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[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark spot.

[0:26] Susan Blackwell: Spark.

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my sparks live.

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparkfile, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:53] Laura Camien: If you're an OG member of the Sparkfile community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:57] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, well, welcome, you friend.

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: Welcome!

[1:03] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:09] Susan Blackwell: You also may be asking yourself, what exactly is a sparkfile?

[1:13] Laura Camien: A sparkfile is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:19] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:29] Laura Camien: But don't despair.

[1:50] Susan Blackwell: And then some.

[1:52] Laura Camien: I already love this episode.

[1:57] Susan Blackwell: I'm already obsessed.

[1:59] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:05] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:09] Laura Camien: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:14] Susan Blackwell: So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:20] Laura Camien: Without further ado, let's open up the spark pile.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: The spark pile.

[2:29] Laura Camien: You know, I'm already obsessed.

[2:33] Susan Blackwell: I'm already obsessed.

[2:34] Laura Camien: I'm so excited.

[2:36] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited.

[2:37] Laura Camien: I'm a little nervous the amount of time I've given thought to apologizing thoughtfully.

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: Girl, you do it thoughtfully.

[2:45] Laura Camien: Well you do, you do.

[2:48] Susan Blackwell: I appreciate that, but I am so into this.

[2:51] Laura Camien: Before we launch into your sparkly spark, yes, I would just love to take a moment to share this beautiful email that we received from a listener named Eric.

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: This just in.

[3:10] Laura Camien: Oh.

[3:11] Laura Camien: Eric writes, Hi Susan and Laura.

[3:14] Laura Camien: I just listened to the Creative Comfort Crisis episode, and I want to thank you.

[3:19] Laura Camien: I've been meaning to take a dance class for a while, and now I believe I can handle the discomfort of it.

[3:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, Eric.

[3:27] Laura Camien: Bless.

[3:28] Susan Blackwell: I wonder what kind of dance Eric wants to take.

[3:30] Laura Camien: Tell us more.

[3:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:32] Laura Camien: Tap.

[3:33] Laura Camien: Modern, modern floor work.

[3:36] Laura Camien: Tango.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: You know, I tried to talk, I tried to talk um Nathan into, I was like, what if we took these online pre-recorded video dance classes so that we could learn how to do, but the ones that I sort of shared with him, it almost had a they were like a very heteronormative man here.

[4:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:02] Susan Blackwell: And he was like, that's a little that feels like a live laugh love sign to me.

[4:08] Laura Camien: Oh.

[4:09] Susan Blackwell: And I'm into this, but I might need different teachers.

[4:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:13] Susan Blackwell: So I'm I'm with you, Eric.

[4:15] Laura Camien: This is this is thrilling.

[4:16] Susan Blackwell: Tell me more about Eric.

[4:18] Laura Camien: Okay.

[4:18] Laura Camien: Eric says, I also wanted to share a quick story since you mentioned improv.

[4:23] Susan Blackwell: Eric.

[4:24] Laura Camien: I've taken three improv classes.

[4:27] Susan Blackwell: Good on you, Eric.

[4:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:28] Laura Camien: But I'm still relatively a beginner.

[4:30] Laura Camien: When I showed up at my local improv theater for a jam, aka an open practice, I discovered that the jam was a musical improv jam.

[4:40] Susan Blackwell: Meaning that we'd have to improvise songs.

[4:43] Laura Camien: I'm not trained at all in singing, and I don't like to sing in front of others.

[4:47] Laura Camien: I took a deep breath and put my name on the list for the jam.

[4:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes.

[4:58] Laura Camien: It was not the best night because I performed well.

[5:01] Laura Camien: It was not the best night because I was funny.

[5:04] Laura Camien: It was the best because I did it.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Eric says, let me tell you, it was the best night of my year so far.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Woo!

[6:54] Laura Camien: I stretched my boundary a little farther that night, and I'm going back next music improv jam.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh, gratefully, Eric.

[6:54] Laura Camien: I want to clap, and I'm so aware that clapping into my microphone would not be pleasant for anyone, but I'm so excited.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Eric, that is that email.

[6:54] Laura Camien: It's beautiful, it's a beautifully written email.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: So good job.

[6:54] Laura Camien: It's a beautifully written email, but incredibly beautiful sentiment behind it all.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Isn't it great?

[6:54] Laura Camien: Wow.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: I have such great admiration for anybody, anybody knowing my own apprehensions and fears around improv specifically.

[6:54] Laura Camien: And then to just like swing for the fences, Eric, and do the musical improv jamboree.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Like that is good job.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Let's all be like Eric.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Let's all be like Eric.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[6:54] Laura Camien: That's very inspiring and so exciting.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: I think Eric's gonna have a great 2023.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: It's off to a great, great start.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm so psyched.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Thanks for sharing that.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Thank you for writing it.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Thank you for sharing it.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Thank you for living it, Eric.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Woo!

[6:54] Laura Camien: Beautiful.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Living it.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Living it.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh now back to you, baby cams.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Oh my god, I got a big old smile on my face.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: I'm not sure I can speak.

[6:54] Laura Camien: I know.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh God, that's good.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Okay.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Well, maybe today's episode will will spark a few people to do some things.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Let's get into it, shall we?

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Let's get into it.

[6:54] Laura Camien: All right, Suze.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Have you ever heard of the olive oil company Graza?

[6:52] Susan Blackwell: I have not.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Oh, okay.

[6:55] Laura Camien: Well, let me tell you something.

[6:59] Laura Camien: I only learned about them recently.

[7:01] Laura Camien: And I only learned about them because of a fuck up, you might say, because of a mistake or mistakes that they made that they needed to apologize for.

[7:13] Susan Blackwell: And now, spoiler alert, I am a big fan.

[7:18] Laura Camien: I'm a big fan.

[7:20] Laura Camien: So here's a little bit about Graza.

[7:23] Laura Camien: By the way, I learned all of this from a January 2023 article in the Washington Post by Ben Cohen.

[7:32] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[7:32] Laura Camien: So Graza is an olive oil company.

[7:35] Laura Camien: That is it.

[7:36] Laura Camien: That is all they do.

[7:38] Laura Camien: They're one year old.

[7:40] Laura Camien: They're a startup.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[7:43] Laura Camien: That has turned squeezable bottles of extra virgin olive oil into like the best thing since sliced bread.

[7:52] Susan Blackwell: Squeezable bottles of olive oil, Suze.

[7:54] Laura Camien: Why hadn't anyone thought of this before?

[7:56] Susan Blackwell: Crazy.

[7:57] Laura Camien: So it's like a plastic squeezable instead of a glass.

[8:01] Susan Blackwell: Instead of those glasses and always like, always they're tall and thin and hardly hold anything.

[8:06] Laura Camien: These are squeezable bottles.

[8:09] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[8:10] Laura Camien: Okay.

[8:11] Laura Camien: Andrew Bennin is the founder of Graza Olive Oil.

[8:16] Laura Camien: He's 30 years old.

[8:18] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[8:19] Laura Camien: 30.

[8:19] Laura Camien: He spent his 20s working for brands like Warby Parker and Casper.

[8:25] Laura Camien: And at the same time, he was apprenticing in like Michelin starred New York City restaurant kitchens.

[8:32] Susan Blackwell: He never imagined getting into the olive oil business except during the pandemic, he lived with his wife's family in Spain, and apparently during that time became obsessed with olive oil.

[8:45] Laura Camien: Sure.

[8:45] Laura Camien: And the more that Bennin dove into the world of olive oil, he found that there were so many snobby, overpriced olive oils.

[8:56] Laura Camien: And then on the other end of the spectrum, really cheap olive oils, uh, low quality olive oils.

[9:03] Laura Camien: And he wanted to find a sweet spot between like flavor and affordability.

[9:10] Susan Blackwell: So according to the Graza website, most olive oils in the U.S.

[9:14] Susan Blackwell: are blended from old, meaning not fresh, low quality oils.

[9:19] Laura Camien: Like they'll say it's made in Italy, but it's actually blended with other cheaper oils from around the world.

[9:26] Susan Blackwell: And then they put the Italy label on it.

[9:29] Laura Camien: Right.

[9:29] Laura Camien: So they are promoting it based on like, ooh, you know, these are olives from Italy, but probably it's mixed with a whole bunch of other stuff.

[9:37] Susan Blackwell: And also, yes, counterfeit food as well.

[9:40] Laura Camien: So it's like not it's not like low grade olive oil from other locations.

[9:45] Laura Camien: It can be all sorts of oils that oils of any kind.

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[9:51] Laura Camien: That's right.

[9:51] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[9:52] Laura Camien: And then on the other end of the spectrum, there's these super fancy olive oils that it feels like you can't or shouldn't use them every day.

[10:01] Susan Blackwell: They're like special occasion olive oils.

[10:04] Laura Camien: Right.

[10:05] Laura Camien: Graza olive oils are picked, pressed, bottled, and shipped all in the same season.

[10:12] Susan Blackwell: So super fresh, same season, and they put the harvest date right on the bottle.

[10:18] Laura Camien: They are never ever blended with other oils.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: Again, according to their website, real extra virgin olive oil is made from olives that are harvested early fall or winter and pressed as soon as possible.

[10:34] Laura Camien: So the oil stays fresh, delicious, and full of polyphenols.

[10:40] Susan Blackwell: Those are the healthy things, the healthy stuff that makes you live a long time.

[10:44] Laura Camien: Most bottles that are labeled extra virgin aren't the real deal, but Graza is and always will be, as they say on their website.

[10:53] Susan Blackwell: And again, they come in squeezable bottles, and they cost like 15 to 20 dollars per bottle.

[11:00] Laura Camien: It's not super cheap, but it's also not super snobby.

[11:04] Susan Blackwell: Not $30 a bottle for like a little tiny glass.

[11:07] Laura Camien: Or a little thing.

[11:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:09] Laura Camien: So they're making high quality olive oil accessible essentially.

[11:13] Susan Blackwell: And they don't have a million different kinds, Suze.

[11:16] Laura Camien: They have two.

[11:17] Laura Camien: They have sizzle and they have drizzle.

[11:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh, smart.

[11:21] Laura Camien: Sizzle and drizzle.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: So sizzle is for cooking with, heating up in a pan.

[11:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:26] Laura Camien: Drizzle is for use on salads and popcorn and anything else you might drizzle your olive oil over.

[11:32] Susan Blackwell: It's simple, it's clear, accessible.

[11:35] Laura Camien: You know I love the messaging on that.

[11:37] Susan Blackwell: It's just like it's delightful.

[11:40] Laura Camien: I'm like, sizzle, drizzle.

[11:42] Laura Camien: I know what to do here.

[11:43] Laura Camien: It was apparently clear to everyone that this was a genius idea, all of it, because they opened for business in January of last year, and within the first week, Susan, the first week, Whole Foods called them.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[11:58] Laura Camien: And I like that.

[12:00] Laura Camien: It's very specific.

[12:02] Laura Camien: They didn't call Whole Foods.

[12:02] Laura Camien: Whole Foods called them within their first week.

[12:05] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[12:06] Laura Camien: Then they were in food and wine and bon appétit, and everyone on Instagram was going crazy for them.

[12:12] Susan Blackwell: Now their olive oils are sold in stores across the country as well as on the Graza website.

[12:19] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[12:19] Laura Camien: I'm just like, what do they do?

[12:21] Laura Camien: Well, what do they do?

[12:24] Laura Camien: Bennin spends like eight months a year now in Spain overseeing the farming, picking, pressing, and bottling, and the rest of the year in Brooklyn.

[12:32] Susan Blackwell: And everything was I knew it was Brooklyn.

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: When you were like a combination between Michelin Star restaurants and working at Warby Parker and Casper was like, I smell Brooklyn all over this guy.

[12:44] Laura Camien: He's he's Brooklyn.

[12:46] Susan Blackwell: He's totally Brooklyn.

[12:47] Laura Camien: Due respect to Brooklyn, yes.

[12:49] Susan Blackwell: So everything was working out perfectly until the dreaded until.

[12:54] Laura Camien: So what had happened was Graza was going gangbusters all year, their first year, no complaints at all.

[13:03] Laura Camien: But then came their very first holiday season.

[13:07] Laura Camien: The orders came in faster than they could keep up with after the olive oils were featured in tons of gift guides around the country.

[13:16] Susan Blackwell: They had customers that had ordered sets like gift sets, and they thought they'd get, for example, like three sets of two bottles that they would gift to people, a sizzle and a drizzle, right?

[13:29] Laura Camien: Sure.

[13:30] Laura Camien: But instead, what they got was like a box with six bottles just bouncing around loose in a box.

[13:37] Susan Blackwell: They were dented and the logos were peeling.

[13:40] Laura Camien: And then after a blizzard, as we recall the great blizzard of the holiday season last year, most of those gifts didn't make it in time for the holidays.

[13:50] Susan Blackwell: And as far as corporate crises go, this wasn't the worst ever, right?

[13:55] Laura Camien: I'm not describing like a scandal here.

[13:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but it really does.

[13:59] Laura Camien: It makes people real mad when something that they thought they were going to gift when it's time sensitive.

[14:05] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[14:06] Laura Camien: So Bennin was not proud of how his company had done in their first holiday season.

[14:12] Laura Camien: So he did something that most companies try to avoid doing publicly, if at all possible.

[14:20] Susan Blackwell: He took responsibility.

[14:22] Laura Camien: He and he alone, that's the crazy part, we'll come back to, but he alone drafted an apology to the 35,000 customers who had ordered from their website, like in the past 60 days.

[14:38] Susan Blackwell: And according to the Washington Post article, Bennin wrote the apology letter in a couple of hours.

[14:44] Laura Camien: He didn't proofread it.

[14:46] Laura Camien: He didn't run it through legal.

[14:49] Susan Blackwell: And I just want to offer just a little splash of context here.

[14:52] Susan Blackwell: I have done my fair share of corporate communications, internal and external, now in the entertainment and education sectors, shall we say, but still to send an apology letter to all of your customers is highly unusual.

[15:09] Laura Camien: To send a heartfelt, truly apologetic letter that takes full responsibility without it going through a board or a steering committee, and usually a team of lawyers, no fucking way.

[15:24] Susan Blackwell: No, you don't, you just don't do it.

[15:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:27] Susan Blackwell: But that is exactly what Benin did.

[15:29] Laura Camien: And according to the Washington Post, the Mia Culpa from a one-year-old company with the subject line learning from our mistakes was just about the opposite of a typical corporate response.

[15:43] Susan Blackwell: It explained in plain English and candid detail what went wrong and why.

[15:49] Laura Camien: It took accountability for those errors and it offered a discount on future orders.

[15:54] Susan Blackwell: It was raw, transparent about uncertainty and messy with typos and misspellings.

[16:02] Laura Camien: Wow.

[16:03] Susan Blackwell: It was also right.

[16:06] Laura Camien: Ah it was also, the Washington Post says, oddly entertaining and strangely charming.

[16:15] Susan Blackwell: Huh.

[16:15] Laura Camien: So at this point in the article, I was number one, sparked by the olive oil company and their products.

[16:21] Susan Blackwell: Do I need to say them again? Sizzle and drizzle in squeezable bottles.

[16:25] Laura Camien: What?

[16:25] Susan Blackwell: And number two, I was riveted by the idea of this apology letter.

[16:30] Laura Camien: I mean, what had he said and done that was so different that it was worthy of its own media coverage?

[16:36] Susan Blackwell: I'm reading an article about a positive apology letter.

[16:40] Laura Camien: What?

[16:41] Susan Blackwell: Like this is crazy media coverage.

[16:43] Laura Camien: And then number three, I had to know how his customers responded.

[16:49] Susan Blackwell: So first, what did he write in the letter?

[16:52] Laura Camien: Okay.

[16:52] Susan Blackwell: First of all, the letter sounded like a human being.

[16:55] Laura Camien: Like it sounded like a person.

[16:57] Susan Blackwell: It had typos and conversational language, which while would not be recommended by a team of lawyers, actually made people trust him more.

[17:07] Laura Camien: Bottom line, it felt authentic.

[17:10] Susan Blackwell: And you know I'm a big fan of that.

[17:16] Laura Camien: He told the truth.

[17:17] Susan Blackwell: They had not lived up to the expectations of their customers or to their own expectations.

[17:23] Laura Camien: Number three, he listed all of the categories of complaints in a short blurb elaborating on the problems.

[17:31] Susan Blackwell: He did not let the fact that some of the customers who would get this email didn't have any problems.

[17:36] Laura Camien: And so by sending it to everybody, he was actually disclosing problems to them that they hadn't even been aware of.

[17:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[17:44] Laura Camien: But he seemed driven to try to send something that was as close to sending individual handwritten notes as possible.

[17:52] Susan Blackwell: So by naming all of the problems specifically, he helped people realize that they had been heard.

[18:01] Laura Camien: He was literally mirroring back to people.

[18:04] Susan Blackwell: What I've heard you say is the labels were peeling, the bottles were leaking.

[18:09] Laura Camien: Then he promised to do better and he offered to make it up to people at a cost to his own business.

[18:16] Susan Blackwell: According to the Washington Post article, the most effective apologies come with a financial cost, says Ben Ho, for corporations at least.

[18:26] Laura Camien: Ben Ho, a Vassar College economics professor.

[18:29] Susan Blackwell: In one experiment studying customer behavior after millions of late Uber arrivals, he found that writers preferred $5 coupons without apologies to apologies without compensation.

[18:43] Laura Camien: Money literally helps by forgiveness.

[18:48] Susan Blackwell: But there was something different about Mr. Bennon's offer.

[18:50] Laura Camien: He didn't round up to five dollars.

[18:59] Susan Blackwell: Remember, there's still a startup.

[19:05] Laura Camien: And he said, that is all we can afford.

[19:08] Susan Blackwell: Somehow, by going with the lesser but super specific number, he actually gained more trust with customers.

[19:17] Laura Camien: Oh, and he did something that totally pissed off his marketing department.

[19:20] Susan Blackwell: He left out the company's website.

[19:22] Laura Camien: There was no link to it.

[19:25] Susan Blackwell: No pushing through.

[19:28] Laura Camien: And he says that was intentional.

[19:30] Susan Blackwell: He felt that like dropping the link in would only make it feel like a sales letter.

[19:36] Laura Camien: And I'm sure he's right.

[19:38] Susan Blackwell: I'm totally sure he's right.

[19:40] Laura Camien: Also, though, if you don't drop the link in, it's an extra step for somebody to go back on the website and get their $4.44 discount.

[19:51] Susan Blackwell: It's true.

[19:52] Laura Camien: You could argue that it makes it easier for them.

[19:55] Susan Blackwell: But he was like, he felt adamant. Nope, I'm not linking to it.

[20:00] Laura Camien: So how did his customers react to his apology letter?

[20:03] Susan Blackwell: Get him.

[20:04] Laura Camien: Get him.

[20:06] Susan Blackwell: Apparently, he got replies from nearly a thousand customers.

[20:10] Laura Camien: I mean, that's weird.

[20:11] Susan Blackwell: Just replying to what seems like an automated email.

[20:14] Laura Camien: But almost immediately they started coming in.

[20:17] Susan Blackwell: And according to the Washington Post, they said things like, Thanks for your honesty.

[20:22] Laura Camien: I wish more businesses did the same.

[20:24] Susan Blackwell: And I won't be using the discount, but I will be reordering.

[20:29] Laura Camien: So, in short, by being a true human, mistakes and all, and owning what was their responsibility, Benin won back customers and gained many more.

[20:41] Susan Blackwell: Like the crazy thing about this is that the writer of the piece in the Washington Post had been a customer and one of the disappointed ones.

[20:49] Laura Camien: Like he was like, I'm not happy with this.

[20:51] Susan Blackwell: He had ordered gifts for the holidays that arrived with oil leaking from the bottles, no gift packaging, et cetera.

[20:59] Laura Camien: But after the apology email he received, he was even more of a fan.

[21:04] Susan Blackwell: And he says the very next time he went to the store, he came home with more bottles of Graza.

[21:09] Laura Camien: And then he wrote about it, and people like me became fans.

[21:13] Susan Blackwell: I hadn't even heard of them before.

[21:15] Laura Camien: Right.

[21:16] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[21:17] Laura Camien: It's amazing that a memorable, true apology can leave a company in a better position than before it had reason to apologize.

[21:26] Susan Blackwell: And of course, the same can be true of relationships, personal and professional.

[21:33] Laura Camien: Marjorie Ingall, the co-author of the new book, Sorry, sorry, sorry, has written stop right there, folks.

[21:33] Susan Blackwell: Stop right there.

[21:42] Laura Camien: Fantastic.

[21:43] Susan Blackwell: That's really good.

[21:44] Laura Camien: Marjorie Ingall has written about apologies for a decade now on the blog that I am now obsessed with called Sorry Watch.

[21:54] Susan Blackwell: Marjorie Ingall says the rules for an effective, appropriate apology are the same for everyone.

[22:00] Laura Camien: Adults, children, corporations.

[22:02] Susan Blackwell: Number one, say you're sorry for what you did.

[22:06] Laura Camien: Number two, show you understand why it was bad.

[22:11] Susan Blackwell: Number three, only explain if you need to.

[22:23] Laura Camien: Number five, offer to make up for it.

[22:27] Susan Blackwell: Now on mindful.org, they have only three qualifications for a sincere apology, but they're very, very similar.

[22:34] Laura Camien: Mindful.org says a high quality apology, number one, accepts responsibility for the wrong and doesn't even hint that outside forces or the victim, anything else caused the offender to do what they did.

[22:49] Susan Blackwell: Number two, it's unqualified.

[22:52] Laura Camien: If the apology contains a but, it fails.

[22:56] Susan Blackwell: There is a time later after the injury has had time to heal to bring up any qualifications that might be relevant for future interactions.

[23:05] Laura Camien: And number three, it offers to make amends, such as offering to help someone you previously blew off or making a sincere effort to avoid the transgression in the future.

[23:17] Susan Blackwell: It's so simple, right?

[23:19] Laura Camien: But why does it feel so hard to get an apology and sometimes to give an apology?

[23:28] Susan Blackwell: Well, according to ideas.t.com, for some people, admitting wrongdoing and offering an apology is too psychologically threatening.

[23:42] Laura Camien: Offering an apology implies that they have harmed another person in some way, which can elicit feelings of shame.

[23:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[23:52] Laura Camien: So there's a, you know, a couple of categories it can fall into, but people who can't apologize often have such deep feelings of low self-worth that their fragile egos cannot absorb the blow of admitting they were wrong.

[24:08] Susan Blackwell: So their defense mechanisms kick in, sometimes unconsciously, and they may externalize any blame and even dispute basic facts in order to ward off the threat of having to lower themselves by offering an apology.

[24:22] Laura Camien: Another reason apologizing is hard is because it can be hell on your self image.

[24:27] Susan Blackwell: If you believe yourself to be a decent, caring, sensitive, moral person.

[24:35] Laura Camien: Having to apologize means admitting you are not what you say you are or believe yourself to be.

[24:41] Susan Blackwell: When really even decent, caring, sensitive moral people make mistakes.

[24:46] Laura Camien: It's just a mistake.

[24:47] Susan Blackwell: It's not, it doesn't mean that you aren't those things.

[24:50] Laura Camien: But then, of course, there's narcissism or a lack of empathy that keeps a person from being able to imagine another person's hurt.

[24:58] Susan Blackwell: I think all of this is so fascinating.

[25:01] Laura Camien: I mean, obviously, in regard to interpersonal relationships, but also as creatives, like in regard to character development, when we write stories, for example, and a character gets defensive or will not admit blame or apologize.

[25:17] Susan Blackwell: It might not be because they're an asshole, although that is an option, but it can also be because it's too scary.

[25:26] Laura Camien: They're too fragile emotionally, and it's not because they don't care, it's because they care a whole lot, and they just can't admit that they fucked up something that they care a lot about.

[25:39] Susan Blackwell: Like it might hit upon an area that they take great amount of pride in, and they cannot admit to a mistake in that area.

[25:48] Laura Camien: Before we go any further, Seuss, I just thought I would pause here and chit chat a little bit and ask you a couple of questions.

[25:58] Susan Blackwell: Have you ever had an apology that you wish would come but never did?

[26:05] Laura Camien: Or it did come but it was disappointing in some way, or have you ever had a hard time apologizing for something?

[26:14] Susan Blackwell: Just what are your thoughts about these apologies? Because I know you've given apologies a lot of thought.

[26:20] Laura Camien: I have given apologies a lot of thought.

[26:23] Susan Blackwell: I've studied on this a bit, and I like hearing these other sort of like, here's a framework, here's a framework.

[26:31] Laura Camien: I do enjoy hearing that.

[26:33] Susan Blackwell: And of course, I hold up significant apologies that I have offered to people, and I'm like, I wonder if I if I did it well enough.

[26:33] Laura Camien: I wonder if I did it according to those frameworks or not.

[26:44] Susan Blackwell: Of course.

[26:45] Laura Camien: But I think about yes, there are times when there are apologies that I wish would have come that never did.

[26:54] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes I think it's because the person is in so much of their own pain that they can't see anything or feel anything, yeah, but their own pain.

[27:09] Laura Camien: And so they certainly can't get through that forest to be like, oh, somebody else might be in pain. You know, that's a hypothesis.

[27:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And then I just want to where my mind also goes is um, I'll keep this a blind item, but I have a really, really cherished friend who I inadvertently fucked up with.

[27:34] Laura Camien: And the way that I fucked up is this.

[27:36] Susan Blackwell: I don't say this as an excuse, I just say it by way of explanation.

[27:40] Laura Camien: When we were growing up, I never really learned to do things like write thank you notes, respond to RSVPs, like all these sort of like social customs and niceties.

[27:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[27:52] Laura Camien: I never saw my parents do it.

[27:54] Susan Blackwell: They never impressed it upon us.

[27:56] Laura Camien: I have friends who have kids who are like when the kid receives a gift, they're like, sit your ass down and write the thank you note right now.

[28:05] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[28:05] Laura Camien: And we I never I I just never learned that.

[28:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:08] Laura Camien: And it's something I have carried into my adulthood.

[28:12] Susan Blackwell: Like, I really have to make a conscious effort to remember thank you notes.

[28:18] Laura Camien: And also, I'm ashamed to admit this to RSVP to things.

[28:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[28:23] Laura Camien: And especially if I'm declining.

[28:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[28:26] Laura Camien: I'll get these beautiful, like very, very thoughtful invitations.

[28:32] Susan Blackwell: And I sometimes because of social anxiety, sometimes because uh I want to be in all places all the time, and so I fail all of it.

[28:41] Laura Camien: But like in any event, this person invited me to their wedding, their very small, very intimate wedding, and I never RSVP'd.

[28:52] Susan Blackwell: And the next time I saw that person some months later, they were really angry, rightfully so.

[29:00] Laura Camien: And you know, they had been at my wedding and you know, really been an active part of my wedding, and it and I just I just really fucked up.

[29:11] Susan Blackwell: And they were really mad, and I owned it and apologized and tried to impress upon them how important they were in my life, and that I really fucked up, and that my lack of response was not an indicator of how I feel about them and their importance in in my life and in my heart.

[29:36] Laura Camien: And they accepted my apology.

[29:41] Susan Blackwell: And we were to this was years and years and years and years and years ago.

[29:45] Laura Camien: And I've tried to learn from that and get better about responding to invitations and things like that. And I probably still fuck up, but then I was having a conversation with them years later, and it was just the two of us, and I could cry right now thinking about this. To be able to say to them all these years later, decades into our friendship, to say how thankful and how grateful I am to them that they had the grace to accept my apology. Because I've also made really, really sincere apologies to people that they have not accepted. That they have been hurt to the point where they're and it's so I feel embarrassed and a little bit ashamed even saying this because it's like, yeah, I'm one of those people I think of myself as being like quite like a thoughtful, sensitive person.

And with all that, one can still do things that's right that I wouldn't even call it a fuck up, but one can make choices, conscious choices, that really clash with someone else, and it can really hurt them. And so I have I regret to inform all you listeners that I am someone who has hurt people to the extent that they have not accepted my apology, and that has been excruciating, and I've had to learn to live with that.

[31:21] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I have to say, A ditto, I'm the same. And I wonder: is there any person among us who couldn't say that same thing that they have fucked up and that there are people who have not forgiven them for those fuck-ups? Like I I'm hard-pressed to think of a human being on this earth that that wouldn't be true about. Except maybe the people who never apologize, and maybe they're like, Yeah, yeah, I never did apologize. It's on that. You know what I mean? And don't take responsibility. But for the rest of us, all we can do is try to apologize thoughtfully and sincerely and with authenticity.

[32:03] Laura Camien: Yeah. And then and then it's out of our hands. And like you said, like try to do better the next time so that we don't keep repeating that. But I think in that story, Suze, I've probably got 10 of those. Non-RSVPs on days that were important to other people. And what feels accurate to me that is not an excuse because it's 100% on me. The fact that I don't want the answer to be no, I can't come. And so I avoid sending the answer, no, I can't come. Yeah. I want somehow like something is going to intervene and it's going to change my travel schedule and it's gonna change my financial situation. It's gonna change my availability for that weekend, and somehow suddenly I'll be able to go. Wouldn't that be great?

[32:51] Susan Blackwell: Right. And so avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid. And now it's too late to send the RSVP because the wedding's tomorrow, and now I'm a terrible person. Yeah. And it has nothing to do with not wanting to be there, it has to do with wanting to be there. When that happened, and I could say this in all sincerity and honesty to my friend, I told her, I saved your invitation in my scrapbook. Oh I saved your I I failed to RSVP to it. Yeah. But it was so beautiful, and it was obviously a very important day in her life. And I saved it. I saved her invitation, my scrapbook, even before I knew that she had gotten really, really angry. So I that makes sense to me. That thing that you're saying about I don't want it to be true that I have to say no to you.

[33:42] Laura Camien: Yeah. And I think if I'm honest with myself, there's that part of me, that people pleasing part of me that's just like, oh, I don't want them to be like, oh, Susan can't come. But I'll tell you, that is a far sight better than not responding at all. Oh, Susan never told me whether or not she could come. That yeah, that's a different feeling. But either way, you didn't want to cause any kind of negative feeling in your friend. And ended up by trying to avoid that, ended up making it bigger. There's something that you just said as well that I think is super important, whether the party accepts the apology or does not. Whether they accept the apology or they don't, I think a critical piece of this is what do we make of it? Like taking learning from a painful situation like that and incorporating the learning into one's life.

[34:39] Susan Blackwell: Now there are things that learnings like that that we're incorporating into our life right now. We've talked about it as recently as this week. And then there are things that I think are it's like a longer arc of understanding situations that are years old, that I am still consciously working to understand my part in it so that I can do better by knowing better. And then if I'm honest, I think there are times when I'm like, some of this has nothing to do with me. When I look back over my life, certainly there are a ton of situations that I'm fully responsible for. There are others that I think I spent years attempting to fix. Yeah. Attempting to somehow be different, do different, to please a person, only to realize, like years into it like, oh, this was not mine to carry. This was not my burden to bear. And I just dedicated years to it. And I'd like those years back.

[35:54] Laura Camien: All of that is the people pleaser in us. It's all of the like I'm somehow responsible for every bad thing that happens. I know for me that that goes all the way back to being a child of a narcissist. And it's like someone in the room is upset, and it must be something I've done. I must be able to fix it. And it's like, no, that person barely knows you, and the what they're going through today doesn't have anything to do with you. But it doesn't matter. I would take that on anyway, somehow, and and be convinced that I could do something to fix it. Right.

[36:29] Susan Blackwell: Um, so it is such an interesting thing because there's apology and there's forgiveness. And they are two different things. They are two different things. And all we have control over in a situation like that is our part of it. Like, if I'm the apologizing party, that's all that I can control. And how somebody receives it or deflects it, or doesn't respond to it, or gets angrier because of it, like that is we we can't control that. And vice versa.

[37:02] Laura Camien: That's right. And I have had pathetic apologies, like a terrible, terrible apology. You've written about bad apologies. I feel like in Echo Speaks, there's an apology that's sort of like, I'm sorry you feel that way. Like, I'm sorry you felt that way. You know what that is? That line is like, she's learned that there are ways of apologizing without ever admitting she was wrong. There you go. Because, and this is like somehow part of her evolution of like, oh, you can do that. You can say, I'm sorry you feel that way. That old workaround.

[37:37] Susan Blackwell: That old workaround, which is something, and again, that show has a lot to do with being a child of a narcissist, and this realization of the subtle word play that is manipulative, and I learned it from a narcissist. And then, of course, I'm like, no, you can't do that. That is not who you want to be, and not how you want to live. But I did have a terrible apology from probably like the worst relationship of my life. But I learned a lot from it, but it was just miserable. And eventually the apology came that was just a non-apology. But I believe they believed they were apologizing.

[38:23] Laura Camien: The non-apology apologies. Speaking of narcissists, but I was like, okay. So speaking of those, like forgiveness could be its own spark because it is something else. And I decided, like, oh, it's this is part of a growing up process for me, realizing like, A, I can acknowledge this apology was lame. B, I can still decide I'm gonna forgive this person, and I'm forgiving this person really for me, because I just don't want to carry this around. And I can forgive this person, and that also doesn't mean that they get access to me and my life. 100%.

[39:02] Susan Blackwell: And that was like the biggest gift, and the most wonderful thing that I could be like, oh my gosh, I'm not carrying anything around from this, except the learning, obviously, of the the learning that I I want to keep from that experience. Um, I think people are like, well, forgiveness needs to look this way. Then you let that person back in to the spot in your life, you know, where they want to be. Like, no, no, no, I can forgive you. And that's there's no vacancy. Yes, that's right. The second part release. But it is so it's so interesting to me. Apologies, forgiveness. This website that I mentioned earlier, Suze, sorry watch.

[39:44] Laura Camien: Yeah, it is an incredible source of sparks. You know how I said to you the other day that I was like, Well, I was almost done with my spark, and then I fell down this rabbit hole. Yes, this was the rabbit hole. They analyze apologies in the media from history, literature, celebrities, all of it. And I went down such a deep hole on the I'm not even, I barely even cracked the surface. I can't even with this site. But what they'll do is like publish apologies, annotate them, literally take them sentence by sentence and spell out what the person was trying to do here, how they're trying to manipulate or avoid blame, and all the ways the apology goes wrong.

[40:29] Susan Blackwell: They have everything you could ever imagine about apologies and every type of apology, the categories, Suze. Just to highlight a few. They have historical apologies, academic apologies, true crime apologies, personal apologies, sports apologies, corporate apologies, fashion, bro apologies, which is really cute. She's got like the essentials of a good apology. She has apology bingo. Seriously, apology bingo. Phrases you can listen for in terrible apologies and play a game of bingo. Phrases like, I'm sorry if actually, not my intention, the allegations against me, to anyone who was offended, if it sounded like if I cross the line, like these phrases that come up over and over again when someone isn't truly taking responsibility.

[41:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, one of the interesting things she writes about is the need to use the word apologize rather than regret. Because the word regret is about your feelings. And while it might be true that you regret your actions, apologies are not about your feelings. They are about the other person's feelings. So you always want to keep it about that other person and not just like, you know, those apologies that are like, I regret doing this, I've lost sleep night after night, I feel so terrible. Okay, good to know, but this isn't really about you. This is about the person that you hurt. These are the subtle differences.

[42:15] Susan Blackwell: So this website even has a section of artistic apologies. Oh. And in that section, I discovered this gem that I love so much. I'm absolutely obsessed. Marjorie Ingalls writes about a gallery show that she saw last year called Mistakes Were Made by the artist Jennifer Dalton. And you know, I think we've talked about this on an episode before, Suze. I love the phrase. It was the title of a book I bought just based on the title alone. Mistakes were made, but not by me. That's right. Fucking love it. Mistakes were made by not by me. I've been obsessed with that phrase and the way it takes zero responsibility for anything.

[43:00] Laura Camien: So mistakes were made. If I saw a gallery show with that title, I would be like, oh my God, count me in. Where do I buy my ticket? Where do I buy my merch? I'm all about this. And as I got into it, Suze, there's something about this exhibit that I think is going to tickle you as well. And you even mentioned it earlier. So it's so beautiful and serendipitous. So the gallery show was in a small gallery in Germantown, New York called Mother-in-Law's. And the whole aesthetic was kind of like a cabin set up like a Hallmark store. As you approached it, there were apology themed doormats, like the house was clean yesterday. Sorry you missed it. And sorry if you trip over my wiener with a picture of a little Dotson, like a little dog. How cute is that?

[43:57] Susan Blackwell: And then when you go inside, there are apology-themed chotch keys everywhere, like tote bags that say tote sorry. And then there are the signs. There was a wall of art that quotes real celebrity apologies from people like Bill Clinton, Lance Armstrong, Kevin Spacey, Jeffrey Tubin, and so many more. And you kind of have to jog your memory as to who said what. For example, Bill Clinton's apology included the line, I gave in to my shame. But to add another layer of genius to this whole exhibit, the artist Jennifer Dalton.

[44:37] Susan Blackwell: The signs that she created are made in that faux authentic vibe, like those signs that you buy at Target or Michael's or on Amazon that are made to look like they are handcrafted.

[44:50] Laura Camien: Yes.

[44:50] Susan Blackwell: They're your favorite Sues.

[44:52] Laura Camien: Live, love, love.

[44:53] Susan Blackwell: They are the live laugh love fonts.

[44:55] Laura Camien: Baby!

[44:56] Susan Blackwell: And so she made them in this aesthetic with that sort of like bridesmaid script fonts and similar fonts like that.

[45:04] Laura Camien: Yes.

[45:04] Susan Blackwell: According to the press release for the exhibit, Dalton said she was interested in the faux artisanal aesthetic of a product that has handmade printed on its packaging, meets the fake sincerity and false warmth of words composed by crisis managers.

[45:23] Laura Camien: So she put these two things together, like these false apologies with false artisanal aesthetics.

[45:32] Susan Blackwell: Dalton told Sorry Watch, I need to go in towards the thing that bothers me.

[45:39] Laura Camien: And to that we say, fuck yes.

[45:41] Susan Blackwell: She said, and this aesthetic has been really bothering me.

[45:45] Laura Camien: This rustic wood thing in your Airbnb that someone bought at Michael's feels of a piece with the fake sentimentality of the horrible looping wedding font.

[45:58] Susan Blackwell: It's this sanctioned way for any sentiment to look cute.

[46:02] Laura Camien: And I was thinking about why I hated that font so much.

[46:06] Susan Blackwell: And then there was the fakeness and the sameness of public apologies.

[46:11] Laura Camien: This we need to be authentic in our true self thing, but then it's all the same.

[46:23] Susan Blackwell: This tickles me.

[46:24] Laura Camien: This is a really funny idea.

[46:26] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[46:27] Laura Camien: You can see why I'm obsessed.

[46:30] Susan Blackwell: Yes, Jennifer Dalton.

[46:31] Laura Camien: Jennifer Dalton, if you are out there, we are fans.

[46:31] Susan Blackwell: We are fans.

[46:40] Laura Camien: All of this leads into my what have we make of it? And I've already said a few things, and so have you, but this spark really could go on and on, like the recent political landscape and the rise of people who believe in and take pride in the fact that they never apologize, that apologizing is weak, or the ever-present sorry, not sorry cultural phenomenon, or the trope of women who over apologize.

[47:05] Susan Blackwell: I have been guilty of this.

[47:07] Laura Camien: I told you the story, I think, on the podcast of basically being told not to apologize for things that I wasn't responsible for because essentially, not everything is about you.

[47:17] Susan Blackwell: I think I told you that story.

[47:19] Laura Camien: I will never forget it.

[47:20] Susan Blackwell: But essentially, apologies or lack of apologies are trending.

[47:27] Laura Camien: Like they're everywhere you look.

[47:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:29] Laura Camien: And in the cancel culture, the way someone apologizes or not is a test.

[47:36] Susan Blackwell: It's a moment where sincere and authentic taking of responsibility is called for.

[47:40] Laura Camien: And yet all eyes are on people.

[47:43] Susan Blackwell: Like, how are they going to apologize?

[47:45] Laura Camien: All of this like just adds up to sparks galore, in my opinion.

[47:50] Susan Blackwell: So, as I mentioned before, if you're a writer, consider what your characters might apologize for or not. What would be the hardest thing for them to apologize for? Make it difficult for them to apologize. Like make it the apology like a twist in the gut, and they can either do it or not do it.

[48:11] Laura Camien: And that's information about this character.

[48:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I think it's interesting to me watching someone grapple through, I know I need to apologize, but also I really want to be right about this.

[48:26] Laura Camien: That's high drama.

[48:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. To me, like that is high drama. Or the character who is looking for an apology, but cannot state directly or clearly what it is they're upset about.

[48:36] Laura Camien: The passive aggressive victim.

[48:38] Susan Blackwell: That could be high comedy. Or do like Jennifer Dalton did and make art out of false apologies. Apologies we've gotten or not gotten. Apologies we've personally failed at and would like to do over. There's apology songs and apology poems, so many opportunities to be inspired by apology.

[48:58] Laura Camien: Personally, I have to say, I've been sparked to write a few apology letters to people who I feel I need to apologize to.

[49:07] Susan Blackwell: And I may not ever send them.

[49:09] Laura Camien: Who knows?

[49:10] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh. But I do think having that do-over moment could be cathartic.

[49:16] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[49:17] Susan Blackwell: So as I read on Sorry Watch, does an apology erase the past? Of course not. But an apology still has value. A good one can help people who are hurt and angry feel better. That's not nothing. And a good apology actually can be restorative to those hurt, to bystanders, to the person who did wrong, and even to the wider world.

[49:45] Laura Camien: Suze, I truly intended to give you a wrap-up of this spark that would be super inspirational and divine. But I simply ran out of time. So I'll be over here crafting the perfect apology to you and our listeners. I'll get it to you soon.

[50:03] Susan Blackwell: I can't wait to hear and maybe more appropriately off mic a little bit more about who you feel like you have stuff to clean up with.

[50:14] Laura Camien: Oh, so I'll do it. I'll tell you all about it.

[50:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[50:17] Laura Camien: Yeah. You know how we were talking about how forgiveness is something it's it it happens inside of us and it's for us.

[50:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[50:27] Laura Camien: Yeah. I think to a certain extent, apologies are that as well. They're for us, but they're also for the other person.

[50:34] Susan Blackwell: So do you know what I mean?

[50:36] Laura Camien: I do.

[50:37] Susan Blackwell: I do. Like, I think an apology is an opportunity for you to live up to the kind of person you want to be, or the kind of person you see yourself as. If you can truly apologize for a moment when you didn't live up to it. You're like, I failed myself in that moment, and I failed this person. But I think these things that I've read recently for This Spark were really about how in that moment of apology, if you cannot make it about yourself at all, it's really about the other person's feelings.

[51:12] Laura Camien: But you can't deny, I think, that we become better people when we step up to the plate in that moment.

[51:21] Susan Blackwell: It's for us too.

[51:22] Laura Camien: Here's where I get a little bit hung up. I get a little bit hung up in that space that we were just talking about, where I have a pretty healthy suspicion that there's something in that person that I'm like, this does not have a lot to do with me.

[51:44] Susan Blackwell: So I can offer my apology for my part of this situation, but I think where I get hung up is where their behavior then is such that I'm like, now I'd like an apology from you for taking this out on me when I suspect it might not have anything to do with me.

[52:05] Laura Camien: I get tripped up by that.

[52:06] Susan Blackwell: And all of that is to say life is not the movies, life is not a TV show, life is not even a kindergarten classroom where things are more clear-cut and black and white and conflict can be resolved, and we can have the denouement, you know, in a tidy little package. Sometimes in our adult world, these things are more complex and nuanced.

[52:36] Laura Camien: They're complicated and they're very shaded.

[52:36] Susan Blackwell: It's just not as clean cut.

[52:40] Laura Camien: But what I am taking away from you is in the process of apologizing, there's a time where it's like, in so much as you are able to sort of take your feelings, your hurt, your explanations, like set that to the side, and just a clean, healthy apology to the apology receiver, whatever you call that, and then maybe you deal with the other stuff later.

[53:09] Susan Blackwell: Well, I think that in an ideal world, both people would have equal amounts of self-reflection. And I mean, sometimes I suppose it's incredibly clear that one person did nothing wrong. Like they're the picture of perfection, and the other person fucked up. All right, that could happen. I think that example that I gave, the story that I told about that wedding invitation is really clear.

[53:40] Laura Camien: That's right.

[53:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And in that example, both people were able to come to the table. You were able to apologize, that person was able to receive it, forgive, and move on.

[53:52] Laura Camien: But there are times that like you're talking about in the more complicated where it's like, yes, I behaved this way, and I would like to apologize. And it would be nice if you could self-reflect and then come back at me and say, you know, maybe the reason you did that is because I did this, and I'm I also have some responsibility in this, and we could both apologize.

[54:20] Susan Blackwell: That requires two people self-reflecting and understanding the consequence of my behavior here may have caused your behavior there, your behavior there may have caused my behavior here, and on we go. And now we're trying to unravel it, and we both were a part of it, and we both need to do some forgiving, but we both need to do some apologizing.

[54:46] Laura Camien: And I think that happens frequently, and we find out are both parties willing to do that work or not.

[54:54] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes they are, and sometimes they're not. And sometimes, again, I suspect it's born out of pain.

[55:01] Laura Camien: That's right.

[55:07] Susan Blackwell: That until that pain is addressed and processed, that may be where it lands.

[55:14] Laura Camien: You're absolutely right. And that's what I was speaking of before. Like it's psychologically unsafe. It doesn't feel safe to them because for whatever we don't know, we're not. Have we mentioned we are not psychologists?

[55:27] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[55:28] Laura Camien: But there can be a fragile belief system that if one domino fell in in their mind, it may trigger a whole bunch of things that they need to re-evaluate.

[55:40] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[55:41] Laura Camien: And it is too painful.

[55:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:43] Laura Camien: So must keep that domino standing at all costs.

[55:47] Susan Blackwell: That's all true too.

[55:49] Laura Camien: That's all true too. And having that kind of compassion and forgiveness when you don't get an apology, I think is equally as important as learning how to apologize.

[56:00] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[56:01] Laura Camien: Fun times.

[56:02] Susan Blackwell: I can't believe we just talked for an hour about apologies.

[56:06] Laura Camien: I can.

[56:06] Susan Blackwell: I could talk for another several hours about apologies.

[56:10] Laura Camien: I really could.

[56:10] Susan Blackwell: I really could. I'm very fascinated by this.

[56:13] Laura Camien: I'm fascinated by movies. I've seen a movie as recently as this week where this there were some really tidy apologies for big stuff.

[56:24] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, uh, would it were that simple that it could happen so succinctly in a in that brief scene.

[56:32] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:33] Susan Blackwell: And then this gorgeous denouement where there's a sense of freedom and release. And then I also think it's interesting to see it in creative work where it isn't like that. It is messy.

[56:43] Laura Camien: That's right.

[56:45] Susan Blackwell: Time passes, people go their own ways. I think that's interesting too.

[56:50] Laura Camien: I do too.

[56:51] Susan Blackwell: It's all part of the complexity of being human.

[56:56] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[56:57] Susan Blackwell: I'll take it.

[56:58] Laura Camien: I like that.

[57:00] Susan Blackwell: I like that too.

[57:02] Laura Camien: More conversation off mic.

[57:04] Susan Blackwell: Amen.

[57:05] Laura Camien: Sorry, listeners. This is where you step off, and I guess that's it.

[57:10] Susan Blackwell: This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope that it put another bunch of sparks in your file. If there is a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[57:33] Laura Camien: We'll even take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[57:39] Susan Blackwell: Follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast.

[57:46] Laura Camien: It really does help other listeners to find us. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope that you will share it with people that you love.

[57:53] Susan Blackwell: And if you didn't like it, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[57:58] Laura Camien: I like what you did there if something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door come on now it's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame you know you gotta take it and make it bye bye.

[57:58] Susan Blackwell: Sorry you know what you know what we're obsessed with that it was a pre-recorded message on phone machines when a line had been disconnected in New York that went boo doo doo we saw we this call can do you know we're yes that guy's voice we're sorry and like some old phone technician had recorded it I don't for years yes this line has been disconnected.

[57:58] Laura Camien: We'll leave you with that when I bope into something that inspires me a dump it in the sparkfire could be something that I wanna pick or how I wanna be I'll pump it in the sparkfirefire I jump into my sparkfire let's open up the spark fire.