This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, your one stop underground zine for creative inspiration.

[0:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:44] Laura Camien: If you're an OG listener, welcome back.

[0:46] Susan Blackwell: Sparkler, if you're joining us for the first time, welcome.

[0:49] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:53] Susan Blackwell: Where do I get one?

[0:54] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[0:55] Susan Blackwell: These are good questions.

[0:57] Laura Camien: You know we've got answers.

[0:59] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:05] Laura Camien: Here's the deal.

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:08] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you already know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:17] Susan Blackwell: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this very podcast.

[1:31] Laura Camien: Or a reconstruction of broken pieces into something more beautiful than before.

[1:37] Susan Blackwell: Ah I have an idea what that is, and I'm so excited.

[1:42] Laura Camien: Or an act of resilience and defiance through creativity and self expression.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:52] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: And if you're not careful, you might just choose to respond differently from here on out.

[2:00] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the Sparks file.

[2:08] Susan Blackwell: Cammy and I'm so happy to hear your voice.

[2:10] Laura Camien: And I'm so happy that I think this recording is working properly.

[2:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[2:17] Laura Camien: That's we weren't so sure one.

[2:19] Susan Blackwell: It was a little touch and go for a second, but I think we're on track.

[2:22] Laura Camien: I think we are.

[2:23] Susan Blackwell: It sounds like it.

[2:25] Laura Camien: You sound great.

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Camion.

[2:28] Laura Camien: You sound great too.

[2:29] Susan Blackwell: And right on time.

[2:30] Laura Camien: Right on time.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: Cammy, how are you?

[2:33] Laura Camien: I'm doing good. You know, I'm hanging in.

[2:35] Susan Blackwell: How about you?

[2:37] Laura Camien: I'm pretty good.

[2:39] Susan Blackwell: It's been pretty busy.

[2:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: But I feel like all the stuff that we're doing and making is so it's a little bit drinking from the fire hose of glory.

[2:50] Laura Camien: But it's a I feel um fortunate.

[2:54] Susan Blackwell: I'm just a little tired.

[2:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:58] Susan Blackwell: I was saying that to my therapist this week.

[3:00] Laura Camien: I'm like, there are times when I'm so tired, I just want to burst into tears because I'm exhausted.

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: And I do.

[3:08] Laura Camien: I mean, let's be honest, I don't stop myself from doing that, but we call that the broadcast news.

[3:13] Susan Blackwell: I do.

[3:14] Laura Camien: I have my daily broadcast news moment where I burst into tears.

[3:18] Susan Blackwell: But listen, if you don't know that reference, do yourself a salad and go watch broadcast news.

[3:25] Laura Camien: I love that movie.

[3:26] Susan Blackwell: It's if you like movies about white people, that is a good one.

[3:32] Laura Camien: Is it all white people though?

[3:34] Susan Blackwell: I think um I think that movie who named somebody who is a person of color in that movie.

[3:39] Laura Camien: I love that movie.

[3:41] Susan Blackwell: No, I love that movie.

[3:42] Laura Camien: I do too.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: But let's bring it back to Cammy, who has a at first it like it, it can sort of be like you walk in, you open a door to a room and Cammy's sitting there and just hot, hot tears streaming down your face.

[3:55] Laura Camien: And at first it can be like, Oh no, what did you just get bad news?

[3:59] Susan Blackwell: And then it's like, no, this is just how my little pressure valve releases.

[4:04] Laura Camien: I'm just letting it out.

[4:05] Susan Blackwell: I'm just letting it out.

[4:06] Laura Camien: That's right.

[4:07] Susan Blackwell: It's like an instant pot.

[4:08] Laura Camien: If any of you have been cooking with an Instapot lately, it's sort of like that moment when you natural release or the full on, just like you just kick that little dial to the side, and a little pressure gets steamed off of there.

[4:22] Susan Blackwell: It's all good.

[4:23] Laura Camien: It is like a good thing, but it's so interesting.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: No one typically equates tears with a good thing, but I'll be like, No, no, no.

[4:31] Laura Camien: I'm just letting it just letting it all flow.

[4:33] Susan Blackwell: I'm just letting it out of my face.

[4:35] Laura Camien: Oh yeah.

[4:36] Susan Blackwell: I think it's great.

[4:37] Laura Camien: And it's also so great.

[4:38] Susan Blackwell: I this is where I love collaborative shorthand, where I can just be like, Oh my god, are you okay?

[4:45] Laura Camien: And you can just be like, broadcast news.

[4:46] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, got it.

[4:48] Laura Camien: That's it.

[4:49] Susan Blackwell: Broadcast.

[4:49] Laura Camien: That's it.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: Because in the movie, Holly Hunter's character, she actually schedules it every day.

[4:54] Laura Camien: Like, she doesn't go to she sits on the edge of her bed with a box of Kleenex and she's like, Okay.

[5:00] Susan Blackwell: And she cries, and then she's like, I'm good.

[5:02] Laura Camien: And she goes on about her business.

[5:04] Susan Blackwell: So yeah.

[5:05] Laura Camien: Does she do a thing where she takes she takes the phone off the hook?

[5:08] Susan Blackwell: Like she's like, or she's unplugs it.

[5:11] Laura Camien: So that it's she's not gonna be disrupted, and she can just get it up and out, and then like like pat her tears dry and then get to business.

[5:19] Susan Blackwell: It's literally like checking off the to-do list.

[5:21] Laura Camien: Like, I this is something I need to do.

[5:23] Susan Blackwell: I we know we I will be doing it sometime today.

[5:26] Laura Camien: Put that in your bullet journal.

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, did I have my cry?

[5:29] Laura Camien: Some people are like I have to sweat through one shirt a day, or I have to make sure that I drink this many ounces of water.

[5:38] Susan Blackwell: But you can add that.

[5:38] Laura Camien: Make sure you have your daily broadcast news cry.

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: Get it all out.

[5:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[5:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:43] Laura Camien: So all that's been happening for sure.

[5:45] Susan Blackwell: Um, feeling tired and enough to cry.

[5:48] Laura Camien: But you know, I said to my therapist, uh, in all honesty, like if I wasn't working really hard, I would be alone with these thoughts and probably obsessing, you know, and and going crazy in a different way.

[6:03] Susan Blackwell: I just feel like someone was passing this thing around on Facebook um recently that was like, you know, we're not, we're not in the same boat, we're in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat.

[6:17] Laura Camien: And this whole long thing about, you know, uh as we've talked about before, like people are experiencing different challenges, but everyone is challenged, yeah, but they're just not exactly the same.

[6:31] Susan Blackwell: Um, metaphor, the captain's log.

[6:34] Laura Camien: That's really cool.

[6:36] Susan Blackwell: I discovered this about three days after we did that spark.

[6:40] Laura Camien: Like I was like, redo, I want to redo because I need to incorporate.

[6:44] Susan Blackwell: You're getting it now.

[6:45] Laura Camien: This is your let me try that again.

[6:46] Susan Blackwell: You get it now.

[6:47] Laura Camien: I'm just adding it.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: There's more to cover.

[6:50] Laura Camien: I love that.

[6:51] Susan Blackwell: This is why I love creatives, I love makers and I love writers.

[6:56] Laura Camien: The ability to take a situation and then just like distill it into its essence like that.

[7:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:04] Laura Camien: Is gorgeous to me.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[7:06] Laura Camien: Me too.

[7:07] Susan Blackwell: And although I am not a real fan of Twitter, mostly because it makes my brain hurt, like just scrolling through Twitter, the number of directions my brain goes in.

[7:19] Laura Camien: It's it's challenging for me.

[7:21] Susan Blackwell: But when I read well-written tweets that encapsulate an entire uh idea so succinctly and sometimes profoundly in this number of characters that I'm like, wow, Twitter's good for that, and people are smart.

[7:43] Laura Camien: Yes.

[7:44] Susan Blackwell: And and I also saw this can happen in political cartoons and also just like pieces of art, pieces of graffiti, where people will encapsulate a whole idea in an image, which reminds me of Bonnie Siegler's work.

[8:00] Laura Camien: Yep.

[8:00] Susan Blackwell: That and the work that she collects and sort of like curates where it all distills it down into a single image.

[8:09] Laura Camien: It is magic to me.

[8:10] Susan Blackwell: I yeah, I love that.

[8:12] Laura Camien: So so I feel like such a windbag, and there I'm just like so moved by people who can do it efficiently.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: Because I just have to take a little heart away.

[8:24] Laura Camien: But you get there, you get there.

[8:26] Susan Blackwell: Do I can anyway?

[8:30] Laura Camien: I'm so happy to be having this conversation with you.

[8:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and um, it is a highlight of my life.

[8:37] Laura Camien: So good meeting, good episode.

[8:41] Susan Blackwell: Peace out, everybody.

[8:42] Laura Camien: Is there anything else to say?

[8:44] Susan Blackwell: Just that I love you and I love doing this.

[8:46] Laura Camien: So I'm thankful for everyone listening right now.

[8:49] Susan Blackwell: Cheese ball, but it's I'd like to second that emotion.

[8:52] Laura Camien: Love Laura Cammy.

[8:53] Susan Blackwell: Love doing this.

[8:54] Laura Camien: Love everybody who's listening.

[8:56] Susan Blackwell: And um, I think we I think you're going first.

[9:00] Laura Camien: I am.

[9:01] Laura Camien: I have dipped my fingers into my spark file and grabbed a good one this week.

[9:05] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I will start by taking a little bit of a little bit more.

[9:07] Laura Camien: When you said dip your fingers into your spark file, I'm sorry.

[9:10] Laura Camien: I just having been raised Catholic and having attended so many masses in my life.

[9:15] Susan Blackwell: That reminds me of when you walk into church.

[9:17] Laura Camien: I don't know if you have this experience, and you dip your fingers into the holy water and you bless yourself.

[9:23] Susan Blackwell: Just make sure you're not a vampire before you enter the church.

[9:27] Laura Camien: That is what that reminded me of when you said that.

[9:29] Susan Blackwell: I dip my fingers into my spark file, I consecrate myself, and here we go.

[9:34] Laura Camien: It really to me, that little story makes me feel like my spark file is this sacred um and blessed thing.

[9:41] Susan Blackwell: And I I thank you for that.

[9:42] Laura Camien: I haven't and so it is.

[9:47] Susan Blackwell: So I will start today by telling you or reminding you, because I think you probably know this, but one of my favorite Mary Oliver quotes is this.

[9:57] Laura Camien: It is a serious thing just to be alive on this fresh morning in this broken world.

[10:03] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I love that.

[10:04] Laura Camien: That gave me a feeling when you said that.

[10:06] Susan Blackwell: I love it so much.

[10:08] Laura Camien: And there have been times in my life when the world felt broken during times of loss or change or you know, heartbreaks to 9-11 to my mom dying.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: But certainly it is unlike what we've experienced, like this period of time where the world feels as broken as it feels now.

[10:33] Laura Camien: We're all in a storm.

[10:35] Susan Blackwell: We're we may be in different boats, but everybody's in the storm.

[10:39] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[10:40] Susan Blackwell: And it feels like um, you know, there's an intensity to this brokenness and an unknowing for like how long this might go on.

[10:47] Laura Camien: But I think that's why I was reminded of Kintsugi recently.

[10:53] Susan Blackwell: Are you familiar with Kintsugi Suze?

[10:55] Laura Camien: I I'm lightly familiar with it.

[10:58] Susan Blackwell: And I learned about it from one of my awesome educators that I work with at the Metropolitan Opera.

[11:06] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[11:06] Susan Blackwell: So I'm like, fill you in a little bit.

[11:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:09] Susan Blackwell: Fill me in a lot of it.

[11:10] Laura Camien: Okay, a lot of it.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: So Kintsugi is an ancient Japanese art form.

[11:16] Laura Camien: It's actually a practice of mending and repairing something in a way that honors and highlights the breakage rather than treating it as something that needs to be disguised.

[11:28] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I'm gonna cry during this spark.

[11:31] Laura Camien: I might also oh my God.

[11:33] Susan Blackwell: That's a beautiful, beautiful idea.

[11:36] Laura Camien: It is.

[11:37] Susan Blackwell: I I just like conceptually, I I just wrap my arms around this and embrace it wholeheartedly.

[11:45] Laura Camien: Most likely you've you've probably seen this um art form demonstrated in pottery, like teacups or glass.

[11:55] Susan Blackwell: Um, they use like a precious metal, maybe liquid gold or silver.

[12:00] Laura Camien: Sometimes it's a lacquer that has been dusted with powdered gold.

[12:04] Susan Blackwell: And in the case of like a broken bowl, for example, they fill the cracks and put the pieces back together with the liquid gold holding it together like glue.

[12:16] Laura Camien: But now the scar or the break is distinct and it's visible, it's highlighted.

[12:23] Susan Blackwell: It's like a vein of gold that runs through the bowl.

[12:27] Laura Camien: Yes, it's a beautiful streak of gold.

[12:30] Susan Blackwell: And every single repaired piece of pottery is unique and original because they've not broken in the same exact way and they've not been repaired in the same exact way.

[12:43] Laura Camien: So Kintsugi is part of the Zen ideals of wabi sabi, which embrace and cherish things that are simple, unpretentious, and aged, in particular, like rustic or weathered in quality.

[12:59] Susan Blackwell: And I think about, I was saying to Wes, I'm like, you know, you really honestly can't go to like an estate sale or an antique store with me without like I have to touch everything.

[13:09] Laura Camien: I have to be like, I wonder what this lived through.

[13:12] Susan Blackwell: I wonder who used this hairbrush.

[13:14] Laura Camien: Oh, what stories does this tool have to tell?

[13:18] Susan Blackwell: And he's like, uh-huh.

[13:19] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[13:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:20] Laura Camien: That was exactly what they were gonna want to wash your hands.

[13:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, now it's different, right?

[13:26] Laura Camien: But I always, and I'm like that way with places as well.

[13:30] Susan Blackwell: But I'm like, who has stood right here?

[13:33] Laura Camien: Like the Tower of London.

[13:35] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, who stood right here?

[13:38] Laura Camien: Who knew that those those boys were bringing up, you know, were being brought up into the tower?

[13:43] Susan Blackwell: Who knows what happened to them? What secrets were being told in this event? Like I just love it so much. So I love that there actually is a container for this type of passion, this belief system that old and unpretentious and aged things are beautiful and valuable. I think that I have accidentally smashed the ideas of wabi-sabi and could you say the other word?

[14:14] Laura Camien: Oh, kintsugi?

[14:15] Susan Blackwell: Kintsugi together. I've smashed them together. Yeah. And um I didn't realize that wabi-sabi, I always thought took that to mean imperfect, but what you're saying it means simple things, aged things, and pretentious and pretentious things.

[14:33] Laura Camien: In particular, rustic or weathered, yeah.

[14:36] Susan Blackwell: I feel like this is a good education for me. Well done, kids. But I do think they're, you know, it it all, you know, it can blend together because they're related ideas and kintsugi is part of those ideals. So you're not wrong in that. Um there's an old fable that I read about on thebookoflife.com, but it's a concept I think people have come across before. But this old fable is that one of the great proponents of wabi-sabi was a philosopher named Rikyu, and he lived in Japan in the 1500s.

[15:11] Laura Camien: And the story goes on a journey through the country, he was invited to dinner by a host who thought that he could be impressed by this elaborate and expensive antique jar that he bought from China.

[15:24] Susan Blackwell: But throughout the visit, Rikyu didn't pay the jar any attention at all. And instead, he was preoccupied by admiring a branch swaying in the breeze. After he left, the host was so upset, he smashed the jar to pieces and went to bed in a little hissy fit. The other guests gathered the fragments of the jar and reassembled it using kintsugi. Months later, when Rikyu visited again, he turned to the repaired jar with a knowing smile and declared, now it is magnificent.

[16:02] Laura Camien: Oh.

[16:03] Susan Blackwell: So that story's been origin story. Yes, it's been handed down throughout centuries to illustrate our preoccupation with beautiful, perfect things. And of course, is trying to teach the lesson that the repaired item is so much more interesting and lovely. And it also has a story to tell now, too. Um so the Japanese word kintsugi comes from kin, which means golden, and suki, which means repair.

[16:35] Laura Camien: Golden repair.

[16:38] Susan Blackwell: And yeah, now, like whenever I catch myself in tears, like, and I'm usually aware, like, okay, I'm going through something. Um, but now I'm gonna think of myself as though like I'm in golden repair. Like I used to think of myself as a work in progress, but now I'm gonna think I'm in golden repair.

[16:58] Laura Camien: I love that.

[17:01] Susan Blackwell: So one of the principles at play in kintsugi is I think the idea of resilience. And I really like the idea that experiences the hardships and the healings that things or people have gone through are visible. I mean, although many times with people, they're invisible. But these experiences make us stronger. Certainly they make us unique and precious. Um, but it's very much about making them visible and not hiding them.

[17:37] Laura Camien: Did you have we talked about this? Like, did you have a phase when you wanted to hide anything that was like different about you?

[17:43] Susan Blackwell: Uh, sure. Just curious. I mean, I you know, I think I've talked about it on the podcast before. That um, like I remember a time I was so obsessed with not being weird, and I wanted to hide any differences.

[18:00] Laura Camien: Yep.

[18:01] Susan Blackwell: So desperately. Like in science class, we were testing for our blood type, and I have a very visceral memory of being like, oh God, please don't let me have one of those weird blood types that hardly anyone else has blood type.

[18:14] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:15] Susan Blackwell: And I know for a fact, I was not worried about it because medically I'd be, you know, it would be hard to get an A or a B blood type or a transfusion or something. But I was actually worried that if we had to say our blood types out loud, it might like just make me show everyone like that I'm weird and different.

[18:38] Laura Camien: Yes, and I have some difference inside of me.

[18:41] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah, that's a really visceral memory, but really the difference I felt from other people growing up was my sensitivity. And I was just told my whole life, like, you're too sensitive, what's wrong with you? Because I think as a kid I was super perceptive and I felt things maybe that weren't said, but I knew that they were true.

[19:04] Laura Camien: And then they just come out of your uh eyeballs.

[19:04] Susan Blackwell: And they came out of my eyeballs, yeah. But I learned really, really quickly. If I pointed those things out or showed them to others or tried to describe them, I would be shut down and told, you know, to hide that instead, like that weird thing about you, try to fix that, try to make that better.

[19:25] Laura Camien: Um many, many, many years later, thanks to key people in my life, like an acting teacher who told me that like sensitivity was my superpower, and having a partner who's not afraid of my tears or my emotions.

[19:39] Susan Blackwell: I, you know, eventually started to let it all show. And what a frickin' relief.

[19:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:46] Susan Blackwell: That I didn't have to keep it hidden anymore.

[19:50] Laura Camien: That's right.

[19:50] Susan Blackwell: And I think that accepting those things within you that you feel scared to let show is one of the human versions of kintsugi. Like letting your flaws show or your fla things that you perceive to be flaws, like letting them sparkle.

[20:08] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[20:09] Susan Blackwell: Like the gold veins in kintsugi. And to just like extrapolate from that, one of the things that we say so much when we teach people is whatever your hell and back is, that is your gift. Meaning, whatever, like if you have been through a trauma and then you process the trauma or the flaming curveball or whatever it is, then that could be that could work its way into the world.

[20:35] Laura Camien: It's your life of work.

[20:36] Susan Blackwell: It's your gold. And this is exactly what you're saying that I'm now repeating back to you.

[20:42] Laura Camien: It's all no, I'm loving it. It's so beautiful.

[20:44] Susan Blackwell: There's so many connections. Like it for me, like the writing this spark out was really simple because I'm like, it's all everything. It's everything that we talk about. Um Brene Brown said, I think we lose sight of the beauty.

[20:59] Laura Camien: The most beautiful things I look back on in my life are coming out from underneath things I didn't know I could get out from underneath.

[21:07] Susan Blackwell: You know, the moments I look back on in my life, I think those were the moments that made me the moments of struggle. And I'm gonna go a little deeper here, but in the spirit of surfacing vulnerabilities, I will admit that early in my life, I think I've mentioned this also. I'm a child of a narcissist, and I drew, I grew up trying to make everything perfect and do everything right.

[21:30] Laura Camien: Because as a child of a narcissist, you believe that if you do everything right, no one will get upset, no one will be mad at you, your parents will be happy, life will be fine.

[21:43] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I tried really, really hard to do everything right. And I was really good at a lot of things. But ironically, probably the thing that kept me from being even better at certain things was my worry about getting everything right.

[22:01] Laura Camien: Yes.

[22:02] Susan Blackwell: What an enormous amount of capacity that must have taken.

[22:05] Laura Camien: I'm sure I don't know.

[22:06] Susan Blackwell: Like when I hear that, I'm like, how were you not sleeping 12 hours a night? Like, how were you not just exhausted by that?

[22:12] Laura Camien: Oh, it was like it was like an engine running, you know, at all times.

[22:18] Susan Blackwell: There was no letting that down. Because you just think about like tons of analogies and metaphors here, but a juggler with like 25 balls in the air, and you have to keep them all going.

[22:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:29] Susan Blackwell: But I remember also slowly over time reading about people who had led interesting lives, interesting lives, lives like worth writing about. And these were like, you know, historical people, but it could have been like women who had made different choices in their lives.

[22:52] Laura Camien: Like I remember reading about Frida Kahlo and Gloria Steinem.

[22:56] Susan Blackwell: Like maybe they didn't um marry right away or ever. Maybe they chose not to have children, maybe they were widowed, or took many lovers of all genders. Maybe they were wore pants before it was legal, or they traveled, or they simply like ate dinner alone in public places.

[23:17] Laura Camien: And let me tell you, for a girl who was taught to do everything right, yeah, these stories were downright scandalous to me.

[23:26] Susan Blackwell: And I freaking loved them. They were like my portal to another possible life.

[23:34] Laura Camien: Yeah, you know, I loved reading about the heartbreaks and the discoveries, the loves and the loss and the fantastic successes and the crushing failures, all of it.

[23:45] Susan Blackwell: And somewhere along the way, I made a decision about my own life, and I determined, and I mean determined that I wanted to live an interesting life too.

[24:00] Laura Camien: Really?

[24:01] Susan Blackwell: Like consciously consciously.

[24:04] Laura Camien: Like at what age?

[24:05] Susan Blackwell: Like I fought for it. It was definitely in college, because I mean, as you know, I did things like I made choices, and then I was like, I'm backing right out of this because this is a road to this is a road to doing everything right, and this over here is a road to something in the life I want to live.

[24:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[24:28] Susan Blackwell: This is fascinating. Cammy, I've known you for a long time, and God knows we have clocks and hours talking, and I don't think I've ever heard you say this before.

[24:37] Laura Camien: Yeah, I made a conscious choice in around college age that you were like, I want to live an interesting life, a life worthy of being in a book.

[24:48] Susan Blackwell: Writing about, yeah. I mean, if you think about it.

[24:51] Laura Camien: So as the people pleaser that I was, you know, as a child trying to make everything perfect, make everyone happy. Everyone, you know, everyone needed to like me. I needed to, you know, like no one could have any problems with me, or I would be like completely distraught that I hadn't, you know, done everything right to please that person.

[25:11] Susan Blackwell: Um and I remember the realization, it was probably like one of those sayings that, you know, um well-behaved women seldom make history.

[25:24] Laura Camien: And I realized, and I it might have been my dad, honestly, but someone made me realize like, guess what?

[25:33] Susan Blackwell: If no one's talking bad about you, it's because they're not talking about you at all.

[25:33] Laura Camien: They're not talking about you at all, is because you're not doing anything of consequence, anything of interest at all.

[25:49] Susan Blackwell: And you know, these are just little seeds that were planted, but somewhere along the way, all of those things added up to me that I was like, right.

[26:00] Laura Camien: And it all goes back to like when we talk about like if you do anything, people will come for you.

[26:05] Susan Blackwell: We talk about that all the time.

[26:07] Laura Camien: Like, get if you try any idea, people will come for you.

[26:11] Susan Blackwell: They will come for you.

[26:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[26:13] Susan Blackwell: And for me, that was like breaking down that barrier and saying, like, okay, I am gonna be okay with, you know, if someone is, yeah, someone talks about me. I can't control what they're gonna say.

[26:25] Laura Camien: I can, you know, do my best to live the life that I intend to live without harming any others.

[26:34] Susan Blackwell: Um, but but I can't control, you know, how someone else perceives that. And that was an enormous, you know, and that wasn't in a like a lightning bolt moment.

[26:43] Laura Camien: That was I love that.

[26:44] Susan Blackwell: I made that choice that um I wanted to live a life worth writing about or an interesting life.

[26:52] Laura Camien: I love it.

[26:53] Susan Blackwell: And this meant for me letting go of doing things perfectly right or doing things the way other people would do them. And this meant that my life might look different from the outside.

[27:06] Laura Camien: And maybe you'd see the perceived mistakes or perceived failures right out in the open.

[27:11] Susan Blackwell: And trust me, I've had people point them out, these failures and flaws, but I have learned to feel really proud of every one of them, to let them be seen and let them be honored, because all of them make up an interesting life.

[27:28] Susan Blackwell: So for me, Kintsugi, um, and here we are now in the midst of a pandemic, which I would say is interesting to say the least. In talking with my therapist the other day, she said that issues that exist prior to the pandemic are simply amplified by the pandemic. And that made me start to wonder if this situation might just help us all admit to a few flaws, quote unquote, or embrace the scars. Like it just seems like because everyone has been hitting their own personal breaking point, emotionally, physically, financially. Yeah, for many people, it means like having no choice but to surface some of their feelings and articulate some of their vulnerabilities. And I think making them visible is such an incredible thing.

Rather than discussing what's different or broken within us, there does seem to be more people like seeing the collective pain in each other and recognizing it. And maybe even if we don't feel yet like it's beautiful, at least we recognize it in ourselves.

[28:43] Laura Camien: Yeah. Does that make sense?

[28:45] Susan Blackwell: It does make sense. And I'm just thinking about people who I wish for them. I wish for people as everyone's um feelings are being amplified and everybody's issues are being amplified by this. I hope that people have the support that they need or get the support that they need to make because what you're describing with Kintsugi and how it relates to the art and how it relates to say apply that metaphor to a human experience, is it requires time and care and some processing to get to the beautiful part.

[29:26] Laura Camien: Yes.

[29:26] Susan Blackwell: And I would offer this, like it does like on a really, really deep to like surface all of that. Yes. On a daily level, it could simply mean laughing at yourself or you know, letting those dishes stand one more day without washing them. Like it doesn't have to be a character flaw. It can simply be something that you accept. And um like you know it doesn't everything doesn't have to be perfectly perfect all the time, whether that's to please a narcissistic parent or to please a house guest with your beautiful expensive vase, or to win at the pandemic, or to you know, um, feel like a victorious over this thing. Kintsugi is also called the art of broken pieces, or the art of embracing damage, and embracing damage felt so powerful to me.

It's like that technique in therapy when you like visualize your inner child at an age when a trauma happened, or an age when a hurt happened and it still resonates for you. And you simply imagine embracing the child and helping to like heal this old wound.

[30:44] Laura Camien: Yeah, I love that.

[30:46] Susan Blackwell: Um I feel like I spend so much time, Camien, and your sparks just being like, I love that, I love that. I love that. I love that. I wish somebody would just do a super cut of me telling you, I love that. I love that.

[31:00] Laura Camien: Thanks, Susan.

[31:03] Susan Blackwell: Um the Kintsugi technique suggests that we shouldn't throw things away simply because they are broken. It can be remade into something just as useful, just as beautiful, if not more so. And it still feels right now to me like we're still in this moment where so many people are like in a hurry to fix the world, like put it back exactly the way that it was.

[31:31] Laura Camien: Oh boy.

[31:32] Susan Blackwell: But this has scarred us. You know, there are changes in the composition of our world from this point forward.

[31:40] Laura Camien: A million percent.

[31:42] Susan Blackwell: One million percent. There's changes in our collective world and in our individual lives. And I think there's value in looking at them and asking ourselves: is it possible to remake the world or remake our individual worlds in a similar but more beautiful way?

[32:00] Laura Camien: Ugh.

[32:01] Susan Blackwell: Fuck Camien, that's awesome. Can we have like veins of gold running through our lives that we will look back and say, and that is that is the scar from um, you know, the coronavirus, and we made it through and we built something more beautiful. So what can we make of it? Um, I think we can look at what feels broken right now and just start by not trying to fix it right away. Spend some time embracing the damage, accepting and learning to love the scars. And when the time feels right, very gently, can we begin to fill the broken spaces with liquid gold, with love, with beauty, with joy, with laughter, with art. It is possible we might come out of this whole thing with a bigger understanding of our lives and what we want to get out of them, and a better understanding of and appreciation for our broken world.

[33:04] Laura Camien: I'll just leave you.

[33:07] Susan Blackwell: I will just leave you with these words from Alexandra. Before I drop the mic, yeah, that you would be mad at this. I will leave you with words of Alexandra Heather Foss, who wrote in an article on Tiny Buddha.com, I see beauty as the grace point between what hurts and what heals, between the shadow of tragedy and the light of joy. I find beauty in my scars.

[33:33] Laura Camien: Camien goes son of a bitch. Um I have a few, I have a few while you were talking, I was just like scribbling notes. Um, I love this, I love this.

[33:47] Susan Blackwell: So the person that I was referring to who first told me about this concept of Kintsugi, which I think I had seen but didn't know the name of it, didn't know a lot about it, was one of the educators I work with at the Metropolitan Opera. And he was telling me how he has been trained in this mediation process where if there are um two people or two groups of people, like there's a rift there. Yeah, this there's a training process where you learn how to be with people and help them mediate through whatever the disruption is while you mend a bowl with Kintsugi.

[34:31] Laura Camien: Wow.

[34:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's so cool. Now I hope I'm getting that right because I've only heard about that, like I've never experienced it myself. So I'm I'm a little bit like pulling this out of my ass. But I thought that was really, really cool. And when they told me about that, sorry, go ahead.

[34:49] Laura Camien: No, no, no. I I was just gonna say, had I like had access to that type of therapy when I was younger, that that could be like life transforming because again, as a child of a narcissist, you really learn that like breaking something is like now you've ruined it forever. So a single fight with a friend or a boyfriend or whatnot, and now it's ruined. And I mean ruined, because you know, this idea of perfection is so strong. And if you can get everything right, then everything will be okay.

[35:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[35:24] Laura Camien: So if I had learned earlier, like it really would have changed my life. I mean, I'm there now, but the idea that, oh, you can have a fight and you can repair and you and it can be even more glorious and more beautiful than before. What a wonderful way to illustrate that as you're working through issues to then it like even have this thing that you worked on together be like a physical manifestation of that process.

[35:54] Susan Blackwell: How freaking awesome.

[35:56] Laura Camien: Yeah, I loved it. So I went home and I looked up how did you do Kintsugi? Because I have a few pieces. Um that I've ordered ceramic pieces and also a piece of glass that I ordered and they came in broken into big chunks, big pieces. And I thought instead of just gluing these together or throwing them away, could I potentially do this Kintsugi technique that this teacher had been describing to me? And I didn't do it, and I couldn't figure out how to do it. I I know you can do it by mixing like gold-colored sort of craft dust with lacquer.

[36:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, with lacquer and lacquer.

[36:39] Laura Camien: And I was like, you know, I'd love to learn how to do it with real metals, but that's that's a whole other thing. But I'm I'm totally fascinated by this. And the other thing that it brings to mind for me, talk about um, what do you make of it? Because of Now Hear This, because we've been doing so much work around this musical that is based on experiences from the lives of the original collaborators. I have had experience to go back into this material and things like The Golden Palace and things like there's a song on there called I Rarely Schedule Nothing. And it's all about me in high school just being so busy, and I'm the honor society president and the student council president and the head of the cheerleading squad and all of this stuff, and I fill up my time and I fill up my days, and I rarely schedule nothing, because if I had nothing to do, and the big scary secret is that I live in a hoarding house, and how shameful that was to me for so long, and then to take that and Kintsugi it and be like, we're gonna make a story about this, and we're gonna make a musical number about this, and it's gonna be like up tempo and dancing and and that I think that's a Kintsugi too.

[38:00] Susan Blackwell: It is a Kintsugi, it's a vein of gold. Like the fact that you grow up in that house the way you did is a vein of gold. It's exactly what you said earlier. Like the like what we teach in our workshops, that all those things that we've been through are now such gifts.

[38:18] Laura Camien: Sparks, they're sparks, they are sparks.

[38:21] Susan Blackwell: You're gorgeous.

[38:22] Laura Camien: That was beautiful.

[38:23] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thanks. You're gorgeous too. Should we take a little break?

[38:27] Laura Camien: Shall we?

[38:28] Susan Blackwell: Let's do it.

[38:30] Laura Camien: Okay. Welcome back, everybody. Um, speaking of the Now Hear This, first, I just I want to shout out my people at the Orange County School of the Arts.

[38:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:41] Laura Camien: If you all heard my spark last week about their virtual spring musical, a production of our musical Now Hear This, then you know the backstory. But if you didn't listen to last week's podcast, the 30-second version is that we were all set to try out a new flexible version of our original musical Now Hear This at Orange County School of the Arts, aka OSHA, when the pandemic struck and all live theater got canceled, and my trip to go work with them and rehearsals was canceled. But then we thought, what if this is the one spring musical that doesn't get canceled? What if the show went online? And that is exactly what the whole creative team and the students did. And the whole thing was recorded, lit, costumed, and filmed by these students and their families in quarantine. And it had its run May 14th through 17th on YouTube. And I just want to say, shout out all the love to all those people because it was glorious.

[39:40] Susan Blackwell: Those performances, the creativity, all of it. They did their own like sort of golden carpet uh on Insta InstaTV, like all of it, their creativity around all of it was stunning. I loved it. And the thing that moved me about these students and their teachers and the whole community, actually, was their resilience, their resilience. Speaking of Kintsugi, their resilience through creativity. I know that the idea of creativity, especially when we're all in survival mode, can seem unnecessary and even impossible. And when you're in legit fight or flight, that might be true. But when I think of our broader definition of creativity, applied imagination that fights for the powers of good, then creativity can be about problem solving or basic self-expression or finding a way to stay afloat and resilient in extremely challenging circumstances.

[40:39] Laura Camien: That's right.

[40:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so that is my spark for this week. Resilience through creativity.

[40:42] Laura Camien: Oh, I can't wait. I love this.

[40:46] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[40:46] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I always feel the need to say, like, I think you made the point so beautifully in an earlier episode. This is not necessarily about pandemic productivity. This isn't about like doing the pandemic the best or any of that, or driving yourself, if you're not, you know, to feel like you have to write King Lear from quarantine.

[41:07] Susan Blackwell: This isn't about that. Um, but it is about something. So let's unpack it. Uh, sources for my spark come from an article on facinghistory.org, a fantastic study guide produced by the UN entitled The Last Flight of Pettergins, Vetom Underground.com, a YouTube video produced by Yad Vashem, and an article from the Holocaust Memorial Resource, and an article from the Holocaust Memorial Resource and Education Center of Florida, KMs, Florida, I said. Florida.

[41:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:42] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I've had this spark in my file since back when we were last at the Metropolitan Opera, and I did my spark about Brindabar, the children's opera that was staged in Theresaad. So, in case you missed that episode or um you blocked it out because it's a toughie, but it's a goodie, uh, a little refresher on Teresenstadt. So Terrazin was essentially an old fortress town near Prague, Czechoslovakia, with about a population during that time of about 7,000 people. And in June of 1940, the Nazis took control of Teresen. They expelled all its all of its non-Jewish residents. They renamed it Teresa and began promoting it as a model Jewish settlement to the outside world, while in reality it served as a transit camp for those being transported to Auschwitz and other concentration camps.

[42:51] Susan Blackwell: So Teresianstadt was open for about three and a half years, and nearly 140,000 Jews from all over Central Europe passed through on their way to other camps. And while Jews weren't gassed at Theresenstadt, more than 30,000 people died of disease and hunger. But despite overcrowding, food shortages and forced labor, Theresenstadt's population of prominent Jewish artists and musicians and academics and creatives gave the ghetto this thriving cultural life. And you'll recall one of the articles I cited compared it to a Juilliard for Jews. There were classes and concerts and so many things going on in cellars and attics, and so much of it was in secret.

[43:53] Susan Blackwell: And another boy who ended up there was called Petter Gins. Petter Gins was born in Prague in February 1928. His mother Maria had been raised in a Catholic family, and she and her husband Otto kept what was described as a liberal but traditional Jewish home. So they were parents to Petter and Petter's younger sister Eva, who was two years younger than he was. As a kid, they had a happy early childhood in Prague, and their parents encouraged them in their education. So after elementary school, Petter's parents sent him to a special school for exceptional children. He had a vivid imagination, he had a creative mind, and this adventurous spirit, which he expressed in many different ways. His favorite studies were the sciences, but Petter loved to draw, and he always had a notebook with him and some pencils.

And he was totally sparked by the writing of the 19th century French author and sci-fi pioneer Jules Verne. And of course, most of us know that Jules Verne was writing about air and space travel and undersea voyages before these types of adventures were practical reality. And Petter was full-on obsessed with it.

[45:12] Susan Blackwell: So Jules Verne, for example, famously wrote a novel titled Around the World in Eighty Days. And Petter, as a boy, wrote a novel entitled Around the World in One Second. By the time he was 14, Petter also had written several other sci-fi novels. He was just really clever. When German soldiers occupied Czechoslovakia in March 1939, they brought Nazi anti-Semitic laws and definitions with them. And when those anti-Jewish measures were implemented, Petter and Eva, his sister, were both classified as Mishlinge of the first degree. And that is to say, children of a mixed marriage in which two grandparents were Jewish. So they had they were classified in this way. By December of 1941, deportations from Prague to Theresianstadt ghetto had begun, and the Ginns family was gradually broken up.

[46:13] Laura Camien: Cams, when you see pictures of this family together, they are they look like even in a still black and white photo, they look like they enjoy each other.

[46:26] Susan Blackwell: It's one of them most interesting things I've seen.

[46:39] Laura Camien: Amazing thing to capture in a photograph of that time.

[46:42] Susan Blackwell: That's incredible.

[46:44] Laura Camien: Million percent, one million percent.

[46:46] Susan Blackwell: But then it's even more heartbreaking because then in 1941, they started to slowly break this family apart. In October of 1942, at the age of 14, Petter learned that his name had been included on the transport list for Theresian Stadt, and he had to leave that same evening.

[47:08] Laura Camien: So what? Can you say that again?

[47:10] Susan Blackwell: What? I sure can. In October of 1942, he's working at a typewriter shop, this typewriter repair shop, and the manager manager of the shop told him the news that he had to leave. He was being transported to Theresianstadt, and he had to leave that night.

[47:31] Laura Camien: Oh, God.

[47:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And we know about all of this because Petter wrote about it. So he left the shop. First, he told everybody goodbye because he didn't know when he would see them again. So he told all his co-workers goodbye. And then he walked home trying to absorb the sounds of his neighborhood because he had a suspicion he would not hear those sounds again for a long time. He was instructed to select things he wanted to bring with him. And this is what he chose paper, linoleum, and small knives for cutting the linoleum, and his unfinished novel, The Wizard of Alte Mountains, and a few watercolor paints. These were his most valued possessions. Petter described in his writings his goodbye with his father who kissed him several times, and his aunt who gave him one last kiss. And then he was transported to Theresianstadt.

[48:31] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[48:33] Susan Blackwell: When he got there, the children lived in these group quarters separate from the adults. And Petter and about 100 other boys lived in something called home number one of Barrack L417. And while they were living there, these boys were secretly educated by adults in an effort to make their lives a bit more normal. Um, which that was the the opera Brundebar grew out of that too. That was a way for them to provide some normalcy for these young people in these extreme circumstances. Under the guidance of their teacher, Walter Isinger, who was a communist who preached free thought, Petter and these boys created a system of self-government in order to organize their own lives.

[49:19] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[49:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So they're in this barracks with like a hundred boys. And if you can picture it, it's sort of like a big open room, and the their bunk beds are sort of stacked three high, like like floor level, and then another one, and then another one. And they gave themselves, they they created this system of self-government. And this group of boys kind of became this warm, supportive new family for each other. In his writing, Petter said, Yeah, I know. So I know I'm just like, of course, that's how you get through. You get through it like together.

[50:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, you get through it together.

[50:02] Susan Blackwell: That's right. In his writing, Petter said, We no longer wanted to be an accidental group of boys passively succumbing to the fate metered out to us. And boy, did they make good on that idea. From July 1942 to September 1944, these young boys founded and produced their own newspaper, a weekly underground zine called Vedom.

[50:29] Laura Camien: Which in Czech means in the lead.

[50:32] Susan Blackwell: We are the leaders.

[50:34] Laura Camien: Yes.

[50:36] Susan Blackwell: Yes, girls.

[50:37] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[50:39] Susan Blackwell: I am so that's amazing. Get ready because there's a lot to celebrate.

[50:45] Laura Camien: Oh God.

[50:46] Susan Blackwell: Petter, as the editor of Vedom, was the leader of these young leaders. And he was, that's right, a frequent contributor to the magazine that they all created. He remembered 14 years old, 14 years old.

[50:57] Laura Camien: 14 years old.

[51:01] Susan Blackwell: Yep. In like separated from your family.

[51:04] Laura Camien: Oh God.

[51:05] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Yep. So he oversaw the newsroom. He urged uh contributors to write about what they thought and what they saw and what they did. So if a boy had a job, you know, this is like forced labor. And if a boy had a job hauling dead bodies to the crematorium, Petter would encourage that boy to write about it. He commissioned articles for the magazine. He paid his writers with food that his family sent him in care packages. He hounded his contributors, aka his fellow bunkmates, to have their submissions in on time. Talk about an accountability partner.

[51:41] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[51:43] Susan Blackwell: If there were not enough articles, then Petter wrote them under a pseudonym. So if they were like, if they needed more content, he would write more and he would do it under a pseudonym.

[51:53] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[51:53] Susan Blackwell: He had his own column called Ghetto Rambles, where he visited different parts of Terrasianstadt, such as the bakeries and the morgue, and he interviewed people there and he wrote about them.

[52:04] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[52:05] Susan Blackwell: How about it, school newspaper? So in their shared room, the boys wrote at the center in this on this wooden table or up on their bunks. And bunkmates were kept on lookout to give a secret signal if a German guard was nearby. But the boys, even with those restrictions, the boys made every effort to create a real magazine, even jokingly adding a price on the cover. Um, Vedham published opinion pieces, artwork, poems, reflections about the past and the future, jokes, comics, essays, puzzles, cynical observations, drawings and illustrations, and the quote of the week.

[52:48] Laura Camien: Unbelievable.

[52:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So these pieces that they created described life in Therese and Stadt and often recalled the boys' prior lives in their hometowns. Some poems were about specific events that the boys witnessed, like people dying, families being separated, while others expressed the boys' fears and outrage, hopes and dreams. And the work ranged from silly and playful to mournful and tragic to hopeful. Just the full spectrum of what their experience was. Because it wasn't always, I mean, there was clearly extreme challenge, but it wasn't there.

[53:38] Laura Camien: You know, there were there was laughter and there was music.

[53:42] Susan Blackwell: So it was it the wide variety of their work represents the wide spectrum of experiences they were having at this time. To me, it seems like they were using their creativity as a way of coping with their reality and giving themselves and yes, and giving themselves a voice, yeah, and ordering their thoughts, and finding meaning in their experiences.

[54:09] Laura Camien: That's right. Um, also Petter's imagination and creativity became a means of resistance for him and for the other boys.

[54:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Through through Vedom's stories and illustrations, Petter conveyed his determination to maintain his free will and independence by not surrendering to the Nazis. There's this is beautifully represented on this one cover that was drawn by Petter, that it's a canon, but it's not made out of metal. It's made of a rolled up copy of Venom.

[54:37] Laura Camien: Oh, this canon is like blasting into, you know, the opponent.

[54:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[54:44] Laura Camien: And there are there's a pile of cannonballs piled up next to it, and each has a different label in check, but the translation is humor, laughter, satire.

[54:55] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[54:55] Laura Camien: So they were using their humor, laughter, and satire to just like lob a cannonball at their foes, essentially.

[55:05] Susan Blackwell: I mean, it's yeah, it's coping at its best.

[55:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:08] Susan Blackwell: You know, we talk a lot about being onto something and to wake up with purpose.

[55:14] Laura Camien: Yes.

[55:14] Susan Blackwell: And I would imagine that being in those conditions or any really traumatizing position, the idea of being onto something or knowing what your purpose is when you wake up in the morning is a crucial element to coping, to getting through it, like setting your eyes on something and marching toward it.

[55:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:39] Susan Blackwell: Percent. What those boys were creating with Vedem was such an act of defiance, and it was a dangerous one.

[55:47] Laura Camien: The writers, 40 Jewish boys between the ages of 13 and 15 braved hunger, exhaustion, forced labor, and homesickness.

[55:56] Susan Blackwell: And they would regularly risk on top of all that, they would regularly risk their lives by sneaking into forbidden places in the ghetto in order to write their articles.

[56:05] Laura Camien: Wow.

[56:06] Susan Blackwell: Because the potential—

[56:08] Laura Camien: Sorry, go ahead.

[56:09] Susan Blackwell: Did you say all of it's written under pseudonym, right?

[56:12] Laura Camien: I mean, there's no they couldn't tell you.

[56:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm gonna tell you more about that.

[56:16] Laura Camien: Oh my goodness.

[56:17] Susan Blackwell: Sorry. That's just you're asking all the right questions, young journalists.

[56:22] Laura Camien: I'm so with you.

[56:24] Susan Blackwell: You're you're right on track. So because of the potential for being killed for their contributions to Vedem, the magazine's writers and editors assumed nicknames.

[56:34] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[56:35] Susan Blackwell: In order to conceal their identities. In case the magazine was ever found, their captors wouldn't be able to pinpoint the exact creators.

[56:44] Laura Camien: So here are some of the nicknames Beanie, Cement, Salami, Flash, Trixie, Baron Munchausen, and Cold Blooded Horse.

[56:58] Susan Blackwell: Awesome.

[56:59] Laura Camien: And Petter, I believe, went by Enzy, which is Pettergins.

[57:05] Susan Blackwell: It's the last piece of his name.

[57:07] Laura Camien: I love it.

[57:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, isn't that badass?

[57:09] Laura Camien: That's a good tag. Um, the most prolific contributors eventually referred to themselves as the Academy, which I love.

[57:18] Susan Blackwell: I love the Academy is a great name for anything.

[57:22] Laura Camien: A dance crew, a band, an album.

[57:26] Susan Blackwell: It's just a fantastic name.

[57:28] Laura Camien: A group of boys who write an underground scene. Um, about 100 boys pass through home number one between 1942 and 1944, and many of them are only known by their nicknames.

[57:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[57:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And speaking of Vedem's early artwork reflected things that a typical 1940s Central European teenage boy would draw, including depictions of ships and pets and families, but their artwork evolved to reflect what they were experiencing at Theresienstadt, the harsh realities and specifically subjects such as a family boarding a ghetto-bound train or an old person suffering from illness and a guard holding a gun.

[58:13] Laura Camien: And while much of the work was created by Petter, the identity of many of the illustrators remains a mystery because much of their work was unsigned, perhaps to maintain their deniability in case it was ever found.

[58:25] Susan Blackwell: So on one hand, I'm like, yes, yes, boys, good work on staying safe.

[58:32] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[58:33] Susan Blackwell: And on the other hand, it's it's uh such a loss to not be able to celebrate who created that beautiful writing and artwork.

[58:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[58:42] Susan Blackwell: Um, the production of Vedem was a near miracle because of the limited resources. Issues were printed with a typewriter found in the former school's offices, while paper and supplies were smuggled into the bunk room from little offices in the ghetto.

[58:58] Laura Camien: This is crazy because how do you type quietly?

[59:01] Susan Blackwell: You can't typewriters quietly. You're calling attention to yourself with every keystroke.

[59:08] Laura Camien: It's absolutely true.

[59:09] Susan Blackwell: It's absolutely true. But I also think of that the concerts that they would have uh in secret at Theresienstadt in cellars and in attics. And I'm just like, oh, how the hell do you just pile blankets around the person who is playing their violin or the typist to muffle the sound?

[59:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[59:28] Susan Blackwell: Uh that might have also been why they, I'm just speculating here, but it might have been why they snuck into like empty spaces and offices to write and work on stuff.

[59:38] Laura Camien: And they imperiled themselves by doing so because had they been caught, they would have been uh killed, actually.

[59:45] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, so the stakes are pretty high. Um the boys transcribed articles written on paper scraps into elegant copy for the magazine's pages.

[59:59] Laura Camien: So they would take these little scraps of writing and then they would they would like sort of like typeset it or paste it into the magazine and listen to this. So they had found this old typewriter in one of the abandoned offices, and the ribbon ran out after Vedem's 30th issue.

[1:00:19] Susan Blackwell: So the boys wrote the remaining 53 issues of the magazine by hand.

[1:00:25] Laura Camien: And so the copy of the issue was by hand.

[1:00:30] Susan Blackwell: Well, listen to this, Camien. With the limited supplies and writing like this at all was completely forbidden.

[1:00:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:00:40] Susan Blackwell: And because of that, just one copy of Vedem was produced each week, and it was quote unquote circulated via an intimate spoken word reading each Friday night in their bunkhouse.

[1:00:54] Laura Camien: One boy stood guard during the reading and gave a secret signal if a German guard was approaching.

[1:01:01] Susan Blackwell: Vedem's weekly readings amongst its writers and editors provided a rare forum for personal victory, truth, camaraderie, and self-esteem, and eventually attracted some of Theresienstadt's cultural and academic elite who were drawn to the expressions of spirit, truth, and solidarity that these teenage boys were espousing.

[1:01:21] Laura Camien: Isn't that the shit?

[1:01:24] Susan Blackwell: They had a every Friday night, they came together and they read and celebrated what they had created during the previous week.

[1:01:34] Laura Camien: And then the adults started showing up because they were like, Yes, yes, young freedom fighters, yes.

[1:01:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm not really molding it together very well.

[1:01:43] Laura Camien: That's okay.

[1:01:44] Susan Blackwell: Let it go, broadcast news. Let it go.

[1:01:46] Laura Camien: Okay. Um, in this excellent YouTube video posted by Yad Vashem, the narrator says, through Vedem and laughter and writing and comradeship and free will and thought, these young creators found meaning and maybe even hope in a world of chaos and uncertainty.

[1:02:05] Susan Blackwell: Which I love because we live in a world of chaos and uncertainty. But you know, there are people that have gone before us and they have showed a potential template for how a potential possibility for how to be.

[1:02:19] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:02:20] Susan Blackwell: However, as Petter approached the age 16, the age he would be considered an adult, he grew thinner and he grew more concerned.

[1:02:30] Laura Camien: No.

[1:02:31] Susan Blackwell: I'm sorry, Camien.

[1:02:34] Laura Camien: And indeed, on 28th of September 1944, at the age of 16, Petter Gins was transported to Auschwitz, where he was murdered in the gas chamber.

[1:02:45] Susan Blackwell: Before he left for Auschwitz, he gave his diary to his sister Eva.

[1:02:51] Laura Camien: In addition to all of his other creativity, Petter had also kept a diary every day.

[1:02:57] Susan Blackwell: And he was able to give it to his sister before he was transported.

[1:03:02] Laura Camien: Eva lived to see the camp's liberation and was reunited with her parents in Prague after Theresienstadt Ghetto was liberated by the Soviet forces on May 8th, 1945.

[1:03:15] Susan Blackwell: So his family, with the exception of Petter, they survived.

[1:03:21] Laura Camien: That's unbelievable.

[1:03:24] Susan Blackwell: And his diary survived with her.

[1:03:29] Laura Camien: His diary has been published under the title The Diary of Pettergins.

[1:03:35] Susan Blackwell: And in it he says, The seed of a creative idea does not die in mud and scum. Even there, it will germinate and spread its blossom like a star shining in the darkness.

[1:03:49] Laura Camien: Isn't that gorgeous?

[1:03:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Are you done?

[1:03:52] Laura Camien: Here's here's something beautiful. Maybe this will help.

[1:03:56] Susan Blackwell: Maybe this will dry your tears.

[1:03:58] Laura Camien: Okay. After the war, there was only one boy from the group who remained in Theresienstadt. He made it through the whole war.

[1:04:06] Susan Blackwell: And that boy's name was Zenek Tausig.

[1:04:13] Laura Camien: He collected every copy of Vedem, put them in a cardboard box, and buried them in the blacksmith's shop where his father worked in Theresienstadt.

[1:04:24] Susan Blackwell: He said he didn't expect that they would survive.

[1:04:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:04:27] Susan Blackwell: But they did.

[1:04:28] Laura Camien: And when Theresienstadt was liberated, Zenek unearthed the box and took them with him to Prague.

[1:04:36] Susan Blackwell: And the complete surviving collection of Vedem, consisting of 83 issues, 800 original pages, is now housed in the Theresienstadt memorial.

[1:04:47] Laura Camien: Unbelievable.

[1:04:50] Susan Blackwell: It all survived.

[1:04:52] Laura Camien: It all survived thanks to this boy, Zenek Tausig.

[1:04:57] Susan Blackwell: These, these um, these guys knew how to make it happen and were resourceful and creative in making sure that it survived too.

[1:05:08] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:05:10] Susan Blackwell: The remarkable thing about this material and the fact that it survives is all of this contained within Vedem provides us with this straight up view into the lives of these boys.

[1:05:24] Laura Camien: And it shows us their creativity and their resiliency, even under horrific conditions.

[1:05:30] Susan Blackwell: And if not for Vedem and not for the work of Petter Gins and all of these contributors, these experiences that these boys were living wouldn't have been recorded so thoroughly and probably would have been forgotten or never come to light at all.

[1:05:45] Laura Camien: So in addition to everything else they were accomplishing, they were creating a record.

[1:05:49] Susan Blackwell: And to your point, Camien, a legacy. One of the boys who survived and grew to adulthood said, the magazine shows the world that we did fight back.

[1:05:59] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:06:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh that gets me.

[1:06:02] Laura Camien: Their creativity.

[1:06:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:06:04] Laura Camien: With their creativity. Petter's powerful imagination continued working until he took his final steps at Auschwitz, as evidenced in his artwork and his writing.

[1:06:13] Susan Blackwell: In the film The Last Flight of Petter Gins, they explained how strong Petter's creativity was, even despite the difficulties he encountered every day living in the ghetto away from his family.

[1:06:26] Laura Camien: The documentary says making art is embedded in someone to such an extent that even life, such as it was in Theresienstadt, for many artists and for Petter for sure, did not cut the urge to make art.

[1:06:40] Susan Blackwell: Petter's imagination also enabled him to go to places and see things in his mind's eye that others had not.

[1:06:50] Laura Camien: For example, Petter drew this piece called Moon Landscape.

[1:06:55] Susan Blackwell: He drew this in Theresienstadt before anyone had traveled to the moon.

[1:06:59] Laura Camien: There were no photographs taken by astronauts picturing the surface of the moon yet.

[1:07:03] Susan Blackwell: And he drew this piece.

[1:07:05] Laura Camien: It looks like it's pencil on paper, and it's looking across the landscape of the moon as he imagined it.

[1:07:13] Susan Blackwell: And in the distance, you can see Earth like out in the distance.

[1:07:17] Laura Camien: So even while he was incarcerated in a place where so much was taken from him, Petter was dreaming about outer space and science fiction.

[1:07:26] Susan Blackwell: And I really I really feel like this demonstrates that no one, no one can ever take away a person's imagination and creativity.

[1:07:35] Laura Camien: No, it's your mind.

[1:07:37] Susan Blackwell: That's what you even imprison you physically, but not mentally.

[1:07:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:07:44] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it?

[1:07:45] Laura Camien: So some things have already been made of it. Um, as I mentioned, an animated documentary called The Last Flight of Petter Gins.

[1:07:52] Susan Blackwell: It was directed by Sandra Dixon, and it takes his drawings and illustrations, and it animates them.

[1:08:02] Laura Camien: And it also, there's narration that are his writings being read.

[1:08:10] Susan Blackwell: So you get to hear his words.

[1:08:14] Susan Blackwell: There's a museum exhibit. Since 2016, the Venom Foundation has produced, operated, and promoted a traveling museum collection titled Venom Underground, where you can see the work of Pettergins and these young creative activists.

[1:08:28] Laura Camien: And what do you make of it?

[1:08:30] Susan Blackwell: I say your own zine, perhaps chronicling the times that we're living in now.

[1:08:36] Laura Camien: My God, yeah. If you're a teacher, I know that a lot of teachers and parents are really struggling right now.

[1:08:46] Susan Blackwell: But I just want to say take a page from the book of these teachers who were creating normalcy for these young people during the Holocaust in camps, using anything at their disposal. So if you can take a scrap of inspiration from that, my God.

[1:09:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:09:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:09:06] Laura Camien: Like not just creating normalcy for them, but um also literally teaching them how their imagination and their minds can free them from, you know, whatever physical constraints we're feeling at the moment.

[1:09:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, exactly. Petter's sister, formerly Eva Gins, she must have married and changed her name to Hava Pressberger. She made something beautiful. She partnered with the UN to create a beautiful study guide to accompany the documentary The Last Flight of Pettergins, and in it she says these words.

[1:09:43] Laura Camien: Petter's many books and illustrations show the depth of his talent and desire to learn.

[1:09:48] Susan Blackwell: While Petter did not return to us, he did make a valuable contribution to the world through his art and writings. It took incredible courage to speak his mind in Venom when surely he risked death if discovered. I am proud that Petter's legacy lives on, and I hope that you will be inspired by Petter to help make this a better world for all.

[1:10:11] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:10:12] Susan Blackwell: And I also want to add this. Cammian, you have alluded to this, but I just want to say this. Not to be morbid, but if you've listened to earlier podcast episodes of The Spark File, you know we're all going to die.

[1:10:29] Laura Camien: And whether that's in a year or two years or 20 or 50 or 70 years, you heard it here first, we're all going to die.

[1:10:37] Susan Blackwell: And in our remaining time, there are going to be good times and there's going to be extremely challenging times.

[1:10:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:10:43] Susan Blackwell: Pettergens and the boys that he lived with and led didn't know how much time they had. And their living conditions, to your point, Cammian, their living conditions were awful. Rats and bedbugs and overcrowding and forced labor and death and starvation all around them. It was awful, but they chose how they were going to live.

[1:11:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:07] Susan Blackwell: And they lived like they were going to survive. They didn't just lay down and sink into their circumstances and fixate on the extreme negatives in their present moment and in their potential futures. They organized themselves, they gave their lives order and purpose and meaning, and they gave themselves something that they could control.

[1:11:27] Laura Camien: They insisted upon creativity and self-expression.

[1:11:31] Susan Blackwell: And as a result, imagine Cammian, imagine listeners, how much different life in that bunkhouse was than in other places that didn't have someone like Pettergins leading the way.

[1:11:45] Laura Camien: It's with the point you just made, Cammian. If you know when your feet hit the floor in the morning, that you have something that's pulling you forward, something that you've put into place, you're gonna live your day differently.

[1:11:57] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:11:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:58] Susan Blackwell: That's right. With intention and purpose and uh, you know, a deliberate moving forward because you know where you're going.

[1:12:09] Laura Camien: Absolutely. When there's a million unknowns around you.

[1:12:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:12:13] Laura Camien: And accountability and um support, absolutely. Just one week at a time.

[1:12:18] Susan Blackwell: All I know right now is that we are going to publish this scene this week. That's all we know.

[1:12:25] Laura Camien: I don't know. I'll tell you, Camille, there have been like let's have some real talk. There have been times when us making this podcast, like this has been the lifeline for me.

[1:12:35] Susan Blackwell: This is the lifeline. One knowing that we have the responsibility of making this and doing our writing our sparks and meeting each other when we say we're gonna meet each other and getting this out. I'm telling you, there have been times when this has been my lifeline.

[1:12:53] Laura Camien: Suze, and now you're gonna make me cry some more, but I'm a hundred percent with you. And what it means is like on a daily level, we're doing we're practicing what we preach, which is eyes open, ears open for that spark, for that little thread, that that thing that we know, you know, we're searching for that's gonna become the spark that we talk about this week on The Spark File.

[1:13:20] Susan Blackwell: One million percent, yes.

[1:13:21] Laura Camien: And and it's a practice that we chose that we want to be in on a daily basis anyway. You know, we want to be of the mindset that we are looking and learning all the time.

[1:13:36] Susan Blackwell: And that alone is purposeful, you know, it's it's a gift that that we then get to craft those ideas into sparks for the podcast.

[1:13:47] Laura Camien: When we started consciously ordering our lives around that, yeah, because we had a deliverable connected to it, yeah, it changed the way my brain worked.

[1:13:55] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[1:13:56] Laura Camien: I am always have my eyes open for the spark, the spark, the spark, the spark, the spark.

[1:14:01] Susan Blackwell: And it's a positive thing. It doesn't feel neurotic and it doesn't feel manic. It's just feels like a practice.

[1:14:09] Laura Camien: And it feels like you have to be in the present moment and you have to be paying attention.

[1:14:13] Susan Blackwell: And I think those are good things.

[1:14:14] Laura Camien: Me too.

[1:14:15] Susan Blackwell: And it's brought more joy and more wonder to me to stop and look at something and think about it in ways that like maybe previously I might have walked right on by and thought, oh, that's pretty, that's neat, and keep going.

[1:14:29] Laura Camien: And now I give you know it further contemplation, which is awesome.

[1:14:35] Susan Blackwell: I love it. I also it makes me think about those, I know that it's different circumstances, but this isn't a Holocaust, but it is a pandemic.

[1:14:45] Laura Camien: Um we many of us, if you're if you're making this podcast or listening to it, we have many more liberties and privileges than people who went through and some people who were lost in that Holocaust.

[1:14:59] Susan Blackwell: That's right. But I so I don't want to, I don't want to make an uneven comparison, but I do think of those students and teachers at OSHA who just produced that full-length musical totally separated from each other in pandemic quarantine, and how they put their experiences of their lives and their lives during the pandemic specifically into the work and how, even though they were physically separated, it connected them, and the whole thing became like a love letter to each other.

[1:15:28] Laura Camien: Honestly, and yeah, they feel they have said they feel a sense of completion and pride, like they crossed a finish line under seemingly impossible circumstances.

[1:15:41] Susan Blackwell: So it makes me think of it because they're the, you know, I believe the children are our future.

[1:15:46] Laura Camien: My God, yes.

[1:15:47] Susan Blackwell: And they could have said collectively, like, it's too hard.

[1:15:52] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's too hard.

[1:15:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but they sure could have. You know what I mean?

[1:15:56] Laura Camien: And and I don't mean to say like we all have to produce a full-length musical, but I think we just need to keep asking ourselves, what can I do? Can I get to diary? If I can't commit to pages, can I do one of those like one line a day diaries? Like, what am I capable of doing and commit to it?

[1:16:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:16:19] Laura Camien: So Cam and I love, you know, we quote this quote 15 times every episode of the podcast, but we love that Walker Percy quote, not to be on to something is to be in despair.

[1:16:30] Susan Blackwell: And the people that I observe thriving during these times, it's typically because they are on to something, and the people I see struggling and despairing, much of the time, again to your point, Cammian, it's because they are not onto something.

[1:16:46] Laura Camien: So I want, I just want to us to ask ourselves and listener, if you care to, I want you to ask yourself whether you get to live another year or two, or 20 or 50 or 70, how do you want to live this life?

[1:16:46] Susan Blackwell: How do you want to live your days?

[1:17:03] Laura Camien: How do you want to conduct yourself?

[1:17:10] Susan Blackwell: And with your remaining precious, brief, fleeting time on this planet. What do you want to make of it?

[1:17:19] Laura Camien: And that is my spark for today. Petterkins and the boys who made Venom.

[1:17:26] Susan Blackwell: Thank you so much.

[1:17:27] Laura Camien: Oh, I honor them so completely.

[1:17:32] Susan Blackwell: I'm honestly drenched in tears. What a beautiful, beautiful spark, Suze.

[1:17:39] Laura Camien: Um, and I'm so happy that their work lives on and that their story lives on.

[1:17:46] Susan Blackwell: That's amazing.

[1:17:47] Laura Camien: I'm just like that, it didn't get eaten by rats, that it didn't mold, that they never got caught.

[1:17:53] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[1:17:54] Laura Camien: That's like it's that it didn't get burned. Like the boys freaked out, and they're so like that no one of those 40 or 100 boys was like, you're gonna get us all in trouble and burn the damn thing.

[1:18:05] Susan Blackwell: Like that all every issue, every issue remains.

[1:18:12] Laura Camien: That's just phenomenal.

[1:18:14] Susan Blackwell: So to Petter and to Trixie and to cold-blooded Horse and a Baron von Munchausen.

[1:18:23] Laura Camien: And I'm so thankful for the legacy of sparks that they leave behind.

[1:18:30] Susan Blackwell: Me too.

[1:18:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:18:31] Susan Blackwell: For their laughter and satire and what was the other?

[1:18:36] Laura Camien: Um I think it's like humor, satire.

[1:18:38] Susan Blackwell: I forget the third one, but come on.

[1:18:41] Laura Camien: I love it. It's beautiful.

[1:18:43] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Suze, that was so good.

[1:18:46] Laura Camien: So so likewise, Cam. You know, I love you.

[1:18:48] Susan Blackwell: You know, I love making this podcast with you.

[1:18:51] Laura Camien: Love you so far.

[1:18:52] Susan Blackwell: I always feel that's so funny. This is like this podcast is like such good medicine.

[1:18:56] Laura Camien: And whenever we finish recording, I always feel better.

[1:18:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I feel totally like on a high.

[1:19:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:19:01] Susan Blackwell: It gives me a speech impediment, but I do feel better.

[1:19:05] Laura Camien: Um, I guess that's it. We hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:19:10] Susan Blackwell: Hey, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share it.

[1:19:18] Laura Camien: Or if you have a question for us.

[1:19:21] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:19:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:19:22] Susan Blackwell: Why not?

[1:19:23] Laura Camien: Need a little advice.

[1:19:24] Susan Blackwell: Um, do you Alex and Annie?

[1:19:26] Laura Camien: I'm depressed.

[1:19:28] Susan Blackwell: Do you Alex and Annie?

[1:19:30] Laura Camien: What am I supposed to do?

[1:19:31] Susan Blackwell: Do you uh do you remember that from Saturday morning?

[1:19:33] Laura Camien: I do not know.

[1:19:35] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it was a thing. It was like a it was like sort of a I'm sure it was all like cooked up, but it was like an ad those letters are on television, on television.

[1:19:46] Laura Camien: It was Alex and Annie, and you could supposedly write to them and ask them for advice, and they would give you good wholesome advice anyway.

[1:19:54] Susan Blackwell: But we're not gonna give you good wholesome advice like Alex and Annie, but you can't email us at thesparkfile@gmail.com and we'll give you the raw, real, real lowdown.

[1:20:02] Laura Camien: Real deal.

[1:20:03] Susan Blackwell: Or you can you can submit through our website, which is even better, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

[1:20:13] Laura Camien: First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:20:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh, and if you want to, you should follow us on social media at The Spark File and be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast.

[1:20:25] Laura Camien: And if you want, you could subscribe, rate, and five-star review it.

[1:20:28] Susan Blackwell: If you like this podcast, we hope that you'll share it with people that you love.

[1:20:32] Laura Camien: And if you didn't like it, you should know we're doing our best in serving at our highest level during this time.

[1:20:38] Susan Blackwell: And if that's not working for you, we wish you the best, and we wish you would go elsewhere.

[1:20:44] Laura Camien: If something tickles your fancy.

[1:20:46] Susan Blackwell: I was gonna comment on that.

[1:20:48] Laura Camien: I was like, I'm gonna go on.

[1:20:50] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:21:00] Laura Camien: It is your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:21:06] Susan Blackwell: You gotta type set it.

[1:21:07] Laura Camien: You gotta guitar fret it.

[1:21:09] Susan Blackwell: You gotta do the thing or make the thing, then let go and forget it.

[1:21:14] Laura Camien: Oh, you gotta take it.

[1:21:17] Susan Blackwell: And make it when I bump into something that inspires me.

[1:21:26] Laura Camien: I dump it in the spark files.

[1:21:31] Susan Blackwell: Could be something that I wanna pick or how I wanna be.

[1:21:36] Laura Camien: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:21:40] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark file.

[1:21:45] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.