feeling is like, this is making my blood boil. And sometimes that strong feeling is this is making me laugh, or this is making my eyeballs become cryballs.

Like that's right. Pay attention to those things because there is creative gold in there. That's right. And who knew something like a a piece of research that Annette LaRue did? You know what I mean? Like it's a piece of research, which sometimes you'd be like, oh, that's so dry. It's research. But it gave me a strong feeling. That's right. And strong enough to be like, I need to spend time with this to make something out of it and get my arms around it so that I can it for me, it's a lot about synthesizing and understanding myself and being able to be like, and now I put it away. Now I'm at peace. Like, and now I can be like, what's the next thing that I need to understand? So that's why I wanted to do this reverse spark to to just show you some sparks are everywhere.

Sparks. You can make stuff out of them. And please, just a dollar ninety-nine on iTunes. There you go. I'm just kidding. I I'm saying it for you because it's just uh I'm so proud of it. I really think it's good.

[40:15] Susan Blackwell: Pridefulness is a sense. Sorry. Need my headphones. Thanks to our sponsors. Hi. We don't have sponsor. We don't have sponsors. Do we? Or maybe we do by now. Ghostlake.com. Wild success and sponsorship has been sponsored. We can't even fit them all in. I'm sorry for all the sponsor brains. Well, who's your today? As of today, who's your dream sponsor? Oh, come on. And remember to me everyone. No, I don't. But remember, whoever it is, they also they send you either like a gift certificate or a box of free shit. Who is it? No, you know who I just came to mind. It's out of anger. Who? It's New York Health and Racket Club that keep charging my card every month, even though I've said I want to, I want out.

That's illegal. I know, but I now they're sponsoring our podcast, so I forgive them. Now it's all worked out. Now they're paying me back. Sparks come from many different places. See? Do you want to name your favorite sponsor? Oh, oh. Uh I'm gonna say, what do I want? I want Rolex for the goodie bags. Thank you so much for the goodie bags. I love it. I love my new watch. And gold with diamonds.

[41:31] Susan Blackwell: I love it. My spark is. I'm so excited. This is when I get excited. What you got for me? Um, today's spark is called Dead Poets Society.

[41:45] Laura Camien: Wait. I feel like this is a bait and switch.

[41:49] Susan Blackwell: It might be. I mean, it's it's not. It's the movie starring Robin Williams and Knox Overstreet.

[41:56] Laura Camien: Oh, he was so good.

[41:58] Susan Blackwell: I know. So here's a fun fact. I only recently discovered that both Susan and I have an affinity for the sentiment that Ralph Waldo Emerson often wrote about this idea of forging your own path.

[42:00] Laura Camien: Oh.

[42:14] Susan Blackwell: Word. You know, he said. Did he write that?

[42:16] Laura Camien: Well, he said, do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.

[42:22] Susan Blackwell: And he wrote the poem The Road Not Taken to Roger.

[42:24] Laura Camien: Wait a minute. No, no, no. That's Robert Frost.

[42:30] Susan Blackwell: You know what? That's Robert Frost, Susan.

[42:30] Laura Camien: Sorry.

[42:35] Susan Blackwell: Sorry. Sorry. Um, yes. I was like, I have that refrigerator magnet.

[42:39] Laura Camien: I was just gonna say your refrigerator magnet.

[42:41] Susan Blackwell: That's right. So I just recently discovered that you and I have to do that. Not to be a basic bitch, but I fucking love that poem.

[42:47] Laura Camien: I fucking love it too. And that's why I was like, we this concept of the road less taken or the road not taken, taking your own path.

[42:56] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. You were doing this because I wish what this was gonna, well, it should be what it wants to be. I was like, I researched my spark. I recently could you could you refashion your spark?

[43:09] Laura Camien: I recently heard somebody talking about that poem, and I was like, I don't understand that poem at all. Or I understood it to a certain level, but I was like, I've been The Road Not Taken?

[43:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[43:22] Laura Camien: Have you been like butchering its meaning?

[43:24] Susan Blackwell: No, I think I was like, if it has seven levels of meaning, I was like just chilling at level three. Like level two. And I was like, this goes deeper.

[43:33] Laura Camien: Well, the refrigerator magnet doesn't cover it all.

[43:36] Susan Blackwell: Once you go fuck yourself. I'm just kidding. I love that magnet.

[43:42] Laura Camien: Yeah. And that like got me thinking about this spark because um I remember distinctly proposing that that quote was like our senior year quote.

[43:42] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes. That's right.

[43:58] Laura Camien: Same in high school, 1989.

[43:59] Susan Blackwell: Singing high school?

[44:00] Laura Camien: What did you just say?

[44:00] Susan Blackwell: Siemen.

[44:02] Laura Camien: As he's so sorry, my condolences to you.

[44:06] Susan Blackwell: Semen as in a Viking.

[44:07] Laura Camien: What was I was gonna say? What was your mascot?

[44:10] Susan Blackwell: The Vikings.

[44:11] Laura Camien: Okay. Yeah, but we did sometimes play the Topeka High Trojans. You know what those headlines were like.

[44:18] Susan Blackwell: Sparks right there. Spark sparks.

[44:23] Laura Camien: So anyway. Um I think I was in high school when I first encountered like Emerson, Frost, Whitman, all of those. Like Lake, Palmer, all of those. Classic rock guys.

[44:37] Susan Blackwell: Love those guys.

[44:39] Laura Camien: Sorry, I just keep pulling you off your spark.

[44:40] Susan Blackwell: You know what? I expect it by now. Go ahead.

[44:43] Laura Camien: Like, why don't you heed you?

[44:46] Susan Blackwell: Um I think it was like not until very late. Like I grew up in Kansas. We just talked about that. I'm uh poetry was not something that was maybe valued as much as it should be. Um, but I did learn a little bit about it. And then in June of 89, right after I graduated, is when the movie Dead Poet Society came out.

[44:46] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[45:15] Susan Blackwell: And I was smitten with this just this grandiose idea of like schools with like 200 year traditions and this is is this shaping up to be a perfect compliment to my I don't know, because you know mine, it's not going it's not going at all.

[45:33] Laura Camien: It's not going somewhere surprising.

[45:35] Susan Blackwell: Somewhere else. Well, maybe not that surprising, but you know. We'll see is my answer to that. Um we'll see um. Um, but I was really, really smitten, and I was so like excited by that concept of having this passionate teacher and all of these traditions and this idea of like being spoken to by dead poets from the grave, you know, it was so I don't know. Anyway, like I said, we didn't have a lot of that kind of feeling in Kansas.

[46:08] Laura Camien: Um a couple months ago, one of America's most popular and best selling poets died.

[46:19] Susan Blackwell: Is this a Mary Oliver jam?

[46:20] Laura Camien: Her name was Mary Oliver.

[46:23] Susan Blackwell: Fuck you.

[46:24] Laura Camien: Fuck you, Susan.

[46:26] Susan Blackwell: No, you have my mic. I cannot believe you.

[46:31] Laura Camien: Are you sparking on Mary Oliver?

[46:31] Susan Blackwell: I am sparking on Mary Oliver.

[46:34] Laura Camien: I am in love with you.

[46:36] Susan Blackwell: I love you too. And I thought you might, I thought you might love this. I love her. You know, I she died in January of this year. She was 83. And when she passed, I learned more about her than I ever knew before. You know, I think that like there are popular little bits and things, probably much like the two roads diverging, you know, in a wood. A couple of lines here and there that like are so popular, but then there's so much more.

[47:07] Laura Camien: Can I just amazing out loud?

[47:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:11] Laura Camien: There is nowhere else on the planet I'd rather be than sitting right here right now.

[47:16] Susan Blackwell: Oh, you're gonna love. We're gonna have some fun here then. Bring it to me.

[47:21] Laura Camien: So a couple things I thought were interesting is like she grew up in a very dysfunctional family. She grew up in Ohio.

[47:28] Susan Blackwell: Did you know that?

[47:29] Laura Camien: I did know that because a lot of her right is did she grow up in in um southwestern Ohio?

[47:33] Susan Blackwell: That I don't know.

[47:34] Laura Camien: I'm pretty sure she did because a lot of her writing. Um I was like, this is my neck of the woods. The the town she refers to, the the things, the rivers she refers to, topography, animals, uh native indigenous people. Yeah, I was like, this is my neck of the woods.

[47:34] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[47:55] Laura Camien: Yeah and what's so fascinating about her, eventually she did move to Florida, but for so long, because of the things she wrote about, people were like, You should travel, you should see this, she should that. And she's like, I like my neck of the woods. I like my walks, my paths, my sights and stuff.

[48:13] Susan Blackwell: Was she natural growth or was she um concerted cultivation?

[48:16] Laura Camien: You know what? I don't know. But now I'm gonna ask that of every person.

[48:19] Susan Blackwell: So what are you?

[48:20] Laura Camien: You can kind of tell.

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: You can smell it.

[48:22] Laura Camien: Yeah, you can smell it.

[48:24] Susan Blackwell: Well, she had a really rough childhood. So I suspect and and I read that she was like neglected by her parents, she was sexually abused, I don't know by who, but so it wasn't I wouldn't say she was cultivated in any way. Yeah, um, but she said that because of this rough childhood, she made a world out of words, and that was her salvation. Two things she said she loved from a very early age were nature and the natural world, and the dead poets, she said were her pals when she was growing up.

[48:24] Laura Camien: Holy shit.

[49:02] Susan Blackwell: Okay, okay. So a lot of her poems she got her ideas from these long walks that you're talking about. Um, and I thought, like, I thought for sure we could both relate to like her upbringing in a lot of ways. I think it was very working class. Um, her dad was a teacher, my dad was a teacher. Her her mom worked as a secretary in the school. My stepmom was like the executive assistant, thank you very much at the school. Um, so anyway, I just thought, God, there's just so much more connection than I than I realized. Um, of course, I had been familiar with like the line from the summer day. Tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life, which has had a resurgence because of that movie.

[49:50] Laura Camien: Um, Reese Witherspoon was in it.

[49:53] Susan Blackwell: The wild sweet home Alabama.

[49:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, wild.

[49:56] Susan Blackwell: Oh no. Good guess. Good guess.

[49:58] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[49:58] Susan Blackwell: A little more recent, wild.

[50:00] Laura Camien: Um yeah, Cheryl Strait, right?

[50:03] Susan Blackwell: Straight, yeah, straight. Yep. One of those. She used that like in her book. Um Mary firmly believed that poetry mustn't be fancy. She lived for many decades with her longtime partner, Molly Malone Cook. She first published in her 20s. She has more than 20 volumes of work to her credit. She won a Pulitzer, a national book award, but she really wasn't motivated by these critical awards. Um, in fact, like her her, she was most known for like how accessible her work was to people.

[50:38] Laura Camien: Um it is it to me, it reminds me, it gives me the same feeling, though it's for an adult readership as opposed to four young people, but it gives me the same feeling that Laura Ingelswilder does. That sort of like just a cool breeze blowing over tall grass kind of feeling.

[50:59] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Yeah. That's a amazing way to describe it.

[51:03] Laura Camien: I'm an amazing wordsmith.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: You are.

[51:08] Laura Camien: But it really does. Like some of those, I it's crazy. I I mean, I guess I it's not uncommon. I think about her writing all the time and was thinking about it as recently as in the last 24 hours.

[51:08] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[51:24] Laura Camien: Yes, I was having a discussion with somebody and they're really, really going through it and like all different areas of their life.

[51:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh, there's so much that they can gain from her.

[51:32] Laura Camien: And I was like, she has that piece of poetry, which I don't have at my fingertips and I don't have memorized, but it's about it's about mental illness and like the like the carefully pulling out the the stitches of embroidery, like just like the slow work of getting well and healing. And I was like, this is gonna be some Mary Oliver slow work for you. So I've just been thinking about her. I think about I think about her writing all the time.

[52:04] Susan Blackwell: And it is accessible, like you're saying. Amazing.

[52:06] Laura Camien: Yeah. And so accessible that some critics kind of put it down for that.

[52:11] Susan Blackwell: Not at first, not at first, but um, here's a few examples of just the kind of accessibility. Um it seems simple, but it's so deep, right? So she wrote, What I want in my life is to be willing to be dazzled, to cast aside the weight of facts and maybe even to float a little above this difficult world. She wrote, It is a serious thing just to be alive on this fresh morning in this broken world.

[52:40] Laura Camien: And people were like, Did she write that yesterday?

[52:43] Susan Blackwell: That's crazy.

[52:43] Laura Camien: Right?

[52:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That's it's what's incredible. And then of course, she's quite famous for this: instructions for living a life. Pay attention, be astonished, tell about it. So those are like just some simple ones. Um, there's a writer named Ruth Franklin that said the way she writes these poems, it feels like prayers. She channels the voice of somebody who it seems might possibly have access to God. And I think that like that's why so much of it is so popular.

[53:18] Laura Camien: The brevity of some of her poems is what like endeared her work to a broader public. Clerics quoted her work in sermons, poetry therapists used her work, composers set it to music.

[53:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I just had a spark. Bart Freundlich, if you're listening to me, I'm sure you're not, but if you are, you need to write a screenplay about Mary Oliver and Julianne Moore.

[53:47] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[53:48] Susan Blackwell: You need to play Mary Oliver.

[53:50] Laura Camien: Oh please do that.

[53:51] Susan Blackwell: Boom. We're done for the day. No, I'm serious. She that would be great casting.

[53:56] Laura Camien: That would be amazing.

[53:58] Susan Blackwell: You just get some of those thick 70s glasses.

[54:01] Laura Camien: Oh my god. Julie, you're gonna be great in the movie. Sorry, Daddy. That's gonna be phenomenal.

[54:05] Susan Blackwell: That's a good spark. Um, but basically, like Mary enjoyed a following that it's safe to say most poets did not enjoy, at least not in their lifetime. Um, and with the popularity, and she actually sold books.

[54:21] Laura Camien: Um, and as time went on, critics, of course, got yeah, critical.

[54:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, they got more critical.

[54:29] Laura Camien: So I I really think wait, meaning that they enjoyed her work more.

[54:34] Susan Blackwell: They picked it apart more.

[54:35] Laura Camien: It was like this is so simplistic.

[54:38] Susan Blackwell: You do it, you try.

[54:39] Laura Camien: You do it, right?

[54:43] Susan Blackwell: And you and I have talked about this before. Like, what is it about you know, once your work speaks to the masses, the need for critics to like pull back their support of it and like, well, it's actually not that good. It's not that I don't know, meaningful. And I I think that's discouraging as an artist.

[55:04] Laura Camien: And we do it to each other sometimes.

[55:06] Susan Blackwell: We sure do.

[55:07] Laura Camien: Well, not you and I.

[55:08] Susan Blackwell: Not you and I. But like the big we, yes, right. Let's stop doing that. Let's stop doing that. Uh so a couple things, you know, we've talked before about like our sparks.

[55:20] Laura Camien: We we're trying not, folks, just so you know, we're trying not to just dedicate an entire spark to a human being who's lived for 83 years on this life because it's too much.

[55:31] Susan Blackwell: It's a seven-hour podcast.

[55:32] Laura Camien: It's a seven-hour podcast, which you know, maybe one day, a special episode.

[55:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh god.

[55:37] Laura Camien: Um, Marathon for charity.

[55:40] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I just pulled out a few things, you know.

[55:42] Laura Camien: Great.

[55:43] Laura Camien: Um, because Mary often wrote about nature, she was inevitably compared to her dead poet pals, Whitman, Robert Frost, and others.

[55:54] Susan Blackwell: She was, you know, now she's part of her own Dead Poet Society.

[55:58] Laura Camien: Wow.

[55:59] Susan Blackwell: And she's um, she's part of that.

[56:02] Laura Camien: Um, here's one of her many, many, many, many poems about nature, "Watering the Stones."

[56:08] Susan Blackwell: Every summer I gather a few stones from the beach and keep them in a glass bowl. Now and again, I cover them with water and they drink. There's no question about this. I put tinfoil over the bowl tightly, yet the water disappears. This doesn't mean we ever have a conversation or that they have the kind of feelings we do, yet it might mean something. Whatever the stones are, they don't lie in the water and do nothing. Some of my friends refuse to believe it, even though they've seen it. But a few others, I've seen them walking down the beach holding a few stones, and they look at them rather more closely now. Once in a while, I swear I've even heard one or two of them saying hello, which I don't think harms anyone or anything, does it?

[56:51] Laura Camien: Susan, when I go home to Florida, I talk to the trees.

[56:56] Susan Blackwell: You do.

[56:57] Laura Camien: Do you talk to your little succulent plants?

[57:00] Susan Blackwell: Do you talk to you?

[57:03] Laura Camien: I do a little bit.

[57:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I guess I kind of do.

[57:07] Laura Camien: I just wonder. Sometimes I get up and I go outside and I'm just like, hi, everybody.

[57:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[57:12] Laura Camien: You're blooming. You look beautiful. Keep going. It's an interesting little phenomenon. I have more plants now than I've ever had in my entire life.

[57:20] Susan Blackwell: Too many to talk to.

[57:21] Laura Camien: Oh boy. And um, and I I do when I touch them and like water them and admire them and look at their growth. I get a feeling.

[57:40] Susan Blackwell: It's that what should we call that feeling? It's like it's the Laura Ingalls Wilder feeling. It's the Mary Oliver feeling. It's that that feeling of just like looking into nature's face and us smiling at each other. You know what I mean?

[57:55] Laura Camien: And I was also saying to Nathan the other day that the thing that I love about plants as opposed to other, I don't know how you characterize those things, hobbies. You know, like you give it some water from time to time, you might fertilize it. You keep it near a window so it can have sun, and you go away, and when you come back, it's changed. And I was like, what else does that? What else does that mean? What else does that? It's growing on its own. It's it is having a whole life.

[58:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[58:24] Laura Camien: It's having a whole life.

[58:26] Susan Blackwell: Exactly that. It delights me. Susan, I'd be delighted if you would read this poem I chose for you.

[58:31] Laura Camien: Oh my god, I've got to read without just a cold read.

[58:35] Susan Blackwell: It's a cold read. You can do it.

[58:37] Laura Camien: I just didn't want my voice the whole time.

[58:39] Susan Blackwell: You got this.

[58:40] Laura Camien: Okay. Oh, you you trying to make me cry.

[58:44] Susan Blackwell: No, you won't.

[58:46] Laura Camien: This is called "I Have Decided." This is a cold read. I don't know how it ends. I just saw the I just saw the first line. I have decided to find myself a home in the mountains, somewhere high up where one learns to live peacefully in the cold and the silence. It's said that in such a place, certain revelations may be discovered, that what the spirit reaches for may be eventually felt, if not exactly understood. Slowly, no doubt. I am not talking about a vacation. Of course, at the same time, I mean to stay exactly where I am.

[59:23] Susan Blackwell: Are you following me?

[59:25] Laura Camien: You hippie, goddamn dirty hippie.

[59:29] Susan Blackwell: I know.

[59:29] Laura Camien: That's beautiful.

[59:30] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[59:31] Laura Camien: And and I feel that way. I wondered. I wondered if you felt that way about moving to the mountainside.

[59:37] Susan Blackwell: I feel I've never seen that poem before. But I guess she's got 20 slim, beautiful little volumes.

[59:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[59:46] Susan Blackwell: But I'm kind of fascinated with this nature thing because if we're if we're totally honest here, which I think we are, it's our tight little group of listeners.

[59:55] Laura Camien: Tight little bubbles.

[59:58] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I, you know, you and I both lived in New York for a very long time.

[1:00:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:00:05] Susan Blackwell: And if I'm honest with myself, I think I devalued for quite some time the place that nature could hold in me as a human being, but also as an artist and you know, work inspired by nature. I think I I don't know. I think I sort of put it out of my mind, put it out of my um Yeah. Because it wasn't a part of my daily life. I think I tried to diminish its importance. And now in Florida, I have had people come to visit in Florida, and they're New Yorkers. And I'll be like, oh my god, we have this eagle. This eagle lives in this pine tree next door. Um, and I'll talk about that. I'll talk about like, oh my god, one day these vultures ripped a squirrel apart, like right here. You can like even find a little skeleton bone. Um, and I would be talking about the birds, the animals, the trees.

[1:01:02] Laura Camien: What do they make of it?

[1:01:02] Susan Blackwell: What are the New Yorkers make of it? A friend that was literally like, if you don't shut the fuck up, I hear about another fucking bird. Like they were just like, I see pigeons. That's it. I don't care about the birds. But and one day, Susan, I have to tell you, this was like so perfectly on cue. Literally one day, a friend was visiting and she'd had enough. I could tell she'd had enough, and she was like, okay. No more squirrel talk. Okay, we're good. Just as she's saying that, three horses come barreling down the street.

[1:01:34] Susan Blackwell: They weren't wild horses. That would make a better story.

[1:01:38] Laura Camien: No, they were right, they had gotten out of someone's, you know, stable and they were running home. But it had like this, they're all galloping like in unison by. And I was like, so you see, this is the kind of stuff we're happy here. She was like, I can't believe that just on cue.

[1:01:59] Susan Blackwell: On cue.

[1:02:00] Laura Camien: But I just wondered if you feel that way now, what now that there's more nature in your life?

[1:02:05] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I lived in the city for decades, and I love, love, love, love nature, but I am quiet and peace and space. But I just like took that part of me that loved that and just kind of like um compartmentalized it for a while.

[1:02:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:02:27] Susan Blackwell: And then I moved to Inwood and had this apartment that had this like ridiculous balcony.

[1:02:34] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:02:35] Susan Blackwell: And I started growing plants on the balcony. And I had like 70, I had like crops. Like I was growing corn, kale, tomato, squash. Like I was running a farmer's market off of that balcony. And I was like, I need to do this on the country. Like I was like, I need to, I it's time. I'm yeah, I'm old enough now. I want to have that piece. You know what I I wonder sometimes, like, is this because of this is happening at a certain age, I'm like, is this because I'm old now? I'm getting old, that I'm like suddenly appreciating nature, or is it just the circumstances? But we have these oak trees in our yard, and sometimes they like fill me with tears. And I think the act of planting a tree is the most selfless act. These trees, the person who planted them didn't never got to see them in their glory. They're a hundred years old. So you're just like, you did that for the next group of people to enjoy because you had to know.

[1:03:41] Laura Camien: That's a nice metaphor.

[1:03:43] Susan Blackwell: Put that in your poem, Mary Oliver.

[1:03:45] Laura Camien: Planet Tree.

[1:03:46] Susan Blackwell: Okay, Planet Tree. I love that. All right. So I also wanted to bring this topic up because I was surprised. And I I kind of want to look up like when did she write this? You and I have talked numerous times about our goals for more creation, less consumption.

[1:04:03] Laura Camien: Create more, consume less, baby.

[1:04:04] Susan Blackwell: Mary wrote this impossible to believe we need so much as the world wants us to buy. I have more clothes, lamps, dishes, paper clips than I could possibly use before I die. Oh, I would like to live in an empty grass, no planks, no plastic, no fiberglass. And I suppose sometime I will. Old and cold, I will lie apart from all this buying and selling with only the beautiful earth in my heart.

[1:04:30] Laura Camien: Fuck.

[1:04:32] Susan Blackwell: So and that is where Mary is now.

[1:04:34] Laura Camien: We're gonna, yeah, I was gonna say she stopped consuming.

[1:04:38] Susan Blackwell: She is now more impressed now. She's a member of a very elite club, poets who will continue to speak to us for generations from the grave.

[1:04:46] Laura Camien: I love it.

[1:04:48] Susan Blackwell: Before we wrap this, I just want to say one more thing. I don't I want to talk about Mary Oliver forever. She also wrote to pay attention. This is our endless and proper work. And in her poem "When Death Comes," she wrote, When it's over, I want to say all my life, I was a bride married to amazement. And I feel a little bit like that's what that's the work we're trying to do here on the Sparks File. Train ourselves to paying attention. Little messages from the grave, little messages from statistics and research. Little messages like we were watching some, let's say, let's be honest, fair to Midland television last night.

[1:05:34] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:05:35] Susan Blackwell: And something flashed across the screen, and I was like, there's a spark, but I'm not gonna say it out loud because I'm gonna surprise you with it later. And I was like, we have training our brains. I love it so much to we're on the hunt, we're on the lookout. And it kind of it has made the world, just in the short time we've been doing this, it's it's fun, it's vivid. It's so fun all day. And it's like you have a little secret, and you're like, wow, that that made me feel a little tangly. That made some, you know, that made some sparks fly in my brain. But whatever your whatever your creative outlet is, whatever your self-expression is, I think it's it's incumbent upon the maker to have their their it it to not be passive, to like sort of have your eyes and your ears and your heart open.

[1:06:25] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:06:25] Susan Blackwell: And to be like letting those, it's like krill, just like letting krill like move through the whale. Krill, just like like you have to, you've got you gotta that nutritious absorption krill. How's that for a metaphor, Mary Oliver?

[1:06:45] Laura Camien: I feel like a regular Mary Oliver.

[1:06:49] Susan Blackwell: In the words of Mary Oliver, that's the big question. The one the world throws at you every morning. Here you are alive. Would you like to make a comment?

[1:07:02] Laura Camien: Thank you, Mary.

[1:07:04] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Mary. Here we are alive. Let's make some comments. Let's make some stuff.

[1:07:10] Laura Camien: Fucking hell.

[1:07:11] Susan Blackwell: You Mary Olivered me.

[1:07:14] Laura Camien: I did.

[1:07:14] Susan Blackwell: What a great surprise. It's so funny because before we started, you were like, I don't know if this is Mary Oliver.

[1:07:21] Laura Camien: You can expect that every week.

[1:07:22] Susan Blackwell: That is the that's my little like the highest quality.

[1:07:26] Laura Camien: P.S. Those things you shared, so many of them I have not heard.

[1:07:30] Susan Blackwell: There's so much.

[1:07:31] Laura Camien: And there's so much joke. We could do 20 hours on her.

[1:07:35] Susan Blackwell: I I it makes me maybe maybe we could post it on social media, like some of our favorites.

[1:07:40] Laura Camien: Oh.

[1:07:40] Susan Blackwell: And if you all are listening and you have favorites, please let us know. But man, is she she's still speaking to us?

[1:07:47] Laura Camien: She is a spectacular creative being.

[1:07:51] Susan Blackwell: Fuck me. I hope that all of this put another bunch of sparks in your spark file. I know it did for me, Lori Cambian. Listen, listen to me when I say this. If there's a spark you would like us to explore, if you've got a spark that you'd like to share, will you please email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com and be sure to subscribe to this shenanigan on whatever, wherever you get your podcast. As the children say, subscribe, rate, and review.

[1:08:17] Laura Camien: Listen up. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, it's your turn to take this little spark and fan it into a beautiful little flame. You gotta write it, you gotta recite it, you gotta knit it, you gotta go on and get it, you gotta take it. And you gotta make it.

[1:08:34] Susan Blackwell: We'll see you on the next episode of the Sparks File.

[1:08:39] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:08:48] Susan Blackwell: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:08:53] Laura Camien: I pump it in the spark files.

[1:08:58] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark fire.

[1:08:58] Laura Camien: Spark fire.

[1:09:03] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark fire.