This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] The Sparks File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Please use your discretion.

[0:11] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark, be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my sparks. I jump into my sparks. Let's open up the sparks.

[0:38] Laura Camien: Can I tell you something that I have not stopped thinking about since the last time we spoke?

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[0:47] Laura Camien: Yes, I did. And you know the piece about um right hand on the jug, move the foot to the watch out for the boulder problem.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[0:57] Laura Camien: I was like, somebody should option that and write a musical. Somebody should option that and write a musical and this vision. If you had a really really good inventive director who maybe the um the wall just the whole set is just a wall of that like LED where you can do big images, and the guy playing the climber could almost stay still and the images could use.

[1:29] Susan Blackwell: And I imagined a song where that whole like maybe it's called the Boulder Problem.

[1:36] Laura Camien: Yeah, where he um, you know, those that sort of like right hand check da-da-da-da-da.

[1:41] Susan Blackwell: I am so into this. I could I I'm not the person to write this, but I hope somebody is the person to write this because I was like the that's a big I want, and it's a big man versus nature.

[1:53] Laura Camien: It is but and and but yes, and but um I don't think I spend a lot of time on it in the Sparks, but in the movie, if you were to option it, there's also this relationship story going on, and I know we touched on it a little bit, but like what are you entitled to when you fall in love with someone who has a dream that puts them in danger?

[2:18] Susan Blackwell: And like there's a whole B plot in there about this love, and if he really loves her, would he still climb that mountain?

[2:28] Laura Camien: I mean, you got a lot going on. I feel like with a really inventive um director and a real sorry, a really directive really um what's the word inspired authors? You could make something really fucking cool out of that.

[2:44] Susan Blackwell: Laura, you know why I love that you said that because it is truly like why we want to do this podcast. That idea right there, that's free for the taking.

[2:52] Laura Camien: Yeah, I don't think either doing it.

[2:54] Susan Blackwell: Susan and I are not opposed to doing it.

[2:56] Laura Camien: Free solo, but someone could.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh, hey, oh, sorry. Hi, welcome to the Sparks.

[3:03] Laura Camien: We're just talking, we're just chatting.

[3:06] Susan Blackwell: We have to tell you. Um, this is the Sparks File. This is your one-stop shop for creative inspiration.

[3:12] Laura Camien: That's right. I'm Laura Camien and I'm Susan Blackwell. We're makers who make all kinds of things. And if you're like us and you're making lots of stuff all the time, you know that sometimes the fish pond of inspiration can get a little tapped out.

[3:24] Susan Blackwell: So baby Cam's and I are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, inspiration that sparks our creativity and piques our curiosity, things that inspire us to get off our asses and make things like this podcast.

[3:34] Laura Camien: Uh yes, or um uh or uh uh a documentary film.

[3:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh, that's right. Or a musical based on that documentary film.

[3:45] Laura Camien: So every episode we're gonna reach into that spark file, we're gonna exchange some sparks, then we're gonna maybe talk to some folks who spark us too.

[3:52] Susan Blackwell: If you're not careful, you might just get your fish pond restocked.

[3:55] Laura Camien: That's right. Get your block rock and your fish pond restocked.

[3:58] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up that spark file.

[4:01] Laura Camien: Let's spark it up. Um you know the drill, you know how it works. Every episode, um, I bring a fresh spark to baby cam cams.

[4:10] Susan Blackwell: She surprises me with a fresh spark that she's brought to me.

[4:14] Laura Camien: Um, an exchange of ideas, a meeting of minds. And they're all free for the taking.

[4:20] Susan Blackwell: We'll say it again. I mean, you know, you have to deal with the legal ram of kids.

[4:24] Laura Camien: That's right. If they're not ours, we can't really give them away.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: But anything that we said, babies. Um do you who wants to go first?

[4:32] Laura Camien: I'll go first.

[4:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[4:35] Laura Camien: I get nervous because I'm just gonna sit back and take it.

[4:37] Susan Blackwell: Normally I go first.

[4:38] Laura Camien: I mean, normally you go first, and I like kind of get lost in your spark, and then it comes in time.

[4:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and I'm like just with you hanging out, and then you're like, are you ready to go?

[4:49] Laura Camien: I'm like, oh shit. Wait, I have to go.

[4:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh, wait, me? What?

[4:53] Laura Camien: Um, but today that all changes right now.

[4:56] Susan Blackwell: This is my I have to tell you how much I look forward to this because it's like it's like getting a story sprung on you.

[5:05] Laura Camien: I love it.

[5:06] Susan Blackwell: Well, girl, I hope you love this.

[5:09] Laura Camien: I just realized I forgot to come up with a clever little name. You know, I like my little Nancy Drew mystery names.

[5:15] Susan Blackwell: I don't have one hate.

[5:16] Laura Camien: The dilapidated organ driver.

[5:19] Susan Blackwell: Can that be it?

[5:21] Laura Camien: I don't think that's a match for this one, but um, but uh yeah, we'll come up with something in the process of talking about it.

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: Great. We'll go back and give it a title.

[5:30] Laura Camien: Yes. We're working in real time.

[5:33] Laura Camien: But this week, my spark is a word.

[5:33] Susan Blackwell: A word?

[5:38] Laura Camien: Now it became, I think, a buzzword like a few years back. So you know, people might like eye roll, you might eye roll and be like, yeah.

[5:46] Susan Blackwell: But I don't know where I was a few years back because I didn't hear it.

[5:50] Laura Camien: The word is mokita.

[5:52] Susan Blackwell: Girl.

[5:53] Laura Camien: Mokita. Do you know what this word is?

[5:55] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[5:56] Laura Camien: So everybody can eye roll right. Mokita.

[5:58] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:59] Laura Camien: It's a fruit fruit drink that you get when you're on vacation.

[6:02] Susan Blackwell: I'm kidding.

[6:02] Laura Camien: It's not.

[6:03] Susan Blackwell: I was like, that's a moquito.

[6:04] Laura Camien: I know.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: But you're saying Mokita.

[6:07] Laura Camien: Mokita. Could you spell it?

[6:08] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna spell it.

[6:09] Laura Camien: Could you use it as first?

[6:12] Susan Blackwell: It's origin, please. M-O-K I T A.

[6:17] Laura Camien: Just like it's my spelling B voice.

[6:20] Susan Blackwell: It's not a city in Indiana.

[6:22] Laura Camien: It's not a small town.

[6:23] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[6:24] Laura Camien: So Mokita is a word from a language that's spoken in Papua New Guinea.

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[6:33] Laura Camien: The meaning of the word is the truth we all know, but agree not to talk about.

[6:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh girl.

[6:41] Laura Camien: Let that sink in.

[6:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm writing it down.

[6:44] Laura Camien: I'm writing it down.

[6:46] Laura Camien: It's the truth we all know.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: But we agreed not to talk about it.

[6:50] Laura Camien: Okay.

[6:50] Susan Blackwell: Jesus.

[6:51] Laura Camien: Sometimes, you know, sometimes in different cultures, there's different phrases like uh the elephant in the room, that kind of thing.

[7:01] Susan Blackwell: And it could be that simple that you can all literally see it, but no one's gonna talk about it.

[7:09] Laura Camien: Um but you know, like as a writer, these things fascinate me. Like when I see them used to great effect in plays or um or in real life, honestly, like I can like watch a watch a thing go down and just be like really and I was that kid, I don't know about you when I was younger, like I was that kid who if I could sense something was happening in the room, like if I could walk in and like my parents were obviously fighting, or like mom and dad are fighting.

[7:36] Susan Blackwell: No, they're not shut up, shut up.

[7:38] Laura Camien: I'd be like, No, I they're like obviously they're fighting, something's wrong, everyone's fighting.

[7:43] Susan Blackwell: And it literally would be like, shut up. We are not talking about it.

[7:49] Laura Camien: Are you saying that you would be take that position?

[7:52] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[7:52] Laura Camien: I mean, because I just was I think a sensitive being that could sense things, sensitive, and we love her for it.

[8:01] Susan Blackwell: You are you could hear my tears on this podcast.

[8:05] Laura Camien: I'd love it about you.

[8:07] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. I've I've learned to love it because I've I it can't be changed, so I've embraced it.

[8:13] Laura Camien: Here come the water works or Wes.

[8:16] Susan Blackwell: I'll be like, babe, I'm crying right now, but I'm fine. Let's just talk through this.

[8:20] Laura Camien: These tears are just it's just water.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: It doesn't scare me.

[8:24] Laura Camien: Does not scare me.

[8:25] Susan Blackwell: I love that about you.

[8:26] Laura Camien: Um, but I was that kid, and I was I was like the middle child, and I think my sister learned really early like what to talk about, what not to talk about.

[8:35] Susan Blackwell: She just she learned a different uh coping mechanism.

[8:38] Laura Camien: Yep, yep, yep.

[8:39] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, mm-mm, we're we're telling the truth, we're getting it all out.

[8:43] Laura Camien: So you were a this is what's happening.

[8:46] Susan Blackwell: We're we're telling the truth about it and we're observing it.

[8:49] Laura Camien: Oh, if I observed it, yeah.

[8:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you then I weren't.

[8:52] Laura Camien: I thought I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you were the one that was like, We shan't speak of it.

[8:56] Susan Blackwell: Oh no, no, no.

[8:57] Laura Camien: Oh no, no, no. You were like, No, we shall record it and put it into a play in twenty years.

[9:03] Susan Blackwell: We will talk about it sooner or later.

[9:06] Laura Camien: Maybe later.

[9:07] Susan Blackwell: But she's like, I'll put them on. I'll put them on a satchel for later.

[9:11] Laura Camien: It's so true.

[9:11] Susan Blackwell: But like um, just really, really general examples, and we'll get more in detail.

[9:16] Laura Camien: But like um, if you had a a party, like someone's um sweet 16 and their parents are divorced.

[9:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and everyone is aware of like divorced parents, mom's in that corner, dad's in that corner, but we're not gonna talk about it.

[9:32] Laura Camien: But we we all have an awareness of it.

[9:34] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[9:35] Laura Camien: Um, and we all know the truth. They're not speaking to each other. He brought his hussy girlfriend and mom's mad. You know, like we just all know these things, we don't speak of it.

[9:45] Susan Blackwell: Um, but it could also be like, and I want to get into this later, but it could be claims, this this is more painful to me when I see things or when I experience things like this.

[9:57] Laura Camien: Like, um, if someone has says, um, I'm gonna quit drinking, or I'm I'm gonna lose 20 pounds.

[10:07] Susan Blackwell: And you can almost sense sometimes this collective we all know the truth about that.

[10:15] Laura Camien: You're not going to stop drinking, but we're not going to say anything. Those are more painful moments for me.

[10:21] Susan Blackwell: And I on film or in a show, you know, like the those moments are juicy.

[10:26] Laura Camien: I think there's a lot. There's a lot there.

[10:27] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[10:28] Laura Camien: So here's some other examples.

[10:31] Laura Camien: Um, in the office.

[10:33] Susan Blackwell: There are times when like an older person who's closer to retirement, perhaps maybe they're losing their edge a little bit, their memory, they're making some mistakes, but their beloved.

[10:46] Laura Camien: Yes.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: And so others fix it for them, cover up for them.

[10:52] Laura Camien: They don't mention it.

[10:54] Susan Blackwell: Um this is a fun fact.

[10:56] Laura Camien: Warren Buffett actually put systems in place in his company to make sure that that doesn't happen to him.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: So kidding.

[11:04] Laura Camien: Yeah, he has like this that he calls it take the keys away because he doesn't want the company that he built.

[11:04] Susan Blackwell: Take the keys away.

[11:13] Laura Camien: Take the keys away.

[11:14] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[11:15] Laura Camien: He doesn't want the company that he built to go down the drain just because no one will say no to hand up to him and then.

[11:21] Susan Blackwell: Grandpa, grams. It's time to go.

[11:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[11:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:25] Laura Camien: I thought that was interesting, but I thought that was also like a really sweet version of it.

[11:30] Susan Blackwell: Like we all know this, but we're, you know, he's a year away from retirement. We're gonna let that slide.

[11:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: That's sweet.

[11:37] Laura Camien: I haven't experienced a lot of workplaces where people are but it also may be like uh I don't know.

[11:45] Laura Camien: Like if if you have a like say your grandparent or your parent is failing, and we're all we're but we're not talking about it yet.

[11:45] Susan Blackwell: We're not talking about the fact that our brain is changing or you know what?

[11:58] Laura Camien: That's right.

[11:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's right.

[12:01] Laura Camien: Um, and then of course, like the budgets, that's another example in the in the office place, um, where you're just working with a false belief.

[12:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, that nothing is real.

[12:14] Laura Camien: And in a really sad, just a another sad example, it might be like the values of the company where everyone's like, Well, we all know that's what we say our values are.

[12:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[12:25] Laura Camien: But that is not how it plays out.

[12:26] Susan Blackwell: We all know that's pretty common, actually.

[12:29] Laura Camien: I know.

[12:30] Susan Blackwell: And so in Papua New Guinea, yeah, they actually like this is a really like even just the concept of Mokita is is uh is something that you might even just talk about or encounter in a daily in a daily way.

[12:45] Laura Camien: They actually judge the health of a community by the number of moquitas it has.

[12:50] Susan Blackwell: So more moquitas, less healthy, right?

[12:55] Laura Camien: So God, this is true for relationships, too.

[13:00] Susan Blackwell: And so there, I read up on um there's that is so true, Susan. I'm sorry I didn't mean to skim over that.

[13:06] Laura Camien: That's so true for relationships.

[13:09] Susan Blackwell: I also I also careful because you may get hit that right later.

[13:12] Laura Camien: But if I don't let's come back to that because I wanted to say like in terms of leadership, this concept of like speak the Mokita.

[13:21] Susan Blackwell: Speak the Mokita is a concept.

[13:23] Laura Camien: So where you know, fearless leaders.

[13:26] Susan Blackwell: Um, I've heard I read some stories like Cheryl Sandberg was like this, like was like that, fearlessly.

[13:35] Laura Camien: I mean, maybe there was some fear there, but nonetheless, speak the Mokita so that we can get it out speak it constructively, speak it honestly.

[13:44] Susan Blackwell: She's still PS.

[13:45] Laura Camien: I don't know what I'm talking about, but is I I feel like that may have would you characterize her like that now?

[13:52] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[13:53] Laura Camien: I don't know. I have not kept up, but I read about um this woman named Kim Scott who's credited for this concept called radical candor.

[14:02] Susan Blackwell: Oh have you heard about that?

[14:04] Laura Camien: I have.

[14:04] Susan Blackwell: I've also I've heard it called radical honesty.

[14:07] Laura Camien: Yeah, yes, I do know that.

[14:09] Susan Blackwell: So she's just talking about this.

[14:24] Susan Blackwell: And this older actor, uh, you know, I introduced myself, and um they were like, Oh yeah, like we were just sort of like, I was like, I know you because I admired your work in Bah.

[14:36] Laura Camien: And they were like, Oh yeah, no, how do how would I know you?

[14:38] Susan Blackwell: And I was uh this you know, said a little bit about what I had made and done, and they were like, Oh, I I saw that, I didn't like that.

[14:46] Now this is something I made, like what she was talking about title of show.

[14:51] She goes, uh I saw that, I didn't like that.

[14:55] Huh.

[14:55] And then I was like, Yeah, that's I was like, I I part of me was like, I don't give a fuck what this lady thinks, but I was also like, ugh, like to tell wow a maker.

[15:08] I I was just like I didn't ask.

[15:10] Also, I didn't ask.

[15:11] She was all about that.

[15:12] She was all about like this radical candor.

[15:14] And then she goes, she goes, I saw that, I didn't like that.

[15:17] And I was like, Oh yeah, we also did this other show called Now Her This.

[15:20] And she goes, now what was that?

[15:22] She goes, Oh no, no, no.

[15:25] I I liked that one.

[15:26] I didn't like that one.

[15:28] Like, she I was like, Oh, you are just a fucking fire hose of radical honesty.

[15:33] Um I sort of didn't give a shit.

[15:37] Uh miraculously it didn't hurt my feelings because I was just like, You're a little.

[15:42] It's part of me really aspires to this, yeah, really aspires to it.

[15:46] I don't think I'll get there in this lifetime.

[15:48] Uh but it's it's simultaneously like when I see people exercise this radical candor, and I've been with you know, a handful of people that do this.

[15:59] Part of me is like, wow, that is really strong.

[16:04] It's it is an incredible position of strength.

[16:07] Yeah.

[16:07] And then part of me is like, you're a fucking dick.

[16:11] And there's certain things around.

[16:14] I'm like, is that your opinion that you're being radically candid with?

[16:19] Like that woman being like, I didn't like that.

[16:21] Oh no, I'm sorry.

[16:22] I didn't like the other thing you made.

[16:24] Right.

[16:24] I was just like, I didn't ask you.

[16:27] And very easily that person become can become a vampire.

[16:31] Absolutely.

[16:32] And stop you from being creatively self-expressed and free.

[16:35] I think it has to do with was that was your opinion invited, sought after.

[16:41] If not, your radical candor is for you.

[16:45] It's not for the other person.

[16:46] And I think that it can be just as destructive as it can be constructive.

[16:53] I think it's really mixed bag.

[16:55] It has to be carefully done.

[16:57] I'm fascinated by this topic.

[17:00] Well, did we already talk about the the phrase it's not for me?

[17:04] Laura Camien: We talked it, we talk about it.

[17:05] Uh Amy in Amy Puller's book, Good for You, Not For Me.

[17:05] Susan Blackwell: Good for you, not for me.

[17:09] That's right.

[17:09] Good for you, not for me.

[17:10] Um, or just simply like, it wasn't for me.

[17:12] I've had people say that I saw that show of yours.

[17:14] It was really interesting.

[17:15] It's not for me.

[17:16] Pete, we also talked about it in when Pete Holmes uh was talking to John Mulaney and said uh talking about his failed TV show Mulaney, and he said, It wasn't for me.

[17:24] It's not for me.

[17:25] But he was he didn't act like now that was a good example of Mokita.

[17:31] That was a great example where John Mulaney would walk into a room, yeah, and everybody would they talk to him, but nobody was saying the thing.

[17:31] The thing.

[17:41] Yeah, nobody was saying it.

[17:43] Mokita.

[17:45] Mokita.

[17:46] Mokita girl.

[17:48] Um, so there's this new, like I said, like in leadership and in sort of the business area, speak the Mokita, which I think is an interesting um concept, even in terms of like our relationships, our personal interpersonal relationships, and being like, you know, this is gonna be my objective, is to be honest.

[18:06] But um, but I was thinking in terms of the spark that you know it may not be great to have to like live in a in your culture, your work culture or your friend culture, where there's a lot of Mokitas, they sure are good for storytelling.

[18:24] They really, really are so good.

[18:27] So I think that um like sometimes it can be like you see in like war movies, yeah, like the concept of hope.

[18:38] Like, I hope we make it out of here alive.

[18:41] Yeah, and meanwhile, the truth that they're not speaking is like they're all coming up making it, yeah.

[18:47] Yeah, we're fucked.

[18:49] Um so there you see that, and then of course, family dynamics are fraught with it, you know, just concept of like we all know Tom married below his status, we all know that.

[19:01] Yeah, you know, we all know Barb is cheating on her husband, yeah.

[19:05] We all know our nephew attempted suicide, yes, little dark.

[19:09] Um, but it can be comedic, it can be dramatic.

[19:13] It's just juicy in a way, you know, it it makes for good storytelling, I think.

[19:20] Um, but then it's funny that you mentioned the um John Mulaney thing because then I started thinking about Mokita in terms of like I mentioned before, what if you're like when you're on the receiving end of not necessarily a truth that everyone knows, but it's a perception that everyone has agreed upon that maybe they're behaving as though it's true.

[19:40] Okay, like that, like everyone saw your show, it sucked, yeah, and no one's saying anything.

[19:49] Or, you know, you declare you're gonna lose weight, and and you see the shuffling eyes, and like no one actually believes you're gonna lose weight.

[19:58] Or frankly, in our case of being an artist, how many people have been like, I want to be a writer, I'm gonna be an actor.

[20:06] And there is kind of an unspoken, like we all know you're not going to make a living as an artist.

[20:15] No one's saying it, but you can perceive it.

[20:19] And I think that's fucking frustrating because you're in this position, like you were saying, like with John Mulaney, you want to find someone and be like, Am I am I crazy?

[20:29] Because I'm sensing that people are acting like I'm crazy because I have a dream or because I have a vision or because I have a a hope for my life.

[20:38] And in that case, I think that's fucking bullshit because that's not a truth that they know.

[20:44] That's a story they've told themselves that they're all agreeing upon.

[20:49] And they're acting because they feel better, acting as though that's the truth.

[20:53] And they've all they're all not gonna speak of it.

[20:57] So I don't know.

[20:58] I I really like I've had moments like that in my life, and it's really hurtful, or when you're with a friend, like someone you deeply love, and you say something, I'm so excited.

[21:09] This is gonna be a huge hit.

[21:12] Crickets.

[21:13] Yeah.

[21:13] And you're like, What?

[21:15] What is the thing?

[21:17] What's the thing you're not saying?

[21:19] Um so in that case, I think like Mokitas can really suck because they're not necessarily the truth.

[21:26] Yeah, but you're there's a difference between like we all know Barb's husband is having an affair.

[21:32] That's right, and he's been sleeping with his secretary.

[21:34] Does that have secretary?

[21:36] He's been sleeping with his male executive assistant for 10 years.

[21:40] Uh that's can just be a fact, but you're talking about people solidifying perceptions into you know that's right, because we think of them as fact, and I I think that um that can be just as painful, yeah.

[21:56] And um, and yeah, I just uh obviously it got me thinking I love very way, very you know, various ways that it creeps into our life, and you just wonder like how many Mokitas does my relationship have?

[22:10] Laura Camien: Okay, can I just ask you because I've never heard this word until this moment, um, I've never heard this term or even the phrase speak the Mokita.

[22:19] Are there like corporate workshops happening right now somewhere in the world where it's like this is a speak the Mokita workshop, or there's is there like at home goods right now?

[22:28] Is there already like a pre-printed live laugh love banner that says speak the Mokita?

[22:33] Susan Blackwell: No, but I'm working on it.

[22:34] How ubiquitous, like how how no very actually.

[22:38] I think that a few years ago, the reason I said I think it might have been a buzzword a few years ago is because I think there was a book that talked about Mokitas a few years ago.

[22:46] Okay, okay, okay.

[22:47] But then in terms of like speak the Mokita, I found that in one place, you know, as I was doing my digging, my deep dive into Mokitas.

[22:58] Um, I only found it in one place.

[23:00] Really?

[23:01] Yeah.

[23:01] And I and I I found other places where they were talking about that concept of speaking honestly, and that led to the radical candor, all of that stuff.

[23:11] Um, but only one person said speak the Mokita.

[23:15] And I thought that's a phrase that needs to be in my life.

[23:19] It's an interesting, it's an interesting concept and that radical candor concept.

[23:24] I also know somebody, uh, just an acquaintance, somebody I don't know well, who was like the a year of radical honesty.

[23:34] And for one year, um, probably more, uh, it probably continued on.

[23:42] But the I she may have written a book about it.

[23:46] You know, everywhere she went, um little things, big things, like um, just let me know if it's too cold in here.

[23:46] It's too cold in here, like that sort of, which I feel like I am too polite and Midwestern, right?

[24:01] And I could stand to have a shot glass full of that, yeah just injected into my veins.

[24:08] But yeah I'm interested in it, but I've never I have a passing interest in it, but I've never taken the time to really be like, I'm gonna commit to this for 24 hours or 48 hours or a week.

[24:20] But I think like it's so difficult because I think even the people who ask for it aren't entirely sure they want it, or it's not clear that they really want it.

[24:33] I don't know that it's tell me this.

[24:36] You've never like have you ever had a conversation with people like, I don't know what I want for lunch?

[24:40] Does anybody know?

[24:40] No, everyone, and we all play a game of like, I don't care, whatever you want, I don't care whatever you want.

[24:45] And then someone chooses it.

[24:47] Have you ever Pizza Hut?

[24:49] They say.

[24:50] I can't believe like, so she demanded to have pizza for lunch.

[24:53] Got it.

[24:53] But like, but you you said, like, if you if you have if you have a crazy thing, I'm interested in uh it's funny.

[25:00] Uh there is part of me that's like I'm uh it appeals to me very much.

[25:05] And then there's because I I do think it is badass.

[25:10] Absolutely.

[25:11] And I also think it sounds like an enormous pain in the ass because that's you've gotta if you're gonna, you know, I love the IS I love the idea of aspiring to it.

[25:24] Because if you can be like a person like where your word is bond like that, and it's sort of like, well, she can, but I don't like because she can be kind of a dick, but you do know where you stand with her.

[25:35] Um, I don't know.

[25:37] I I like I don't even think really about it like as someone being a dick.

[25:42] I just think um I think there might be an art form to using radical candor when it's helpful, when it's useful.

[25:51] Yeah, and then other times where it's not worth wasting your time, it's not worth like opening up a can of worms with someone who you're like actually not interested in negotiating the temperature in the room with.

[26:03] Like it's not maybe it's just not worth that.

[26:06] Susan Blackwell: I need more of this in my life.

[26:07] I think I need more of it in my life.

[26:09] Just radical candor.

[26:10] Yeah, maybe, but la pro let's be honest.

[26:13] We're gonna finish recording this podcast, and I'm not gonna do anything about it.

[26:17] I'm gonna be on it.

[26:18] I will, I will speak the truth.

[26:19] Yeah.

[26:20] Come on.

[26:20] We're never gonna speak of it again.

[26:23] You're gonna be so full of shit.

[26:25] Laura Camien: I think you're actually a really, really honest person already, quite naturally.

[26:29] I don't know.

[26:30] I think you might not realize how I don't know.

[26:33] Well, I'll say this.

[26:34] You're someone who I trust until now, anyway.

[26:38] I trust that when you tell me something, you're telling me I'm not just a giant bag of Makitas.

[26:43] Yeah.

[26:43] So I I'm like, oh, Susan would tell me.

[26:43] Susan would tell me if this was a problem.

[26:48] Define it one more time for me.

[26:49] Susan Blackwell: I want to hear the truth we all know, but agree not to speak about.

[26:49] Truth we all know, but agree not to speak about.

[26:57] Mokita speak the Mokita.

[27:00] The elephant in the room.

[27:01] That is badass.

[27:03] Let's say someone walks in and they have had a really unfortunate plastic surgery uh situation.

[27:12] Uh-huh.

[27:13] There's no not noticing it.

[27:15] Everyone in the room is aware.

[27:18] And no one's going to say anything.

[27:21] Um, maybe someone comes out of the bathroom with, you know, toilet paper hanging out of their pants.

[27:27] Maybe someone will say something, or maybe everyone will giggle and be like, I think it really depends for me.

[27:32] It really depends on the circumstance.

[27:33] I'm like really trying this on, and it just really depends on the circumstance.

[27:37] And uh whether what were you gonna say?

[27:42] Laura Camien: I was gonna say though, this is different from I know we talked about radical candor in relationship to it because my my research on it led me to the woman who is is um credited with radical candor.

[27:57] Right.

[27:58] But that's not the same as Mokita.

[28:00] It's not they're not advocating, you know, you have to say everything.

[28:03] Got it, got it.

[28:03] Got it, gotta get it.

[28:04] Did you ever see Secrets and Lies?

[28:05] That Mike Lee movie.

[28:06] Do you remember that movie?

[28:07] It was a very celebrated feature.

[28:09] We're like, you know, there's all these secrets and lies.

[28:14] That's the title.

[28:15] But it's um, you know, like at by the end, it's sort of like the guy has the one of the characters is just like enough, like you know, and it all like it all comes out.

[28:25] But to your point about the way that it can live in literature in you know, screenplays and plays, and you know, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[28:33] It's good stuff.

[28:34] It's good stuff.

[28:35] Susan Blackwell: I mean, you should obviously good storytellers use it because that was a big thing for years, you know, for years like in TV and mov TV, especially, like everybody had to have a secret.

[28:35] Laura Camien: That's right.

[28:35] Susan Blackwell: Everybody had to have a secret. That's why a show like Ozark was so exciting because it was the flip of that where the minute you were like, he's got so many secrets building up, he just says ex he speaks the Mokita over and over and over again.

[28:58] Laura Camien: And then it's written in such a fun way where I know Jason Bateman was one of my first crushes.

[29:05] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[29:06] Laura Camien: Yeah, he was on a show called It's Your Move. He was a child actor, and was he, and I believe Ernie Sabello played the like the janitor, the custodian in his building.

[29:15] Susan Blackwell: And they were like sort of like frenemy adversaries, and he was uh from the time he was a child, I was like, You are so fucking hot.

[29:24] Laura Camien: Wow, Jason Bateman. If you're listening, and I'm sure you're not I know you're very happily married to your lovely wife, which is just makes you even more fabulous.

[29:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, it's so wonderful. My Nathan, who I also love very much. My name was uh my Nathan was at an event, he was filming an event a while back for a movie that Jason Bateman, I think, directed and maybe starred in. And he talked about how he's one of those people that he can get like a like t a two page monologue like that morning, ba ba ba ba ba. He and have it memorized just like that and walk him a set. And I heard that and it made me want to punch him in his beautiful face.

[30:06] Laura Camien: I wish you loved it.

[30:07] Susan Blackwell: But I love him. I think he's so talented. So talented.

[30:11] Laura Camien: But you're totally right about that show. And that is like he speaks the Mokita.

[30:15] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Every time you think like, oh, this is gonna be the secret that we're gonna do. He's in a scrape and he's never gonna get out of the scrape because of the secret.

[30:23] Laura Camien: Yeah, just the next scene is like Did you watch the second season of that?

[30:26] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[30:27] Laura Camien: Oh, I haven't seen it all. Does he speak the Mokita? Does it do they continue to make it?

[30:30] Susan Blackwell: They continue. Absolutely. I loved it. I love the way they turned that form on its head. I loved that. Did I tell you that um our dear friend John Ort won like the big casting award for Ozark?

[30:41] Laura Camien: Congratulations and well done, John Ort.

[30:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure you are not the same. I'm sure you're not listening. But if you are you know what? You just gotta shout out impressive work. Well done, speak the Mokita. Anything else to know about that?

[30:54] Laura Camien: That should have like that could have been my title, I guess. In retro, so there you go. Speaking of we're gonna be selling the Mokita. We're gonna be selling beautiful canvas prints in the lobby. Do you need a break? Can we roll on?

[31:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm ready to roll.

[31:08] Laura Camien: Let's roll on. I pee before we started and I don't have to pee yet. Um My Spark, I have been so excited to share this.

[31:20] Susan Blackwell: You have goddamn not been able to contain this spark. Because I want to talk to you about it and I wanna share it with you. I'm settling in. This is the core of the spark.

[31:26] Laura Camien: Okay.

[31:30] Susan Blackwell: The title of the spark, the theme song of My Spark. It is the sweet, simple things of life, which are the real ones after all.

[31:34] Laura Camien: Oh.

[31:34] Susan Blackwell: It is the sweet, simple things of life, which are the real ones after all. That's a quote from our home girl, Laura Ingalls Wilder.

[31:50] Laura Camien: Oh yes.

[31:51] Susan Blackwell: Yes, girl. So most of us have heard of Laura Ingalls Wilder. She's the author of the Little House series that's Little House on the Prairie, Little House in the Big Woods, The Long Winter, On and On and On. Those books were the original spark for my spark today. Um, because those books have uh restocked my fish pond.

[32:05] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[32:11] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. I did not read the books as a child. Did you read the books as a child?

[32:15] Laura Camien: I did.

[32:16] Susan Blackwell: You did.

[32:16] Laura Camien: I did.

[32:17] Susan Blackwell: Oh, really? I think after seeing the show, though, I mean, of course.

[32:22] Laura Camien: Oh, you saw the TV show.

[32:23] Susan Blackwell: Fell in love with the show. And then like could not get enough, so went back and read the books. So it was like seeing the Harry Potter movies and then going back and reading the original.

[32:31] Laura Camien: That's right.

[32:32] Susan Blackwell: Source material.

[32:32] Laura Camien: That's right. Somehow I grew up, um, sorry, I hit my mic. I grew up in I grew up uh in rural rural on the prairie, and somehow I missed those books. I was growing up in Kansas, okay.

[32:46] Susan Blackwell: If you think for a second that I didn't think those books were about me. Like I am Laura Ingalls Wilder. Um, I missed those books, and then I lived in New York City for decades, and that was when I started reading those books.

[32:59] Laura Camien: Are you kidding?

[33:00] Susan Blackwell: No girl, they were like a little staycation when the city was just wearing me out. Those books were like a fresh fucking breeze. They were very restorative to me.

[33:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:10] Susan Blackwell: The writing is for me what I think of as the very best of what I call penny words, which is um it's the when you you could if you could use a big long SAT word, or you could use a a penny word, a nickel, a dime word, like a word that's one or two syllables, yeah, very simple language. Opt for the penny word.

[33:32] Laura Camien: Yes.

[33:32] Susan Blackwell: Um so those books are the best of penny words to me. It's all about the sweet, simple things in life the sun and the wind on the prairie grass and calico and long days of hard work, and then Pa playing the fiddle at night. Um here's a pro tip. Cherry Jones, the great actress Cherry Jones, who also plays the president on everything on every TV show. Cherry Jones reads the audiobooks, and she is Are you kidding?

[34:00] Laura Camien: Oh, it is holy moly perfect because she grew up somewhere down south.

[34:06] Susan Blackwell: It's an A, Arkansas, Alabama. I don't remember where she's from.

[34:09] Laura Camien: Yeah, and she oh my god, she's so uh charming, she's so good. Look into it if you uh staycation.

[34:17] Susan Blackwell: I do. It's so good. Um so I really wanted to share the spark because this really has been something that has yes, I came to it as an adult, but it's been something that has really um been refreshing to me. And then I started digging, and then I realized this spark is so much sparkier than I've ever imagined. So much of the spark I'm gonna share with you was handed to me by an amazing person named Christopher Chaika, who is awesome. And he is passionate about this subject matter.

[34:43] Laura Camien: Yep.

[34:47] Susan Blackwell: The bulk of this, what I'm about to share with you comes directly from him. And he's been super sparked by this subject matter since second grade. And I actually I didn't want to tell you till now, but I would like to have him as a guest on this podcast because his passion for this is specific and it is sparkish.

[35:06] Laura Camien: Okay.

[35:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's really I find it really fun and really inspiring.

[35:09] Laura Camien: Oh, in addition to Christopher Chaika. Hi Grands Lover, other sources um include an article by Chuck Mallory on Medium.com and an article in The New Yorker by Judith Thurman. Trigger warning. Okay. If you love Little House and Laura Ingalls Wilder, this may be if you if you stumbled onto our podcast because you searched for podcast with Laura Ingalls Wilder in the description. This may be a very controversial episode for you.

[35:34] Laura Camien: Oh and if you are listening with young children or diehard bonnet heads, you may want to earmuffs.

[35:43] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah. So here we go. Laura Ingalls Wilder was a real person who lived from 1867 to 1957. And she lived all over the Midwest with her family. 2017 was the 150th anniversary of her birth. So there was a real surge in like coverage and interest in her. And there are several layers of who she is in the popular consciousness. She is represented as a fictional character in the Little House books, and they were written as autobiographical novels.

[36:17] Laura Camien: She was a TV show character on the NBC TV show played by Melissa Gilbert.

[36:24] Susan Blackwell: Um Melissa Gilbert doesn't really look like Laura Ingalls at all. And the show, Chris Cheka said this, and I was like, no, it's true. The show is really more about the 1970s and 1980s than it is about the 1870s and the 1880s. And if you go back and look at it, you're like, yeah, it kind of makes sense. Like the like the messages, the subject matter, themes, like little what's his name is a is addicted to uh morphine. Like like very special episodes. It's very interesting.

[36:57] Laura Camien: Um Laura Ingalls Wilder has also been a quintessential symbol of the American West and sort of a larger than life emblem for an entire era. So there's many different layers. Yet you think Laura and her stories are just a shiny golden, delicious apple, but she's more like an onion. There's so much more going on than meets the eye.

[37:19] Susan Blackwell: Um, you know, one of the things I'm obsessed with, and it's something that I like to talk to with our um, I almost said clients, our guests about our corporate clients. Um I'm obsessed with the idea of how it looks on the outside versus what's going on on the inside. Like, so you're a movie star and you walk the red carpet and you're, you know, you're beautiful and you're beautifully dressed. That's what it we all know what it looks on the outside.

[37:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:45] Susan Blackwell: What how's it feel on the inside? I'm interested in that sort of um uh juxtaposition.

[37:52] Laura Camien: Yes, like that tension.

[37:53] Susan Blackwell: I'm interested in that. So the image, the Laura Ingalls Wilder image many of us have is of this older woman sitting down at her writing desk and writing these stories about her girlhood that just flowed out of her pen, and then she sent them off to get them published, and they became worldwide best sellers. And I sometimes think myths like that, like images like that really fuck us as creative people because it's sort of like, oh, it's like that that stuff, and I don't know, JK Rowling, but like that she was like a single mom, and she had her baby next to her in the coffee shop, and she just wrote Harry Potter on the back of a napkin and it flowed from her. And I'm like, let's not oversimplify this.

[38:37] Laura Camien: Like, yeah, just like the work and the anyway.

[38:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes. So I think that those kind of um fantasies about how easy and flowing it is for people and how like pastoral, you know, yeah. It I'm sort of like, don't believe the myth. Um, so let's peel back some onion layers. By the time she sat down to write the books, Laura. I'm just gonna call her Laura because I don't want to say Laura Ingalls Wilder, had already been writing professionally. She had a widely read column in a farm newspaper, a bi-weekly column, and every once in a while her daughter Rose, who was also a writer, would pass on a writing assignment to her mom.

[39:15] Laura Camien: So because of that, Laura had articles in McCall's and Women's Day. Um, so Laura's mother died in 1924, and then her sister Mary, remember Mary? Oh Mary, blind Mary died in 1928, and that's when Laura started gathering these memories and recipes and stories.

[39:34] Susan Blackwell: So she was like in her 1928. Yeah, yeah, that's right. She was born in 1850, something so she was in her late 50s or 60s. I did the math because I was like, how old was she? Yeah, so she was older, but she was already writing, yeah.

[39:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:49] Susan Blackwell: So the first little house type thingy Laura wrote was a book-length memoir, which was just published five years ago, and it's called Pioneer Girl, and mostly it's sort of just like this happened, then this happened, then this happened, and then little flashes and little shimmers of that beautiful writing that make my heart go pity pat and fill me back up. But nobody wanted to publish it when it was an original memoir for an adult audience.

[40:18] Laura Camien: So I see where you're going.

[40:21] Susan Blackwell: So then Laura took. So this is some is about that. You think this is a tenacity story? Yeah, you think this is uh like continuing to evolve and hone and polish story? Just you wait. Just you wait.

[40:35] Laura Camien: So she then took the beginning of Pioneer Girl and fashioned it into something called When Grandma Was a Little Girl. And then that became Little House in the Big Woods, the first of the Little House books. Little House in the Big Woods was a huge success. And it was for a um younger audience. And her daughter Rose had the idea to release a book a year following the life of that heroine.

[41:01] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[41:02] Laura Camien: And and it was heroine, uh Laura was the heroine from the beginning, right?

[41:06] Susan Blackwell: Correct.

[41:06] Laura Camien: And all of her family members were represented. Like Mary.

[41:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[41:10] Laura Camien: And but but as you go, like babies are born and things like that. So last year a biography called Prairie Fires came out, and it's a very warts and all jam. It's debated how much the Laura character actually in the books shares with the real Laura Ingalls Wilder.

[41:31] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[41:31] Laura Camien: Now a lot of people look at these books as emotional soul food. That is Christopher Chaika's term, which I thought was such a I was like, yes, that's exactly the feeling that it gives me emotional soul food. A lot of people look at the books as this emotional soul food, um, and they think of the Ingalls family as being as real as their own families or the families that they wished that they had.

[41:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, yes.

[41:50] Laura Camien: Um, readers of those books idealized the time, but their real lives were wretched and difficult and have been painted with a very loving brush.

[42:03] Susan Blackwell: Um, Pa, Charles Ingalls.

[42:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:06] Susan Blackwell: Just picture Michael Landon, who I always thought was so fucking sexy.

[42:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, God bless.

[42:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, Pa in real life had a real wanderlust and he moved the family a lot. They didn't just live uh and pioneer it up in Walnut Grove, Minnesota. In her life, Laura lived in 10 or 11 different places.

[42:27] Laura Camien: Wow.

[42:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So like Pa would be like, I uh this place, I there's a neighbor two miles away. There's a neighbor 10 miles away. I'm curious. We better move on, Caroline.

[42:40] Laura Camien: Well, I'm curious to know like how did that um relate to other people in that in that time? Like were other people doing that as well?

[42:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I don't know. They're looking for the right spot. I gotta ask Christopher Chaika.

[42:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[42:53] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'm just curious.

[42:54] Susan Blackwell: He can tell us.

[42:54] Laura Camien: Okay.

[42:55] Susan Blackwell: Write that down.

[42:56] Laura Camien: Remember that, McCristoph.

[42:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, but the Ingalls family moved, moved, moved, moved, moved, and kept rebuilding.

[43:03] Laura Camien: Like there are so many cabin over and over again.

[43:06] Susan Blackwell: There are so many museum and homes, like museum sites, historic sites.

[43:10] Laura Camien: No.

[43:10] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[43:11] Laura Camien: Because they kept moving and rebuilding little cabins.

[43:15] Susan Blackwell: And she lived here.

[43:16] Laura Camien: That's right.

[43:16] Susan Blackwell: And she lived here.

[43:17] Laura Camien: There's a lot.

[43:19] Susan Blackwell: I'd say a road trip.

[43:20] Laura Camien: I like it.

[43:21] Susan Blackwell: I'm not getting it.

[43:22] Laura Camien: Can we get one of those airstreams that's like totally decked on the end of the day?

[43:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[43:29] Laura Camien: And they just throw rotten fruit at us for the name of Laura Ingalls Wilder.

[43:36] Susan Blackwell: So the Ingalls family lived in absolute grinding poverty, bordering on bankruptcy and malnutrition.

[43:44] Laura Camien: But it was turned into this very pastoral story.

[43:48] Susan Blackwell: Um, so now we know better.

[43:50] Laura Camien: And that book Pioneer Girl shed light on somebody wrote on any remaining dark corner.

[43:56] Susan Blackwell: Apparently, Paul Ingalls and the family skipped town in the middle of the night when he couldn't pay his debts.

[44:02] Laura Camien: An entire two years of Laura's childhood were purged to avoid the fact that Mary and Laura worked at a hotel where an alcoholic man caught himself on fire and another man tried to grope Laura.

[44:14] Susan Blackwell: Well, hang on.

[44:15] Laura Camien: I know these are children's books.

[44:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but also I wonder like, is there some standard that we're holding them to because they're like loosely autobiographical?

[44:28] Laura Camien: I don't hold them to that standard. I'm like, make whatever you want out of whatever you want. Like it's your life experience. Redream it.

[44:34] Susan Blackwell: And I also was talking to um when Chris was telling when Chris Chica was telling me this, I was like, but wait a second. Our family didn't have money, and our like what's growing up.

[44:46] Laura Camien: But that's what I knew, and I felt very loved.

[44:49] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And I was like, maybe that's what she was representing is that feeling of love and you know, so it's not everything we need.

[45:02] Laura Camien: This is it, these are child.

[45:03] Susan Blackwell: I'm no, I'm not saying that there should be a chapter depicting all of you know the stuff.

[45:08] Laura Camien: No, I know you're not, but I'm curious. Like, is there some some like this prairie fires and people are people like um I'm imagining pitchforks?

[45:20] Susan Blackwell: Are they out there villagers protesting? Saying this isn't true.

[45:24] Laura Camien: Um, I don't know. Christopher, get on this show. Hurry up. We need you.

[45:32] Susan Blackwell: All of that is to say, none of that stuff was included in the books that depict it. The books depict a family who moved through hard times with unrelenting spirit and drive.

[45:42] Laura Camien: That's right.

[45:42] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, that is appropriate for a children's book.

[45:46] Laura Camien: And that can still be true. Even if it fucking sucked.

[45:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[45:50] Laura Camien: Her perspective is that fucking sucked.

[45:53] Susan Blackwell: What the fuck did we get through this?

[45:55] Laura Camien: With perseverance by sticking together by all those things.

[45:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[45:59] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:00] Susan Blackwell: I don't, I want to be clear. I don't.

[46:02] Laura Camien: I think actually there's something so beautiful about taking.

[46:08] Susan Blackwell: I think about my own work and my own writing and how I've taken, I've sort of like hand selected those pieces.

[46:15] Laura Camien: Some of them are sweet, some of them are bittersweet.

[46:18] Susan Blackwell: That I it no, it doesn't tell the whole story. Of course, you know, it doesn't, but it's the part of the it's the story I want to tell.

[46:26] Laura Camien: And it's my work, and I get to do whatever the fuck I want.

[46:29] Susan Blackwell: Whatever you want.

[46:30] Laura Camien: Whatever you want.

[46:31] Susan Blackwell: Um, so Laura may have had to this point wonderful relationships with her family, but the real life was actually very tough.

[46:41] Laura Camien: She did say that her father was no businessman.

[46:46] Susan Blackwell: He was never a failure as a father, but he was a failure at everything else.

[46:51] Laura Camien: Which when we think of sweet Pa, when we think of Charles, when we think of Michael Lando.

[46:55] Susan Blackwell: Michael Landon.

[46:56] Laura Camien: We want to think of this like he was good at being a friend.

[47:00] Susan Blackwell: But he was good at everything.

[47:01] Laura Camien: He was good at building a cabin every other year.

[47:04] Susan Blackwell: Like providing hunting, gathering, but that's those are tough words.

[47:09] Laura Camien: He was never a failure as a father.

[47:10] Susan Blackwell: Sweet.

[47:11] Laura Camien: He was a failure at everything else.

[47:12] Susan Blackwell: Rough.

[47:14] Laura Camien: Um, but it's really come to light that Laura Ingalls Wilder was a tough, tough cookie.

[47:20] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[47:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:21] Susan Blackwell: Not just a sweet old lady at a writing desk.

[47:24] Laura Camien: She was a tough cookie.

[47:26] Susan Blackwell: And also that she had a stormy relationship with her daughter Rose.

[47:30] Laura Camien: Oh.

[47:31] Susan Blackwell: Another tough cookie.

[47:33] Laura Camien: Really?

[47:34] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[47:35] Laura Camien: So some have complained.

[47:37] Susan Blackwell: Some critics, lovers of Laura Ingalls Wilder have complained that a huge chunk of the book Prairie Fires is about Laura's daughter Rose.

[47:45] Laura Camien: But the story of the little house books is very closely tied to Rose.

[47:49] Susan Blackwell: Yes, everybody likes the sunbonnets and the sun and the wind on the prairie grass, but then you add in a very opinionated, potentially lesbian daughter.

[47:59] Laura Camien: What?

[48:00] Susan Blackwell: What?

[48:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, you think this is a story about perseverance.

[48:05] Susan Blackwell: It's not that.

[48:07] Laura Camien: Apparently.

[48:08] Susan Blackwell: The next chapter of the spark is we need to talk about Rose.

[48:13] Laura Camien: So Rose Wilder Lane was born in 1886 and she lived until 1968.

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: She is the daughter of Almanzo and Laura Ingalls Wilder.

[48:24] Laura Camien: Um growing up, Rose's parents were dirt poor.

[48:28] Susan Blackwell: Now think of that. Those books have earned left sold and sold internationally. How is it that possible they were dirt poor?

[48:34] Laura Camien: Because she didn't start writing them. Laura didn't start writing them until she was like in her 60s.

[48:39] Susan Blackwell: But Rose must have oh, I think so.

[48:43] Laura Camien: Yes, they were.

[48:44] Susan Blackwell: Then the money came in.

[48:46] Laura Camien: Yeah, okay.

[48:47] Susan Blackwell: They're living in this town, small town in Missouri.

[48:49] Laura Camien: Um, and this is the town where Laura spent the last 60 years of her life.

[48:53] Susan Blackwell: It's in the South in Mansfield, Missouri.

[48:57] Laura Camien: And so daughter Rose was insanely intelligent.

[49:00] Susan Blackwell: And it is thought now by some that she would have she would be diagnosed as bipolar.

[49:07] Laura Camien: Rose would be uh, but maybe they didn't have that term.

[49:10] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[49:11] Laura Camien: So Rose was mercilessly picked on at school, and she was too smart for her own good.

[49:17] Susan Blackwell: And so she stopped going to school in the sixth or seventh grade because they had no more to teach her, and she had read all the books in the library, and they were like, We got no more for you.

[49:29] Laura Camien: Okay.

[49:29] Susan Blackwell: So Almanzo's sister, Rose's aunt, took her to Louisiana and enrolled her in high school there.

[49:35] Laura Camien: And then when she completed that, Rose came back um to Missouri for the summer after high school, and she was like, A no, and she pieced right on out of there.

[49:46] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[49:46] Laura Camien: Um, Chris Chaika, who is a passionate, he's super passionate about this.

[49:51] Susan Blackwell: He has visited Mansfield, Missouri, and he says, when you talk to people about Rose, they say things like, she was nice.

[50:01] Laura Camien: She was different.

[50:02] Susan Blackwell: I smell a mokita.

[50:07] Laura Camien: That's the name of your segment.

[50:09] Susan Blackwell: I smell Mokita.

[50:11] Laura Camien: Can we go back and put that in in post?

[50:14] Susan Blackwell: Um, so Rose then moved to Kansas City to become a telegraph operator, and then she became this globe-trotting journalist.

[50:20] Laura Camien: Oh, and just like her grandfather, Paul Charles Ingalls, she had a wanderlust, and she yeah, so she, you know, she lived around the world, she had many languages, as they say, um, spoke many languages.

[50:34] Susan Blackwell: She wrote, she was she was tasked with writing the authorized biographies of Charlie Chaplin, Herbert Hoover, Jack London, and she would spice them up by writing these fictionalized passages to make it more exciting until the subject, like Charlie Chaplin would call her and be like, I've read these pages.

[50:52] Laura Camien: What this never happened.

[50:54] Susan Blackwell: And she was, yeah, but it's more exciting, Charlie.

[50:56] Laura Camien: So it's more interesting.

[50:57] Susan Blackwell: I think it was the family of like the family or estate of Jack London was like cease and desist.

[51:04] Laura Camien: Really?

[51:04] Susan Blackwell: After she had been given permission to write the book.

[51:08] Laura Camien: Authorized autobiographer.

[51:10] Susan Blackwell: Authorized biographer.

[51:12] Laura Camien: Wow.

[51:12] Susan Blackwell: You know what I'm saying?

[51:13] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[51:14] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah.

[51:14] Laura Camien: So she had a bit of the bit of the blarning fiction writing.

[51:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[51:19] Laura Camien: So there's a book called The Libertarians on the Prairie.

[51:24] Susan Blackwell: Here's another fun fact.

[51:25] Laura Camien: Rose is credited as one of the founders of the Libertarian Party.

[51:29] Susan Blackwell: Whoa.

[51:29] Laura Camien: And she was big buddies with Ayn Rand.

[51:31] Susan Blackwell: Like this is who this is what we're talking about here.

[51:34] Laura Camien: Like she came from Po Dunkis, Missouri.

[51:37] Susan Blackwell: And she is this like really intelligent, really like spiky, savvy, world traveling writer, and um, I don't know.

[51:51] Laura Camien: Was her name just Rose Wilder?

[51:53] Susan Blackwell: It she it was Rose Wilder Lane, I believe.

[51:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, she was she was married once for a time to a man.

[51:59] Susan Blackwell: Um so the New Yorker article said of Rose the transformation of a barefoot Cinderella from the Ozarks into a stylish cosmopolite who acquired several languages, enjoyed smoking and fornication, and dined at Le Raton when she wasn't motoring around Europe in her model T is like the Little House books, an American saga.

[52:22] Laura Camien: Wow.

[52:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[52:23] Laura Camien: I'm like, yes, the little house books are phenomenal, and I love them, but there are other good stories in the Wilder family.

[52:32] Susan Blackwell: So daughter Rose had moved to New York to become a big sophisticated New Yorker, and she invested all of Laura and Almanzo's money in the stock market right before it crashed.

[52:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:43] Susan Blackwell: Sucks balls.

[52:44] Laura Camien: And she was trying to provide her parents with a degree of financial security so that they wouldn't have to live on they had like a small family Apple farm, I think.

[52:52] Susan Blackwell: So Rose was encouraging her mother to write more.

[52:56] Laura Camien: Now, this is where it gets tricky.

[52:59] Susan Blackwell: It is generally accepted that Rose had an editorial hand in the creation of the little house books.

[53:05] Laura Camien: Oh.

[53:05] Susan Blackwell: Depending on who you speak to, she either took her mother's notes and typed them up.

[53:11] Laura Camien: Or she took the manuscripts and rewrote them.

[53:15] Susan Blackwell: Or some believe they were written outright by Rose.

[53:15] Laura Camien: What?

[53:15] Susan Blackwell: What?

[53:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, you think this is where we start getting hate mail.

[53:25] Susan Blackwell: Um what?

[53:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[53:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[53:28] Laura Camien: I'm upset.

[53:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[53:29] Laura Camien: What now?

[53:30] Susan Blackwell: I ain't there has to be some evidence and proof that Laura Ingalls Wilder wrote those books.

[53:40] Laura Camien: So some people actually think no.

[53:43] Susan Blackwell: Rose fabricated.

[53:44] Laura Camien: Yes, too. Please tell me more.

[53:45] Susan Blackwell: Tell me more.

[53:46] Laura Camien: Tell me more.

[53:46] Susan Blackwell: So um it is acknowledged that none of these books would have been published if Rose hadn't had all her contacts in the publishing world.

[53:53] Laura Camien: I see.

[53:53] Susan Blackwell: So we start with that.

[53:54] Laura Camien: Okay, okay.

[53:55] Susan Blackwell: There is a gentleman named William Anderson who's a historian and the author of several books on Laura.

[54:00] Laura Camien: He began working at the at Laura's homestead, I don't know which of the eleven as a teenager, and even corresponded with Rose, Laura's daughter.

[54:08] Susan Blackwell: Anderson was the first to discover that Laura's books didn't quite align with the truth, though Rose hushed him up.

[54:15] Laura Camien: Every word was absolutely true, she asserted.

[54:18] Susan Blackwell: So Rose was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's all true.

[54:22] Laura Camien: And my mother wrote them.

[54:23] Susan Blackwell: Apparently.

[54:25] Laura Camien: Which would be an important thing to convince people of.

[54:29] Susan Blackwell: Well, especially if you're a journalist who like writing a book for kids is kind of like net.

[54:35] Laura Camien: It's a little bit of like a maybe it not now, but then it would be a little bit of like a just tarnish your reputation as a journalist, maybe.

[54:45] Susan Blackwell: So the manuscript for the Laura Ingalls Wilder's book, the first four years, was found amidst Rose's papers after Rose died.

[54:54] Laura Camien: And apparently it's kind of dreadful.

[54:57] Susan Blackwell: It's not well written, the characters seem a little off.

[55:00] Laura Camien: And the theory is that Laura, this is Laura's unvarnished, unimproved work.

[55:06] Susan Blackwell: And that Rose may have left it behind as a kind of a like a gotcha.

[55:10] Laura Camien: A little bit like a little bit of proof.

[55:13] Susan Blackwell: Um as I was saying Laura died before her mom.

[55:16] Laura Camien: Correct.

[55:17] Susan Blackwell: I mean, no, Laura died before Rose.

[55:19] Laura Camien: That's correct.

[55:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:20] Laura Camien: Okay.

[55:21] Susan Blackwell: So as I was saying, when they were being written, children's books were seen uh what at that time it would have been seen as slumming a little bit, and Rose was already a pretty highly regarded author.

[55:32] Laura Camien: And so that working on them or acknowledging her work on them could have tarnished her image as an author.

[55:38] Susan Blackwell: Um, but this just adds to the complexity of who actually wrote those books.

[55:42] Laura Camien: So there is such a deep love for the books and the idea of Laura Ingalls Wilder that a lot of people who care about the books a lot, they do not like to hear about the role that Rose played in their creation.

[55:55] Susan Blackwell: Any role at all.

[55:56] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[55:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:58] Laura Camien: So the editor of the 2015 release of that book Pioneer Girl, which was the first first thing that Laura wrote, said the relationship with editors and authors has potentially changed over the last 20 years.

[56:10] Susan Blackwell: And what Rose was doing with Laura was potentially more in line with what editors used to do when they worked with authors back in the day.

[56:19] Laura Camien: And I also, in talking with Christopher, I was like, is it possible that she took liberties because of the familiarity of a mother-daughter relationship?

[56:26] Susan Blackwell: That she could just be like, Mom, just give it to me.

[56:28] Laura Camien: Let me just that's right.

[56:30] Susan Blackwell: Let me just juge this a little bit.

[56:32] Laura Camien: Um but I sort of like I know people have a deep abiding love of those books.

[56:40] Susan Blackwell: And I guess it would be like if you found like I love the Harry Potter books, and I guess it'd be like if you found out that somebody else had uh contributed to or took it, took first drafts and subsequently did improvements.

[56:54] Laura Camien: But I'm sort of like, I kind of I find it deeply interesting.

[56:58] Susan Blackwell: And I also I don't care because I'm just like I still get the pleasure out of it.

[57:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:04] Susan Blackwell: And then I just get a deeper story about this really interesting daughter and this really interesting mother-daughter dynamic.

[57:13] Susan Blackwell: So I kind of don't give a shit.

[57:15] Laura Camien: Do you have a thought?

[57:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I just think um, I think it has to do with how much you emotionally bought into the idea of these books really being her life story.

[57:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:29] Susan Blackwell: If you know they're not quite her life story to begin with, it doesn't feel that bad that it would be her daughter who would, you know, flesh out what's not quite her life story.

[57:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:42] Susan Blackwell: And it's from family memories, and it just makes a great tale. And these are great characters and great stories, and great. It's really it's easy for me to believe like that she made like very, then this happened, then this happened, then this happened. Notes. And then like uh sorry, a more maybe a more sophisticated writer could take them and turn them into and as we know, Rose had a penchant for that's right, punching it up.

[58:09] Laura Camien: Uh huh.

[58:09] Susan Blackwell: She could punch it up, punching it up, and those those like I just remembered the feeling of um not too heavy handed uh messages and lessons to be learned in there, but not hit over the head, you know, in a way.

[58:25] Laura Camien: Like it just felt yeah.

[58:28] Susan Blackwell: The truth the fact is whoever wrote them, whoever wrote them, they have a very high sparkometer reading.

[58:37] Laura Camien: Yes, they do.

[58:38] Susan Blackwell: The books have sold 34 million copies, 34 million copies in 71 countries.

[58:47] Laura Camien: This work has inspired, of course, the TV series.

[58:49] Susan Blackwell: That's right, which has Little House on the Prairie has been on the air somewhere every day since it first aired in the 1970s. Um, Laura's many prairie homesteads are shrines with droves of fans and homeschooled kids and wealthy Japanese visitors going to them every year.

[59:08] Laura Camien: Of course.

[59:08] Susan Blackwell: Um Laura's adult home near Mansfield, Missouri has 40,000 visitors, 40,000 visitors a year.

[59:16] Laura Camien: Wow.

[59:16] Susan Blackwell: Every single one of you would listen to this podcast. Um just rate, review, subscribe. Um have you ever another fucking have you ever watched um on YouTube? There's something called the 30 Second Little House.

[59:32] Laura Camien: No, do you know that series?

[59:33] Susan Blackwell: No. Some genius did a thing. It it's literally it's called 30 Second Little House, and it's many episodes of Little House on the Prairie. In 30 seconds. So if you are familiar with the series, and you are, then that is a fun pleasure. And it has a lot of like boy young sounds and stuff like that.

[59:52] Laura Camien: There's a thing called Laura Palooza, which is like a big.

[59:56] Susan Blackwell: It's exactly what you think it is.

[59:58] Laura Camien: Wait, is it people in costume living in some era?

[1:00:02] Susan Blackwell: There's some. There's some of that. And then there's also some people that are just like, I love those books, and I love this vest that's covered with patches kind of stuff.

[1:00:10] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:00:11] Susan Blackwell: Um hardcore fans are called bonnet heads, which I'll refer to. I just want to read this quote from the New York Times. I love this quote. Both swathes of the American electorate lay claim to the little house mythology and the blueprint the books offer.

[1:00:28] Laura Camien: Oh.

[1:00:29] Susan Blackwell: For every grown-up little house fan who's now an artisanal pickle maker with a backyard composter. There's another who's in an evangelical homeschooler dreaming of living off the land and off the grid.

[1:00:39] Laura Camien: Holy shit.

[1:00:40] Susan Blackwell: It's there's something for everybody.

[1:00:42] Laura Camien: So true.

[1:00:43] Susan Blackwell: And freaking off the grid and the movement.

[1:00:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:00:46] Susan Blackwell: You know, in the last few years, um, of people like dreaming of homesteading and getting off the grid. Just like self-reliance.

[1:00:54] Laura Camien: That's zero carbon emission, baby.

[1:00:58] Susan Blackwell: That's right. So the sweet, simple things of life, which are the real ones, after all.

[1:01:06] Laura Camien: Maybe.

[1:01:08] Susan Blackwell: Or maybe it's the bittersweet, messy, complex things in life that are the real ones after all.

[1:01:15] Laura Camien: Right?

[1:01:15] Susan Blackwell: Fucking deal. Or maybe it's all of it. Maybe it's the calico and the prairie breezes and the butter churning and the globe trotting, bless you, ghostwriting, bipolar, potentially lesbian daughters. And as far as I'm concerned, all of it is so full of sparks.

[1:01:30] Laura Camien: It's even better.

[1:01:31] Susan Blackwell: It's I love the richness of it. It's the truth. It's real.

[1:01:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:01:36] Susan Blackwell: I mean, the best is like that a person with a complicated life, both Laura and Rose.

[1:01:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:01:49] Susan Blackwell: Look what they made out of it.

[1:01:51] Laura Camien: I know.

[1:01:52] Susan Blackwell: Do you think Rose wanted people to know?

[1:01:57] Laura Camien: No.

[1:01:58] Susan Blackwell: She didn't know.

[1:01:59] Laura Camien: Even after they were huge success.

[1:02:01] Susan Blackwell: No, I don't I I unless that like leaving that unlike completely unedited manuscript was her mom's work. Her final like piece out. Like maybe that was like a little, but that's I that's conjecture. Chris Chaika can tell us otherwise when we talk to him. But like I think she was living her big life.

[1:02:25] Laura Camien: I think that Rose was just like living her big life and helping her, you know, did they get mom? Did they get super wealthy in their lifetime? Or she took the money and then they lost it in the stock market.

[1:02:37] Susan Blackwell: No, no, no. Oh no.

[1:02:38] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:02:39] Susan Blackwell: I think that they made money. And and uh I don't know. Oh, I think I think Rose left her stake. Um, because Rose inherited a lot of money from this, and I feel like it got I'm gonna fuck this up. I feel like it got left to like a friend because she didn't have any kids.

[1:03:03] Laura Camien: Oh interesting.

[1:03:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and she was an only child.

[1:03:07] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think. Is that possible? Is that possible?

[1:03:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm not sure. God, I'm such a I I don't remember reading about another kid.

[1:03:15] Laura Camien: So I don't know.

[1:03:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm just a lady trying to make a podcast. Um, but I'll tell you, this is this, I've been so excited to share this with you because this is sort of after our last spark about how I broke up with my cell phone, and my cell phone is trying to kill me.

[1:03:32] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:03:32] Susan Blackwell: Um that freaked my shit out. And I was just like, I am not loving my relationship with my screens. And so Nathan and I have been consciously trying to like, because our default will be we'll work all day and then at night we'll eat dinner and then we'll watch television.

[1:03:55] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:03:56] Susan Blackwell: And there's great TV. There's this is such a there's so much that's so good. But just trying a couple nights a week to not do that, yeah, and to break that, and either like sit at the dining room table and do a craft next to each other, or who's little house now? But we've been here you go. We've been reading the little house books out loud to each other.

[1:04:21] Laura Camien: Oh, I just love that you read out loud to each other. I think it's the sweetest.

[1:04:25] Susan Blackwell: Do you know why?

[1:04:26] Laura Camien: Why?

[1:04:27] Susan Blackwell: It's something we can do together, and I, if I read, okay, if I read to myself, I fall asleep. I can't stay awake.

[1:04:36] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[1:04:38] Susan Blackwell: I can't read anymore. I get tired.

[1:04:40] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:04:41] Susan Blackwell: I might be like, oh, I'm so excited. I'm like fully awake and ready to read. And then it's fun because we read and we pause and we're like, can you believe they're batting around a pig's bladder around? That's crazy. And then we'll keep reading again. But it's really so good. It gives me a really peaceful feeling, those books.

[1:05:02] Laura Camien: And so I don't give a shit who wrote them because either way.

[1:05:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But wow, that's one of literary's big mysteries, huh?

[1:05:13] Laura Camien: Maybe it's not so much of a mystery anymore.

[1:05:16] Susan Blackwell: Wow. Yeah. When was that? When when did she die?

[1:05:19] Laura Camien: 68?

[1:05:21] Susan Blackwell: Wait, let me go to the people have been maybe analyzing this for quite some time. Oh, Rose died in 68. She died uh and that's when someone was like, hey, here's her mom's work.

[1:05:35] Laura Camien: Hmm.

[1:05:36] Susan Blackwell: She oh, and Laura would lived from 1867 to 1957.

[1:05:45] Laura Camien: That's amazing.

[1:05:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's my spark. I'm not kidding about the road trip. I say I'm down to clown.

[1:05:53] Laura Camien: That sounds like fun.

[1:05:54] Susan Blackwell: Seriously. And I think there might be some really good like antique stores along the way.

[1:05:59] Laura Camien: This is really turned into grandma's podcast.

[1:06:04] Susan Blackwell: And this is Grammy Cam signing up.

[1:06:06] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:06:07] Susan Blackwell: There are some good well, yeah. Some, you know, do you ever drive down? This is totally off topic. But do you ever drive like those long stretches of road and like out of nowhere? It'll be like um flea market or antique shop, 70 vendors or whatever, and you're just like, I'm in the middle of Florida, and I'm two hours from any city.

[1:06:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:06:31] Susan Blackwell: What the hell could be in here?

[1:06:33] Laura Camien: Yeah. Do you ever stop?

[1:06:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:06:35] Laura Camien: I do.

[1:06:36] Susan Blackwell: I I'm putting on my bucket list to stop more.

[1:06:41] Laura Camien: I like it.

[1:06:43] Susan Blackwell: I have taken to um, especially when I'm traveling to teach. I will map out like all the thrift stores within like whatever driving, walking distance or whatever that I can get to, and I'll just visit.

[1:07:04] Laura Camien: But the problem is getting shit home sometimes.

[1:07:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:07:07] Laura Camien: But I have been known to buy a like a rubber made tub and fill it and check it as my checked bag.

[1:07:17] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[1:07:18] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's serious.

[1:07:19] Susan Blackwell: It is. It's serious.

[1:07:20] Laura Camien: That is fucking awesome.

[1:07:23] Susan Blackwell: I have a problem. I used to travel a lot internationally for work.

[1:07:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:07:28] Susan Blackwell: And I would do the same. I would figure out like, is there a flea market? Yeah. Is there what it is? Because of course I want to like you want treasures. Just treasures that you just wouldn't find anywhere.

[1:07:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:07:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh, one time I found um this amazing pair of sunglasses that was like pre Berlin wall.

[1:07:47] Laura Camien: Oh and I was like, wow, these these are amazing. And I took them home and I went so dumb. I was like paddle boarding with those sunglasses on in the Gulf of Mexico.

[1:08:02] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:08:03] Susan Blackwell: I opened the harmonized things. Fell down. I was like, these are the ocean eater sunglasses.

[1:08:09] Laura Camien: Yes, they survived.

[1:08:11] Susan Blackwell: The Berlin Wall coming down, but they did not survive. One battle boarding trip with me.

[1:08:16] Laura Camien: One. Aw boo.

[1:08:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That's why I really can't have nice things.

[1:08:21] Laura Camien: That's really cool though.

[1:08:22] Susan Blackwell: But I do like if you go, like I it's just something I didn't think of when I, you know, first started traveling. And then I was like, what the hell can I do? I will also, like, if I have to, if I'm driving to um some place that I'm teaching or something, I will say it's like a three-hour drive. I'll route it, I'll like map the route, and then I will like look for thrift stores on the way, and I will break up the trip by thrifting on the way there.

[1:08:47] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:08:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And it helps me to like look forward to the because I don't love driving, but I'd do it the next stop. And I do like it. And you know what? You discover, and I'm not gonna say it on this podcast because I don't want you to fish my phone. You actually can't fish in those ponds. Don't fish those spots. Um but there are places in this United in these United States that are really superior for thrifting.

[1:09:10] Laura Camien: Really superior.

[1:09:11] Susan Blackwell: But we can't speak of them.

[1:09:12] Laura Camien: Nope.

[1:09:13] Susan Blackwell: Sorry, such that is hilarious. Find your own fishing space. The ideas are free for the taking, not those except where to find my mid-century pieces. If you know of a great place to find um, I really am interested in the 50s, the 60s, and the 70s. And if you know of a good place for me to thrift, please share with them. Email me at the sparkfile at gmail.com. And I'm not gonna tell anybody. I'm gonna keep it to my I'm gonna keep it to myself because I can keep a secret.

[1:09:40] Laura Camien: A mid-century fish and hole is what we're looking for.

[1:09:44] Susan Blackwell: And if you know of one, please obsess. Do we have anything else? Should we let these people go about their business?

[1:09:49] Laura Camien: Just let them go.

[1:09:51] Susan Blackwell: They need to get to work.

[1:09:53] Laura Camien: I know you need you if you're done with that workout now.

[1:09:56] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Um you can just enjoy your time. You're almost done waxing the floor.

[1:10:01] Laura Camien: I thought you were waxing something else, but that's okay.

[1:10:05] Susan Blackwell: Um we hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file. But seriously, if there, if you want to tell us about a thrift store that we should visit, um, or if there's a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you have a spark you'd like to share, won't you email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com. Um and be sure to sub subscribe.

[1:10:22] Laura Camien: Me.

[1:10:26] Susan Blackwell: I can't say it. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast wherever you get your podcast.

[1:10:31] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:10:31] Susan Blackwell: Subscribe, rate, review, you sons of bitches. Listen up. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, it's your turn now to take a spark and fan that little baby into a floor.

[1:10:44] Laura Camien: Listen to me.

[1:10:45] Susan Blackwell: You've got to write it, recite it, freak, see it, go on and be it. Just go on, take it and make it.

[1:10:53] Laura Camien: The spark file.

[1:10:56] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:11:04] Laura Camien: Spark files could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:11:10] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:11:14] Laura Camien: Spark.

[1:11:15] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files.

[1:11:18] Laura Camien: Spark.

[1:11:20] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark files.