This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, your one stop hobby shop for creative inspiration.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:44] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome.

[0:47] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the 17 millionth time, welcome.

[0:51] Susan Blackwell: You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:54] Laura Camien: Where do I get one?

[0:55] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: These are such good questions, and we have got answers.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:04] Laura Camien: But here's the deal.

[1:09] Susan Blackwell: But if you're like us and making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:19] Laura Camien: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:24] Susan Blackwell: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:29] Susan Blackwell: Or a life-changing adventure in the woods.

[1:34] Susan Blackwell: Or a mess of creativity that makes the world a better place.

[1:38] Laura Camien: Oh, every episode we're gonna reach into the spark pile and exchange some sparks.

[1:43] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some makers who spark us too.

[1:47] Susan Blackwell: And if you're not careful, you might find some peace inside the chaos.

[1:52] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the Sparks File.

[1:58] Susan Blackwell: Cammy.

[1:59] Laura Camien: Blackwell.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: Can we take a second and chitty chat?

[2:03] Laura Camien: We can.

[2:04] Susan Blackwell: And reflect upon the Sparkfile New Year 2020 Creativity Workshop and Live Podcasts.

[2:13] Laura Camien: Damn, that weekend was good.

[2:15] Susan Blackwell: It was it's doing something like that, it's a big lift, and it takes a lot of preparation, a lot of logistics, a lot of thought.

[2:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:24] Laura Camien: There's a lot that goes into it.

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: And then you hope that all of that work will pay off.

[2:30] Laura Camien: It I think it did.

[2:32] Susan Blackwell: Spoiler.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: It was phenomenal.

[2:36] Susan Blackwell: I don't mean to like break my arm patting us on the back.

[2:40] Susan Blackwell: It was magnificent.

[2:41] Laura Camien: Like what a great group of people.

[2:43] Susan Blackwell: Incredible group of people.

[2:49] Laura Camien: So good.

[2:49] Laura Camien: I I'm on the lookout for a word though to describe that extreme exhaustion and absolute invigoration at the same time.

[3:02] Susan Blackwell: Because by the end of the weekend, it was like we left it all on the court.

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: You know, all everybody there gave everything they had.

[3:10] Susan Blackwell: And I think we all felt like it all spilled out of us.

[3:14] Laura Camien: And we did the work.

[3:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:17] Laura Camien: And we were exhausted for having done the work.

[3:21] Laura Camien: And so freaking invigorated.

[3:24] Laura Camien: Like I bounced out of there on a cloud of energy.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: Um, that has floated, you know, for days on end afterwards.

[3:32] Laura Camien: Floated you into 2020.

[3:34] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: And I don't think I don't know of a word that describes that combination of feelings, but I've had that before.

[3:41] Laura Camien: I've had the that experience before.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: I have described that feeling to my friend Yoni, who's a psychiatrist.

[3:47] Susan Blackwell: And I've I'm like, what is that?

[3:49] Yoni: It sounds like you're describing a hypomanic state.

[3:55] Yoni: Great. It can feel like you could lift a car off a toddler.

[4:00] Yoni: Like you can feel like you've really expended yourself and it can feel amazing.

[4:03] Yoni: It's it's problematic when it goes too far, and you like wake up on Fifth Avenue not wearing pants and wondering how you got there.

[4:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:13] Laura Camien: That's it at its extreme.

[4:14] Susan Blackwell: I wouldn't say that was it.

[4:17] Susan Blackwell: I just think it's there's something to being physically tired, but mentally inspired.

[4:24] Laura Camien: Oh, that's more poetic than also maybe not a mental illness.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[4:31] Susan Blackwell: Um it was it was a joy from beginning to end.

[4:35] Susan Blackwell: And I feel like it is a I do think part of that is we were ready to rock.

[4:40] Susan Blackwell: Like we created the foundation for great work.

[4:44] Laura Camien: But again, I turned back to each of those individuals that for whatever reason were called to be there.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[4:52] Laura Camien: To a person.

[4:53] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[4:54] Susan Blackwell: Magnificent.

[4:55] Laura Camien: Incredible.

[4:56] Susan Blackwell: Incredible.

[4:57] Laura Camien: Incredible.

[4:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:58] Laura Camien: And then we had the special guests from Freestyle Love Supreme.

[5:03] Susan Blackwell: I mean, come on.

[5:04] Laura Camien: Come on.

[5:05] Laura Camien: There, there are those interviews that we not interviews, conversations that we have where it feels like we could talk for 10 more hours and just be tip of the iceberg.

[5:16] Susan Blackwell: And due respect to the love of your life, West A.

[5:19] Laura Camien: West Day.

[5:19] Laura Camien: I think you were ready to marry Anthony Veniziale.

[5:22] Susan Blackwell: And do respect to you.

[5:23] Susan Blackwell: I think I freaked him out because I was like, um, oh my god, I think I'm in love with you.

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: And the look on his face changed.

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: I'm not kidding.

[5:31] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, not in a weird way.

[5:33] Susan Blackwell: Not in a weird way.

[5:35] Susan Blackwell: The more I say now, the weirder it's gonna get.

[5:37] Laura Camien: So Anastasia.

[5:38] Laura Camien: So let's leave it at that.

[5:39] Laura Camien: But your brain is so I mean, he's a handsome man.

[5:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but his brain is wonderful.

[5:48] Laura Camien: As is Chris Shockwave Sullivan.

[5:50] Susan Blackwell: The whole thing.

[5:51] Laura Camien: That's right.

[5:51] Laura Camien: And uh coming out of that, we are running like a pilot program for people that have been through that curriculum with the Sparks File Accountability Collective, which is a crew of people.

[6:05] Laura Camien: People applied for it, and um a handful of people were accepted.

[6:11] Susan Blackwell: The brave the astronaut program.

[6:13] Laura Camien: But um we've been rocking creative accountability with this uh mighty crew of people and the things they're making again, could not have hand selected a better group of people.

[6:26] Susan Blackwell: I feel so lucky.

[6:28] Laura Camien: It's an honor.

[6:28] Susan Blackwell: I was just gonna say that.

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: It's an honor, it's a privilege.

[6:31] Laura Camien: It feels I just feel I feel lucky as well.

[6:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[6:37] Laura Camien: You get misty over there.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: Um should we get to sparking?

[6:41] Laura Camien: I want to know your spark.

[6:42] Susan Blackwell: Good because I'm gonna lay it on you.

[6:44] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[6:45] Susan Blackwell: It's a that's exciting.

[6:46] Susan Blackwell: This is a mighty spark.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: And so I'm gonna try not to make this a three hour episode of the Sparkfile podcast.

[6:52] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna do my best.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Here we go.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: The following is a true story.

[6:57] Susan Blackwell: I was at this thing a while back and I met this guy.

[7:00] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna call him Dave.

[7:02] Susan Blackwell: And I said, hi, I'm Susan.

[7:04] Susan Blackwell: And he said, Hi, I'm Dave.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: It's nice to meet you.

[7:06] Susan Blackwell: Boy, can you believe can can you believe what's happening in the world?

[7:10] Susan Blackwell: It's out of control.

[7:11] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I can't believe this is real.

[7:12] Susan Blackwell: I'm just freaking out.

[7:13] Susan Blackwell: Can you believe that this is our world?

[7:16] Susan Blackwell: And I said, It's nice to meet you, Dave.

[7:20] Susan Blackwell: This, I'm not exaggerating.

[7:21] Susan Blackwell: That was that was it.

[7:23] Laura Camien: Wow.

[7:24] Susan Blackwell: And even though I had just met Dave, I recognize this look in his eyes.

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: I've seen that look in a lot of people's eyes, the look when someone is overwhelmed by the injustice in the world, or maybe for the first time in their life, they're fearing for their personal freedoms.

[7:39] Susan Blackwell: Or they're overwhelmed by some catastrophic weather event that is happening.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: And the fear and overwhelm had Dave turned inside out in front of me, a complete stranger you just met.

[7:54] Susan Blackwell: And even though I just met Dave, I re because I because I am the weirdo, that is me.

[7:59] Susan Blackwell: I reached over, I put my hand on his heart, and I said, Dave, let me ask you a question.

[8:04] Susan Blackwell: How many times have you initiated this conversation?

[8:09] Susan Blackwell: I just met you, I don't know you, but if I may so be so bold, I'd like to offer you something, and you can always tell me to go fuck myself, Dave.

[8:16] Susan Blackwell: But I think I know what's going on here.

[8:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh I'm so I sometimes I can't believe that I don't get punched in the face more.

[8:25] Susan Blackwell: I was like, Dave, I think you're addicted to this conversation.

[8:25] Susan Blackwell: I think you're addicted to this, like this Wow.

[8:33] Susan Blackwell: And you talk and you talk a lot about it and you stew on it, but I think there's other options.

[8:38] Susan Blackwell: There are things you could actually do.

[8:41] Susan Blackwell: Shit.

[8:42] Susan Blackwell: And he didn't change out he didn't, but we'll get back to that in a minute.

[8:47] Susan Blackwell: This title of my spark is With a Large Group, Little Numbers Can Make a huge Difference.

[8:54] Susan Blackwell: Spark sources include several things, including a story by NPR reporter Laurel Wamsley, whose name I'm obsessed with, a story on Refinery 29 by Makita Reevas, a bunch of other stuff I'm gonna mention, and a tweet from Daniel Kilby.

[9:08] Susan Blackwell: His Twitter handle is at Euro underscore trashed, and it read, I'm a little late listening to the latest Creativity Sparks app of the Sparks File, but the story of the quilters coming together to complete the five dollar quilt reminds me of the crafting bees happening around Australia, making pouches, et cetera, for animals displaced by the bushfires.

[9:29] Laura Camien: Oh.

[9:30] Susan Blackwell: This tweet, as of this recording, this tweet just came in.

[9:33] Susan Blackwell: I was gonna say how I didn't see it.

[9:35] Laura Camien: I don't think you were tagged on it, but I loved it.

[9:38] Susan Blackwell: And of course, I immediately Googled and learned what I could.

[9:42] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[9:43] Susan Blackwell: As everyone knows, the world, parts of the world are literally on fire, figuratively, literally.

[9:48] Susan Blackwell: Literally, there are fires ravaging many parts of Australia.

[9:51] Susan Blackwell: There has been a loss of human life, a loss of property, and animals and natural ecosystems have been devastated.

[9:57] Susan Blackwell: And when something like this happens, Cammian, I am bereft.

[10:02] Laura Camien: I know I'm not alone in this.

[10:03] Susan Blackwell: Seeing animals that have been killed, injured, burned, orphaned, seeing people's lives who have been turned upside down, devastated.

[10:12] Susan Blackwell: It's so hard to process, and it can be so upsetting.

[10:16] Susan Blackwell: And I feel so helpless when something like this is happening on the other side of the world.

[10:21] Laura Camien: That's right.

[10:21] Susan Blackwell: But this is why I was so sparked by Daniel's tweet.

[10:24] Susan Blackwell: It turns out that crafters from around the world are doing what they can with the resources they have available to help.

[10:33] Susan Blackwell: I love crafters.

[10:34] Laura Camien: I love crafters.

[10:36] Susan Blackwell: There are organizations like Animal Rescue Collective Craft Guild.

[10:40] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna say it again, Animal Rescue Collective Craft Guild.

[10:43] Susan Blackwell: It's completely volunteer run that provide clear instructions on how to make rescue crafts.

[10:48] Susan Blackwell: Their tagline creating, sewing, building, and designing for animal rescue.

[10:53] Laura Camien: Oh.

[10:54] Susan Blackwell: According to their Facebook page, which is Facebook.com slash ARFSN crafts, ARFs and Crafts.

[11:06] Susan Blackwell: They rely on the amazing skills of volunteers to produce pouches, wraps, and more for orphaned wildlife.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: This organization works closely with the carers who need the supplies so they can provide information about what is most needed at the time.

[11:19] Susan Blackwell: As of the recording of this podcast, and this will change Joey pouches of all sizes and styles are most needed, whereas koala mittens are not needed anymore.

[11:30] Laura Camien: In case you were wondering, they have enough koala mittens.

[11:33] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[11:34] Susan Blackwell: They also provide patterns and instructions on how to make what is needed.

[11:38] Susan Blackwell: So if you sew, they desperately need bat wraps, Joey pouches of all sizes, and hanging Joey pouches.

[11:46] Susan Blackwell: So a Joey is a baby, uh, it could be a baby kangaroo, it could be a baby wombat or whatever.

[11:50] Laura Camien: Have you told Nancy Blackwell?

[11:52] Susan Blackwell: I have just curious.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: Mom, we need help.

[11:58] Laura Camien: It's like the craft signal.

[12:01] Susan Blackwell: The light that illuminates the skies over Gotham.

[12:05] Laura Camien: I love it.

[12:05] Susan Blackwell: Crocheters, they need your birds' nest making skills.

[12:09] Susan Blackwell: Crochet nests of various sizes are needed for orphaned birds and small rodents.

[12:14] Susan Blackwell: Also, blankets, knitters.

[12:16] Susan Blackwell: If you can knit, you can make some sweet blankets and sweaters that'll keep their fellows warm.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: They have some great knitting patterns that can be whipped up for Joey's, lambs, penguins, and other animals.

[12:27] Susan Blackwell: Knitted Joey pouches are also needed.

[12:31] Susan Blackwell: They also have approved patterns that meet the requirements and preferences of the folks providing care for the animals.

[12:37] Susan Blackwell: So, for instance, if you're sewing a hanging Joey pouch, picture sort of a purse with a strap.

[12:43] Susan Blackwell: It needs to be sewn on a machine.

[12:46] Susan Blackwell: There can't be corners.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: It needs to be rounded so that their little faces don't get stuck in the corners.

[12:52] Susan Blackwell: And the interior seams need to be finished so that the little claws don't get tangled up in threads inside the pouch.

[12:59] Susan Blackwell: The interior liners must be natural fibers, but they can't be wool.

[13:03] Susan Blackwell: You want to use fabric that you put next to a baby's skin.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: They have super clear patterns and instructions for all of this.

[13:11] Susan Blackwell: But this got me thinking about other ways that creatives and makers can use their gifts and crafts and passions and self-expression to be of service or to support social justice or express political activism.

[13:23] Susan Blackwell: And that is my spark this week.

[13:25] Susan Blackwell: I'm calling it making change.

[13:27] Laura Camien: Get it?

[13:28] Susan Blackwell: It's a pun.

[13:29] Laura Camien: I love it.

[13:30] Susan Blackwell: Making change.

[13:31] Susan Blackwell: So this got me thinking of my sister's mother-in-law, Audrey Cancler.

[13:35] Susan Blackwell: Audrey, I don't think you're listening, but if you are, hi.

[13:38] Laura Camien: Hi, Audrey.

[13:39] Susan Blackwell: Audrey is a knitter, and she knits with her group, the Knit Witters.

[13:43] Susan Blackwell: They are a not-for-profit group of about 25 women who meet twice monthly at the first congregational church of Twinsburg, Ohio.

[13:51] Laura Camien: Oh, I love it.

[13:52] Susan Blackwell: Knit winners.

[13:53] Susan Blackwell: These volunteers produce hundreds of baby blankets, hats, and booties for the premies at the local hospital, afghans and socks for hospice patients, mittens and hats for local school children, and scarves for those in the service.

[14:05] Susan Blackwell: And so I reached out to Audrey and I was like, Audrey, tell me more.

[14:09] Laura Camien: Oh, what do you love about it and why did you decide to do it?

[14:12] Yoni: So she said, initially, I went to Knit Witters to provide transportation for a blind friend.

[14:18] Laura Camien: Come on, Audrey.

[14:20] Yoni: Audrey.

[14:20] Yoni: Come on.

[14:21] Yoni: Um, she was a beautiful knitter.

[14:23] Yoni: I decided I should try my hand.

[14:25] Yoni: I had not knitted in 20 years, and she had to teach me three times how to cast on.

[14:30] Yoni: Truthfully, what sparked me to get involved was realizing I could make bed socks for vets, which were greatly needed, and the willingness of the more seasoned knitters to help me learn how to knit.

[14:42] Yoni: I love being part of this group because of the incredible volume of items that are produced, but even more important, it is therapeutic.

[14:49] Yoni: Sitting around with a bunch of sympathetic, kind-hearted listeners is pretty good.

[14:54] Laura Camien: Wow.

[14:54] Laura Camien: Now, this in turn reminded me of a conversation that I had a few years ago with Audrey and my mom, which led me to the website, knitted knockers.org.

[14:54] Yoni: Knitted knockers.

[15:04] Laura Camien: That's right.

[15:05] Laura Camien: Oh, oh, oh, I think I might know what this is.

[15:07] Laura Camien: Oh, I can't wait.

[15:07] Laura Camien: Tell me.

[15:08] Yoni: So knitted knockers are special handmade breast prosthesis for women who have undergone mastectomies.

[15:13] Yoni: That's right or other procedures to the breast.

[15:15] Yoni: That's right.

[15:16] Yoni: Traditional breast prosthetics are usually heavy, expensive, sweaty, and uncomfortable.

[15:22] Yoni: And they typically require special bras or camisoles with pockets and can't be worn for weeks after surgery.

[15:28] Yoni: Knitted knockers, on the other hand, are soft, comfortable, beautiful.

[15:33] Yoni: And when placed in a regular bra, they take the shape and feel of a real breast.

[15:38] Yoni: Their special volunteer knitters provide knitted knockers free to those requesting them.

[15:44] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[15:44] Laura Camien: So incredible.

[15:46] Yoni: They have a great website with tons of resources on it.

[15:49] Yoni: And on the website, I learned that the spark for knitted knockers came from a woman named Barbara Demarist.

[15:55] Yoni: I hope I'm pronouncing your name correct, Barbara.

[15:57] Yoni: In 2011, she was diagnosed with breast cancer and she had to have a mastectomy.

[16:02] Yoni: After the surgery, she called the local cancer society and asked about acquiring prosthesis.

[16:07] Yoni: And the woman replied, Oh, honey, you can't put anything on that scar for at least six weeks.

[16:12] Yoni: But she had to get back to her work and she had her life to live.

[16:15] Yoni: And she said that was the first time she cried.

[16:18] Yoni: Oh through the whole cancer.

[16:20] Yoni: Oh my god.

[16:21] Yoni: That was the first time she cried.

[16:23] Yoni: Barb.

[16:24] Yoni: The next week at the doctor's office, she picked up a brochure for a typical silicone prosthesis.

[16:30] Yoni: And the doctor saw her holding the brochure and said, Most women are not real happy with that as a solution.

[16:35] Yoni: It's too hot, it's heavy, and it's expensive.

[16:37] Yoni: And then he asked her if she knitted.

[16:40] Yoni: And he showed her a picture of a knitted knocker and a link to a place to get the pattern.

[16:45] Yoni: She emailed that pattern to her dear friend, super knitter Phyllis.

[16:49] Yoni: And that Sunday, Barbara stuck a sock in her bra, wore a little loose jacket, and ventured out to church.

[16:56] Yoni: And Phyllis delivered two beautiful knitted knockers to her in a Victoria's Secret bag.

[17:02] Yoni: She took them into the bathroom stall, stuck them in a bra.

[17:05] Yoni: They were light, pretty, soft.

[17:06] Yoni: They fit into her own bra perfectly.

[17:08] Yoni: And she said she knew there's her spark.

[17:11] Yoni: She knew right then that she wanted to make these available to other women going through the same situation.

[17:17] Laura Camien: Cams.

[17:18] Laura Camien: I love these ladies so much.

[17:20] Laura Camien: Yes.

[17:20] Laura Camien: I'm honestly.

[17:21] Laura Camien: We love these ladies.

[17:22] Laura Camien: Cams is crying hot tears.

[17:25] Yoni: The tingle lets you know it's working, Cam.

[17:28] Laura Camien: She asked her to meet a cleaners.

[17:34] Yoni: So Barbara asked her doctor if they would hand them out if she could provide them with a regular stock of knitted knockers.

[17:41] Yoni: And the doctor said they absolutely would.

[17:43] Yoni: Barbara's goal was to provide free, accessible, beautiful knitted knockers to anyone who needed them in her county.

[17:50] Yoni: And with the help of an army of volunteers, she has met that goal.

[17:55] Yoni: But no one group can meet that kind of demand.

[17:57] Yoni: So the purpose of her site, knitted knockers.org, is to have a one-stop place where anything you want to know about these knitted knockers can be found.

[18:07] Yoni: Barbara says, one of the nurses said to me, I sure wish you could be there when we have a woman who is dejected, wondering what they're gonna do.

[18:14] Yoni: And we bring out a bag of knockers.

[18:17] Yoni: They always bring a smile to their face at a difficult time and sometimes tears.

[18:21] Yoni: Barbara said she doesn't need to be there to see it.

[18:24] Yoni: She knows because she was one of them.

[18:27] Laura Camien: How about that?

[18:28] Laura Camien: How about that?

[18:29] Laura Camien: How about that?

[18:30] Laura Camien: Making change.

[18:30] Laura Camien: How are you doing over there, Cam?

[18:32] Laura Camien: Not so good.

[18:33] Laura Camien: I feel like this podcast is just a torture chamber where I endeavor to make you cry.

[18:40] Yoni: No, it doesn't, it doesn't take that much effort.

[18:43] Laura Camien: But I they're happy tears.

[18:46] Laura Camien: I'm happy that these women are in the world and that are, you know, they're doing what they're doing.

[18:51] Laura Camien: They're doing great work.

[18:53] Laura Camien: But these acts of creative service can take so many forms.

[18:57] Laura Camien: We subscribe to a great monthly e-newsletter.

[19:00] Laura Camien: We've talked about it before.

[19:02] Laura Camien: It's called the A to Z, and it's compiled and issued by a friend of the podcast, Brady Peters.

[19:07] Laura Camien: Hi Brady.

[19:08] Yoni: Hi Brady.

[19:09] Laura Camien: As far as I'm concerned, what Brady Peters is sharing with his newsletter is an act of creativity as service.

[19:16] Laura Camien: It is like a monthly bushel of sparks.

[19:20] Laura Camien: It's beautifully, it's beautiful, the way that it looks.

[19:24] Laura Camien: Just like it's so beautifully thought out.

[19:26] Laura Camien: It's a bushel of sparks coming straight to your inbox every month.

[19:30] Yoni: It's so great.

[19:30] Laura Camien: And you can subscribe by going to the a2z.substack.com.

[19:36] Laura Camien: And I'm going to spell it T-H-E-A-T-O-Z.

[19:41] Laura Camien: Substack.com.

[19:43] Laura Camien: So Brady organizes his stories from A to Z.

[19:47] Laura Camien: And this month was neighbors.

[19:49] Laura Camien: And Brady included the Are you going to start crying?

[19:52] Yoni: I don't know.

[19:53] Yoni: I can't promise anything at this point.

[19:55] Laura Camien: Brady included this story that has been reported by the NPR reporter Laurel Walmsley.

[20:00] Laura Camien: Again, I love that name.

[20:01] Laura Camien: It was about the Savits family.

[20:03] Laura Camien: They had moved to this close-knit, friendly neighborhood in Newton, Mass about three months before having a baby.

[20:09] Laura Camien: So they moved to this neighborhood.

[20:11] Laura Camien: Then Glenda and her husband, Rafi Savitz, welcomed their new daughter, Samantha, into the world.

[20:15] Laura Camien: And a week later, they learned that Samantha was deaf.

[20:19] Laura Camien: Her mom Glenda said she was the first deaf person we had known.

[20:23] Laura Camien: Their little baby, the first deaf person that they had known.

[20:26] Laura Camien: So obviously it was a surprise and a challenge.

[20:28] Laura Camien: We knew right away that we had to get involved in the deaf community, learn about the culture, and start getting fully immersed in American Sign Language.

[20:35] Laura Camien: What the new parents didn't know was that their neighbors in this neighborhood in Newton, Massachusetts, would decide they needed to start learning sign language too.

[20:45] Laura Camien: Oh, a neighbor named Jill McNeil said, we really wanted to communicate with her and play with her.

[20:52] Laura Camien: And since she couldn't learn our language, we wanted to learn hers.

[20:56] Laura Camien: So Jill McNeil and three other neighbors quietly signed up for a local adult education classes in American Sign Language.

[21:03] Laura Camien: She said, We met a teacher there we really loved. We asked if he would come here and teach more neighbors. So that's how it started. According to Glenda, who is the mom, 20 neighbors immediately signed up for the class. The classes have been such a hit that they are now, there are two offerings on two different weeknights, bringing the number of neighbors learning the language to about 40.

[21:27] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. As a result of that neighborly effort, Samantha moves with ease around the cul-de-sac where her family lives, says the neighbor Jill McNeil, we're really enjoying the whole process. Not only learning of ASL, but the learning together, it's made our neighborhood a closer place. To me, that is an amazing act of creativity.

[21:48] Laura Camien: And I just want to take a moment to show you this picture.

[21:52] Susan Blackwell: Of Jill McNeil, that's the neighbor with baby Samantha.

[21:57] Laura Camien: Oh, what a sweetie.

[21:59] Susan Blackwell: What a cutie booty.

[22:01] Laura Camien: What?

[22:03] Susan Blackwell: She's a nug. She's such a nightmare. You know, we call that a little POTUS.

[22:09] Laura Camien: I mean our dog PODUS. Um, so this neighborhood created a closer network that supported this child and expanded this child's sphere of communication. And I have to believe that the connection and the confidence Samantha derives from this experience has the potential to change her life.

[22:28] Laura Camien: Without a doubt. And to change the lives of the people in this neighborhood community. And I would like to say more of that in the world, please.

[22:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And now for something completely different.

[22:38] Laura Camien: Okay. This is from an article on Refinery 29 by Makita Rivas. As of this recording, legal proceedings against Harvey Weinstein are now underway. And one group of women wanted to make it clear precisely what the disgraced film producer is standing trial for.

[22:54] Susan Blackwell: On Friday, donning all black, protesters showed up at the New York City courthouse where Weinstein's long-awaited criminal trial is taking place, and they created a flash mob. Inspired by feminist Chilean group Las Tesis, the flash mob was there to express support for and allyship with the women who have come forward against Weinstein, in addition to the millions of sexual assault survivors across the world.

[23:20] Laura Camien: Based out of Valparaiso, Chile, Las Tesis wrote the song Un Vialador and Tu Camino, which translates to a rapist in your path that quickly became a protest song for anti-sexual assault demonstrations everywhere from New York City to Mexico to France.

[23:40] Susan Blackwell: Camps, have you seen footage of this?

[23:41] Laura Camien: No.

[23:42] Susan Blackwell: It is a full-on chanting, dancing, like choreographed flash mob.

[23:49] Laura Camien: Wow.

[23:50] Susan Blackwell: And it is a marriage of creativity and protest and support and allyship. And I have to tell you, I fucking love it. It's just another way creativity and self-expression could live.

[24:04] Laura Camien: Yes.

[24:05] Susan Blackwell: And I would argue make this world a better place. And it is a way to channel the rage and passion that you feel.

[24:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[24:14] Susan Blackwell: And like physically channel it and physically release it and feel productive about it.

[24:21] Laura Camien: Yes.

[24:22] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[24:23] Laura Camien: Yes.

[24:23] Susan Blackwell: And like you're not just like a low, isolated, scared voice or angry voice.

[24:29] Laura Camien: Or Dave just asking everyone to have this conversation with them.

[24:33] Susan Blackwell: Come together and raise your voice. I love it. Um, so a few years ago, I was hosting and appearing in a benefit for the ACLU slash NYCLU called Broadway Stands Up for Freedom, which I've hosted for many years.

[24:36] Laura Camien: Broadway Stands Up for Freedom is the largest single fundraising event for the NYCLU, and it was started 17 years ago by NYCLU head Donna Lieberman, who I want to interview on this.

[24:56] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[24:56] Laura Camien: That's right. For this reason. So it was founded by Donna, her daughter, Liana Stamper, who is an amazing woman, and Eric Bergen, who some of you may recognize as Blake from Madam Secretary, or he also played Bob Gaudio in the film of Jersey Boys.

[25:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, the event was created to highlight social injustices and civil rights issues through song and spoken word. And the whole event, Cammian, is a marriage of creativity, self-expression, and social activism.

[25:25] Laura Camien: So I'm hosting Broadway Stands Up for Freedom, and I wrote this piece called The Doing Song. And I'd like to share a little bit of it with you now.

[25:33] Susan Blackwell: When we performed it, it had underscoring by um Ryan Field and Garrett and music direction by Hamilton music director Kurt Crowley.

[25:41] Laura Camien: Hey Kurt.

[25:41] Susan Blackwell: And my backup singers were, because this is how I roll, Gavin Creel, Celia Keenan-Bolger, and Taylor Trench. So picture all of that if you will.

[25:51] Laura Camien: So no big deal, you know.

[25:52] Susan Blackwell: So I shared the story. I told the story of Dave. Remember our friend Dave?

[25:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, the one who was freaking out, the one who I thought might be addicted to the conversation about talking around it.

[26:01] Susan Blackwell: Let's pick up there. Now I just met you, Dave, and I don't know you, but if I may be so bold, I'd like to offer you something.

[26:09] Laura Camien: And you can always tell me to go fuck myself, Dave.

[26:11] Susan Blackwell: But I think I know what's going on here. But Dave didn't tell me to fuck off. In fact, his eyes lit up. He wanted to know exactly what I was proposing.

[26:19] Laura Camien: So I shared with him a little formula that my meditation teacher, Emily Fletcher.

[26:24] Susan Blackwell: Hi, hi Emily.

[26:25] Laura Camien: Hi, Emily.

[26:26] Susan Blackwell: Shared with me on November 9th, 2016, when I was freaking the fuck out, like our good friend Dave. It's a four-step formula and it goes like this.

[26:36] Laura Camien: Step one, pick a pressing issue, a need in your world, something that really lights your wick, climate change, black lives matter, people without homes, clean drinking water, injured koalas.

[26:50] Susan Blackwell: If you can, shut your eyes for a second. If you're driving while you listen to this podcast, don't do that. But if you can, shut your eyes for a second. For real, right now. Shut your eyes.

[27:00] Laura Camien: Think about the most pressing need in the world for you.

[27:03] Susan Blackwell: It can be big, it can be small. It doesn't have to impress your neighbor. I know there's a lot, but just for the sake of this exercise, just pick one.

[27:13] Laura Camien: Now at the count of three, open your eyes and say it out loud.

[27:18] Susan Blackwell: Even if you're listening to this podcast on the subway, I challenge you. Say it out loud. Ready? One, two, three.

[27:23] Laura Camien: I didn't, I didn't actually think you were gonna ask me.

[27:25] Susan Blackwell: It's okay.

[27:26] Laura Camien: They said it.

[27:27] Susan Blackwell: They said it out loud. Beautiful.

[27:28] Laura Camien: Beautiful, everybody.

[27:29] Susan Blackwell: Everybody, great.

[27:30] Laura Camien: Okay. Now, step two, and I think this is important.

[27:35] Susan Blackwell: You have to absolve yourself of the responsibility for the millions of other issues on the planet.

[27:40] Laura Camien: Yes, be informed.

[27:42] Susan Blackwell: But if you aren't going to do anything about a particular issue, don't get trapped into thinking you have to have a solution or a reaction to every crisis and every presidential tweet.

[27:54] Laura Camien: It will only spin your wheels and wear you out.

[27:57] Susan Blackwell: Like our good friend freaked out Dave.

[27:59] Laura Camien: I remember him.

[28:00] Susan Blackwell: Step three, ask yourself, what are my unique gifts and talents?

[28:05] Laura Camien: I bet you got a lot of them.

[28:07] Susan Blackwell: Close your eyes again, unless you're operating heavy machinery, and consider. Are you a great woodworker? Are you a gifted speaker? Are you a rocking belly dancer?

[28:17] Susan Blackwell: Again, there are no wrong answers. Get weird, y'all. I know you got a lot of gifts. Just pick one you're really feeling. And at the count of three, I want you to open your eyes. And I want you to say it out loud, even if you're sitting in the waiting room of the dentist. Ready? One, two, three. You just freaked out the person next to you. Magnificent weirdos, you do inspire me. Now let's review. Step one, pick a pressing issue. Step two, absolve yourself of saving the entire world. Step three, define your gifts and talents. And now, step four, which of these gifts do you want to use right now? Not which gifts should you use, but which of these gifts do you really want to use? Yeah. Okay, let's put it all together.

For instance, right now, are you a great organizer who is super passionate about square dancing and animal rights? Then organize the hell out of a square dance where all the proceeds go to an awesome organization that supports the puppies. That puppy square dance would be baller, y'all. Or right now, are you a gifted blogger who's passionate about crocheting and comforting the terminally ill? Then stitch up an Afghan to warm the toes of someone at your local hospice and then blog the shit out of that shit. Inspire others, Mother Pumpkins. Or maybe you're a writer-performer who wants to help somehow, but you're torn. You don't want to be absolved. You want to fight against the Muslim ban and stop and frisk, and you want to fight for transgender voting and reproductive rights.

But how can you possibly tackle it all? Well, maybe you write a spark about it and then share it out at Broadway Stands Up for Freedom concert or on the Sparkfile podcast. Look, everybody, it's happening. It's happening in real time. And this is the magical tricky part. Like I told Dave, there is no one busier or lazier than me. But if you want to change the way you feel right now, you have got to do something. You've got to pick a thing, and then you have to do it. You have to contribute to making change. Making change. This is actually Emily Fletcher. Thank you, Emily's four part process. I mean, it's perfect. For making change. It's perfect.

[30:36] Susan Blackwell: So postscript. There was a post on the Facebook page for the Animal Rescue Collective Craft Guild from a woman named Lisa. She said, I'm feeling a bit down about my contributions to the Australian wildlife. I'm seeing wonderful crafters turning out dozens of beautiful items, and I'm still working on my first pouch because they apparently need the larger ones and they need to be crocheted with a single crochet with a small hook. I can't imagine that the half dozen that I will be able to make will make a difference. And then she had a crying kitty cat emoji. There were about 2,000 responses to Lisa's post. Really? Empathizing with her, cheering her on, telling her that those six things she made will make a difference to six animals and their carers.

And a crafter named Tay Schutz made this point. If the 195,000 members of this group only made one item each, we would still have 195,000 items. You are making six. Obviously, not all members are making the same thing, but six is more than zero. Zero times one hundred and ninety five thousand equals zero. One times one hundred and ninety five thousand equals one hundred and ninety five thousand. With a large group, little numbers make a huge difference. I'm gonna cry again. Yes, that's my spark. Make and shape. Oh my god, that's so good. Oh thanks, Kim, and so true. And what a great way to get a handle on the emotions that run away with us. Yeah, you know, yeah, rein it in. I was seeing pictures of koalas who clearly there was some singing there.

You know, there had been some injury. I was getting so upset and feeling so helpless to contribute. And then I'm like, no, there are ways to contribute. And I want to make this point, and they make the point on this website. If you can't knit or if you can't sew or crochet or knit a Joey pouch, you can contribute money. That's right. If I'm really feeling super bummed, that's an option too. That's right. There are all sorts of ways. But you know what's free? Showing up at the courthouse outside of Harvey Weinstein's trial and joining voices with those women and learning that dance and dancing my rage right out.

[33:18] Laura Camien: Right. So whether you are a millionaire or a zero heir like me, like you, there are ways, there are all sorts of ways to marry what lights you up with issues that also light you up and with talent, skills, making abilities, creativity and self-expression that light you up, braiding it all together into one big, beautiful contribution to making the world a better place.

[33:44] Susan Blackwell: That is absolutely correct. And the line of thinking that says, but I'm just one person or I'm just making six things, is exactly the thing that keeps so many people from taking action. You know, because you just feel insignificant.

[34:02] Laura Camien: That's right. Not true.

[34:05] Susan Blackwell: Not true. Not true. And that's also true. Like in your voice. Brady Peters, one person assembling the ATZ Substack and that neighborhood of 40 people coming together to enrich themselves, but also to contribute to the community that is their neighborhood and the reality for this child.

[34:26] Laura Camien: That's absolutely right. It can take so many different forms, and it really you get to choose. You get the luxury of choosing.

[34:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It's beautiful. Susan love it. I love it. Wanna take a break?

[34:42] Laura Camien: We'll take a break. I'll get a Kleenex.

[34:48] Susan Blackwell: Okay, we're back. But I just want to show you, Camps, and maybe we can post this up on social media. These are some of the very clear instructions that they show you for how to make, for instance, wildlife pouches for little babies and big babies. And exactly like patterning and how to make the liners and what's important about fabric choices and what's important about the way that you seam it, et cetera. But look at those babies. Those sweet, sweet baby. Those baby Joey's need those pouches. Oh my goodness. Possum Joeys. Wombat Joeys. Eastern gray Joeys. So many Joeys. So many Joeys. It's so sad and scary to think about what's going on there. It's so upsetting, but I'm like, then if you are so sparked, if you are so sparked, do something about it.

[35:38] Laura Camien: That's right. Do something about it. Yeah. Pick a thing. Pick a thing and actually do it. I promise you it won't solve the entire world's problems, but I promise you it will change the landscape of your day.

[35:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. To actually agreed. Do something. That's right. Not just think about it, not just talk about it, but do it. Do something.

[35:56] Laura Camien: Yeah. Suze. That's a good spark.

[36:02] Susan Blackwell: That's a really good spark. What you got for me?

[36:04] Laura Camien: Well, my spark might have some strange crossover.

[36:08] Susan Blackwell: Crossover.

[36:09] Laura Camien: Really? I'm not sure if it's good or not, but we're gonna find out.

[36:13] Susan Blackwell: We'll see.

[36:14] Laura Camien: No, no, no. Not that my spark isn't good, but that the cover.

[36:17] Susan Blackwell: It might be awkward.

[36:18] Laura Camien: I'm not sure, but we're gonna find out.

[36:21] Susan Blackwell: Is it disparaging against Joey's? Baby Joeys.

[36:24] Laura Camien: It's about not making change.

[36:26] Susan Blackwell: No, um, it's not just lies in the your spark flies in the face of my spark.

[36:31] Laura Camien: Of activism, it's anti-activism.

[36:34] Susan Blackwell: I'm kidding, it's not. Did you say craftivism during the have we talked about craftivism?

[36:40] Laura Camien: I don't think we've talked about it.

[36:41] Susan Blackwell: I think I said it somewhere.

[36:42] Laura Camien: I feel like you said it to me recently, and it crafted it.

[36:44] Susan Blackwell: Was it during the badass cross stitch?

[36:48] Laura Camien: Craftivism?

[36:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes, because she calls herself a craft.

[36:50] Laura Camien: A crafti, which delighted me.

[36:52] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Anybody who engages with that spark I just shared is also.

[36:55] Laura Camien: Oh, they are craftivists.

[36:57] Susan Blackwell: There's some craftivists.

[36:58] Laura Camien: I think knitted Barbara Demerist of Knitted Knockers, craft.

[37:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[37:03] Laura Camien: A hundred percent.

[37:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Proud, proud, proud title.

[37:06] Laura Camien: When I was take that. When I was at the McDowell with Hunter Bell, we were in residency there writing what would become now hear this. And there was a wonderful radical activist knitter who would create these pieces of art that were also, you know, political statements.

[37:25] Susan Blackwell: And so I remember they would knit or crochet. I can't remember what their what if they were, but they would make these pieces of, for instance, pink yarn barbed wire, and then they would take that to like if there was a protest somewhere, they would wrap it around the fence. You know, they just like these very strong, very cool, like amazing, thoughtful pieces of political protest through yarn craft.

[37:56] Laura Camien: It was amazing.

[37:57] Susan Blackwell: Which is like old school crafts and abilities meeting new world problems that needs to be solved.

[38:08] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's pretty hot.

[38:09] Susan Blackwell: Good stuff.

[38:09] Laura Camien: Good stuff, good stuff.

[38:10] Susan Blackwell: Like real good stuff. What you got for me?

[38:13] Laura Camien: Um, have you ever watched that TV show Alone?

[38:16] Susan Blackwell: I don't know what that is.

[38:18] Laura Camien: I'm obsessed with this show.

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: What is it?

[38:21] Laura Camien: Uh first let me tell you that genuinely I would go so far as to say that.

[38:27] Susan Blackwell: Oh, nerd.

[38:28] Laura Camien: Um, but I think it illustrates one of the reasons why TV was invented, like to educate and entertain.

[38:34] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[38:35] Laura Camien: I mean, that's what I think TV is good for, but obviously we use it for other things.

[38:40] Susan Blackwell: But I think it's to educate and to entertain, to show you things that you can't personally do so that you might learn from other people's experiences.

[38:48] Laura Camien: I mean, there's so much like crap reality TV programming, but to me, this is one huge exception to that rule.

[38:55] Susan Blackwell: So the TV show Alone is on the History Channel.

[38:58] Laura Camien: Okay.

[38:59] Susan Blackwell: They're on season seven.

[39:01] Laura Camien: I don't know when that's gonna be.

[39:03] Susan Blackwell: I don't have the history channel.

[39:05] Laura Camien: I've never heard of this.

[39:07] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Amazing.

[39:08] Laura Camien: So but it's something existing in the world and it's on season seven.

[39:08] Susan Blackwell: It's on season seven.

[39:12] Laura Camien: And I've never heard of it.

[39:13] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's because there's a lot of fucking TV channels.

[39:16] Laura Camien: I know.

[39:16] Susan Blackwell: There's a lot of content.

[39:18] Laura Camien: I know, and I'm either happy or sad that I'm kind of out of touch with it because I wish I could just find a way to generate like just the smart, cool stuff into one place, but there isn't really one channel or one, you know what I mean? Like every place is so full of like all of the stuff.

[39:36] Susan Blackwell: But anyway, so the TV show Alone is on the History Channel, they're on season seven. I don't know when that's going to air. I mean, technically, like they haven't announced that there is a season seven, but all signs are indicating that they're moving forward with the production of season seven.

[39:53] Laura Camien: So it's just top secret, but I believe it's gonna happen.

[39:57] Susan Blackwell: So the idea of the show is that a group of individuals are brought to a remote location in the wilderness.

[40:04] Laura Camien: Is it a reality show?

[40:05] Susan Blackwell: It is a reality show.

[40:06] Laura Camien: Okay, it is.

[40:08] Susan Blackwell: They each have their own space, and they're dropped literally dropped off, either by boat or helicopter, in the wilderness.

[40:17] Laura Camien: They have no contact with other human beings.

[40:20] Susan Blackwell: So they're like at least 20 miles apart from each other, you know.

[40:24] Laura Camien: Okay.

[40:24] Susan Blackwell: And they have to survive in the wilderness, and that's all. There's no cameraman with them.

[40:29] Laura Camien: So they're like, at least 20 miles apart from each other, you know.

[40:32] Susan Blackwell: They film, they document themselves with multiple cameras they have to take care of throughout the show.

[40:38] Laura Camien: They have one big job.

[40:41] Susan Blackwell: It is. Yeah. Like, no joke, people have injured themselves trying to deal with their camera, and then you know, they're alone. They have one lifeline, like a phone that they can use to call the producers.

[40:54] Laura Camien: If they call though, they're tapping out.

[40:57] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[40:58] Laura Camien: So it's not a call with a hey, I have a question.

[41:01] Susan Blackwell: No.

[41:02] Laura Camien: Can I have some avocado toast delivered?

[41:04] Susan Blackwell: No.

[41:05] Laura Camien: No. You call and someone will come and get you and you're done.

[41:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, so besides that, like a medical team comes and checks on them, I think every two to three weeks.

[41:17] Laura Camien: I don't know exactly what the interval is.

[41:19] Susan Blackwell: Got it.

[41:20] Laura Camien: But the contestants know when that is.

[41:22] Susan Blackwell: So, like sometimes they'll say, like, tomorrow's the day, like the medical team will come tomorrow, you know.

[41:27] Laura Camien: So they know when it is, but I'm not exactly sure or clear on like what the interval is.

[41:32] Susan Blackwell: Got it.

[41:33] Laura Camien: Um, but they at these intervals they get checked by a medical team.

[41:39] Susan Blackwell: And if they don't pass the medical exam, they're tapping out, they get tapped out, not by choice.

[41:44] Laura Camien: People have broken down and cried, like, I can stay longer, I can stay longer.

[41:49] Susan Blackwell: And they're like, No, you can't.

[41:50] Laura Camien: And I'm not sure, like, would they have would they be yanked because of exposure or malnutrition or lack of water for they've lost too much weight.

[42:01] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[42:01] Laura Camien: Um, so they're not getting enough sustenance.

[42:04] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[42:05] Laura Camien: Um, in some cases, not to be too graphic, but people who like haven't had a bowel movement in a few weeks because they're not getting enough fiber, like they check on these things because they're like, obviously, we don't want you to do permanent damage to your body by being here.

[42:23] Susan Blackwell: But that's the level of consequence.

[42:26] Laura Camien: Like, people are they're truly have to survive in the woods.

[42:30] Susan Blackwell: Why do people want to do this?

[42:32] Laura Camien: Okay, well, we'll get into that.

[42:34] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[42:35] Laura Camien: But the goal is I'm so there is nobody lazier or busier than like that's right.

[42:42] Susan Blackwell: You wouldn't be out there, but and neither would I, but there's a certain type of personality that might want this challenge.

[42:49] Laura Camien: I mean, throughout time, yes, a man has been fascinated with self-reliance.

[42:54] Susan Blackwell: I enjoy creature comforts, but I am fascinated by the people who can do it.

[43:01] Laura Camien: I'm gonna stop interrupting you because I want to know more.

[43:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and I just am getting the way.

[43:06] Laura Camien: Okay, I'm gonna tell you.

[43:07] Susan Blackwell: Okay, I'm gonna tell you more.

[43:08] Laura Camien: I'm so prepared to tell you more.

[43:10] Susan Blackwell: Um so the goal is to survive as long as possible.

[43:13] Laura Camien: Okay, and that's it.

[43:15] Susan Blackwell: God, this is crazy, Camien.

[43:17] Laura Camien: Survive as long as possible in the wilderness.

[43:20] Susan Blackwell: In it without like if they can get if they're like, I'm in month three, I'm in month seven, that they can stay out there, and they don't know how many people are left.

[43:30] Laura Camien: Is it just down to me and someone else?

[43:31] Susan Blackwell: Is it are they?

[43:32] Laura Camien: Is it a competition?

[43:34] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I'm getting to that.

[43:36] Laura Camien: The last man or woman standing gets $500,000.

[43:40] Susan Blackwell: Like it's a competition.

[43:41] Laura Camien: You have to make it as long as possible.

[43:44] Susan Blackwell: And you have no idea if the competition, if the Hunger Games, if they're still if you are nearing you don't but no one is trying to like I don't know when's trying to assassinate you, but you'd have no idea how your competitors are doing.

[44:00] Susan Blackwell: You have to assume they're doing well.

[44:02] Laura Camien: Do you know at the outset how many competitors there are?

[44:06] Susan Blackwell: You do.

[44:06] Laura Camien: Okay.

[44:06] Susan Blackwell: And you meet them, and so everyone knows each other, but you're then you're completely and entirely on your own.

[44:12] Laura Camien: So it might be in the back of your mind that, like, oh, well, there's amazing.

[44:17] Susan Blackwell: It's so so amazing.

[44:19] Laura Camien: But first of all, let me tell you um the locations.

[44:23] Susan Blackwell: The first few seasons were Vancouver Island, which is remote as fuck.

[44:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:29] Susan Blackwell: Excuse me.

[44:30] Laura Camien: It's really remote.

[44:32] Susan Blackwell: All of a sudden I want to be polite.

[44:34] Laura Camien: It's a really remote island.

[44:37] Susan Blackwell: Um it's fucking cold.

[44:43] Laura Camien: Yes.

[44:44] Susan Blackwell: Um, Patagonia, Northern Mongolia, they have like they're super super remote, and they each have their own challenges.

[44:54] Laura Camien: Um, so you obviously have to study where you're going.

[44:57] Susan Blackwell: Like baked into the and do you know where you're going?

[45:00] Laura Camien: Like if your season is gonna be uh uh Patagonia or whatever.

[45:05] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[45:05] Laura Camien: You study up on it and you learn what natural proteins are.

[45:11] Susan Blackwell: What animals might be edible, a edible or looking for me exactly who might eat me.

[45:20] Laura Camien: Um so okay, so first of all, those those locations, and they literally drop them off, give them their cameras, and see you later.

[45:29] Susan Blackwell: So they're each allowed to bring 10 items, and there are long lists of things that you can choose from.

[45:37] Laura Camien: So the dynamic there is fascinating because you might, you know, they cut when they edit the shows, they cut in between people, and you'd be like, here's Susan, you know, at the lake trying to get fish.

[45:48] Susan Blackwell: She did not choose to bring a whatever knife, you know, or whatever.

[45:54] Laura Camien: Um they can choose from, you know, everything a shovel, a carabiner, a flashlight, a sewing kit, a hunting knife, wire to set traps, you know, like, but you have to choose carefully.

[46:10] Susan Blackwell: And I would think six seasons in, people can learn from prior seasons.

[46:15] Laura Camien: You would think, but it is always surprising.

[46:18] Susan Blackwell: There'll be someone who like, I didn't choose to bring floral arrangement.

[46:23] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:24] Susan Blackwell: Because I've never had a problem lighting a fire.

[46:26] Laura Camien: And like, but you've also never been in Mongolia, Patagonia, like trying to start a fire.

[46:32] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[46:33] Laura Camien: Um during the wet season.

[46:35] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[46:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:36] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[46:37] Laura Camien: So um, so you have to choose carefully, and it is always fascinating.

[46:40] Susan Blackwell: Or someone might be like, I chose a bow and arrow because I'm really good with it.

[46:44] Laura Camien: Someone else is like, I chose fishing wire because I'm gonna make fishing nets and I'm just gonna fish, and that's gonna be my thing.

[46:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[46:54] Laura Camien: Um, but you you learn first of all or are reminded of the essentials of human life food, water, shelter, heat, shelter, heat, you know.

[47:09] Susan Blackwell: So um anyway, it's amazing to see what people choose to bring.

[47:14] Laura Camien: Of course, they have to study the plant life.

[47:16] Susan Blackwell: We talked about, the local animals, figure out what tools would be most useful to them based on those things.

[47:22] Laura Camien: They're allowed to build any other tools that they need out of anything they find.

[47:26] Susan Blackwell: So if they if something like washes up in the lake, um, like one one season someone found like an old milk carton and used it like as a shovel, use it for a million purposes.

[47:40] Laura Camien: Super, super berry water.

[47:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:42] Laura Camien: So in terms of like creativity, you watch and see like what they do with so little.

[47:48] Susan Blackwell: How precious those like an old milk carton that washes up on the shore, how precious that becomes.

[47:53] Laura Camien: Every, every, every item.

[47:55] Susan Blackwell: And it's fascinating.

[47:57] Laura Camien: So first thing they all have to do is survey the land and figure out like where they're gonna build their shelter.

[48:03] Susan Blackwell: Can I just tell you?

[48:04] Laura Camien: I'm sitting here enwrapped.

[48:07] Susan Blackwell: I'm just like really, because I feel like you're like, what's this show?

[48:12] Laura Camien: No, I am with you and I'm taking a mental journey.

[48:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[48:16] Laura Camien: Again, I've never seen it, so it's all through your report.

[48:19] Susan Blackwell: And I'm just like taking a mental journey of what this looks like, what it would be like to be on the inside of it.

[48:25] Laura Camien: I hope I'm doing it justice.

[48:26] Susan Blackwell: But basically, you're doing great.

[48:28] Laura Camien: Thanks.

[48:29] Susan Blackwell: Thanks.

[48:29] Laura Camien: Thanks because I love the show.

[48:31] Susan Blackwell: Um, but it so they're all on Vancouver Island, for example, but you still get different situations.

[48:41] Laura Camien: Someone else, someone might be dropped off where there's a field with berries in it within walking distance.

[48:49] Susan Blackwell: And someone else might be like, I'm right here by this stream, and I can catch fish all day long.

[48:56] Laura Camien: You know, like there are different variables that they can't control.

[49:00] Susan Blackwell: So they I think they try to make the circumstances as equal as possible.

[49:04] Laura Camien: Yeah, it'd be hard though, because you can see how the berry person, the proximity to the berry person versus fish proximity person could, those calories could make the difference for the color.

[49:15] Susan Blackwell: It could totally make the calories.

[49:17] Laura Camien: Now all of them do, I think, from what I can tell, they've all had access to water, but they have to so they have to figure it out.

[49:24] Susan Blackwell: So they get there, they get dropped off, and they're like, where is the water?

[49:28] Laura Camien: Where will my shelter be safest?

[49:31] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[49:32] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:32] Susan Blackwell: If you see bear tracks or poop from animal yeah, scat, you're like, okay, this piece of land is already claimed by someone.

[49:43] Laura Camien: Not so good.

[49:44] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I'll go in this game.

[49:46] Laura Camien: Um, so like some of them will set up a sh a temporary shelter for like the first couple of nights, and that's where they're figuring out like what their situation is.

[49:55] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[49:56] Laura Camien: But in terms of creativity, it's phenomenal because you see people building different some people build entire log cabins over the course of it.

[50:06] Susan Blackwell: Oh fucking log cabins.

[50:08] Laura Camien: So those people are there for a long time.

[50:10] Susan Blackwell: Multi-layer fireplaces so that like the fire doesn't catch their cabin on fire, um, so that they can dry their clothes over, like they're incredible.

[50:20] Laura Camien: Those are people, those people have mad skills, and also they came to win.

[50:20] Susan Blackwell: They came to win.

[50:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:25] Susan Blackwell: And then other people set up like under a tarp and then maybe try to keep it warm, you know, with branches and things around it.

[50:34] Laura Camien: And I'm always like putting my money on cabin.

[50:36] Susan Blackwell: Um but it is interesting because different situations, people end up winning.

[50:41] Laura Camien: That you're just sort of like, I can't believe that little shelter made it the whole way.

[50:45] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[50:46] Laura Camien: But um, like you said, the people who compete are pretty damned experienced and impressive.

[50:54] Susan Blackwell: They're like survivalists, disaster preparedness trainers, preppers, preppers, primitive technology instructors, Navy SEALs, homesteaders, hunting guides.

[51:07] Laura Camien: Like these are people who are quite familiar with.

[51:11] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes you'll see someone who's like an expert in plants.

[51:15] Laura Camien: And they'll go pretty far.

[51:17] Susan Blackwell: Like one season, this woman like cut her leg and she knew like how to make a paste out of certain plants.

[51:24] Laura Camien: And like games.

[51:25] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[51:26] Laura Camien: And she she survived.

[51:28] Susan Blackwell: Like it's truly amazing.

[51:31] Laura Camien: Like, this isn't about like, let's see how long Laura and Susan can make it in the forest.

[51:36] Susan Blackwell: Like it's when I say like this is TV programming in a smart way.

[51:41] Laura Camien: That's what I mean.

[51:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[51:43] Laura Camien: The objective is not to like, oh, it'd be so fun to watch people flounder and fight with each other and freak out.

[51:49] Susan Blackwell: Not naked and afraid.

[51:50] Laura Camien: It is not naked and afraid.

[51:52] Susan Blackwell: This is prepared people.

[51:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:55] Susan Blackwell: But this shows you as prepared as you are, who's really in charge.

[52:00] Laura Camien: And that would be nature.

[52:01] Susan Blackwell: The wilderness, yeah.

[52:02] Laura Camien: The wilderness is in charge, right?

[52:04] Susan Blackwell: So there's no planning that you can like the elements, the elements.

[52:10] Laura Camien: This is why the show is so good.

[52:12] Susan Blackwell: Like you can't get around the weather.

[52:14] Laura Camien: Like the weather will change with the seasons, obviously.

[52:16] Susan Blackwell: So maybe you're watching, and for the first two weeks, like Susan's been getting a ton of fish on the lake, and she's doing just great.

[52:23] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:23] Susan Blackwell: Now the lake is frozen over.

[52:26] Laura Camien: And what is Susan gonna do now?

[52:28] Susan Blackwell: She's either stored enough food or because she didn't get any ice saw.

[52:32] Laura Camien: She didn't select that as one of her.

[52:36] Susan Blackwell: Um, or maybe a storm destroys your housing or rain gets everything wet, and you can't get another fire going.

[52:36] Laura Camien: And you can't get dry.

[52:44] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[52:45] Laura Camien: And you can't predict animals either.

[52:47] Susan Blackwell: So last year.

[52:48] Laura Camien: You can't predict animals either, is the worst sentence ever uttered.

[52:52] Susan Blackwell: So last year a man killed a single moose.

[52:56] Laura Camien: And they're also very conscientious.

[52:59] Susan Blackwell: Like I don't want to trigger anyone in terms of you know animals, but it's like A, the animals have equal opportunity to eat the human as much as the human does.

[53:10] Laura Camien: Um, but they're all very, very respectful.

[53:12] Susan Blackwell: And most of them are really clear that, like, I mean, they would hope to like it would be a dream come true to have an abundance of animals.

[53:20] Laura Camien: Um if you turn down on moose, they're probably using every part of the case.

[53:26] Susan Blackwell: So that's what I was gonna say.

[53:27] Laura Camien: He was so thrilled he got a moose with a bow and arrow.

[53:31] Susan Blackwell: He got himself, it was from far away, he got himself there, and keeping in mind, so he shoots it from far away.

[53:39] Laura Camien: Other animals are going to say, Hey, that looks good to me.

[53:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so he's got to get to that moose meat um quickly and by sundown get back to his place.

[53:51] Laura Camien: But so he he knew how to preserve the meat, which was amazing, and he did, and he preserved the fat separately.

[54:00] Susan Blackwell: Um he had found a can fascinatingly amazing.

[54:03] Laura Camien: So you had a little jar of like lard, and he used, like you said, he lose he used every bit.

[54:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, um, it was incredibly respectful, and they didn't like it wasn't explicit or anything, but it's really, really amazing.

[54:16] Laura Camien: And you just thought, like, he is set, he's gonna coast.

[54:21] Susan Blackwell: Until he kept losing weight and more weight and more weight.

[54:28] Laura Camien: It turns out, moose meat is so lean.

[54:32] Susan Blackwell: You can eat it every single day and still not get get enough substance.

[54:38] Laura Camien: And then keto diet, yeah.

[54:40] Susan Blackwell: A badger stole his little can of fat.

[54:45] Laura Camien: So he wasn't getting enough fat in his diet.

[54:49] Susan Blackwell: Um so anyway, interesting.

[54:52] Laura Camien: He also then eventually killed that badger.

[54:55] Susan Blackwell: He went out fucking badger at night, at night alone with just like a headlamp.

[55:02] Laura Camien: And a bow and arrow.

[55:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[55:05] Laura Camien: I think he had a hatchet.

[55:06] Susan Blackwell: I don't want to get graphic, but oh my god.

[55:09] Laura Camien: That was one of the more brutal things.

[55:11] Susan Blackwell: Like you typically don't see that.

[55:13] Laura Camien: But it's more it's more often that you and they didn't show, like, they don't show them.

[55:19] Susan Blackwell: But um, it's more often that you see people like in their tent and a bear is circling it.

[55:27] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[55:27] Susan Blackwell: And the next morning they're like, I think I'm done.

[55:31] Laura Camien: I think I'm tapping out.

[55:32] Susan Blackwell: I'm tapping out.

[55:33] Laura Camien: Um, just side spark before we lose it.

[55:35] Susan Blackwell: I just uh spark that I have that I want to make sure is captured in perpetuity on this recording is that I think a great nickname would be moose meat.

[55:47] Laura Camien: Awesome.

[55:48] Susan Blackwell: Hey, moose meat, hey moose meat.

[55:53] Laura Camien: Awesome.

[55:54] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, so the animals are unpredictable, unbelievable.

[55:59] Laura Camien: You see people like accidentally cut themselves with their knife, they're done.

[56:04] Susan Blackwell: They have to tap out.

[56:05] Laura Camien: What are you gonna do?

[56:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[56:06] Laura Camien: Um, oh my gosh.

[56:08] Susan Blackwell: So do you know how quickly, like, if they summoned, if they were like, I'm tapping out, I'm tapping out that's the other thing.

[56:14] Laura Camien: How quickly can they get retrieved?

[56:16] Susan Blackwell: Not so quickly.

[56:17] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[56:18] Susan Blackwell: So you gotta think ahead like that.

[56:20] Laura Camien: If you're like spoiler, has anybody died on that?

[56:22] Susan Blackwell: No one's died.

[56:22] Laura Camien: Okay, great.

[56:23] Susan Blackwell: No one's died.

[56:23] Laura Camien: Okay, good.

[56:24] Susan Blackwell: No, thankfully.

[56:26] Laura Camien: But hypothermia, yeah if you could fall into frozen lake which someone has like fell in the frozen lake, so dangerous got themselves out.

[56:36] Laura Camien: They, it was at night, and so he shivered through the night and he knew every bit of what hypothermia could do to your body. So he sat there on camera assessing. Yeah, they came, they couldn't get him at night, so they were like, 'We will be there first that you know at sunrise.' Oh my god. So the stakes are high. Am I gonna get a rose or not? The stakes are pretty damn high, and the intelligence, the problem solving, and frankly, the creativity that they have to use to survive in the wilderness. So some of them tap out because they know they're not getting enough food, or they injure themselves, or they get spooked by animals. Um, people have accidentally burned down their shelter. Oh no, they've fallen in a freezing cold lake. Um, there's no coming back from some of that. So you have to tap out. But the thing that truly amazes me is the number of people who tap out because they cannot take the time alone.

[57:49] Susan Blackwell: That amazes you.

[57:50] Laura Camien: That does not surprise me at all. As you were talking, you said that thing about people sitting in their shelters, and you finished the sentence by saying, like with a bear circling, and that's when they tap out. I thought you were gonna say just sitting there in their shelters, sitting with their own thoughts, and they were like, that's worse than a bear circling my shelter.

[58:11] Susan Blackwell: This is, that's exactly right. And I can't like, it's hard to believe because when you watch them, these are some of the people who are like, cool. So I'm building a log cabin. I'm gonna upgrade the fireplace that I made myself. Um, I'm building an outhouse. I'm building um a workout center for me to like work out in the mornings.

[58:37] Laura Camien: Really?

[58:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, one guy did, but it's actually earn more calories, that's crazy.

[58:41] Laura Camien: That's exactly why most people don't do that because they're like mostly conservative.

[58:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you want to conserve your energy and your calories, but it would give you something to do to fill the time.

[58:52] Laura Camien: That's exactly right. So here are these people who like make their own essentially like small town, uh-huh, you know. Um, and you just population one.

[59:01] Susan Blackwell: Population one, they're doing great. And then they just can't stop thinking about their family or their own thoughts are driving them crazy, or a spaghetti dinner.

[59:11] Laura Camien: And a spaghetti dinner, they can't take the loneliness and they tap out.

[59:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I don't know. I just think I wouldn't last six hours.

[59:20] Laura Camien: I would not last past sundown. It also reminds me of the conversation we had during the cat dancers spark, which is great documentary filmmaking, and that can live as a film, it can live as a TV show, clearly, is like a bath sphere where we get to in the warmth, dryness, and safety, climb in the spaghetti dinner while eating, sitting on the couch.

[59:41] Susan Blackwell: There's a couch in my bath sphere, eating our spaghetti dinner. And we get to be immersed in this experience, this adventure.

[59:50] Laura Camien: That's right. These crazy or become face to face with a bear to understand what that experience in the wilderness.

[1:00:00] Susan Blackwell: And I think that to me it's fascinating. And it sounds like it's done in a way. If you're saying that you feel like this is what television was built for, that it must be done. I cannot wait to see this project. I mean, I really built it up, but to me, I think it's to learn reflection questions.

[1:00:19] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:00:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So that got me thinking about Henry David Thoreau.

[1:00:23] Laura Camien: Oh, sure.

[1:00:23] Susan Blackwell: So self-reliance, right? The things the soul needs don't cost a thing. It's minimalism. This is like self-reliance as a spiritual quest. That's like his take on it. And this show made me realize how woefully ill-prepared I am for any kind of natural disaster.

[1:00:40] Laura Camien: I'm with you.

[1:00:41] Susan Blackwell: Um, any kind of disaster, basically. And if I had to rely on myself alone, I would be completely screwed. I'm not proud of this. Like it just has me thinking about self-reliance. Like this show is like, hmm. So little little sidebar into history. 1841, Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote the essay titled Self Reliance, where he outlined the importance of living a life built by oneself. Follow your own thoughts and your own opinions, not the religion of the times. And he inspired his friend Henry David Thoreau to live alone in the woods for more than two years in a house he built with his own hands. And while he was there, he wrote the book Walden. Any of this like sound familiar?

[1:01:25] Laura Camien: Sure.

[1:01:26] Susan Blackwell: So he talks about the importance of living independently, living on his own, off the land, building and creating with his hands. He believes people spend too much time trying to keep up with others in lifestyle, clothing, opinions, et cetera.

[1:01:39] Laura Camien: Yes, yeah.

[1:01:39] Susan Blackwell: Consuming. And he believes that it's essential that you listen to your own thoughts, your own opinions before anyone else's. About spending time alone, he said, I find it wholesome to be alone the greater part of the time. To be in company, even with the best, is soon wearisome and dissipating. I love to be alone. I never found the companion that was so companionable as solitude.

[1:02:07] Laura Camien: He should have been.

[1:02:10] Susan Blackwell: And I also think he would have been a great contestant on Alone.

[1:02:14] Laura Camien: Alone, right?

[1:02:16] Susan Blackwell: Right. So I often love to romanticize this notion, obviously, of living off the land in the woods. I don't think I'm alone in that. Um, I love the idea of it. Emerson and Thoreau are all about self-reliance as a spiritual quest. And I long for that.

[1:02:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:02:32] Susan Blackwell: Obviously, not badly enough to do it. Um, but the idea of it.

[1:02:37] Laura Camien: Yeah, but we've had conversations about just how long we we'd be able to go, like without our telephone, like a retreat, maybe.

[1:02:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I could maybe go three days, maybe.

[1:02:49] Laura Camien: Uh, you know, like a few days.

[1:02:51] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah. Um, I think I would do okay with that, but I would want a pen and paper. That's the other thing. I watch this and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I would go crazy without a pen and paper there.

[1:03:02] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:03:02] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes.

[1:03:03] Laura Camien: But this idea of being alone, like being maddening to people really interests me.

[1:03:10] Susan Blackwell: I think I would go mad, but then again, you just never know. I don't know, Cam. I mean, I think, I mean, we're both introverts, but I don't know.

[1:03:22] Laura Camien: But that's a lot of aloneness, right?

[1:03:23] Susan Blackwell: It's a lot of aloneness.

[1:03:25] Laura Camien: And it does it, I uh it reminds me of when do you remember some years back when power below 34th Street was knocked out by the hurricane hurricane?

[1:03:38] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[1:03:39] Laura Camien: And I lived below. And so power was off for I'm gonna say a week. And before the hurricane came, I packed my refrigerator with food and ice. It was packed out with ice, so it was like yeah, I pre made the food ready. So it would keep, I was ready to go.

[1:04:01] Susan Blackwell: That's preparedness right there.

[1:04:02] Laura Camien: I was by myself and I was like, I have to like batten down the motherfucking hatches and get ready for this. And I did. And then the power was out. I was alone, no cell phone, no computer. It was one of the times in my adult life when I have been, I mean, I was still in a city. Yeah, you could go. But there was a lot of I don't want to say devastation, but there was a lot of like down power lines, down trees in Manhattan. You couldn't call for delivery.

[1:04:32] Susan Blackwell: Oh, God, no.

[1:04:33] Laura Camien: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, none of that. But this is the closest that I have come to this aloneness. And I will tell you, after the sun sets and there's not uh daylight coming through the windows anymore, read even by candlelight, reading by lantern, candlelight, whatever, becomes very difficult. And I would go to bed extremely early because I was so bored and so alone and so cut off and so isolated. And it was even for an introvert, it was tough.

[1:05:09] Susan Blackwell: Nothing romantic about it.

[1:05:10] Laura Camien: I toughed it out for quite a while. And then I remember reaching out to um Heidi Blick and staff who lived above 34th Street and I was like, can I please come and just sleep on your couch?

[1:05:22] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[1:05:22] Laura Camien: In order to um have some light and some companionship.

[1:05:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And like Charlie and some cell phone contacts.

[1:05:31] Laura Camien: Who could blame you for that?

[1:05:32] Susan Blackwell: It was intense. Who could blame you?

[1:05:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:05:34] Susan Blackwell: But I think like in terms of self-reliance, like the way the world is going now, it feels like being self-reliant is more of a necessity, obviously, than a romantic idea. Like the possibility, like whether you believe that foreign governments are hacking into our banking systems and we're gonna wake up one day, you know, zeroed out and penniless, uh back on the barter system, farming our own lands, like if you think that, or if you're watching the weather patterns and climate change and are convinced that nature's gonna deliver a whopping blow, making us all dependent on our survival skills. Like either way, you know, the preppers seem to me a whereas I once thought that was a bit crazy.

[1:06:19] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[1:06:20] Laura Camien: It they to me seemed to be now you're like, who do I know that I can be friend who's a prepper wise, wise, wise uh people. And like I did think this was a ridiculous idea uh uh years ago, but not so in the past few years I've seen tornadoes in Brooklyn. A hurricane hits New York City. I mean, I remember a few years ago CNN ran a documentary about the floods caused by Hurricane Katrina.

[1:06:44] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[1:06:45] Laura Camien: It was like the five year anniversary of the flood of the storm. So I think of course they had used all the news footage in those intervening years. Um but so on the fifth anniversary they put together a documentary that was using all of footage from people who had stayed like all their viewers footage like sent in um the people who had stayed to quote ride it out in New Orleans and um the pictures and the video that they had taken and it was so powerful.

[1:07:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:07:17] Laura Camien: What they talked about in the documentary that I will never forget um I actually have a short film like a draft of a short film um sparked by this. What they talked about was people's homes being flooded and they of course they would go to a higher floor and a higher floor and then had to like out the window and up onto their own roof.

[1:07:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[1:07:41] Laura Camien: But they spoke about the many, many people who were not strong enough to pull themselves out.

[1:07:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh no not strong enough to lift their own body weight.

[1:07:54] Laura Camien: And that became a goal in my mind. Always be able to lift your own body weight.

[1:07:58] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[1:07:59] Laura Camien: But like literally parents with kids and how do you get them oh my up and out.

[1:08:08] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[1:08:08] Laura Camien: Um and this is another form of like self-reliance right of being strong enough and and figuring out like how will you spark is motivating me. So they showed like a neighborhood where four young men, they were maybe 20 years old, they had a canoe and they went around trying to save all the people who were sitting up on their yeah roofs. Um, but they could only do one person at a time.

[1:08:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:08:32] Laura Camien: So one person in a canoe, they walk that canoe, you know, 10 miles down and then come back with it to save one more person.

[1:08:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:08:43] Laura Camien: I mean, it was horrifying, truly horrifying. Like I'm, I'm sure I'm just tip of the iceberg on just how bad uh everything was. But to me, that was scary as shit to think about like one major storm.

[1:09:02] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:09:03] Laura Camien: So we don't know how to like grow things, find things, live off the land without help from our phones or without calling for help. And this kind of is turning into a dark spark. And I didn't mean it to, but it is this concept of self-reliance. So I think you can see why I am so enthralled by these people who can live.

[1:09:28] Susan Blackwell: I think it's very empowering to know that you're capable.

[1:09:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:09:32] Susan Blackwell: Even though those variables we talked about from the weather to animals, like there are variables outside of your control that could take you down and you wouldn't be able to survive. Um that's that's like in a best case scenario where you know how to build your own home and start a fire and make your own food, grow your own food, or catch your own food. There's still variables that you can't control.

[1:09:57] Laura Camien: And I'm like, I'm not even at the build your own fire.

[1:10:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:10:03] Laura Camien: Phase, right?

[1:10:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So what do we make of all this?

[1:10:07] Laura Camien: What do we make of it, Camps?

[1:10:08] Susan Blackwell: Well, I think, first of all, there's a reason why man versus nature is such a powerful storytelling genre.

[1:10:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:10:16] Susan Blackwell: I mean, because of exactly that. There are variables. Tale as old as time. They're just things you can't control, and Mother Nature is larger than us all.

[1:10:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:10:28] Susan Blackwell: You know. So I think there's an endless amounts of sparks in the exploration of man versus nature. But I also think is ripe for a powerful message about climate change, like finding a way to affect social change with a powerful story of survival steeped in like the very real facts of climate change.

[1:10:49] Laura Camien: Yeah, I don't know what that is, but um I do think that there's a there's a lot there. You're onto a spark there.

[1:10:56] Susan Blackwell: Um, I also think there's a story to be told about Thoreau and Emerson and their like their belief in self-reliance and their friendship. I was taught about each one of them separately, like in school. Um, but I was unaware of how deep their influence was on each other and other people at the time. They were kind of an odd couple, like needling each other. Thoreau was born into a blue-collar family and wanted to earn Emerson's respect. He was really passionate and empathetic. And Emerson was like uber intellectual and ran with a bit of a snobby crowd. Um, but in the end, like they enjoyed their continual sparring, they were always arguing, but happy about it. I also didn't know that Thoreau took a really strong stance against slavery. I had no idea.

[1:11:40] Laura Camien: He believed side spark.

[1:11:43] Susan Blackwell: He believed in the idea that America like was a continuing revolution, but he was appalled and couldn't believe that we were living in a world where his freedom was celebrated, but millions of people were captive as slaves. Um, so he felt betrayed by the country because they hadn't yet abolished slavery. And I don't think people learn about Thoreau as much as they like I don't think they learn that detail about him as much as they learn about yeah, he went into the woods and he builds a cabin. And you know, um, you could try and experiment, you could head into the woods yourself, like maybe just a glamping trip, see what 12 hours of silence might do to your mind.

[1:12:27] Laura Camien: That reminds me of the spark that we did about how to break up with your cell phone.

[1:12:31] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And where that writer from the New York Times kind of took one for the team and did just that.

[1:12:35] Laura Camien: That's right. Like detached from technology and went and spent a weekend, I believe, um, camping.

[1:12:42] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And talked about like boredom and what else is there to engage the mind.

[1:12:48] Laura Camien: That's right. Um, I think that is a very interesting way to dip your toe into this.

[1:12:55] Susan Blackwell: I do too, because I think that we might all be surprised. I can sit here in, you know, semi-judgment of someone who's like, I can't take being alone.

[1:13:03] Laura Camien: I'm gonna know judgment of it.

[1:13:05] Susan Blackwell: You're a better person than I.

[1:13:07] Laura Camien: I've always suspected as much.

[1:13:09] Susan Blackwell: But it's true. But I've always been like, what are you talking about? You built your own, you've got a camp there, you're doing better than everybody, like stick it out. Um, but I do think it would be really interesting to know what are you allowed to bring a book? Is that one of the things that I've done?

[1:13:24] Laura Camien: I never see anyone with a book.

[1:13:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I guess if you know you had 10 items, a book would be our real luxury. It would be like, what were you thinking? Unless it was a how to survive in the wilderness. Engaging the brain is so.

[1:13:39] Laura Camien: I know that's why I think a pen and paper.

[1:13:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:13:42] Laura Camien: But but then it gets wet, or then a badger scurries away with it, and then where are you?

[1:13:47] Susan Blackwell: And then what happens? Henry David Thoreau said this.

[1:13:50] Laura Camien: I went into the woods because I wish to live deliberately to front only the essential facts of life and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.

[1:14:07] Susan Blackwell: And I think there's really something to that.

[1:14:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:09] Susan Blackwell: What a spark.

[1:14:11] Laura Camien: I've got some thoughts about the spark. Some things that I thought about while you were um speaking are I heard many. This is half here's a half-baked spark for you. Many years ago, I remember hearing that there was an order, like a monastic order. And their one of their rights of initiation is that they take one of these candidates for whatever this order is of brotherhood or whatever, uh, and they drop them somewhere in the world with no money, no there.

[1:14:42] Susan Blackwell: This is, I think, is pre-cell phone, like none of that.

[1:14:46] Laura Camien: And their right of initiation is to find their way back.

[1:14:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:14:53] Laura Camien: So a little twist on this. It's not just about endurance, like how long can you last in the in the woods, but it's how can you um find your way back, connect with people, and how you know, and to make your way in that sense.

[1:15:09] Susan Blackwell: I think that Eagle Scouts do they do something like that?

[1:15:13] Laura Camien: I think they take you into the woods, and I think it's a quest kind of thing. Uh but I think you have to survive in the woods like a night or two nights and find your way back it to a certain place.

[1:15:25] Susan Blackwell: That's amazing.

[1:15:26] Laura Camien: And I probably would not fare well, but who knows what when the, you know, when the I just honestly I think about the self-confidence that would come along with if I had to um build a trap to catch an animal so that I could survive.

[1:15:43] Susan Blackwell: Could I do that? If I needed to figure out how to grow a garden in a foreign like place, would I know what's edible and what's not edible?

[1:15:53] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:54] Susan Blackwell: Um would I have the strength to chop logs and build them into everything you're saying? I'm like, no, I'd be dead.

[1:16:02] Laura Camien: No, I'd be dead.

[1:16:05] Susan Blackwell: No, I'd be dead.

[1:16:05] Laura Camien: So I just think like there's something to having the confidence, even if you never have to use those skills. What if you had them just in your back pocket?

[1:16:13] Susan Blackwell: Um, you know what all the spark brings up for me? It's somebody that we both know and love who has some of these abilities.

[1:16:20] Laura Camien: I know it.

[1:16:20] Susan Blackwell: It's Nathan.

[1:16:22] Laura Camien: And I have to say, I love it.

[1:16:24] Susan Blackwell: I yeah, we joke about it in our house. The phrase a bit of a prepper is something that we feel banded about. But his um he can do all of that, like uh, you know, people that you know, people like Nathan, he can do that thing where he does um really remote winter camping where he goes to extremely remote locations and can do like extreme camping in extreme circumstances.

[1:16:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:16:51] Susan Blackwell: So he has those skills.

[1:16:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:16:53] Susan Blackwell: He can like he's um he has he's an amazing uh archer with bow and arrow.

[1:16:59] Laura Camien: Oh my god, you'll be you'll be okay when the zombie apocalypse comes.

[1:17:05] Susan Blackwell: Um, but he just has a lot of forethought about like we have all sorts of like um food that can last in our house. And depending on how preppish he's feeling, like we have a lot of water stored and things like that.

[1:17:22] Laura Camien: And I'm studying on growing our own vegetables.

[1:17:28] Susan Blackwell: Um even throughout the winter, things like that.

[1:17:30] Laura Camien: Um, so that is heartening to me.

[1:17:32] Susan Blackwell: That's one, what do you make of it?

[1:17:34] Laura Camien: We'll see.

[1:17:35] Susan Blackwell: I really do.

[1:17:36] Laura Camien: No, I mean I've thought about that. When if not when, gosh, I don't mean to be so apocalyptic, but if something happens, like a major weather event or something, I feel like it's one of those things where the minute that, for instance, we run out of propane, we're not in great shape.

[1:17:55] Susan Blackwell: Like it's um, we don't have we don't have all those skills.

[1:17:57] Laura Camien: Do you have a generator?

[1:17:58] Susan Blackwell: We do.

[1:17:59] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:18:00] Susan Blackwell: We do.

[1:18:00] Laura Camien: That's good.

[1:18:01] Susan Blackwell: Do you have a generator?

[1:18:01] Laura Camien: No, but we've talked about it.

[1:18:03] Susan Blackwell: I know. Isn't it funny what becomes sexy as you get older?

[1:18:06] Laura Camien: Generator.

[1:18:09] Susan Blackwell: Ooh, a generator.

[1:18:11] Laura Camien: Um, in any event, uh, I love that he has those skills and your spark inspires me to want to, instead of just like relying on him and like, you know, happily teasing him about it, to do things like have a better understanding of what we have at our disposal, what we don't have, and to also, I loved what you said about being able to lift my own body weight.

[1:18:36] Susan Blackwell: Like that is something that I may have been able to do at one time, but right now, maybe not so much.

[1:18:41] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:18:41] Susan Blackwell: So, like using that as motivation for my for my daily workout.

[1:18:46] Laura Camien: Like, I think that is a fantastic thing.

[1:18:49] Susan Blackwell: That's a great spark.

[1:18:51] Laura Camien: It also reminds me of shows that I love, which I think are an incredibly great use of television. Things like, um Prairie House.

[1:19:01] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:19:02] Laura Camien: And do you know those series?

[1:19:03] Susan Blackwell: Is that Prairie House Manor House?

[1:19:06] Laura Camien: It basically where they put people in historical PDS.

[1:19:10] Susan Blackwell: We may have talked about it on the show.

[1:19:12] Laura Camien: I actually know someone who was on one of those.

[1:19:15] Susan Blackwell: Shut up.

[1:19:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:19:15] Susan Blackwell: You're kidding.

[1:19:16] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:19:16] Susan Blackwell: Do you know which one?

[1:19:18] Laura Camien: Prairie House?

[1:19:19] Susan Blackwell: What's the third? Is there a third one?

[1:19:20] Laura Camien: Prairie House?

[1:19:21] Susan Blackwell: It's colony.

[1:19:21] Laura Camien: It's the colony one where they have to build a colony.

[1:19:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:19:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:19:25] Susan Blackwell: How they do.

[1:19:26] Laura Camien: I think okay.

[1:19:27] Susan Blackwell: They were in more than one season.

[1:19:29] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[1:19:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:19:30] Laura Camien: So the thing that I loved about that show is they put people in historical contexts and they assessed, like based on how many uh crops they canned and put away in the root cellar, etc.

[1:19:43] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:19:45] Laura Camien: Would they have survived that's right the winter?

[1:19:48] Susan Blackwell: How long would their stores have lasted?

[1:19:50] Laura Camien: I think we might have talked about this during the Laura Engels Wilder episode, maybe, or maybe we didn't.

[1:19:55] Susan Blackwell: I don't think so.

[1:19:55] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[1:19:56] Susan Blackwell: To me, yes, that's exactly the use of television.

[1:20:00] Laura Camien: So this is it was fun to hear modern day people really talk about the realities of the day in, day out, lifestyle and hardships of people in a historical context that was not that long ago.

[1:20:15] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:20:16] Laura Camien: I just have you ever lifted, you know, like a like a cast iron pot that you have to like full of water that you're trying to boil enough potatoes for the family.

[1:20:27] Susan Blackwell: I mean, this is not light housework duties.

[1:20:30] Laura Camien: No, this will this will give you some serious guns.

[1:20:34] Susan Blackwell: Um and then I don't know. I guess what I'm the biggest spark that I take away, the biggest what do you make of this that I make of this is the desire to be more self-reliant and to do some of those things that I've been interested in living on the side of a mountain, like growing my own food throughout the winter.

[1:20:57] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:20:58] Susan Blackwell: Um things like that, like things live being able to lift my own body weight, um being better at cooking meals from whole ingredients.

[1:21:11] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:21:11] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[1:21:12] Laura Camien: Yes, I do.

[1:21:13] Susan Blackwell: Just things like that.

[1:21:14] Laura Camien: It's a little pioneer yet.

[1:21:16] Susan Blackwell: No, I love it.

[1:21:17] Laura Camien: I mean, obviously, that's that's what sparks me about this.

[1:21:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:21:21] Laura Camien: If I don't have to, I don't want to give up my electric blanket.

[1:21:24] Susan Blackwell: No, but right now I don't have to.

[1:21:26] Laura Camien: You don't have to, but just to like, and I don't want to live in fear.

[1:21:29] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:21:30] Laura Camien: But I do love the idea of living from this point forward.

[1:21:34] Susan Blackwell: And so many of our sparks have flowed into this for me, but just like strong, keyed in, able to be self-reliant.

[1:21:43] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:21:43] Susan Blackwell: Like I, and also this ties in another spark. Getting back to those things that break us up with our screens and cell phones, like doing puzzles together, yes, reading together in the evening, thinking that's right.

[1:21:57] Laura Camien: Just things like that.

[1:21:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:21:59] Laura Camien: I that's exactly for me what this spark is about.

[1:22:03] Susan Blackwell: And doing it all not from fear, but from self-empowerment.

[1:22:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:22:08] Susan Blackwell: And how it feels to know that a, you have the strength to do it, you have the knowledge to do it. And then frankly, all of those situations are creative problem solving.

[1:22:20] Laura Camien: So you've got the ability to think creatively, um, and survive.

[1:22:26] Susan Blackwell: And when we're not doing that, we'll definitely be watching starting with season one, alone.

[1:22:32] Laura Camien: Alone.

[1:22:32] Susan Blackwell: On the history channel.

[1:22:33] Laura Camien: On the history channel.

[1:22:34] Susan Blackwell: I'm so into it.

[1:22:36] Laura Camien: How have I never seen this?

[1:22:38] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[1:22:39] Laura Camien: Good luck.

[1:22:39] Susan Blackwell: I really don't.

[1:22:40] Laura Camien: Well, I'm in for a treat.

[1:22:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[1:22:42] Laura Camien: I've got six seasons to unpack.

[1:22:43] Susan Blackwell: And then you can read Walden.

[1:22:48] Laura Camien: And when I'm not watching alone, I can read Walden by Candlelight.

[1:22:52] Susan Blackwell: That's right. You're so classy.

[1:22:54] Laura Camien: I think that's it.

[1:22:55] Susan Blackwell: I think it is.

[1:22:56] Laura Camien: Well, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:23:00] Susan Blackwell: Listen. If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share it, won't you email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website.

[1:23:13] Laura Camien: You know what? That's even better.

[1:23:14] Susan Blackwell: We love it. Submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:23:17] Laura Camien: Do it.

[1:23:17] Susan Blackwell: Don't not do it.

[1:23:18] Laura Camien: Do it.

[1:23:19] Susan Blackwell: We'll even take your feedback.

[1:23:21] Laura Camien: But you know the price of admission.

[1:23:23] Susan Blackwell: First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:23:27] Laura Camien: And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast.

[1:23:31] Susan Blackwell: Subscribe rate, five-star review it. If you like this podcast, would you please share it with people you love?

[1:23:39] Laura Camien: It makes a huge difference.

[1:23:41] Susan Blackwell: If you didn't like it, in the words of legendary drag queen, Alaska Thunderfuck.

[1:23:47] Laura Camien: Bye!

[1:23:48] Susan Blackwell: Bye.

[1:23:49] Laura Camien: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:24:00] Susan Blackwell: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:24:03] Laura Camien: You gotta creatively attack it.

[1:24:05] Susan Blackwell: You gotta costume racket.

[1:24:07] Laura Camien: You gotta do like Brady Peters, an A-Z sub stack it.

[1:24:11] Susan Blackwell: You gotta take it and make it.

[1:24:15] Laura Camien: Bye.

[1:24:19] Susan Blackwell: Sparks.

[1:24:20] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark fire.

[1:24:20] Susan Blackwell: Spark fire.

[1:24:29] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:24:34] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in the spark fire.

[1:24:34] Laura Camien: Spark fire.

[1:24:39] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark fire.

[1:24:44] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark fire.