This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark files.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Sparkfile to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark style. Spark!

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark files.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Lauren Cammian and I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you're an OG member of the Sparkfile community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, friends.

[1:01] Laura Camien: Welcome.

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you're joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:08] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, ladies, ladies, ladies, what exactly is a sparkfile?

[1:14] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:20] Laura Camien: That's right. And if you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know, if you're not careful, your little campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:29] Susan Blackwell: But don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:39] Laura Camien: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like what this podcast.

[1:45] Susan Blackwell: Or a ritual for rest and rejuvenation.

[1:49] Laura Camien: Mmm, I like the sounds of it.

[1:52] Susan Blackwell: I know it sounds good.

[1:54] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:58] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:02] Laura Camien: You know what that means, Laura Cammian.

[2:04] Susan Blackwell: What does it mean, Suze?

[2:05] Laura Camien: It means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:09] Susan Blackwell: Woo!

[2:09] Laura Camien: That's the truth.

[2:10] Susan Blackwell: So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:16] Laura Camien: You like the sounds of the spark?

[2:18] Susan Blackwell: Go on and make something out of it.

[2:20] Laura Camien: Well, without further ado, let's open up the spark spark file.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Laura Cammy.

[2:27] Laura Camien: Hi, Seuss.

[2:28] Susan Blackwell: It's podcast day.

[2:30] Laura Camien: It's podcast day.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: It's podcast day.

[2:32] Laura Camien: How are you doing?

[2:33] Susan Blackwell: I'm good here.

[2:34] Laura Camien: I'm good.

[2:35] Susan Blackwell: My internet's been a little sketchy today.

[2:38] Laura Camien: We were in class, like we were in SmackDab in the middle of class today, and all of a sudden my Zoom went boot and booked me right on out.

[2:48] Susan Blackwell: So it was but you know, we all recovered.

[2:51] Laura Camien: It was fine.

[2:51] Susan Blackwell: And that's why there's it's the beauty of having two of us.

[2:56] Laura Camien: One of the benefits of having two coaches is that if my internet craps it, you're still there leading the charge.

[3:04] Susan Blackwell: I'm still here.

[3:06] Laura Camien: It was like I never went away.

[3:08] Susan Blackwell: It was beautiful.

[3:09] Laura Camien: It was just fine.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: You, you know, you were missed momentarily, but you returned and all all was well.

[3:16] Laura Camien: Everybody survived.

[3:17] Susan Blackwell: How are you doing over there, Laura Cammian?

[3:19] Laura Camien: So good.

[3:20] Susan Blackwell: I'm doing good.

[3:21] Laura Camien: I'm excited to record.

[3:23] Susan Blackwell: And I have to tell you that I have been uh I okay, I'm gonna tell you something.

[3:29] Laura Camien: I'll tell everybody something that makes me feel like, oh, there's an area that I'm failing in in my life.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: That is that when we get to this little part before we share our sparks, and we're like, whoa, any little mini sparks, little things that we want to talk about.

[3:42] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[3:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm always like, um, because I can't recall in the moment.

[3:48] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: So I started now. I have my spark file, but I started a spark file for mini sparks.

[3:56] Laura Camien: Yes.

[3:57] Susan Blackwell: But now here's the thing. I've collected so many little mini sparks that I might actually make a whole spark out of them.

[4:03] Laura Camien: So I'm like, now what do I do?

[4:06] Susan Blackwell: But I'm very excited that I have these little little sparks that I can share.

[4:11] Laura Camien: Little babies.

[4:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, I have a little baby. This is a baby.

[4:14] Laura Camien: I've mentioned this to you before, but since the last time we recorded the podcast, I just went down a little bit of a rabbit hole about getting your colors analyzed.

[4:24] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[4:25] Laura Camien: I was like, Laura, do you want do you want to go with me and we can get our colors done?

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: That is the most 80s thing that I could possibly say to you.

[4:34] Laura Camien: Friends, if you weren't around in the 80s, like there used to be a thing where you could go, like your mom would take it.

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: I was just gonna say, my mom did it with her.

[4:43] Laura Camien: Your mom did it.

[4:45] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[4:45] Laura Camien: And you could they would be like, you're a winter, you're a spring, you're a summer, or you're a fall.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: And it would, yeah, it would help you to understand what colors really looked great on you.

[4:59] Laura Camien: And if you care about that shit, some people are like, I like what I like, but I do think there's a set of colors that I like to look at.

[5:07] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[5:08] Laura Camien: And there's a set of colors that actually make me look alive.

[5:13] Susan Blackwell: When we're looking at you, we it we are pleased by the aesthetic.

[5:18] Laura Camien: So you're wearing a color too.

[5:20] Susan Blackwell: And Laura was Laura agreed that she would go with me and we could get our colors done.

[5:24] Laura Camien: But Laura Camion is wearing this color today, and I just love it on you.

[5:29] Susan Blackwell: It is this I call it highlighter red.

[5:32] Laura Camien: It's more like a fuchsia, like that hot pink.

[5:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:35] Laura Camien: It's I love it on you.

[5:37] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[5:38] Laura Camien: But maybe the color analysis person would confirm or deny.

[5:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, they might say, it's great that you love that, Laura, but it's not for you.

[5:47] Laura Camien: It needs to be packed away.

[5:49] Susan Blackwell: Maybe they would say that.

[5:50] Laura Camien: And I don't know if I would change anything about anything, but it is interesting to know.

[5:56] Susan Blackwell: Especially, I suppose on moments when you're like, I'm gonna go, like we need we need to get photographs taken.

[6:02] Laura Camien: And so it might be information that we want, like on a day when we're getting our photos taken or something.

[6:08] Susan Blackwell: But for any for podcast listeners, you might recall if you've been with the podcast for years now.

[6:14] Laura Camien: We did a whole episode and I talked about like black on black, and my wardrobe was like it's just easy and it's it's like the New York rainbow baby.

[6:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and aesthetically, like, but but it wasn't so much for me about the look of it as it was about the convenience of it and not stressing in the morning.

[6:32] Laura Camien: It's like uh, I'll just I'm I'm gonna wear this with this or this with this, and it all goes.

[6:37] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[6:38] Laura Camien: But when I was in Florida, you don't wear black unless you you know really want another 20 degrees of heat on your body.

[6:47] Susan Blackwell: So in Florida, I wore a lot of colors, and it's just been frankly, um, I don't know, a coincidence, but one that I'll take advantage of that upon my return to New York, colors are everywhere.

[7:03] Laura Camien: Every you know what I mean.

[7:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh, God, yeah.

[7:05] Laura Camien: So it's lovely because my Florida wardrobe has, you know, come with me, and I'm like, yeah, the like, yes, wear some color.

[7:13] Susan Blackwell: All right, we're gonna wear color and we're gonna get our color analyzed.

[7:17] Laura Camien: All of it.

[7:18] Susan Blackwell: We'll report back on this more on the story as it develops.

[7:20] Laura Camien: Are you gonna spark me today?

[7:22] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna spark you.

[7:23] Laura Camien: Yep, I'm gonna spark you today.

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: Do you want to tease us with one baby spark or are you gonna find it?

[7:27] Laura Camien: I will. I'll give you one little baby spark.

[7:29] Susan Blackwell: This is someone who wrote in after the Camp Siegfried episode.

[7:35] Laura Camien: Oh dear dear friend Emily Vines.

[7:39] Susan Blackwell: Ebony!

[7:40] Laura Camien: Thank you so much for this.

[7:42] Susan Blackwell: So Ebony wrote in, and I'm just gonna read it.

[7:45] Laura Camien: I hope you don't mind, Ebony.

[7:47] Susan Blackwell: Ebony wrote in and said that in 2018, she stayed in Southbury, Connecticut, just to have like a Labor Day away and rest on her own.

[7:56] Laura Camien: And to that I say, good on you, Ebony.

[7:59] Susan Blackwell: Good job.

[7:59] Laura Camien: Nice.

[8:00] Susan Blackwell: But a few steps away from her Airbnb that she was staying in was a little museum about the town.

[8:06] Laura Camien: And a majority of that museum was dedicated to the little known fact that the people of Salisbury, Connecticut had stopped the Nazis from having another Camp Siegfried.

[8:19] Susan Blackwell: Like a just another camp.

[8:22] Laura Camien: Apparently, it was almost forgotten fact until a documentary was made in 2012 about it.

[8:29] Susan Blackwell: And they had a celebration this past fall to commemorate the 10-year anniversary of the documentary and the 85th anniversary of the people of Salisbury saying, No, we're not having that.

[8:42] Laura Camien: It will not be here.

[8:43] Susan Blackwell: Good job.

[8:44] Laura Camien: So Ebony wrote in just to say that like knowing about this town gives her hope.

[8:51] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[8:52] Laura Camien: I felt the same.

[8:53] Susan Blackwell: Just knowing that there were attempts made and people stopped it.

[8:57] Laura Camien: We're like, no, we're not uh we're not propagating that, and we're not going to grow little Nazi supporters here.

[9:05] Susan Blackwell: I love hearing it.

[9:06] Laura Camien: I love hearing it.

[9:07] Susan Blackwell: Ebony, thank you so much for writing that in.

[9:10] Laura Camien: To actually be in that and do that.

[9:12] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure if you're listening to this podcast, you're like, of course, of course, but to like go to the town council meeting and stand up and say no is a big deal.

[9:23] Laura Camien: It is a really big deal.

[9:25] Susan Blackwell: And so many of us don't frankly pay that close attention to local politics.

[9:31] Laura Camien: And that's one where you're just like, My God, pay attention to what's happening in your backyard.

[9:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[9:37] Laura Camien: Do you know what I mean?

[9:38] Susan Blackwell: I imagine a lot of people in that town, like if they didn't have kids or if they weren't paying attention to what is being done with the fairgrounds this year.

[9:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:47] Susan Blackwell: You know, they might not have recognized, like, hey, someone's trying to build a camp here.

[9:53] Laura Camien: Yes.

[9:54] Susan Blackwell: I was really floored and so grateful, Ebony.

[9:57] Laura Camien: Thank you so much.

[9:58] Susan Blackwell: That's awesome.

[9:59] Laura Camien: Just a little glimmer of hope that people do people do have love in their hearts and enough attention and um I don't know, focus to stop bad things from happening.

[10:14] Susan Blackwell: And yeah, thank goodness they do.

[10:16] Laura Camien: Thank goodness.

[10:17] Susan Blackwell: That's a great little spark.

[10:18] Laura Camien: Now you want to give me a full size spark.

[10:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna give you a full one, Suze.

[10:22] Laura Camien: Here's the thing you and I um we've we've talked before about working in places where like being exhausted and working through exhaustion was was not just the norm, but it was rewarded.

[10:38] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[10:39] Laura Camien: Like a competition where someone could win what you call the suffering trophy.

[10:43] Susan Blackwell: Like who's working the longest hours, who worked all weekend, who broke their ankle on the job, went to the hospital, still called into all the meetings, you know, went home foot in cast and proceeded to keep juggling every single ball in the air, or went on vacation, but was happy to call in and answered every single email as if they were in the office.

[11:04] Laura Camien: That was an awfully specific example.

[11:05] Susan Blackwell: But I wonder as you were saying that I didn't want to interrupt you, but I was like, is that a blind item or you just want to go ahead and name names?

[11:05] Laura Camien: Blind item.

[11:13] Susan Blackwell: No, we're gonna keep that as it is.

[11:15] Laura Camien: But but I was having a recollection of um in a moment I mentioned, like having I w I go to the hospital during this job that I was doing, and um, and I was fine.

[11:25] Susan Blackwell: Spoiler alert, I was fine, but I'd mentioned it because I missed part of work.

[11:30] Laura Camien: And someone on that job was like, Oh yeah, come on.

[11:33] Susan Blackwell: I go to the hospital every year.

[11:34] Laura Camien: Oh uh you know, last year I broke my I broke my ankle and the year before that I did this, and the year before that I did that, and I was like, and no one thinks that's an issue.

[11:44] Susan Blackwell: Uh so yes, there was some specificity there.

[11:47] Laura Camien: But I think I've also talked on the podcast and confessed that when I look back at my past behavior, I think I've been guilty of contributing to that kind of workplace, frankly.

[12:01] Susan Blackwell: Like I think I've been the person that no one could work harder than.

[12:06] Laura Camien: And I'm not proud of that now.

[12:07] Susan Blackwell: When I look, I'm like, ew, I think I know that's not good.

[12:12] Laura Camien: And I didn't realize it until then I worked in a place where I was on the other end of the stick.

[12:18] Susan Blackwell: Like somebody else was already the hardest working person.

[12:21] Laura Camien: They already had the Stanley Cup or the Super Bowl of suffering trophy.

[12:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:26] Susan Blackwell: And my God, they were not going to relinquish it to someone else, especially not someone new.

[12:32] Laura Camien: And that was so eye-opening for me.

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: Like I I pushed myself so hard to at least be in the running, you know, make the playoffs or something.

[12:40] Laura Camien: But I was so certain that if I just kept working harder, they would see that I am worthy, that I could be on the team of overworking, boundaryless, overachieving people pleasers.

[12:40] Susan Blackwell: I could be on that team.

[12:56] Laura Camien: I really wanted to be on that team.

[12:58] Susan Blackwell: I wanted them to see that I could neglect myself and my own life as much as they could.

[13:03] Laura Camien: Like, look at me.

[13:04] Susan Blackwell: I'm doing it too.

[13:06] Laura Camien: And as I mentioned, like I ended up in the hospital twice in one year, which is not the normal for me.

[13:13] Susan Blackwell: And you came to visit me, sweet Susie B.

[13:16] Laura Camien: I did.

[13:16] Susan Blackwell: That was the wake-up call.

[13:18] Laura Camien: Like this is really fucked up.

[13:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:21] Laura Camien: This is crazy.

[13:23] Susan Blackwell: But all of that was driven by a need to please.

[13:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[13:28] Susan Blackwell: And not only did I I like I valued myself only on my output, but I also believed somewhere that other people only valued me for my output.

[13:41] Laura Camien: Right.

[13:42] Susan Blackwell: And it in some cases, you know, that is true.

[13:44] Laura Camien: Sometimes there are companies and employers and managers who will exploit that characteristic in a person for sure, because people pleasers make incredible employees.

[13:56] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[13:56] Laura Camien: And if you are a child of a narcissist, as all of you know, I am, that relationship of parent child can be repeated over and over and over in your life, where your desire to please can be exploited.

[14:11] Susan Blackwell: And it can feel like very familiar, like that was my comfort zone, you know, to have someone who expects the best from me, but when you do great work, it's not enough, and then you're you're pushed to pull off like a miracle after miracle after miracle, right?

[14:30] Laura Camien: And of course, it's understandable when it's like once in a while, but when it's over and over, you're running on this hamster wheel, you're surviving on compliments.

[14:40] Susan Blackwell: Because frankly, flattery with me, like as an employee, flattery got you everywhere. Little bit of praise, and I would be like, Oh my gosh, I'll work even harder.

[14:51] Laura Camien: Yeah, you survive on these compliments and the days when you know you've pleased them, but eventually it's right back to trying to prove yourself again.

[15:03] Susan Blackwell: Right. So during these years of neglecting myself, neglecting sleep, I had a dominant thought run through my mind with some frequency. And that thought was, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

[15:16] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. And uh just show of hands. Did you know this phrase? Did you think this phrase?

[15:24] Susan Blackwell: I picked it up as an adult. I don't think I heard it until my 30s. And the first time I heard it, it made me laugh.

[15:33] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. Because I thought it was just funny. And it I was also like, oh no, because there was the recognition, a little self-recognition.

[15:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yep. As I was writing this spark, I realized that it went so far as like sleep was something I felt bad about. Like I remember my grandma always equating sleep with laziness.

[15:59] Laura Camien: And no amount of explanation. You know what I mean? Like, if I was like, Yeah, but grandma, I was up until two, so I slept until 10. This is the same eight hours that you slept just because you went to bed at 8:30. You know what I mean?

[16:12] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh. But it was equated with laziness. Saturday mornings, there was no such thing as like sleeping in and feeling okay about it. Sleeping in was immediately like guilt.

[16:23] Laura Camien: Oh god, oh god, I'm I'm in trouble for something.

[16:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes. There is like something really wonderful that I have with Sweet Wesley Day. And this has been true for years, like even before I was able to like really embrace it. But naps are celebrated, sleep is celebrated.

[16:42] Laura Camien: Like, oh, did you nap? That's awesome. Did you sleep in this morning? That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you. You must have needed it.

[16:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I don't know. I'm so thankful for it. It's it's just something that happened over time. I mean, he's a professional actor his whole life. So on most days, if he has a show, his workday doesn't start until like 4 p.m. And that goes till 9 or 10, or sometimes midnight, depending on the show schedule.

[17:08] Laura Camien: But he's always been an early riser. So like he'll get up, start his day, get into things, maybe take a nap, and then go to work. And I was in awe and amazement.

[17:19] ⚠ About 4 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[21:19] ♪ Musical number: "I'll Sleep When I'm Dead" — performed by Warren Zevon ♪

[21:35] Susan Blackwell: So listen, here's where I'm at with this. I have to admit, I did not know the name Warren Zevon. I asked Wes and he's like, oh yeah, I've heard, yeah, he knew. But I like to me, I'm like, how did this phrase? It's not like this guy wasn't necessarily a household name. If he was, he hit his peak before my time. This was a 1976 song. I dug into his music for this spark just because I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know. But you do know him because you know his very famous song.

[22:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[22:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I do know "Werewolves of London."

[22:16] Laura Camien: Ow, "Werewolves and Lola."

[22:18] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That was like his most popular song, but I looked at the other songs and I'm like, it's not like a massive number of hits. He actually wrote songs for other people that became hits. So, like, I'm not taking anything from his talent. It sounds like he was a very successful musician. It also sounds like he lived a very rock and roll lifestyle.

[22:39] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[22:40] Susan Blackwell: And I mean 1970s rock and roll lifestyle.

[22:48] Laura Camien: Right.

[22:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, seriously. So I guess I was sort of like, all right, his music, it's that song in particular. It's not like that song has lived on beyond him. I was just surprised that this phrase, like my parents never mentioned it. We had eight tracks and cassette tapes and all that stuff of my parents' music. Warren Zevon wasn't in there. I have their whole record collection, not in there. So his book wasn't released until after, or his wife, his ex-wife's book wasn't released until after he died. And all I know is like Bon Jovi wrote a song with the same title, but it's not a remake of that song. In 2003, a film starring Clive Owen was titled "I'll Sleep While I'm Dead." And DJ Steve Aoki used the title for a documentary film about himself in 2016. But none of this explains how in the hell this phrase became such a part of our culture. You know, like sometimes you look back and you're like, well, that was a hit song that like was crazy.

[24:00] Laura Camien: Right.

[24:01] Susan Blackwell: Everybody was using the phrase. So the only explanation for its popularity that I can tell is that it's one of those sentiments so concisely and so perfectly expressed that it sums up a belief system of capitalism and productivity.

[24:19] Laura Camien: Yeah, the grind, the hustle culture, that it just sticks like glue. You know what I mean? Even though, again, Warren Zevon didn't mean it about productivity.

[24:32] Susan Blackwell: He was singing about—

[24:34] Laura Camien: No, exactly. He wanted to get in a lot of trouble and he didn't have enough time. So he'll sleep when he's dead.

[24:38] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes, yes. There's pride in it. Do you know what I mean? There's pride in that sentiment.

[24:44] Laura Camien: Suffering trophy.

[24:46] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[24:46] Laura Camien: Or hell raising trophy, if you will.

[24:48] Susan Blackwell: I'm tough enough to handle it. I can work more. I can work harder. So I was fascinated just to look back on that. And you know, you've spoken previously about the nap ministry, Suze, and its founder, Trisha Hersey.

[25:03] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[25:04] Susan Blackwell: She said in a New York Times article, grind culture has normalized pushing our bodies to the brink of destruction. And she writes in her book, we proudly proclaim showing up to work or an event despite an injury, sickness, or mental break. We are praised and rewarded for ignoring our body's need for rest, care, and repair.

[25:32] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, for so long. Again, the trophy goes to the most tired person who got here the earliest and stayed the latest.

[25:45] Susan Blackwell: On the blog MaryCWiley.com, Mary Wiley wrote in 2017, I'm embarrassed how many times those words, I'll sleep when I'm dead, have come out of my mouth. This seems to be the most humble of brags. I was basically saying, I'm so busy, but I'm doing it so well. I don't even need sleep. I'm completely capable of squeezing the productivity out of every last minute. I'm basically a god.

[26:17] Laura Camien: Which I thought was interesting. I just feel sad that while we've been spending decades being busy bragging about our ability to get on or get by with just a few hours of sleep a night. On the flip side, scientists have been learning so much more about the importance of sleep and the harm we are doing ourselves by not getting enough of it.

[26:44] Susan Blackwell: In an article in Science Daily, in the United States, the average American sleeps less than the minimum seven hours of sleep per night recommended by the Center for Disease Control.

[26:56] Laura Camien: The minimum is seven hours per night recommended minimum.

[27:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[27:01] Laura Camien: Wow.

[27:02] Susan Blackwell: Minimum.

[27:02] Laura Camien: Wow, wow.

[27:03] Susan Blackwell: And nearly half of Americans report negative consequences from insufficient sleep. It goes on to say a cultural complication is the notion that getting less than the required amount of sleep signals something positive about the individual. For example, former US President Donald Trump boasted about getting less than four hours of sleep per night and regularly puts down his political opponent by calling Joe Biden sleepy Joe.

[27:34] Laura Camien: He's really tapping into that tough, rugged, toxic masculinity that a real man doesn't need sleep.

[27:44] Susan Blackwell: You know, he's speaking to those people who have a sense of pride of like, yeah, that's right. I don't sleep. Why should anybody else get any sleep?

[27:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:53] Susan Blackwell: So I have no doubt that those nicknames are and all of that bullshit is intentional. There is a very particular culture he's speaking to. And I don't think that's accidental. So there's a ton of studies showing how sleep-deprived we all are. I'm not gonna bore you by citing all of those right now, but trust me, you can look them up easily. The pandemic only brought more of this to light. Some people had downtime to reconsider their relationship to productivity, while other people didn't have a choice and had to push themselves even further during the pandemic, working overtime or working multiple jobs.

[28:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:31] Susan Blackwell: And we have all arrived here exhausted. It's a new level of exhaustion than they've ever experienced before. You know, Suze, that makes me think of the other day we were talking to a new client. Hi, Kelly. And Kelly said, it feels like someone just hit play and fast forward at the same time on their lives, on all of our lives at the same time.

[28:58] Susan Blackwell: And you and I both lost it. We were like, first of all, you have to be old enough to have an old timey tape recorder. Or you can hit play fast forward at the same time. Although I was thinking about that, I'm like, maybe digitally can you do that by accident? Can you flutz with it? And um, I'm not sure. Not really, not in the same way. We would be able to take a tape recorder and press play and fast forward, and it sounded like you know, the high-pitched squiggles. But it's such a good description of this weird sensation that so many of us are feeling that we are we are moving forward again. We hit play, we're moving forward, but also at the same time, there's an undercurrent of, oh shit, we better hurry up and catch up because we're so behind, so fast forward and speed it up. It's just a strange sensation, I think. A really strange sensation.

[29:55] Laura Camien: Anyhow, the sad thing is that we are discovering that going without sleep can literally take years off your life. Oh. It can literally take years off. It can impact mental health. It can impact your weight. It affects diseases like diabetes and heart disease, high blood pressure, and on and on. If you look at it from the positive flip side, according to health.gov, the health benefits of getting enough sleep include getting sick less often, staying at a healthy weight. This is what that amazed me. Like no one knew, like before, no one ever talked about the link between enough sleep and maintaining a healthy weight.

[30:39] Susan Blackwell: I don't know if I've said it on this podcast because I can't remember what we discuss on and off mic, but the last time I had a good long conversation with my sleep doctor. Yeah. Because I do go to um a sleep doctor. Yeah. She was saying to me, people are just beginning to wrap their minds around the connection between sleep and weight and sleep and mental health. Yeah. And not just sort of like in this soft, fuzzy connective way, like the direct line. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. The actual scientific they can tell you exactly what is happening in your body and why not getting not allowing it to rest. There's a reason why we rest. Yeah. And not allowing it to do that and what functions are disturbed by that. Yeah, it's it is no joke.

[31:34] Laura Camien: Yeah. And it's hard, I think, in terms of the weight loss or weight management, it's hard to wrap your brain around because again, going back to what my grandma said, sleeping, laziness. So if you're focused on weight loss, what do they tell you? You gotta move, you gotta work out, you gotta do all of these things. Sleeping is the opposite. It's the opposite of burning calories. And you're like, yes, you do need to move your body while you're awake and you need to sleep. But the health benefits of getting enough sleep also include lowering your risk for serious health problems like diabetes, health disease, reducing stress, improving your mood, thinking more clearly and performing better, getting along better with people, having better relationships, making good decisions, avoiding injuries.

And even though we've been told that like eight hours is the ideal, it really doesn't matter so much whether it's six, seven, eight, or nine hours. What matters is that your sleep is quality and you get through all four stages of sleep, including you get to stage four, the REM cycle, because every single stage of sleep involves different bodily processes and contributes differently to what you know, that rested feeling that you will ideally feel in the morning.

[32:52] Susan Blackwell: So this little exploration led me to thinking about that well-rested feeling. Have you ever noticed that even though you've just slept, there are times, particularly when we're in burnout or we're in like extreme fatigue, or or like essentially culturally, everybody post pandemic, there are times when you just can't achieve that feeling of renewal, right? Or true rest. Well, enter Dr. Sandra Dalton Smith. Dr. Dalton Smith has been on a crusade to educate all of us that there are way more ways to rest than we previously knew. This is not to take away from the need for the actual sleep. But Dr. Dalton Smith says in her very popular TED Talk, there are seven types of rest that we all need. Seven types of rest. And my what do we make of this is going to be woven through this explanation of Dr. Dalton Smith's seven types of rest.

[33:54] Laura Camien: Okay. So she says that even if we've gotten enough sleep, we may still be missing out on the other types of rest that our body and our minds need. She says the first type of rest we need is physical rest, which can be passive or active. Yes, that can be sleep. This could be napping, but it can also be restorative activities such as yoga, stretching, massage, all of that that helps to improve the body's circulation and flexibility. I'm gonna admit to you, Sue, some of the best sleep I have ever gotten has been on a massage table.

[34:31] Susan Blackwell: Ah, like deep, deep, deep sleep. I was reflecting, um, you know, you know, there's like decades of my life that I really don't remember because my memory's not great, but I remember, I don't really want to message that to my memory, but but I it's also factual, like I don't remember a lot of things. So it's okay, Laura's memory. Keeping it real. I actually remember a specific massage that inspired the most incredible and needed sleep of my life. Uh we were opening Blue Man Group in Las Vegas for the first time. We were living in the hotel for like three months, working around the clock. I was tired on levels I did not even understand. And yet when I would try to sleep, you know, when you're so tired you can't actually sleep.

[35:22] Laura Camien: Yeah. So there was, you know, weeks and months of that because we were just so exhausted, but your brain is going all the time. So as soon as the show opened, I flew to my sister's house in Los Angeles. My sweet sister. She booked me an in-home massage with this woman that she had had work on her before. This woman went so deep into the knots in my back, working it all out. I fell asleep on the table. When she was done, I don't have any recollection of it, but apparently I slid off the table onto the couch where my sister, you know, gave me a pillow blanket, set me up. The best. And I proceeded to sleep for 15 hours.

[36:08] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[36:09] Laura Camien: And my sister just let me. She just let me. It was amazing. It was so restorative. Brilliant. I'm so interested to know if people are like, I remember the best sleep of my life was this or that. You know what I mean? Like it can be pretty memorable when you really get some good sleep.

[36:32] Susan Blackwell: I'm sitting over here laughing because I don't know if I said this to you on mic or off, but the best recent sleep of my life is when I went to get that colonoscopy. It was anesthesia sleep. And I'm not kidding. Like I usually meditate when I have like a medical procedure. They think that I'm like dozing off, but I'm just calming myself, you know, because I do think that's a better way to enter into those things. Yeah. When your body is sort of like de stressed. Yeah. And so I was just on my side in the room where I was going to have the procedure meditating. And I I looked at the clock. Well, they didn't even do the anesthesia countdown. I just looked at the clock and I shut my eyes and I was just meditating. And I think that they just went ahead and administered the anesthesia.

[37:24] Laura Camien: Wow.

[37:25] Susan Blackwell: And I opened my eyes, and 45 minutes had passed, and I was like, that is the bat the deepest rest.

[37:35] Laura Camien: Nice.

[37:36] Susan Blackwell: I'm not condoning that people engage in anesthetics to get.

[37:42] Laura Camien: But I was like, fuck, that's good stuff.

[37:45] Susan Blackwell: I'll take it.

[37:46] Laura Camien: 15 hours. Do you remember like was the massage scheduled? Was it in the afternoon and you slept all the way through to the morning? Was it like that?

[37:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes, exactly. It was like early evening, late afternoon. I I uh I flew from Vegas to LA on that day. It was probably like a Monday. I flew there. It was late afternoon. Uh and it was like a 90 minute massage, or maybe even two hours. I don't know how long she worked on me. I just like I fell asleep on the table, and like I said, like just like butter slid right off and onto the couch.

[38:25] Laura Camien: Amazing. Sorry, I feel like I derailed you. So the first of the seven types of rest is what's it now?

[38:32] Susan Blackwell: It is physical rest.

[38:33] Laura Camien: Physical rest.

[38:35] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Can be passive or active.

[38:37] Laura Camien: Okay. Second type is mental rest.

[38:40] Susan Blackwell: Mental fatigue can happen when, even though, like, like I said, you go to lie down and your mind isn't shutting off the work. It's on overdrive. So there's a couple of ways to help with this. One, taking short breaks during the day, maybe every two hours or so, walk around, make lunch. Give your brain the message that it's okay to stop. And another way is to like journal before you go to bed. Like drop all your worries onto the page.

[39:09] Laura Camien: Mmm.

[39:10] Susan Blackwell: Nice. Leave the notepad there if you like if you wake up in the night with a persistent work thought, jot it down and close your eyes again. Just tell your brain that you're safe and you'll get to it in the morning. The third type of rest we need is sensory rest.

[39:26] Laura Camien: Sensory rest.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: All the noise, all the screen time on our phone, on Zoom, bright lights, maybe children needing you throughout the day. All of the incoming information can cause our senses to feel overwhelmed.

[39:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:42] Susan Blackwell: So this can be countered by doing something as simple as closing your eyes for a minute in the middle of the day, meditating as you do. Just put headphones on with white noise or brown noise and give your senses a break from the stimulation. I love this. You can also take a break from electronics, like intentional moments of sensory deprivation, like our friend Chris Pappas was talking about. Put your phone in a lockbox for a while, right? Um, that you can't get to it for a little bit. Doing this, like these moments of intentional sensory deprivation can begin to undo the damage that has been inflicted to us by this over stimulating world.

[40:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:30] Susan Blackwell: This can also be helped by taking all of these suggestions to stop looking at screens at least an hour or two before bed. Just go analog, like read a book if you need to do something before bed. The fourth type of rest is creative rest.

[40:48] Laura Camien: Creative rest.

[40:49] Susan Blackwell: This type of rest is especially important for anyone who must solve problems or brainstorm new ideas on a regular basis. Creative rest reawakens the awe and wonder inside of us. So we want to get back to that like novelty, but this can be like taking in nature. Remember that feeling when you first saw the Grand Canyon or the ocean or a waterfall? Dr. Dalton Smith says allowing yourself to take in the beauty of the outdoors, even if it's at a local park or in your backyard, provide you with creative rest.

[41:31] Laura Camien: This can also mean enjoying the arts.

[41:35] Susan Blackwell: Like she encourages turning your workspace into a place of inspiration by displaying images of places you love or works of art that speak to you.

[41:45] Laura Camien: Oh this makes me think of like artist dates.

[41:48] Susan Blackwell: That's when I think about getting creative rest, I think of going on an artist date.

[41:52] Laura Camien: Clarifying question Do you mean creative rest? Because you said it's in response to people who problem solve for the, you know, have to work their mind in this way. Does creative rest meaning taking a pause that refreshes from creativity or using creativity to rest?

[42:15] Susan Blackwell: I think Dr. Dalton Smith means it as resting from required creative acts.

[42:22] Laura Camien: Like if you are someone that must produce on a regular basis fresh ideas, problem solving.

[42:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. So that's where taking in nature or refilling when you said like pictures of art or places that you respond to, that's sort of like restocking your spark file.

[42:42] Laura Camien: That's right.

[42:43] Susan Blackwell: Or your fish pond, but in like a restful way.

[42:46] Laura Camien: It is. And if you think about it, it's like also pausing to enjoy the creativity of others. When I think about going on an artist date, if I think about it not as an assignment that requires me to do something or produce something, like pages of writing or anything like that. If you think of it as something that you might go take in um, you know, paintings at a museum or one of those new immersive installations to like really take in something you've never seen before.

[43:21] Laura Camien: That can be a way of resting, create you know, getting your creative rest.

[43:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that makes sense to me.

[43:27] Laura Camien: Like nothing's required of you.

[43:29] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[43:30] Laura Camien: You don't need to come up with any ideas.

[43:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[43:32] Laura Camien: You can simply take in the beauty of nature or take in the beauty of this other artwork.

[43:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that makes sense.

[43:41] Laura Camien: The next type of rest we need is emotional rest, which means having the time and space to freely express your feelings and cut back on people pleasing.

[43:53] Susan Blackwell: When people are in need of emotional rest, they have often said yes to things they did not want to say yes to.

[44:01] Laura Camien: This brings on that feeling of being unappreciated or being taken advantage of, and it starts to build that resentment.

[44:11] Susan Blackwell: So the secret of emotional rest involves the courage to be authentic, to set boundaries and tell the truth.

[44:22] Laura Camien: Instead of saying yes to people and feeling resentful, an emotionally rested person can answer honestly.

[44:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[44:31] Laura Camien: If I look back 10 years in my life or even like five to six years, that's been the biggest difference.

[44:39] Susan Blackwell: I feel far less emotionally exhausted because I learned in that span of time, I learned how to say no to things that I'm not interested in doing or things that I suspect might cause me to feel resentful.

[44:53] Laura Camien: Yep.

[44:53] Susan Blackwell: Next, social rest.

[44:55] Laura Camien: You probably have a social rest deficit when you fail to differentiate between those relationships that revive you versus those relationships that exhaust you.

[45:08] Susan Blackwell: So to experience more social rest, you must surround yourself with positive and supportive people.

[45:17] Laura Camien: Oh, that's the spark pile.

[45:19] Susan Blackwell: That's the spark pile.

[45:22] Laura Camien: Even if your interactions have to occur virtually, you can choose to engage more fully in them by turning on your camera, focusing on who you're speaking to.

[45:31] Susan Blackwell: Like we have seen the power of positive social interaction that takes place virtually, deep and meaningful connections.

[45:40] Laura Camien: Oh, for sure.

[45:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it can happen with the right people and the people who are there, you know, that fill each other up that revive us versus exhaust us.

[45:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:50] Susan Blackwell: So, friends, if you don't have that yet, get yourself a group of people that revive you the way the Sparks Bell revives us.

[45:59] Laura Camien: Love that.

[45:59] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Dalton Smith says the final type of rest is spiritual rest, which is the ability to connect beyond the physical and mental and feel a deep sense of belonging, love, acceptance, and purpose.

[46:16] Laura Camien: To receive this, we need to engage in something greater than yourself, greater than yourself.

[46:22] Susan Blackwell: And for some people, you can add prayer, meditation, community involvement.

[46:28] Laura Camien: I was reading separately from this, Suze about this very real thing called helpers high.

[46:34] Susan Blackwell: It's helpers high, uh-huh is what it's referred to, but it's an increase in dopamine when we help others.

[46:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:40] Susan Blackwell: Again, this needs to be an authentic help, not the kind of like, uh, I can't believe I said I would do this and feel resentful of.

[46:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:47] Susan Blackwell: But there is something to purpose.

[46:50] Laura Camien: It's those things where you're like, I am exhausted, and yet when I go to work, you know, on Saturday at meals on wheels or something, it can revive you, and you realize, wow, I started this so exhausted, and I feel amazing.

[47:06] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[47:07] Laura Camien: So that's spiritual rest.

[47:09] Susan Blackwell: Now, many people say they cannot rest.

[47:12] Laura Camien: It is a luxury that they can't afford.

[47:14] Susan Blackwell: Again, Trisha Hersey and the NAP Ministry talk about this reality.

[47:19] Laura Camien: According to that New York Times article, rest can also feel like a privilege.

[47:24] Susan Blackwell: And many people tell Hersey they can't afford to lie down when there are bills to pay.

[47:29] Laura Camien: She acknowledges that many people do see walking away from obligations as unrealistic.

[47:36] Susan Blackwell: But she counters that devoting even one spare moment to rest is worthwhile and a practice that can be built over time.

[47:45] Laura Camien: Trisha Hersey urges followers to use time that they might otherwise devote to extra work, to sleeping instead.

[47:53] Susan Blackwell: Bottom line, she feels like when we're that exhausted, we're just staring at screens.

[48:00] Laura Camien: We may be able to say, well, technically I did work for those two hours, but you're not getting much done.

[48:06] Susan Blackwell: You will do yourself a much bigger favor by napping and coming back to it.

[48:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[48:13] Susan Blackwell: Right?

[48:14] Laura Camien: She says that, like rather than being tense and worrying about disappointing others, that time would be better spent reflecting on our own needs and comforts.

[48:24] Susan Blackwell: It's about collectively refusing to run ourselves into the ground.

[48:28] Laura Camien: According to the New York Times, Hersey's point of view was inspired in part by studying slave testimony, two centuries of letters, speeches, interviews, and autobiographies while working in an archive library at Emory.

[48:42] Susan Blackwell: In reading these stories about the brutal origins of American capitalism, she realized that working to exhaustion was part of her inheritance.

[48:53] Laura Camien: Passed down through ancestors, distant and recent.

[49:00] Susan Blackwell: Railroad while helping to lead a church and devoting time to community activism, rarely took a moment to himself.

[49:08] Laura Camien: She is certain that beyond the heart disease and diabetes that precipitated his early death, it was overwork, she believes that killed him at 55.

[49:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[49:20] Laura Camien: Again, the New York Times says although Hersey's inspiration and imagery lie in the legacy of the enslaved and their descendants, the NAP ministry's message isn't directed only at Black people.

[49:32] Susan Blackwell: This is uh very important to Trisha Hersey.

[49:35] Laura Camien: She says she sees the treatment of black and indigenous people as a bellwether for how justly society is functioning overall, and stressed that everyone would benefit from questioning attitudes around work and productivity.

[49:51] Susan Blackwell: If you haven't already, check out her book, Rest is Resistance, a manifesto, as well as her in real life events where people gather together and take collective naps, or they meditate, or they otherwise provide space for themselves to rest.

[50:11] Laura Camien: I think her events sound amazing.

[50:15] Susan Blackwell: I'll admit something, maybe I've admitted this before, but I will admit it again.

[50:20] Laura Camien: Sometimes I think we still talk too much about being tired.

[50:24] Susan Blackwell: It's habitual.

[50:26] Laura Camien: Being an entrepreneur is tiring, there's no doubt.

[50:29] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, I know I've discovered, I don't want to speak for you, Suze, but I am far more rested doing what I love and embracing the idea that like we have a purpose.

[50:39] Laura Camien: We like wake up, we wake up with purpose, we wake up energized by our clients and the work that we're doing.

[50:48] Susan Blackwell: And I know that you and I are actively working to not recreate the environments that we've worked in in the past.

[50:56] Laura Camien: Like we do not reward ourselves or each other for sleep deprivation.

[51:02] Susan Blackwell: Like we are really working to break that habit and to question it and say, okay, so if we did not get that sleep, what part of this is on us?

[51:09] Laura Camien: What choices could we have made that would have allowed us to get the sleep that we need or allow us to get the rest that we need?

[51:16] Susan Blackwell: And I really appreciate that, Suza.

[51:18] Laura Camien: I just want to say, like, I feel a lot of gratitude towards you and just this work that we're doing and this thing we're building.

[51:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, agreed.

[51:29] Laura Camien: I was saying to Nathan just the other day, I was just shaking my head and recollecting the decades where I worked in offices where every day, I've probably said this on the podcast, every day at three o'clock-ish, I don't drink coffee.

[51:46] Susan Blackwell: And so I would just get hit with this fatigue.

[51:50] Laura Camien: And you would have to do that labor fake where you just like practically holding your eyes open at your desk and just powering through this very natural sort of biorhythmic cycle of fatigue.

[52:04] Susan Blackwell: And now, like when that hits, if we don't have anything scheduled, most days that's when I go and meditate.

[52:12] Laura Camien: That's right.

[52:12] Susan Blackwell: And if that meditation turns into a little nappage, then I know that nobody, nobody is gonna be wagging their finger at me.

[52:20] Laura Camien: No, in fact, when you return to the Zoom screen for the next meeting or work with another client or curriculum writing that we're doing together, whatever the case may be, you're gonna be a better, stronger Susan Blackwell.

[52:35] Susan Blackwell: And whether that person knows it or not, they're going to be reaping the benefits of you having taken a nap.

[52:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:42] Susan Blackwell: And be getting, you know, the full magic of you, which is pretty fucking amazing and magical.

[52:49] Laura Camien: Oh, it's magic.

[52:50] Susan Blackwell: Susan Blackwell is magic.

[52:51] Laura Camien: You guys ever notice that?

[52:53] Susan Blackwell: I notice it every day.

[52:54] Laura Camien: But seriously, there's no shame in it.

[52:57] Susan Blackwell: And um, we're trying to embrace it and we benefit from it.

[53:00] Laura Camien: We benefit and our clients benefit from it.

[53:02] Susan Blackwell: So rather than thinking like, oh gosh, what if like what if people knew I just took a nap right before this meeting?

[53:08] Laura Camien: Instead, realizing, like, yeah, I'm gonna take a little nap before this meeting because I'm gonna be my best.

[53:12] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna be fresh and ready when I talk to this client.

[53:16] Laura Camien: Hells yes.

[53:17] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[53:18] Laura Camien: So there's a lot more that we can control than we think.

[53:22] Susan Blackwell: And I like that we're looking at the choices, you know, that we've made.

[53:26] Laura Camien: Like, what choices did I make that kept me from resting?

[53:30] Susan Blackwell: If I could get that bedtime revenge procrastination under control, I would be more rested.

[53:36] Laura Camien: And I'm working on it, you know, or if I actually honored my day off as a day off, I'd be more rested.

[53:43] Susan Blackwell: So for right now, I will end by just simply saying I am focusing on shifting my mindset from I'll sleep when I'm dead to I will sleep so I can truly live.

[53:55] Laura Camien: Oh, I love that.

[53:57] Susan Blackwell: I'll sleep so I can truly live, Suze.

[53:59] Laura Camien: I love it.

[54:00] Susan Blackwell: This is so inspiring, and it's given me a lot to think about.

[54:05] Laura Camien: I was already thinking about some of this stuff, and it's given me some distinctions that I did not have before.

[54:13] Susan Blackwell: I was talking with my friend Nicole, when I recently visited Ohio to see family and friends, and she was talking about how it's kind of the opposite of the this suffering trophy.

[54:26] Laura Camien: She was like, Man, I was a champion plopper.

[54:29] Susan Blackwell: And I mean I can like plop, I can nap, I can rest.

[54:34] Laura Camien: Yeah, baby.

[54:35] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, let's hear it for the champion ploppers.

[54:38] Laura Camien: Yes, may we all plop a little more.

[54:40] Susan Blackwell: May we all plop a little more.

[54:43] Laura Camien: And with this whole like long, long history of this puritanical work ethic and the virtue of that and this, you know, the toxic lift.

[54:55] Susan Blackwell: Yes, all of it.

[54:57] Laura Camien: Let's hear it for the champion ploppers and may we be more like them.

[55:00] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[55:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, this is something I am truly, truly taking to heart.

[55:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:09] Laura Camien: And we'll um more on the story as it develops as well.

[55:13] Susan Blackwell: Let's build it better.

[55:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:15] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[55:16] Laura Camien: And let's prove like we can be our best selves.

[55:16] Susan Blackwell: We can be our better selves rested than we can, you know, pulling the all nighters and pushing through and all of all of it.

[55:26] Laura Camien: Oh God.

[55:27] Susan Blackwell: Let's sleep so we can live.

[55:29] Laura Camien: I love it.

[55:29] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[55:30] Laura Camien: Thanks, Seuss.

[55:31] Susan Blackwell: That's me spark for today.

[55:33] Laura Camien: That's me spark for the day.

[55:35] Susan Blackwell: And I guess that's it.

[55:36] Laura Camien: Friends, this episode of the Sparks Bile was made on the lands of the Lenape people.

[55:41] Susan Blackwell: And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[55:45] Laura Camien: If there's a spark that you'd like us to explore, thank you, Ebony Vines, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, you can email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com, or you can submit little love notes to us through our website, the sparkfile.com.

[56:05] Susan Blackwell: We will take them.

[56:06] Laura Camien: I love those little love notes at the sparkfile.com.

[56:09] Susan Blackwell: I do too.

[56:10] Laura Camien: Uh, you know what else we'll take, Suze?

[56:12] Susan Blackwell: We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission first you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently you can follow us on social at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe rate and five star review this podcast it really truly helps other listeners to find us also if you like this podcast we hope you'll share it freely with people that you love and if you didn't like this podcast go take a nap sleep it off sleep it off if you need to sleep it off if something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door it's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame you know you gotta take it and make it make it bye bye everybody get some rest when I bumped into something that inspires me I dump it in the spark files could be something that I wanna take or how I want to be I'll pump it in the spark files I jump into my spark files let's open up the sparkfile