This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file. Sparkfiles will be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark style. Spark!

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone. I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life. If you're an OG member of the Sparkfile community, welcome back, Sparkler. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, new friend. Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:05] Laura Camien: But hold the phone. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a sparkfile? Well, a sparkfile is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know, if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out. Hey, don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:34] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast. Or a joyful creative process that get this includes the idea of self-promotion. Oh boy.

[1:49] Laura Camien: Oh every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're also gonna talk to a few folks who spark us. That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime. So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it. So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:16] Susan Blackwell: Here it is. Here it is. And now, baby. It's open. It's open and we're inside of it. It's so roomy. Look around. There's some crazy shit in here.

[2:27] Laura Camien: I feel like if you did a room that was a spark file in the form of a room, it would be like the room of requirement from Harry Potter.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah. It'd just be like so much floor to ceiling to draw from. Oh, how fun. We should do an exercise where like we sort of map out, we draw the inside of our spark file.

[2:49] Laura Camien: I love that. It's like, does it have shelves in it? This is on my mind because right now I'm rearranging our spice jars and like using the Cricut to make like retro spice labels. But I'm like, is it stuff in jars? Is it floating in formaldehyde? Are there dry goods? Like what is your spark file look like?

[3:10] Susan Blackwell: I feel like mine looks a lot like my teenage bedroom, which was like piles of clothing of just stuff everywhere in a little walkway to like get to the bed.

[3:22] Laura Camien: Was your teenage bedroom messy?

[3:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh, yes.

[3:27] Laura Camien: Was it yes? A totally did you get in trouble for that?

[3:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, constantly.

[3:33] Laura Camien: And you just had a little path to make your way.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: It was a little of that. This is why we can't have nice things. And so, like, if you don't clean this room up, no, you can't use it. You can't have that new pair of jeans. You can't have a pair of leaves. You can't even hang up the jeans that you have already.

[3:47] Laura Camien: Oh my god, that gave me chills. That was exact. That is something that would have been said.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: And in the role of your mother.

[3:55] Laura Camien: Exactly. You can't even hang up the jeans you have. I love this about you. I love it about you. I think I've told you I've I speak about this very openly, but the hoarding in my house was just really off the chain. And our bedroom that I shared with my two sisters was on the top floor of our house, and it had this linoleum on the floor that looked like a cream colored floor with like pickup sticks patterned on it, which I really loved. It was like weird and retro, but we never saw it.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: Why?

[4:27] Laura Camien: Because every square inch of the floor was covered all the time with school uniforms and scraps of fabric from my mom's sewing and just like books and open board games with the pieces missing. And it was just you never saw the floor. You never ever saw the floor.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: And every once in a while, I'm gonna say once a year, I would get like a yen to like get to the floor.

[4:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I would be like, that is so cool. That linoleum is so cool. And then it would just all fill in again. I just didn't know. We didn't learn. I had to teach myself later in life. I feel like I still to this day have not learned how to like truly embrace the use of a dresser drawers. I feel like dresser drawers are for those things I'm never going to need to look for. Deep storage. I put them in there, and then I forget I have them.

[5:29] Susan Blackwell: I think I can help you with that. But I think really I what I learned about dresser drawers is Marie Kondo. How to thank and bless and release. So you can still see things. You have to be able to see everything. So she has that system where you fold it a particular way so you almost stack it. It's like a bookshelf that's been laid on its side and you can just go do do do do and find everything that you need.

[5:54] Laura Camien: Yeah I've been more of the like out of sight, out of mind with clothing in particular. So that's why it all needs to stay out but now like we have a lot of hooks in our bedroom.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: Oh the hook system.

[6:08] Laura Camien: So at least it can like stay off the floor.

[6:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes. But I can see it on a hook and I can remain comfortable that I still know where that is. I can still wear it. I have a goal I'm working on a goal of really I did this really well about a year and a half ago when I did the curated closet and I really like pared down I need to do it again. I need to really pare down I have I'm gonna say a rack's worth of clothing that either needs to go or be sold or be donated. Do something with it and just really freshen it up and lighten it up so that right now in the closet when I go to like I'm pretty good about putting stuff away like cleaning it hanging putting it away or putting it away in the drawers but it's it it's just like I have to go like to find a little space for it and like just like shooting it right into the space where it belongs.

[7:04] Laura Camien: So I like to color code my clothes and get them all lined up. But it's just like Laura, it's like having again too many books on a bookshelf. And I'm just like, yeah, one more way for thin t-shirt. It just gotta fit. So I don't I don't like that. I like it when there's just I aspire to this and I don't think I've ever achieved it. Just a little air. Yeah. Just a little. I'd love that. Yeah. That's just not the case right now. I'm working on it. But I don't know how we got on. Oh, the inside of our spark file. So that's true. Um, yeah, mine would be my messy teenage bedroom.

[7:39] Susan Blackwell: I love that. I love it. But listen, we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about Spox. We're gonna talk about the sparks inside our Sparks File. And I found one today that I'd like to share with you.

[7:52] Laura Camien: I'm ready to be sparked.

[7:54] Susan Blackwell: Well, Suze, you know, as we record this today on this particular day, I know that listeners, you won't hear this for a little while, but we are nearing the end of our latest cohort of Blaze, which is our six-month creativity coaching program. And this program really focuses on helping our creatives fan the flames and keep the fires burning on those long form projects. Make those things. Make those things and and those things that require commitment and continual recommitment in order to complete the creative project.

[8:30] Laura Camien: So I gotta say, once again, my mind has been blown by the sheer amount of creativity that has transpired within this group, Suze.

[8:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Like among all of our groups, we have shows going up. We have so many shows going up. I have literally seen personally five shows created by or starring our Sparks File participants in the last three weeks. And there are three more that I couldn't attend because they were in other cities.

[9:01] Laura Camien: Yeah. We have plays and essays and poems being published. We have businesses launching. We have chapters and books being completed, websites being polished, albums being created. We have a musician on a European tour. We have a newly certified Bob Ross painting instructor. We have a family farm business that just completed their haunt season with a 30% increase in audiences. Woo-hoo.

[9:29] Susan Blackwell: I mean, sparklers are doing it all.

[9:31] Laura Camien: They're doing it all. There's so much creativity happening. Sparklers are doing it for themselves.

[9:38] Susan Blackwell: That was pitchy dog.

[9:40] Laura Camien: But I loved it. I love the sentiment of that.

[9:42] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. And the thing is, with all of this creativity happening, we have a lot of people starting to think about how they want to shine the light of their work in the world.

[9:52] Laura Camien: And when you say shine the light, what you mean is...

[9:52] Susan Blackwell: Well, what I mean is start to promote their work. Get it out there. Um, and I'll get more into how we define that in a sec. But yeah. So back to the point, we've got a lot of people starting to think about how they want to shine the light of their work out in the world. And something we have noticed almost universally is that when we bring up the topic of promoting our work, the response is almost unanimously dread.

[10:25] Laura Camien: I mean like stomach churning dread.

[10:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. There are a few other choice words that people have used to describe it, but it's all sort of in that category of like, please, God, don't make me do it, right? So most of us don't think of marketing and promotion as part of our creative process. And I want to talk about that today. I'm really sparked to talk about that. I'll dig a little further about that in just a moment.

[10:53] Laura Camien: But as you know, Suze, at the Sparks File, we believe in the power of creativity for the sake of creativity.

[10:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:00] Laura Camien: And that is just great. So you get to decide if you want to create a million things and not share a single one with the world that is absolutely your choice, and you will receive no judgment from us. We would fully celebrate that. But for many of us, there does come a time when we are ready to share our work in a bigger way. Like we've polished it and prepared it, and we're ready to release it off into the world, hopefully, in a way that allows it to really take off.

[11:30] Susan Blackwell: What we've discovered in our conversations with many, many, many, many creatives is that when it comes to making your work a success, like selling tickets, selling books, gaining followers, getting PR coverage, there may be a part of you that just cannot wait to get to the point where you can pass all of that off to somebody else.

[11:54] Laura Camien: Oh, the old blank and shiny armor.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: Right? Like, can't somebody else worry about all of that?

[12:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:02] Susan Blackwell: But today I want to talk about kind of a tough reality. The fact is the Calvary is not coming.

[12:11] Laura Camien: She's not coming.

[12:12] Susan Blackwell: Not coming. There is no marketing and PR night in shining armor at any level. And that is what may be surprising, but at any level. Even at like the your J-Lo. There is no way that J-Lo does not have a vision in her mind as to how she wants to be represented in the world. She may have a team of people that do the daily work.

[12:39] Laura Camien: Execute it.

[12:39] Susan Blackwell: That execute, but she guaranteed she is not like, I don't want to think about that. Yeah, I'm gonna leave that in the hands of someone else. No way. At the end of the day, to some degree, no matter how successful you get, it is still you because no one is ever gonna care as much about your work, your reputation, your coverage as you do.

[13:04] Laura Camien: So the more that you keep in your hands, the better.

[13:08] Susan Blackwell: Like I said, you can have support getting the work done, but you always want to maintain control of the strategy and the messaging and the vision, essentially, the vision for it all. So to do that, I think it's helpful to think of the promotional aspects as part of your creative process. In fact, Suze, you and I believe in it so much that when we developed what we now call the spark cycle of creativity, we included it. The spark of an idea becomes a fire, we fan the flames until the project is complete, and then we share the light with the world. It's all part of it, and we intentionally didn't say, like, oh, here's this fun creative process, and then here is this dreadful thing that you have to do in order to shine the light.

[13:56] Laura Camien: So I guess where we land is like you could choose to view the marketing and promotion of your work as a necessary evil, but if you do, it will always be something that you battle. Like you're if you define your relationship to it in that way, it will always be something that comes up, but you come up against it and it's painful, or you avoid it, you do as little as possible, you silently rebel against it. You could do that. Like those choices are obviously there for you, but I don't believe that they serve you or your art.

[14:34] Susan Blackwell: I mean, you're literally putting your heart and your soul into something. Why do that and then keep it hidden or diminish it or apologize for it? Like we talk all the time. Your art has the power to heal you and to heal others for goodness sakes. We want to get it in front of those people whose lives could be saved by it. And I know that might sound dramatic, but I believe it 100%. There are lives that could be saved by the work that you're writing right now, or the show that you're performing and or the business that you're building. So the audience that you're looking for might be the masses, but I really don't think so anymore. We live in a world now where it's actually much easier to reach very specific niches of human beings.

[15:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[15:26] Susan Blackwell: And what you're wanting to do, like rather than trying to, yes, some among us will become JLo. Probably me, I guess.

[15:32] Laura Camien: Yeah, it might need to be you, Suze.

[15:35] Susan Blackwell: I think. I mean, look at me. And have you seen me dance? I mean, come on.

[15:39] Laura Camien: Come on.

[15:41] Susan Blackwell: But it's much more likely that what we are looking for is the niche of human beings who are carrying around the same quirky weirdness as you are, or a heart that was wounded in the same way that you were. And we want to connect with those people, whether that's like 2,000 people, 20,000 people, two million people. That's really who we're looking for authentically, like an authentic connection to people.

[16:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:13] Susan Blackwell: So listen, if there's any part of you that would like your work to gain a following, or if you're looking toward your creativity to sustain you financially, at some point, you're gonna have to take an active role in the promotion of it. So here at the Sparks File, we offer you this possibility. Try it on if you're willing. Oh my god, what's it gonna be? You can choose to see the act of marketing and promoting yourself and your work as another creative act, as an extension of your creativity because it is, and you can approach it in the way you would approach your work authentically with your unique voice, your style in a way that works for you. You can in fact promote your work with your personal integrity and your personal values intact. I know this to be true, Suze, because I have lived it, and I want to share some of that experience with you now in terms of how I've come to believe this so wholeheartedly.

[17:20] Laura Camien: And the history I want to give you is a lot of Blue Man Group, but it also we use these principles in title of show, marketing title of show. We use some of these principles in promoting the Sparks File.

[17:34] Susan Blackwell: All right, take us inside, Laura Camien.

[17:36] Laura Camien: We'll take you inside. But I'm gonna start, and like I said, it's gonna be um a good amount of Blue Man Group. Way, way, way back when, many years ago, when I was a young intern at a tiny little off Broadway show called Blue Man Group, I kept my eyes and ears open at all times, and I started to absorb a bit of the ethos around marketing. And you know, here's me, kid, all full of gumption. I went all Jerry McGuire and I wrote a little manifesto. I wrote down the Blue Man Group marketing philosophies.

[18:14] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[18:14] Laura Camien: Now, again, I can't take credit for all of these concepts. Everything was always a group effort at Blue Man. But I thought to put them down on paper. I thought we should codify these. We should make sure we're all in agreement about them. And then we can use this as a way to help other people and partners and companies understand how we work. Because we were always meeting like ad agencies, potential partners. They would assume that we approach marketing the way they approach marketing. We'd spend half of the time just trying to communicate where we were coming from.

[18:47] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[18:47] Laura Camien: It was a little different.

[18:48] Susan Blackwell: So you were like, here, I made a pamphlet.

[18:48] Laura Camien: Here, I made a document. This will catch you up to speed.

[18:55] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[18:59] Laura Camien: Thank you. You nerd.

[19:01] Susan Blackwell: I'm a total nerd.

[19:02] Laura Camien: But it was super fun because we gathered like the creative team because, like, what big principle here? The creative, the same creatives that created the Blue Man show and all the things participated in the creative in the marketing. It was not separate.

[19:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:20] Laura Camien: All right. So I felt sparked to share some of these philosophies with you and just share a little bit about how following these philosophies served as a connection to our values and helped the show grow into a global phenomenon, which by the way is still running 30 plus years later, which is not so.

[19:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that is crazy.

[19:42] Laura Camien: So I should say these philosophies have evolved and changed over the years, obviously, and I'm sure that they've continued to change since the company was purchased by Cirque du Soleil in 2018, I think it was. So I want to be super clear. I don't speak for them in any official capacity now. But I did work with Blue Man Group from 1995 to 2017. I started as an intern. I moved up to marketing director, eventually I was the VP of communication, overseeing all PR communication for the company globally. And it was a crazy, crazy ride the whole way. I would not trade that experience for anything. Suze, you know, you've got a good sense of this because you were around in the early years.

[20:35] Susan Blackwell: Like this is how we met.

[20:37] Laura Camien: This is how we met.

[20:38] Susan Blackwell: And was I ever.

[20:39] Laura Camien: I have seen that show so many times.

[20:41] Susan Blackwell: There was a time when I was like, put me in the show.

[20:44] Laura Camien: Oh, Suze.

[20:45] Susan Blackwell: And you've seen primarily the New York and Boston shows, I would imagine, right? Or did you see it a Chicago and New York, Boston, Chicago?

[20:54] Laura Camien: But you're, you know, you've been around the world and back. Listen, I got your hundred shows and up you by another thousand.

[21:04] Susan Blackwell: Totally.

[21:05] Laura Camien: But you can vouch for the fact that in the early years, like it's an understatement to say that Blue Man Group was cutting edge. No one had seen anything like it.

[21:16] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[21:17] Laura Camien: I mean, that they that was incredibly influential on my young artist's brain and how you tell stories and how you can develop work. And you've said this, but it's easy to forget how groundbreaking that was. But yeah, having lived right through the beginning of it, it was super duper groundbreaking.

[21:32] Susan Blackwell: It was super duper groundbreaking.

[21:39] Laura Camien: And the way that they promoted the way we promoted that show, took it at a slow pace, kept the ownership in the hands of the three guys who started it. It allowed it to rather than be a flash in the pan, never to be heard of again after 1990 something. It allowed it to like it opened in 91. I would say it peaked in like 2005. Like it really was a slow burn. But if you will indulge me for just a moment, just sit back and relax for just a little story time.

[22:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm loving this.

[22:20] Laura Camien: Come on. Listeners, I promise it will swing back around and be relevant to you and your work. But I want to just give you a little bit of context. So Blue Man Group was not created with some kind of master plan in place. The three guys who created it didn't dream of like creating a show that could be franchised and performed by others around the world, not even in their realm of consciousness. They set out to create something to entertain themselves and others. They set out to create something meaningful, something specifically that they would want to see. So they combined elements from things that entertained them, which included a subversive critique of modern art and 1980s culture. They created roles for themselves to play that focused on each of their unique skills.

And if some of them, if they had limitations in their skills, they embraced that and just went with like, what are our strong suits? So one of them had grown up working at his dad's hardware store. He could build cool stuff out of random things. He was also a trained actor. One of them was a trained drummer. He could play music, and one of them was a software engineer. His job supported them as they all created the show and spent their random evenings and weekends in pursuit of this. But they were all super smart and had loads of talent. So they created this thing that entertained themselves. They stayed true to their own vision and they built it bit by bit, literally trying out like 10 to 15 minutes of content at festivals like Serious Fun at Lincoln Center, around New York City, like King Tut's Wawa Hut.

[24:06] Susan Blackwell: Fun fact, Suze, I just had lunch with somebody who, not even in relation to Blue Man, was telling me it's one of our clients. Hi, Alex, um, who mentioned that King Tut's Wawa Hut was a favorite place of theirs to go in the 80s when they went near the 80s. I was like, really? Are you kidding me? I don't know that I've really met anyone besides Blue Man people that ever who hung out there, hung out there.

[24:33] Laura Camien: That's a deep cut.

[24:34] Susan Blackwell: That's a deep cut.

[24:35] Laura Camien: So eventually they were invited to create a whole show, which opened at the Astor Place Theater in 1991. The show was originally booked for a three-week run. But word of mouth took off and it kept getting extended. The three original guys performed every single show, eight shows a week until they bought out the original producers. They wanted to own the content that they had created. They wanted to do it themselves and not be under the control of anyone else. So it took them a little while to do it. So if you're out there and you're like, uh, how am I gonna do that? It took them a little while to do it, but they were focused on that, and they knew once they owned it, they would start to branch out. But when I say they did like eight shows a week, I mean they were being asked to come be on the tonight show in LA. They had to figure out a way to get to LA and back on the one day that they had off.

[25:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[25:37] Laura Camien: They were still this won't mean anything if you don't know the show, but they were making the jello themselves, they were washing the costumes themselves, they had to do all of that. They were scrubbing the rubber mats.

[25:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[25:48] Laura Camien: That show is so messy.

[25:50] Susan Blackwell: So messy.

[25:51] Laura Camien: Oh my god. So over the years they were approached by Disney, they were approached by other major players to buy them out. Again, they said no. They wanted to see what they could create on their own. And early on, magicians, Penn and Teller came to the show and said, This is genius. You could have other people play these roles, and you could have multiple shows running at the same time, like the band Kiss, and no one would know whether it's you or not. You know, those guys didn't had not conceived of that, truly. They were like, but we made these roles for ourselves. It's only only the three of us could play these roles.

[26:27] Susan Blackwell: Possibly do it.

[26:28] Laura Camien: But I do think, I mean, I think about that for us. Like only we could possibly, only us.

[26:34] Susan Blackwell: But I'm like, actually, no, you can teach people.

[26:34] Laura Camien: That's right.

[26:41] Susan Blackwell: Sort of a performance or systems.

[26:43] Laura Camien: And sure can. And then they they can carry the torch.

[26:46] Susan Blackwell: You sure can.

[26:47] Laura Camien: So that you can fly to Los Angeles to be on the tonight show.

[26:50] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[26:51] Laura Camien: And that's how we structured it in years to come. But around that time when Penn and Teller came to the show is when I joined the show. And thanks to that sound advice from them, we proceeded one by one to open other shows slowly. Whereas other people and producers were like, you gotta like boom, boom, boom, you gotta act while the while the fire's hot or whatever. No, slowly one by one. We opened in Boston, then Chicago, then Las Vegas. All of these shows are still running. Uh Toronto, Orlando, Tokyo, London, Amsterdam, many, many more. We released an album that was nominated for a Grammy Award. We performed at the Grammys to a standing ovation. I remember Beyonce standing up at the end of this performance. I mean, it was like Justin Timberlake, like the people, it was phenomenal. This was not the norm at the time, you know.

[27:47] Susan Blackwell: And Laura, just paint the picture for me. During that, are you like, I'm backstage at the glass?

[27:52] Laura Camien: Yeah, where are your backstage?

[27:54] Laura Camien: I'm on the red, so I would be, you know, all red carpet stuff, all press, all media related things. So I'm on the red carpet with them, I'm in the media room, I'm in the green room, I'm in the backstage area.

[28:06] Susan Blackwell: Was that stressful? What was that like?

[28:09] Laura Camien: Like, you know, this kid from Kansas was just like, what? Are you kidding me? Now we're here, we're doing this. This is crazy. It was more fun than stressful, but I think it had to do with their approach to everything. It was like all of this is part of it.

[28:23] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[28:23] Laura Camien: This is part of sharing the light. All of this is part of it. And it's, and we're gonna be fun. And you have to understand that the guys that got chosen to play the role of the blue man, they all have a lot of things in common. Their physical stature, their like size and shape of them needs to be similar. But in my mind, they all share a very playful mindset. So it's literally their job to be in that the mode of like an improv, yes, and like you're if you're around these guys, things are popping, and we're like having fun and laughing, and that's their natural state of being is pretty great.

[29:12] Laura Camien: That's awesome.

[29:12] Susan Blackwell: It was pretty, pretty great.

[29:14] Laura Camien: So when we were nominated for a Grammy Award, this was not normal.

[29:19] Susan Blackwell: Like this is long before any musicals or TikTok musicals were winning Grammys.

[29:26] Laura Camien: And when we brought the show to Las Vegas, if you can believe this, at that time, the Las Vegas trip was not where Broadway shows went.

[29:35] Susan Blackwell: One show, I think at the time had attempted a run there.

[29:39] Laura Camien: I think it was Chicago, and they had attempted to run at Mandalay Bay.

[29:44] Susan Blackwell: It had flopped.

[29:45] Laura Camien: They learned certain things like Broadway shows are too long, you can't have an intermission, people will go out and gamble and not come back for the second half.

[29:52] Susan Blackwell: So all the shows need to be, you know, condensed.

[29:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:56] Susan Blackwell: And get it done, get the job done, and then let people go.

[30:00] Laura Camien: But at that moment, people were like, oh, real entertainment can't make it in Vegas.

[30:06] Susan Blackwell: But we were certain that our show was too technically difficult to tour.

[30:12] Laura Camien: So we thought if you create a sit-down show in Vegas, you stay in one place, but the audience moves through town like a tour, but in reverse.

[30:22] Susan Blackwell: Now, of course, performers like Elton John and Britney Spears and Lady Gaga, like all of them have realized the same.

[30:30] Laura Camien: Like, why tour the country on a bus when you can have a residency in Las Vegas and the country will come to you?

[30:37] Susan Blackwell: So the shows we opened were like sit-down shows, mind you, multiple cities.

[30:41] Laura Camien: We opened the shows with the intent to like bond in the city and run as long as possible.

[30:47] Susan Blackwell: At the time, that idea was unprecedented.

[30:50] Laura Camien: No one else was doing this.

[30:52] Susan Blackwell: I think now Hamilton has done a few like sit-downs in other cities that they intend to keep there for any length of time.

[31:00] Laura Camien: But to this day, the Blue Man Group Show has been running for 30 plus years in New York, 25 years in Boston, 23 years in Chicago, 22 years in Vegas, and so on.

[31:12] Susan Blackwell: That is bananas.

[31:14] Laura Camien: It's that is a bag of bananas.

[31:17] Susan Blackwell: It's nuts.

[31:19] Laura Camien: And the thing is, the content of the show, it evolved and changed.

[31:24] Susan Blackwell: They kept it moving, yes, to entertain audiences, but also to keep themselves from getting stagnant.

[31:32] Laura Camien: So at any given time, like we were like refreshing shows with new content, taking pieces out, putting pieces in.

[31:40] Susan Blackwell: When Blue Man eventually did tour, we did not tour the theatrical show first.

[31:45] Laura Camien: We released a second album.

[31:47] Susan Blackwell: It was kind of a satirical rock concert.

[31:50] Laura Camien: And we toured a Blue Man Group rock concert show that played 20,000 seat arenas around the country.

[31:58] Susan Blackwell: It circled the country three times and then to South America, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and eventually a world tour.

[32:09] Laura Camien: We created lines of toys, children's museum exhibits, albums, music for motion pictures, commercial campaigns.

[32:18] Susan Blackwell: We wrote a book.

[32:20] Laura Camien: We created original TV appearances for literally thousands of shows because they all needed to be bespoke to the show.

[32:29] Susan Blackwell: We worked with sporting teams in all of our cities for live performances in their stadiums.

[32:34] Laura Camien: We collaborated with shows like Arrested Development to create storylines.

[32:38] Susan Blackwell: Can I just pause you and say I listened to the Smartless Podcast?

[32:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:42] Susan Blackwell: And Jason Bateman and Will Arnett, along with Sean Hayes, have this Smartless Podcast.

[32:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:47] Susan Blackwell: And their guest recently was Tony Hale.

[32:51] Laura Camien: Uh huh.

[32:51] Susan Blackwell: And they were talking about the things that they loved and laughed the hardest at.

[32:56] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[32:57] Susan Blackwell: And they cited the Blue Man storyline.

[33:00] Laura Camien: Oh, I've been meaning to tell you that.

[33:03] Susan Blackwell: Because I know that you were around for that and were part of that.

[33:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:07] Susan Blackwell: I mean, we took a team of them through the theater with them and they saw the show.

[33:16] Laura Camien: And one of the things that they saw was like, 'What's all this like? There's like blue smudges everywhere.' And the thing is, like the paint that the Blue Man used, it never dries.

[33:27] Susan Blackwell: It's grease paint.

[33:28] Laura Camien: We know we're theater people, right?

[33:29] Susan Blackwell: It's grease paint.

[33:31] Laura Camien: So if it gets on something, it stays on something.

[33:35] Susan Blackwell: And they found that to be fascinating, and that's what they ran with.

[33:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:40] Susan Blackwell: When they came back to us with the script, we were just like unbelievable that that's the little way in that they found, which was really, really delightful.

[33:51] Laura Camien: So yeah, we developed partnerships with high-end museums, casinos, cruise lines, airlines.

[33:56] Susan Blackwell: We literally had airplanes wrapped with Blue Man Group images flying in and out of Las Vegas at one point.

[34:03] Laura Camien: We collaborated with incredible, like significant artists.

[34:08] Susan Blackwell: I can't even list all of them.

[34:10] Laura Camien: I can tell you, all the things that we did increased the awareness of Blue Man Group in the cultural lexicon, yes.

[34:17] Susan Blackwell: But every single decision was made by a group of people, including this gal, who were basing the decision not on will this sell a ticket, but rather is this an interesting creative challenge for us?

[34:34] Laura Camien: Would this be fun to do?

[34:36] Susan Blackwell: Would this project propel us to develop a new technology or explore a new creative idea we've been dreaming of?

[34:43] Laura Camien: It was our absolute belief that our relationship to marketing and promotions could be fun, it could be creative, and at the same time, it could make good sense for the business.

[34:56] Susan Blackwell: When Intel approached us to star in at the time, the largest global advertising campaign for a tech company ever, we turned them down twice, Laura.

[35:05] Laura Camien: We said no twice.

[35:08] Susan Blackwell: They kept coming back, and we said, to make it worth it, we have to have creative control of the content.

[35:15] Laura Camien: And every ad has to have the words Blue Man Group on the screen.

[35:19] Susan Blackwell: This was unheard of at the time, Laura.

[35:22] Laura Camien: Brilliant.

[35:23] Susan Blackwell: This was before even like before MTV even told you what song you were listening to in the show you were watching.

[35:30] Laura Camien: Do you know what I mean?

[35:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[35:31] Laura Camien: I mean, I've got to say that was probably a Matt Goldman, a Matt Goldman genius move of like, listen, if we're gonna have a $400 million ad by running, we want people to know that what they're looking at is Blue Man Group.

[35:44] Susan Blackwell: Yes, Matt Goldman, he's so smart.

[35:47] Laura Camien: And now you see it all the time.

[35:49] Susan Blackwell: They almost don't do it if they're not gonna, you know, make it about awareness for them.

[35:54] Laura Camien: So listen, having hyped all of that up, there's something that I want to mention that is essential.

[36:00] Susan Blackwell: None of us, not one were experts in producing, marketing, or running a business.

[36:08] Laura Camien: There were people who had expertise in different things for sure that were a part of it.

[36:14] Susan Blackwell: And certainly in the bookkeeping area, like I don't want to diminish the skills of the bookkeepers and some of the producers, but in general, we were more like an artist commune, honestly.

[36:26] Laura Camien: Every person on stage and off stage was an artist of some kind.

[36:30] Susan Blackwell: Our casting director was a dancer, our finance person was a sculptor.

[36:35] Laura Camien: I started as a marketing and PR intern, but I was actually an actor and a writer.

[36:40] Susan Blackwell: The overall belief was that we are creative people, we are capable people, we can figure this out.

[36:49] Laura Camien: And I just know, like, Susan, we talk to our clients all the time and just want to encourage them to embrace this idea that they are capable and they can figure this out.

[37:03] Susan Blackwell: It's not rocket science, it's not brain surgery.

[37:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:08] Susan Blackwell: It is figure outable.

[37:09] Laura Camien: It's figure outable.

[37:11] Susan Blackwell: So at Blue Man, we called ourselves a learning organization because we believed in our ability to learn things.

[37:18] Laura Camien: I'd never launched an album before, but now hanging in my office is a gold record with my name on it because we figured out how to market and promote an album.

[37:29] Susan Blackwell: That is another bag of bananas.

[37:31] Laura Camien: I gotta say thanks to Seth Fried on that.

[37:33] Susan Blackwell: Like we had, we had, you know, certain people who, like I said, had areas of expertise.

[37:38] Laura Camien: And then we all were like, okay, let's just run to catch up and figure out what we're doing.

[37:43] Susan Blackwell: I just want to say I feel uncomfortable to some degree just saying all those things because it's just all like the highlights and it feels a certain way.

[37:53] Laura Camien: Um it's all just facts.

[37:55] Susan Blackwell: It's just facts.

[37:57] Laura Camien: Okay, it's facts.

[37:58] Susan Blackwell: And I know it may or may not be impressive to you.

[38:01] Laura Camien: The world has changed.

[38:03] Susan Blackwell: There are newer, fresher, more exciting examples of success.

[38:06] Laura Camien: I totally get that.

[38:08] Susan Blackwell: But there are things to be learned from all of this.

[38:11] Laura Camien: Many of the concepts that Blue Man Group followed are ones that Susan and I believe strongly in.

[38:29] Susan Blackwell: And these concepts continue to reverberate through the Sparks File.

[38:34] Laura Camien: Yeah, I do.

[38:35] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so I'm going to share with you some of those marketing philosophies that guided us.

[38:43] Laura Camien: This from this ancient document, but here's the thing: here's what I'll say.

[38:47] Susan Blackwell: Is this YOLD Word document that a young Laura Camien originated and then refined over time?

[38:53] Laura Camien: Yes, with obviously with input from everyone else.

[38:57] Susan Blackwell: But it began, it began with little intern saying, I thought I should put these on paper.

[39:05] Laura Camien: Oh my God, you nerd.

[39:07] Susan Blackwell: You insufferable, wonderful nerd.

[39:09] Laura Camien: I'm such a nerd.

[39:10] Susan Blackwell: But here's a little like preamble that was at the beginning of the document.

[39:15] Laura Camien: The first priority of the Blue Man Group marketing and press team is to protect the integrity of the character and the project.

[39:23] Susan Blackwell: Notice we didn't start with like it's to sell tickets.

[39:27] Laura Camien: No, it's to protect the integrity of the character and the project.

[39:31] Susan Blackwell: Over the years, we've developed and maintained a set of rules and philosophies which we believe have served to build and sustain a positive brand awareness for Blue Man Group.

[39:39] Laura Camien: We acknowledge that our process may occasionally feel time consuming or challenging.

[39:44] Susan Blackwell: We understand it may not align entirely with the thinking of the traditional marketing world.

[39:49] Laura Camien: However, this process, if committed to, ensures the quality of results we aspire to.

[39:55] Susan Blackwell: We ask that all members of the team respect the systems and processes we have in place.

[40:00] Laura Camien: Having said that, we also acknowledge the necessity to remain flexible and responsive to the world in which we live.

[40:06] Susan Blackwell: We are committed to developing new ideas, adapting to new markets, and allowing for new growth and change over time.

[40:14] Laura Camien: It's always our goal to balance what we believe has worked for us previously with ideas which will continue to convey the excitement of the show and the character in new and different ways.

[40:24] Susan Blackwell: Ultimately, our goal is to create a collaborative process, one in which we learn from each other and utilize the best we each have to offer.

[40:34] Laura Camien: Together, we can determine when to reinvent the wheel and when to borrow from existing marketing practices.

[40:42] Susan Blackwell: So part of that was like because over the years it became my job to train everyone who worked on the promotion of a Blue Man Group show anywhere in the world.

[40:51] Laura Camien: Sure.

[40:51] Susan Blackwell: Well, like kind of like what our values were in regard to marketing.

[40:54] Laura Camien: And were you like, I have a pamphlet for you.

[40:57] Susan Blackwell: No, it's not a pamphlet.

[40:59] Laura Camien: I'd like to think of it.

[41:01] Susan Blackwell: I love the idea that you mimeographed it and did like the two staples gunk gunk went in the center and folded it.

[41:07] Laura Camien: You were like, I made a pamphlet and I hand illustrated it.

[41:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[41:16] Laura Camien: I wish I could say it looked anything like that.

[41:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna make you that for Christmas.

[41:21] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[41:23] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[41:25] Laura Camien: So here's the thing.

[41:26] Susan Blackwell: It really is about remaining in the driver's seat.

[41:30] Laura Camien: So for you at this moment, maybe you don't have a big team working on your project, but it might mean making sure you have a voice with your publisher or the team at the theater that you're renting or the art space you're performing or hosting an exhibit in.

[41:49] Susan Blackwell: You want to help them understand where you are coming from, as well as be someone who's open to other people's ideas.

[41:56] Laura Camien: They're not gonna want to reinvent the wheel for you.

[41:59] Susan Blackwell: And you're not gonna want to do everything the exact same way every other person does it.

[42:04] Laura Camien: So a collaborative spirit can serve to inspire everyone.

[42:09] Susan Blackwell: All right, the first tenet, the first philosophy is the work comes first.

[42:15] Laura Camien: Nothing sells the work like the work itself.

[42:18] Susan Blackwell: Creating exciting experiences and maintaining the quality of those experiences over time is more effective than any marketing we could plan or purchase.

[42:29] Laura Camien: Thousands of people walk through our doors every week.

[42:31] Susan Blackwell: What they say about the Blue Man experience determines our future.

[42:35] Laura Camien: The word of mouth rules.

[42:38] Susan Blackwell: Love that.

[42:38] Laura Camien: Love that.

[42:39] Susan Blackwell: Right?

[42:40] Laura Camien: Just plainly as possible.

[42:41] Susan Blackwell: We're not talking about doing this as something separate from the creative work.

[42:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:48] Susan Blackwell: Or something lesser than the quality of the creative work is everything.

[42:53] Laura Camien: It's everything.

[42:54] Susan Blackwell: It is the foundation.

[42:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:57] Susan Blackwell: You must first create something of value and meaning before we can even worry about how we will market it.

[43:02] Laura Camien: Yes.

[43:03] Susan Blackwell: If we create our work appropriately, the work itself will do a good amount of the heavy lifting for you.

[43:09] Laura Camien: Next up, we consistently balance art versus commerce.

[43:14] Susan Blackwell: We walk a tightrope every day.

[43:16] Laura Camien: Does the show exist because we sell tickets?

[43:18] Susan Blackwell: Or do we sell tickets because the show exists?

[43:22] Laura Camien: The answer is both.

[43:23] Susan Blackwell: Our goal is not to sacrifice one for the other.

[43:26] Laura Camien: Creative projects can be both artistic and successful.

[43:31] Susan Blackwell: Creative projects can be both artistic and successful.

[43:35] Laura Camien: I love that. And I picture young Laura Camien potentially or the team she worked with typing that sentence.

[43:42] Susan Blackwell: I did. I can see it. But like I said, it didn't come out of me. It came from the true belief of the three founders of this company, the three original blue men.

[43:54] Laura Camien: It can be artistic and it can be successful, and that can be okay. I love it. And I just want people to repeat that to themselves over and over again until it lives in your body.

[44:06] Susan Blackwell: I'm into it. Just too often we're taught that art is only pure if it is not making money.

[44:13] Laura Camien: Or we are taught that if something is making money, it's not art. It's a trap that sort of keeps artists and creatives from charging for their services, valuing their work, and feeling good about their compensation.

[44:28] Susan Blackwell: People can spend years wishing they could get paid for their creativity. Then they start to get paid for their creative work and they hit some arbitrary made-up tipping point and they begin believing that their art must be crap if they're getting paid for it.

[44:41] Laura Camien: It's commercial now. Ew, gross. Please don't believe those stories, friends. That feels like the upper limit. Like it's totally an upper limit.

[44:49] Susan Blackwell: It's like an upper limit, like a narrative you tell yourself that if you hit the certain level of financial success, then that else.

[45:00] Laura Camien: I know that how that narrative goes. I'm a sellout or what you know.

[45:03] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[45:05] Laura Camien: But our culture does it too.

[45:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[45:07] Laura Camien: Like Green Day can be, you know, kind of cool and underground and then explode into popularity and then have the masses say, well, they must suck because so many people like them.

[45:19] Susan Blackwell: It's really just a trap. It's kind of a no-win trap.

[45:24] Laura Camien: Let us just stick with creative projects can be both artistic and successful, full stop.

[45:30] Susan Blackwell: I love it. Yes, a tension exists between art and commerce, but they can coexist.

[45:36] Laura Camien: You can get paid for your beautiful work, friends, and work you don't get paid for can also be beautiful. Both are true. We contain multitudes.

[45:45] Susan Blackwell: Next up, discovery. We often talk about the many ways people can discover the world of Blue Man through a show, an album, the website, an image, etc.

[45:56] Laura Camien: But the most important thing is that we allow them to discover it. Allow them to experience it without telling them what they are going to experience.

[46:06] Susan Blackwell: They will own their feelings about the show and feel more connected to it. Too much empty hype only sets up expectations.

[46:15] Laura Camien: Underpromise, over deliver.

[46:18] Susan Blackwell: Can I ask you a question?

[46:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:20] Susan Blackwell: I love this in theory. And at the same time, Blue Man Group was sort of built on a mystique.

[46:28] Laura Camien: And it was just sort of like, what is that weird show? This is before we all saw it, right? If you're somebody who is marketing something, and people don't, there's a certain amount of telling that that you need to do to make sure that you're finding the right audience for you.

[46:45] Susan Blackwell: So how do you strike that balance?

[46:47] Laura Camien: Marketing, Maven, Laura Camien.

[46:49] Susan Blackwell: Well, I totally hear what you're saying. And I think that the fine distinction is that we should avoid telling people how they're going to feel because you can't dictate that.

[47:01] Laura Camien: Amen.

[47:02] Susan Blackwell: Amen.

[47:03] Laura Camien: Right. And so what you can do is show them.

[47:11] Laura Camien: Let me give a little example. Like we would get talked into things from local promoters, like you have to tell people that it's funny.

[47:18] Susan Blackwell: So they'd slap a poll quote onto an image, and the photo would be this like stoic, intense blue man face, and the pull quote would say hilarious.

[47:27] Laura Camien: Yes. There's nothing hilarious about it, and you can't just tell people something is funny and they'll trust it. They need to decide that they think it's funny, and something about the image or the video or the way you write your copy makes them think this might be really funny.

[47:46] Susan Blackwell: I'm open to this.

[47:47] Laura Camien: So that's what I mean by don't tell them because you can't just tell it's like imagine going to a job interview.

[47:56] Susan Blackwell: I would say this all the time in media training. Try to go to a job interview and just like stone cold, like, I'm a really funny person, and I'm very thoughtful, and I'm enjoyable to be around.

[48:09] Laura Camien: First date or a first date.

[48:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And people will be like, I think the jury's still out on that.

[48:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[48:16] Susan Blackwell: I hear the words you've said, but I don't get a sense from you that you are fun to be around, you're funny, or that you're thoughtful.

[48:24] Laura Camien: So your copy, your video, your imagery has to be the thing that you want them.

[48:32] Laura Camien: My mantra through the years for both PR and marketing became it's not what you say, it's what you convey.

[48:39] Susan Blackwell: Come on, put that in the pamphlet.

[48:41] Laura Camien: But that's gonna go in our pamphlet. That gets its own page.

[48:44] Susan Blackwell: Because that didn't that didn't make it in there, but that is um, that's just something I was like, I don't know how to explain it any better.

[48:52] Laura Camien: Yeah, we worry so much about the exact words that come out of our mouth, but we don't think about the energy behind them.

[48:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so instead, we try to focus on, you know, for like the guys, we would work on just being yourself, conveying the joy and the wonder of the show.

[49:09] Laura Camien: So even I would tell the guys, like, even if you do a whole interview and you never got around to saying what the show is about, the guys were clearly having so much fun together, making each other laugh.

[49:22] Susan Blackwell: The viewer is listening, is like leaning in and just thinking, I don't know who those guys are or what they are doing, but I want to find out.

[49:31] Laura Camien: I want to know more. You have to let people discover it themselves by being it, by conveying it.

[49:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[49:39] Laura Camien: Okay, next one. Big one, big one.

[49:42] Laura Camien: Marketing is an extension of our creativity.

[49:47] Susan Blackwell: Marketing is an extension of our creativity.

[49:50] Laura Camien: Our advertising should be an extension of or an introduction to the excitement of the project.

[49:57] Susan Blackwell: What would Blue Man do in the medium of TV?

[49:59] Laura Camien: What blue man image would evoke the emotion and excitement of the show in a particular ad?

[50:05] Susan Blackwell: Trust the inherent power of the blue man character and image.

[50:08] Laura Camien: Don't be afraid to turn the concept of advertising on its ear.

[50:12] Susan Blackwell: This was really everything. The marketing of the show was also creative.

[50:19] Laura Camien: And I think this is something that we should all really think about when you're promoting yourself or your work, ask yourself not what is everyone else doing, but what is the best way to show people the essence of who I am and what I do?

[50:39] Susan Blackwell: It might be an excerpt from your show or your book.

[50:42] Laura Camien: It might be a totally new piece that's intended only for this purpose.

[50:46] Susan Blackwell: It might be on all the platforms everyone else uses.

[50:51] Laura Camien: It might be only on one platform, the way you want to do it.

[50:56] Susan Blackwell: Suze and I, we were, this is key. You know, we were just talking to an incredible artist a few weeks ago, and she's a potential client, but she was talking about how she felt limited in her ability to tackle all the apps and the tech side of things.

[51:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[51:13] Susan Blackwell: And we talked about making what feels like a weakness into a strength.

[51:21] Laura Camien: Make it your thing.

[51:23] Susan Blackwell: Make it your thing.

[51:24] Laura Camien: Pick one place to be and tell the world if they want to find you, they can find you here.

[51:30] Susan Blackwell: They don't need to know it's because you don't have any interest in or don't feel like you can conquer, you know, seven different apps.

[51:38] Laura Camien: They don't need to know that. What they need to know is that you made a choice.

[51:42] Susan Blackwell: This is the one place they can find you.

[51:44] Laura Camien: If you have dyslexia and writing blurbs about your products is challenging, like enough of a roadblock that you just won't do it, try instead to turn it into your thing.

[51:57] Susan Blackwell: Maybe you describe every piece of jewelry you make with three words and only three words.

[52:03] Laura Camien: Elegant, dangly, aquamarine.

[52:07] Susan Blackwell: That's it.

[52:08] Laura Camien: Like just make it your thing. Three-word descriptions.

[52:12] Susan Blackwell: Don't apologize for it. Don't think it's a weakness.

[52:17] Laura Camien: This is really the game. Like if you're gonna be on a social media platform or have a blog or a substack, how would you do it?

[52:26] Susan Blackwell: How would your artistry and creativity express itself authentically on that platform?

[52:33] Laura Camien: I just keep thinking about the artist that you're talking about. And I was like, if typing is laborious for you, if you have a smartphone, just open up the camera.

[52:44] Susan Blackwell: If you can just talk and say, I made this, I love this. Look at this, look at the way it catches the light.

[52:53] Laura Camien: Just having your Etsy shop or having your website, like there's one place where people can find you.

[53:00] Susan Blackwell: First of all, I love the idea of that. And I love the compression that it potentially creates, but also turning your whatever you perceive as your sharing the light, like deficiency or your weakness into something that is just like this is the couture way that I share the light of my art.

[53:21] Laura Camien: I love that. I think it's exciting and it's fun to do.

[53:25] Susan Blackwell: It's a creative act.

[53:26] Laura Camien: It's a creative act.

[53:27] Susan Blackwell: It's a creative act.

[53:28] Laura Camien: And it is something like we grappled with at Blue Man at every turn because a million TV shows, a million opportunities, people just come and be like, you could just do blah.

[53:39] Susan Blackwell: Why not just this?

[53:41] Laura Camien: Because we want to do it the way we would do it, that it excites us, it feels authentic to us, it feels interesting to us, and we don't want to just slap something out there because that's how everyone else is doing it.

[53:55] Susan Blackwell: All right, next up, respect for the consumer slash the golden rule.

[53:59] Laura Camien: Treat the consumer the way in which we would like to be treated.

[54:02] Susan Blackwell: We don't talk down to them or insult their intelligence.

[54:06] Laura Camien: We don't need to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

[54:09] Susan Blackwell: We can challenge ourselves and others to think beyond the most obvious, easiest choice.

[54:16] Laura Camien: So, Suze, this is where this like we would have this no blue puns thing.

[54:22] Susan Blackwell: If I had a nickel for every blue pun I have heard in my lifetime, I'd be retired.

[54:28] Laura Camien: There'd be no spark.

[54:32] Susan Blackwell: No, I'm grateful that I am not.

[54:34] Laura Camien: Um, and that there is a spark pile.

[54:36] Susan Blackwell: But seriously, like marketing firms, promotional people, they just love to come to us with what they thought were just very clever.

[54:45] Laura Camien: Blue light special, got the blues, look what just blew into town.

[54:50] Susan Blackwell: And it really depressed us because it felt very surface level.

[54:55] Laura Camien: And we were always like, can they not see that the character is more than just the color blue?

[55:01] Susan Blackwell: I can see how helpful this document was to save time when you were just like, hey, before a week before our meeting, yes, I just want to send you this attachment so that you can save yourself a lot of late nights writing blue puns.

[55:16] Laura Camien: That's right.

[55:17] Susan Blackwell: Say, yeah, don't do it because we're not gonna go for it.

[55:20] Laura Camien: We're not going for it.

[55:21] Susan Blackwell: But we had to show the world, we had to do the work and make sure that our messaging was smarter, even if that meant that some people didn't get the joke.

[55:32] Laura Camien: You have to trust that the people who are meant for you will not pass you by.

[55:38] Susan Blackwell: You are speaking to your people, you are a siren call that will bring your people to you.

[55:45] Laura Camien: It's true of your work too. If your marketing and your promotions are true to you, you will call the right people to your work.

[55:55] Susan Blackwell: If your marketing makes you cringe, if it doesn't represent you, you're not going to connect with the people you are meant to connect with, and you will have regrets.

[56:05] Laura Camien: Yeah, you'll feel like you spent so much time making a beautiful work of art, and then you didn't give enough thought to how you might share it with the world in a way that makes you proud.

[56:18] Susan Blackwell: But if you make your promotional materials as creative, as intelligent, as funny, as vulnerable as you are, you're gonna reach the right people.

[56:27] Laura Camien: All right, the next one is true in so many ways. Relationships are everything.

[56:30] Susan Blackwell: Yes, they take time, but it's time we can't afford not to spend.

[56:36] Laura Camien: The copy editor of the local newspaper may one day be the head theater critic or a segment producer, etc.

[56:43] Susan Blackwell: We make sure people feel great about Blue Man day in and day out.

[56:47] Laura Camien: We spend the time and energy it takes to educate and hopefully inspire our partners to better understand who we are and take the time to understand how special they are too.

[57:00] Susan Blackwell: I truly believe that Blue Man continued to benefit for decades from following this guideline.

[57:06] Laura Camien: All of these people bookers, critics, segment producers, TV writers, advertising execs, they are human beings trying to do the best that they can at their jobs.

[57:17] Susan Blackwell: And if you make their jobs easier and make the experience pleasant, they will remember you, they will appreciate you, and they will want to work with you or cover you again in the future.

[57:29] Laura Camien: This is true of all things, friends. One of our staple rules: don't be a dick.

[57:31] Susan Blackwell: Don't be a dick.

[57:36] Laura Camien: Don't be a dick.

[57:37] Susan Blackwell: Too many people are because they think they can be.

[57:40] Laura Camien: Um, I think I told you my name, my nickname in the marketing office was the Velvet Hammer.

[57:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[57:48] Laura Camien: And I have to give credit to my mentor, Manny Egratius for this because he taught us all to deliver what he would call a no that feels like a yes.

[58:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes.

[58:10] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes a no that feels like a yes is turning someone down for what they requested and offering up something that you would prefer instead. So in essence, we're not just responding yes or no to the ideas that are presented to us. We are active participants in this entire process, and we can gently guide people to places they did not know they wanted to go because they didn't know what was possible, but you did. So when someone approaches you with an offer that you don't think is a great idea, challenge yourself to counter their idea with a different one, one you would really like to do. Let's say you get invited to host a gig, but what you've really been working on is a song and dance that you would like to perform.

Why not propose? I don't think I'm in for this hosting gig, but I've got something I'd love to contribute, I'd love to perform in this way. Or I'll host and I'd like a performance spot, etc. But be bold because people don't know. It really is creative problem solving. There's so much of this.

[58:39] Laura Camien: Yes.

[59:19] Susan Blackwell: Is an ex it really is an extension of creativity.

[59:19] Laura Camien: Yes.

[59:24] Susan Blackwell: It really is.

[59:25] Laura Camien: Okay. Next up, art is priceless yet accessible. The value of the show and the entertainment it brings to people is priceless. It cannot be measured. We do not diminish the value of the experience we offer. However, we also believe art should be accessible. We must respond to the economy and the community we live in. So at the time, this one was about not discounting, but that's not even possible these days. There's like dynamic pricing, you know, for everything. But what I think the more important takeaway for this moment is art is priceless. We do not diminish the value of the experience we offer. Doesn't mean we can't discount. It just means that we believe in what we are doing. We can offer dynamic pricing.

We can offer scholarships. We can offer free programming like a podcast available to everyone, and offer higher touch VIP backstage experiences for others. All of it is viable. But more importantly, we understand that our art has inherent value, and we do not speak or behave in a way that diminishes its value.

[1:00:25] Susan Blackwell: We do not speak or behave in a way that diminishes its value. That is worth practicing. That's worth practicing, friends. If you're out there struggling with believing that your art has value, you may want to adopt a mantra like the world is in need of what I have to offer. Or our prices are a bargain for the amount of transformation we provide. Or I offer my work to the world in a way that provides for my needs, compensates me fairly, and creates accessible options for all. So you can see how a lot of this really does require a shift in our mindset around marketing and promoting, but that it can in fact be an extension of our creativity. It can be fun. It can all of it can be creative. And Suze, I'm gonna tell you, I just saw the clock and I realized like I could go on and on.

I've got many more of these gems and things. I will just I will leave you with this one, and then um, you know, maybe we'll do another episode or more curriculum around this. We talk all about this in this in the Sparks File.

[1:01:54] Susan Blackwell: And before you before you jump into that, I'm struck. I always learned so much from you about this, Laura. Like, lucky us that you have all of this expertise and all of this experience, and it really I'm guilty. I'm the one of the people that you were describing. I remember especially a younger version of myself just being like, uh, we used to call it schmoozing. Oh, I've got to schmooze, which feels so old fashioned now. But this reframing of it is an ex it is part of the creative process.

[1:02:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, it deserves as much creative energy and attention. I think sometimes I forget that it is part of it. So I by the time I get to it, I'm like, oh no, I'm already army crawling across the finish line, the completion of the creative thing. But that's one of the things I've always really admired about Blue Man Group is that they somehow paced themselves so that they had energy to make really, really great content that you would see at the show, and then still had the capacity to create bespoke content for all of these appearances, and it blew my mind.

[1:03:12] Susan Blackwell: Thank you for noticing that, Suze, because that that was definitely a pain point that we eventually got better at addressing. Because just like all the rest of us, you are going to be like running out of gas as you approach your opening night or your book launch or whatever the case may be. And that's going to be the moment when hopefully your PR team or you are getting requests. And we finally, like, I remember Chris Wink, one of the original guys, and I just I just loved him for saying it. He was like, friends, like this isn't gonna change. We're about to open, you know, when we open the Vegas show, this last week here, when we are on our last leg and we are approaching opening, is when Cammy's gonna come to us and say, I've got the tonight show, I've got the today show, I've got local Vegas news in the mornings. You know, how are we gonna do these?

[1:04:09] Laura Camien: Yeah, and remembering that is part of the creative process. And it's good, it's a good thing, it's a joyful thing, it can be a fun thing, but like it's can be a wildly creative thing. Like you said, you know, pace yourself. I think it's why Blue Man Group is still 25 million years later. Yeah, it's still running largely on the goodwill of that. It just was everywhere you looked, every time you saw them, it was some fresh thing blowing your mind.

[1:04:42] Susan Blackwell: A lot of fresh things and a lot of fresh collaborations with artists, etc. I'll leave you with this last one. Um, like I said, there's many more, and we'll put it into some curriculum. Maybe we'll do some media training curriculum too, Suze.

[1:04:57] Laura Camien: Oh, Laura. That would be fun.

[1:04:58] Susan Blackwell: That's been in my spark. I still have when you media trained me.

[1:05:02] Laura Camien: Oh have we talked about this on the podcast? I still have my Laura Cambian mimeographed pamphlet on media training in my spark file.

[1:05:13] Susan Blackwell: Amazing amazing I've just learned so much from you not only today but like for decades.

[1:05:19] Laura Camien: Thank you Laura Cameron.

[1:05:21] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Suze. All right, this was a big one too that seems a little odd but this is how we ended the document the final uh philosophy call us crazy. Seriously it's okay we've been called that before we will survive if we pass this up if we try something new or if we disagree we are not afraid to not go along with the crowd. And I want to just say that again to underscore and reiterate you do not have to do marketing and promotion the way everyone else does it and you do not have to do everything that everyone else is doing. Just know that just know that and I think I would ask you know I've kind of woven in the what we make of it along the way but it's not a bad idea for you to think about what your values are how you would authentically approach any of this whether it be a social media platform or a blog or a website or only one of those things how would you do it in a way that is you?

[1:06:33] Laura Camien: I know that if Suze and I were to add another uh when we make our little spark file pamphlet, we will add another philosophy, specifically from the spark file. And I think I would add authenticity above all. Because as we created this business, we wanted to create a world where we could be ourselves and not have to put on any kind of persona in order to go to work each day or to sell our work to others. So as long as we're being ourselves, we're right on brand. That's just an example. That's something that's just part of the ethos of what we do. But it might be helpful for you, dear listeners, to think about how you might begin to approach your promotion with your values intact. Maybe even try writing down what your belief system is.

Try declaring what your ideal is, what is your North Star? And then see how much fun you can have following it. You might surprise yourself. These are just some of the some of the philosophies that guided Blue Man for many, many years. I think there's so many lessons to be learned from them. I tried to cram in as many as I could today. There's many more. There's so much to learn about how to build a business that focuses on your own individual talents and interests, how embracing your particular uniqueness can resonate for millions of people. Following your own true course, guided by your values, can pay off artistically and financially. For me personally, I know that working with Blue Man Group literally changed my life. And I am grateful for all of the lessons learned there.

[1:08:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Cam's. It's a high value spark. It's so fun. It's 10 pounds of learning in a five-pound bag.

[1:08:26] Laura Camien: It's decades of learning, actually.

[1:08:28] Susan Blackwell: It's decades. In a in what episode of the podcast. And this, I feel like this is an episode of the podcast. I could stand to as an artist, just listen to a couple times, maybe take notes.

[1:08:42] Laura Camien: Like you were working in it so much, you probably gained mastery and could hold all of this in your thinking simultaneously so that when an opportunity or a moment crossed your path, you could be like, this holds up and this doesn't for this reason. Like you grew it, like you participated in the living of it, the development of it, the growing of it, so that you it's like in your bones.

[1:09:09] Susan Blackwell: It's definitely in my DNA. But I feel like it's in yours as well. And a lot of this like title of show and the spark file, like a lot of this DNA is woven right through a lot of it.

[1:09:22] Laura Camien: I'm more of an old timey showman. A little carnival Parker.

[1:09:27] Susan Blackwell: Oh Laura, that was so great.

[1:09:31] Laura Camien: Oh, thanks.

[1:09:32] Susan Blackwell: Thanks. It was, you know, tip of the iceberg. But I hope it's helpful. And um, I know it can be a painful, a pain point for artists to start thinking about promotion, but maybe if we could take some steps towards like removing the dread, removing the dread, and approaching it as a creative uh part of the creative process.

[1:09:36] Laura Camien: Part of the creative process.

[1:09:55] Susan Blackwell: And if I'm gonna print anything on a shirt, you know it's gonna be authenticity above all.

[1:10:00] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:10:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh. I love that. Let's make shirts for the for the merch shop.

[1:10:05] Laura Camien: Let's do it. Authenticity above all.

[1:10:07] Susan Blackwell: I love it. Friends, I think that's it.

[1:10:11] Laura Camien: I think so.

[1:10:12] Susan Blackwell: This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen up if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, including your marketing plan, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, conveniently named thesparkfile.com.

[1:10:38] Laura Camien: That was a genius move, Suze, on your part. Ready?

[1:10:41] Susan Blackwell: Conveniently named. Hey, listen, we will also take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently. You can follow us on social at the Sparks File and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really does help other listeners find us. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, tell the world you didn't like it. Make a pamphlet on your ditto machine. There's no bad press, right, CamS?

[1:11:01] Laura Camien: Wrong.

[1:11:17] Susan Blackwell: But first you have to find a ditto machine on the show.

[1:11:20] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:11:21] Susan Blackwell: If you find a ditto machine, you have to have it service. You have to find the chemicals that a ditto machine uses to make your pamphlet. There's a lot of barriers to entry on this one.

[1:11:31] Laura Camien: There really, really are. Best wishes. Good luck. Listen, if that or anything else lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking on your door and shine the light of that thing. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a blame.

[1:11:53] Susan Blackwell: You know you gotta take it and make it ditto machine Juice. Good luck finding it.

[1:12:01] Laura Camien: Fire when I boke into something that inspires me. I dump it in my spark fire. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark fire. Spark fire. I jump into my spark fire. Spark fire. Let's open up the spark fire.