This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I want to be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:44] Laura Camien: And I'm Laura Camien.

[0:45] Susan Blackwell: If you're an OG listener, welcome back, little sparkler.

[0:49] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, we hope you know that all are welcome here.

[0:54] Susan Blackwell: Whether you have put your creativity on pause during this time or you've clung to it like a lifeline.

[1:00] Laura Camien: Either way, welcome. But but but you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are such good questions, and we actually do have answers.

[1:10] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm. A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:15] Susan Blackwell: And here's the deal. We are makers who make all kinds of things. If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now.

[1:30] Laura Camien: But don't despair, because we're here for you.

[1:32] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm. And we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:39] Laura Camien: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this very podcast.

[1:45] Susan Blackwell: Or a newfound self-awareness and appreciation for our sensitivities.

[1:51] Laura Camien: Oh interesting. Made you think, didn't it? I love it.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: Or a creative approach to gatherings that elevates them to an art form.

[2:02] Laura Camien: Ooh, I like it. Oh, every episode we're gonna reach into the spark pile and exchange some sparks.

[2:10] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:14] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might just party the hardiest. So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:23] Susan Blackwell: Laura.

[2:23] Laura Camien: How many Laura?

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, Laura.

[2:25] Laura Camien: Susan.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Susan.

[2:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: Laura.

[2:28] Laura Camien: This is the time on the spark file.

[2:30] Susan Blackwell: This is the time on Sparkett's when we dance.

[2:32] Laura Camien: This is the time on the spark file when we share updates.

[2:35] Susan Blackwell: And I realized I do have an update. And that is for my birthday back in March, Hunter Bell, the beloved Hunter Bell.

[2:45] Laura Camien: Friend of ours, um, got me a hummingbird feeder.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: And I have it right outside of my office window. And I will tell you, I feel I feel sort of like a dick because you and I will be in meetings with each other.

[3:01] Laura Camien: We'll be in deep conversations. We will be talking with clients over Zoom.

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: Thoughtful, vulnerable moments.

[3:10] Laura Camien: Yeah. And then all of a sudden, my head will take a sharp turn to the right.

[3:15] Susan Blackwell: Zing, because there's a little hummingbird friend out there. And I have to tell you, it's like tiny little miracles flying by my window.

[3:23] Laura Camien: Oh, yes. I'm all for it. I'm all for it.

[3:26] Susan Blackwell: You know, this time.

[3:29] Laura Camien: Yeah. Just watching like birds are amazing.

[3:32] Susan Blackwell: It's crazy. It's like Tinkerbells flying by my window. I love it so much.

[3:36] Laura Camien: Oh, you know what? Who was it? Our friend Julianne.

[3:41] Susan Blackwell: Julie Ann Godfrey said hummingbirds were a symbol of what?

[3:45] Laura Camien: Susan.

[3:46] Susan Blackwell: Well, she used hummingbirds as an allegory for her ADHD.

[3:54] Laura Camien: She was talking about and like the hummingbird mind. And I thought I just loved that. I loved it so much because it's a thing of beauty. And it is. I just loved it. Anyway, I that's my update. Hummingbirds.

[4:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh, wow. I love your update. My update is the next season of Alone has started, Susan.

[4:18] Laura Camien: It has started. Self-reliance and grizzly bears.

[4:23] Susan Blackwell: Where do they drop them in grizzly bear country?

[4:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's in North America. It's in Canada, Grizzly Bear Country.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't know exactly. Here's the critical question.

[4:33] Laura Camien: What time of year do they drop them?

[4:36] Susan Blackwell: You know, they always drop, uh, it must be like end of summer or end of fall because summer.

[4:43] Laura Camien: We watch the winter transition. So it's always about you always see this pattern of like, right now, food is plentiful.

[4:52] Susan Blackwell: Um they just have like it's like they have time to figure out how to catch the fish and how you know where the the like animal trails are and how to catch the the small animals, and then those things go away and it gets tougher because the weather turns.

[5:10] Laura Camien: But if they make it all the way to spring, does anyone ever make it all the way to spring?

[5:14] Susan Blackwell: They usually tap out in the winter, right?

[5:17] Laura Camien: Well, they tap out, but only like they get told that they've won. So it how long they're there, they don't just endlessly stay. Once they've won, someone comes to tell them.

[5:26] Susan Blackwell: But have we ever seen anybody have to make it all the way to spring?

[5:30] Laura Camien: No. No, it doesn't last that long.

[5:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it doesn't last that long. Because that's when the bears will come out and eat you.

[5:36] Laura Camien: The bears will come out and eat you. That's not a good time to be in grizzly bear territory.

[5:42] Susan Blackwell: It is not. I saw Grizzly Man. I know what's what. Not advisable, friends. If you're listening, don't go.

[5:50] Laura Camien: Yeah. During the pandemic, we had just many nights of binging of alone. You know, I love that show.

[5:56] Susan Blackwell: It's good pandemic viewing. And then there was a tipping point where I was sort of like, this is it feels lonely on top lonely and isolated on top of the phone.

[6:04] Laura Camien: On top of lonely and isolation.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I don't know if I could have watched all of all of them during the pandemic. Although I did read a couple of books about pandemics.

[6:15] Laura Camien: You know, there was like one of my phases of the pandemic was to like, yeah, double up on it and like go all the way. Well, look to the past.

[6:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes. What's the learning?

[6:25] Laura Camien: That is correct. Those are good updates. You got a screen for me?

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: I do. I do. Suze, it's I'm gonna start with something like you know about me, so this will not be surprising.

[6:36] Laura Camien: I think you're well aware that I spent my childhood being told that I was what?

[6:42] Susan Blackwell: Too sensitive.

[6:43] Laura Camien: Senstive.

[6:44] Susan Blackwell: What's that?

[6:45] Laura Camien: As the French would say, Senstive.

[6:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, sensitive.

[6:49] Laura Camien: Yes. And I, you know, as a young kid, I didn't entirely know what they meant, but I could infer it was not meant as a positive.

[7:01] Susan Blackwell: It was definitely a pejorative. It meant, you know, uh you're reading into things that aren't there, you're imagining things, you're crazy.

[7:12] Laura Camien: Because I would like be the one to name the thing. If I I would feel things and I would sense things and I would say, no, I know. Like walk into a room and be like, what's are you guys fighting?

[7:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you've talked about that before.

[7:26] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yeah. From a really young age.

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: From a really young age, which I, you know, I understand. My family probably thought was freaking annoying because, you know, when you don't want to face things because they were busted.

[7:38] Laura Camien: Yeah. They were busted. Um, and yeah, sometimes you don't want to be called out on it.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: Um, but instead, I was told I was just too sensitive.

[7:50] Laura Camien: So it wasn't until I got into theater and acting in particular that my sensitivity was praised and I got called out for it in a good way.

[8:00] Susan Blackwell: And I think that's why I felt like this is my home and these are my people, you know, just to be among others.

[8:08] Laura Camien: You know, in a place where being able to pick up on the slightest change in like a facial expression, a vocal change, a shift in body language.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: These are all good things when you're in a scene with somebody, not necessarily a gift in real life.

[8:27] Laura Camien: Yeah. Right. Um, but later in life, I learned that there was a name or names for the things that I experienced and these superpowers that I had.

[8:39] Susan Blackwell: I mean, now I think of them as superpowers, but if you had asked me when I was younger, I thought it was like an affliction.

[8:45] Laura Camien: I definitely tried and tried to change myself to try to be different than I was, but to no avail.

[8:54] Susan Blackwell: How did you can I just ask you? Sorry to interrupt you.

[8:57] Laura Camien: But ask me.

[8:57] Susan Blackwell: Did you try to change your sensitivity? How would you do that?

[9:00] Laura Camien: Literally, like try not to notice. So that that could show up more like, okay, I'm not gonna notice that, you know, obviously there's something going on in this room.

[9:13] Susan Blackwell: So you know, tap dance and smile, and hey, we're all fine.

[9:17] Laura Camien: You're acting like, you know, if you're gonna act like we're fine, I'll act like we're fine. But it is nothing is fine.

[9:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, nothing in the house is fine.

[9:25] Laura Camien: Yeah. Um, so try to, you know, try to go along with it. Try to um if I did notice it, try not to say anything.

[9:35] Susan Blackwell: But you know me, Suze. I don't have a poker face.

[9:36] Laura Camien: You have no poker face.

[9:40] Susan Blackwell: See something, I say something.

[9:43] Laura Camien: Yeah. I mean, I could have been the poster child for that. See something, say something, because it's a compulsion of like, wait a minute, what was that?

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: I saw a shadow across your face.

[9:52] Laura Camien: Yeah. What, you know, tell me about what just happened. And yeah.

[9:56] Susan Blackwell: Nathan has the same thing.

[9:58] Laura Camien: Both of you have this, and I will just think.

[10:02] Susan Blackwell: And you know, we know this from our on-camera acting. You think a thought, and it's like a little fishy just swims across a little fishy thought swims across your face.

[10:10] Laura Camien: And which is great, like you said, it's great, especially for on camera work. But you and Nathan, I sometimes surprise me when you say what just happened.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: What did you just think? And sometimes it's it's so um unrelated and yeah, so inconsequential that it could be interpreted as something um like there's tension, but actually it's not.

[10:38] Laura Camien: I'm thinking about that. I have to go to the bathroom, something like that.

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: But um, but you both also are so perceptive, sensitive, if you will, that sometimes you help me to identify when you'll catch me before the the little thought fishy can swim away.

[10:58] Laura Camien: You'll catch me and I'll go, oh, you know what it was. I think it's the source of my anxiety today.

[11:05] Susan Blackwell: And that is that I feel blow. You know what I mean?

[11:08] Laura Camien: Exactly. So it's um sometimes it's it's inconsequential and sometimes it's consequential.

[11:15] Susan Blackwell: And what is a really a gift um as a sensitive person is to have relationships now where I can just ask that question, hey, hey, what was that?

[11:26] Laura Camien: Because I know I'm not imagining something just happened, but I'm also open to the possibility of like, oh, I just remembered I had to take the trash out, and I don't think I did it this morning.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, oh my shoes on and do it.

[11:39] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yeah, it didn't have anything to do, you know, like it doesn't mean like jumping to a conclusion that it has something to like some sort of negative connotation, but just that something took place.

[11:51] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Um, it's so interesting to me that Nathan has that too.

[11:54] Laura Camien: So you sure all day long.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: All around me. It doesn't happen, it doesn't happen all the time, but it does it happens, you know, on occasion with both of you.

[12:06] Laura Camien: And even over Zoom, it totally happens.

[12:08] Susan Blackwell: You and I see stuff over Zoom.

[12:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, for sure. I can tell for sure.

[12:13] Susan Blackwell: Come on to a Zoom call, I can tell like what kind of day you're having.

[12:18] Laura Camien: Because we don't have a poker face.

[12:20] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, it's good. I can't do it.

[12:23] Laura Camien: I had one for a long time. I gave it up.

[12:25] Susan Blackwell: And that's exhausting.

[12:27] Laura Camien: It's exhausting. It's too tiring.

[12:29] Susan Blackwell: So, Suze, a few weeks ago, no fewer than three people in my life forwarded me an article that they said you have to read this.

[12:38] Laura Camien: Holy shit.

[12:39] Susan Blackwell: I know. You know, when you get something, you're like, oh, I'm so grateful.

[12:43] Laura Camien: Oh my God. So grateful.

[12:44] Susan Blackwell: So the article written by Linda Moon was in Wellbeing magazine.

[12:50] Laura Camien: And it was called The Secret Superpowers of Highly Sensitive People.

[12:55] Susan Blackwell: Everybody's reading Wellbeing Magazine.

[12:57] Laura Camien: Everybody's reading Wellbeing.

[12:59] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Sorry to I think in the Apple news feed.

[13:02] Laura Camien: Got it. You know what I haven't got it?

[13:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:18] Laura Camien: So I think the moment I saw it, like my shoulders dropped like six inches. It was like, ugh, it's just that a reminder that I need every so often. I started to think about the number of clients that we have who also have felt like there might have been something wrong with them because of how sensitive they are. And I thought, I have to share this information for others who might need it. So we are diving into it today, Suze.

[13:45] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[13:46] Laura Camien: Nice. Let's do it.

[13:47] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So the article in well-being starts with this. Do you feel deeply affected by the suffering of others or pick up easily on vibes around you? Maybe you avoid negative social media and news because of the way it affects you. What makes one person more sensitive than others? And what problems or potential advantages might we face if we're one of the more sensitive crowd? Dr. Judith Orliff, a US based psychiatrist and author of The Empath Survival Guide, has spent decades investigating these types of questions.

[14:25] Laura Camien: It was a search that grew out of her own experience. As a child, Orlof felt that there was something wrong with her. She says, I was criticized for being overly sensitive and told to get a thicker skin. Crowded places like shopping malls with their noise and overstimulation exhausted her. They also caused anxiety, depression, aches, and pains.

[15:09] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[15:09] Laura Camien: I want to build an intuition lab.

[15:11] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[15:12] Laura Camien: I don't know. More investigation. I need to look into that. But Moss was the first adult to frame Orloff's sensitivity as a positive ability. She told me I was an intuitive empath. Orloff recalls. It felt liberating to know there wasn't something wrong with me, and I had nothing to be ashamed about. A whole new exciting world opens up when empaths discover who and what they are and can begin to embrace themselves.

[15:41] Susan Blackwell: That is really the goal, isn't it? I mean, to come to a deeper understanding about who we are and why we are, so we can learn how to navigate the world and enjoy our time on this earth, right?

[15:55] Laura Camien: So, something I found interesting is there's apparently a movement afoot, the empaths and sensitives movement, as it's being called, according to the author, Linda Moon. And this movement outlines various types of sensitives. HSPs, which are highly sensitive people, energy absorbers, empaths, intuitives, and psychics.

[16:21] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Dr. Orlov says highly sensitive people and empaths. Those are the two I'm going to focus on for this spark, by the way. She says highly sensitive people and empaths are not the same thing. They can be related, and people often interchange the terms, but they are different.

[16:44] Laura Camien: Okay. According to the article, sensitive people have an increased reaction to external stimuli, including emotions. Whereas empaths have a greater than usual capacity to share another's feelings, but from their own framework. So research suggests that most of us, even psychopaths, have the capacity for empathy. Orloff describes it as a spectrum with each of us sitting like at different levels. There's the middle of the spectrum, which is the regular person.

[17:20] Susan Blackwell: Although I actually kind of am like, well, is there any regular person?

[17:24] Laura Camien: Well, but okay. So middle, middle of the spectrum, a person who has empathy, where their heart goes out for other people in pain or in joy. A little bit up the spectrum are the highly sensitive people. And then you have even higher on the spectrum, the empath.

[17:44] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[17:45] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[17:46] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Like empath is the kind of the furthest on this particular spectrum.

[17:52] Laura Camien: Okay. And I suppose the narcissist or psychopath might be on the opposite end of the spectrum where they have very little capacity for empathy.

[18:04] Susan Blackwell: Okay. You see what I mean?

[18:06] Laura Camien: So uh-huh. So charting it out.

[18:09] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[18:09] Laura Camien: I'm over here charting it out.

[18:11] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great. Um we'll be sure and post Susan's chart when we when we finish. It looks like it post-it with a legible chicken scratches on it.

[18:21] Laura Camien: So enjoy that.

[18:22] Susan Blackwell: That's great.

[18:24] Laura Camien: So HSPs are highly sensitive to all the sensory elements of the environment, including light, sound, and other sources of stimulation, Orlof says. She says empaths possess all of that plus a high level of intuition. They tend to be sponges who take the energy of others into their own body. Orloff says it's possible and it's common to be both an empath and an HSP, but not all HSPs are empaths.

[18:56] Susan Blackwell: Got it.

[18:57] Laura Camien: Because the empath has that, they're they're further along on that dyad, and they have that higher level of intuition.

[19:54] Laura Camien: In 1997, Erin developed the highly sensitive person scale, which is a diagnostic criterion for determining HSPs.

[19:54] Susan Blackwell: That's right. They have all of this sensitivity plus plus plus.

[19:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:54] Susan Blackwell: Got it.

[19:54] Laura Camien: Okay. Yep. So the article pointed me towards a groundbreaking documentary from 2015 called Sensitive, The Untold Story, which was inspired.

[19:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:54] Laura Camien: How did you know this? How does this pass us by, right? Where did it be? Where were we in 2015?

[19:54] Susan Blackwell: What were we doing?

[19:54] Laura Camien: So that documentary was inspired by clinical research psychologist Elaine Aaron. Erin has been studying high sensitivity since 1991. She claims about 20% of humans possess a measurable trait related to a higher level of sensitivity and responsiveness to stimuli, both environmental and social.

[19:54] Susan Blackwell: Huh.

[20:03] Susan Blackwell: Huh.

[20:04] Laura Camien: Some of the things it measures are the ability to quickly discern differences in smell, sound, texture, color, and other sensations. And I thought this was interesting. It also measures a person's tendency to observe before acting.

[20:21] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, that was fascinating to me because I've always categorized that tendency in myself as like I learn by observing or I learn by watching. That's just how I do.

[20:38] Laura Camien: Now show me, show me one more time.

[20:40] Susan Blackwell: Okay, I've got it. Like I have always just thought I observe a situation and then I step into it. It never occurred to me that that trait might be related to my high sensitivity.

[20:54] Laura Camien: Uh huh.

[20:55] Susan Blackwell: No idea.

[20:57] Laura Camien: So I checked out this documentary called Sensitive, The Untold Story by Will Harper. First of all, I was surprised and kind of intrigued to see that Elena's Morissette was in it.

[21:07] Susan Blackwell: I do love that.

[21:08] Laura Camien: Is she is she a highly sensitive person?

[21:10] Susan Blackwell: She is.

[21:11] Laura Camien: And she talks about how most of her life she felt like something was wrong with her. She was misunderstood, misperceived. But this isn't about Alanis, it's about Elaine Aaron. So I kept myself focused on that, even though I want to know more about Alanis.

[21:28] Susan Blackwell: Well, I do want to just note that I think it's interesting. When you talk about a highly sensitive person, the place where my mind goes is emotional sensitivity.

[21:38] Laura Camien: But what they're talking about is sensitive, all the senses.

[21:42] Susan Blackwell: They're talking about visual senses, sound, touch. They're talking about all of it in addition to emotion.

[21:50] Laura Camien: Okay.

[21:51] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[21:52] Laura Camien: Got it.

[21:53] Susan Blackwell: Yep. So Elaine Aaron is credited for discovering or naming high sensitivity, which is not a mental disorder.

[22:02] Laura Camien: Like what did they call that? Like a psychiatric term.

[22:08] Susan Blackwell: It's a trait.

[22:09] Laura Camien: And it's found in equal numbers across genders. She really pioneered the clinical world and the this clinical studies in terms of high sensitivity. She says she studied Carl Young and introversion because originally she thought that high sensitivity and introversion might be related.

[22:30] Susan Blackwell: But she found that over 30% of highly sensitive people are extroverts.

[22:36] Laura Camien: So she realized, nope, that's like too high of a percentage. It can't be the same thing. Not that they can't be related, but they're not exactly the same thing.

[22:45] Susan Blackwell: I have to say, I would have made the same assumption.

[22:47] Laura Camien: Right?

[22:48] Susan Blackwell: Right?

[22:49] Laura Camien: Yeah. Well, I think that because of our high sensitivity, we may make certain choices uh that look like introversion.

[23:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[23:01] Laura Camien: Do you know what I mean?

[23:03] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[23:03] Laura Camien: Right. Absolutely.

[23:05] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, Elaine Aaron has done like a shit ton of research on this. According to wellbeing, she and her colleagues in a first of its kind study in 2014 found the brains of people with high HSP scores have increased activation in the regions involved in attention, action planning, awareness, integrating sensory information, and empathy.

[23:34] Laura Camien: It confirms what sensitive people have long suspected. They're really not like everyone else.

[23:40] Susan Blackwell: Like their brains are not like everyone else.

[23:43] Laura Camien: She believes the brains of sensitives have a heightened response to how they process sensory information. She and her colleagues propose this enhanced ability to process sensory information evolved to help in the survival of the species.

[24:00] Susan Blackwell: Because interestingly, Suze, a certain percentage of animals, it can be found in animals as well.

[24:06] Laura Camien: I think my dog is highly sensitive.

[24:09] Susan Blackwell: It's very possible.

[24:11] Laura Camien: I do. I really do.

[24:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:13] Laura Camien: It's very possible. And if you think about it, like what they're saying is like it evolved to help the survival of the species, so that, you know, at least some people in the group, a small percentage of people in the group would have an increased ability to sense and respond to potential dangers, threats, and opportunities in the environment, which in turn benefits everyone and makes the whole group safer.

[24:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:42] Laura Camien: Right. I mean, if you think about packs of animals. Um, and you, you know, there's if you watch them, like one will sense a danger before others, and then everybody's like, what?

[24:54] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[24:54] Laura Camien: What'd you hear? What'd you smell? You know.

[24:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I thought that was really interesting. Signs that you may be highly sensitive include avoiding violent TV shows, feeling easily overwhelmed, strongly affected by hunger, deeply moved by music or art, due to the fact that highly sensitive people notice everything around them.

[25:21] Laura Camien: Now, according to well-being, the downside of being highly sensitive includes the fact that increased sensitivity places greater mental and metabolic demands upon such individuals.

[25:36] Susan Blackwell: While generally viewed as an adaptive trait, being overly empathetic or highly sensitive can have a dark side for the host.

[25:44] Laura Camien: Many HSPs suffer from empathetic overload related to absorbing excess energy from their environment and other people and carrying it as if it's their own, Dr. Orloff said. Symptoms include exhaustion and sensory overload. Common health issues related to empathetic overload include adrenal fatigue, anxiety, depression, panic disorder, chronic fatigue, weight problems, and insomnia, she said.

[26:21] Susan Blackwell: Again, from the well-being article, research suggests that those who are more sensitive to others' emotions may be more prone to depression. A study by psychologists at Queen University Queen's University in Canada found depressed people were significantly better than non-depressed people at correctly judging the emotions of people from pictures.

[26:43] Laura Camien: Which is really, it's just as really interesting.

[26:47] Susan Blackwell: So, what is the difference between a highly sensitive person and an empath? And how do you know if you're one or both of them? In an article in Psychology Today, Dr. Orloff explains empaths share the traits of what Dr. Aaron has called highly sensitive people, or HSPs. Those include low threshold for stimulation, the need for alone time, sensitivity to light, sound and smell, and an aversion to large groups. It also takes highly sensitive people longer to wind down after a busy day, since their ability to transition from high stimulation to being quiet is slower. Highly sensitive people are typically introverts, while empaths can be introverts or extroverts. Although most are introverts, but they can be extroverts.

Empaths share a highly sensitive person's love of nature and quiet environments, their desire to help others, and a rich inner life. However, Dr. Orloff goes on to say, empaths take the experience of the highly sensitive person much farther. Empaths can sense subtle energy called Shakti or Prana in Eastern traditions, and actually absorb it from other people and different environments into their own bodies. Highly sensitive people don't typically do that. This capacity allows empaths to experience the energy around them, including emotions and physical sensations in extremely deep ways. And so we energetically internalize the feelings and pain of others and often have trouble distinguishing someone else's discomfort from our own.

[28:33] Laura Camien: Seuss, this like this like totally got me. Can I ask you? And I don't want to jump your spark.

[28:41] Susan Blackwell: No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you like that's I recognize myself in that?

[28:46] Laura Camien: 100%, 100%. I have to actively work to not pick up someone's energy, especially if they have a strong energy, if they are um angry, you know, and you can feel it, you know, when you can feel like vibrations coming off of someone, um it's it's really hard. I can't, um, and I always thought that had to do with my family, like growing up, but that's how it felt in my house of like uh if someone was distraught, um, angry, upset, crying, any like I couldn't like I almost couldn't um I can't have I don't have the words. It's like I couldn't handle it. I didn't know what I don't know what to do with myself because I can't fix it. I know consciously it's not mine, but I feel it in my body. And I'm like, so I have to resolve something.

But like you were saying, you feel it in your body. If that, if you're empathic and therefore kind of porous in a way, and that shakti is making its way into you, what do you do with that? Especially, I mean, I'm sure there are ways of dealing with that. And I have some thoughts about this as an adult, but when you're a little kid, it's just so confusing.

[30:11] Susan Blackwell: So confusing, so confusing. And learning to like extricate someone else's energy from my own energy and figure out what is mine and what is theirs.

[30:29] Laura Camien: Yeah. How do I forget about?

[30:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna get into that a little bit more. But yeah, all of that really got me because I am an energy sponge, I think.

[30:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm highly attuned to the energy that people bring into a space. And I do, I think I'm getting to where I have the power to override it typically. But I cannot avoid seeing it and feeling it.

[30:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, I have a keen awareness of it. And if someone I love is in pain, I mean, forget about it. I can't. I I almost can't handle it. It's as if I'm feeling the pain myself, physical or emotional, and I don't know what to do with myself.

[31:13] Susan Blackwell: Wow. Now you know, it's like again, greater separation. If I'm in a room and I see that someone is upset, but it isn't someone I know, and it isn't, you know. I used to have this such intense, like if I was at a party or a gathering of any kind, someone's upset, someone's not having a good time. Like I would feel that, and I would feel like I have to do something about it. Like I've got to like correct this or fix this.

[31:41] Laura Camien: Susan, did you happen to listen to Celia Keenan-Bolger has a podcast called Sunday Pancakes, which we both love.

[31:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes, she does. Hi, Celia. And she recently interviewed Laura Benanti and Laura Benanti described this exact thing. How at party social gathering, she historically would have be like that is the saddest person in the room.

[32:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:08] Susan Blackwell: And then feel like she had to take care of it.

[32:11] Laura Camien: Yes.

[32:12] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes. She described her textbook description exactly what you just said to me.

[32:18] Laura Camien: That is crazy.

[32:20] Susan Blackwell: That's crazy. We need to send her this article.

[32:22] Laura Camien: That's right.

[32:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Let's do that.

[32:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:25] Susan Blackwell: I had to train myself that it's not always my responsibility to even if I sense it and feel it. It doesn't mean I have to act on it or do something. It may not be my job. And it may not even be possible for me to fix.

[32:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:42] Susan Blackwell: But I used to just be like, um, oh my God, now this is all coming back to me. My family would make fun of me because they thought it was all motivated by my need to like have everyone love me. But I would, let's say we're walking the halls. I don't know about your middle school and high school, but in ours, we would, you know, before classes start, there was like a rotation. You'd just walk the halls and see people and say hi to people, but sort of like walk in in movement, in motion. Uh-huh. I don't know why. That's what we did. But I could see someone who was not happy for some reason. Now that could get me spiraling into like, are they not happy because of me? And that I think is something else.

[33:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But I would spin on it all day long. And it wouldn't have to be a close friend. It's not, it wouldn't have to be like Susan Blackwell. Well, I saw Susan and she didn't look happy this morning. It could be someone like that I know only peripherally. And like that guy Brian, he was in my science class last year. He really, wow, he's not doing great. And I would like to think about it all day. And wow. Then like make a point to like see him. And like the next time I see him, is he smiling? I I'm it honestly, these are the things that made me think I was nuts, a little crazy.

[34:10] Laura Camien: Wow.

[34:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But now it all makes sense. It all makes sense. So I think now as artists, I think being a highly sensitive person is such a gift. I mean, ooh, I think it's important to acknowledge that like in the real world, it doesn't always feel that way. It can be exhausting and painful, and you can get criticism and eye rolls. But I think it is an extraordinary gift. I wouldn't, I wouldn't give it up now. But it definitely helps to like understand it. You know, another big thing for me is I can only take sound from one source at a time. I will almost lose my mind if the TV is on, and then Wes plays a video on his phone. Both really sound. And I'll be like, mm-mm, babe. And he's like, got it. You know, we have to turn one off.

[35:08] Laura Camien: Huh?

[35:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think yeah, I thought you said um Sweet Baby Nathan had something like that too about sound.

[35:14] Laura Camien: Well, he's very sound sensitive. Like very, very sound sensitive. And he has all sorts of rules around sound that he can't like if it's going, it would ruin his fill in the blank dinner, sleep, drive. If we're in the car, for instance, and say there's something in the back. We've just gotten groceries, and there's something in the back, and there's two things that are just gently like maybe two bottles that are just really gently like tinking against each other, and he will pull the car over, identify what the thing is, and change it because he's like, I can't drive all the way home with that sound.

[35:58] Susan Blackwell: I just want to hug him. I knew I loved him. It just makes me want to needle him. And I'm just like, oh, so being so sensitive. Let's see. Let's now you know. Now it's a really where his Achilles heel is, and I can really dig in. Just kidding. We don't, we don't have that relationship.

[36:18] Laura Camien: So on the other end of the spectrum is Susan Blackwell, right?

[36:22] Susan Blackwell: Over here sociopath. I do think he's incredibly empathic. But I don't know if he is just a highly sensitive person, not just, but I don't know if he would be categorized as a highly sensitive person and an empath or simply a highly sensitive person.

[36:42] Laura Camien: Guess what?

[36:43] Susan Blackwell: What?

[36:43] Laura Camien: We're gonna find out, at least for you, and then you can forward this on to him.

[36:48] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great. How do we know if we're a highly sensitive person or an empath or both? If this conversation resonated with you at all, you might already know the answer, but just to be sure, I'm also having another real-time realization.

[37:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:04] Susan Blackwell: I believe that my father is also, just based on some of the things that you said, at least a highly sensitive person. I'm not sure about the empath piece, but he, I remember him saying to me one time, he, and I may have said this on this podcast. He said, You know that movie Beverly Hills Cop? And I said, sure. And he said, Do you realize that somebody gets shot in that movie? I can't watch that movie because somebody gets shot. And I was like, I barely remember that. But seeing somebody, even a comedy where somebody there's physical violence and a he can't take it. I have a touch of that as well. But I think he is a highly sensitive person, and isn't it interesting, my father and my husband. And his partner and my partner, all the people that are uh I suspect you've got a few around you, and you may even be one. I think um it's time that we find out.

[38:02] Laura Camien: Let's find out.

[38:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so we're gonna take two tests. If you're at home and you want to participate, all you need is a little piece of paper, something to write with, or open the write off section on your phone. Like you can do it as well. We're just gonna keep track of little ticks. So we're gonna start with Dr. Aaron's test for high sensitivity. I'm gonna read a statement, and all you need to do is make a little check mark when the statement is at least somewhat true for you.

[38:29] Laura Camien: Okay.

[38:29] Susan Blackwell: Okay, it just needs to be somewhat true. So at the end, we're gonna tally the number of check marks that you have.

[38:35] Laura Camien: Okay.

[38:35] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great. So do not add a check mark if the statement is not very true or not true at all. Okay, so just somewhat true. Here we go. I am easily overwhelmed by a strong sensory input.

[38:53] Laura Camien: I seem to be aware of subtleties in my environment.

[39:00] Susan Blackwell: Other people's moods affect me.

[39:05] Laura Camien: I tend to be very sensitive to pain.

[39:25] Susan Blackwell: I am particularly sensitive to the effects of caffeine.

[39:31] Laura Camien: I am easily overwhelmed by things like bright lights, strong smells, coarse fabrics, or sirens close by.

[40:17] Susan Blackwell: I get rattled when I have a lot to do in a short amount of time.

[40:23] Susan Blackwell: When people are uncomfortable in a physical environment, I tend to know what needs to be done to make it more comfortable, like changing the lighting or the seating.

[40:36] Susan Blackwell: I am annoyed when people try to get me to do too many things at once.

[40:43] Susan Blackwell: I try hard to avoid making mistakes or forgetting things.

[41:03] Susan Blackwell: Being very hungry creates a strong reaction in me, disrupting my concentration or mood.

[41:13] Susan Blackwell: Changes in my life shake me up.

[42:00] Susan Blackwell: Than I would otherwise.

[42:04] Susan Blackwell: When I was a child, my parents or teachers seemed to see me as sensitive or shy.

[42:14] Laura Camien: Okay, Suze.

[42:16] Laura Camien: Let's tally your check marks.

[42:20] Laura Camien: How many do you have?

[42:22] Susan Blackwell: 19.

[42:24] Laura Camien: Okay.

[42:26] Laura Camien: According to Dr. Elaine Aaron, if you answered more than 14 of the questions as true of yourself, you are probably highly sensitive.

[42:40] Susan Blackwell: I was also half taking the quiz on Nathan's behalf because some of those were spot on.

[42:47] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[42:49] Laura Camien: Spot on.

[42:50] Laura Camien: Spot on.

[42:51] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[42:51] Susan Blackwell: There's only a few.

[42:53] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I got 24.

[42:56] Susan Blackwell: As you have been talking about this, I was like, I don't know that I'm highly sensitive, but I think that Laura is like way over there on the scale.

[43:05] Susan Blackwell: Way.

[43:05] Susan Blackwell: So I'm not surprised.

[43:07] Susan Blackwell: Because some of those I was like, I mean, I guess I could argue for it.

[43:11] Susan Blackwell: The other thing that I kept thinking is, I feel like I have tried to shape a life where I manage this.

[43:19] Susan Blackwell: So I'm not sure if left to my own devices, like if I didn't meditate for an hour a day.

[43:24] Laura Camien: That's right.

[43:26] Susan Blackwell: I might have answered more.

[43:29] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[43:30] Susan Blackwell: Because I think about you, and I'm like, well, the need to meet to meditate or the choice to meditate, like, did it come from this sense of awareness of like, wow, I need this still time away from stimulus, and you do it twice a day.

[43:48] Susan Blackwell: You also sort of construct your life to not have to live out of drama.

[43:54] Laura Camien: That's right.

[43:56] Laura Camien: Not have a lot of drama, not have you're just not having you're I'm not sure.

[44:01] Laura Camien: In a room, Suze, I've seen you.

[44:04] Laura Camien: If there does seem to be like um, you know, competing uh stimuli, uh, you will get control of that shit quickly.

[44:15] Laura Camien: You really will.

[44:16] Laura Camien: And I think like I do wonder if oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[44:20] Laura Camien: And I mean that in the most positive way.

[44:22] Laura Camien: You'll just I'm just trying to think of it.

[44:24] Laura Camien: And we're gonna organize this.

[44:26] Laura Camien: Uh multiple conversations going on at once.

[44:29] Laura Camien: Some people over here don't seem to know what they're doing.

[44:32] Laura Camien: Yeah boom, boom, boom.

[44:34] Laura Camien: You've got this.

[44:35] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[44:35] Laura Camien: Yeah, you are amazing at it.

[44:37] Laura Camien: So I do wonder to your to your point about like is it because you have so uh just astoundingly knowledge it?

[44:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[44:51] Susan Blackwell: But 24, Laura.

[44:53] Susan Blackwell: 24 that that's well over 14.

[44:55] Laura Camien: You're well over 14.

[44:57] Laura Camien: Okay.

[44:58] Laura Camien: Well into it.

[44:58] Laura Camien: The only thing like that that trips me up is this, I tend to be very sensitive to pain.

[45:04] Susan Blackwell: What's interesting is that I have a really high pain tolerance, I think, and pain threshold personally.

[45:12] Susan Blackwell: But if I do see someone else in pain, like I will have that sensation of you just said you can barely handle it just because it you're you're a spongy little sponge.

[45:12] Laura Camien: Spongy little sponge.

[45:25] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[45:26] Susan Blackwell: So I think that you definitely, Nathan, and and very probably you, I think, are both highly sensitive people to some degree.

[45:37] Susan Blackwell: But are you an empath?

[45:39] Laura Camien: That is the next question.

[45:41] Laura Camien: Now, I would this is my prediction.

[45:43] Laura Camien: Yeah, you are, I am not.

[45:46] Laura Camien: That is my prediction.

[45:47] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[45:47] Laura Camien: Okay.

[45:48] Laura Camien: Okay.

[45:48] Laura Camien: Let's let's do it.

[45:50] Laura Camien: And honestly, and also I'd love to hear from people, our listeners.

[45:53] Laura Camien: Like if you make any some discoveries, please write us.

[45:56] Laura Camien: Please tell us what you send us your SERTA sleep number of sensitivity.

[46:00] Susan Blackwell: Like you would know.

[46:01] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[46:02] Laura Camien: Yes.

[46:02] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[46:02] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[46:03] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so slightly different.

[46:05] Susan Blackwell: Uh, empaths and and highly sensitive people.

[46:09] Susan Blackwell: Not all highly sensitive people are empaths, so I'll go quickly on this one.

[46:13] Susan Blackwell: This test was developed by Dr. Orloff and can be found on her website, Dr. Judith Orloff.com.

[46:20] Susan Blackwell: Again, just mark a check mark if the answer is yes to the question.

[46:26] Laura Camien: Okay.

[46:26] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[46:27] Susan Blackwell: There are 20 questions.

[46:29] Susan Blackwell: So give yourself a check mark if the answer is yes.

[46:33] Susan Blackwell: Have I been labeled as overly sensitive, shy, or introverted?

[46:40] Susan Blackwell: Do I frequently get overwhelmed or anxious?

[46:46] Susan Blackwell: Do arguments or yelling make me ill?

[46:52] Susan Blackwell: Do I often feel like I don't fit in?

[46:58] Susan Blackwell: Am I drained by crowds and need alone time to revive myself?

[47:05] Susan Blackwell: Am I overstimulated by noise, odors, or nonstop talkers?

[47:13] Susan Blackwell: Do I have chemical sensitivities or can't tolerate scratchy clothes?

[47:21] Susan Blackwell: Do I prefer taking my own car places so I can leave early if I need to?

[47:29] Laura Camien: That's so specific and genius.

[47:33] Susan Blackwell: Do I overeat to cope with stress?

[47:38] Susan Blackwell: Am I afraid of becoming suffocated by intimate relationships?

[47:45] Susan Blackwell: Do I startle easily?

[47:51] Susan Blackwell: Do I react strongly to caffeine or medications?

[47:57] Susan Blackwell: Do I have a low pain threshold?

[48:02] Susan Blackwell: Do I tend to socially isolate?

[48:07] Susan Blackwell: Do I absorb other people's stress, emotions, or symptoms?

[48:14] Susan Blackwell: Am I overwhelmed by multitasking and prefer doing one thing at a time?

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: Do I replenish myself in nature?

[48:26] Susan Blackwell: Do I need a long time to recuperate after being with difficult people or energy vampires?

[48:34] Susan Blackwell: Do I feel better in small cities or the country than large cities?

[48:43] Susan Blackwell: Do I prefer one to one interactions or small groups rather than large gatherings?

[48:52] Susan Blackwell: And that's it.

[48:53] Susan Blackwell: Let's tally it up.

[48:55] Laura Camien: Okay.

[48:56] Laura Camien: Again, I was sidebar taking this for Nathan.

[49:00] Laura Camien: One for Nathan, one for you.

[49:02] Laura Camien: But but I'll let him, I'll let him cough up his own numbers.

[49:06] Susan Blackwell: I got twelve.

[49:09] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[49:10] Laura Camien: Okay.

[49:10] Laura Camien: So here's our scale here.

[49:13] Laura Camien: If you answered yes to one to five questions, you're at least partially an empath.

[49:20] Laura Camien: Huh.

[49:21] Laura Camien: Responding yes to six to 10 questions means you have moderate empathic tendencies.

[49:30] Laura Camien: Responding yes to 11 to 15 means you have strong empathic tendencies.

[49:38] Laura Camien: Huh.

[49:39] Laura Camien: And answering yes to more than 15 questions means you are a full-blown empath.

[49:45] Susan Blackwell: Let me guess how many you're full blown.

[49:49] Laura Camien: You've got full blown empathy.

[49:51] Susan Blackwell: Full blown, full blown.

[49:53] Laura Camien: I but I answered 15.

[49:55] Laura Camien: So I could say either strong empathic or full blown.

[49:59] Laura Camien: But that like the specificity of that question about does what was the one about does something.

[50:05] Susan Blackwell: Oh, but no, what does that bring your own car?

[50:07] Laura Camien: But what makes you sick?

[50:09] Laura Camien: Like it makes you ill.

[50:11] Laura Camien: Arguing with the people yelling.

[50:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:13] Laura Camien: Makes you ill.

[50:14] Susan Blackwell: Now think about you as a kid.

[50:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[50:17] Laura Camien: And think about how.

[50:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[50:20] Susan Blackwell: I just like that not in my stomach.

[50:23] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:24] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, this is this is amazing.

[50:26] Susan Blackwell: And I'm actually surprised.

[50:29] Susan Blackwell: And I wonder if I was asked this before I started meditating and moved to the side of a mountain, if my answers would be different.

[50:40] Laura Camien: Because I do think I have managed my life in a sort of way to make it as as livable and as enjoyable as possible for myself.

[50:50] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[50:52] Susan Blackwell: I mean, because I wondered how you answered the question, do I socially isolate?

[50:56] Laura Camien: Because I think, you know, many of us know you as someone who's very gregarious, very social, can talk to anyone, but you live on the side of a mountain.

[51:04] Susan Blackwell: So one might say, well, you isolated yourself to a certain degree to start.

[51:11] Laura Camien: And then as long as you have that, and maybe that is part of like as long as I know that at the end of the day, I'm returning to that.

[51:18] Susan Blackwell: I'm returning to this place.

[51:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think it's really interesting, Seuss.

[51:23] Laura Camien: I do too.

[51:25] Laura Camien: So, what do we make of all of this?

[51:27] Susan Blackwell: What do we make of it?

[51:29] Laura Camien: Well, Suze, there's many, many, many, many articles being written about this specific moment in time about the importance of empathy.

[51:37] Laura Camien: Because empathy is the ability to connect with others, to feel with them, to act with compassion.

[51:44] Laura Camien: And there are many people who are concerned that we've seen an alarming lack of empathy in the world in the past few years.

[51:52] Laura Camien: Empathy is critical if we're going to work together and get along as human beings and to thrive as a society.

[52:01] Susan Blackwell: So there's that.

[52:02] Laura Camien: There's that.

[52:03] Laura Camien: We could do a whole other spark of just the importance of empathy now that we have an understanding of what it is.

[52:08] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[52:09] Laura Camien: But I also think that to me, what we make of it, if we are highly sensitive people or empaths, we freaking own it, just loud and proud.

[52:21] Susan Blackwell: Quiet and proud.

[52:22] Laura Camien: Just quietly and proud.

[52:24] Susan Blackwell: I'm I'm boldly and proudly saying I'm an empath.

[52:28] Laura Camien: Um, Maria Popova writes in her online journal, Brain Pickings, which I know you love.

[52:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[52:35] Laura Camien: We make art with everything we are, the doom and the glory of it.

[52:40] Laura Camien: We make art to know ourselves, to locate ourselves in the web of being, to make ourselves more alive.

[52:47] Laura Camien: We make art that at its best helps other people locate themselves and live.

[52:53] Susan Blackwell: And I think as creatives, feeling, emoting, expressing ourselves is essential to our creativity, and highly sensitive people can really lead the way there.

[53:05] Susan Blackwell: There's no shame in feeling our feelings. We can take it in and appreciate art and music and all kinds of creativity because we feel things so deeply. Let us embrace it. Love it. Embrace it above all. There are some creative roadblocks that can be specific to highly sensitive people. And this being a podcast about creativity, I think it's important that we mention if you're creative, that you should be aware of them and learn to manage them. For example, because we're always picking up on other people's energy, it can be hard to discern what energy is ours and what is not ours to carry.

[53:46] Laura Camien: Yes, as you were saying.

[53:48] Susan Blackwell: So sometimes we can get confused about which voice in our head is intuition, which is fear, which is someone else's voice entirely. So it can be feelings scramble.

[54:00] Laura Camien: That's right. It's like, oh wait, this isn't my feeling. This is someone else's feeling.

[54:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So the website creativecatrina.com, which I really liked, by the way, says meditation, quiet time, regular brainstorming time, or creative playtime, walks in nature, doing some grounding exercises, all of those things can help. A combination of these things done consistently helps craft a baseline for knowing what goes where more quickly and easily over time. So it can really help us to like sort, sort all of those feelings and stimuli coming at us.

[54:39] Laura Camien: Another roadblock for creative empaths is other people's feelings. Because we feel their feelings, we are prone to putting them ahead of our own. And we may feel guilty if we put ourselves first. We may feel bad when we say no to a social invite because we wanted to spend the evening writing. Even if we say no, we don't get any writing done because we spend so much time and energy feeling bad and knowing how they feel and that we cause those feelings. It can get messy.

[55:10] Susan Blackwell: So it's best to keep an eye on that pattern. And again, try not to pick up on other people's feelings and certainly try not to rank them as more important than your own. When you're absorbing so much from others, it can be challenging to know what your actual creative voice sounds like.

[55:36] Laura Camien: Yeah. So understanding your unique voice and noticing when it's being crowded out by a lot of other noise is a big creative roadblock for an empath.

[55:46] Susan Blackwell: That's amazing. Right? So Katrina says, for many years I only wrote for others or edited other people's content instead of writing my own. I had no idea what my voice sounded like. A creative voice is part of our personal identity, our authentic self. When other people's juju has invaded us completely, the empath's creative voice needs to be rediscovered and nurtured bit by bit to come to the surface, whether it's through writing, painting, vlogging, cooking, community building, crafting, what have you, the voice living within needs to be invited to show up and have room to expand. It may not feel natural or safe at first, but it's definitely there. So stick with it.

[56:33] Laura Camien: Wow. Finally, a little bit of self-care and self-awareness goes a long way. If you know you need downtime to recover from big events or noisy places, book that time for yourself. Make it a priority. Take regular social media fasts. Simply avoid news cycles that disturb you or work you up. I find that I, if I read my news rather than watch my news, I stay more calm and centered.

[56:58] Susan Blackwell: Yes. So I made that adjustment. And after years of feeling like there was something wrong with me and that I needed to change something about myself to fit within the world, I now embrace my empathetic nature. I've built a world around it. Suze, I think you've built a world around it. And I can say, like I surround myself with people who accept that I'm an empath and enjoy that quality about me rather than ask me to change it. It simply is a truth about me, a truth that I wholeheartedly embrace. And if it is true for you, dear listeners, if it is true for you, Suze, I hope we're all able to embrace it too.

[57:45] Laura Camien: Good you can use brief. I mean, a few here's something that I'm thinking about is I feel like I need to, maybe someone's already made this infographic, but I feel like I really want to drill down and understand you've unpacked this so beautifully, like the highly sensitive person, that trait, the empathic trait, and then the and then I want to understand how it fits in with introversion. Where they intersect. I heard you say that not all introverts are highly sensitive or empathic. There can be extroverts in there. And I just I just in a desire to understand myself and others, I want to understand what's my mind around all of that.

[58:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So that's what I remember like when I take those tests, I am an extrovert. But yeah. And and you know, I argue about that because I'm like, I don't think so. I don't think so. I have to have this downtime. I have to like recover function.

[58:52] Laura Camien: That could be your empathic nature.

[58:56] Susan Blackwell: That's exactly right. And so that was helpful for me too of like, um, oh, okay. So maybe both of those things can be true. I always joke for anyone who's had the test about like whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. Suze and I took these tests in a business class recently together. And there's several questions about like if you're at a party, um, you know, would you be the one in introducing people to people? Or another question is like if you're at a party, are you sitting in a corner? Are you talking? You are you like the center of a circle telling a story? And I'm like, well, if I'm at the party, I'm introducing people and I'm talking to people, but it this says nothing about what it would take me to go to the party in the first place.

[59:43] Laura Camien: And so I'm like, this is a faulty case.

[59:45] Susan Blackwell: And how much recovery time you would need after the party.

[59:50] Laura Camien: That's right. And was there somebody at the party who was struggling? And so you're you absorb their shakti. Took it home, had to, you know, had to relieve myself of it some way. And if you did drugs at the party, did you have a strong response to the drugs at the party as you would when you're an empath? Like all of it.

[1:00:09] Susan Blackwell: No, I'm all of it. Like it's it's um fascinating.

[1:00:12] Laura Camien: So I'm fascinated by it. And I I don't just want to repeat your spark back to you, but there's so many aspects of it that I am fascinated by. And the the watch points that you shared about how it can be, as you said, it can be incredibly useful for a creative to possess these traits. And it also, there are things to look out for.

[1:00:36] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:00:37] Laura Camien: Yeah. And I think like as we continue to work with clients, I know that we have some clients currently who who are familiar with the concept of highly sensitive person and who identify as such. I think we have others who have um expressed some of those roadblocks that now we might be able to work backwards from to discover is this is this your HSP or empath that's you know, uh causing this.

[1:01:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think this is gonna be a really useful tool.

[1:01:08] Laura Camien: Wow, this is so cool, Laura. This is just amazing. What a good spark.

[1:01:11] Susan Blackwell: Thanks.

[1:01:14] Laura Camien: One HSP slash empath, another I'll take it. Spark.

[1:01:23] Susan Blackwell: Um that was great. That was great. I cannot wait for Natha to take this quiz.

[1:01:27] Laura Camien: Oh, good. I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

[1:01:31] Susan Blackwell: But that's not going to happen now. What's going to happen now?

[1:01:34] Laura Camien: I'm going to spark back at you.

[1:01:36] Susan Blackwell: Love it.

[1:01:38] Laura Camien: I've got this little highly sensitive dog in my lap. Let's see if she wants to cozy up. I do think she is highly sensitive. And we talk about it. It's her, she's hyper vigilant, and it's it's sort of her nature.

[1:01:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. God love her.

[1:01:57] Laura Camien: Um I relate deeply. So this is interesting because there are pieces of what you just shared that I feel like dovetail into what I'm going to share with you.

[1:02:12] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm excited.

[1:02:13] Laura Camien: Yeah. So this spark that I'm going to share with you was originally shared with us by.

[1:02:20] Susan Blackwell: Can you hear Kitty shaking her ears out in the background?

[1:02:23] Laura Camien: That's one of the things that makes her highly sensitive to sound. She has such gigantic ears, she can hear everything on this mountain. But um, this spark was originally shared with us by Celia Keenan-Bolger. Thank you, Celia. Hi, Celia. And the spark that I'm gonna be sparking at you all today is Priya Parker's's book, The Art of Gathering.

[1:02:44] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:02:44] Laura Camien: I actually talked about this book recently when I shared my spark about the power of why. So don't worry if you miss that episode. I'm gonna catch you up and then some. But let's start with the person and the work at the center of this spark, Priya Parker's.

[1:03:01] Susan Blackwell: Priya.

[1:03:02] Laura Camien: Priya Parker's is, I'm Laura. I'm gonna if I I'm gonna say it once and I'm gonna say it 10 times.

[1:03:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:03:09] Laura Camien: Her work and this book are extraordinary. I cannot wait. I've had this book. Here's my little story about this book. I had this book. When I left New York at the beginning of the pandemic, there was only room in my bag for a certain number of books. And I that was one that I was like, do I bring no, yeah, no, yeah, no. And it didn't make it into the bag. Didn't make it. Then we've talked about it 10 times that I'm like lamenting, but it's back in my apartment.

[1:03:39] Susan Blackwell: Well, I'm gonna give you a little overview, but Laura, this book is so rich and it is so jam-packed that I as always, just the tip of the sparkberg over here. But but it is I I love it. If you're anybody who is uh whether you're an event planner, a teacher, a moderator, this book is so useful for so many different kinds of people. A theater maker, like it is you run a meeting. I mean, is it does it address meetings too?

[1:04:10] Laura Camien: Oh, yes, God.

[1:04:11] Susan Blackwell: So let's just get into it.

[1:04:15] Laura Camien: In her book, Priya says that she comes to gatherings and the art of gathering. She's not a chef, she's not an event planner, but she is someone who's trained in group dialogue and conflict resolution. And she spent the last 15, yeah.

[1:04:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:04:31] Laura Camien: For some reason, I had in my mind that she was like an event planner or an event specialist.

[1:04:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but no, no, no.

[1:04:37] Laura Camien: No, she's somebody, she's like a uh a professional facilitator. And she has spent the past 15 years of her life studying, designing, and advising gatherings whose goals were to be transformative for the people involved and the communities that they were trying to affect. So now she's a professional facilitator, and she is trained in shaping group dynamics and collective conversations. And her job as she sees it is to gather the right people in a room and help them to connect for a specific larger purpose.

[1:05:11] Susan Blackwell: So in her book, The Art of Gathering, which I will also say is beautifully art directed. Whoever whoever did that and her website, it is nice. I just want to eat her website with a screen. It's so beautiful.

[1:05:25] Laura Camien: But like a sorbet.

[1:05:27] Susan Blackwell: Like a sobe.

[1:05:28] Laura Camien: Priya defines gathering as any time three or more people come together for a purpose with a beginning, middle, and an end. But the book and Priya's work goes so much deeper.

[1:05:42] Susan Blackwell: Before we dig dig dig dig dig into it, CamS, how do you feel? You just mentioned this, you just mentioned this a little bit in your spark. How do you feel about gatherings in all their forms?

[1:05:52] Laura Camien: So I know this is a wide array, but meetings and parties and networking events and and moderating events and teaching. How do you feel about gatherings?

[1:06:01] Susan Blackwell: Well, as a highly sensitive person.

[1:06:03] Laura Camien: And an empath.

[1:06:04] Susan Blackwell: And an empath, Suze. It's funny that each time you've said come together to gather with purpose. I find myself far more comfortable and willing to attend something if I understand what the purpose is.

[1:06:20] Laura Camien: And what are we doing there? What is happening in this scene is very important to me and helps me wrap my brain around it. And you said recently on a call with a client, you feel better going to a social gathering when there's going to be an activity, like we're going to play cards.

[1:06:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. 100%. Our hands are going to be doing something.

[1:06:43] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:06:44] Susan Blackwell: And then over the top of that, we may talk. We may, you know, that is correct. We may bust bowls, but there's gonna be cards.

[1:06:50] Laura Camien: There's I've seen you play cards, and then happens. A different side of you comes out. It's fascinating.

[1:07:05] Susan Blackwell: It's true. It's true. It's it's the little devil. You're a little devil.

[1:07:05] Laura Camien: It's true. It's true. It's the ballbox.

[1:07:07] Susan Blackwell: That makes sense. That makes sense. What you're saying makes total sense. Can I just shout out? I gotta shout out to a couple of people. We can't have that and me not say hi to Bryn and Casey and Kat and Tim and Scott.

[1:07:18] Laura Camien: I'll just enough said. Cards.

[1:07:20] Susan Blackwell: Set your poker night crew.

[1:07:23] Laura Camien: It's it's worse than that. It's an old, it's an old grandma game that we play, but we play it as though it's like professional poker.

[1:07:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:07:31] Laura Camien: Do you play for money?

[1:07:33] Susan Blackwell: No, but uh you know what I wouldn't mind.

[1:07:36] Laura Camien: I would. I totally do it.

[1:07:38] Susan Blackwell: Hey, hey, hey, hey.

[1:07:39] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:07:39] Susan Blackwell: But I'm gonna put that in my spark file. I might I might do a whole spark.

[1:07:44] Laura Camien: Let's talk about it. Did we ever talk on this?

[1:07:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh no, I think I told this story on the podcast about how Nathan, when he was little, they would play toy poker. I did talk about that. How his group it's in my spark file, and I'm almost certain I've talked about it.

[1:07:59] Laura Camien: So he grew up in uh Nevada, and a lot of the parents of that that friend group of those kids were they worked in the casinos, they were dealers, they were cocktail witnesses, et cetera.

[1:08:11] Susan Blackwell: And the kids would bring their toys and they would play toy poker.

[1:08:16] Laura Camien: I know I've talked about this.

[1:08:17] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. Amazing. And he still to this day remembers that's where I got my Garfield stuffed animal playing toy poker and who he got it from and what he lost in Toy Poker in any event.

[1:08:30] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:08:30] Susan Blackwell: We're gonna have a whole card spark. That's what we're gonna do.

[1:08:33] Laura Camien: We're gonna have a card spark.

[1:08:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh, you're a shark.

[1:08:38] Laura Camien: Okay. So I think what you're talking about though, having an activity, having a purpose, those things, those are the kind of factors that can make a gathering come alive for you.

[1:08:51] Susan Blackwell: I I can go a step further.

[1:08:53] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:08:53] Susan Blackwell: Anytime, like I knew what my role was. So let's say um we're all we're going to the grand, we're a blue man group, we're going to the Grammys. I have a job to do. I'm doing the red carpet. I'm speaking to journalists, I'm doing this, this, and this. I have I know what I'm doing.

[1:09:08] Laura Camien: If I'm just there, just there, and your job is just to go and be there.

[1:09:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:09:14] Laura Camien: Oof. Anxiety.

[1:09:15] Susan Blackwell: Interesting. Interesting. Love it.

[1:09:19] Laura Camien: I love your self-awareness about that. And I think Priya Parker's would love it too. In The Art of Gathering, Priya writes about how important gatherings are to human experience, but she feels like too often we don't give them enough thought.

[1:09:33] Susan Blackwell: She writes, any number of studies support a notion. That's obvious to many of us. Much of the time we spend in gatherings with other people disappoints us. Duncan Green, a blogger and specialist in international development, confesses in The Guardian, with the occasional exception, my mood in conferences usually swings between boredom, despair, and rage.

[1:09:53] Laura Camien: And then Priya goes on to say, as much as our gatherings disappoint us, though, we tend to keep gathering in the same tired ways.

[1:10:00] Susan Blackwell: Most of us remain on autopilot when we bring people together following stale formulas, hoping that chemistry of a good meeting, conference, or a party will somehow take care of itself. That thrilling results will magically emerge from the usual stayed inputs. It is almost always a vain hope.

[1:10:19] Laura Camien: But never fear because Priya posits that with some conscious thought and planning and with her expert, expert guidance, she really shows us how to take our gatherings from tired, boring, and excruciating to living and vibrant and transformational.

[1:10:37] Susan Blackwell: And as we have talked about on this podcast, I'm just going to do a little recap for the people that haven't heard the episode. The health of a good gathering starts at the roots. As I said back in my Sparks on the power of why, Priya encourages people to really consider why they are gathering and really drill down to the purpose of the gathering at its deepest level.

[1:10:59] Laura Camien: Now that's the kind of gathering you, Laura Camien, seem to respond to.

[1:11:45] Susan Blackwell: And contexts that are not our own. We get lulled into the false belief that knowing the category of the gathering, the board meeting, workshop, birthday party, town hall, will be instructive to designing it. But we often choose the template and the activities and structure that go along with it before we're clear on purpose.

[1:12:04] Laura Camien: She goes on to say, when we don't examine the deeper assumptions behind why we gather, we end up skipping too quickly to replicating old stayed formats of gathering and we forego the possibility of creating something memorable, even transformative.

[1:12:18] Susan Blackwell: She urges us before we gather to ask ourselves: why is this gathering different from all my other gatherings? Why is it different from other people's gatherings of the same general type? What is this that other gatherings aren't?

[1:12:33] Laura Camien: And she really wants us to take the time for a deeper dive. She says, take the reasons you think you are gathering, for instance, because it's our departmental Monday morning meeting, because it's a family tradition to barbecue at the lake and keep drilling below them.

[1:12:50] Susan Blackwell: Ask why you're doing it. Every time you get to another deeper reason, ask why again. Keep asking why until you hit a belief or value.

[1:12:58] Laura Camien: So Laura, you've heard all this when I did that spark on the power of why. But you are getting ready to take a vacation.

[1:13:07] Susan Blackwell: You're going to the lake for a traditional family vacation. You have taken it several years in a row.

[1:13:12] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:13:13] Susan Blackwell: And I want to read you a passage from Priya's book. And I want you to think about your upcoming family vacation. And I want you to plug it in. When I say neighborhood potluck, I want you to plug in traditional family vacation at the lake.

[1:13:27] Laura Camien: Yeah, correct.

[1:13:28] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So these are Priya's words. Let's take a look at how we might move from the what to the why of something as simple as a neighborhood potluck or a trip to the lake.

[1:13:38] Laura Camien: So why are you having a neighborhood potluck slash vacation at the lake?

[1:13:44] Susan Blackwell: And the answer might be because we like potlucks. We have one every year.

[1:13:49] Laura Camien: But why do you have one every year?

[1:13:52] Susan Blackwell: And your answer might be because we like to get our neighbors together at the beginning of the summer.

[1:13:57] Laura Camien: But why do you like to get your neighbors together at the beginning of the summer?

[1:14:02] Susan Blackwell: I guess if you really think about it, it's a way of marking the time and reconnecting after the hectic school year.

[1:14:08] Laura Camien: And why is that important?

[1:14:10] Susan Blackwell: Because when we have more time in the summer to be together, it's when we remember what community is.

[1:14:16] Laura Camien: And it helps us forge the bonds that make this a great place to live and safer and a place that embodies the values we want our children to grow up with, like that strangers aren't scary.

[1:14:26] Susan Blackwell: Priya concludes, now we're getting somewhere.

[1:14:29] Laura Camien: So, Laura, when you hear that, does that give you any deeper ideas about why you all are gathering for the umpteeth time for your family vacation at the lake? Like what is the deeper purpose?

[1:14:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I mean, I think it's the why is that we value what it means to be family.

[1:14:51] Laura Camien: And we value the bonds that are formed through spending time together.

[1:14:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:14:58] Laura Camien: I think that's beautiful. And when you have talked about those trips to the lake, even when it's getting closer and you're start talking you start talking about it and the way that you want to protect your time around it.

[1:15:12] Susan Blackwell: It seems like even though you all may have never discussed it, but maybe you have, that there does seem to be more purpose to it than just like tradition, because you're a person who, as you just said, is drawn to gatherings where purpose is sewn into them.

[1:15:32] Laura Camien: And you seem drawn to that gathering at that lake.

[1:15:35] Susan Blackwell: Oh, a hundred percent.

[1:15:36] Laura Camien: But we also are doing things, Suze.

[1:15:39] Susan Blackwell: We're doing things.

[1:15:40] Laura Camien: So, you know, there's water skiing and and surfing behind the boat and sometimes card playing. And, you know, so we are we are active for sure.

[1:15:50] Susan Blackwell: And that's like that's super fun.

[1:15:52] Laura Camien: Um, and I enjoy that aspect to it. And it helps me rather than what are we we're gonna be together for five days and what are we gonna do?

[1:16:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you're not worried about that.

[1:16:03] Laura Camien: You're not worried about that.

[1:16:04] Susan Blackwell: Not at all.

[1:16:05] Laura Camien: Not at all. I think it'd be I think it's interesting, and it might be maybe to go and do a little research over cards or while you're in the boat to just have a little conversation about maybe what the deeper purpose of that vacation is.

[1:16:19] Susan Blackwell: I think it's really, really interesting.

[1:16:20] Laura Camien: And you know, it's it's not my family, it's Wes's family.

[1:16:23] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:16:24] Laura Camien: And it had which I am so grateful to be a part of and to be able to be a part of that family is such an honor and a joy.

[1:16:33] Susan Blackwell: And um his cousin Audra, I'm gonna talk to her about this because um, Audra, if you're listening, hi. I can't wait to see you.

[1:16:41] Laura Camien: Hi, she's instrumental in really keeping the family together and creating these events.

[1:16:48] Susan Blackwell: I want to, I'm gonna ask if she's read this book because she is the person who it makes sure that this happens each year.

[1:16:59] Laura Camien: And it's you know, a million people's schedules and a million people's things to sort through and the commitment to family and love of family, I think is behind all of it.

[1:17:10] Susan Blackwell: I love that so much.

[1:17:11] Laura Camien: And I also love that there's a hummingbird on the hummingbird theater right now.

[1:17:14] Susan Blackwell: I think that's a good sign.

[1:17:16] Laura Camien: We started talking about and a hummingbird came up.

[1:17:20] Susan Blackwell: Can I just suggest if you wanted to take her a little present, get her a copy of this book and bring it to her?

[1:17:26] Laura Camien: That's for you.

[1:17:27] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:17:28] Laura Camien: Okay, I'm doing it.

[1:17:29] Susan Blackwell: Tell me to fuck myself.

[1:17:30] Laura Camien: I'm doing it. Audrey, if you hear this, act surprised.

[1:17:34] Susan Blackwell: Um Priya calls this uh this idea of that deeper thought, the Passover principle because of a question that is ritually asked at traditional Jewish Seder on the holy day. Why is this night different from all other nights?

[1:17:51] Laura Camien: And she encourages the reader before you gather, ask yourself, why is this gathering different from all my other gatherings?

[1:17:58] Susan Blackwell: Why is it different from other people's gatherings of the same general type? What is this that other gatherings aren't?

[1:18:05] Laura Camien: She goes on to say that a good gathering purpose should also be disputable.

[1:18:11] Susan Blackwell: This concept I love. So, for instance, a disputable concept around a wedding.

[1:18:19] Laura Camien: If you say the purpose of your wedding is to celebrate love, it may bring a smile to people's faces because you aren't really committing to anything because who would dispute that purpose?

[1:18:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes, a wedding should celebrate love, of course, but an indisputable purpose like that doesn't help you with the hard work of creating a meaningful gathering because it won't help you make decisions.

[1:18:39] Laura Camien: When the inevitable tensions arise around guest list, venue, one night versus two, your purpose won't be there to guide you.

[1:18:47] Susan Blackwell: I love this so much. A disputable purpose, on the other hand, begins to be a decision filter.

[1:18:53] Laura Camien: If you commit to a purpose of your wedding as a ceremonial repayment of your parents for all they've done for you as you set off to build your own family, that is disputable.

[1:19:03] Susan Blackwell: And it will immediately help you make choices. That one remaining seat will go to your parents' long-lost friend, not your estranged college buddy.

[1:19:12] Laura Camien: If, on the other hand, you commit to the equally valid purpose of a wedding as a melding of a new couple with a tribe of people with whom they feel most open, that too is disputable.

[1:19:24] Susan Blackwell: And it implies clear and different answers. The parent's friend may have to stand down for the college buddy.

[1:19:31] Laura Camien: So I love this concept in in all sorts of gatherings.

[1:19:35] Laura Camien: I love it when I think about our classes that we lead. I love it when we think about parties that we throw. And we actually did this with my first wedding. That's right, Liz Taylor. My first wedding. I got a kick out of that. So we, my now ex-husband, so uh we made the decision. We made a really conscious decision around purpose that we wanted to bring our nearest and dearest together to blend and to bond and to hear our vows and to support us in keeping those vows. Yes. That was our purpose. So that core purpose impacted all different aspects of planning the wedding. The limited number of specific people who were present. And I remember, Camille An, you were dating somebody and you came to me and you said, May I bring them to the wedding?

And I it pained me to do it, but I said, I'm so sorry, but you can't. Do you want to know something? I think that was a good call because I don't even remember who I was dating. There you go. And we were really, we were really honed in on the people that were going to be present for that. Yes. We were were really critical members of our community. 100%. I remember that. And your purpose was clear. You made it clear. Yeah. It was super, super clear. But it it impacted that purpose impacted again, those specific people that were present, the language we used in the ceremony, the way we had people, uh, the formation of the way people gathered for the wedding. Uh, we had everybody every single person that was present touched the rings and sort of put like a wish or a blessing on them.

But it also it led to dispute. We didn't invite children to our wedding because we wanted emotionally mature people who understood what they were present for, who could hear the vows and support us in keeping those vows when things got tough. And that was a point, talk about disputable. That was a point of conflict for my family. But I stood by that purpose. And I have to tell you, it was a remarkable wedding. It was a remarkable wedding. Like it was. I accidentally, when I read Priya's book, I was like, oh my God, I accidentally adhered to a lot of the concepts in her book. I don't know if it was accidental. I just I think you're very intuitively like yeah, yeah.

[1:22:14] Laura Camien: Another reason that gathering was remarkable was the location. And this is something that Priya talks about. We chose a remote artist's retreat. And that location pulled the guests out of their day to day. It was creative, which was really important to us. And because there was nothing nearby, it kept guests together and focused on the purpose of the gathering and bonding, which was important to our purpose and was an it's another key to having a transformational gathering. Yes. Priya says what many hosts don't realize is that the choice of venue is one of your most powerful levers over your guests' behavior. A deft gatherer picks a place that elicits the behavior they want and plays down the behaviors they don't want.

So when you have your conference in Las Vegas, for example, you are, you know, competing with not always the best of a person. You know, you're competing with the temptations that are pulling your attention in other directions. Well, unless there's specific reasons that you want people to be surrounded by those sorts of things. She says, a venue can and should do one further thing, displace people. Displacement is simply about breaking people out of their habits. It's about waking people up from the slumber of their own routines. As a facilitator, I seek to do that through the questions I ask and the exercises I run. But it is also possible to achieve a great deal of displacement through the choice of space.

[1:23:56] Laura Camien: And to help illustrate that concept of displacement, Priya gives us example of this famed photographer, Playton. Playton has photographed every sitting U.S. president, from Jimmy Carter all the way through as the writing of this book, Barack Obama. He's photographed world leaders and infamous despots and famed protesters and hundreds of celebrities. And for many of his sessions, he's not always able to choose the location. He's often just given 10 minutes with a head of state backstage at some event or at a concert or in a cramped hotel room to get a shot. And in those cases, he can't control the location to the extent he'd like. But regardless of the location, he brings this decrepit, falling apart, white painted crate for his subjects to sit on.

And then Playton tells them every other person who has sat to be photographed on that box, and they always acquiesce. Wow. And in doing that, he's not only blowing minds, but Playton is also displacing his subjects from the context that they're in, and is through this physical object, connecting them to all the other photo shoots and all the other people who have come before them. Through time through time and space. So he may only have seven minutes with a president, but those seven minutes are going to be defined by his space and his context, not theirs. Priya in the story, she she's a beautiful storyteller. And one of the reasons this book is so good is because the number of supporting examples she gives through storytelling in this book make it so rich and so understandable. I can't recommend this book highly enough.

[1:26:01] Laura Camien: So um, she tells she tells how after years of lugging it around, this box finally fell apart. And Playton had his assistants remake a new box to look exactly like this old weathered original, because it had become this sort of symbol of temporarily displacing a leader from their throne. That's amazing. A simple, simple thing. Displacement is a key to a great gathering. Another gem that Priya shares is talking about ways of fusing your gathering, creating a good kind of shock to the system with the people that you're gathering to focus and bond them. And she gives, speaking of boxes, she gives another example of a ritual called box. Jill Sulaway, they made the show Transparent, uh used on that production.

So essentially, at the beginning of each filming day after breakfast and before the first scene is shot, the cast and crew gather and start chanting box, box, box, box. And what's called like an apple box, which is essentially a crate that is used in filmmaking, is brought out and put on the floor. And anyone who wants to can get up and say something. And that can, yes, Laura.

[1:27:26] Susan Blackwell: When I read this, I was like, this is extraordinary because it takes about 20 or 40 minutes, which is a lot of time in the world of film and television making. Those shoot dates are very, very long, but it concludes with the entire cast and crew knowing, really knowing each other and being bonded into a cohesive group. And I have to believe that over the course of a long series like Transparent, it would make for a healthier, happier, more productive, more in sync work environment. So it might be one of those things that it's like, yes, it takes 20 to 40 minutes a day, but we earn that time back because we're working so cohesively together. That's right. A little bit of prevention can really, you know, like that's that kind of intentional work on the front end. You have less cleanup to do on the back end.

[1:28:25] Laura Camien: I will tell you, as somebody who recently joined the cast of a television show, I crave something like this because socially I'm basically, I just basically am dating somebody in a family in a family, like a big family that's been together for a long time. And I feel, even though I'm a very socially adept person, I'm like, this is tough. It's tough to meet everybody, it's tough to learn everybody's names, not only learn everybody's names, but then learn their characters' names, to learn everybody's pronouns. The other all everyone else with the jobs and understanding how it all works together. And I can imagine it would be a really cool way in to have something like this. We did it on the first day that I was there.

It was extraordinary, and we've never done it again. We did it because it was a special day. Um, but and I was introduced on that day, and that was but I didn't get to learn at all 200 people's names. So I can imagine that box, the box tradition would be box tradition, yeah. An amazing thing to do. So put that in your spark file. Heck yeah. I saw you take a little note as I was saying that. What's going on over there?

[1:29:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it was about the box. Yeah. I was just um, yeah, I was just thinking about that. And the, you know, hearing people's voices, we do that in our class, you know, our classrooms, it's important to they say, you know, that if you've used your voice once already, when the moment comes to really say something, you're more likely to say something. And I wonder about that in this regard too. Like on a set, yeah. If you're if you're someone who is literally like never spoken before, you're three months into your shoot, and maybe you have something really important to add, but this can't be the first time you say something ever, and now the moment is past, and now you're five months into it, and you're just like, you've got to get people's voices moving, you've got to get the permission to speak out there. And I just like that's just really exciting to me. I love it.

[1:30:30] Laura Camien: And when when I'm running rooms or when we're running rooms, uh, we definitely build that into the to the gathering, but it is unusual, it is not the norm. It is, it's time consuming, and I think it's the first thing that people think to like, well, we're not gonna have time for that. Like, well, not making time for this on the front end is going to um alter maybe the the rewards you reap in the end, yeah, in terms of communication, in terms of relationship building, in terms of connection. Bonding people, fusing them, building an ensemble. If it's that's if you're in a if you're in an ensemble making, whether that is a team, like a business team, yeah, or uh a troop of players in a in a theatrical context, absolutely.

[1:31:19] Susan Blackwell: Here's another example of fusing an audience. You can fuse an audience while giving a lecture. Do you know Esther Perel, Laura, the relationship and sex therapist? I mean, not personally, yes, but I'm from the But you know a love her, love her work. And I feel like you, I might know about her because of you. I think she might have been in a spark previously. Maybe. Yes, probably. I I really she is a spark in and of herself. Her work and she are amazing. She regularly addresses big crowds, you know, big talks, a thousand plus people. And in addition to her intriguing content, Esther Perel is so sought after because of how she connects audience members to one another. I'm gonna use Priya's words, signaling in subtle ways that they are not alone.

If someone asks Perrell a question about cheating or divorce or boredom, before answering it, she'll look out at the audience and ask, how many of you can relate to this question? Or who also wonders about this? Yes. In that simple act, she transformed one person's question into a collective experience. And Laura, I was like, take it, write it down, put it in your Sparks file, tattoo it on your forehead. I thought that was so brilliant for us as moderators. I was just like, that is brilliant. Who else wonders about that?

[1:32:50] Laura Camien: Who else wonders about that?

[1:32:51] Susan Blackwell: All hands fly into the air.

[1:32:53] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:32:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it really engages people.

[1:32:57] Laura Camien: Another example, pre this book is Chaka Block with such great storytelling.

[1:33:01] Susan Blackwell: Another example, Priya cites about how to fuse people, comes from a first grade Montessori school teacher named Daniel Barrett.

[1:33:10] Laura Camien: And this is how Mr. Barrett teaches the incoming first graders about the concept of community.

[1:33:16] Susan Blackwell: On the first day of school, he takes a ball of string and throws it to a student saying something nice to them.

[1:33:22] Laura Camien: Oh and then the child continues the practice holding their part of the string and throwing the ball to another student and saying another nice thing and so on until the group has built a spider web of string.

[1:33:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Daniel Barrett says to the kids, if I tug my end of the web, everyone feels it move. And that's what a community is.

[1:33:42] Laura Camien: All your choices, all your actions, large or small, will affect everybody else.

[1:33:47] Susan Blackwell: Barrett has found a creative, age appropriate way to remind his students, who are the members of his gathering, why they're doing what they're doing.

[1:33:57] Laura Camien: A thoughtful opening moment like that can change the course of a gathering, even one whose duration is measured in years.

[1:34:06] Susan Blackwell: You know what else it does?

[1:34:08] Laura Camien: It sets the stage for having empathy for each other as well.

[1:34:13] Susan Blackwell: Because we are all connected. And that is such a glorious way to illustrate when one of us feels something, we all feel it.

[1:34:23] Laura Camien: When something's happening with one person, it's happening to all of us.

[1:34:27] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I love it, Laura. And I can also imagine just the power of being in a room full of people you are meeting for the first time, whether you're a little or a big, and saying something kind as you engage in an activity.

[1:34:43] Laura Camien: Yeah, like I can totally see it.

[1:34:46] Susan Blackwell: And we're totally gonna take that and take that.

[1:34:49] Laura Camien: I totally want to do that as an adult.

[1:34:51] Susan Blackwell: I do too.

[1:34:52] Laura Camien: And I want to use that really good, thick, puffy yarn that really good.

[1:34:57] Susan Blackwell: I'm seeing hot pink.

[1:34:58] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:34:58] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Priya also looks closely at how important thoughtfully crafted conclusions are to any gathering.

[1:35:07] Laura Camien: And she talks a lot about how, and she's the other thing that's so great about this book is she uses a lot of examples from her life where she has not followed her own rules and failed.

[1:35:21] Susan Blackwell: And she talks about this one meeting that she was in. I can't remember if she was just in attendance at it or if she helped organize it, but they had failed to craft an ending, a conclusion to the gathering.

[1:35:33] Laura Camien: And so the speaker was just like, that's it.

[1:35:37] Susan Blackwell: And people just sat there because they were built to this moment. And the speaker was like, And that's it. It's over. Bye.

[1:35:46] Laura Camien: And how they had just lost this opportunity for a powerful conclusion.

[1:35:53] Susan Blackwell: So I'm happy to say we uh we do this at the Matt Opera's Educator Conference, which I've moderated for the past four years, I think.

[1:36:03] Laura Camien: Instead of just finishing the last presentation and saying, that's it, everybody, we hope you enjoyed it. Bye.

[1:36:09] Susan Blackwell: We have carefully crafted this last act of the gathering. And whether it's held live or whether it's held over Zoom, which it has been through the pandemic, we make time near the end to contemplate and share with each other what we've learned.

[1:36:25] Laura Camien: We do an exercise that sort of weaves all of that learning into a moment together.

[1:36:31] Susan Blackwell: We have an exchange of gratitude. And we sort of are, and this is the theater person in me, like the theater maker and the storyteller in me.

[1:36:41] Laura Camien: We always conclude it like a story and seal it with like some sort of kiss proverbial kiss.

[1:36:48] Susan Blackwell: Like we really do. And it's wonderful.

[1:36:51] Laura Camien: Our friend Thomas would call that the kiss good night. Like he always does something to make sure that there's a magical moment.

[1:36:59] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes it calls back to something that we all experienced earlier, like three days earlier, it will call back to that.

[1:37:06] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:37:07] Susan Blackwell: So it's really this book is so good. And I went on her website, which again is beautifully designed, and she is bringing it all into this moment as well.

[1:37:22] Laura Camien: Now that we're all vaccinated and we're beginning to spend time together in person, she is preparing people to make that transition back into live gathering.

[1:37:33] Susan Blackwell: As our dear wise friend and client, Tammy Evans says, transitioning from pandemicing to peopling for you is beginning to prepare people for that.

[1:37:44] Laura Camien: That's incredible.

[1:37:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. We need it, you know.

[1:37:48] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:37:49] Susan Blackwell: And she poses these really thoughtful questions on her website. She says, How do we regather? The decks have been cleared and we have an opportunity.

[1:38:00] Laura Camien: She encourages people to think about these questions in terms of your own experience.

[1:38:05] Susan Blackwell: Number one, what did you long for when we couldn't physically gather? What did you find yourself daydreaming about from the before times that you cannot wait to get back to doing with people?

[1:38:19] Laura Camien: She then asks, number two, what did you discover that you want to keep? Did you have any experiences that improved connection with others this past year? That weekly family video call, more cooking at home, a slower social schedule.

[1:38:36] Susan Blackwell: So, number one, what did you long for? Number two, what did you discover that you want to keep?

[1:38:42] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:38:43] Susan Blackwell: And number three, what gathering needs reinvention? What specific gathering would you really love to rework or try anew? And I thought those were such great questions.

[1:38:56] Laura Camien: It's so funny. When I think about what did you long for when we couldn't physically gather? I don't have a lot that I longed for it, but I have heard people we know and love, Celia Keenan-Bolger, who referred this book, who I think she really longs to get back together with people.

[1:39:13] Susan Blackwell: Whereas I'm sort of like, let's live on Zoom forever. You know?

[1:39:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:39:17] Susan Blackwell: But interesting. You know what? You know what I did long for? I longed for our holiday party. Like we have an annual holiday party. It's very small, but I did long for that.

[1:39:29] Laura Camien: Is there anything that you longed for, Laura?

[1:39:31] Susan Blackwell: Um, I would say small group conversation.

[1:39:38] Laura Camien: Like I really longed for like the idea of like four to six people having a meal and like incredible conversation that's like deep and meaningful and intellectual and like thought provoking, makes me walk away thinking new thoughts and exploring new ideas in my head for days after.

[1:39:58] Susan Blackwell: But I do also think like I did replace that, like I got a lot of that from Zoom.

[1:40:04] Laura Camien: So, you know, so it's a slight longing, but I did find other ways to do it.

[1:40:09] Susan Blackwell: But I do look forward to I look forward to you know, Wes and Nathan joining us for a meal and all of us get into chit chat about anything and everything.

[1:40:19] Laura Camien: Did you discover anything during the pandemic times that you want to keep?

[1:40:22] Susan Blackwell: 100%. One, that we can work with people all over the world, that we are able to have like incredibly connective and deep and meaningful sessions with our clients over Zoom from anywhere. That's A.

[1:40:39] Laura Camien: And that anywhere, like that our classes have come together with people from everywhere, which is just beyond exciting.

[1:40:49] Susan Blackwell: Um I think that, and then I think some other, you know, family connections like through Zoom or or or college friends that I'm like, oh yeah, there's no reason why we can't actually see each other's face. We didn't do this before, but let's keep doing this now.

[1:41:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:41:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:41:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:41:08] Susan Blackwell: And the third question what gathering needs reinvention? What specific gathering would you really love to rework or try anew?

[1:41:15] Laura Camien: And I have to say, I can't wait for you to read Priya Parker's's book, The Art of Gathering, because there are so many, it's not reinvention, but there are so many good ideas.

[1:41:15] Susan Blackwell: There are so many sparks that I even things I'm holding back from saying on the podcast because I want to maintain surprise when we do them with the group.

[1:41:36] Laura Camien: Oh, that's incredible.

[1:41:39] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited to dig into it too.

[1:41:42] Laura Camien: Yeah, this is great.

[1:41:44] Susan Blackwell: Sue's so good. This is I can't even tell you. This is I am so skating over the surface because I'm just this book is encyclopedic in the depth of its so good, Laura.

[1:41:58] Laura Camien: It is so good.

[1:41:59] Susan Blackwell: It's like I think we've done other books on this podcast where it's like, I'm not actually covering this book. I'm covering like a chapter of this book because so often like the books that we love are chapter after chapter after chapter of amazing ideas.

[1:42:14] Laura Camien: This might be a book that you spark back at me.

[1:42:16] Susan Blackwell: I wouldn't be surprised if you read this book.

[1:42:18] Laura Camien: Okay, you spark it back at me.

[1:42:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm I'm up for it.

[1:42:23] Laura Camien: I'm totally spark back.

[1:42:25] Susan Blackwell: But what do we make of it? What do we do? What do you make of it, Suze?

[1:42:28] Susan Blackwell: Well, whether you are planning a wedding, hosting a conference, running a meeting, planning an off-site, a retreat, creating an immersive theater event or a gallery show or a book launch party, you might want to give it some deeper thought and not just rely on those old templates.

[1:42:46] Laura Camien: Put it through the lens of Priya Parker's's work.

[1:42:49] Susan Blackwell: Laura, as I just mentioned, I want to look at the courses that we lead through the lens of this work, how we bring people on board, how we bond them, how we moderate discussions, how we conclude it.

[1:43:02] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[1:43:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh yes. Oh my God. I'm game. I'm up for it.

[1:43:08] Laura Camien: It is sparks of plenty. I am so sparked by this book. As I said 10 times, I cannot recommend it highly enough. And I am so excited to continue to incorporate it into our creativity and our work.

[1:43:21] Susan Blackwell: It is stunning. Thank you, Celia Keenan-Bolger, for that spark.

[1:43:27] Laura Camien: Thank you, Celia.

[1:43:28] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Priya Parker's, for your work.

[1:43:30] Laura Camien: Thank you, Priya.

[1:43:32] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Susan, for sparking us with it.

[1:43:34] Laura Camien: Like thank you, Laura, for being Sparks.

[1:43:37] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. It's gratitude all around.

[1:43:40] Laura Camien: It's so much gratitude.

[1:43:43] Susan Blackwell: Wow. Good spark.

[1:43:45] Laura Camien: Really good.

[1:43:46] Susan Blackwell: Good spark sub plural.

[1:43:49] Laura Camien: I can't I can't wait to share your spark with Nathan.

[1:43:52] Susan Blackwell: I want to see what how he scores.

[1:43:55] Laura Camien: Oh, I want to know too.

[1:43:56] Susan Blackwell: Please let me know how he scores.

[1:43:59] Laura Camien: I will.

[1:44:00] Susan Blackwell: I will. But in the meantime, I think that's it.

[1:44:04] Laura Camien: This episode of The Spark File was made on Muncie Lenape and Seminole Land.

[1:44:09] Susan Blackwell: And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:44:12] Laura Camien: Hey, listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, email us at thesparkfile@gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:44:25] Susan Blackwell: Also, if you have pictures of hummingbirds on your hummingbird feeder, we'd like those too.

[1:44:30] Laura Camien: And also if you take the tests on whether you're a highly sensitive person or an empath, we want to know about it.

[1:44:35] Susan Blackwell: We'd like that too.

[1:44:36] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, yes.

[1:44:37] Susan Blackwell: So, and we will take your feedback. You know that.

[1:44:39] Laura Camien: Also, also, also, also, also PPPPS, you know the price of admission.

[1:44:44] Susan Blackwell: First, you got to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:44:48] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social media at thesparkfile.

[1:44:51] Susan Blackwell: And if you have a chance, be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. Apparently, it really helps other listeners find us, especially subscribing.

[1:45:02] Laura Camien: Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love.

[1:45:06] Susan Blackwell: And if you didn't like it, go start your own podcast, you creative little devil.

[1:45:12] Laura Camien: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:45:22] Susan Blackwell: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:45:27] Laura Camien: You know you gotta take it and make it.

[1:45:42] Susan Blackwell: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:45:47] Laura Camien: I pump it in the spark file.

[1:45:52] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark fix.

[1:45:57] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.