This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: The Sparks File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Laura Camien: Please use your discretion.

[0:09] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark files.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I want to be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark file.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people like you don't go it alone.

[0:45] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:46] Laura Camien: And I'm Laura Camien. If you're an OG listener, welcome back, though, Sparkly. If you're joining us for the first time, you have to know that everyone is welcome here.

[0:55] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm. Whether you've put your creativity on pause during this time, or maybe you've clung to it like a lifeline. Either way, welcome.

[1:03] Laura Camien: But you may be sitting there or standing there or walking there or driving there and asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What is this crazy podcast? What do I file in a spark file? These are such good questions.

[1:17] Susan Blackwell: We actually do have answers for you. A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:24] Laura Camien: Here's the deal. Because we're here for you and we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity, things that inspire all of us to rise up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: Or a newfound self-awareness and dare I say confidence.

[2:07] Laura Camien: I love how you said you had confidence question mark. Hey, every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us as well. And if you're not careful, you might just enjoy doing the work.

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark.

[2:34] Laura Camien: Love you. How are you doing over there?

[2:39] Susan Blackwell: I'm doing good. I wanted to um point something out to you if you haven't seen it yet. David Sedaris wrote an essay for the New Yorker last week that was so good.

[2:52] Laura Camien: It was about his dad's passing. And it was really, I mean, you know, it was David Sedaris level stuff. So I just wanted to point your attention to that, as I know you are a big fan, as am I, and all of our listeners who love some David Sedaris.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: The New Yorker's got a piece for you. If you've lost a parent as well, it's really a beautiful, beautiful and charming essay.

[3:23] Laura Camien: Oh. Just thought you might like that.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. And I just popped onto the New Yorker website because I wanted this is my to-do list is the 100 tabs opened on my browser.

[3:36] Laura Camien: Oh.

[3:37] Susan Blackwell: And so I wanted to make sure that I best wishes when you restart.

[3:43] Laura Camien: I love that keeping a list like that, because either you will tackle it or it will take you down.

[3:49] Susan Blackwell: It'll take down the whole computer and be like, oh, we're not. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with it will take me down. I recently had, as you know, Laura, I recently had a malfunction of an external drive to my computer. And I am forensically like every time I go to open something, it was like decades of files.

[4:12] Laura Camien: And now some of them are gone.

[4:16] Susan Blackwell: They're gone, gone.

[4:17] Laura Camien: No.

[4:18] Susan Blackwell: And some of them I'm trying to cobble back together with recovery software and things like that. But um, yeah, you're right. That is miserable. I'm trying not to be too scared or neurotic about it and just trust that mostly it's just a pain in the ass.

[4:36] Laura Camien: Because first I where things were very well organized and I could access them immediately. Now, first the search happens and I look in all the different places to see if the file still exists. And then if it doesn't, then I go and I recreate what I or you know, I just start from scratch. It's just kind of a pain because you know, just when you think you've done that work, then a different file will come up that you're like, you forgot that it might not exist.

[5:05] Susan Blackwell: You're like, I've got that. Like, oh no, I don't have that. I don't have that.

[5:09] Laura Camien: But all of that is to say, it is my intention to read and enjoy this essay by David Sedaris in the New Yorker. Thank you for that tip. I love a hot tip.

[5:17] Susan Blackwell: I love a hot spark.

[5:20] Laura Camien: You bet. I oh, you know what? Just to trade you, one hot spark for another.

[5:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:25] Laura Camien: One of my favorite podcasts, which I which I've actually used as a source uh on this podcast is the podcast Criminal, hosted by Phoebe Judge. And they did an episode recently titled Masquerade, which is the story that we covered in Armchair Treasure Hunting.

[5:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh amazing.

[5:50] Laura Camien: About Kit Williams or Kat, no, Kat Williams is the comedian. Kit Williams is the artist who created the book that pointed towards a buried treasure, which was a very ornate golden hair.

[6:05] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[6:05] Laura Camien: And it's on the criminal podcast because they do a beautiful job telling the story of how it was essentially stolen.

[6:15] Susan Blackwell: Well, they kind of cheated, right?

[6:17] Laura Camien: They cheated.

[6:17] Susan Blackwell: They cheated.

[6:18] Laura Camien: They cheated.

[6:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I mean, let's call it what it is.

[6:21] Laura Camien: Yeah. So cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater. It's great. If you liked armchair treasures, hunters or whatever that episode of our podcast was called, take a dip into the criminal podcast. The episode is masquerade and stick around because that's a great podcast.

[6:37] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna get on that episode.

[6:38] Laura Camien: Thanks, Suze.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: You're welcome. Sparks for Sparks. We are continuing our ongoing experiment, which I have to say I'm enjoying very much. Where I give you a spark, you give me a spark.

[6:51] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[6:51] Susan Blackwell: But I love this experiment and it permits us to go a bit deeper on the topic at hand.

[6:56] Laura Camien: Yes.

[6:56] Susan Blackwell: Which I like chat a little bit more during the deep dive. Is this interesting to you, listener? Do you give a shit? Do you just resent us for changing the format? Or like, please just suck a butt. We're doing the best we can over here.

[7:11] Laura Camien: We're hanging on, people.

[7:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I really do feel like everyone's in a whether we chose to be or not, we're in this transitionary mode. Or are we, thanks to Delta? It's a little bit of like, we're moving forward, we're hanging back. You know how we've adopted, not just this isn't unique to us, but this idea of pandemic rules throughout the pandemic.

[7:37] Laura Camien: So for instance, if the quality of the sound of the podcast, that's something when we first started recording remotely, that I was just like, uh, and pretty quickly I was like, pandemic rules. I want to carry pandemic rules, which is a, I think, code for saying imperfection is okay.

[7:55] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm. I just want to keep pandemic rules going long past this pandemic.

[8:00] Laura Camien: You are so gonna like my spark today, I think.

[8:03] Susan Blackwell: Oh I think, yeah.

[8:05] Laura Camien: I think you're gonna like uh you're gonna like it. You want to lay it on me?

[8:08] Susan Blackwell: I do, I do.

[8:10] Laura Camien: All right. I'll jump in. So you obviously know this, Suze. But for anybody listening, I will share that Suze and I are always talking about our clients. And if we're not talking about our clients, we're thinking about our clients. We're talking to our clients, we're talking to our clients. And clients, clients, clients.

[8:30] Susan Blackwell: What Laura is referring to is our creativity coaching clients. We have creativity coaching clients, we have a creativity group that we coach, and we have uh private clients. So it's not we're not like financial advisors with clients, we're not massage therapists or dentists with clients. We're creativity coaches.

[8:48] Laura Camien: True. Just in case you're new to the pod. Welcome.

[8:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I like that. And we have so we have many of them, and uh, you know, not to be weird, but we are obsessed with our clients. Like we are always thinking about where they are in their creative journey, what kind of blocks they may be experiencing, what kind of challenges they're having, or questions for us, what kind of support we can give them. Basically, just in what way can we help them as they take their next step? And that excites us, that gets us pretty jazzed up. So you should know that.

[9:20] Laura Camien: Um, there have been many times recently where we've been reminded of that quote or that belief that teachers teach what they need to learn.

[9:28] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[9:29] Laura Camien: And you know, I looked into that, I was like, what is the source of that? I believe it is a Buddhist concept, but there's several variations on the exact quote now that you know have been attributed to different people. But wherever the idea originated, I think it's really true.

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: So many of the things that we work on with clients are things that we've experienced and or overcome in our lifetime, or things that are like continual things we're working on, you know, and have been for years.

[10:04] Laura Camien: Sometimes we're so sparked by an idea that we want to build curriculum for it because frankly, we want to truly dissect and understand the concept for ourselves.

[10:14] Susan Blackwell: Not just to learn it.

[10:15] Laura Camien: It's so true, but like really absorb it.

[10:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[10:19] Laura Camien: In our bones, we want to know and have this information.

[10:23] Susan Blackwell: So I think that teaching that's one of the reasons why we both love it, because it really gives us the opportunity to do exactly that.

[10:31] Laura Camien: Amen.

[10:32] Susan Blackwell: So I've been thinking recently about how many of our clients will describe like what they've gotten done or what they've accomplished, followed by a feeling that it isn't enough, it isn't good enough, or they don't know what they're doing.

[10:46] Laura Camien: And we've started playing around with this is unofficial, but we've started playing around with a new term to describe it, similar to like body dysmorphia, where a person, what a person sees when they look at their body is disconnected from reality. They obsess over a perceived flaw or flaws that other people don't see.

[11:07] Susan Blackwell: We were sort of curious like, is there an equivalent for when people obsess over perceived inadequacies in their productivity or in their abilities? Like productivity dysmorphia, ability dysmorphia. I don't know. Just curious. We're just toying around with that.

[11:22] Laura Camien: But it would be dysphoria, maybe productivity dysdysphoria. I don't know.

[11:27] Susan Blackwell: I don't know if that's true because I looked up dysphoria and it didn't quite fit.

[11:34] Laura Camien: It's not a perfect fit, and it's okay because I think I've actually found the answer.

[11:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh that's right.

[11:40] Laura Camien: So we're playing with like, wait a second, there's gotta be something, something that really captures how people don't see their own abilities accurately. So meanwhile, separate from that, I was working on a spark about a topic that we know for sure has affected our clients and ourselves and probably everyone we know at some point. And that topic is imposter syndrome.

[12:07] Susan Blackwell: And I realized clever names aside, this is really what we're talking about. Imposter syndrome is loosely defined as having a persistent belief in the lack of one's intelligence, competence, or skills.

[12:21] Laura Camien: And often these beliefs are held despite so much evidence to the contrary.

[12:27] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. So no matter how much evidence piles up, accolades, awards, promotions, opportunities, that feeling persists that they are not doing enough, they're not good enough. And somehow someone's gonna find out that they are a fraud.

[12:44] Laura Camien: So imposter syndrome. I just hear the term without really knowing the definition.

[12:49] Susan Blackwell: Because it's a term that gets bandied about so much.

[12:51] Laura Camien: Yep.

[12:52] Susan Blackwell: And I've thought, oh, I don't have that. What I have is the way I've described it in the past is no matter how hard I work, no matter how much I learn, no matter how much I accomplish, I'm just getting to C level.

[13:13] Susan Blackwell: But I think that's a different way of saying exactly what you just said.

[13:16] Laura Camien: I think you're right.

[13:17] Susan Blackwell: Will you say it one more time?

[13:19] Laura Camien: Yes, and I'll explain it in a variety of ways. So, you know, one or more might spark in you. But this is what it's loosely defined as having a persistent belief in the lack of one's intelligence, competence, or skills.

[13:37] Laura Camien: And I've added, as I'll explain further, oftentimes these beliefs are held despite so much evidence to the contrary. So it doesn't really matter how much you learn, how much you grow, how many degrees you get, how many awards you get, you're still like you just said, I'm barely at passable, which is not based in reality.

[14:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:00] Laura Camien: I or to zero. I always think of it like it's I get to zero no matter how clean the house is, no matter how that's right. It's just like I'm just getting to zero.

[14:11] Susan Blackwell: So you're gonna like the rest of this for sure. In an interview on medium.com, Dr. Jessamine Hibbard says the mind trap of imposter syndrome means that even when you do well, it doesn't stop you from feeling like an imposter. This is because imposters have different rules for when they do well and when they do badly, attributing success to external circumstances, such as I got lucky or it's my good fortune, can't explain it. But if they do badly, it's because of a personal failing.

[14:44] Laura Camien: This means so impostors don't internalize their success. So they're unable to update their view of themselves and see that their fears are not true. They're not accurate. I mean, my God, how many people relate to that? If I fail, it's totally my fault because I'm a failure. If I succeed, it's because of some other crazy circumstance. You know, it's not because of me.

[15:12] Susan Blackwell: And I as you talk about this, I'm also flashing back to remember, reach back, back, back deep into the archives. I did an episode about the work of Annette LaRue and concerted cultivation versus natural growth as a way of raising children. And one of the things about concerted cultivation kids is that they think that their success is some. This is uh this is a no, I'm sure not every concerted cultivation kid thinks this, but many think that their success, like I got into this my first choice college. They could totally don't see all the helping hands that got them there. They're just like it's almost like the flip of this. Do you know what I mean? They just see how their exceptionalism and their efforts got them there. And there's no parents, no guidance counselors, no teachers, no um dad was a legacy like that is that just falls away in the mind.

[16:17] Laura Camien: That would be the opposite.

[16:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That would be the opposite. Because this person, and if you're in the throes of imposter syndrome, you might be like, yeah, I got into Yale, but you know, I think it's my dad's friend made a phone call. It certainly isn't because of my skills and talents. You're gonna attribute it to something else. If you didn't get into Yale, you're gonna be like, that's because I'm not that's because I'm not good enough and I don't deserve to be there. So it's interesting. And we have had a lot of clients say that they have struggled with this. So I thought, hey, why not dig into this? Love it.

[16:54] Laura Camien: The thing is, like imposter syndrome can be experienced in degrees. So it's not, it's not all or nothing. It can be anything from like a nagging self-doubt or or worry that if I fail at something, um, you know, just worrying about failing all the way to like this idea of being found out, I'm gonna be fired, everything is gonna be taken away from me as soon as the truth about me is revealed. So it can go from mild to extreme. But if you've ever felt any of these feelings, you might take solace in knowing that more than 70% of people have felt this way, according to a study in the International Journal of Behavioral Science. And people who challenge themselves, like CEOs and entrepreneurs, and I'll add creatives, could be at higher risk since they're continually in a state of ongoing growth and discomfort.

[17:55] Susan Blackwell: Can I ask you a question?

[17:57] Laura Camien: You can.

[17:58] Susan Blackwell: And if I'm jumping your spark to just push push paws on me. But can you have imposter syndrome in certain areas of your life?

[18:08] Laura Camien: Specific areas, like for instance, I might have imposter syndrome around my acting skills, for instance, but I have a lot of confidence around my teaching skills, for instance.

[18:20] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. It's not, yeah, it's not all or nothing. So here are a few familiar people who have shared their battles with imposter syndrome. Sit back, because there's there's a quite a few. That feeling that you shouldn't take me seriously. What do I know? I share that with you because we all have doubts in our abilities about our power and what that power is. Meryl Streep said in an article in USA Weekend, you think, why would anyone want to see me in a again in a movie? I don't know how to act anyway. Why am I doing this? In a 2013 rookie magazine interview, Emma Watson said, It's almost like the better I do, the more my feeling of inadequacy actually increases. Because I'm just going, any moment, someone's gonna find out I'm a total fraud and that I don't deserve any of what I've achieved.

[19:26] Laura Camien: Tom Hanks in an interview with NPR said, no matter what we've done, there comes a point where you think, How did I get here? When are they going to discover that I am in fact a fraud and take everything away from me? Albert Einstein reportedly said, the exaggerated esteem in which my life work is held makes me very ill at ease. I feel compelled to think of myself as an involuntary swindler. And Maya Angelou, Maya Angelou has said, Well, fucking Albert Einstein seriously. Michelle Obama. Come on. I mean, come on, come on. Maya Angelou has said, I have written 11 books, but each time I think, uh oh, they're gonna find out now. I've run a game on everybody and they're gonna find me out. Fuck. Fuck.

Why is it when we have done well, right? Dare I say, when we have lived up to our greater purpose, when we have shined our light and people have noticed, we think it's a fluke and that we're somehow fooling people. Honestly, like we have so many clients we've talked to who've struggled with this dynamic. So I dove into a book that that very same Dr. Jessamine Hibbard wrote called The Imposter Cure: How to Stop Feeling Like a Fraud and Escape the Mind Trap of Imposter Syndrome.

[20:51] Laura Camien: Dr. Hibbard, by the way, is a clinical psychologist, author, and commentator with over 15 years' experience working in mental health. She focuses on supporting adults who are experiencing depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, which eventually led her to tackling this book on imposter syndrome. Dr. Hibbert explains that imposter syndrome is all about fear, not surprisingly. It is triggered when what others expect from us exceeds what we believe we're capable of.

[21:23] Susan Blackwell: So my God.

[21:25] Laura Camien: Oh my God. So think about getting a job or a promotion that others believe you are perfect for, but you have doubts about whether or not you can do it. Or in our cases, maybe being invited to create a show or a performance of some kind, and you want to do it, but you also question whether or not you can pull it off, right? And you're just like, oh my God, why did they choose me? Well, I don't know why they asked me to do this, because although I very much want to do it, I question whether I can.

[21:58] Susan Blackwell: So interesting that you mentioned the growth mindset earlier. When we're able to maintain a growth mindset, we might be scared, but we lean into it. We might even have a mantra like the ones we've talked about on this podcast before. You might say, This is a challenge, but I can learn to do it. Or I'm scared to try this, but I can do it. And even if I fail, I'll be okay. But someone who is in the throes of imposter syndrome might slip into a dangerous cycle that Hibbert calls the mind trap of imposter syndrome. When you're in the mind trap, which by the way, you can slip into for years or decades, or just for a particular project. Uh for a moment, maybe for a moment. Here's what happens. First, we feel like a fraud.

We worry that we might try to step up to a particular challenge. And if we fail, we could reveal to the whole world that we're not as smart, we're not as talented, we're not as capable as they think we are. They're gonna regret their choice, thinking they never should have given us the opportunity, the role, the job, the promotion, et cetera. People might see that we're a one-hit wonder, that whatever they thought they saw in us just simply wasn't there. On and on.

[23:16] Laura Camien: So, in response to these feelings, we use if you're in the throes of this imposter syndrome, we use two coping mechanisms to deal with the fear and the discomfort. One is we overwork. We work longer hours than anyone else. We establish our work ethic as undeniable. We overprepare, we obsess over details, we set impossibly high standards, and we try to stay in control at all times.

[23:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[23:55] Laura Camien: That's one coping mechanism. The other coping mechanism is we avoid avoidance, aka procrastination. We avoid doing the work. We don't ask for help. We stay under the radar, we don't prepare a ton, we try to keep it light and easy. I'm so fascinated with these because I'm like, I just I couldn't help, I'm like, oh my God, there are those times when you're like, oh, if I do this, that way if I fail, right? Oh my god, I didn't really try, right? As you're describing this, I was like, oh, I have observed myself just that basically bouncing between these two states, these two coping mechanisms. Typically, where I live now is in what I think is in a character one part of the brain that is just like prepared and thorough and you know, all of that.

But I have, I've observed there was a time when I used to underprepare for auditions. And my thought, I think I've talked about it. I talked about it on the preparation episode of this podcast. And I would, I thought, if I kept it easy and breezy, then the final product, like for an on-camera audition, for example, would appear very just very human, very authentic and natural and easy and breezy, which is not the case for me. That's not the best tact for me. But I think if you peel the onion layers back, really, I was like, I'm gonna keep my say myself safe by not preparing too much.

[25:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[25:29] Susan Blackwell: So that when I don't get it, I'll be like, That's okay. I didn't really put that much into it. Well, what's really interesting for so when we're in this mind trap and we do one or the other of these things, overwork or avoid, then the day of the task arrives, and somehow we succeed, right? We blow it out of the water, we do an amazing job, you get the role despite not having prepared, or you get the role having over-prepared. Instead of believing that we succeeded because we are competent and capable, instead, we attribute our success to either the overwork or to the avoidance.

[26:17] Susan Blackwell: And we believe that the overwork or the avoidance is the secret to our success. We feel affirmed that we are, in fact, an imposter, just getting by by overworking, for example, and the cycle starts all over again. So that's what the cycle is. I don't, I, you know, I'm afraid I'm not good enough. Get an opportunity, I overwork, I succeed. Then I tell myself, I only succeeded because I overwork. So I have to pause here for just a second to confess like I believed for so many years that what I had to offer is that I was scrappy and I worked hard. And my work ethic was part of my identity. I worked all hours, I worked over vacations. Damn it, I could be relied upon. Like there was just no question. Full stop. And trust me, I know that this must have been annoying as hell for other people that I worked with. But when I reflect on that, I realize I was telling myself a story that went like this.

[27:38] Laura Camien: I feel like this is we've heard this though, in again, back to that preparation spark. People like Will Smith saying, Yes, I will outwork anybody. And that's the secret of my success. And so that is, I mean, I can't speak for Will, but I can speak for myself. That is absolutely the mind trap of the imposter syndrome because I did not believe that it was my intelligence, my talents, my skills that were contributing to my success. It was my overwork that was contributing. So as you can imagine, that is one of the reasons why it's difficult to get someone who overworks to stop overworking. Because you're like, but that's my that's how I've gained everything that I've gained. That is why I'm succeeding. Did you tell me one time that you had an acting teacher who said to you, Laura, can you consider the possibility that this might just come easy to you?

[28:39] Laura Camien: That is correct. That is correct. Because I was like, um, we were in rehearsals for a show, and I wasn't getting any notes. Like, you know, a few things here or there cross a little bit. Oh, yeah, that's right. Downstage write a little bit sooner, whatever. But I was like, but where are like the meaty notes about my where am I lacking? And so I sought out the director and asked for a meeting and was like, Can you, but really, but be honest with me. Like, really give it to me. And she was like, I am giving you all the notes that I have for you. And I'm like, yes, but but like deeper level, I can handle it. Tell me. The real notes, the notes that are in the vault, where you don't want to hurt my feelings. I can take it. I can take it. And yeah, she was like, can you consider the possibility that this that acting is easy for you? And let it, can you let it be joyful? Like it doesn't have to be excruciating work.

[29:35] Susan Blackwell: As you're describing these two sort of gears of coping mechanisms, again, not jumping your spark, but my hope is that by the time we conclude the recording of this podcast, I will have an idea about some sort of middle path, some sort of well, yes, you know.

[29:55] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes, you will. You will have an idea. I don't know if it's a middle path, but it is a healthier, it's a healthier path, perhaps a path around imposter syndrome overall. Beautiful, right? Give it give it to me, baby. So yeah. So for me, I was I spent, I mean, at least a decade, maybe more in that spiral of overworking and then attributing my success to overworking. After years of therapy, I began to see myself differently and allow myself some recognition for the skills and the experience and the talent that I brought to the table. This was really difficult because I had been raised in Kansas, where humility, I mean, there's always like a humble pie cooling in the windowsill in Kansas. Like, do not lose sight of the fucking humble pie. We don't get too big for our britches. What's that smell? Mama made a humble pie. Don't you forget it.

[30:58] Susan Blackwell: That is fucking funny. But we years later, like I worked in an environment that helped me realize how far I had come. You know, you spot it, you got it, kind of thing, where I was like, oh my gosh. So I found myself working within a team of people with an already established dynamic. And it was clear that there were one or two people who had already claimed the I work harder than anyone else title. And there was aka the suffering trophy.

[31:27] Laura Camien: Suffering trophy.

[31:27] Susan Blackwell: And there was no room for another person in that club. And I was surprised because I'm like, I'm always a member of that club. Like nobody, nobody would shut the door on me. Like I that's what he's doing. I have the sash. I own the sash. Um, but over time I realized it was such a gift because I was able to pull back to like that 10,000 foot view and like take a look at it from that perspective. And I realized I no longer belonged in that club because I had changed. An executive coach that I love is named Joanne Heyman once said that it is important to learn the difference between being invaluable and being valued. And like that was one of those like mind-blowing concepts to me. I was like, can you unpack that for me?

[32:18] Laura Camien: I sure can. Chasing after the idea of being invaluable is based on an insecurity. It's based on imposter syndrome, basically, thinking that if you work hard enough, you might gain that job security. Like we, you know, like this place can't exist without Laura. Um, you get that like, but she puts in 70 hours a week, she's invaluable, right? But the new experience had shown me that I had moved on to the goal of being valued, of coming from a place of confidence and knowing that I am valued for the skills and the talents that I contribute, which are substantial and unique and don't have anything to do with like the number of hours that I put in. We all know those people, like it's oftentimes it's consultants, frankly.

They come in, they drop some knowledge bombs, and you're like, damn, they were only here for 30 minutes, but what I gained from that, I really value what they contributed in that amount of time. And nobody is like, oh my God, we could not do this without our consultants. They they work so hard. It's not about that spinning wheel. It's not about the grind. It is about bringing to the table what you have to contribute and having the confidence that you know the right opportunities will come to me because of those skills and talents, and the rest can fall away.

[33:45] Susan Blackwell: Are you getting the invaluable versus valued?

[33:48] Laura Camien: I think so. I think so. My mind goes to that like irreplaceable, I'm irreplaceable. And instead of thinking I'm invaluable, uh, a word that I would think is I'm irreplaceable. Yes. That if you interchange those things, I'm irreplaceable. Why? Because I work so fucking hard. I do the job of three people. This place couldn't exist without me. Like I hear and have experienced like a number of work environments where that gives people a sense of job security because they are invaluable. Versus, and I've worked in these work environments too, as you know, then like uh creative directors or someone who, you know, it they aren't valued for putting in 70 hours a week. They're valued for what they come in and bring to the table.

It's their skills and their talents that are valued. And their thoughts, yeah, and yeah, and their years of experience and et cetera, et cetera. So I like I was so happy when I realized, oh my gosh, I think I've made that shift in my life. Not, not which is not to say that I'm not ever gonna have, you know, bouts of imposter syndrome, but in terms of that grind, that belief that it is only overwork that gives me value. I think those days are behind me. I really do. I'm excited and I hope that you'll keep me in check. But which is not to say I won't overwork, but that isn't going to be my identity. That isn't going to be my um default setting.

[35:32] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[35:33] Susan Blackwell: But when you're stuck in imposter syndrome and the cycle of imposter syndrome, if overworking is your coping mechanism, like more work and more opportunities, even if it's more than any one person can handle, it is all designed to feed that insecurity to help you believe, even if only fleetingly that you are capable. And by the way, if you're in a cycle of imposter syndrome and avoidance is your coping mechanism, this can be the story that you tell yourself. If I don't rehearse, if I don't really try, and if I fail, no big deal, right? Just like you said, because I didn't put my, you know, I didn't put my whole self into it. Many people who drop into this cycle of overwork and avoidance begin to believe that their success actually depends upon those behaviors.

So they have a really tight grip on them. After all, we got to this level of success based on these behaviors, right? So we cannot imagine living a different way. Thus, people can remain in that state for years or for decades, for lifetimes, unless we choose to stop.

[36:46] Laura Camien: If you're someone who would like to tackle those feelings of imposter syndrome, Dr. Hibbert advises that you first take stock of how your imposter syndrome has negatively affected you. For example, are you sacrificing your health and your happiness for your work? Are you tied up in anxiety, believing that you're not good enough, no matter what accolades you get? How might it feel to move through the world with confidence, trusting your ability to succeed, and knowing, frankly, that even if you don't succeed, you'll be okay. So first she asks that we sort of explore those questions and determine like what negative impact has imposter syndrome had on our life. Then she suggests that you recognize that your thoughts and your feelings about your lack of ability are likely not based in reality.

In fact, they're likely unreasonable and untrue. And if you've listened to the past few episodes in the past few weeks, where Susan shares the spark of Dr. Jill Boldy Taylor and whole brain living, you might recognize that the negative messages are coming from inside the house, from character two specifically. You might look around and see that the only voice criticizing you is within you.

[38:10] Susan Blackwell: Ask yourself, is there any actual evidence for these negative thoughts and beliefs? If you could look at it from like a researcher's point of view, from an outsider's point of view, would you rely on this single source of data, even though all other data says something else? Because this is what we find with like imposter syndrome often happens, most often to people who are really successful. So by all other evidence, they're doing great. They are doing great. But inside their mind, they're like, I'm not though. I'm not.

[38:49] Laura Camien: But here's the thing as you're talking about this and laying it out, I'm thinking about what a driver it is. I mean, like a crack in a whip driver to get people to continue to, you know, try to work at the highest levels. I'm talking about the people whose coping mechanism goes to overwork. And so there is measurable success.

[39:20] Susan Blackwell: No, I totally can come from this. But here's the problem.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: We like, I have to live this one wild and precious life.

[39:29] Laura Camien: That's right.

[39:30] Susan Blackwell: You have to live this one wild and precious life.

[39:32] Laura Camien: We get to live this one wild and precious life.

[39:35] Susan Blackwell: And if you're my experience has been if I am just grinding, grinding, grinding, trying to get to zero, trying to get to C level.

[39:45] Laura Camien: And it, or another way of saying that, is just to get to a neutral feeling about myself.

[39:51] Susan Blackwell: It's exhausting.

[39:53] Laura Camien: Yes.

[39:53] Susan Blackwell: And it feels there are brief fleeting moments of happiness, but the majority of the time, it's not, it doesn't feel great from the inside in my experience.

[40:05] Laura Camien: It doesn't, but that very concept that you touched on that you're like, yes, but there is evidence that it does like it makes me work harder, or um, it has positively affected my success.

[40:18] Susan Blackwell: That is the story.

[40:20] Laura Camien: This is one of the toughest things about imposter syndrome is that when you're in it, you truly believe that being tough on yourself, this critical voice, this really negative self-assessment is literally at the core of your success.

[40:35] Susan Blackwell: You tell yourself you need it.

[40:38] Laura Camien: It's what motivates you.

[40:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm here to say, and Dr. Hibbard is here to say, do not believe it.

[40:47] Laura Camien: You are gaslighting yourself.

[40:50] Susan Blackwell: You truly, you're gaslighting yourself.

[40:50] Laura Camien: It's just not true.

[40:54] Susan Blackwell: You are successful despite the self-criticism, not because of it.

[40:59] Laura Camien: So to put in the words of the work of Jill Bolty Taylor, it is a little piece sized cluster of cells in the character two part of your brain in the left hemisphere feeling part of your brain that are coughing up this incredibly persuasive driving self-criticism.

[41:25] Susan Blackwell: And we are, when I talk about like what is the alternative, like what is the middle path? I know that I have felt differently.

[41:35] Laura Camien: So I know that there is other possibility.

[41:39] Susan Blackwell: But in this moment, I will tell you, Laura, in this moment of learning this from you freshly for the first time, I'm just like, I'm I feel like I feel at sea.

[41:51] Laura Camien: I'm gonna help you, I promise.

[41:53] Susan Blackwell: By the end of this, I'm gonna help you.

[41:55] Laura Camien: Um I believe in.

[41:57] Susan Blackwell: I think it is so interesting what you just described, that character two.

[42:01] Laura Camien: Um, that little cluster of cells that in it, you know, is somehow maybe like through self-importance, self-aggrandizing, believing that it is cracking the whip for character one.

[42:14] Susan Blackwell: And character one is responding to that and working hard.

[42:17] Laura Camien: And thanks to that voice, we're getting so much shit done.

[42:21] Susan Blackwell: And if that voice were quieted, then maybe we wouldn't accomplish as much as we accomplish.

[42:28] Laura Camien: But the self-criticism is not making you work harder.

[42:33] Susan Blackwell: It is not making your quality of work better.

[42:35] Laura Camien: It is simply draining you of energy.

[42:38] Susan Blackwell: It is depriving you of good feelings that frankly you've earned.

[42:44] Laura Camien: That self-criticism actually is putting us at a higher risk of depression and stress.

[42:50] Susan Blackwell: Here's a secret I learned from Dr. Hibbert's book.

[42:52] Laura Camien: Self-compassionate people are more resilient and bounce back more easily from setbacks.

[43:02] Susan Blackwell: They're more likely to learn from their mistakes and take steps to improve themselves and get this.

[43:07] Laura Camien: They're more likely to reach their potential.

[43:11] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I can tell you, there were years that I thought, if I'm kind to myself, I won't get anything done.

[43:18] Laura Camien: I mean, if I'm like compassionate with myself and like let myself do whatever I like want to do for the day, that isn't going to get me anywhere.

[43:28] Susan Blackwell: I thought it was only me pushing myself, being harder on myself, and that that dynamic inside of me was what was making me get things done.

[43:38] Laura Camien: In actuality, according to Dr. Hibbert, letting go of these habits doesn't mean that you won't hold yourself accountable for your actions.

[43:46] Susan Blackwell: It doesn't mean that you won't reach for greatness.

[43:49] Laura Camien: Letting go of these coping mechanisms will actually allow you to accurately assess your abilities and performance.

[43:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes, you will continue to grow and evolve, but you will do it with your eyes open, looking at the reality of your talents.

[44:04] Laura Camien: It will allow you to learn to embrace those emotions that we try to avoid fear, insecurity, imperfection, and yes, failure, and learn to live with them, even gain from them.

[44:15] Susan Blackwell: More than anything, getting out from under this trap will give you the gift of a more empowered, healthy, and balanced life.

[44:23] Laura Camien: In the Medium.com article, Dr. Hibbard says this.

[44:26] Susan Blackwell: I call it the myth of imposter syndrome.

[44:31] Laura Camien: Often people try to convince me that imposter syndrome has its good points, and they say it's not all bad with reasons such as it makes me work hard, it keeps me humble, it means I aim for high standards, it motivates me.

[44:48] Susan Blackwell: It is better to be modest than arrogant.

[44:50] Laura Camien: It keeps me in check.

[44:53] Susan Blackwell: To be clear, Dr. Hibbert says there are no zero, absolutely no advantages to holding on to imposter syndrome.

[45:06] Laura Camien: Rather than helping you, imposter syndrome is what holds you back.

[45:09] Susan Blackwell: And research supports this.

[45:11] Laura Camien: It makes you feel more anxious.

[45:13] Susan Blackwell: It stops you taking on board any of the good things that you do.

[45:17] Laura Camien: It puts limits on your potential and makes it difficult to enjoy the things you care about.

[45:22] Susan Blackwell: Wouldn't it be better to be ambitious, to take on challenges, having humility and courage without the anxiety that imposter feelings can bring and the cost to your health and your happiness, to be able to enjoy your successes and go for the things that you want without the imposter fears holding you back.

[45:41] Laura Camien: Of course, nobody wants to be arrogant or lack insight about themselves, but overcoming imposter syndrome will not cause this.

[45:50] Susan Blackwell: Imposter syndrome is not what pushes you or makes you good at what you do.

[45:54] Laura Camien: You are the one who does this.

[45:57] Susan Blackwell: You are hardworking and conscientious.

[45:59] Laura Camien: That is the person that you are, right?

[46:02] Susan Blackwell: It's the person that you are.

[46:04] Laura Camien: It is not this other overworking character.

[46:10] Susan Blackwell: I see your hand in the air.

[46:11] Laura Camien: Suze, you have a question?

[46:13] Susan Blackwell: I'm well, I'm just again overlaying the work of Jill Boldy Taylor on this.

[46:18] Laura Camien: And I'm thinking about how you and I have been really talking a lot about how this plays out in real life and how it makes life, I have to say, just anecdotally, since we've had those conversations about the work of Jill Bolty Taylor, and I feel like this is just gonna like contribute to it.

[46:46] Susan Blackwell: A hundred percent.

[46:47] Laura Camien: Because I am able to parse when different parts of my brain are activated, and then ask myself consciously, what's the most useful parts of my brain to be activated right now and make choices about who's going to be at the driver's base.

[47:07] Susan Blackwell: And to give you a very specific example, because of some work that I'm doing right now, I have been commuting a lot.

[47:14] Laura Camien: I have been driving a lot.

[47:17] Susan Blackwell: And after living in New York City for 20 years without a car, I now find myself driving a lot.

[47:24] Laura Camien: And in those 20 years, when I wasn't driving regularly and taking mass transit, cell phones really became, you know, the proliferation of cell phones.

[47:34] Susan Blackwell: Everybody has a cell phone, which means the there's an increase of distracted driving.

[47:39] Laura Camien: Since the last time I drove regularly, it's like half the people on the road are drunk now, morning, noon, and night.

[47:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:46] Laura Camien: When I say drunk, what I mean is drunk with their cell phones.

[47:49] Susan Blackwell: Like they're distracted by their cell phones.

[47:51] Laura Camien: I drive with great caution and sometimes anxiety.

[47:58] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, is there a way for this is just an example, like a little metaphor for this work?

[48:04] Laura Camien: But I I've been challenging myself to and saying to myself, consciously, brain, is there a way that I can be very present and vigilant as I drive without being anxious and fearful?

[48:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[48:17] Laura Camien: Because if I'm spending that many hours behind the wheel, literally, of a car, I don't want my character to anxiety driving my brain metaphorically, and just because I get it's exhausting.

[48:32] Susan Blackwell: It's just exhausting.

[48:34] Laura Camien: So is Dr. Hippert saying consciously easing up on that character two part of the brain that is fearful, that is critical, that is uh a taskmaster that is in favor of that sort of overwork out of a out of fear of what will happen if we don't overwork, and sort of letting another part of the brain drive.

[48:58] Susan Blackwell: Whether that is, okay, this morning, character one, you are going to organize this shit, you are on it.

[49:05] Laura Camien: Then we're gonna bring in some character two, just some creativity, some innovation, some playfulness, all with the understanding that underneath all of it, there's a sense of peace that's always at play.

[49:15] Susan Blackwell: Is that a translation between Dr. Hibbert's work and Dr. Joel Bolty Taylor's work?

[49:21] Laura Camien: I think it can be.

[49:22] Susan Blackwell: I mean, what I loved about when we were talking about Joe Bolty Taylor's work, and we mentioned it on that episode.

[49:29] Laura Camien: I I love that it seems to incorporate or align with so much learning from various areas.

[49:37] Susan Blackwell: Like nothing about her work runs counter to other frameworks.

[49:42] Laura Camien: It's like inclusive of other frameworks.

[49:45] Susan Blackwell: And even I was, I was working on this spark, you know, at the same time and reading this book as you were sharing the Dr. Tayl Bolty Taylor's work.

[49:54] Laura Camien: And I was thinking to myself, yeah, they're not in contradiction to each other.

[50:00] Susan Blackwell: They are explained differently, but definitely uh Dr. Bolti Taylor's work can incorporate this.

[50:06] Laura Camien: And I'll I'll give you some specifics.

[50:08] Susan Blackwell: Um, I'll give you some specifics, but I think that um what is really interesting to me is that whether we knew Dr. Hibbert and Dr. Bolti Taylor at the time, which we did not, um, but we began approaching the creation of our business with this very goal in mind.

[50:30] Laura Camien: Yes, we want to keep learning, we want to keep growing, we want to keep excelling.

[50:34] Susan Blackwell: We'd like to still have you know success and abundance in uh, you know, in all the ways that we've had in the past.

[50:42] Laura Camien: But we also want to be meant to be with a different flavor.

[50:45] Susan Blackwell: We want to be healthy mentally, physically.

[50:48] Laura Camien: We don't want our business to be run on insecurity and coping mechanisms.

[50:53] Susan Blackwell: You and I don't want to have the dynamic of like, well, who worked harder this week and how many hours did we put in?

[51:00] Laura Camien: Like that.

[51:01] Susan Blackwell: We're not interested in that.

[51:03] Laura Camien: I feel like we talk so much about how easy.

[51:08] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I have the word easy written all over my uh post-it notes all over my computer.

[51:14] Laura Camien: Different versions of how easy could you make this my success is easy, flowing, fun, absolutely and lucrative.

[51:22] Susan Blackwell: Like uh ease, ease, ease, ease, ease.

[51:25] Laura Camien: I think consciously have chosen to build a business that is something that contributes to our joy, that is our gift to our life and to the lives of others, and that it is not something that we need to cope with.

[51:39] Susan Blackwell: It's no coping mechanisms required.

[51:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:43] Susan Blackwell: And I have to say, as I was reading this book, I was able to reflect on the path that pulled me out of imposter syndrome that pulled me out of overwork.

[51:53] Laura Camien: And uh, you know, while I did it via therapy, maybe not even conscious of that was the work that I was doing.

[52:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but I think this book would have been a great service to me, and I think it would be to to many others.

[52:06] Laura Camien: One thing I want to clarify, Suze, the overworking in and of itself is not um, I think using overwork as a coping mess mechanism is a problem.

[52:16] Susan Blackwell: There's gonna be times where we push ourselves and we work really hard, and that feels that can be invigorating.

[52:24] Laura Camien: That can be um so satisfying.

[52:28] Susan Blackwell: You know, when you're when you're uh putting a show up, and you're like, we're gonna put or or on a film set, and you're like, we're gonna push, push, push until this date, and then we're done, and it's up.

[52:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[52:40] Laura Camien: It's not the over, it's not that that is the problem. The problem with imposter syndrome is that you believe that is the reason why you're successful, not all of the skills, talents, intelligence that you bring to it. It's you're you're sort of isolating, it's only that I worked 80 hours that week. That is the only reason why. And if you take that away, I'm nothing. So that's that's really more the problem. Uh it's a a little bit slippery to me still, it's a little bit elusive, like when you're learning something new. Uh but I can see why she developed that piece of thinking about the myth of imposter syndrome.

[53:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, about the but but it keeps me in check.

[53:25] Laura Camien: That's right. But it it it drives me in a great way that like people talking about what the positive upshots are. I'm sitting over here thinking, again, if that's not the driver, then what is the what is the healthier driver?

[53:40] Susan Blackwell: I'm into it. I'm not, I'm so here for it.

[53:44] Laura Camien: Well, the driver would still be what is it you want to accomplish? And you can still go after it. When you achieve it, you won't reflect back and say, Oh, well, I only got the yeah, I only got it because I, you know, I just worked three times as hard as anyone else. No, you probably got it because you were the right person for the job. You were the right person for that role. You were the right person to build this business at the right time, not because you ran yourself into the ground doing it.

[54:18] Susan Blackwell: There's another thing that's jumping into my mind as you share about this, which is we talk a lot on this podcast in coaching in our group, in our lives, et cetera, about being sort of pulled by purpose. Do you know what I mean? So if I know my purpose is to free myself and anyone who wants to come along for the ride and free myself creatively, self-express and self-expression, et cetera. It's sort of another way of saying it's being pulled by a possibility instead of sort of pushed by this whip, the whiplash of or the lash of the whip of if you're not a uh hardworking pack animal who will just labor and labor and labor, then you don't have value.

[55:09] Laura Camien: That is true. That's really it is related to that. But you can operate from purpose and still have imposter syndrome.

[55:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, but yeah, it's this is like so slippery to me. It's I look forward to getting my arms around it.

[55:27] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like I don't think I think one of the things that um it could be it could be uh just like word choice, but the driver, I don't think people are driven by imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome is like a response to something.

[55:50] Susan Blackwell: So if that helps at all, you know what I mean? We can be driven by purpose, we can be driven by an absolute clarifying mission that we're like, I'm I was put on earth to do this. But then if you have imposter syndrome, when you do it and you are succeeding at it, you question oh, that isn't What were the factors that led to your success.

[56:15] Laura Camien: Tell me if this is right. It's kind of like an are you enjoying this real time coaching that Laura is giving Susan in so much as you understand it, is it sort of like an ongoing critical assessment from within?

[56:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes, that no matter what evidence is presented, the assessment comes back.

[56:35] Laura Camien: If you succeeded, you got there because of your overwork.

[56:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, or because it was a fluke, or it was because good luck, or because what whatever, because some people use avoidance. You said it at the outset. It is some external circumstance leads to your success, and nothing like from within you, except maybe overwork.

[56:58] Laura Camien: Yeah. And if you have experience perceived failure, that the c the sources from within. So essentially, you can never enjoy your successes because you don't believe you contributed to them, except for the except for the overworking.

[57:15] Susan Blackwell: Overwork.

[57:16] Laura Camien: Um you completely internalize all of your perceived failures. Those were right on target. I failed at this, that's about right because I fail, right?

[57:28] Susan Blackwell: So all the It's so shitty.

[57:30] Laura Camien: It's so shitty.

[57:32] Susan Blackwell: It's so shitty.

[57:33] Laura Camien: And the thing that's been so exhausting about it and shitty about it, in my experience, is because there has so much effort has gone into it and thought and creativity and care. And so the experience can largely be exhausting, and then you don't get any of the pleasure.

[57:52] Susan Blackwell: You don't get it, or you get a little bit of the yeah, yeah, or maybe it's fleeting. Either in the process or the results.

[57:58] Laura Camien: Yeah, exactly.

[58:00] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of this?

[58:03] Laura Camien: I'm gonna give you a. What do we make, McCams? Some, so this book, The Imposter Cure by Dr. Hibbert has a ton of exercises in the book and a ton of ideas for how to replace these unhealthy habits with healthier ones. I'm gonna highlight a few of them here. There are so many more in the book. But Suze, I think you're gonna recognize some of these techniques because some of them would fit just perfectly within the whole brain work as well.

[58:34] Susan Blackwell: So you're spot on in asking that question.

[58:37] Laura Camien: So one that I wanted to highlight is this exercise that Dr. Hibbert recommends distancing yourself from that impostor voice in your head and making sure that you recognize that that voice is not you. She says one way to do that is to give that voice a name.

[58:57] Susan Blackwell: So we know, right?

[58:59] Laura Camien: If if we know that this voice is coming from character two or our left brain emotional part of your brain, you can use that name and speak back to it when it attempts to tell you you're not good enough or you need to work harder. A little scared bitey, a little scaredy or sensitive soul. Thank you so much for your contributions, but we're doing just great.

[59:18] Susan Blackwell: This may be a challenge, but we can do it, right?

[59:22] Laura Camien: So another thing Hibbert recommends is something we've done with our coach, Jennifer Rosenfeld, and we've also created a version of this for our classes. This one is to create an evidence file.

[59:35] Susan Blackwell: Literally take out a piece of paper and write down every single achievement you can think of from your whole life. Degrees you've gotten, jobs you've had, awards, promotions, compliments you've received, difficult situations you've overcome, have you survived a heartbreak or left an abusive relationship? Have you gotten yourself out of debt or paid off a student loan? Have you been there for someone else when they were going through something difficult? Hobbies you've learned, classes you've taken, literally everything.

[1:00:07] Laura Camien: Every single achievement. Then step back and take a look at this list. If you were a private investigator, a judge or a journalist, and you were assessing this list. What would this list of evidence say about that person? What does it say about who you are and what you're capable of? What would you think of someone else with this list of achievements? Are you thinking about yourself the way you would think about someone else and applying the same rules and judgments to yourself?

[1:00:42] Susan Blackwell: This exercise is really about internalizing our successes, which frankly many of us are resistant to do. I think it has something to do with remaining humble or just simply not believing big positive statements about ourselves.

[1:00:58] Laura Camien: So Dr. Hibbert also recommends that we keep a daily diary, that we write down everything that's going well, including examples of how your strengths are evident in action, include any compliments, any positive feedback and successes. She recommends reading through it at the end of each week so you can remind yourself of all the good things that happened and really internalize it.

[1:01:24] Susan Blackwell: I just want to add or maybe check with you, Laura, to see where you think this falls. You know, you can only think a single thought at a time.

[1:01:34] Laura Camien: Now, thoughts can come in quick, rapid succession.

[1:01:37] Susan Blackwell: So in a millisecond, you can have what seem like thoughts simultaneously, but we can really only think one thought at a time.

[1:01:45] Laura Camien: And I have been spending the past couple years when I have a little free time and even I'll make a little time because I am the source of all time. Thank you, Kay Hendrix.

[1:01:54] Susan Blackwell: I love how this I feel like this podcast could be retitled Watch Laura and Susan Learn.

[1:02:02] Laura Camien: We're learning.

[1:02:04] Susan Blackwell: But I spend a lot of time cultivating and considering and thinking and feeling gratitude thoughts.

[1:02:12] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:02:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:13] Laura Camien: And it it in what on one hand, it takes up the space where maybe some negative or some imposter syndrome thoughts could live. But I think it also strengthens those neural pathways that speak to what you just said about, I thank my brain for being a good healthy brain.

[1:02:36] Susan Blackwell: I think my body for being a good healthy body.

[1:02:39] Laura Camien: I thank my brain more specifically.

[1:02:43] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I love that it's a good healthy brain, but I also thank it for its continuing ability to learn and for those flashes of dare I say, creative brilliance.

[1:02:55] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:02:55] Susan Blackwell: Things like that, where I'm just sort of like, whoa, look at her go, you know.

[1:03:00] Laura Camien: And I do think that that contributes to what you just said.

[1:03:04] Susan Blackwell: I don't necessarily always write it down. I used to spend more time writing it down, and now I spend more time thinking it.

[1:03:11] Laura Camien: But I can see how that would strengthen those thoughts instead of strengthening the continual thought of, oh, it was just luck or it was just your overwork or what you what I'm not good at.

[1:03:11] Susan Blackwell: I'm not good at this.

[1:03:25] Laura Camien: I'm not good at that.

[1:03:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:03:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:03:27] Susan Blackwell: A hundred percent.

[1:03:28] Laura Camien: I think thoughts of gratitude and also like I'm th yeah, I'm thankful that I'm really good at this.

[1:03:34] Susan Blackwell: Uh I'm thankful that I found work that I'm great at.

[1:03:38] Laura Camien: I'm thankful that I work that I love that's of service to people.

[1:03:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: And that it's okay, honestly, to know that we're good at something.

[1:03:46] Susan Blackwell: It doesn't mean that you're, you know, that you're an asshole to should just smell that the smell of humble paths.

[1:03:56] Laura Camien: I can smell it all the way from Kansas.

[1:03:58] Susan Blackwell: Oh, piping hot right out of the oven.

[1:04:01] Laura Camien: Oh, just like just like Grammy used to make.

[1:04:05] Susan Blackwell: So one of the things that we um that we'll do in our class in terms of our feedback is insist that artists write down the praise that they get during feedback sessions.

[1:04:17] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[1:04:17] Susan Blackwell: And that's also part of this because we can't internalize what we don't remember.

[1:04:22] Laura Camien: And we know that our brains will fix on that one negative note that we got, or the five negative notes or perceived negative notes we got.

[1:04:30] Susan Blackwell: So unless we force it to consider what is going well, so we will insist that artists write down here's what's working about my script or about my project, etc.

[1:04:41] Laura Camien: Um, because it is important that we internalize our success. Dr. Hibbert actually says it's impossible to internalize your success when you don't speak about it to anyone else.

[1:04:54] Susan Blackwell: So many people are afraid to acknowledge a success for fear that it seems like they're bragging.

[1:05:00] Laura Camien: And we don't want to be assholes about it, obviously. But she really stresses how important it is to talk about your successes with your loved ones and people we trust.

[1:05:10] Susan Blackwell: And over time, it will change the way you view yourself.

[1:05:15] Laura Camien: Suze, we try to do that too. You and I have worked on that, especially in regard to money.

[1:05:20] Susan Blackwell: And it's a safe space for us to talk about money we've saved, money we've spent well, getting out of debt, all of these things that are often um I don't know, shrouded in taboo.

[1:05:42] Laura Camien: Yeah. And vice versa. Like it's, you know, but learning to celebrate other people's successes, I think is all equally important. You know, like I don't think like Susan's such a dick. She just told me about like five great things that happened to her. I don't think that. I think how incredible and how wonderful. So surrounding yourself with people who are also either consciously in this pursuit or can just, you know, have the emotional intelligence to support you. I think like learning to take a compliment to me, Dr. Hibbert didn't say this, but Dr. Cammy did. Um I can't wait till somebody gives you your honorary doctorate. And I want to see you in that weird hat. Just you wait. Just you wait. And you'll get another sash. There you go. But I think that learning to take a compliment falls in this category too. Taking a compliment without deflecting is like the first step in internalizing it, I think.

[1:06:43] Susan Blackwell: So I notice I will do things again because I'm afraid that I might make people feel uncomfortable. If they like if they compliment me, I will I still do this. Like, oh, that was sort of accidental. The way I designed someone might compliment, like, I love the the oh the way you designed this, your master bedroom. And I'll be like, oh, that was totally mistake. I didn't actually, that couch was meant for a different room, and it act it all came together accidentally. Not at all because if I had a vision or my skills or anything. And so I'm trying to check myself on that. I'm really trying to just say thank you so much. That means a lot. Like, just say that.

[1:07:24] Laura Camien: Yeah. Because that you can't internalize something that you like deflected and pushed away.

[1:07:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So all of that is important, but there's more. So, in terms of the overwork and avoidance coping mechanisms, overcoming those requires essentially a reassessment of how you define your success. Like, are you currently dividing your time and energy in a way that aligns with what you say is most important to you? How might you recraft your division of time and energy so that it aligns with your values and recognizes the difference between healthy conscientiousness and unhealthy perfectionism?

[1:08:08] Laura Camien: Oh my God. Progress, not perfection, Suze. It's that B plus, B minus thing that we talk about. It's that target is fine most of the time. B plus work out the door, baby. Trump's A plus work every time. When we put out B work, 99% of the time, no one else notices it. Right?

[1:08:29] Susan Blackwell: Another title for this podcast, in addition to listen to Laura and Susan Learn, is B plus work out the door.

[1:08:29] Laura Camien: B plus work out the door. Maybe even B minus. Listen, honestly, no one notices that difference. That last little push towards perfect really doesn't matter to anyone else besides you. And so when we look at how we spend our time, can we let it go and keep moving forward? There may be bigger and better rewards to be gotten by saving that bit of time and spending it elsewhere.

[1:09:01] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Hibbert's motto is that what we do every day makes the biggest difference. It's the small steps that lead to the greatest changes. She says the small everyday things are most important as they can make a huge difference to our mental health. In that medium.com article, she says, I used to think it was the big changes that would make all the difference to my happiness. Imagining a time that would magically arrive when things were easier and I had my life sorted. The trouble is this time never comes. And even if it does, it never makes as big a difference as you think. She suggests three small changes for our everyday lives.

[1:09:45] Laura Camien: Number one, slow down so that you can appreciate what you have, enjoying the small moments that life has to offer. Slow down so you can pay attention. I'm adding this. Slow down so you have time to uh, you know, weekly take stock of what you have accomplished. Take stock of all of the goodness, all of the gratitude.

[1:10:06] Susan Blackwell: Number two is empty time, what we would call a more porous schedule, unscheduled. Unscheduled time. Just to ponder, just to reflect and think. Rest. And then natural highs. She's like, make time for the people and things that I love, not, you know, run again, running so fast and thinking like I have to do all these things, or I'm not good enough. That is, you know, that's the bottom line.

[1:10:37] Laura Camien: And I would say, like, I see people do that my younger years, like the full schedule thing of social things every night, every weekend. Can't allow yourself that downtime.

[1:10:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think those changes are super smart. I will leave you with this final thought from Dr. Hibbert. She says, as I've researched this book and delved deeper into this world, I've come to realize that imposter syndrome involves much more than just feeling fraudulent, and that it presents itself in a long list of different ways. It may appear as insecurity, self-doubt, fear of failure, and perfectionism, or as self-criticism, low self-esteem, an inability to accept compliments, or a focus on where you are falling short.

[1:11:29] Laura Camien: It's a guard against arrogance and a safety net in case everything goes wrong. This list, rather than being titled imposter syndrome, could be titled The Problems of Being Human. It is a collective experience, which is why it is time to talk about it openly because it's holding so many people back from a fully engaged life.

[1:11:54] Susan Blackwell: Boom.

[1:11:56] Laura Camien: Oh how are you doing?

[1:12:00] Susan Blackwell: I it's it's I'm I uh I a couple of the characters in my brain speaking up are okay are speaking up. Character two doesn't want to lose their job essentially hanging on. I don't know about I I'm just sort of like I have noticed, I do observe that something has changed and is changing. I am not operating the way that I did like when I talk about that, I can work as hard, as hard, as hard, as hard, as hard as I can and just get to C level. That feels like something from like 15 years ago.

[1:12:37] Laura Camien: That's right. Because I think you could recognize now that you are well beyond C level.

[1:12:42] Susan Blackwell: Yes, right.

[1:12:43] Laura Camien: Yeah. But I think that there are times when there are moments. That's why I asked you, yeah, like can it pop up for a moment and can it pop up in different areas in your life where I have explored it and made some shifts in the way that I operate at certain times and in certain areas of my life. I need to work more with it. It's going to be helpful for me honestly to go back and edit this episode of the podcast and re-listen to it, to take another pass at absorbing it. But I feel like motions have been made and and it continues to change. I can recognize that in myself, and I also can see that there's still room for growth.

[1:13:31] Susan Blackwell: 100%. I think if you're looking for it, it's those areas where no matter what evidence is um presented to your qualifications for something, your capabilities, where you still believe, no, I'm not very, I'm not very good at that. And we have clients who are like, we could say to them, but you're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this. And they're like, yeah, but I I don't, I don't think I'm really an artist or really a writer or really a what have you.

[1:14:08] Laura Camien: I think about people that we have that tell the story that I don't get much done.

[1:14:13] Susan Blackwell: Oh, exactly. I didn't get much done this week. And then they'll say, okay, do you want to listen to the things I did get done? And they'll start reading what they've created. And it's like, if I got done what you got done this week in terms of my writing, my creativity, my project advancement, I would probably be like, look what I got done. Like it would be, yeah. I would like to think it would be more of a celebration.

[1:14:42] Laura Camien: But let's be honest, maybe, maybe that old imposter syndrome piece of me would also be saying, it also, Laura, as I'm saying that, I can see how it keeps us safe. Because if you preamble with, I mean, uh it was all just like it was a happy accident that the master bedroom came together that way, or I didn't get very much done this week. That's it was just like a really quick crazy week. And then you blow minds with the master bedroom or what you wrote that week. It it's it's an interesting protection cloak too.

[1:15:16] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[1:15:17] Laura Camien: I think yes, until you realize like it, you're doing it to your own detriment. You're doing it like within your mind. You're not allowing your own mind to embrace the truth of you, which is you are intelligent. You are talented, you are capable, you are absolutely suited to do this thing, whatever it is you're doing. And you're not allowing yourself to embrace those truths. Thereby, you're cutting off that path, that path that is labeled easy. Here, come down this way. This could be easier for you, but you're chapping instead to go down a path that is like, you know, fraught with peril and difficult and challenging because it feels more like that feels more appropriate because I'm not really good at these things, but maybe if I struggle through it.

[1:16:15] Susan Blackwell: So good, Laura. I'm gonna continue learning. I'll keep learning and growing. Um that was great. I hope it's helpful. And I think we'll do some curriculum. I think we we could um do some work on this because it'll be an anonymously helpful.

[1:16:35] Laura Camien: Exactly. Let's let's learn it, let's get our arms around it and let's break the let's break the cycle.

[1:16:47] Susan Blackwell: And I think that's it. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Ladape and Seminole people. And as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:16:58] Laura Camien: Hey, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, you should email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily, as you know, happily take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you need to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[1:17:24] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really helps other listeners to find us, especially the subscription part. So go on and smash that subscribe button.

[1:17:38] Laura Camien: Also, if you like this podcast, we say that as a joke around our house. Smash that subscribe button, smash that like button. Um if you like this podcast, go on and smash that subscribe button. It's so broy.

[1:17:44] Susan Blackwell: If you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, lighten up. It's summertime, everybody. Something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing. We are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:18:12] Laura Camien: You gotta take it and make it when I bope it into something that inspires me.

[1:18:22] Susan Blackwell: I dump it in the spark files.

[1:18:32] Laura Camien: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:18:35] Susan Blackwell: Sparkfile.

[1:18:37] Laura Camien: I jump into my sparkfiles.

[1:18:40] Susan Blackwell: Sparkfile.

[1:18:42] Laura Camien: Let's open up the sparkfile.