This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: The Sparks File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Laura Camien: Please use your discretion.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I want to be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark spot.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark!

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark file.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file!

[0:32] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of The Spark File community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, hey, hey, hey, welcome, friend.

[1:02] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: You know, it really is true.

[1:11] Laura Camien: It really is true.

[1:12] Susan Blackwell: It really is true.

[1:13] Laura Camien: These are true facts we state.

[1:15] Susan Blackwell: You may also be asking yourself, what exactly is a Sparks File?

[1:15] Laura Camien: A Spark File is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:26] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:36] Laura Camien: But do not despair.

[1:38] Susan Blackwell: We are collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make something like this podcast.

[1:55] Laura Camien: Or an approach to talking about death that gives us more life.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I love it. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our Sparks File and exchange some sparks.

[2:07] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:14] Laura Camien: So if something lights you up, we encourage you to please, for the love of God, take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:22] Susan Blackwell: Without further ado, let's open up the Sparks File.

[2:27] Laura Camien: You know, Susan, I was getting ready today.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: Like just getting ready, getting ready for the day.

[2:33] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: And I was just like, man, we do these episodes of the podcast, and there's so many good ideas that get thrown around, and so many things that we, if we chose to, we could take deeper dives on and maybe be activated by.

[2:48] Laura Camien: And I was kind of bummed because I was like, I don't have enough time in my life.

[2:54] Susan Blackwell: I will not have enough days in this lifetime to get to all these things.

[2:57] Laura Camien: And I was like, that's why you say that thing in the podcast intro, dum dum.

[3:01] Susan Blackwell: Because we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[3:05] Laura Camien: You know, it's not a homework assignment. You don't have to do all the things, you just have to let them wash over you.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And some will move you into action, and some will, you know, sometimes I'll hear like an amazing thing that like lights me up.

[3:21] Laura Camien: It's a spark, and I'm like, oh, that would be so great as a this, that, or the other thing.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: And then I'm like, but it's not for me.

[3:31] Laura Camien: It's for someone else. Some that little thing is gonna flitter on to the next person, and they're gonna grab it and run with it.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:39] Laura Camien: Yeah. I'm gonna confess something that I don't know if I should confess, but I'm doing it anyway.

[3:45] Susan Blackwell: Some of like the things that spark me the most, deep, deep, deeply sparked by these things, are big, big topics.

[3:54] Laura Camien: I've not even broached them for the podcast because I'm just like every time I think about this A, B, or C, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so huge.

[4:06] Susan Blackwell: I need a way into it that's gonna be just, you know, a little 45-minute, 50-minute conversation.

[4:12] Laura Camien: Yes.

[4:13] Susan Blackwell: But it's so big and it's almost like so important to me.

[4:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:17] Susan Blackwell: That I wouldn't want to do it halfway.

[4:20] Laura Camien: I don't want to half ass it.

[4:21] Susan Blackwell: And I'm not saying we're gonna half ass these, but yeah.

[4:24] Laura Camien: But you know, sometimes we have more time than others.

[4:27] Susan Blackwell: And so usually I'm like, oh no, I don't have time to write that big old juicy spark right now.

[4:33] Laura Camien: I think you share that sentiment with a lot of people who are like, I have a spark or source material, and that could be source material, it could be something you optioned, it could be something that happened to you in your life, and you're like, this is important to me, and I want to do it justice.

[4:51] Susan Blackwell: And so I don't have the wherewithal or the time or whatever to do it justice now.

[4:57] Laura Camien: So I'm just gonna—well I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm gonna say where it becomes problematic is when our perfectionism chimes in because then it's like, oh, I don't think I could do this perfectly and exactly the way I envision doing it in my head.

[5:14] Susan Blackwell: I'm not gonna have, and so I don't do it at all.

[5:17] Laura Camien: And I'm just like, all right, I'm not sure that's the answer, Laura.

[5:20] Susan Blackwell: I'm saying this to myself, Laura.

[5:23] Laura Camien: The answer may be, how do you take a bite of this?

[5:27] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[5:28] Laura Camien: And release all attachment to it being perfect, put enough of it out there that it may spark someone else that they run with it and create the most perfect thing ever in regard to it.

[5:40] Susan Blackwell: Because if I just hold on to it, because I don't think I could write the perfect spark or the perfect episode.

[5:47] Laura Camien: When ironically, there are other episodes, I'm like, well, this isn't perfect.

[5:51] Susan Blackwell: I don't care.

[5:52] Laura Camien: I'm doing it, we're gonna have a good time talking about it, and we run with it.

[5:56] Susan Blackwell: And I'm just like interesting because I don't care as deeply about that as I do these ones that are sitting on a shelf that are like, oh, these are precious, precious, precious sparks.

[6:07] Laura Camien: Yeah, but I will say, just point counterpoint.

[6:11] Susan Blackwell: I remember I was taking this class, and there was this sentiment shared about if there's something that you're like, I don't think I'm quite ready for that yet.

[6:22] Laura Camien: Just take a leap, take a swing, just like start it, start it now.

[6:28] Susan Blackwell: It's a little bit like that Goethe.

[6:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it.

[6:34] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, I'm gonna start it.

[6:35] Laura Camien: And I knew intuitively, I was like, you really aren't quite ready for this.

[6:40] Susan Blackwell: Like, yeah, the Avengers haven't completely assembled inside of you to—

[6:40] Laura Camien: That's right.

[6:46] Susan Blackwell: And it wasn't perfectionism-based, it was like it wasn't a fear, it was an intuition, and I started it and it was a little bit of a missed start because I was just like, you're not quite there yet.

[6:57] Laura Camien: So I think there's a fine distinction in what we're talking about here, which is if the hold up is around perfectionism, I think that's interesting to look at.

[7:08] Susan Blackwell: If it's an intuition about like, I need to marshal my forces, or there's something more I want to learn.

[7:17] Laura Camien: That's tricky too.

[7:19] Susan Blackwell: I need another course, the drag queen introduced to us by wheels.

[7:22] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[7:23] Susan Blackwell: It's really hard to parse that, but it's worthy work, like really looking at that.

[7:29] Laura Camien: Agreed.

[7:29] Susan Blackwell: And asking, all right, if I'm not ready to write the ultimate life-changing, transformative piece based on this spark.

[7:39] Laura Camien: Maybe I'm just ready to share 45 minutes of conversation about this spark to share with the world.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: Like it's two different things.

[7:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[7:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I like to remember that.

[7:49] Laura Camien: Of like, right, right, right. This is just us talking for 45 minutes, sharing it with someone else.

[7:54] Susan Blackwell: So they might be like, guess what? I'm ready to take that baton and run with it, and I'll take it all the way home.

[8:00] Laura Camien: Great.

[8:01] Susan Blackwell: That's what this podcast is about.

[8:03] In the spirit of that, I feel like I have one of these for you today.

[8:06] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm excited.

[8:08] Susan Blackwell: This is a big topic.

[8:09] And there's part of me preparing for this today that I was like, oh, I wish these two or three things could happen before I do this Sparks so I can report back on it.

[8:21] Laura Camien: I wish I was a little more ready or I had more experience with this before I talk about it.

[8:26] Susan Blackwell: Because it is a big topic, but I'm not going to pump the brakes.

[8:30] Laura Camien: Look at you.

[8:31] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna jump in.

[8:32] Laura Camien: I'm proud of you.

[8:33] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited, and I can't wait to hear it.

[8:35] Laura Camien: All right.

[8:36] Susan Blackwell: And then maybe when I have more, you'll see, you'll see when I get into it.

[8:41] Laura Camien: Okay.

[8:46] Susan Blackwell: But today I'm gonna talk about, we're gonna talk about—oh, death.

[8:46] Laura Camien: Oh, okay.

[8:46] Susan Blackwell: We're gonna talk about death.

[8:55] Laura Camien: Cams, you know, this is a subject I lean straight into.

[8:59] Susan Blackwell: You do think it's healthy to think about death, and I think it's healthy to talk about death.

[9:04] Laura Camien: And I really do believe that getting comfortable talking about death and mortality is a key to living well, including unlocking our creativity and our self-expression.

[9:16] Susan Blackwell: So, a story I've told on this podcast before, in my first acting class in college, I had this drama teacher who had us do this exercise where all of us acting students were zipping around the acting studio like a bunch of little hummingbirds, and then the teacher from time to time would say, "Pause," and we'd all stop, we'd hover wherever we were, and our teacher would say, "Consider this," unpause, and we'd all like frenetic, frenetic little molecules bouncing around and be like, "Pause, consider that."

[9:44] Laura Camien: So, one of the things our teacher asked us to consider in the pause, he said, "The greatest artists are those who are willing to contemplate their own mortality," on pause, and it just like whoa, it cut through, it stays with me decades later.

[10:01] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[10:02] Laura Camien: And I think the older I get and the more that I live and create, the more I understand what that teacher was getting at when we were doing that.

[10:15] Susan Blackwell: I think that if you are brave or comfortable enough to think about and talk about death, it makes you more brave and comfortable to be self-expressed about so many other dimensions of the human experience.

[10:32] Laura Camien: I concur, and I have to say, you've helped me a great deal, like gain comfort in this area.

[10:39] Susan Blackwell: I realized I, like many, many other people, having been brought up in different ways, but for me it was, you know, in a narcissistic home.

[10:49] Laura Camien: But that the magical thinking aspect of it and understanding our minds better, if you don't ever address that about yourself, it's difficult to talk about death because in the magical thinking world where you believe your thoughts can instantly create something.

[11:08] Susan Blackwell: So a negative thought can create a negative outcome.

[11:11] Laura Camien: Like I thought, oh, I wish that person would die, and then they die, and you're like, I did that, right?

[11:18] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[11:19] Laura Camien: Or if you think about yourself dying, are you bringing about this outcome faster than it would have?

[11:26] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[11:27] Laura Camien: So you sort of avoid those types of topics.

[11:30] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[11:31] Laura Camien: Right.

[11:31] Susan Blackwell: But years of therapy later and a friendship with Susan Blackwell, and I'm happy to do that.

[11:36] Laura Camien: You will not stop talking about, but also the idea of being able to hold multiple truths at one time.

[11:45] Susan Blackwell: I said to Wes not long ago, it was the strangest thing.

[11:49] Laura Camien: I was like, I just want the record to state.

[11:52] Susan Blackwell: And he's like, oh god, what is it?

[11:54] Laura Camien: And I was like, I just want the record to state, like if I died tomorrow, I have already lived a really incredible life that I feel so grateful for and so excited by.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: But having learned that two of these two things can coexist in my mind, yes, was an essential part of being able to talk about death.

[12:31] Susan Blackwell: And you're not sealing your fate by saying something like that.

[12:34] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[12:35] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[12:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:37] Susan Blackwell: I love that you said that.

[12:39] Laura Camien: And I love that you feel that way.

[12:43] Susan Blackwell: I was recently home visiting my family, and I was alone in the living room with my father, who is in his 80s, and this popped out of his mouth.

[12:51] Susan Blackwell: He said something along the lines of, you know, I was just like, How are you doing? And he said, you know, I don't know how long I have or how I'll go. But I do know that I don't have that much time, and I don't know how I'll go, but I know I'm supposed to be using this time that I have, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be doing with it. And in that moment, I was a little bit stunned. And I said something like, I think you're doing it, Dad. You're spending time with people you love, people who love you. I think this is it. I think this is it. You're doing it. But I have to admit, I was taken by surprise, but the answer felt a little incomplete. And it's taken me some time to wrap my mind around this sort of conundrum that he posed.

And I was also like, oh no, I already asked myself this question all the time now and not in a good way. So what I mean by that is often during the course of an average day, I'll think, is this what I should be doing with my time? Is this the best way to use my time? And it's not a peaceful thing, it's more like a rumination. That especially prevents me from enjoying resting. But I recognize something in my dad's quandary that made me think, number one, I come by this line of thinking honestly. And number two, I want to get a handle on this now. So when I'm God willing in my 80s, I'm not tormenting myself by asking, is this what I'm supposed to be doing with my time? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing with my time? It's and I don't want to jump your spark if you're gonna get into this, but I'm curious. Do you think that that question is related to the idea of knowing your purpose in life?

[14:39] Laura Camien: No, for me, it's usually like when I'm trying to rest. It's my brain tormenting me when I'm trying to rest. And I'm like, not doing this right. You're not you're not doing this right, essentially. But my dad, but I recognize my dad cast forward decades. I recognized in this person, my father. I was like, oh my God, I ask myself the same question in a time when like really, dad, it's okay to read and visit with people, and there's nothing that you have to be doing. You can just be doing this and enjoy the passage of time, enjoying the passage of time. So yeah, I uh it helps to have a clear understanding of my purpose, which I do. It's harder for me to apply that to times when it's just sort of like, well, it's interesting just sitting here right now. I'm like, you actually could apply your purpose, Susan, to times when you want to rest as well to be free to rest.

[15:40] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh. And to know that that rest is essential to being able to fulfill your purpose. Well done. This has been another episode of Sparkle. Just kidding. Back to my dad. And and my dad's quandary and my quandary about how to respond to his wondering about how best to be spending this time when he's in his 80s. So something that has been helping me is a book by Michael Hebb called Let's Talk About Death Over Dinner. Woof. That first time you mentioned that title to me, I was like, oh. Let's talk about death over dinner over dinner. Because you were like, oh no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to a death dinner party, aren't I? said Laura Camien knowingly.

[16:22] Laura Camien: Yeah. Um but you know what? I would. I would do that now, but I wouldn't have like say, I don't know, five, eight years ago. No, I wouldn't have. I think it's definitely in the cards for you by the end of this spark. I think you're going to be you're gonna be ready to rock. So this book, Let's Talk About Death Over Dinner by Michael Hebb, which I have to say I think is a really beautifully researched and crafted book. Michael Hebb makes the case for the many reasons why talking about death is extremely important. And then he provides us with an approach for when, where, and how to talk about death, the invitation, the setting, the prompts to bring conversation around this topic to life. So I'd like to start with why.

Why talk about death? Now, as you know with me, Michael was preaching to the choir. But I know that entering into this conversation isn't everyone's first choice. For many people, they are very clear why they don't want to talk about death. It is sad, it's scary, it might be anxiety inducing. Maybe they don't want to consider what it might feel like to lose someone or something they care about, like a beloved partner or pet. Maybe it's terrifying to think about how they might die. Maybe we've watched a parent suffer with a disease that we may inherit. So it's like very real and very scary. And the anxiety of someone having to look through my stuff and figure out where shit is.

[17:53] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes. I'm embarrassed. I'm not great at organizing these files. Yeah. And I'm just like, oh God, when I'm dead, will I feel embarrassment about that? I don't know. Probably not. I'm guessing not, but you may believe otherwise. I think sometimes we're scared because we can't know for sure what's on the other side of our inevitable deaths. We were talking about this with our friend and Sparkfile alum Celia Keenan-Bolger a few days ago. Hi Celia.

[18:21] Laura Camien: Hi Celia.

[18:23] Susan Blackwell: I realized in real time in that conversation that two facts we know that we will die and we have no idea what happens to us when we die. The absolute knowing and the absolute not knowing are like these twin truths. They are like two sides of the same coin back to back. And that's a pretty scary roller coaster ride for anyone to contemplate let alone knowing like if you're in your 80s or you have a terminal diagnosis, which we all do, like knowing you're about to cruise into that like I know I'm going to die. I don't know how exactly it's going to happen and I don't know what's on the other side. It's big. And then contemplate this I think as humans that's the gift that separates us from other animals because to our knowledge they don't sit around contemplating their own demise.

[19:15] Laura Camien: Right.

[19:16] Susan Blackwell: And we have we have that ability.

[19:18] Laura Camien: We do.

[19:19] Susan Blackwell: Hey.

[19:20] Laura Camien: We do.

[19:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. This podcast is the funnest. So those are some reasons, just a few of the greatest hits of why we don't want to talk about death. Now I want to talk about why talking about death is good, healthy, and important.

[19:39] Laura Camien: Yes, tell us.

[19:40] Susan Blackwell: Why? Why do we want to talk about death? Why? Number one, our health. According to Michael Hebb, this fucking blew my butt off. According to Michael Hebb, a repressed conversation can occupy the same space in the psyche as a secret.

[19:58] Laura Camien: Whoa, say that again.

[20:00] Susan Blackwell: A repressed conversation, like one about death can occupy the same space in the psyche as a secret. He goes on. A recent study from the National Institute of Health confirms that every time you think about a deeply held secret, stress hormones such as cortisol can surge, impacting your memory, blood pressure, and metabolism. The effects of chronic exposure to elevated levels of cortisol include many maladies we suffer today, from high blood pressure to anxiety. I had never heard that put so clearly, but it totally articulates something I suspected. That repressed conversations and secrets that we keep add to stress levels, which really can diminish our health. It's like that closed door in your brain that you walk by and you're like, don't open that, don't open that, you know.

[20:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:51] Susan Blackwell: But it just is a stress every time you even contemplate like what's behind there.

[20:56] Laura Camien: Yeah, and that stress can really be bad for our health.

[20:59] Susan Blackwell: Another reason to talk about death, so we can get what we want. Again, Michael Hebb writes in his recent testimony to Congress, Dr. Atoul Gwande, who we love and we've discussed on this podcast. Yes, made a case for doctors asking patients about their priorities of care as their end draws near. And this is Dr. Gwande, these are his words. The most effective and important way to learn these priorities is to ask people about them. The overwhelming majority of the time, however, we don't ask, whether as clinicians or as family members, when we don't ask, the care and treatment we provide usually fall out of alignment with people's priorities. And the result is suffering. But when we do ask and work to align our care with their priorities, the results are extraordinary.

So by saying what we want, you can get what you want. And per Michael Hebb, it's not just doctors and clinicians who fail to have conversations about what people want for their end of life. It's families too. And when we do ask, it's generally not until close to the very end. According to Michael Hebb, a number of studies have demonstrated that when people with serious illness have discussed their goals and wishes for their care with their clinician, the outcome is far better. They suffer less, they are more physically capable, and they are better able for a longer period to interact with others. Their family members were also markedly less likely to experience depression. They enroll in hospice sooner, but they do not die sooner. On average, in fact, they live longer. The ones who talk about it, the ones who talk about death.

[22:46] Laura Camien: I feel like I have some regrets about, you know, it hasn't happened in a long time, but but sometimes when people, when their death is imminent and they want to talk about it, families can like hush them, basically.

[23:00] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[23:00] Laura Camien: Oh, dad, don't talk, you know, don't talk like that.

[23:03] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. I'm thinking like about my dad, and who's wanted to talk to us. And I think I've gotten better, thankfully, because he will be like, I just want you to know, uh, full disclosure, my my dad has Parkinson's and the pacemaker and multiple myeloma, and has been you know, dealing with these things for some time, and he has wanted on occasion to talk about his death.

[23:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[23:29] Susan Blackwell: And I have that immediate urge of like, oh dad, but you got lots of time in front, you know, and then I stop myself.

[23:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[23:39] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, and and what do you what do you been thinking about, Dad? And how does that make you feel? And what do you want to say about that? I just think about how many times people have been hushed because we can't handle the discomfort. And I'm like, my God, they're the one who's going through it. Why why can't the least we could do is show up for the conversation.

[24:00] Laura Camien: Is hang.

[24:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[24:02] Susan Blackwell: Do you feel like Laura, based on what you just said, do you feel like now you're like hanging in there?

[24:07] Laura Camien: Oh, and letting your dad steer it more.

[24:10] Yes.

[24:10] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[24:10] Laura Camien: And I try to ask questions and I try to just listen, just be there, you know, as he once. He has had a thing for a while now where he's really wanted it to sink in to us kids, all of us kids, and we're not really kids anymore, but he'll just be like, you know, I'm not going to get better.

[24:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:33] Laura Camien: This is not a thing where it's like they're they're uh curing me and I'm gonna get better. And I'm like, I know, dad, I know. Um, and how do you feel about that? And like it's just been really important for him to know because I think a lot of people, again, because of the discomfort, sort of treat it that way of like, well, tomorrow you'll feel better. And he's like, I'm not. If I have a good day, that's the best I'm going to feel. Like, he's just like, I think it's important for him to embrace that too, to be like, this is what it is, and is what it will be.

[25:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, to be able to be with that and not negate it or shush it, yeah, is it it requires that we all reckon, like we all say, yeah. You're really good at it, Suze. I feel like I've learned so much from you. You're just really, really good at it. You can hang with a difficult conversation.

[25:37] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[25:38] Laura Camien: Yeah, I don't I I can stay in even through sadness or I can I can hang in. I can hang in.

[25:46] Susan Blackwell: I appreciate that about you. I'm always trying to be get better at it though, as evidenced by this very smoke. Another reason to talk about death is financial. Again, Michael Hebb writes, at the most tangible level, our reluctance to have this conversation is costing us money every single day. A study from the this book is so well researched. Wow. A study from the Mount Sinai School of Medicine found that 43% of Medicare recipients spend more than their total assets out of pocket on end of life care. Medical care is the number one factor in U.S. bankruptcies with end-of-life care expenses, particularly hospital expenses, leading the charge. And although approximately 80% of Americans want to die at home, this makes me so sad, only 20% of them do.

More than half of us are not getting what we want or what we're entitled to, and we're paying dearly for it. People are bankrupting their families, and for little good reason. Most of them don't even want expensive, extreme life prolonging measures, but they haven't talked to their families about their preferences, and no one has asked. But wait, there's more, Michael Hebb writes further. Because financial exploitation cases are underreported, in part because of embarrassment, it's difficult to put a precise number on it. But there may be as many as five million elderly victims of financial exploitation a year in the United States. And then there's the cost that comes with death itself. Countless grieving family members enter funeral homes, and when plans haven't been discussed in advance, making decisions about coffins and burial based on funeral directors upselling them.

In the fog of grief, they spend money their family doesn't necessarily have to fulfill a sense of duty that the deceased would never have wanted from them. And again, if we're not clear about what we want, if we don't express our wishes, our wishes can't be honored. Wow. So it I just thank you, Michael Hebb, for your beautiful writing. I just read a lot of it right here on this podcast. And when you have it's difficult to talk about death sandwiched with it's difficult and taboo to talk about money, it is a recipe for all sorts of mayhem.

[28:21] Laura Camien: It really is. And I I keep thinking about the wishes that you mentioned. You know, if you don't talk about money, you can't fulfill their wishes. But also if you don't talk about money, honestly, like a person who's like, well, I want, you know, a silk lined coffin and I want blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if you can talk openly and say, well, now, grandma, the impact of that would be this on the family. There might be some credit card debt in the family.

[28:49] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. And to that, the person, again, if you're speaking openly, the person might be like, oh my gosh, no, I don't want that. I don't want it that bad. I don't want you to go into debt for it. Put me in a cedar coffin, call it a day. You know, I don't know that I've ever heard in all honesty, and I haven't talked with a million people about this, but I don't think I've ever heard somebody say, I want a silk-lined mahogany coffin with gold detailing. Like I've never heard that. I don't know that people want that. I but we don't know. I mean, I have no idea. We should talk to more people.

[29:24] Laura Camien: Yeah. I literally know my dad and stepmom's wishes, and I know Wes's.

[29:33] Susan Blackwell: That's great. Yeah. Because those are people that you may be called upon to execute those wishes.

[29:40] Laura Camien: And they all want mahogany caskets.

[29:44] Susan Blackwell: Gold detailing. Just kidding. Nobody wants that.

[29:48] Laura Camien: Nobody wants with you.

[29:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But you know, we but to your point, if we don't talk about it, we're making assumptions.

[29:56] Laura Camien: That's right. And those could be very not just expensive, but they could also be, as Michael had is saying, not in alignment with what people might have wanted had we simply had the conversation.

[30:08] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. Or what they might have been fine with.

[30:10] Laura Camien: Yeah. I think one of the most important reasons to talk about death is because it stands to bring us closer to each other and to ourselves. Heb writes We spend so much time, energy, and money focused on self-improvement. We are constantly seeking to be better, to do life better. We go to therapy and meditation courses, we go on diet, sign up for CrossFit, and make improvements to our spending. We are a culture obsessed with transformation, and yet we fail to recognize that all transformation includes death and rebirth. And it's so interesting that this is a way that we can really know ourselves and really come at transformation from one of the most significant transformations in our lives, uh it right alongside birth.

It really has the potential to unlock stuff. On one hand, it's all around us, and we flock to it with like the true listening to true crime and just morbid fascinations with things like traffic accidents. But when it comes to talking about it with one another honestly and openly, not so much, not so much.

[31:27] Susan Blackwell: I find that to be so ironic because we are in America, we are a country built largely on religions. I mean, yeah, you know, it's been sown throughout. And I think a large part of organized religion is to help us feel better about death. It is there to help us feel better about what's beyond.

[31:49] Laura Camien: I could not agree with you more. It's to answer a question, an unanswerable question.

[31:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes, exactly. And to say, with some measure of certainty, here's an answer to an unanswerable question. Doesn't that feel better?

[32:05] Laura Camien: Yes. And to help to guide you to live your life a certain way while you're here.

[32:10] Susan Blackwell: Right. So that you may reap rewards on the other side. And I just find it ironic that despite all of that, culturally, we still have a hard time talking about death.

[32:23] Laura Camien: Yeah. When that entire framework exists for people to hopefully feel better about talking about death and still no go.

[32:34] Susan Blackwell: He writes really honestly in his book about how his family just stopped talking when his father died. And he writes this passage, because my family wasn't talking about what was most on our minds, staying away from each other was the safest and healthiest thing we can do. We didn't talk about my dad, and as a result, we didn't talk much at all. Being unable to talk about my grief or loss with my peers left me feeling depressed, confused, and terribly alone. And I I was like, I don't think Michael Hebb is alone in that. I think other people experience some version of that. Because we're we've we've made a tacit agreement that we're not gonna talk about X, we're not talking at all. And it's back to that piece about keeping a secret or having like an avoided conversation is the source of so much stress, which again can really diminish our health.

[33:35] Laura Camien: Wow.

[33:35] Susan Blackwell: Michael Hebb writes this from where I sit, the writing is on the wall. I feel like I'm doing a book report on this, but the right this writing is so good. So good. I can't I can't say it better than you, Michael Hebb. From where I sit, the writing is on the wall. It is time to face the inevitable, and we need a grassroots movement. We need to face our mortality as a village, not as isolated individuals. Funerals, law offices, and hospitals shouldn't be the only place we confront the passing of a loved one. The proper depth of this conversation can't happen when you feel intimidated, overwhelmed, and sad. It happens when you feel comfortable and are not staring down a crisis, which leads to his call to action, which is let's talk about death over dinner.

[34:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Oh amazing. He really wants to invite people to change the way that we all talk about death one conversation at a time. And it could be over dinner, proverbally. He says something simple but good, not too fussy. It could be pizza from your favorite restaurant. It could be grilled cheeses and soup. It could be sharing beers on a folding chair on the porch. But let's talk about it. Let's talk about it.

[34:51] Laura Camien: You know what I find interesting and uh it's darker. I'm gonna go, it's a little bit darker.

[34:56] Susan Blackwell: Take it darker.

[34:58] Laura Camien: But just you know, we're talking on a personal level and how it could um affect our personal lives, our families' lives. But when you look at like the big picture, there are certain industries that benefit from us not talking about this. I think that if people became more aware, they would be enraged. Like anyone who's ever had a loved one in a nursing home or assisted living. Yeah, if we all got more aware and more honest about what our end of lives might look like, what it might cost us just to die, what it might cost us to be cared for, the burdens we would leave each other, we would get enraged and say, this is this is bullshit.

[35:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[35:46] Laura Camien: And there needs to be a better system. And one that doesn't just take advantage of old people, one that doesn't just like, okay, let we'll vacuum out your bank account. That's right. We'll park you in this facility while we drain down your health insurance.

[36:03] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[36:03] Laura Camien: And once that's drained down, we're gonna have to move you along. We're gonna, we're we're done. And then on the flip side of like, I don't know how you feel about the you know, Dr. Kaborkian and all of all of the work around people having more agency in their own death, you know, it's it's shocking what it takes to be able to decide, I think I'm good here. And I have made a conscious decision and I'm ready to go.

[36:30] Susan Blackwell: And death with dignity.

[36:32] Laura Camien: Yeah. Exactly. And in our country, that's very hard, again, that's probably related to religion. It's very hard for a person to have that kind of dignity and be able to make those choices for themselves. Anyway, I've just got myself riled up, but there's a lot of reasons to for all of us to start talking about it.

[36:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. He really stresses that given the right framing, this quote difficult unquote conversation does not need to be difficult. It can be liberating and transformative. It can bring us closer together, put us in touch with our humanity, remind us what really matters. It can leave us stronger and wiser and bolder than we were before. And these are his words, it can prepare us to have another conversation when crisis or a terminal diagnosis does arise that we weren't ready to have before.

[37:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:27] Susan Blackwell: And again, just want to say it again for anyone who wasn't paying attention the first time. The studies are clear. Open conversations with your family, doctors, and caregivers about your end of life wishes result in better care, less suffering, and a longer life.

[37:41] Laura Camien: Nice.

[37:42] Susan Blackwell: Michael Hebb reports this conversations about death have even proved to make us funnier and more willing to laugh. So there's a spark for all you comedians and humorists and screenwriters and people who like laughing. If you want to be funnier or if you want to laugh more, be willing to lean in to real talk, whether it's about death or other things, you know, that are sort of like taboo.

[38:08] Laura Camien: Nice.

[38:09] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, I thought it would be fun today to use a few of the instructions and prompts from Michael Hebb's book, Let's Talk About Death Over Dinner.

[38:18] Laura Camien: Okay.

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: It'll be a little more like let's talk about death over podcasting microphones, but you get the idea.

[38:23] Susan Blackwell: And listeners, you can play along as you listen.

[38:26] Susan Blackwell: And if anything comes up for you, write us at the sparkfile at gmail.com and let us know what's worked for you.

[38:31] Susan Blackwell: So we're just skimming the surface.

[38:34] Susan Blackwell: This book is rich and delicious, and I highly recommend it.

[38:39] Susan Blackwell: If it speaks to you, give it a listen or read it.

[38:43] Susan Blackwell: It is num num good.

[38:45] Susan Blackwell: We'll just have a little fun.

[38:46] Susan Blackwell: So starting with the invitation, Michael Hebb in the book provides a template for an email invitation that you can send out in case you were interested in having one of these discussions over a dinner.

[39:00] Susan Blackwell: So I've customized it for my purposes today.

[39:03] Susan Blackwell: It's addressed to Laura, and it goes like this.

[39:07] Susan Blackwell: Baby Cams, this might be the most unusual dinner or podcasting invitation I have ever sent, but bear with me.

[39:14] Susan Blackwell: I think we are in for a remarkable experience.

[39:18] Susan Blackwell: I would be honored if you would take the time to join me for dinner, aka podcasting, and engage in a conversation about death.

[39:25] Susan Blackwell: This is not meant to be a morbid conversation, but instead a very human one where we consider what we want both in life and during its closure.

[39:34] Susan Blackwell: Through sharing our thoughts and feelings on this subject, we can more readily move through our fears, shed inhibitions, and forge a deeper understanding and connection with our loved ones.

[39:44] Susan Blackwell: Sincerely, Susan.

[39:49] Laura Camien: Where do I RSVP?

[39:51] Laura Camien: Do you accept my invitation or should we stop the recording now?

[39:54] Susan Blackwell: I accept.

[39:56] Laura Camien: Count me in.

[39:58] Susan Blackwell: All right.

[39:58] Susan Blackwell: Let's do this.

[39:59] Susan Blackwell: Okay, next step.

[40:00] Susan Blackwell: Before we eat or continue podcasting, I would love it if we could each honor someone who is no longer with us, someone who has died, who had a positive impact on your life.

[40:14] Susan Blackwell: Michael Hebb suggests you choose the first person who comes to mind.

[40:18] Susan Blackwell: Don't edit.

[40:19] Susan Blackwell: They're the first to your thoughts for a reason.

[40:22] Susan Blackwell: Tell us their name, how they've impacted your life, and then we'll raise a glass in their honor.

[40:27] Susan Blackwell: You're gonna want to keep it to about a minute, and then we'll all want to dig into this food or continue podcasting.

[40:34] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien.

[40:35] Susan Blackwell: Who comes to mind for you?

[40:37] Laura Camien: Well, obviously, the very first thing that popped into my mind was my mom, Ruthie Lane Marcy.

[40:45] Laura Camien: That's her maiden name.

[40:46] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[40:47] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[40:48] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:49] Laura Camien: My sister's my sister got my mom's maiden name as her first name.

[40:53] Susan Blackwell: I didn't realize that.

[40:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:55] Laura Camien: And then I have I ever told you that I was almost named Roberta?

[40:55] Susan Blackwell: No.

[40:55] Laura Camien: I was almost named Roberta after my dad, because my sister had my mom's maiden name and my dad's last name, Combo.

[41:05] Laura Camien: And then so they were like, well, then I could be like Roberta, Camien, and I'd be called Bobby.

[41:10] Susan Blackwell: Ah.

[41:11] Laura Camien: Bobby.

[41:11] Laura Camien: And I wouldn't have minded that because I love I love my dad's very cute.

[41:15] Laura Camien: But so my mom, Ruthie Lane Marcy, and she had an incredible impact on me, both challenging and difficult and ultimately quite positive.

[41:30] Laura Camien: I think she made me stronger.

[41:32] Laura Camien: I think she made me see some generational pain.

[41:37] Laura Camien: And I think that she helped to tee me up to be the person who would one of the people who would break that chain and not carry it forward.

[41:49] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[41:50] Laura Camien: I think she had high expectations for me.

[41:52] Laura Camien: And although I questioned some of the ways she expressed her care and love for me, I think ultimately, she did good.

[41:52] Laura Camien: She did good.

[42:03] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[42:03] Susan Blackwell: I raise a glass.

[42:05] Susan Blackwell: I raise a glass to Ruthie.

[42:07] Laura Camien: To Ruthie.

[42:08] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Suze.

[42:10] Susan Blackwell: My pleasure.

[42:11] Susan Blackwell: All right, I'll go.

[42:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, the person who first jumped into my mind with this prompt is my dear departed friend Ben Wackerman.

[42:21] Susan Blackwell: I met Ben in college at Wright State University.

[42:25] Susan Blackwell: And he was just a deer.

[42:30] Susan Blackwell: He had already lived and worked in New York.

[42:32] Susan Blackwell: He had interned with Tommy Toon.

[42:35] Susan Blackwell: He had worked at a talent agency.

[42:38] Susan Blackwell: He just had he had worked on Grand Hotel, that musical Grand Hotel.

[42:42] Susan Blackwell: And came to Wright State, and he just changed the course of my life.

[42:48] Susan Blackwell: He's one of those people that he really believed in me.

[42:52] Susan Blackwell: For y'all who are listening.

[42:53] Susan Blackwell: He looked like a ginger Herbie the dentist elf from the Christmas special.

[42:59] Susan Blackwell: And he was a very mischievous imp.

[43:02] Susan Blackwell: Very funny.

[43:03] Susan Blackwell: And I learned so much from him.

[43:06] Susan Blackwell: And um I moved to New York in 1995.

[43:09] Susan Blackwell: And about two weeks after I moved to New York, he died of AIDS.

[43:13] Susan Blackwell: So I got to spend some of his last days with him.

[43:18] Susan Blackwell: And his ashes are scattered in front of the theater where Grand Hotel played on Broadway.

[43:26] Susan Blackwell: Which it's now got a new name.

[43:28] Susan Blackwell: It's now the Hirschfeld.

[43:30] Susan Blackwell: We scattered his ashes in front of the Hirschfeld in the there's like um, you know how they plant trees in city sidewalks and there's a uh cut out with dirt.

[43:40] Susan Blackwell: We surreptitiously in broad daylight, and you could get arrested for this, scattered his ashes there.

[43:46] Susan Blackwell: So whenever I pass that theater.

[43:48] Laura Camien: Wow, you rebel you.

[43:50] Laura Camien: How wonderful.

[43:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[43:54] Susan Blackwell: Ben Wackerman.

[43:55] Susan Blackwell: Let's raise a glass to Ben Homer.

[43:57] Laura Camien: Let's raise a glass to Ben Wackerman.

[43:59] Laura Camien: Oh, Ben.

[44:01] Susan Blackwell: So Sizbark, the way Michael Hebb has arranged this book is very cool.

[44:05] Susan Blackwell: Each chapter is one of his suggested conversation prompts.

[44:08] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[44:08] Susan Blackwell: And for me, you mean like at the dinner?

[44:11] Susan Blackwell: This is one of the prompts.

[44:12] Susan Blackwell: For at the dinner, each chapter is a prompt.

[44:15] Laura Camien: Oh, very cool.

[44:17] Susan Blackwell: I think this is very cool.

[44:18] Susan Blackwell: We were talking in our Illum mastermind recently with a group member who's writing a book, and we were discussing what some of our favorite nonfiction books are and how they're structured.

[44:30] Susan Blackwell: So, Kate, if you're listening to this podcast, the way this book is organized is really neat.

[44:35] Susan Blackwell: So, as I said, each chapter title is a prompt for the dinner conversation.

[44:39] Susan Blackwell: And then each chapter is an exploration of that prompt with stories that have come out of the hundreds of thousands of these dinners that Michael Hebb has moderated.

[44:49] Susan Blackwell: It's a really, really cool book structure.

[44:51] Laura Camien: Wow, that's awesome.

[44:53] Susan Blackwell: So anyway, I thought I could just share just like maybe one or two of these prompts with you, Laura, and we could see what comes up for us.

[44:59] Susan Blackwell: And again, you too listener.

[45:02] Susan Blackwell: I actually love this prompt.

[45:05] Susan Blackwell: It is what foods do you remember a departed loved one cooking for you?

[45:11] Laura Camien: Oh does that bring something up for you, Laura?

[45:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:16] Laura Camien: My grandma would always make what I think it's angel food cake, but when I was little, I called it sponge cake.

[45:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:26] Laura Camien: I think there is such a thing as sponge cake, but I was not calling it the right, it wasn't this.

[45:30] Laura Camien: But I called it sponge cake.

[45:32] Laura Camien: It was like a sponge.

[45:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:33] Laura Camien: And everyone, when I was little, got such a kick out of that.

[45:36] Laura Camien: And my grandma took it to mean that I loved Sponge Cake or slash angel food cake.

[45:41] Laura Camien: She would make it every time.

[45:42] Laura Camien: She would be like, I'm making brownies for Scotty.

[45:45] Laura Camien: I'm making sponge cake for Lulu.

[45:48] Laura Camien: And um, but then Susan, the thing was like I didn't really love it that much.

[45:54] Laura Camien: But I would have to have a big old slice of it because she made it for me.

[45:59] Laura Camien: But I would be looking at Scotty's brownies and I'd be like, I really would like a brownie, but no, I'm having the sponge cake slash angel food cake.

[46:10] Susan Blackwell: That is amazing, and it reminds me of a tangent story that I heard one time.

[46:15] Susan Blackwell: I can't remember where I heard this.

[46:17] Susan Blackwell: A woman who somewhere along the line, her mother-in-law got it in her head that this woman loved ducks and kept gifting her all over the years all this duck shit.

[46:31] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[46:32] Susan Blackwell: And she was just stuck it like didn't correct her early.

[46:36] Susan Blackwell: And you were a little kid.

[46:37] Susan Blackwell: So it's like you're just like, I'm gonna eat sponge cake.

[46:40] Laura Camien: I had no idea.

[46:41] Laura Camien: I didn't even have the words, I didn't know.

[46:43] Laura Camien: I just knew that I had to have the sponge cake.

[46:45] Susan Blackwell: That is an amazing story.

[46:47] Susan Blackwell: But I always like the takeaway was like that.

[46:49] Susan Blackwell: I watched my grandma really truly try to make the things that she thought other people liked, which was such a beautiful and wonderful quality.

[46:59] Susan Blackwell: Like it was so sweet of her to be that mindful of like what the meal prep was gonna be was gonna be like what she believed everybody really wanted.

[47:11] Laura Camien: I love that, I love that super super sweet.

[47:15] Laura Camien: Mine is like it's so funny because it's not my memory, it's my father's memory, but it's the thing that jumps to my mind, so I'm gonna go with it.

[47:23] Laura Camien: Yeah, my dad for years, my entire life has talked about how when he was little, when he was sick, his mom would make him coddled eggs.

[47:36] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[47:36] Laura Camien: And I think a coddled egg is I could be wrong about this, but I looked it up once, and I think it is where you boil water, almost like a poached egg, you boil water and you crack the egg, put it in the water, so you pull it out, and it's just like warm and runny, and you could eat it with toast.

[47:54] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[47:55] Laura Camien: And my dad talks about how how much he loved those coddled eggs that his mom would make for him when he was sick, which what I I always translated that into he could really recognize her love in that little meal that he would have when he wasn't feeling well.

[48:13] Susan Blackwell: That is so sweet.

[48:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[48:16] Laura Camien: It's really, really, really sweet.

[48:18] Laura Camien: It's not even mine, it's my dad's, but it's so nice.

[48:22] Laura Camien: And as someone who, you know, I did not really learn to cook.

[48:25] Laura Camien: And part of that was by design, I think, with my mom, because she was very hell-bent that we not this is her skewed view.

[48:32] Laura Camien: I'm not saying this is true, but she did not want us to grow up to like cook and clean for someone else.

[48:40] Laura Camien: Uh just keep in mind her life was, you know, she was pregnant and had her first child at 19.

[48:47] Laura Camien: So and she was uh she was in college to graduate as an art major.

[48:54] Laura Camien: And she relinquished all of that to start, you know, cooking and cleaning and raising babies.

[48:59] Laura Camien: And it was very much a part of like the feminist movement and women trying to be employed and stuff.

[49:05] Laura Camien: So I just keep just for context.

[49:07] Laura Camien: Like she wasn't, she wasn't an asshole.

[49:10] Laura Camien: Um, it would she came by all that naturally, and um, and of course, as I got older, I realized like gosh, it really would be nice to cook if for no one else but myself, like to be able to cook, and it's such a creative act.

[49:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's not something you need to feel resentful of doing for others.

[49:28] Susan Blackwell: You can do it with love.

[49:30] Laura Camien: And I didn't really learn that about I didn't learn that so much until West A.

[49:34] Laura Camien: When we were courting, Wes would courting, please.

[49:39] Laura Camien: Um, ancient.

[49:44] Laura Camien: So sweet.

[49:45] Laura Camien: I love that word.

[49:46] Laura Camien: I know when I had when he was my gentleman caller, um, he would make like uh pork chops, he would make risotto, he would make things, and I'm like, what the heck?

[49:59] Laura Camien: I wouldn't know the first thing about how to make this, and he just did, and I and I that's when I learned, you know, kind of those love languages cooking was yeah, uh cooking for a loved one is one of his love languages.

[50:13] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[50:14] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna hit you with one more prompt.

[50:17] Susan Blackwell: What would you want people to say about you at your funeral?

[50:20] Laura Camien: Oh, geez.

[50:22] Susan Blackwell: What would you want people to say about you at your funeral?

[50:25] Susan Blackwell: I have to say, I love this prompt because I feel like it gives people an opportunity to check in and my art and see if they are creating yes, are they creating a life and conducting themselves in a way that aligns with what they would want people to say about them at a memorial?

[50:42] Laura Camien: I actually I think this is a great prompt.

[50:44] Laura Camien: I think it's an amazing prompt.

[50:47] Laura Camien: I don't think it's necessarily easy to answer, but I think it is amazing.

[50:52] Susan Blackwell: Because it bumps up against a lot of things of like, who do you think you are?

[50:57] Susan Blackwell: Okay, if you were gonna just be bold as if bold and brash as you ask our clients to be, if you were gonna brag on yourself.

[51:04] Laura Camien: I was not saying like it's I'm gonna be able to answer it just fine.

[51:07] Laura Camien: I'm just saying it's not like an easy answer for people.

[51:12] Laura Camien: I just wanted to acknowledge that. Um but for me, so I would say I would love for people to say she laughed a whole lot.

[51:21] Susan Blackwell: Aw.

[51:22] Laura Camien: And she made others laugh.

[51:24] Susan Blackwell: Oh I would love for them to say uh that I cared about other people.

[51:35] Laura Camien: And by learning how this is not something I've always done, but by learning how to live my best life, I inspired others to live their best life.

[51:46] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[51:47] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think I would really want that.

[51:50] Susan Blackwell: That's awesome.

[51:51] Laura Camien: Whoo! How about you, Susie Q?

[51:54] Susan Blackwell: Laura, I I agree with you. I think this is a that's tough, but it for me, I've said this before to you. I kind of don't give that much of a shit about legacy, like leaving behind like a great monument of art.

[52:09] Laura Camien: Right.

[52:09] Susan Blackwell: I care more about strong, healthy, loving human connection.

[52:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[52:17] Susan Blackwell: So my hope is that people would say something along the lines of that they felt loved and they loved in return.

[52:29] Laura Camien: Like because I existed, that that uh exchange occurred. The greatest thing you can ever learn is how to love and be loved in return.

[52:38] Laura Camien: That's what the poets say.

[52:40] Susan Blackwell: So, Suze, by you learning how to love and be loved, you are teaching others how to love and be loved. I think I would also love for people for somebody who just said legacy doesn't, I don't care about it. I think I'd also love, I love the idea of people, because of the work that we have done, which I really like, I really do feel like is like life's work, that they would be able to say, look at all the things that we have created.

[53:11] Laura Camien: That their creativity and self-expression had been freed.

[53:14] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Unlocked and given permission.

[53:17] Laura Camien: That's right. So it's I care less about mine, honestly, than I do about like that other people's lives were bettered and improved by knowing me, I guess.

[53:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[53:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think you're on track.

[53:31] Susan Blackwell: I think you're right on track.

[53:33] Laura Camien: I'll keep working on it.

[53:34] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna keep working on it.

[53:35] Laura Camien: I think you're on track too.

[53:36] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[53:37] Laura Camien: So there are so many good prompts, like so many more than you could ever talk about in a single dinner.

[53:44] Susan Blackwell: But it's fun to get to kind of curate.

[53:47] Laura Camien: So good.

[53:48] Susan Blackwell: Oh, so good. We could probably talk for six hours and then and then drag ourselves off the phone and then tomorrow be like, I'm leaving you this Marco Polo because I've been thinking about it.

[53:58] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[54:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I'll just offer you this. Um, Michael Hebb stresses that how we end the conversation about death is critical, regardless of whether we're at a beautiful table or driving on the interstate.

[54:12] Laura Camien: Oh he says, I end each dinner with admiration for the living, called an appreciation in the round. To initiate the appreciation, someone shares something they appreciate about the person directly on their right or left.

[54:26] Susan Blackwell: And when you are being appreciated, your only job is to receive what is being said. The trick is to take it in, not deflect it, not appreciate them back, just say thank you. And then turn to the person next to you, reach down inside yourself and say something that you truly admire about them.

[54:42] Laura Camien: Cams, may I appreciate you for a moment?

[54:45] Susan Blackwell: Listen, just a few episodes back, I sat and you appreciated me so much.

[54:51] Laura Camien: Do you want to appreciate me?

[54:52] Susan Blackwell: Um, I still want you to appreciate me.

[54:54] Laura Camien: Okay.

[54:55] Susan Blackwell: I'm just kidding. I just want to acknowledge I've I've had a wealth of being appreciated, and I'm grateful for it.

[55:02] Laura Camien: But well, let me give you another spoonful of appreciation.

[55:05] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[55:06] Laura Camien: I appreciate that you were willing to have a conversation that for many people would be very tender or taboo to have it on mic with the knowledge that it's going to be consumed by people that aren't us, not in the privacy of our own home at our own table. But I just want to thank you for being so game and so honest and for going there as you always do.

[55:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh thank you.

[55:34] Laura Camien: Thank you. That's what I'm supposed to say, and I will say it thank you. Now I get to give you some gratitude.

[55:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:53] Laura Camien: Years and years and years ago, I had the opportunity to just learn from you about engaging in difficult conversations and staying present and listening to a person who needed to share difficult feelings. And I just feel like I have learned so much from you, and I'm grateful for it every day.

[56:21] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Laura Camien. I love you.

[56:23] Laura Camien: I love you too.

[56:26] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it?

[56:28] Laura Camien: What do we make of it?

[56:30] Susan Blackwell: Um, here's a few what do we make of it.

[56:32] Laura Camien: Okay.

[56:33] Susan Blackwell: As a moderator, these prompts are just Michael Hebb has really put in the time. They are burnished, they have been tested, they are great conversation prompts, but they're also great writing or journaling prompts.

[56:51] Laura Camien: So if you're a moderator, a teacher, uh, a uh uh dinner host, like these are great prompts.

[56:58] Susan Blackwell: And the flow of the gatherings that Michael Hebb is proposing is giving me Priya Parker's The Art of Gathering so thoughtful.

[57:07] Laura Camien: I was gonna say that earlier.

[57:09] Susan Blackwell: The closure.

[57:10] Laura Camien: Yes, yeah.

[57:11] Susan Blackwell: So good. Um, the writing of this book, what do we make of it? If you're Michael Hebb, you make this book. It is again so well researched. The writing is so lovely. The way it's ordered and structured is a real spark.

[57:26] Laura Camien: A personal what do we make of it is one, I'd really like to host one of these dinners.

[57:31] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[57:32] Laura Camien: So please.

[57:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes, please. You would you like to come to the dinner?

[57:36] Laura Camien: I would.

[57:37] Susan Blackwell: Please come. And two, I think I'm gonna reach back to my dad and see if he'd like to talk through some of these prompts with me, maybe over Zoom so that we don't have to wait until the next time I travel to see him.

[57:50] Laura Camien: I think that's wonderful. I feel like these prompts are gentle and they will give us a great departure point for these questions that I have for him.

[58:02] Susan Blackwell: Like I'm genuinely curious to know, would he say coddled eggs, or would he have a different answer that surprises me?

[58:08] Laura Camien: Oh.

[58:09] Susan Blackwell: And a longer form, what do we make of this? Is I think for myself, I will be sparked by these conversations in so many different ways. I feel like a lot of sparks are going to shake out of these conversations.

[58:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[58:23] Susan Blackwell: Um, cleaning up outstanding issues in relationships, cleaning up my financial and legal affairs, thinking about how I want to spend whatever remaining time I have, what I want to make, who I want to make laugh. Like I so many, so many. What do we make them? It's cleaning up my files.

[58:43] Laura Camien: Cleaning it up so you feel good about whoever has to go through that shit.

[58:47] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[58:48] Laura Camien: I love like all of this.

[58:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh I think it's all so juicy for creative expression, all of it, like you said, starting with thinking about it, talking about it, journaling about it, et cetera, et cetera. And it just like makes me think about characters. I'm always thinking about characters, but things, you know, people who refuse to talk about death even when it is imminent.

[59:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[59:13] Susan Blackwell: People who only talk about death, who are like you get the Adams family, right? You get mortifia. You get like so you push it to the extremes, you know, in all kinds of ways.

[59:24] Laura Camien: And I just think strangely we can we can relate to all of it.

[59:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I feel like I temper myself, not to be a total morticia. I limit myself to one episode of the podcast per season.

[59:36] Laura Camien: I just go ham on talking about death.

[59:40] Susan Blackwell: I do that.

[59:41] Laura Camien: You have really shown some self-restraint, and I'm impressed.

[59:45] Susan Blackwell: I think it's one of the most important things we can talk about.

[59:48] Laura Camien: I really do.

[59:49] Susan Blackwell: I really do too. I I love it, and I'm so grateful. I want to conclude this spark with these words from Michael Hebb. If you don't talk about what you want at the end, then you can be sure that you won't get what you want. Picture what you want your final days to be like. Who is around you? Are you in a hospital? Will there be a funeral? And if so, what music is playing and who is speaking? What happens to your body? How do you want to be remembered? Telling your wishes to your friends and family will give them more than the ability to honor you. It will give them the peace of mind to properly grieve you without the weight of doubt and guilt.

[1:00:29] Laura Camien: If we take ownership over our lives and eventual deaths, we can allow others to be powerfully present to our passing and not let it be lost in the chaos of indecision. If doctors and nurses had clear direction from each of us, advanced care directives, clear power of attorney, healthcare proxy, and if our families know our wishes for the type of care we want at our life's end, if they knew what we want to have happen to our body and how we want to be celebrated, the emotional and financial burden would significantly reduce.

[1:01:03] Susan Blackwell: Please don't mistake my optimism for delusion. I know how hard this terrain is. I know it is not a well-lit path, and yet I believe that every person has the ability to step into these canyons. It is just about how and when, and I hope this book serves as a trail guide.

[1:01:24] Laura Camien: Oh Michael Hebb, friends.

[1:01:26] Susan Blackwell: Well done, Michael Hebb.

[1:01:28] Laura Camien: Michael Hebb.

[1:01:30] Susan Blackwell: So beautiful, this book.

[1:01:32] Laura Camien: So beautiful.

[1:01:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh. What a beautiful, beautiful sentiment. Thank you for that, Michael Hebb.

[1:01:39] Laura Camien: Um that's grateful. I'm getting that book. I'm gonna take it down to Florida when I see my dad.

[1:01:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:01:45] Laura Camien: I'm gonna send that book to my dad. I'm gonna invite him to have these conversations. I'm gonna invite you to a dinner, Laura Camien.

[1:01:51] Susan Blackwell: Maybe we'll have lasagna.

[1:01:53] Laura Camien: It'll be delicious.

[1:01:54] Susan Blackwell: And I think that's it. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope that it put another bunch of sparks in your file. If there is a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, the sparkfile.com.

[1:02:21] Laura Camien: We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

[1:02:25] Susan Blackwell: First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:02:29] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really, really does help other listeners to find us.

[1:02:38] Susan Blackwell: Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love.

[1:02:42] Laura Camien: And if you didn't like it, we hope that you are buried in a silk-lined mahogany coffin with gold detailing.

[1:02:51] Susan Blackwell: What a weird, what a weird curse to put on somebody.

[1:02:55] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:02:56] Susan Blackwell: They're like, that's exactly what I want.

[1:02:57] Laura Camien: That's what I wanted.

[1:03:00] Susan Blackwell: Hey, if something lights you up and gets your creative sparks playing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door. It's your turn to please take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:03:17] Laura Camien: You know you gotta take it and make it and talk about death over dinner.

[1:03:17] Susan Blackwell: Talk about death over dinner.

[1:03:27] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark fire.

[1:03:36] Susan Blackwell: Spark fire could be something that I wanna take or how I wanna be.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: I pump it in the spark file.

[1:03:47] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark file.

[1:03:50] Laura Camien: Spark flies.

[1:03:51] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark fire.