This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, your Joey bag of donuts for creative inspiration.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:45] Laura Camien: If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:48] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome.

[0:50] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:54] Susan Blackwell: Where do I get one?

[0:55] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: These are such good questions, and we actually do have answers.

[1:00] Laura Camien: We do.

[1:01] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:07] Laura Camien: Here's the deal.

[1:07] Susan Blackwell: We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:10] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time or want to be making stuff all the time, you already know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:19] Susan Blackwell: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:33] Laura Camien: Or make some sense of it all.

[1:37] Susan Blackwell: Or a change of mind that can make a big change in our lives.

[1:43] Laura Camien: Oh, every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:51] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might just influence your own trajectory.

[1:55] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:00] Laura Camien: Hi, Kami.

[2:02] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Blackwell.

[2:04] Laura Camien: Oh, Cammy, and I'm so happy to hear your voice.

[2:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm happy to hear your voice too, Susie Q.

[2:13] Laura Camien: Cams, I'm so excited to talk to you.

[2:15] Susan Blackwell: I've been saving some things to talk to you about.

[2:19] Laura Camien: Saving it for the pod.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, there is much to catch up on.

[2:24] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: First of all, if you listened to our episode on Armchair Treasure Hunts, and you have heard the story of the Forrest Fenn treasure.

[2:34] Laura Camien: If you haven't listened to that episode, shame on you.

[2:37] Susan Blackwell: How dare you go back and listen right now?

[2:41] Laura Camien: Um, but if you don't want to, here's a quick recap about Forrest Fenn and his treasure.

[2:45] Susan Blackwell: Forrest Fenn, who has one of the greatest names really in real life or in fiction, is this enigmatic Santa Fe art and antiquities dealer who says that he hid a $2 million treasure in 2010.

[3:03] Laura Camien: So Ben, now 89, created this treasure hunt that saw some 350,000 people from around the world race into the mountain wilderness to follow strange clues that he wove into this 24-line poem, which he published in his autobiography, The Thrill of the Chase.

[3:22] Susan Blackwell: The treasure is this 42-pound chest, and it's loaded with gold and artifacts and ancient jade carvings and antique coins.

[3:31] Laura Camien: In pursuit of this treasure over the last 10 years, some people quit their jobs, some people blew through their savings, some people ended their marriages, five men died.

[3:42] Susan Blackwell: Um, but on the bright side, there have been lots and lots and lots of people who got up off of their asses and they hunted for that treasure.

[3:49] Laura Camien: They went out into nature and they hunted for that treasure.

[3:52] Susan Blackwell: So on June 6th, in a blog post, Forrest Fenn announced that the treasure has been found.

[3:59] Laura Camien: But Forrest Fenn didn't say much.

[4:02] Susan Blackwell: Uh in his statement, he said it was under a canopy of stars in the lush forested vegetation of the Rocky Mountains and had not been moved from the spot where I hid it more than 10 years ago.

[4:14] Laura Camien: Um he refused to say exactly where it was found, and he would not reveal the identity of the finder.

[4:22] Susan Blackwell: All he would say is the guy who found it does not want his name mentioned.

[4:27] Laura Camien: And he said he's from back east.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: And that's about all he said.

[4:33] Laura Camien: Suze.

[4:34] Susan Blackwell: There, okay.

[4:35] Laura Camien: So of course, you know, I had to read more about this because I'm like so in it now.

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: So I read all of that the guy back east, the anonymous, blah, blah, blah.

[4:46] Laura Camien: Then I read the mystery is not over because another woman is coming forward and saying that that guy, she's filed the lawsuit against Forrest Fenn and the anonymous guy to say he stole the answer from her.

[5:02] Susan Blackwell: This is crazy.

[5:04] Laura Camien: It is crazy.

[5:05] Susan Blackwell: And I want to talk a little bit more about that.

[5:07] Laura Camien: So that woman is named Barbara Anderson.

[5:11] Susan Blackwell: She's a Chicago lawyer who claims that she spent tens of thousands of dollars on 20 trips to New Mexico, and that she had communicated her findings in dozens of emails to Forrest Fenn over the years.

[5:24] Laura Camien: Okay, I read that much, and I was like, it seems a little, it seemed a little extreme.

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: Just reading that much.

[5:33] Laura Camien: That she is suing Forrest Fenn and suing this unknown defendant, who, as you said, she alleges that her computer was hacked and this solution she came up with was stolen by this person who's been threatening her with texts over the last few months.

[5:50] Susan Blackwell: And so she has filed the suit in a Chicago federal court.

[5:54] Laura Camien: And I'm just like really the spirit of the game.

[6:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[6:01] Laura Camien: Not really the spirit of the game.

[6:03] Susan Blackwell: Um it's not.

[6:04] Laura Camien: And her claim is that that the that this unidentified hunter found the precise location of the treasure, not because they solved the puzzle, but because they intentionally hacked her emails and her computer and stalked her physically at the location site.

[6:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[6:21] Laura Camien: But my whole thing is like if you had invented Facebook, then you would have invented Facebook.

[6:26] Susan Blackwell: It's like if you knew where the treasure was, you would have gone and gotten the treasure.

[6:31] Laura Camien: If this person was physically stalking you at the location where the treasure was hidden, it's not like you had your hands on the treasure chest and somebody came up behind you.

[6:42] Susan Blackwell: It's I don't know.

[6:43] Laura Camien: It seemed my gut in the little bit that I read, I was like, this seems a little wacky.

[6:49] Susan Blackwell: I hope that more will be revealed.

[6:51] Laura Camien: I I think I read another thing that that Forrest Fenn said he will be talking more.

[6:57] Susan Blackwell: He promises like more information to come.

[7:00] Laura Camien: Because of course, a lot of people are like, Can you at least just tell us like people are fucking telling more about where it was?

[7:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:08] Laura Camien: That's right.

[7:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:09] Laura Camien: And I was thinking about it.

[7:09] Susan Blackwell: So it's sort of like these people that have been really invested in this in all different ways, invested in time, invested in travel, invested financially, invested in their imagination.

[7:19] Laura Camien: They're like, this is the end of the story.

[7:19] Susan Blackwell: The end of the story is a guy from Back East found it, but he doesn't want me to say anymore.

[7:27] Laura Camien: I was like, this is this has been such an interesting creative narrative.

[7:33] Susan Blackwell: So they're like, I want to read the end of the book.

[7:36] Laura Camien: You can't just not give me the last chapter of the book.

[7:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:39] Laura Camien: I I definitely like at first when you texted me and we were texting back and forth about this, I was like, I have to know what's in the chest.

[7:47] Susan Blackwell: And so I feel a little satisfied that I did learn more about that.

[7:50] Laura Camien: Like the chest itself is like made out of bronze, and the chest itself is 20 pounds and the contents are 22 pounds.

[8:00] Susan Blackwell: And it includes, you know, like literally ancient necklaces.

[8:05] Laura Camien: It's exactly what you imagine it's like a treasure chest.

[8:09] Susan Blackwell: Treasure chest would be.

[8:11] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[8:11] Susan Blackwell: There's like gold coins and like what are they?

[8:14] Laura Camien: There was a name for it.

[8:15] Susan Blackwell: It's not ingots, but there's um these great big pieces of raw gold.

[8:19] Laura Camien: There's these uh ancient jade figurines and stuff like that.

[8:23] Susan Blackwell: It really is like and it's like your idea of a cartoon treasure chest.

[8:28] Laura Camien: I know, but it's awesome.

[8:29] Susan Blackwell: More about this woman.

[8:30] Laura Camien: So this um, this woman who is filing this lawsuit said that she refuses to give up the search.

[8:39] Susan Blackwell: And I was reading this article in the New York Post, and they spoke to her from a campsite in New Mexico where she is, I guess.

[8:47] Laura Camien: But then I was like, if you're refusing to give up the search, then that means that you're insinuating that it's still out there.

[8:55] Susan Blackwell: And if you've solved it, then walk right up to it and pick it up.

[8:59] Laura Camien: Like this is where it feels like there's holes in her story.

[9:03] Susan Blackwell: But apparently she's made these many, these 20 plus trips searching for the treasure, accompanied by her dog Cupcake.

[9:10] Laura Camien: And my hope is that someone please, please, please base a character on this woman in the TV pilot you write about a ragtag band of armchair treasure hunters and their mascot Cupcake the Dog.

[9:23] Susan Blackwell: Suze, did you see the documentary?

[9:26] Laura Camien: I just came across it now.

[9:27] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure it's on uh now because of someone winning it.

[9:31] Laura Camien: But when you were researching, did you watch the documentary called like Fen Fenn's Explorers or something?

[9:38] Susan Blackwell: No.

[9:39] Laura Camien: So I literally just saw it moments before we uh got on to record today.

[9:45] Susan Blackwell: So I was like, oh my god, I gotta watch that.

[9:48] Laura Camien: Um so she made it where did she do that documentary on Amazon Prime.

[9:53] Susan Blackwell: I hope it's really good.

[9:55] Laura Camien: I hope it's really good too.

[9:56] Susan Blackwell: I can't vouch for it though, because I didn't turn it on yet.

[9:59] Laura Camien: Um, speaking of really, really, really good things to watch.

[10:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh, if you recall, gentle listeners, the episode that Cammy and did, that spark that Cammy and did about self-reliance.

[10:16] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[10:17] Susan Blackwell: You told us about a TV show called Alone.

[10:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[10:21] Susan Blackwell: If you didn't listen to that episode, it's it's waiting for you wherever you get your podcasts.

[10:25] Laura Camien: And in that episode, Cammy and you told us about this TV show now, in its sixth season that I had never even heard of.

[10:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yeah.

[10:32] Laura Camien: Where they essentially drop 10 survivalists in some remote location.

[10:36] Susan Blackwell: They're not together.

[10:37] Laura Camien: They are individuals, and then not knowing how many contestants are still in the game and not knowing who has tapped out.

[10:43] Susan Blackwell: They just try to survive alone in that wilderness as long as they can until the last man or woman standing wins a half a million dollars.

[10:51] Laura Camien: Cammian, we finally, finally, finally found this show and we are obsessed.

[10:59] Susan Blackwell: You're watching it.

[11:00] Laura Camien: You're watching it.

[11:02] Susan Blackwell: I'm so excited.

[11:04] Laura Camien: Cammy, I'm so excited.

[11:06] Susan Blackwell: It's so funny.

[11:06] Laura Camien: When you were telling me about it, I was like, I've never heard of this show.

[11:09] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, wait a minute, what?

[11:11] Laura Camien: Wait a minute.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: How does this work?

[11:13] Laura Camien: And now you must have been like, you dum-dum.

[11:16] Susan Blackwell: That show is so interesting.

[11:19] Laura Camien: I'm so excited that you're watching it.

[11:21] Susan Blackwell: I thought you were bringing it up because season six is now finally, finally airing.

[11:29] Laura Camien: And it's in the Antarctic.

[11:33] Susan Blackwell: And they've changed the rules just a tiny bit.

[11:36] Laura Camien: This instead of um, yeah, instead of being like the last one.

[11:41] Susan Blackwell: It used to be like if you were the last one to survive, they would come and get you and say, hey, we're taking you home.

[11:48] Laura Camien: You're the last one.

[11:49] Susan Blackwell: You won.

[11:50] Laura Camien: And you wouldn't know if that was like 30 days in or you know, 70 days in.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: In the Antarctic, you must make it one hundred days.

[12:02] Laura Camien: No, this is the this is how they set it up.

[12:05] Susan Blackwell: You make it a hundred days in the Antarctic, which is longer than anyone's made it anywhere.

[12:10] Laura Camien: But so everyone's counting the days now, and it's not about like necessarily being the last one, but you must make it a hundred days and you get a million dollars.

[12:10] Susan Blackwell: A million.

[12:20] Laura Camien: Oh a million.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: And in the first episode, people have already encountered black bears and wolverines in the first episode.

[12:29] Laura Camien: It is Cammy, I'm telling you, there's something for everyone in this show.

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: Our entire household loves it.

[12:37] Laura Camien: And I can't tell you how hard it is to get three adults to agree on what they want to do.

[12:44] Susan Blackwell: Everybody loves it.

[12:45] Laura Camien: There's something for everybody.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: And it's crazy because they introduce a character, no spoilers, but they introduce a character.

[12:52] Laura Camien: And I was like, I haven't met all 10 survivalists, but my money is on that character.

[12:52] Susan Blackwell: My money is on that person.

[12:59] Laura Camien: They look at the shelter that they built.

[13:02] Susan Blackwell: Look at the look at their skills.

[13:04] Laura Camien: Look at it's amazing.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: And all I want to say is you eat one bad piece of muskrat meat and you're fucked.

[13:13] Laura Camien: Fuck it.

[13:14] Susan Blackwell: That's it.

[13:15] Laura Camien: You lose your little piece of flint or whatever you are using as a fire starter, and you're fucked.

[13:21] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[13:23] Laura Camien: I mean, one little thing, that's it.

[13:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:27] Laura Camien: It's truly amazing.

[13:29] Susan Blackwell: We love it.

[13:30] Laura Camien: We're so thankful that you recommended it.

[13:32] Susan Blackwell: And um, so it's now playing on Netflix.

[13:35] Laura Camien: So we just went ahead and jumped in with season six, but we're going to, I'm sure eventually we'll go back, we'll start at the beginning and we'll we'll enjoy all of it.

[13:44] Susan Blackwell: But that's our new evening treat is that we get to watch an episode or two of Alone on Netflix.

[13:50] Laura Camien: I'm so excited.

[13:52] Susan Blackwell: Here's another fun update.

[13:54] Laura Camien: This is in reference to the making change spark that I have done.

[13:59] Susan Blackwell: Making change spark one and part due.

[14:02] Laura Camien: So my friend Chris Cruthers, who is a performer, he's an entrepreneur, he's this kick ass fitness trainer.

[14:09] Susan Blackwell: He did something extraordinary.

[14:12] Laura Camien: And though I don't think he's heard that episode or those sparks, it was in complete alignment with the making change formula.

[14:21] Susan Blackwell: If you didn't listen to that episode, I seriously question your commitment to this podcast.

[14:26] Susan Blackwell: Just kidding, just kidding. Let me catch you up. So here's the formula. You want to pick a cause that really lights your fire. For a moment, you want to absolve yourself of all other responsibilities that you may feel are overwhelming you and the world right now. You want to assess your talents or gifts, choose which of those talents or gifts you'd like to exercise now, and then sort of braid it all together. So here's how Chris, just completely intuitively and not even knowing the secret making change formula. Here's how he rocked that formula. So Chris works at Mark Fisher Fitness. You've heard me talk about it before, my beloved gym. And as a gift to that community, the people that work there have been using their gifts and talents to keep people sane.

So one person might do a cooking show on Zoom, or like if they do magic tricks, they'll share magic tricks or whatever they have to share. So for instance, our friend Ting has been doing crafting sessions. And Ting and Dixie Longate partnered this week to craft together and fundraise and talk about Tupperware, but they were fundraising for Black Trans Advocacy Coalition. So it's just gorgeous. So Chris wanted to do something, Chris Cruthers, and he wanted to make an impact, but he is in a rural location. And so he wasn't sure how do you make an impact if you can't go and protest? How do you make an impact if you're not living in a city? So he decided what he wanted to do is host a dance party.

Chris loves to dance. Chris loves a wedding reception. He felt like we all just need a little more joy in our lives right now. And he felt like the number of attendees to his virtual dance party didn't really matter because everyone is separate and in their own home. So whether there were six people or 60 people in the little Zoom squares, he was like, great. So he thought he would just try and see how it went. So on Friday, March 27th at 5:30 p.m., he hosted the first one. And he said about 25 or 30 people attended. It lasted about 30 minutes. And it was just a chance for people to celebrate getting through another quarantine week. And Chris and his husband Scott turned their little house into a nightclub.

They used their plant lights to turn their house hot pink. And they had some outdoor lights from their wedding, which they strung up to give it that club feel. And Scott, Chris's husband Scott, he went up to their, they have a loft bedroom, which is visible from where Chris was down in the living room. So Scott goes up to their loft, which is actually their bedroom, and he used their dresser to pretend it was two turntables, the old ones and twos. And then they called him DJ PJ. And he pretends like he's the DJ. And then after their first one, Chris figured out how to optimize the sound. So he plays the music through Spotify on his computer and he shares the audio directly through Zoom so that people can pump up the jams and it sounds really good, and people cast it up onto their TVs.

So they did the first one, people loved it, and they decided that they wanted to do it every week for the foreseeable future. So every week, Chris sets a theme. So the themes have been like outer space or beach party or the great outdoors or let it glow, which was all neon. And you have to know that the people in this community, the Mark Fisher Fitness community, they are such creative, awesome weirdos. And they have totally poured their creativity into this dance party, and they go full out with like sets and costumes and all different sorts of people attend. The youngest party person in attendance has been six days old. And then because people are quarantining with their families, there's 80 and 90-year-olds in this dance party.

And it's families and it's single people and it's couples and it's all of it. So this past one was on June 5th. It was party number 11. Again, it's about 30 minutes long. The theme was international delight, which sounds like a coffee flavor. But a few days before, Chris pledged to donate one dollar per Zoom square to the NAACP legal defense fund. Yes. That afternoon, yes, he mentioned it casually to our friend and his colleague, Nikki Switzer. And so Nikki said, I'll match you, Chris. And then Nikki put something up on Facebook, and six people from that posting said they'd match. And then what took place over the next several days was this explosion of generosity and this amazing demonstration of the power of community.

They had 61 people who pledged to match the one dollar per Zoom square. Oh my gosh. And 290 people showed up. So do the math thing. Oh my gosh. And then Chris's employer, Mark Fisher Fitness, agreed to match the total funds raised. And then they received this outpouring of individual donations. And then Nikki Switzer, our friend Nikki, researched every possible match they could get on the corporate level. And as a result, they were able to secure all these other matches from companies and organizations. Oh my gosh. Just by showing up to this free dance party. This is free, and anybody can attend as long as they have a computer or a device and some internet. Just by being there for free in your Zoom square, you were worth $61 in matched pledges.

Right away. Boom. Right. Which leads me to a side spark, which I meant to talk about making change, which, but I didn't, which is there's all sorts of ways that you can generate money for causes that you care about without like spending money or writing a check yourself. And that's one of those ways where you can like be in the right place at the right time and your presence is worth $61. So in the end, at their 30-minute free dance party for the NAACP legal defense fund, they earned $94,763. What? Yes. Yes. Yes. Amazing. Isn't that crazy? He said that as they were like jamming out and dancing, they are watching the numbers increase and increase, and they're all just like dancing and crying.

And he said they still can't believe it. He said that Chris said he recognizes that he initiated it, but he hasn't been able to wrap his mind around the fact that it grew in this way. He said he took that spark, he fanned it into a flame. And along with that community of people, they worked to create make this bonfire. And it really does. It speaks to the power of community. The power of math and exponential multiples, the power of action, which I want to say can look like so many different things. I know that there's this meme going around. I don't know the exact language, but it's sort of like if you wonder what you'd have been doing during the Holocaust or during the civil rights movement, you're doing it now.

And I understand the idea behind it, but I feel like it's a little reductive because we're in a different place than those, the people that were present for that. We're in a different place than they were then. We have more tech, we have more tools at our disposal, and we're in the middle of a global pandemic. So you have to decide for yourself what type of risk, like physical risk you're willing to take. And I think sometimes people think that live protesting is the only powerful way to make your voice heard. And I believe that there are so many other powerful ways to take action. And Chris's action and Nikki's actions are proof of that. Amazing. If you would like to join the dance party, you can.

You can go to, I'm gonna say it, but I'll spell it. It's ChrisCruthers.com slash dance party. C H R I S C R U T H E R S dot com slash dance party. And for right now, it's every Friday at 5:30 p.m. Eastern time. It's about 30 minutes long. It's a way for people to celebrate that you've gotten through another pandemic quarantine week. People come together with their community. You can be a part of that community. You can get your bop on. You can get transcendent. You can get cathartic and maybe even take a stand for something. So I wanted to share that little update. Because I am so proud of Chris and Nikki and Ting and all the people in that community and Dixie Longate and all the people who are doing awesome creative, sparkish activist things.

Really, really, really wonderful. Really incredible. I'm so excited. That got me really excited. And I will say, when I was like, I did the math and I was a wait a second. Do you know that with just like 200 and some dollars more, you would get to 95,000? He's like, I do. And so many people. We had to declare a cutoff point in time just to get to a total. But since even that number was established, so many people have topped that off and gone way past it. So it's actually bigger than like $95,000. Yeah. Just amazing. So amazing. Proud of all of you. And if you want to get into a dance party, I highly recommend it. And Chris Cruthers featuring DJ PJ on the ones and twos on the DJPJ. Amazing. Camps, is there anything else on the docket?

[24:17] Laura Camien: Ah, those you covered the things on my mind that were our retrospective. A look back. A look back and a look forward.

[24:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I'm ready for your spark.

[24:29] Laura Camien: Let me dig into this spark. So I want to hear it.

[24:32] Susan Blackwell: This spark originally came to me because, as we have mentioned, Cam's and I are taking business classes together. And as part of these classes, we were getting wicked smack.

[24:40] Laura Camien: Wicked smack.

[24:46] Susan Blackwell: We take these assessments. And one of the assessments was around growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Now, I like to think of myself as a very growth-minded person. And I fancy myself a curious person and a lifelong learner and a positive person. So when I heard the term growth mindset, I was like, yeah, that feels great. Growth mindset. That's on brand for me. And then Cam's, I took the assessment.

[25:13] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[25:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So for fun, I thought all of us could take a little assessment together. Cam's, I'm gonna ask you some questions, listeners, you beautiful sparklers. If you want to play along at home, I would love that. So here we go. Which mindset do you have? Answer these questions about, we'll say for the purposes of this about intelligence. I'm gonna read each statement and you decide whether you mostly agree with it or disagree with it. Okay, there's four of them. Here's number one.

[25:41] Susan Blackwell: Your intelligence is something very basic about you that can't change very much. Agree or disagree, Cam.

[25:50] Laura Camien: I disagree.

[25:52] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Number two, you can learn new things, but you can't really change how intelligent you are. Agree or disagree.

[25:58] Laura Camien: I disagree.

[26:00] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Number three, no matter how much intelligence you have, you can always change it quite a bit. Agree or disagree.

[26:10] Laura Camien: I agree.

[26:12] Susan Blackwell: And number four, you can always substantially change how intelligent you are. I agree or disagree.

[26:18] Laura Camien: I agree.

[26:19] Susan Blackwell: I think in fairness, that was the same question four different ways. But I'm not sure.

[26:23] Laura Camien: Kind of.

[26:25] Susan Blackwell: That's what it sounds like. Actually, questions one and two are the fixed mindset questions. Your intelligence is something very basic about you that you can't change very much. And you can learn new things, but you can't really change how intelligent you are. Those are a fixed mindset point of view. And questions three and four represent the growth mindset, meaning no matter how much intelligence you have, you can always change it up quite a bit, and you can always substantially change how intelligent you are. So those reflect a growth mindset. And I would say that you, in your responses, represent yourself as a growth mindset person. But you can be a mixture. We'll talk more about that in a second. Most people typically lean towards one or the other.

[27:07] Laura Camien: Um, but here's the jam.

[27:10] Susan Blackwell: What if I substituted words like sports ability? I'm gonna say this again. Your sports ability is something very basic about you that you can't change very much. I agree or disagree.

[27:25] Laura Camien: I would disagree.

[27:26] Susan Blackwell: You gotta remember my dad was a coach, so I feel like this is an unfortunate thing.

[27:30] Laura Camien: I know when I asked you that, I was like, you have been exposed to some things that I have not.

[27:36] Susan Blackwell: That's right. No, of course you can improve that.

[27:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[27:40] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so when I say if I would say something like you can always substantially change how your aptitude around sports, what would you say to that?

[27:51] Laura Camien: I would say agree. You can change it.

[27:54] Susan Blackwell: So this is where I feel like I remember on the assessment we took, it was specifically about somebody's basketball prowess. Like, and I was like, I think you kind of have the gifts you have with basketball. I don't think any I'm gonna be playing.

[28:10] Laura Camien: I'm not gonna be an all-star.

[28:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, but you can substitute in things like artistic talent, sports ability, business skill for the word intelligence. But it's not only about your abilities, it's also about your personal qualities too. So I'm gonna share some statements with you about personality and character. And Cam's, I want you to decide whether you mostly agree or mostly disagree with each one. Here we go.

[28:37] Laura Camien: Okay, okay.

[28:39] Susan Blackwell: You are a certain kind of person, and there's not much that can be done to really change that.

[28:53] Susan Blackwell: I agree.

[28:55] Laura Camien: You can do things differently, but the important parts of who you are can't really be changed.

[29:06] Susan Blackwell: You can do things differently, but the important things you can do is you can do things differently, but the important parts of who you are can't really be changed.

[29:16] Laura Camien: I'm gonna disagree.

[29:20] Susan Blackwell: And you can always change basic things about the kind of person you are.

[29:25] Laura Camien: I agree.

[29:27] Susan Blackwell: So here, one and three, those statements one and three are the fixed mindset statements, and two and four reflect the growth mindset.

[29:37] Laura Camien: But you kind of got tripped up where I got tripped.

[29:40] Susan Blackwell: I just in your hesitation.

[29:42] Laura Camien: Yeah, like I in your hesitation, I heard something I could be but projecting.

[29:48] Susan Blackwell: But when you can do things differently, but the important parts of who you are can't really be changed.

[29:55] Laura Camien: I struggled with that because I was like, isn't there like a center, like an essence, this little flame that burns inside of me that that is who you are?

[30:08] Susan Blackwell: That is who I am.

[30:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:11] Laura Camien: Yes.

[30:11] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. So that's the part where I was like, uh I think I think that's but that represents I think that feels like it may represent like sort of a fixed mindset point of view.

[30:23] Laura Camien: Um those are tricky.

[30:27] Susan Blackwell: What are we gonna say?

[30:28] Laura Camien: Those are those are just I mean, it's tricky because um assessments like that are really I think difficult because you're gonna always like I want to pick apart the question and say, well, what do you mean by who you are?

[30:42] Susan Blackwell: Um if you believe that you are an assemblage of behaviors and characteristics, well then yeah, I guess you can change all of those.

[30:52] Laura Camien: You can change your behavior and you can change um, you know, you can change certain aspects of yourself.

[31:01] Susan Blackwell: So I I don't know. I think sometimes it's easy for like I got stuck on some of the questions on those assessments as well, as like the introvert, introvert one.

[31:11] Laura Camien: And you know, I think I I think I told you like there was a question about like at a party, would you be, you know, someone who's talking to everyone or alone in a corner or something like that?

[31:22] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, well, if I was at the party, I'd be talking to everyone, but you're not mentioning how hard it will be to get me to go to the party in the first place.

[31:33] Laura Camien: Um, because I'm like, you're not gonna get me there. I'm gonna be at home alone in a corner.

[31:39] Susan Blackwell: Like I was just like, there's some there's some faulty questions here.

[31:43] Laura Camien: And the other, the other piece, well, it's pretty specific in the assessment that we took. Like I said, there's that piece about like do you believe like your sports ability, you know, was like really, really specific.

[31:55] Susan Blackwell: Whereas if you filled in sports ability with creative ability or intelligence, I may have a different answer.

[32:05] Laura Camien: Um but when when uh when I got my assessment back, and even in listening to these questions again, I I saw how fixed my mindset was. It was more fixed than I suspected, and it gave me a little bit of an uh-oh feeling because I want to grow as much as I can in this lifetime, and especially now, because this is a time when there is so much learning and growth happening in society as a whole, and in each of us as individuals, potential growth anyway, and it feels like high stakes and it feels very important.

[32:43] Susan Blackwell: So I was like, I'm gonna dig into this and I'm gonna learn something about it, and I want to see if there's anything that I can do to shift it.

[32:51] Laura Camien: Oh, which leads me to mindset perspective to take about it.

[32:58] Susan Blackwell: I'm trying, you're doing it, you're doing it. Before I get too far ahead of myself, let me say that uh my spark sources today include good old Wikipedia, an article on edglossary.org, an article on brain pickings, um, the great brain pickings that we love so much, and predominantly from the book Mindset by Carol Dweck.

[33:18] Laura Camien: So, first of all, who is Carol Dweck?

[33:20] Susan Blackwell: According to Wikipedia? Carol Dweck is an American psychologist. She is a professor of psychology at Stanford University, and she's also taught at Columbia University, Harvard University, and the University of Illinois.

[33:33] Laura Camien: She seems to be smart as fuck, and she has dedicated her life's work to this study of growth mindset versus fixed mindset.

[33:41] Susan Blackwell: And it was interesting because she talked a bit about why she was sparked to do this work and why she was sparked to devote her life to this. In her book Mindset, she tells the story about being in her sixth grade class at PS 153 in Brooklyn, New York.

[33:57] Laura Camien: And she writes, the fixed mindset was really stamped in by Mrs. Wilson, my sixth grade teacher. She believed that people's IQ scores told the whole story of who they were. We were seated around the room in IQ order. And only the highest IQ students could be trusted to carry the flag, clap the erasers, or take a note to the principal.

[34:20] Susan Blackwell: Aside from the daily stomach aches she provoked with her judgmental stance, she was creating a mindset in which everyone in the class had one consuming goal. Look smart, don't look dumb.

[34:33] Laura Camien: I know, chilling.

[34:35] Susan Blackwell: Chilling.

[34:37] Laura Camien: And I bet if each of us looked into our hearts and into our histories, we could probably point to our own experiences that, you know, mirror something like that.

[34:47] Susan Blackwell: She said in a 2015 interview on one hand, I didn't believe that a score on a test was that important. On the other hand, every student wants to succeed in the framework that's established. So looking back, I think that glorification of IQ was a pivotal point in my development.

[35:05] Laura Camien: And that, my friends, is how a spark is born.

[35:09] Susan Blackwell: It's so interesting that, you know, she literally has spent her life like exploring this and trying to move her own mindset and also sort of evangelizing about the possibility of it to other people. Um, but let me take a moment to define these two mindsets.

[35:27] Laura Camien: So here we go.

[35:29] Susan Blackwell: In a fixed mindset, people believe that their basic qualities, like their intelligence or talent are simply fixed traits. They spend their time documenting their intelligence or talent instead of developing them. They also believe that talent alone creates success without effort. A fixed mindset assumes that our character and creative ability are static givens, which we can't change in any meaningful way. And success is the affirmation of that inherent intelligence, an assessment of how those givens measure up against an equally fixed standard. Striving for success and avoiding failure at all costs becomes a way of maintaining the sense of being smart or skilled.

[36:15] Laura Camien: So I find that so interesting because if you do believe that whatever the talent or gift is, intelligence, sports ability, creative ability, leadership ability, uh, your ability to learn as a student, your ability to be in a relationship, like a romantic relationship and a friendship. Like if you think that those things are fixed, and I don't, I don't, but in some of those cases, I'm like where I've had less exposure to it. I'm I'm like, I think it's pretty fixed. Like you have the cards you're dealt. But uh if you believe that, you would really have to, I feel like you'd always be working against the feeling, and I guess I have felt this, that you have you have as much as you have in your cup from the outset, and it's not gonna get any more full. So you kind of have to, you know, either apologize for it or defend it, or it's a bummer.

[37:14] Susan Blackwell: It's just a fucking bummer.

[37:16] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think it also can be, and I I've seen it uh not so much in my life in New York, but in other places where it can be a re like kind of an excuse for not having done certain things because you know I didn't get those skills, and so therefore I don't have to work hard for it because I can just sit back and say, Oh, well, I didn't get that, I didn't get that in my bucket.

[37:43] Susan Blackwell: Um that's yeah, kind of a defense mechanism too.

[37:48] Laura Camien: Because I should try.

[37:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[37:50] Laura Camien: It's a defense mechanism.

[37:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's something convenient to blame, you know, that on.

[37:56] Laura Camien: My friend Dan Marshall, I was just mentioned to him that I was like working on the spark, and he said he has his theory. I shouldn't maybe shouldn't name him. I was I was speaking to a nameless friend, and they were saying that like people who don't believe in evolution. He's like, How would you have a growth mindset if you don't believe that we are capable of evolution?

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, which I thought was really, really interesting.

[38:22] Laura Camien: I just don't even think evolving is in the cards for anybody.

[38:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I thought that was super interesting. Um alternatively, let's talk about growth mindset.

[38:32] Laura Camien: In growth mindset, people believe that their most basic abilities can be developed through dedication and hard work. Brains and talents are just a starting point. A growth mindset thrives on challenge and sees failure not as evidence of unintelligence, but as a heartening springboard for growth and for stretching our existing abilities.

[38:56] Susan Blackwell: So, yes, you may have been dealt some cards, but then it's about how you play the cards. You know, that description of growth mindset is like the very, very tippy top ideal because I definitely think I have a growth mindset and still find failure to be so uncomfortable. And it's something I'm working on, I'm literally trying to grow to embrace the idea of failing being okay.

[39:22] Laura Camien: Yes, you and I are in the same growth boat with that.

[39:25] Susan Blackwell: And I feel like if that will that will be our life's work.

[39:25] Laura Camien: That will be our life's work, Carol Dweck.

[39:31] Susan Blackwell: Out of these two mindsets, which we manifest from a very early age, springs a great deal of our behavior, our relationship with success and failure in both professional and personal contexts, and ultimately our capacity for happiness. There's this really great infographic that um accompanies the brain pickings article, and it illustrates that I'm gonna read to you what it illustrates, but it's a beautiful little infographic, and maybe we can put it up on social media.

[39:58] Laura Camien: So it's it's it's sort of like a pick, it's a picture of the two mindsets.

[40:05] Susan Blackwell: So fixed mindset, in the fixed mindset, intelligence is static. And it leads to a desire to look smart and therefore a tendency to avoid challenges, give up easily, see effort as fruitless or worse, ignore useful negative feedback, and feel threatened by the success of others. And as a result, somebody with a fixed mindset may plateau early and achieve less than their full potential. All of this confirms what is known as a deterministic view of the world.

[40:46] Laura Camien: And then on the other hand, the growth mindset or the idea that intelligence can be developed, and by intel and please fill in the blank intelligence, creative abilities, uh athletic ability, leadership ability, all of it.

[41:01] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[41:02] Laura Camien: If you embrace that those things can be developed, it leads to a desire to learn and therefore a tendency to embrace challenges, persist in the face of setbacks, see effort as a path to mastery, learn from criticism, find lessons and inspiration in the success of others. And as a result, people that have this mindset reach ever higher levels of achievement, and it gives them a greater sense of free will.

[41:33] Susan Blackwell: Does that make sense?

[41:34] Laura Camien: The distinction between those two?

[41:36] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[41:38] Laura Camien: And as you're describing them, I'm thinking how great it is that if you're listening and you think, uh oh, maybe I have a fixed mindset, you can even change that.

[41:47] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[41:48] Laura Camien: Camin.

[41:50] Susan Blackwell: Can I tell you how hard I've clutched that to my chest throughout all of this?

[41:54] Laura Camien: My God.

[41:57] Susan Blackwell: That's right. You're absolutely right. Um, so Carol in her work makes it clear, and I think this is critical. All of us have elements of both. We are all a mixture of fixed and growth mindset. And she presents it as a simple either or for the sake of simplicity and for people's understanding. But people can also have different mindsets in those different areas.

[42:20] Laura Camien: So I might think that my artistic skills are fixed, but I might believe that my intelligence can be developed, or that I might think that my personality is fixed, but that my creativity can be developed.

[42:32] Susan Blackwell: And she said that they found that whatever mindset people have in a particular area will guide them in that area. And that made a lot of sense to me because I could point to areas where I was like, I feel pretty growth mindset in this area, but in this area, that feels pretty fixed.

[42:50] Laura Camien: So, for instance, in terms of my intellect, I think with effort and with a good teacher and an approach that complements my style of learning. I feel like I do believe I can increase my comprehension of say something that wouldn't come naturally or easily to me, like geometry or chemistry. And when I think of working on a romantic relationship and seeing improvement because of that work, that that feels right to me and it feels very growth mindset to me.

[43:16] Susan Blackwell: But as I said earlier, when it comes to something, especially things that are like physically based, I have a fixed mindset. Like I have held this subconscious belief that I could never learn how to play the violin or be like a great basketball player or anything like that. But in all honesty, I've never really tried. Like that's right. I've never had I've never tried. I've never had a coach, I've never sought that evolution. So what the fuck do I know? Um, though I guess there are physical things that I have tried to improve. Like I've tried, there have been periods of my life where I've worked really hard at being a better singer and being a more confident singer. And I'm like, there are certain physical limitations.

I will never sound like Audra McDonald, I will never have a belt like Stephanie J. Block. But I I guess you could say, I guess I have gotten more confident. I mean confident enough to sing on Broadway stage without shitting myself. So now I guess there's some. Sometimes like the measuring stick that we're like, like we're measuring it against like, are you likely to become a professional violinist in this lifetime? Probably not. You know, or to play women's basketball, that ship has sailed, most likely. Like there's also you get to a certain age and you're like, okay, if you're measuring it against like, could I be a professional at that? You know, you get to a certain age and you have to rule out a number of things that probably aren't gonna happen.

But could you learn to play intramural basketball and have fun doing it? Could you learn to play the violin for your own enjoyment and maybe the enjoyment of a few friends and family? Absolutely. It's so interesting how many things though that we measure against this idea of could I be a professional at it?

[45:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[45:13] Susan Blackwell: And that's the only value that could come from it is what I get paid to do.

[45:18] Laura Camien: Right.

[45:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. And also, I think you make a great point. And I also think many of us come by this fixed mindset, honestly. In her book, uh, Carol writes, Malcolm Gladwell, the author and New Yorker writer, has suggested that as a society we value natural, effortless accomplishment over achievement through effort.

[45:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:40] Susan Blackwell: We endow our heroes with superhuman abilities that led them inevitably towards their greatness. As if Midori popped out of the womb fiddling, Michael Jordan dribbling and Picasso doodling. This captures the fixed mindset perfectly. But so we have been a little bit, I'm like, it's not insane that we have features of the fixed mindset because oh my God. And and we believe that, like uh, you know, pick who's your pick whoever your person is. Uh, but like we believe that Lin-Manuel Miranda just like emerged being, and he may have had some great cards dealt to him, but then he also cultivated those skill sets and worked really, really hard.

[46:27] Laura Camien: So it's um, yeah, but I think there's a this sort of a fairy tale about this uh effortless achievement and how much we value that.

[46:37] Susan Blackwell: And I think we do a just a huge disservice culturally to uh like everyone, everyone in our society by doing that, because we then, you know, it's like the it's that mindset of like 20 under 20 and 30 under 30. Like if you're not breaking records, right?

[46:58] Laura Camien: Yes.

[46:59] Susan Blackwell: But what about those people who are like, oh, I found my calling a little bit later and worked my ass off and achieved these things. Um, I I don't know if I've ever told you this, but like I have this thing that gets me. I just talked to my dad about this too. But I was like, dad, like sometimes I feel like just as a society for like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, we like someone will have a baby, and for the first 18 years, everyone's excited and hopeful, like maybe they'll change the world, and maybe they'll do something great with their life, and they have so much potential. And then by 21, they're like, um, yeah, you're not gonna do anything great. So then they have a kid, and then they put all the energy into the kid, and then we're like, okay, this child could be something great and maybe change the world and do something amazing with their life.

And it's like if it didn't happen by 21, you should start looking for a spouse and have a child and put your hope into that child. And I'm like, I'm not against the having of babies or anything like that. I'm just saying, like, there's a lot of life left to be lived after age 25. And if you're saying like this person is either determined that they're gonna do something great or not great by 25, you're like, ah, wash my hands of it. Nothing, nothing to be expected there.

[48:18] Laura Camien: I think that's so sad.

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: Don't you feel like though, like uh I don't you feel like you're coming into your own like fear of prime and power now?

[48:30] Laura Camien: God, yes.

[48:32] Susan Blackwell: Holy shit. Yes.

[48:34] Laura Camien: Yes.

[48:35] Susan Blackwell: Your nanny camps and Nana Susan be your eye on this. Come with us into the growth mindset. We're gonna do great things with our lives, and there's still time to everyone. There's still time as long as we're that's right.

[48:50] Laura Camien: So she gives great examples throughout the book of all sorts of people from all different walks of life and areas of expertise, artists, and scientists and writers, and all photographers and all different kinds of people that were not considered extraordinary as children or athletes who weren't considered to be like graceful or people who failed like great photographers who failed out of their first photography class, that sort of thing.

[49:23] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God, I want to read this list.

[49:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:26] Susan Blackwell: One of the things that she takes a deep dive into that caught my imagination because of my, because I do have a fixed mindset around, or I have had historically a fixed mindset around like physical things, is Muhammad Ali. And she writes, Muhammad Ali was not a natural. He had great speed, but he didn't have the physique of a great fighter. He didn't have the strength. He didn't have the classical moves. In fact, he boxed all wrong. He didn't block punches with his arms and elbows. He punched in rallies like an amateur. He kept his jaw exposed. He pulled back his torso to evade the impact of oncoming punches, which Jose Torres, this boxing trader expert, said was like someone in the middle of a train track trying to avoid being hit by an oncoming train, not by moving to one side or the other side of the track, but by running backwards.

So he like physically, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't like the greatest of all time, but he did have this mental prowess that he would study other boxers and study their psychology, and he would just come at it from that way.

[50:42] Laura Camien: And it made him a champion.

[50:45] Susan Blackwell: It made him an absolute undisputed champion. So, but like I said, she provides so many examples of athletes and artists and painters and business leaders and teachers and students and musicians and how their growth mindsets, or in some cautionary tales, their fixed mindsets changed the course of how they lived their lives and the things that they achieved. And as I read her book, I noticed myself starting to open up to new ways of thinking.

[51:14] Laura Camien: So movement, movement as a foot.

[51:18] Susan Blackwell: Ah. Yes. So obviously, I'm especially interested in how this growth mindset complements creativity. In an article on Zurb.com, probably one of the greatest uh URLs ever, ZERB.com. It talks about the relationship between creativity and failure. In this article, they were referring to design, but I think it's true for all sorts of creativity and making. Creativity and failure are integral to innovation. Individuals with a growth mindset believe that creativity is not a genetically present trait, but rather something that can be cultivated through practice and collaboration with other people. This belief drives them to constantly experiment with new approaches and ways of thinking rather than getting fixated on the right answer.

Moreover, to create truly innovative products, designers must be willing to make mistakes and fail over and over again. They must be able to acknowledge their mistakes, work through them often in a public way in order to extend in order to extract maximum learnings. This is no small feat. Failure can be painfully revealing and requires a level of vulnerability that is difficult for most people to bear. This is only possible with a growth mindset. For individuals with a growth mindset, failure isn't a permanent state or an indicator that they lack basic abilities. They view failure as an opportunity to develop and iterate on an idea further.

[52:49] Laura Camien: So I'll tell you, Cammy, there it speaks to me.

[52:58] Susan Blackwell: It just speaks to me because I like you were saying earlier, failure, perceived failure in a public forum. It's challenging. It's painful.

[53:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[53:07] Susan Blackwell: But I I like the possibility of this.

[53:09] Laura Camien: Yep, I still struggle with that.

[53:11] Susan Blackwell: But I love the idea. You know, when we were at the performing arts um project over the summer teaching, and those students were all learning how to fail. And there's a whole lot of uh research and uh, you know, a number of people in addition to uh TPAP that are really working on people understanding failure in a different way. And you know, if you go way back to Benjamin Franklin or Albert Einstein, I mean, these were people who like we think of like, oh my gosh, like they're the smartest people and accomplished so much in their lifetime, these renaissance people. Um they embraced failure so completely. It was like, yeah, the every time I fail in this experiment, that's one thing I can cross off.

Okay, that doesn't work. Let me try another one. And yes, if you look at it that way, like they have such a healthy mindset towards failure. And I feel like that's something that probably halfway through my life at this point. Like I just started to embrace that idea, and then I'm still like chipping away at owning it and feeling okay with it.

[54:21] Laura Camien: Amen.

[54:22] Susan Blackwell: I I feel like some of this stuff may help both of our brains and maybe you listeners, um, in regards to that pursuit. There are some great examples in this book that I love. One example that supports growth mindset is in a passage entitled, Is Artistic Ability a Gift? And she talks about how it seems easy to imagine how people can develop their intellectual abilities. The intellect is so multifaceted, but when it comes to artistic ability, that really, and I feel that it seems like a God-given gift. And then she talks about are you familiar with this book, which is a spark in and of itself, drawing on the right side of the brain by Betty Edwards?

[55:06] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[55:08] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yeah.

[55:08] Laura Camien: My mom had that.

[55:09] Susan Blackwell: I know of its existence.

[55:11] Laura Camien: Yeah, I've never really cracked it open.

[55:13] Susan Blackwell: But um it in her book, Carol Dweck shares some of the before and after self-portraits drawn by students before they entered Betty's course, and then five days later after they had completed the drawing on the right side of the brain course. Uh-huh. And I'm telling you, it looks, it goes from these things that look like basically kids drew them with whatever their non-dominant hand was to actual self-portraits that look like they were drawn by people in an art class.

[55:45] Laura Camien: So amazing.

[55:46] Susan Blackwell: Um it's amazing. I'll send you, I should send this to you so you can see it.

[55:51] Laura Camien: These are the befores and the afters of people in this class.

[55:58] Susan Blackwell: Amazing. Isn't it interesting? So Betty Edwards agrees that most people view drawing as this magical ability that only a select few possess, and that only a select few will ever possess. But she says that this is because people don't understand the component, the learnable components of drawing, the ability to perceive edges and spaces and relationships and lights and shadows and the whole of it. And that drawing requires us to learn each component skill and then combine them into one process. And some people simply pick up these skills in the natural course of their lives, whereas whereas others have to work to learn them and then put them together. But as we can see from those before and after self-portraits, anybody can do it, everyone can do it.

And to me, this is what this means. Just because some people can do something with little or no training, it doesn't mean that others can't do it and sometimes do it even better with training. And I think this is so important because many, many people with the fixed mindset, myself included, think that someone's early performance tells you all you need to know about their talent and their future.

[57:08] Laura Camien: That's right.

[57:09] Susan Blackwell: Camille, this is a weird example of this, but I think of Billy Crudup. Billy Crudup is this phenomenal actor. And when he was in college, he was in this, it was like a cable access. They made it on campus. It was a soap opera, and he acted in it. It was called like general, instead of general hospital, it was called like general college or something like that. And he is not good in it. He is not good in it.

[57:37] Susan Blackwell: And you look at his acting now and you're like, he's phenomenal.

[57:42] Laura Camien: He's so good.

[57:43] Susan Blackwell: So what happened?

[57:44] Laura Camien: What happened, Billy Crudup?

[57:46] Susan Blackwell: And I just feel like he learned.

[57:49] Laura Camien: He learned and he worked and he got better.

[57:54] Susan Blackwell: He grew.

[57:55] Laura Camien: That's exactly right.

[57:56] Susan Blackwell: So there's so much to make of this book, whether you're a leader, a teacher, an artist, a lover, an athlete, a student, a human, some of the above, all of the above.

[58:06] Laura Camien: There are so many applications in this book.

[58:09] Susan Blackwell: There are so many what do you makes of it.

[58:12] Laura Camien: Throughout this book, they do provide ways of growing your mindset in all different areas of your work.

[58:18] Susan Blackwell: So it's not simply just like here's a bunch of research and here's a bunch of anecdotes.

[58:22] Laura Camien: At the end of several of the chapters, there's this, there are things you can do to grow your mindsets in your work and in your life.

[58:31] Susan Blackwell: And a few what do we make of it that I'm going to work on, it makes me want to check out "Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain."

[58:38] Laura Camien: I love to draw when I was little.

[58:55] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[58:57] Laura Camien: In a larger sense, in my creative work, including this podcast, in my teaching, in auditions and things I write in our business, Camien, I'm going to try to view all of it as a continuum of learning.

[59:10] Susan Blackwell: And I know I say this to you all the time, Camien, but hashtag learning.

[59:14] Laura Camien: Everything we do, everything we attempt, every accomplishment, and especially when we experience perceived failure, it's all on a continuum of learning.

[59:25] Susan Blackwell: And specifically, I want to actively consciously continue my work on my relationship to perceived failure and criticism.

[59:33] Laura Camien: You know, this is something that I struggle with.

[59:37] Susan Blackwell: And if you receive criticism from a place of a fixed mindset, it's just so devastating because it's a comment on your fixed abilities.

[59:46] Laura Camien: And there's not much you can do but just take the hit.

[59:49] Susan Blackwell: But if criticism has the potential to be the spark for real growth, then it might still sting, but I think I can receive it in a whole different way.

[1:00:00] Laura Camien: And even potentially with gratitude.

[1:00:02] Susan Blackwell: It's what we talk about when we talk about the our, let me try that again, process.

[1:00:06] After you get past the initial discomfort, the why is this happening to me, and you settle down and you dig into it, the learning of it, and get to that.

[1:00:06] Laura Camien: Why is this happening for me?

[1:00:17] Susan Blackwell: What can we make of this?

[1:00:19] Laura Camien: What can we learn from this?

[1:00:20] Susan Blackwell: What can be mine from this?

[1:00:21] Laura Camien: What might be celebrated from this?

[1:00:23] Susan Blackwell: It's just a continual commitment to living in that growth mindset.

[1:00:29] Laura Camien: I love that too.

[1:00:32] Susan Blackwell: Bless, I'll do my best.

[1:00:34] Laura Camien: It's that sting, I just feel like such a sensitive, sensitive.

[1:00:38] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes that first sting is so painful to me.

[1:00:42] Laura Camien: But just like the conscious knowledge that it will pass, and then it is always immediately after that what my greatest growth happens.

[1:00:55] Susan Blackwell: But one last what do we make of it?

[1:00:57] Laura Camien: There is a lot of social change happening right now, and people all along a continuum of awareness and learning about the history of our country and the systematic racism that has actively tried to suppress people and the ways that I as a white person have internalized that.

[1:01:15] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes I can feel myself and I can see others feeling bad because we feel like we're failing at it, we feel like we're not doing it right, like we don't know enough fast enough or soon enough, and it can feel overwhelming.

[1:01:27] Laura Camien: But what if instead I view all of it as possibility and as opportunity for learning and continual personal evolution, and that that could contribute to greater societal change and personal evolution.

[1:01:44] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:01:45] Laura Camien: And I just, what if we approach it from the place that we and this situation are not fixed?

[1:01:45] Susan Blackwell: That we and this situation, even though it predates us and it may outlast us, are evolving and changeable, and that we throughout our efforts can influence that change.

[1:02:05] Laura Camien: That I go from feeling overwhelmed to feeling energized by it.

[1:02:11] Susan Blackwell: So that is my spark for the day.

[1:02:14] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:02:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:15] Laura Camien: And that is what I am, that's what I'm carrying in my little heart.

[1:02:20] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Carol.

[1:02:21] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[1:02:22] Susan Blackwell: Carol's whack, I need to read your book.

[1:02:25] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[1:02:26] Susan Blackwell: It sounds so good.

[1:02:28] Laura Camien: It's interesting how, and as I said earlier, it's not either or all of us contain multitudes.

[1:02:34] Susan Blackwell: And I would venture a guess that, you know, you may be a like me, like a hot combo platter of some fixed mindset and some growth mindset.

[1:02:43] Laura Camien: And I can see how I have evolved and changed as a person.

[1:02:47] Susan Blackwell: And that is evidence that some part of me obviously embraces a growth mindset, but I can also see where I have room for more growth mindset.

[1:02:56] Laura Camien: So something tells me that if you have a growth mindset, you're always aware of more growth that could be had.

[1:03:05] Susan Blackwell: And that's one of the gifts of that mindset.

[1:03:08] Laura Camien: So there you go.

[1:03:10] Susan Blackwell: More growing, more learning.

[1:03:11] Laura Camien: As long as you can draw breath.

[1:03:13] Susan Blackwell: More growing, more learning.

[1:03:14] Laura Camien: Oh, Camien, should we take a little break?

[1:03:16] Susan Blackwell: Okay, a little one.

[1:03:19] Laura Camien: Sues, that was such an amazing spark.

[1:03:22] Susan Blackwell: Dams.

[1:03:23] Laura Camien: Um, I really really like it.

[1:03:25] Susan Blackwell: And I think it's going to be really helpful for people.

[1:03:27] Laura Camien: You hear those terms thrown around fixed mindset and growth mindset.

[1:03:31] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes I think it's so good just to take a moment to be like, let's really consider what that is.

[1:03:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:03:40] Susan Blackwell: I was totally like growth mindset.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: Yes, of course I am.

[1:03:43] Susan Blackwell: And then I got into it and I was like, oh, maybe not so much.

[1:03:48] Laura Camien: Learning.

[1:03:48] Susan Blackwell: Hashtag learning.

[1:03:49] Laura Camien: Learning, hashtag learning.

[1:03:52] Susan Blackwell: Um, Suze, I'm gonna tell you a little bit about my spark.

[1:03:56] Laura Camien: I'm gonna jump into it.

[1:03:58] Susan Blackwell: I'm stoked.

[1:04:00] Laura Camien: Well, we are another week into our COVID-19 public health crisis.

[1:04:06] And actually, now we can add another official public health crisis to the list because in a long overdue move, many cities are declaring systemic racism a public health emergency.

[1:04:20] Susan Blackwell: Did you know that?

[1:04:21] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[1:04:23] Susan Blackwell: No, really.

[1:04:24] Laura Camien: Yeah, which I think is a great thing.

[1:04:27] Susan Blackwell: I mean, long, long, long overdue.

[1:04:28] Laura Camien: Let me say that again. Long overdue.

[1:04:30] Susan Blackwell: Um, according to an article in The Guardian, systemic racism kills both instantaneously and insidiously.

[1:04:39] Laura Camien: It burdens black and brown Americans with generational trauma, contributes to higher rates of infant mortality and heart disease, and even speeds up the aging process.

[1:04:52] Susan Blackwell: Yes, that makes sense to me.

[1:04:54] Laura Camien: All of that is true.

[1:04:54] Susan Blackwell: And the city councils of Cleveland, Denver, Indianapolis, and Boston, I believe, have voted to acknowledge this crisis, and other cities are looking to follow, which is good news, I think.

[1:05:07] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[1:05:08] Susan Blackwell: Because I suppose the collective acknowledgement of this truth is an important first step.

[1:05:13] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:05:15] Susan Blackwell: So, on the one hand, the protests and the backlash to this police brutality seem to be making progress.

[1:05:22] Laura Camien: It's slow and it's not enough to be sure, but in it feels like in some ways, like people are committed and there's positive momentum that seems to be happening.

[1:05:32] Susan Blackwell: Again, there's a long road ahead there.

[1:05:35] Laura Camien: On the other hand, the COVID-19 crisis, in my opinion, is in it's just in tatters.

[1:05:42] Susan Blackwell: There's no, yep, there's no clear leadership.

[1:05:44] Laura Camien: And people are questioning why did we shut everything down for three months just to arrive at a moment where we just open up the doors and say, okay, out you go, back into the world and just fend for yourself.

[1:05:57] Susan Blackwell: Figure it out.

[1:05:58] Laura Camien: Wear masks, don't wear masks, social distance or don't, whatever.

[1:06:02] Susan Blackwell: Good luck, everybody.

[1:06:04] Laura Camien: Um, I find myself getting really frustrated about that.

[1:06:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I did a little reflecting of, you know, my general mindset in regard to this.

[1:06:19] Laura Camien: And if I may, I'd like to remind us all of a few other things that have happened that have transpired in the last six to nine months that frankly we barely had any time to grapple with.

[1:06:31] Susan Blackwell: Brexit, the wildfires in Australia, the wildfires in California, the climate strike, which feels like 10 million years ago, the impeachment of our president, Kobe Bryant's death, Harvey Weinstein, and Jeffrey Epstein's arrests and subsequent dramas, daily tweets from our president confusing almost every issue.

[1:06:54] Laura Camien: I don't know about you, but I find my brain working so hard just to make sense of things.

[1:07:01] Susan Blackwell: And it has been in this state for a very long time.

[1:07:06] Laura Camien: There's a lot of moments when I wish I could be someone who was like, I'm just not going to worry about it.

[1:07:12] Susan Blackwell: But Suze, my brain doesn't work like that.

[1:07:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:07:17] Susan Blackwell: It just doesn't.

[1:07:19] Laura Camien: So I was thinking this week and feeling all these same things that I've been feeling, you know, for months, and it's just amped up in recent weeks.

[1:07:29] Susan Blackwell: And I was introduced to a term, an acronym this week, that is essentially an assessment tool.

[1:07:36] Laura Camien: And as I dug into this idea, which isn't even a new idea, honestly, but it really resonated for me.

[1:07:43] Susan Blackwell: First, I have to credit Dr.

[1:07:45] Laura Camien: Dan Siegel, who is a spark in and of himself.

[1:07:48] Susan Blackwell: And he's the person who first mentioned this term to me.

[1:07:51] Laura Camien: And then I dug into more of his work.

[1:07:53] Susan Blackwell: A lot of the content in this spark is credited to Dr.

[1:07:57] Laura Camien: Siegel, various talks he's given, which can be found on YouTube, articles he's written, like one on liberate leadership.ca, and on his Dr.DanSiegel.com website and the Mindsight Institute.

[1:08:10] Susan Blackwell: Dr.

[1:08:11] Laura Camien: Dan getting it done.

[1:08:12] Susan Blackwell: Dr.

[1:08:13] Laura Camien: Dan.

[1:08:13] Susan Blackwell: Other credit goes to the Plan Brothers blog, indigoanchor.com, and an article by Puck Falkenberg on Block and Ostergard.com.

[1:08:24] Laura Camien: So the term that Dr.

[1:08:26] Susan Blackwell: Siegel used was VUCA.

[1:08:28] Laura Camien: We're living in a VUCA world right now.

[1:08:31] Susan Blackwell: And the term VUCA is an acronym that originated from the US military in the late 80s.

[1:08:37] Laura Camien: It was based on leadership theories by Warren Bennis and Bert Nanis.

[1:08:41] Susan Blackwell: It was used to describe the global landscape after the Cold War.

[1:08:46] Laura Camien: It's meant to describe the volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity of the world we're living in.

[1:08:57] Susan Blackwell: And the idea was to name this new landscape so that leaders could better assess situations by giving them a common language and a common framework to consider the variables.

[1:09:12] Laura Camien: Okay, so it's volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity.

[1:09:18] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[1:09:20] Laura Camien: And VUCA.

[1:09:22] Susan Blackwell: And in the 20 years that followed the creation of this term, the military continued to find this term useful as a way to describe the extreme conditions in Afghanistan and Iraq, because the conditions were completely unique and greatly affected the way the Army approached the situation and perhaps completely changed the nature of warfare overall.

[1:09:44] Laura Camien: Eventually, and not surprisingly, the term made its way to boardrooms and leadership forums.

[1:09:51] Susan Blackwell: Because it was obvious that in the 21st century, business rules were changing quickly, the technology advances happening so fast, globalization and the business world like learned of the term VUCA and began to apply it to their senior leadership trainings.

[1:10:08] Laura Camien: Although it seems like it apparently became one of those trendy words that sort of come and go, it actually was a useful way to put a common understanding around sometimes overwhelming challenges.

[1:10:20] Susan Blackwell: I've never heard it before in my life.

[1:10:22] Laura Camien: You know what is so interesting is that while I was doing my research, there appears to be like a sprout of the use of VUCA around 2014 through 2018.

[1:10:36] Susan Blackwell: And it was like describing the intensity of how quickly the world was changing and information overload, technology advances.

[1:10:44] Laura Camien: And then after the 2016 election, like the endless stream of drama and chaos that our lives feel like they've been in.

[1:10:53] Susan Blackwell: So it seems like it really sprouted up then.

[1:10:56] Laura Camien: And I could not believe that I'm like all of that that I'm all the content I was reading about the use of VUCA was before a global pandemic put our lives on pause.

[1:11:18] Susan Blackwell: And she, um, she was saying how a student or a person has to have 10 encounters with a word before it starts to like, like it's really stick.

[1:11:30] Laura Camien: And I'm like, I bet number one, this we're gonna, it's gonna seem ubiquitous now, also because we've probably already said VUCA 10 times.

[1:11:38] Susan Blackwell: VUCA VUCA VUCA VUCA.

[1:11:40] Laura Camien: Um, but I bet now we'll see it everywhere.

[1:11:43] Susan Blackwell: I think so.

[1:11:43] Laura Camien: I think it's gonna sprout.

[1:11:45] Susan Blackwell: I think Dr.

[1:11:45] Laura Camien: Siegel is gonna also like give it a resurgence, I suspect.

[1:11:51] Susan Blackwell: Um, because, uh, as I'll get into, like I can't imagine a time being more, being, I can't imagine a term being more useful now than now, yeah.

[1:12:05] Susan Blackwell: So all of this content I was reading was before global pandemic, put our lives on pause, before millions of people lost their jobs, hundreds of thousands lost their lives, uh many more people went through incredible health challenges.

[1:12:22] Susan Blackwell: And before yet another black man was killed by police brutality and systemic racism, giving new momentum to a movement that has been fighting for equality for hundreds of years.

[1:12:33] Susan Blackwell: This movement is showing up as riots, as peaceful protests, as social media movements and petitions, and changes are coming.

[1:12:42] Susan Blackwell: Statues are being torn down, institutions are being renamed, entire industries are being questioned.

[1:12:48] Susan Blackwell: Change is coming, and that is good, but there's a lot more work to do.

[1:12:54] Susan Blackwell: And all of this is to say if ever there was a time when volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous truly describe the landscape we're in, it has to be right now.

[1:12:54] Susan Blackwell: It has to be right now.

[1:13:10] Susan Blackwell: That's so VUCA.

[1:13:11] Susan Blackwell: It's so FUCKA.

[1:13:13] Susan Blackwell: All right, so let's take a closer look at what each of the components of VUCA means.

[1:13:17] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:13:17] Susan Blackwell: And the funny thing is, again, as I was doing this research, all the descriptions were like, oh, right, that's what it would mean in like a business setting.

[1:13:26] Susan Blackwell: Um or a military setting.

[1:13:29] Susan Blackwell: If like if you were going into try to capture Osama Bin Laden, you would assess, you know, for these different uh assess the situation, you know, using these different traits.

[1:13:41] Susan Blackwell: But I had all new examples creep in.

[1:13:45] Susan Blackwell: So V is for volatility.

[1:13:48] Susan Blackwell: The definition of volatility is the liability to change rapidly and unpredictably, especially for the worse.

[1:13:56] Susan Blackwell: This refers to the speed of change and the inability to predict that change.

[1:14:02] Susan Blackwell: So essentially it's a fancy way of saying we don't know what the hell's gonna happen.

[1:14:06] Susan Blackwell: And there isn't a lot of things.

[1:14:07] Susan Blackwell: And it could happen fast and at any moment.

[1:14:09] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:14:09] Susan Blackwell: And it could go like really towards the worst.

[1:14:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:14:13] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:14:14] Susan Blackwell: We're in an evolving situation.

[1:14:17] Susan Blackwell: Change is happening fast.

[1:14:19] Susan Blackwell: And of course, there have been many times throughout history when it felt like change was happening fast.

[1:14:23] Susan Blackwell: Obviously, it's all relative to the industrial revolution is one that comes to mind.

[1:14:29] Susan Blackwell: Like we saw a lot of technology that was developed and used in World War II.

[1:14:33] Susan Blackwell: And then it was transformed quickly to be used in people's domestic lives.

[1:14:38] Susan Blackwell: And that felt very fast for everyone.

[1:14:41] Susan Blackwell: You know, it just felt like, oh gosh, everything's changing.

[1:14:46] Susan Blackwell: Ironically, just a few years ago, the world felt incredibly volatile due to globalization and the ever-changing and updating of technology.

[1:14:55] Susan Blackwell: In the business world, when you like when you combine that with like faster innovation and increased competition, you start to see exponential, not linear change.

[1:15:05] Susan Blackwell: You know, like when you have that sense like progress is like leaping ahead before you just even had time.

[1:15:12] Laura Camien: Yeah, you're like, oh, I just got my my um Blu-ray discs, and now they're already on to the next thing, right?

[1:15:21] Susan Blackwell: That's so VUCA.

[1:15:22] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:15:22] Susan Blackwell: That's so VUCA.

[1:15:24] Susan Blackwell: So that kind of thing was happening just a few years ago, and now here we are in this pandemic, and the rates of infection are changing rapidly.

[1:15:33] Susan Blackwell: The rules seem to be changing daily, the sheer number of things that are changing in our lives and the rate with which they're changing must be off the freaking charts.

[1:15:43] Susan Blackwell: I mean, it's beyond because it's all those things that were already volatile and more now.

[1:15:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:15:51] Susan Blackwell: Um, okay, you is for uncertainty.

[1:15:54] Susan Blackwell: In business terms, this would be a great name for a children's book.

[1:15:58] Susan Blackwell: You is for uncertainty.

[1:15:59] Laura Camien: Uncertainty.

[1:16:01] Susan Blackwell: Child.

[1:16:02] Susan Blackwell: Embrace it.

[1:16:04] Susan Blackwell: Um, in business terms, this typically is referring to the ability or inability to predict like the next big thing.

[1:16:11] Susan Blackwell: Like if this were just about leadership, this would be all about like doing your research to know enough that you could make some reasonable predictions in order to lessen the uncertainty of your company's actions.

[1:16:24] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:16:25] Laura Camien: Yes, like in our business class, we do all this research, we do all of this market research, we do all of this, but uh this is uh that's right.

[1:16:35] Susan Blackwell: Like the times we're living in right now are so unprecedented.

[1:16:38] Susan Blackwell: Like, what are we looking to try to find certainty?

[1:16:43] Laura Camien: It's very difficult.

[1:16:44] Susan Blackwell: It's very difficult.

[1:16:45] Susan Blackwell: And the definition of uncertainty is the lack of predictability, the prospects for surprise, and the sense of awareness of issues and events.

[1:16:55] Susan Blackwell: So suffice to say that our president has always viewed unpredictability as an asset in business and in reality TV.

[1:17:04] Susan Blackwell: Like the cliffhanger of we'll see what happens, is essentially a teaser like tune in next week to see what we ultimately decide to do with your healthcare insurance benefits, for example.

[1:17:16] Susan Blackwell: Like it's the opposite of comforting to have the leader be like, we'll see.

[1:17:23] Laura Camien: Tune in.

[1:17:24] Susan Blackwell: Tune in to find out what crazy thing we've decided to do now.

[1:17:29] Susan Blackwell: And I personally think that we're all desperately craving some ounce of information that could help us feel just a little bit more certain.

[1:17:38] Susan Blackwell: Like this entire time we're doing our best to navigate on a micro level, just figure out the details of our personal lives, but we're looking for some concrete information or some leadership that could make us feel a little less uncertain about the future at large.

[1:17:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:17:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:17:56] Susan Blackwell: So uncertainty, I'd say that one's off the charts as well.

[1:18:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:18:01] Susan Blackwell: C.

[1:18:02] Susan Blackwell: We're doing your two for two here.

[1:18:03] Susan Blackwell: Volatility off the charts, uncertainty off the charts.

[1:18:08] Susan Blackwell: Now let's go to complexity.

[1:18:11] Laura Camien: C is what complexity.

[1:18:13] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[1:18:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:18:14] Susan Blackwell: Yes, right.

[1:18:15] Susan Blackwell: So complexity is the multiplex of forces, the confounding of issues, a lack of cause and effect, or confusion surrounding it.

[1:18:23] Susan Blackwell: So my God.

[1:18:24] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes you might not feel like things are uncertain or volatile, but you can still find that they're complex.

[1:18:31] Susan Blackwell: Again, we have volatility, we have uncertainty and complexity, but not always.

[1:18:36] Susan Blackwell: You don't always find that.

[1:18:37] Susan Blackwell: So again, prior to all of this, a business might grapple with complexity because if you change one thing, you affect another.

[1:18:43] Susan Blackwell: So they might want to like reorganize their structure, but that will affect jobs, which will affect company culture, which will affect morale, which could in turn affect productivity and perhaps the ability to innovate.

[1:18:56] Susan Blackwell: So what we're feeling now is this interconnectivity and complexity of various situations.

[1:19:03] Susan Blackwell: Like on a national level, if you keep people at home for their health and safety, you negatively affect the economy.

[1:19:10] Susan Blackwell: If people lose their jobs due to a health crisis, they lose their health insurance when they need it most.

[1:19:16] Susan Blackwell: If kids can't go to school, then parents go to can't go to work and on and on.

[1:19:21] Susan Blackwell: So these things are inextricably tangled and extraordinarily complex.

[1:19:27] Susan Blackwell: And I think we feel every bit of that.

[1:19:31] Susan Blackwell: Like, yeah, I don't think anyone actually believes like there's an easy answer to any of this.

[1:19:38] Laura Camien: I think my personal frustration comes more from like, well, are we trying to figure any of it out?

[1:19:44] Susan Blackwell: Um I don't know.

[1:19:47] Susan Blackwell: I can't tell if we're trying to figure it out or if we're just like, um, we'll see what happens.

[1:19:53] Laura Camien: Back to uncertainty.

[1:19:54] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:19:55] Susan Blackwell: Um, so finally, A is for ambiguity.

[1:19:59] Susan Blackwell: And ambiguity refers to the potential for more than one interpretation, inexactness, the potential for misread, mixed messages, and confusion.

[1:20:09] Susan Blackwell: So typically, this would be about those times when you and your team are looking at data and your interpretation of the same numbers are different, and both interpretations are plausible.

[1:20:20] Susan Blackwell: Like maybe there is one more than one way to interpret a situation.

[1:20:24] Susan Blackwell: And if you're a business trying to make a decision in a VUCA world, you would explore those various potential meanings.

[1:20:31] Susan Blackwell: But here we are as individuals in an extremely VUCA world.

[1:20:37] Susan Blackwell: And when I read about ambiguity, uh, I thought of a few things.

[1:20:42] Susan Blackwell: Number one, again, sorry to harp on this, but our failed leadership in this time of need, like intentionally leading with confusing and mixed messages.

[1:20:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:20:55] Susan Blackwell: And I think about the media and how politicized everything has become.

[1:21:00] Susan Blackwell: So the exact same incident can and will be interpreted for us in opposite ways.

[1:21:07] Susan Blackwell: So that we intentionally have different understandings of the same event.

[1:21:11] Susan Blackwell: We're looking at the same picture and we're seeing different things.

[1:21:15] Susan Blackwell: And I have to admit, this is when I feel a little bit hopeless.

[1:21:20] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I don't see a path back to a neutral state, like a way back to sharing of news in a neutral way so that the facts aren't distorted in order to create intentional ambiguity.

[1:21:36] Susan Blackwell: So I'm not gonna lie.

[1:21:38] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I well, why start now?

[1:21:40] Susan Blackwell: Because I've been honest and frank this whole time.

[1:21:42] Susan Blackwell: But I think the reason I was sparked by this acronym this week is that it did help me get a frame around all the various fears and seemingly random anxiousness I was feeling and am feeling.

[1:21:56] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[1:21:57] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[1:21:59] Susan Blackwell: Like there's clear reasons for the anxiety in a way that that was validating.

[1:22:04] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes it's absolutely good just to check like that I'm not going crazy, you know.

[1:22:10] Laura Camien: Well, you know, we've talked about it before.

[1:22:12] Laura Camien: We've talked about it in our personal lives, and we've talked about it on the podcast.

[1:22:16] Laura Camien: That feeling that it can show up in some different ways.

[1:22:21] Susan Blackwell: The way I experience it is sort of like I fatigue more quickly.

[1:22:26] Susan Blackwell: I feel like my battery drains down more quickly.

[1:22:29] Susan Blackwell: And it makes sense to me because all of this VUCA is swirling around.

[1:22:35] Susan Blackwell: And if you I've really, really tried to be smart about my news intake because if I go right in and just let everything in, uh, I will get drained so quickly, and then I'm not really of use to myself or to anybody.

[1:22:54] Susan Blackwell: So I have to, I just I want to remain informed, but I want to do it in a way that still allows me to not get sucked down into the VUCA vortex.

[1:23:05] Susan Blackwell: I felt like understanding this assessment tool helped me realize like why it's also draining because there are times when, like I said, you of these four characteristics, you might be living in a world where there's like a lot of ambiguity and some complexity, but it's not volatile and you know it's not uncertain.

[1:23:30] Susan Blackwell: Um, or the other way around where you just have like one or two of these are maybe higher on the scale and the others are lower.

[1:23:37] Susan Blackwell: But we're literally like all four of these.

[1:23:41] Susan Blackwell: If they were, I'm looking at like a soundboard and they're like pushed to the max.

[1:23:46] Susan Blackwell: There's nowhere further to go.

[1:23:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:23:49] Susan Blackwell: So I've I felt like it helped me at least to understand why do I feel drained, why do I feel fatigued?

[1:23:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah.

[1:23:59] Susan Blackwell: And of course, then I asked our favorite question is what do we make of it?

[1:24:04] Susan Blackwell: And honestly, I'm craving simply to make sense of it.

[1:24:09] Susan Blackwell: I really don't know if that's possible, but I'm looking to find an orderly way for my brain to digest the changes we're going through.

[1:24:18] Susan Blackwell: And I found some peace in an article by Dr. Siegel where he talks about how leaders can overcome the overwhelm that accompanies a VUCA world.

[1:24:28] Laura Camien: Oh.

[1:24:29] Susan Blackwell: And the truth is, yes, and granted, he wrote this article before, you know, the you know, the where we are next.

[1:24:38] Susan Blackwell: Like the dumpster really exploded into flames.

[1:24:40] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:24:41] Susan Blackwell: Before this.

[1:24:42] Susan Blackwell: But nonetheless, what remains true is that our brains are not changing as fast as the world changes.

[1:24:49] Susan Blackwell: That's bottom line.

[1:24:51] Susan Blackwell: We've mentioned that before.

[1:24:52] Susan Blackwell: It's impossible for our brains to change that fast.

[1:24:57] Susan Blackwell: So Dr. Siegel is a neurologist, and his recommendation is that we essentially try to reroute our brain or trick our brain out of the reflex responses it's been trained to jump to.

[1:25:09] Susan Blackwell: Not unlike our conversations with uh the freestyle love supreme guys, and um, you know, different techniques we've talked about before.

[1:25:17] Susan Blackwell: But Dr. Siegel suggests a simple three-step process to override our brain's response to the overwhelmed feeling we get when living in a VUCA world.

[1:25:29] Susan Blackwell: Um, so these will sound familiar to you, Suze, but step one is simply to pause and allow yourself to pause because when we are met with any of the VUCA components, volatility, uncertainty, complexity, or ambiguity, we're likely to feel fear.

[1:25:47] Susan Blackwell: And the fear center of the brains, the amygdala, will go into a fight, flight, or freeze, as Dr. Siegel refers to it.

[1:25:54] Laura Camien: I like the addition of freeze because sometimes I feel that I don't feel like I'm fighting or flighting, but I'm definitely frozen.

[1:26:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's a big go to for me too.

[1:26:05] Laura Camien: That's a good one, right?

[1:26:06] Susan Blackwell: So your brain will go into fight, flight, or freeze.

[1:26:11] Susan Blackwell: And we want to try to disrupt that pattern if we can.

[1:26:14] Susan Blackwell: So pausing might feel counterintuitive in our lives.

[1:26:18] Susan Blackwell: I know for me it does too, like I can't slow down.

[1:26:26] Susan Blackwell: But we really need to take an intentional pause for space to consider and process what our next steps are.

[1:26:34] Laura Camien: Um, according to science, just one to three minutes of pausing can create the shift in our brain to move from overwhelm and get to a state of resourcefulness and problem solving.

[1:26:47] Susan Blackwell: Step two, again, the amygdala feels like we're living our lives on high alert.

[1:26:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:26:54] Susan Blackwell: And when the amygdala is on high alert, our breathing tends to become shallow. You know this. And what we want to do is break that pattern. So just a few slow breaths can literally change your brain. Could be the box breathing, which we talk about often. Four counts in through the nose, hold for four, four counts out through the mouth, hold for four. You can repeat that several times, or just a few long, deep, full breaths in through your nose and out through your mouth, and that'll do it. That simple act can break the cycle and calm our amygdala response.

[1:27:34] Laura Camien: Nice.

[1:27:35] Susan Blackwell: Finally, step three, according to Dr. Siegel, is to acknowledge. We've talked about this previously too. The goal is to let our emotions move through us. So it's not about trying not to feel what you're feeling. It's much more useful to first consciously acknowledge what you're feeling. You can do this simply by naming your emotions, as Dr. Siegel would say, name it to tame it.

[1:28:04] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:28:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, I've never heard that. Name it to tame it. Studies have shown that the simple act of naming our emotions can help reduce their impact. So just saying those words aloud. This is stress. I'm feeling angry. I'm having anxious thoughts.

[1:28:21] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:28:21] Susan Blackwell: One note here that he really stresses. It's important to use the word feeling or having in this naming rather than saying I am angry.

[1:28:31] Laura Camien: I am, yeah.

[1:28:32] Susan Blackwell: To say I am feeling angry. And that differentiation. Yeah, it's really, really important because when you use I am, it defines our identity and we are not our emotions. So I am feeling angry, is just creates a little bit of distance between you, between you and what you are feeling. They're not the same thing. That anger is not you. So you're naming I'm feeling anxiety, I'm feeling frustration. And as you name them, you're likely to feel the power of them reducing, lessening their hold on you. Your amygdala softens, you regain your ability to make a choice, and now you choose how you respond from here.

[1:29:13] Laura Camien: And once you get to that state, you can ask yourself, how do I want to be right now? In what way would I like to be showing up? And you can name this too. My intention is to be calm and focused, and then think about how that feels in your body. A few minutes of thinking about how it feels to show up as your intention, and your body will respond. It's a really simple process. And we've talked about it in different shapes and forms and different pieces. It's validating to hear it like straight from Dr. Siegel.

[1:29:53] Susan Blackwell: But it reminds me of like what things are within my control. And it really sparked me to make sure that I'm creating a routine of self-care right now. Because there's so much happening in the world and so much happening in my work life and my family life. And it's so cliche to say this, but I know I literally cannot help anyone else unless I take care of myself first.

[1:30:19] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:30:19] Susan Blackwell: Yep. So that was my big big takeaway from this. But this spark really led me down a rabbit hole. In fact, I'm not entirely sure I'm out of it yet, but while in this hole, I came across a medical term called Wolf's Law. Have you ever heard of this?

[1:30:38] Laura Camien: No.

[1:30:40] Susan Blackwell: Wolf's Law. It was developed in the 19th century by a German surgeon named Julius Wolf. And Dr. Wolf discovered that a bone in a healthy person or an animal will adapt to the loads under which it is placed. Meaning, if the load on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of load.

[1:31:11] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:31:12] Susan Blackwell: Thanks to Wikipedia for that concise explanation. But essentially, essentially, every time stress is applied to our bones, they adapt to the stress. And I suppose this left me hoping and praying that Wolfe's law applies not just to our bones, but to the rest of us as well, that we are able to grow and adapt to handle the level of stress being put on us as individuals, as a country, and as humankind. Nicholas Matske said about Charles Darwin's origin of species. It's not the most intellectual of the species that survives.

[1:32:10] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:32:11] Susan Blackwell: Cammy, as you're talking, it just strikes me with all of this when presented with volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. Of course, I think we're all seeking, and there is comfort in being able to order it even in those four buckets.

[1:32:36] Laura Camien: Do you know what I mean?

[1:32:37] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Like just being able to provide ourselves with a little bit of there's something about maybe it's just me because I respond to like organization that calms me down when things are like and acronyms. I was sitting here thinking, what else could those things stand for? C can stand for cookies. But I think it is it's interesting to me that just the act of sort of ordering it and naming it is helpful. And also I'm fascinated by that age-old response, which is we have got to calm down our lizard brains. We have got to like if we're going to be of any use to ourselves, if we're going to be of any good service to anyone else or to the world, we're going to have to do it from a place of from like a strong foundation instead of fight, flight, or freeze.

[1:33:38] Laura Camien: Well, because it doesn't seem like anyone is going to swoop in and help alleviate this level of stress we're feeling. We've got to find a way to manage it ourselves.

[1:33:51] Susan Blackwell: We're on our own and we have to find some self-care, you know, routines to get us through. And I think like the acronym helps me so much because each of those, I guess previously I would have just gone around saying like, oh, it's just chaos, it's also chaotic.

[1:34:14] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[1:34:15] Susan Blackwell: There's actually fine distinctions between the different sensations that we're feeling, and it's because they're it's not all the same thing. Volatility is different from uncertainty, is different from ambiguity, is different from complexity. And so there was something satisfying, I guess, to help me categorize it. It's not just a big soup of chaos that actually can be ordered in my brain.

[1:34:48] Laura Camien: Yeah. Are there any specific um what do we make of it, acts of self-care that you are committing to?

[1:34:56] Susan Blackwell: Definitely breathing more. I find myself now, you know, a good four or five times a day just getting up from the computer, getting to a different space and just breathing for a few minutes and just, you know, setting my intention on remaining calm, disengaging in some ways from work or things that you know I it's easy to lose perspective on and think, oh, the sense of urgency about this thing, whether it's, you know, homework for our class or it's something I needed to do for work. And I will try to disengage this sense of, you know, disconnect the sense of urgency from the act of doing it. Calm myself down.

[1:35:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:35:46] Susan Blackwell: And then it doesn't take that long to actually get it done. I look forward to I'm psyched to share this. I think this is so um, I don't know, it's so interesting. Thanks, Dr. Sarah.

[1:36:00] Laura Camien: Aren't you? You're gonna just go around saying it's a VUCA VUCA world. And people like, what are you talking about?

[1:36:05] Susan Blackwell: I guarantee that now that I have heard this for the first time, I'm going to see it everywhere. It's gonna be ubiquitous, and something that I was like, it's like it's like the TV show alone. Like I had no awareness of it, but now that I have awareness of it, I'd be seeing it everywhere.

[1:36:22] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm so happy you're watching that.

[1:36:25] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, you.

[1:36:26] Laura Camien: You too.

[1:36:26] Susan Blackwell: I do, and I cannot wait. What episode are you on of season six?

[1:36:32] Laura Camien: Only one. I've only watched one.

[1:36:34] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm ahead of you on season six.

[1:36:36] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[1:36:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm excited.

[1:36:39] Laura Camien: I've watched two.

[1:36:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I hope I didn't spoil anything.

[1:36:43] Laura Camien: Shit balls.

[1:36:44] Susan Blackwell: No, you didn't. You didn't.

[1:36:46] Laura Camien: Okay, good. I didn't know what episode or like what season you were watching. So I just assumed like all those things have happened in all those seasons.

[1:36:54] Susan Blackwell: Is it ever repetitive? Are you like, this is endlessly fascinating because the landscape changes and the people change and the skills change.

[1:36:59] Laura Camien: It's endlessly fascinating because the landscape changes, the people change, and the skills change. But also it always surprises you who can't handle being alone.

[1:37:12] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing.

[1:37:14] Laura Camien: I am I am not a survivalist. And I'm surprised where I'm like, where is your grit? Where is your where's that? Like I don't know.

[1:37:25] Susan Blackwell: I know. I'm like, you seem a you seem a little easily frazzled.

[1:37:29] Laura Camien: Sometimes people in other seasons, I I can't, I don't know if it happens in this one, but in other seasons, you'll see someone who's like literally built a campground um with a home and with a sauna and with a smoking station, a barbecue station, everything, a little makeshift gym. They've done everything, and then they're like, I'm going crazy out here. I don't know what to do with myself. I'm gonna tap out. And I'm like, Oh, you have set yourself up to survive like for years, and now you're just like quite what they couldn't handle was when they didn't have anything else to do.

[1:38:10] Susan Blackwell: I get it, I get it. Because what you're watching is a super edit of their experience. But what you're not seeing is the hours and days and weeks of them being by themselves. That would I think that could make you insane.

[1:38:28] Laura Camien: Also, I'm just like, why do you need to build yourself a tiny makeshift gym out of pine trees when your entire life is a workout?

[1:38:37] Susan Blackwell: That season was a little crazy and people criticized it because you also are you don't want to expend calories working out.

[1:38:45] Laura Camien: You just don't.

[1:38:45] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. You don't have enough of them coming in. People gained weight to go on the show because they know you're gonna shed it as they're yeah. Anyway, listen to us, just go on and on and on about love. More on that in future episodes of the Sparks File. Friends, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen to us. If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, we hope you'll email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. And we will even be growth mindset and take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:39:28] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at The Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. If you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people you love. And if you didn't like it, your criticism may be a spark for my personal and creative growth. So rock the fuck on.

[1:39:45] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. When something makes you seethe or makes you feel aggrieved, when times are strange, make social change till all of us can breathe. You gotta take it.

[1:40:14] Laura Camien: And make it.

[1:40:17] Susan Blackwell: We love you.

[1:40:18] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark fire.

[1:40:27] Susan Blackwell: Spark fire could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark fire.

[1:40:38] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark fire.

[1:40:41] Susan Blackwell: Spark fire. Let's open up the spark fire.