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[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, your one stop buried treasure for creative inspiration.

[0:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:43] Laura Camien: If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:46] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome.

[0:49] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:52] Susan Blackwell: Where do I get one?

[0:53] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[0:54] Susan Blackwell: These are such good questions.

[0:56] Laura Camien: And we do have answers.

[0:57] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:02] Laura Camien: Here's the deal.

[1:03] Susan Blackwell: We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:05] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or if you want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can sometimes run a little dry.

[1:15] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:15] Laura Camien: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:21] Susan Blackwell: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:26] Laura Camien: Or a habit of remembering those who came before you.

[1:33] Susan Blackwell: Or a creative celebration of history's most fascinating women.

[1:48] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might just meet your new favorite lady.

[1:52] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the Sparks File.

[1:59] Laura Camien: Hi, Cam.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: Hi, it's one of my favorite days.

[2:01] Laura Camien: And this is my favorite day.

[2:03] Susan Blackwell: It's recording day.

[2:04] Laura Camien: Um, Cam's, I came across this quote by Mary Oliver that I had never a new one, a freshing?

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: New to me, not new to the world, but new to me.

[2:13] Laura Camien: And it goes like this.

[2:15] Laura Camien: Every day I see or hear something that more or less kills me with delight.

[2:20] Laura Camien: That leaves me like a needle in the haystack of light.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[2:25] Laura Camien: And I was like, she's talking about sparks.

[2:28] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[2:29] Laura Camien: That's incredible.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: I need that.

[2:32] Laura Camien: I actually need that quote.

[2:34] Laura Camien: This just the first part.

[2:36] Laura Camien: Every day I see or hear something that more or less kills me with delight.

[2:40] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[2:40] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[2:41] Susan Blackwell: And the truth.

[2:42] Laura Camien: Um thanks, Mary Oliver.

[2:45] Laura Camien: Cam.

[2:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, baby Blackwell.

[2:47] Laura Camien: What's going on with you?

[2:47] Susan Blackwell: Anything to say or no?

[2:49] Laura Camien: I'm just excited to share things that I now know that I didn't know before, things I looked into, things I discovered.

[2:57] Susan Blackwell: And it excites me.

[2:58] Laura Camien: That's exciting.

[2:59] Laura Camien: That killed me with delight.

[3:00] Susan Blackwell: I want to share that.

[3:03] Laura Camien: We did not discuss who's going first.

[3:05] Susan Blackwell: We did not.

[3:05] Laura Camien: That's uh yet another surprise.

[3:08] Susan Blackwell: Um, what are you thinking?

[3:10] Laura Camien: I'm trying to read your face right now, and I I can't.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: Do you want me to go first?

[3:13] Laura Camien: I'm I'm ready.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: Are you ready?

[3:15] Laura Camien: I think we would have sorted these things out.

[3:18] Susan Blackwell: We really like you to be part of the process.

[3:19] Laura Camien: I'm gonna jump in.

[3:20] Susan Blackwell: You go.

[3:20] Laura Camien: I'm gonna jump in.

[3:21] Susan Blackwell: Great.

[3:22] Laura Camien: Um what you got.

[3:23] Susan Blackwell: Okay, as you like to say.

[3:25] Laura Camien: My spark sources include the Artgasm podcast with Allison Moon and the work of Jason Porath, which we are going to dig into in a moment.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: This spark first came to me via an Instagram post from an opera singer named Jamie Barton, whose Instagram handle is at J Barton Metal.

[3:45] Laura Camien: Her Insta profile reads Proudly Queer Opera Singer into sci-fi, drag queens, bluegrass, social justice, equality, and cats.

[3:54] Susan Blackwell: And then there's the cat with a heart eyes emoji.

[3:56] Laura Camien: Yes.

[3:56] Laura Camien: I don't know, Jamie.

[3:57] Susan Blackwell: I first became aware of Jamie when I watched a documentary.

[4:00] Laura Camien: This is a whole spark unto itself.

[4:02] Susan Blackwell: I watched a documentary of the Metropolitan Opera's annual singing competition, which is entitled The Audition.

[4:09] Laura Camien: Jamie was one of the competitors the year that that documentary was filmed, which I was, I believe was 2007.

[4:16] Susan Blackwell: But since then, Jamie has become this fancy pants opera star, performing big roles at big opera houses.

[4:31] Laura Camien: Like that's Yow's Jamie.

[4:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes, Jamie.

[4:34] Laura Camien: That's not the spark.

[4:35] Susan Blackwell: Here's a spark.

[4:36] Laura Camien: Recently, Jamie posted this on Instagram.

[4:39] Laura Camien: Most operatic stories honestly make me want to barf.

[4:43] Laura Camien: Wavy emoji.

[4:44] Laura Camien: Hi, LaboM.

[4:45] Laura Camien: So this hashtag Valentine's Day, I'd like to celebrate a bit of operatic history in the real life story of Julie Damonier, also known by her stage name, Mademoiselle Des Montpont.

[4:56] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[4:57] Laura Camien: Fabulous name.

[4:58] Susan Blackwell: I don't know if you're pronouncing it right.

[5:00] Laura Camien: It doesn't matter.

[5:00] Susan Blackwell: That is fabulous.

[5:04] Laura Camien: Mademoiselle Des Maupont lived between 1673 and 1707 and was a true tour de force.

[5:11] Susan Blackwell: Not only was she an opera singer at the Paris Opera, but she was also a bisexual, cross-dressing swordswoman who upended societal expectations at every turn.

[5:21] Laura Camien: Insert crossed sabers emoji.

[5:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:24] Laura Camien: The post goes on to say some other stuff.

[5:26] Laura Camien: Jamie Barton says this in related news.

[5:28] Laura Camien: If anyone wants to write an opera on the life of Julie Debonier, I really want to put this nonstop adventure on stage.

[5:35] Laura Camien: And if you want to learn more about her, I'm partial to her entry on at rejected princesses.

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: Hashtag Curiosity, hashtag meet opera.

[5:44] Laura Camien: I was like, I really want to learn.

[5:46] Laura Camien: I want to learn more about Memoiselle Des Montpens.

[5:49] Susan Blackwell: And I really wanted to know more about Jamie's source for this info, Rejected Princesses.

[5:55] Laura Camien: So you know I let my little fingies do the walking, and I click through to at rejected princesses and rejected princesses.com came.

[6:02] Susan Blackwell: A whole treasure trove of sparkly sparkles opened up before my eyes.

[6:08] Laura Camien: Oh welcome to the mighty spark source that is rejected princesses.

[6:13] Susan Blackwell: Are you familiar with any of this?

[6:14] Laura Camien: I have vaguely heard a little, but I'm not sure it's what I think it is.

[6:18] Susan Blackwell: So I can't wait to hear more.

[6:19] Laura Camien: Okay, great.

[6:20] Susan Blackwell: Take the ride.

[6:21] Laura Camien: Um rejected princesses is many things.

[6:24] Susan Blackwell: It's a website, it's uh two books, it's social media accounts.

[6:29] Laura Camien: I know I'm super late to this party, but it is a delightful treasure trove to discover at any time.

[6:35] Susan Blackwell: Rejected princesses is the brainchild of a dude named Jason Porath.

[6:39] Laura Camien: Jason uh was working at DreamWorks Animation, not as an artist, but more of like a technical animator.

[6:45] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[6:46] Laura Camien: He tells the story in the introduction to his first book titled Rejected Princesses about how he and his co-workers were at lunch and they were having a conversation along the lines of who is the least likely woman to ever get the animated princess treatment.

[7:01] Susan Blackwell: And over that lunch hour, they were one-upping each other with increasingly inappropriate suggestions.

[7:07] Laura Camien: Um, the most inappropriate Nabuccoff's Lolita.

[7:11] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[7:11] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[7:12] Laura Camien: Um, but throughout Jason kept suggesting obscure warrior women he'd learned about from Wikipedia binges, like the Angolan freedom fighter Nazingi Mabande.

[7:22] Susan Blackwell: And none of his co-work, I know you're like have not heard of Nazinga Mabande.

[7:26] Laura Camien: I made this in my life.

[7:27] Susan Blackwell: Um, none of his co-workers had ever heard of these women, and he thought that should change.

[7:32] Laura Camien: Yes.

[7:33] Laura Camien: He strikes me as the kind of person who is sort of an autodidact, and he'll take like if something catches his interest, he'll just take a super deep dive on it.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: So he was referencing all of these historical women, and and he was like, Oh, really?

[7:46] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I thought that was more like a household name.

[7:48] Laura Camien: So this is where we start.

[7:50] Susan Blackwell: Wow, that tells us a lot.

[7:52] Laura Camien: In the intro to Rejected Princesses, he goes on to say, there's a list of stories in your head.

[7:59] Laura Camien: You know the ones, it's the list schools give to girls, Amelia Earhart, Marie Curie, Rosa Parks, and so on.

[8:06] Susan Blackwell: It's safe, it's censored, it's short.

[8:08] Laura Camien: It's the list of amazing women in history.

[8:11] Susan Blackwell: But what of the untold stories, the uncompromised ones, the uncomfortable ones, the rejected ones.

[8:17] Laura Camien: Yes.

[8:17] Susan Blackwell: That's where this book comes in.

[8:19] Laura Camien: Oh, hell yes.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: Think back to history class.

[8:22] Laura Camien: You learned about male figures running the gamut from Abe Lincoln to Genghis Khan, and on the female side, the aforementioned short list.

[8:29] Susan Blackwell: And that list was not a foregone conclusion.

[8:32] Laura Camien: It's not like history lacks for strong minded women.

[8:35] Susan Blackwell: But at some point, our society collectively decided that people like Elizabeth I and Cleopatra the Seventh are fine, but rebels, Hellions and Warlords, not so much.

[8:46] Laura Camien: And when someone like Harriet Tubman does sneak onto the list, the unpalatable parts of her story, the bits that are not suitable for children, get left off.

[8:55] Susan Blackwell: So that's where he's coming from.

[8:57] Laura Camien: This sort of like we hear so much about these male, multidimensional, sometimes um, oftentimes like very imperfect, but they still are held up as these historical figures.

[9:11] Susan Blackwell: And there are female counterparts that just get left off the list.

[9:16] Laura Camien: That's because they're not sure virtuous or they're not, or there's like a, or they what we call shave the carrot, where they like, yeah, we'll include Harriet Tubman, but not the part about her, you know, yeah.

[9:28] Susan Blackwell: Those inconvenient truths that um, you know, because we have a habit of wanting to make heroes out of people that's very black and white, hero or villain.

[9:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:39] Laura Camien: And in particular with women, we have a hard time of it with anyone that falls somewhere in between.

[9:44] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[9:46] Laura Camien: This is why I find Jason's work so brilliant.

[9:49] Susan Blackwell: Um, some of the women's lives that Jason covers in his work are what Cam's and I would call hashtag dark sparks.

[9:56] Laura Camien: These women have been through it or they put other people through it.

[10:01] Susan Blackwell: But to his point, he felt that just because they were complex or not pro purely virtuous, that doesn't mean they weren't historically significant.

[10:09] Laura Camien: Jason thought that these stories about these amazing complex women were so sparkish, he had to see them illustrated.

[10:17] Susan Blackwell: So he did some illustrations in that animated princess style.

[10:21] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[10:21] Susan Blackwell: Despite having little to no artistic background, he again, he was more of a technical animator who did what they call physics programming.

[10:30] Laura Camien: The side spark, I love it when people learn a skill in order to do what they need to do to be self-expressed.

[10:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[10:39] Susan Blackwell: You showed me the graphic novel of an artist.

[10:41] Laura Camien: Harriet Jacobs.

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: Mira Jacobs, who was not an She was an office.

[10:46] Laura Camien: She taught herself to draw.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: She taught herself to draw in order to do a graphic novel that she saw in her head.

[10:51] Laura Camien: It's called Good Talk, and we may do a spark about it soon.

[10:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, but it she did exactly that.

[10:56] Susan Blackwell: It's like, well, I guess I'm gonna need to roll up my sleeves and learn how to draw.

[10:59] Laura Camien: That's what Jason Porath did too.

[11:01] Susan Blackwell: Fantastic.

[11:02] Laura Camien: I love that.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: So good.

[11:04] Laura Camien: Um, as soon as he put these pieces online, they went viral and it became his full-time job.

[11:09] Susan Blackwell: And this may be when you maybe were exposed to Jason's work.

[11:16] Laura Camien: Do you know?

[11:17] Susan Blackwell: I can't remember.

[11:18] Laura Camien: Or when was when did that book come out?

[11:20] Susan Blackwell: Um I'd have to look.

[11:21] Laura Camien: Okay.

[11:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:22] Laura Camien: No worries.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: We'll figure it out.

[11:23] Laura Camien: Um, so for each illustration, there is an accompanying story about the woman he's covering.

[11:28] Susan Blackwell: And he he's also a self-taught scholar.

[11:31] Laura Camien: He'll read everything there is to know about a woman, and he's distilling by his count account, he's distilling 500 pages of research and biography into a two to three page story.

[11:44] Susan Blackwell: Incredible.

[11:45] Laura Camien: Incredible.

[11:46] Susan Blackwell: And then we, the reader, get to just enjoy this really funny, well-prepared, sort of smorgasboard tasting menu of fantastically interesting historical women.

[11:55] Laura Camien: And if you want to learn more, you can just hit up his citations and dig deeper.

[11:59] Susan Blackwell: So I really appreciate it.

[12:01] Laura Camien: It's like it was they're really fun.

[12:03] Laura Camien: You know, Nathan and I sometimes read aloud to each other in the evenings instead of watching television.

[12:08] Susan Blackwell: Love that.

[12:09] Laura Camien: And they're so, you know, it's like two to three pages, they're kind of bite-sized, and you learn about these people that you have in most cases had minimal to no exposure to before.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[12:21] Laura Camien: And then so you like you get to read one, you discuss it, you look at the pictures, and then you can decide if it's time to brush our teeth and go to bed, or you can decide if you want to read another story.

[12:32] Susan Blackwell: It's like being a kid again, kind of.

[12:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:34] Laura Camien: Oh, how cool.

[12:36] Susan Blackwell: So here he is, the self-taught artist and scholar who caught a great spark, fanned, fan, fan the flames, and then spent the next five years making some really cool shit.

[12:49] Laura Camien: Jason describes himself as an unlikely candidate to make an illustrated blog about feminist historical, multicultural, butt kicking ladies.

[12:57] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[12:57] Laura Camien: Like I said, not a historian, not a trained artist, not a woman.

[12:57] Susan Blackwell: Not a woman.

[13:02] Laura Camien: He's the straight white cis dude from Kentucky.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: But he said on his website, I'm going to do it anyway.

[13:09] Laura Camien: Really, I just think this stuff is neat.

[13:11] Susan Blackwell: I try hard to get things right and to make it worth your while.

[13:15] Laura Camien: I'm learning as I go.

[13:16] Susan Blackwell: Mostly I just try not to screw up as much this week as last week.

[13:20] Laura Camien: I actually want to say, like, this is one of the things that keeps coming up in my mind as you're telling this story, and I commend him for saying that.

[13:28] Susan Blackwell: Um, I think we often ask the question, who gets to tell a story?

[13:31] Laura Camien: And in this day and age, Jason might not be allowed to tell these stories because he's not quote unquote qualified as a woman, and yet his heart is so in it.

[13:42] Susan Blackwell: And I I just want to say, I'm so fucking glad he did.

[13:47] Susan Blackwell: It is, it's a tricky.

[13:48] Laura Camien: And I think he's taken some heat for it too.

[13:50] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure.

[13:51] Laura Camien: I'm sure. And when he especially like if he doesn't, like I'm using quote signs like do it perfectly, like if he doesn't absolutely recognize all the source material and other like if he caught a spark from another living, especially like a woman artist, and he doesn't, he's not really caught careful to honor that person and cite them. I think he's caught some heat for it but he really does seem in my research I don't know this guy I don't know his life but it's he's got a very strong purpose behind it a very strong why which we'll get to in a little bit and uh I think he really does just try to do it as well as he can and just keep getting progressively better.

[14:35] Susan Blackwell: Amen to that and I I think that no matter who did it if it was a woman uh you know of any background I think they would still get heat it's very difficult like the range of stories that he's telling in there to you know cover everything so I think no matter who did it um they might get some heat for like the details um but I just think like it's one of the more perplexing and unsolved issues of the day I think that's very timely that's why I kind of asked like when did the book come out because um there are moments in history where a man writing about women was a no-brainer everything was written by men regardless of the topic um so but it's more complicated now it's more complicated now but I sure as I I'm just really glad that someone is doing it because the stories need to get told and it's someone who has obviously good intentions behind all of it if that's what matters I think from what I can tell from what I can tell the intentions are good and the other thing I want to say is he's also striving to cover people uh stories, legends, myths, all sorts of things from around the globe because he's really interested in that diversity.

[15:53] Laura Camien: But that means he's talking a lot about lived experience that is not his own.

[15:57] Susan Blackwell: Well, and when you have the microphone, you get to decide um where you spend your time um and what you shine a light on. So would we prefer that, you know, if Jason's got the microphone, that he only shine a light on what his life experience has been, or that he take the time to shine a light on so many others so that people like us or others who have podcasts or want to write novels or screenplays or books can take these two to three page stories that he has and go deeper and tell a greater story.

[16:30] Laura Camien: It is, it's an interesting, complex uh question.

[16:34] Susan Blackwell: But I'm psyched that he did the work.

[16:37] Laura Camien: Hell yeah. I thought it would be fun to sample some of the stories from Jason's books, leave his site, rejectedprincesses.com. Um, when I read, I will be reading highlights from his words just to give you a taste of his work. Typically, I like to put things in my own words, but his style is so zippy, and it's what I want to highlight today. So um, these are many times, these are you're hearing a sampling of his words. If you like it, I really encourage you to sample his fine, fine, sparkish work.

[17:06] Susan Blackwell: Love it. So let's start with my gateway drug, courtesy of Jamie Barton. And pardon my French pronunciation. Julie Doubling, I hope, lived from 1670 to 1707. Jason Porath writes at the top of the list of history's greatest rascals is undoubtedly L'A Montpellier, Julie Daubonier, sword slinger, opera singer, and larger than life bisexual celebrity of 17th century France.

[17:37] Laura Camien: Woo.

[17:37] Susan Blackwell: Her life was a whirlwind of jewels, seduction, grave robbing, and convent burning so intense that she had to be pardoned by the king of France twice. La Mapin, her married slash professional name, had a real piece of work for a dad. As the man in charge of training Louis XIV's pages, his main ideas for daddy-daughter bonding time was to teach her how to use deadly weapons. La Maupin earned her living through singing and dueling demonstrations, usually dressed as a man, a fashion she'd keep with for the rest of her life. She was already so skilled with the sword at this point in her life that audiences sometimes would not believe she was actually a woman. In fact, when one drunken onlooker proclaimed loudly that she was actually a man, she tore off her shirt, providing him ample evidence to the contrary. The heckler had no comeback.

[18:24] Laura Camien: Ooh.

[18:24] Susan Blackwell: So I'm talking about I just it's like it's like you just hit the ground running. It's just fun and swashbuckling. So if La Maupin had one overriding flaw, it was an allergy to boredom. At one point, she pronounced herself tired of men in general and seduced a local merchant's daughter. The merchant, desperate to separate the two, sent his daughter to a convent, but our heroine found a loophole. La Maupin joined the convent herself and started hooking up with her intended in the house of God. Hello. Shortly into their convent stay, an elderly nun died from unrelated causes, it would seem, and La Maupin reacted the same way anyone might by disinterring the body, putting it in her lover's room, and setting the whole convent on fire. You know, same old story.

[19:12] Laura Camien: That's like a pot of a movie or an opera.

[19:15] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing. Oh my God. The two ran off in the confusion and enjoyed a long elopement. After three months, La Maupin got bored, dumped her back at her parents' house, and ran off into the night.

[19:28] Laura Camien: Ouch.

[19:29] Susan Blackwell: But this bout of shenanigannery. It's a great word. La Mapon was sentenced to death. In response, she convinced Louis XIV to revoke her sentence. The king did so, and she took advantage of her new lease on life by running off to Paris and joining the opera. What'd she have on Louis? I wonder what uh I'm so so I'm so smart. Maybe they relate. They seem like they had she's like a lot of fun. What's the scoop? All of this happened before she was twenty.

[19:57] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[19:59] Susan Blackwell: Jason says makes you feel like an underachiever. Her behavior amped up even more when she became an opera singer, basically the rock stars of the day. In true theater major fashion. She alternately fucked and fought her way through her stage contemporaries, and audiences loved her for it. Stories of her time in Paris. Another opera singer named Dumen Neil started talking shit about a number of women, including La Mapon. She responded by ambushing him, pushing a sword in his face, and demanding a duel. When he refused on the grounds he was a wimp, she beat him with a cane, stealing his snuff box and watch. The next day, she caught him complaining that he had been assaulted by a gang of thieves.

She called him a liar and coward, threw his watch and snuff box at him, and declared that she alone had architected his ass beating. Another story from her time in Paris. She attended a royal ball thrown either by Louis the Fourteenth or his brother, dressed as a man. She spent most of the evening courting a young woman, which earned the ire of three of the woman's suitors. When La Maupin pushed things too far and kissed the young lady in full view of everyone, the three challenged her to a duel. She fought all of them outside of the royal palace, mind you, and won. According to some accounts, she actually killed them. This entertained Louis XIV so much that he pardoned her from any punishment.

[21:18] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[21:19] Susan Blackwell: Energy. I think she was of good fucking time. Wow. Yeah. She died in Paris of unknown causes. She was, at best anyone could tell, 37.

[21:30] Laura Camien: Stop.

[21:31] Susan Blackwell: That's a lot of living.

[21:32] Laura Camien: That's a lot of living. Someone obviously needs to write.

[21:38] Susan Blackwell: Give us the full story to her. I want to show you. This is the illustration. Now, sometimes Jason Porath will do like it's almost like an extended, it's not a full graphic novel, but it will look like a mini-graphic novel telling the story instead of it being text. He'll tell the story in graphic novel style.

[21:56] Laura Camien: Cool.

[21:59] Susan Blackwell: But this is his um, so this is the princessed version of Julie Deboniet, Mademoiselle.

[22:08] Laura Camien: Wow.

[22:09] Susan Blackwell: You want to tell the people what you see there, Cam?

[22:11] Laura Camien: I I mean, I see uh dressed as a man, swashbuggler. I mean, really, like she's Disney Prison style. We got the big big eyes, but yeah, she's mid-she's looks like she's running away from the fire of the convent with her rather childlike lover in hand. Um it's amazing.

[22:32] Susan Blackwell: And he's also does a really cool job. Um, he puts artists' notes at the bottom of his entry so he can explain um why he selected what the person is wearing and what even little details in the background to draw your eye to what pieces of the story that's reflecting.

[22:52] Laura Camien: And it could be things that you've already read, or it could be fresh information. It's very detailed. There's a lot of thought and a lot of research that goes into it. Jason Porath people.

[23:01] Susan Blackwell: Jason is a spark generator. And I agree with Jamie Barton. This is a great spark of inspiration and a great idea about one what one might possibly make with a spark with this opera. I mean, I'd watch that nutty fucking opera. It's sparks on top of sparks, you know, as we say, sparks beget sparks. So Jason is living his creative life and inspiring others to get creative with these stories, whether that turns into operas or screenplays or paintings, etc. I mean, he really is just handing out the sparks.

[23:40] Laura Camien: And you've got Jamie Barton, Metro Extraordinaire, telling someone, write it.

[23:44] Susan Blackwell: Right. Somebody get on it. Remember Philip Halatsky who wrote us about the opera he conceived after being sparked by the Sparks File? Uh Philip, if you're listening, get a write this. We need you.

[23:58] Laura Camien: You want one more?

[24:00] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[24:01] Laura Camien: Okay, great. Yes, yes. I'm sorry about the names. A lot of these names are unfamiliar to my tongue. So and probably unfamiliar familiar to everybody. I practiced, but I don't know that that practice will translate. Maria Otyabraskaya, the tank driving widow, born in 1905, died in 1944. These are Jason's words. On a list of the toughest women who ever lived near the top will be Sergeant Maria Okia Braskaya and her tank fighting girlfriend. During World War II, her army officer husband, Ilya, was killed in action. In response, Maria sold literally all of their belongings in order to buy a tank. Then she wrote Stalin the following letter. My husband was killed in action defending the motherland.

I want revenge on the fascist dogs for his death and for the death of Soviet people tortured by the fascist barbarians. For this purpose, I've deposited all my personal savings, 50,000 rubles, to the national bank, in order to build a tank. I kindly asked to name the tank fighting girlfriend and to send me to the front line as a driver of said tank. Stalin wrote back pretty quickly and said yes. Sure. And join us.

[25:17] Susan Blackwell: Can you unfucking believable? And how have we not heard this story before?

[25:23] Laura Camien: We're hearing it now, baby.

[25:24] Susan Blackwell: Unbelievable. I can't get over it.

[25:26] Laura Camien: I know.

[25:27] Susan Blackwell: So um, no, no, you're uh I love it. So initially the army was skeptical of her ability to handle a tank. However, she quickly proved in training that she could drive, shoot, and throw grenades with the best of them, skills she'd picked up from her late husband, with whom she'd presumably had some interesting dates. On her first outing in the tank, she outmaneuvered the Germans. This is fucking banana. This is incredible. On her first outing in the tank, she outmaneuvered the German soldiers, killing around 30 of them and taking out an anti-tank gun. When they shelled her a mobilizing fighting girlfriend, she got out in the middle of a firefight and repaired the damn thing. Then she got back in and proceeded to kill more Germans.

[26:13] Laura Camien: Can you even know I can't imagine even.

[26:17] Susan Blackwell: It's incredible? Unbelievable. In the end, she was taken out by a mortar round, which she got out of the tank in the middle of yet another firefight to fix fighting girlfriend. She was awarded the highest honor in the Soviet military and is buried in one of the nation's most sacred cemeteries. And here is Jason Porath's illustration. Here's Maria and Maria's tank, Fighting Girlfriend.

[26:40] Laura Camien: Wow.

[26:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[26:41] Laura Camien: So Maria's sort of like draped fiery redhead.

[26:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[26:45] Laura Camien: Oh yeah. Big big eyes. Look, yeah, she's draped across the timer and it looks like it's in cars.

[26:52] Susan Blackwell: It's in Pixar's cars. It is. Um Jason Porath ha also has this hit. The website, rejectedprincesses.com is we could. I was like, Jason, if he cared to, I feel like he's really he put a lot of years into this, but if he wanted to expand it, he could just do a podcast and it he would have thousands of thousands of entries just based on the contents of his website. And then there's this whole community of people who write in who are like, what about this woman? What about this woman? What about this woman? What about this woman? So it's like it is a it is a treasure trove.

[27:29] Susan Blackwell: So honestly, it's amazing. On his site, he has this whole section called Modern Worthies.

[27:32] Laura Camien: Modern Worthies.

[27:40] Susan Blackwell: Okay. I like where this is headed.

[27:41] Laura Camien: I do too.

[27:42] Susan Blackwell: Uh, he writes, "In the 14th century, several authors began to latch on to the concept of the nine worthies, a collection of men who exemplified virtue, kind of like the seven wonders of the world, except for people." We're talking folk like King Arthur, Julius Caesar, and Charlemagne. A few years after that, authors started identifying a female pantheon of worthies as well. And much like the actual Seven Wonders, nobody ever agreed who exactly was and was not on the list. First of all, I love the spark of the seven worthies.

[28:14] Laura Camien: Seven worthies.

[28:15] Susan Blackwell: It's a great name for something.

[28:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:17] Susan Blackwell: Band name. Pickets, the seven worthies. Um, he goes on to say sometimes I run across people whom I don't feel are good fits for full entries. Sometimes it's because their stories are so short or because they didn't have the right amount of struggle in their lives to make for a really interesting story. Most of the time it's because they died within recent memory. As a rule, I don't do entries on people who have been alive in the past 50 years out of respect. But there's so many, but I've seen him break that rule, I will say. But there are so many awesome and interesting women. What to do? Enter Modern Worthies, a showcase for just such women. One of the reasons he shares these links to information about these women is with the aim of building a map slash database of modern day interesting women as a resource to everyone.

It really is like this open source treasure trove of sparks, and it's really diverse too, which I appreciate. He covers subjects from throughout history, from all over the globe, trans women, gay women, women from myths and legends. It's really, really um, I fell into this rabbit hole, and I was, I was like, I will come back here for more sparks.

[29:33] Laura Camien: Oh hell yeah.

[29:34] Susan Blackwell: It was so hard to pick who to talk about, like who to highlight because many women. It gives you spark blindness. It's crazy. It's really, really good. Also, just gives you a sense of, I mean, for me, like it's so exciting and all so bittersweet because uh it's just a reminder of the truly millions of women that we've not learned about that haven't their stories haven't been told. Because it is all about like who tells your story. My hope is, and maybe this is um Pollyanna. We were talking about on a recent episode how you brought up the idea of you die two deaths, one is when you die, and the second is the last time somebody says your name, which I think is a very cocoa sort of idea.

[30:26] Laura Camien: Did I say that?

[30:27] Susan Blackwell: I actually don't remember that. I don't know where I got that, but someone deserves to be credited.

[30:33] Laura Camien: Okay.

[30:34] Susan Blackwell: Um to that idea, he is keeping these stories alive, these names alive, so that I think there's possibility in people accessing these stories and not just through Jason's work, but other people's good work, so that um so that maybe these stories do get cracked open and do get told.

[30:55] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[30:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, exactly. And that they could have been lost forever until someone picked up a torch and said, We're gonna keep lighting this torch and keep telling this story to make sure it's a good thing. And maybe lost to us, maybe you know, but clearly the resources in many cases are out there. It just takes somebody who has this sort of like dog with a bone mentality to uh he will find everything he can on a subject that he's interested in. He will read everything he can, and in that I feel like he sort of takes one for the team in that sense.

[31:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[31:31] Susan Blackwell: I'm truly in awe.

[31:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. In the Artgasm podcast with Alison Moon, Alison Moon asked Jason Porath what kept him going during the development and making of this project, which not only has taken a great deal of time and capacity, but like any other project that has any visibility, he's been trolled, he's been criticized greatly for all the aforementioned reasons. But he said basically his why, his purpose goes back to his mom. He describes his mom as this badass woman who, for her first three birthdays with Jason's stepdad, got a chainsaw, a flamethrower, and a power scythe. She raised eight boys.

[32:11] Laura Camien: Eight boys.

[32:12] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[32:13] Laura Camien: Eight boys.

[32:14] Susan Blackwell: Wow. She reshingled her roof without any help from her adult sons. This is just to describe the kind of person she is. Um, he describes his mom with great admiration how he will never be as smart as his mom. She also grew up in Kentucky in the 50s where smart women weren't prized. She was a cheerleader. She day dated a dude from the football team. In her 30s, she divorced her first husband, found Mensa, and really started flourishing. Really, like all of this uh intelligence and all of these interests and passions rose to the surface. And then she had to make a choice about if she would pursue all of these passions and intellectual pursuits or be a mom. And she chose to be a mom.

[32:58] Laura Camien: Jason Porath felt like he wanted to pay his mom back somehow. He says he knows he can't go back in time and help his mom in Kentucky when she was 13, 14, 15. But he feels like his work could help someone who is in his mom's position at that age, someone who feels like an aberration, that there was something wrong with them, that there's never been anyone in history like them. And that's what kept him going. Because I mean, the amount of work that this person has generated is kind of remarkable.

[33:32] Laura Camien: He's really gets some shit done.

[33:35] Susan Blackwell: So what has been made of this? If you're Jason Porath, you make a fantastic website, two great books. Rejected Princesses is the first one, and his second book is called Tough Mothers. And I just the cover of this book is sort of, if I can describe it, it's sort of a crest of it, looks like sort of a royal crest, right?

[33:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:58] Susan Blackwell: And in the crest is a bear standing up on its back, two legs.

[34:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:03] Susan Blackwell: And there's a little baby. The mama bear. And there's like a little baby bear cub kind of like holding on to its like butt fur. Um, so great books. But in addition to fun, rich, diverse content, Jason has organized his stuff really well. On his website, the search functionality lets you filter by things like types of subject. So you can look for martial, intellectual, professional, rascal, regal, strange.

[34:30] Laura Camien: Wow.

[34:31] Susan Blackwell: Also sorted by rating G, P G, P G 13, R.

[34:36] Laura Camien: Wow.

[34:37] Susan Blackwell: Personality types, heroic, villainous, mixed story types, a beat mixed, downer, offbeat. You can search by the person's name. You can search by when they lived. It is incredibly and this is free for everyone. Just open source.

[34:49] Laura Camien: Wow.

[34:51] Susan Blackwell: Wow. His books are also organized really, really smartly. In spite of the cartoony illustration style, the books pull no punches and it's not censored. So Jason has these helpful guide markers at the top of each story. He ranks each story's maturity level from one to five. And he also indicates if the story contains violence, abuse, sex, rape, or self-harm. So if you start at the front of the book, it's so smart the way he does it. If you start at the front of the book, you have stories that are good for kids. And by the time you reach the end of the book, you have some real life torture porn content.

[35:30] Laura Camien: Like I oh my God.

[35:33] Susan Blackwell: I was reading it to Nathan in the waiting area while we were having our car serviced very quietly, very, very quietly. It was near the back of the book, and he was like, babe, you have to stop. Because if people hear you, they're going to be traumatized. It gets intense because the lives of these subjects were it's and at some points, yeah, very what they went through. I I I was like, should I give an example of that? And I was like, no, it is it is insane in the membrane. What some of these women have either been through, had have had inflicted upon them, or what they have it inflicted upon others, it gets very adult. Even I I was like, I would dip my eyes down into a story and be like, nope, whoa, nope, can't do it. Can't do it.

[36:23] Laura Camien: I like his warning system though.

[36:26] Susan Blackwell: I love it. Great. And how if like if you're having a kinder, gentler sort of day, you could that's not for me to do it. You could just keep it near the front of the book. It's really good. Um, all of this is to say that Jason Porath has beautifully organized this labor of love, which the type A organizer in me finds deeply, deeply sparkish. Um, but what do we make of this? Take your motherfucking picks.

[36:48] Laura Camien: Seriously.

[36:51] Susan Blackwell: If you dream of writing the next big kick-ass thing, if you're looking for a kick-ass subject who is a woman or a girl, and you want to find some great early sparks of inspiration, start by taking a spin through the works of Jason Porath.

[37:09] Laura Camien: Yes.

[37:10] Susan Blackwell: Teachers, heads up. I also think if curated properly, this could make for great curriculum to get people of all ages into history and myth and legend from around the world.

[37:24] Laura Camien: You will want to curate it though, because as I said, sure it gets super duperty duper adult.

[37:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But that is that is my spark. And I'm sticking to it.

[37:33] Laura Camien: Yes.

[37:35] Susan Blackwell: I'm so sparked by it. I actually am like, can we cancel everything? I just want to go spend some time on the website. Honestly. Clear your calendar because it is it was it, you it's just like gem after gem after spark after gem after spark after gem.

[37:50] Laura Camien: Man, I could see uh I was just visualizing uh an exhibit of paintings that is all women done in the style of all of the you know 200-year-old paintings that we see of men in there, you know, on the battlefield.

[38:05] Susan Blackwell: Um but but it's women, yeah.

[38:09] Laura Camien: Um because they deserve to be on those walls or to mix it, mix it right in with all of those same men whose stories we learn about all worthy stories, but let's get some ladies up there too.

[38:22] Susan Blackwell: I can also imagine a photograph series that that sort of um recreates and represents some of these lives.

[38:33] Laura Camien: Also very sparked by what he does, where he brings in all of those, like in classic portraiture, you bringing those details and those signs and symbols that represent different parts of their lives.

[38:44] Susan Blackwell: Um would be super cool. Here's to you, Jason.

[38:48] Laura Camien: So thank you, Jason. Rejectedprincesses.com, check it out.

[38:52] Susan Blackwell: And both those books are really, really fun to do.

[38:56] Laura Camien: I'm going to that website right now.

[38:58] Susan Blackwell: Bye.

[39:00] Laura Camien: Suze, that spark was so flipping good.

[39:04] Susan Blackwell: Wow, came. I mean, I want to share my spark with you, but I am also really torn because I would like to go spend some time on that website.

[39:11] Laura Camien: This is uh I feel like this is a spark where I can I um I can take no credit. I this is all it's all him.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: It's it's but you shared it with us.

[39:22] Laura Camien: I know, but that's what matters.

[39:24] Susan Blackwell: I like it.

[39:25] Laura Camien: I like Jason, I like his work.

[39:27] Susan Blackwell: I like it too. What have you got for me today, Camadong?

[39:31] Laura Camien: Hey, I wanted to talk about um you kind of know Suze. Like I've spent a lot of my life around the Astor Place area of New York City.

[39:41] Susan Blackwell: You sure have Astor Place Theater where Blue Man Group played for several decades, is still playing.

[39:47] Laura Camien: Um I was there for several decades and spent most of my time there. So for those of you who don't live in New York City, Astor Place is a location downtown. It's really just one block long.

[40:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh, that's right.

[40:02] Laura Camien: That's right. Oh, it's just one block, but people refer to the connecting streets in this area as Astor Place. It connects the major streets of Broadway and Lafayette right around 8th Street. It's considered the East Village or Noho, which is north of Halston part of town. Um, but it is home, as I said, to the Astor Place Theater. And across the street from the Blue Man Group Theater is the public theater where so many incredible performances have been made, many of which go on to play Broadway or tour around the country. So a lot of great work and great things happen in this area.

[40:38] Susan Blackwell: It really is an epicenter.

[40:40] Laura Camien: It is. It is. And suffice to say, I love this part of town. Like it holds a great deal of personal history for me.

[40:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[40:49] Laura Camien: But my spark for this week, I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into the history of this neighborhood and specifically the deadly Astor Place riots that took place in May of 1849.

[41:03] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[41:04] Laura Camien: They were started. Have you heard of them?

[41:06] Susan Blackwell: No.

[41:07] Laura Camien: Okay. Well, I'm going to tell you all about them. But there were deadly riots that took place in the Astor Place area.

[41:13] Susan Blackwell: And they were started by all things over a competition between two actors.

[41:21] Laura Camien: That's right.

[41:22] Susan Blackwell: That's right. It's the craziest story. But to really understand what happened, let me give you some context.

[41:28] Susan Blackwell: If you recall, our newfound little baby nation fought a war against the British in order to gain our independence. That war was over around 1783, and we were done fighting at that point.

[41:42] Laura Camien: This is good.

[41:43] Susan Blackwell: This is the way I need to learn history.

[41:45] Laura Camien: Okay.

[41:45] Susan Blackwell: Slow.

[41:46] Laura Camien: Is it better when I talk really slowly?

[41:48] Susan Blackwell: Well, just like slow it down. Let's put it this way as if I'm hearing it for the first time. I find like I love digging into historical sparks, but then I have to literally sit and do the math for a minute of like how that relates. So what time period? When so that other person I learned about, were they alive when this person was doing this? I mean, we just don't learn about it, or at least I did not learn about it contemporaneously. So it's sort of like this was happening here.

[42:22] Laura Camien: And also I feel like sometimes we get confused because if you like if you're looking to things like the Flintstones for history, like somebody like me is, then you're led to believe that human beings were walking around with this and writing out dinosaurs.

[42:38] Susan Blackwell: If you got your history from the Flintstones, we've got bigger.

[42:41] Laura Camien: I'm not saying I did or didn't. That would be confusing. Um, okay, so here we are. So 1783, as our little nation, you know, we have quote unquote gained our independence and we were done fighting at that point. But the tensions are still there.

[43:03] Susan Blackwell: And as we are trying to sort ourselves out as a new country, a few years go by and the British and the French get into a war. And if you recall, France helped us win our war against the British.

[43:17] Laura Camien: Yes.

[43:18] Susan Blackwell: So we were doing trade deals with them. The Brits got mad, we got mad that they tried to stop us from trading with the French. Long story short, we entered into another war called the War of 1812. Have you heard of that one?

[43:31] Laura Camien: I have heard of it.

[43:33] Susan Blackwell: So I didn't really, I had heard of it too, but I didn't really think about the fact that, like, oh, the War of 1812 was like 30 years after we gained our independence. And it's really kind of just a continuation of like, we're not done fighting yet. We're not really truly like we haven't really asserted ourselves as a country, British, you can't tell us what to do. Fuck off. Yeah, you know.

[43:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[43:57] Susan Blackwell: So we fight them again. And we come out pretty battered, but we win. And so now finally here we are, 1812, and it's like, okay, for reals this time. We are our own country.

[44:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[44:14] Susan Blackwell: And we think it's gonna stick. Does that make sense?

[44:17] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[44:17] Susan Blackwell: We're our own nation.

[44:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:19] Susan Blackwell: Bada bing. So here we are. 1812. This period of time between the War of 1812 and our Civil War is about a 50 year period. It's usually referred to as the antebellum period. Have you heard that term?

[44:38] Laura Camien: I've heard that term.

[44:39] Susan Blackwell: So that's what that's referring to. It's prior to our Civil War when we figure out, like we fight about slavery among other things. Um, but between this 50 years, 1812, this war, and the Civil War, 1860s, was really a time when the US started to exert kind of who we are. It's sort of like imagine you're, I don't even know if we'd say teenage years, probably adolescent years when your personality is starting to form.

[45:09] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[45:09] Susan Blackwell: Right. And we're trying to try it on. We're trying it all on.

[45:12] Laura Camien: That's right.

[45:14] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. We're breaking some rules, just testing the boundaries. What are we doing here? Um, so all of that is happening, and a lot of tensions you know, are escalating. Obviously, we end up at war with ourselves at, you know, in the 1860s. But here we are. That's just to give you some context. Here we are in the 1840s. Tensions are building, uh huh.

[45:42] Laura Camien: Right.

[45:42] Susan Blackwell: We're 20 years before we're leading up to the Civil War. I have to tell you I'm just like hanging I'm hanging on your every word because sometimes this stuff is so hard for me to take in and to learn that I'm just like I that's why I probably look like an idiot right now because I'm just are you tracking though does this make sense?

[45:42] Laura Camien: I'm tracking, I'm tracking like we fought a war yeah to gain our independence we fought another war to make sure we're locked up independence.

[45:42] Susan Blackwell: That's right that was um that so 1812 the War of 1812 then there was a 50 year antebellum period between the War of 1812 and the Civil War in the 1860s it's basically we fought with the British we fought the British again yeah and then later we fought with ourselves I'm with you right okay so here we are it's the 1840s.

[45:42] Laura Camien: Goddamn listening this must think I'm a fucking idiot.

[45:42] Susan Blackwell: No no I think probably people are like awesome I needed to learn that too. Uh I honestly like I said every time I dig into one of these I have to be like okay wait why is this happening and how does that relate to this other thing the puzzle pieces click into place.

[45:42] Laura Camien: Okay okay that's right okay okay all right so we're in the 1840s we're figuring out who we are tensions are building everywhere but particularly in New York City the upper class is really pulling ahead and away the gap is widening a gap we see even more amplified today like the financial like that's right okay that's why I like I love these stories that like illustrate like things are still happening today, and we look back, we're like, Well, this is looking a hundred more than a hundred years ago.

[47:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:22] Laura Camien: So a poet at that time, Nathaniel Parker Willis coined the term the upper 10,000 or the upper tens, which would be like the one percent as we call them today. But they would call them the upper tens, and it was like the upper 10,000 people who really were it was the Vanderbilts, it was the Rockefellers, like they had invested their money in a certain way and were like, whoo, now they're making bank like nobody's business. The wealthy just got wealthier, but they also at the same time there it was confusing because they also kind of represented the opportunity that America offered. So someone like John Jacob Astor, he was a German immigrant, he worked in a butcher shop, he eventually made a fortune in the fur business, and then he sold that business and he got into New York City real estate. He was the richest man in America.

[48:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh he was the Warren Buffett, he was the Mark Zuckerberg, he was the you know Jeff Bezos, Jeff Bezos. He was the first multi-millionaire in our country, and he got there through hard work. So people were not dissimilar to today. People were disgusted by how much if you have money, how much money you can make, and also inspired by well, hey, if he can take it, if he can get off a boat from another country and make himself the first multimillionaire of the country, then there's hope for me.

[48:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, so we still have um like this really frustrating relationship to wealth. Um, but it goes all the way back to the origins of our country. A fun fact for you, Susan, yes, John Jacob Astor. So there's a piece of artwork in the subway station at Astor Place, and I know you love subway station art. It's like a tile uh image of a beaver, then it seems kind of random, like what's this beaver doing in the Astor Place subway?

[49:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[49:31] Laura Camien: And it's a reference to the fur trade of how John Jacob Astor made his money.

[49:39] Susan Blackwell: Wait, is it on the uptown track or the downtown track?

[49:42] Laura Camien: I think it's on the downtown.

[49:44] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[49:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:45] Susan Blackwell: I'll look for that beaver.

[49:47] Laura Camien: Yep.

[49:47] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So look at that. Thanks. Um, so as I said, the gap was growing, but on the bright side in this particular moment, industrialization, so a lot of these wealthy guys, job creators, were making jobs that allowed a working class to develop for the first time. So these are hardworking people who are now making a livable wage, maybe even with a few dollars to spare, not wealthy at all, but had a little tiny bit of expendable income.

[50:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, you know.

[50:21] Susan Blackwell: Um, so that's where we are. But then here come the immigrants.

[50:28] Laura Camien: Does this sound familiar?

[50:29] Susan Blackwell: It does. It's so crazy to me. I'm like, are we still fighting over the same shit?

[50:35] Laura Camien: Yes.

[50:35] Susan Blackwell: So here come the immigrants, and the working class that I just described was very worried that these immigrants were gonna take their jobs.

[50:45] Laura Camien: Okay.

[50:45] Susan Blackwell: Or they would keep the wages from being livable.

[50:49] Laura Camien: Yeah. Now, interestingly, unlike today, they probably had a bit more reason to worry because labor laws had not been developed yet. So if you could find someone to work for less or someone who was willing to work an 18-hour day, that person might actually be a threat to your job.

[51:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: Because there was nothing keeping from um employers from doing that. Wow. Um, and literally there's stories of people getting right off the ship from wherever they're coming from and being bombarded immediately with like join the army, come work for me, come do this, because they're so so grateful to have a job, they would most likely agree to some pretty poor conditions.

[51:35] Laura Camien: Conditions.

[51:36] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Um, so it actually was a threat, but now it's not legal. So we actually don't have quite as much to worry about on that front.

[51:45] Laura Camien: Right.

[51:45] Susan Blackwell: But in the 30 year period leading up to the riots, there was an explosion of immigration. In the eighteen twenties, a hundred and twenty-eight thousand immigrants came into the US. By eighteen forties, one point four million immigrants came to the US.

[52:02] Laura Camien: Wow.

[52:03] Susan Blackwell: Some of that was hey, this country is a real thing. Like I said, like they won the war of eighteen twelve, and it's like, oh, this is legit. Stories coming back when you get off the boat. There are people that are throwing jobs at you.

[52:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:18] Susan Blackwell: And you hear the stories of the John Jacob Asters and the people who are making a lot of money.

[52:24] Laura Camien: The old American dream.

[52:25] Susan Blackwell: Right. But you also had a shit ton of people. Sorry for not more specific numbers there. Um of Irish people who were fleeing the Great Famine, literally starving to death in Ireland. And if they could, they could get on a boat and get here. And because of that influx, the population of New York City grew from 80,000 people to 700,000 people in a very short span of time.

[52:58] Laura Camien: Wow.

[52:59] Susan Blackwell: So as I said, tension. Tension. Tension just are really, really high. I can't imagine living in a place where the population, you know, seven times over in 20 years. You know what I mean? That's in your lifetime, and you're just seeing like things are changing constantly.

[53:18] Laura Camien: So the working class is often epitomized by various gangs of New York. One gang in particular is called the Bowery Boys, which again is just a few blocks from the Astor place. And the Astor place is where all the wealthy people lived. The Astors, the Vanderbilts, the Delanoes, they all lived here and just a few blocks away, the working class, the Bowery boys and gals. And they were rough and tumble, they were hard working, they were proud. They had a certain slang to, you know, the way they spoke, and they were proud of that. They were anti-immigration, they were anti-Catholic, and they were all about America asserting our independence and freedom.

[54:04] Susan Blackwell: They had an absolute disdain for the aristocracy.

[54:08] Laura Camien: It's so interesting because where did they come from? Who are they? If they're they're that working class.

[54:11] Susan Blackwell: I know, but if they're anti-immigration, everybody, unless you're indigenous, is an immigrant.

[54:19] Laura Camien: Unless you they had a very short memory and they forgot that.

[54:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I think they had a very short memory. And you had, so let's say fifty years of this country being a country, and it's a little bit of like we got here first. We got here first. We did the hard work. We got here first, we fought the British, yeah. We fought the British again. Yeah. And now you're coming over and you're gonna take our jobs.

[54:44] Laura Camien: Got it. But the ironic thing about them being anti-immigration, besides what you've already mentioned, is that the Irish, which I as I said was the majority of the immigrants coming in at this time, um, they had a common enemy in hating the British and hating the wealthy.

[55:04] Susan Blackwell: So they actually could bond in a way, even though they were anti-immigration, their groups were aligned in this sense.

[55:12] Laura Camien: Like we can all agree we hate the wealthy, we hate the British.

[55:15] Susan Blackwell: Many of the Irish blamed the British government for the Great Famine.

[55:19] Laura Camien: So they blame the British for the fact that they even had to come over here or that they lost family members.

[55:24] Susan Blackwell: Got it. You know what I mean?

[55:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:26] Susan Blackwell: Now, at this time in history, the mid-1800s, all classes of people went to the theater.

[55:32] Laura Camien: It's kind of an amazing thing.

[55:35] Susan Blackwell: They everyone enjoyed it, it was truly for everyone to be entertained.

[55:39] Laura Camien: It was for everyone.

[55:40] Susan Blackwell: But there wasn't yet like an American theater voice, if you will.

[55:46] Laura Camien: Like the traditions hadn't been formed yet.

[55:49] Susan Blackwell: They were holdovers from the British theatrical traditions.

[55:52] Laura Camien: But times were starting to change in this moment.

[55:55] Susan Blackwell: So the Bowery boys would bring rowdy crowds to the theater.

[55:59] Laura Camien: Oh man.

[56:00] Susan Blackwell: And if they liked a song or a dance, like they might demand that you do it again.

[56:05] Laura Camien: Wow.

[56:05] Susan Blackwell: Loved it. Wanna see that again?

[56:07] Laura Camien: If they didn't like you, you were gonna hear about that loudly.

[56:10] Susan Blackwell: Or you're gonna have things thrown at you.

[56:13] Laura Camien: They drank, they smoked, they cavorted with prostitutes at the theater.

[56:16] Susan Blackwell: It was fun for the whole family.

[56:18] Laura Camien: It was everybody's in on this good time.

[56:20] Susan Blackwell: So during this time, the first real American stage star made a name for himself.

[56:28] Laura Camien: His name was Edwin Forrest.

[56:30] Susan Blackwell: He played the Bowery Theater, the Broadway Theater, and he played an American version of Shakespeare.

[56:37] Laura Camien: Powerful, body, energized.

[56:40] Susan Blackwell: And he even toured the country, like gaining fame.

[56:43] Laura Camien: He toured England doing Shakespeare, which is fucking ballsy.

[56:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Um, he and his style were met with general acclaim over there, like maybe not robust enthusiasm, but the Brits didn't hate him, which was pretty impressive.

[56:59] Laura Camien: They were okay with him.

[57:01] Susan Blackwell: But at the time, the most preeminent British Shakespearean actor was a man named William Charles McCready.

[57:08] Laura Camien: He was popular in England as well as the US.

[57:11] Susan Blackwell: He had toured the U.S. several times. Um, but he performed in the more traditional, subdued, genteel, refined style of performance at the time.

[57:23] Laura Camien: And he was part of this high culture approach to theater.

[57:28] Susan Blackwell: So you see, even with our theatrical performances, Americans were really beginning to define themselves.

[57:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:36] Susan Blackwell: Like this is who we are.

[57:38] Laura Camien: Forrest was wildly masculine.

[57:41] Susan Blackwell: He was incredibly popular with the working class.

[57:43] Laura Camien: They could see themselves in him.

[57:46] Susan Blackwell: Representation matters, people.

[57:49] Laura Camien: Representation matters.

[57:50] Susan Blackwell: They were like, like all they needed to see was themselves up on stage.

[57:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:56] Susan Blackwell: Um, and the beauty of Shakespeare sidebar. I mean, it can be the same words but perform differently and speak to different people.

[58:04] Laura Camien: So for several years, Edwin Forrest and William Charles McCready were fighting for the title of the best Shakespearean actor.

[58:11] Susan Blackwell: And for the most part, it was friendly and it was good spirited.

[58:16] Laura Camien: But then things took a negative turn.

[58:19] Susan Blackwell: Uh-oh.

[58:19] Laura Camien: And really, I don't know if this was personal or if the media realized they could sell more papers and the theaters could sell more tickets, if they like really pumped up the rivalry.

[58:31] Susan Blackwell: Sure, sure.

[58:32] Laura Camien: So there was a report in one of the papers in the British press that Forrest had hissed at McCready during a performance.

[58:40] Susan Blackwell: And that was all they needed to like really turn on him.

[58:44] Laura Camien: Yes.

[58:46] Susan Blackwell: So then William Charles McCready comes to the US for a tour.

[58:50] Laura Camien: And Edwin Forrest, and I don't know, maybe as publicist, not sure who's whose idea this was, but Edwin decides he's gonna travel to the same cities and perform Shakespeare at a competing theater on the very same nights as William.

[59:05] Susan Blackwell: No.

[59:05] Laura Camien: So they're gonna just like travel our tiny newborn country and perform um theater.

[59:13] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[59:14] Laura Camien: Yeah. And that is a that's a spark.

[59:16] Susan Blackwell: That's a spark.

[59:18] Laura Camien: If you're like a rapper and you have beef with another rapper to like shadow their tour and just like be at a East Coast, West Coast venue in the same town, like basically splitting ticket sales and taunting them.

[59:35] Susan Blackwell: You know, it would be amazing if it was strategic and it was yeah, it was all planned from the inside.

[59:41] Laura Camien: It could be an amazing piece of marketing.

[59:44] Susan Blackwell: Well, credit goes to Edwin Forrest for doing this for what, as far as we know, was the first time.

[59:49] Laura Camien: Wow.

[59:49] Susan Blackwell: And he kind of set up this idea of an American versus an immigrant as a choice for viewers.

[59:55] Laura Camien: So, like what you're saying, East Coast versus West Coast, like who are you gonna buy a ticket to go to British a British immigrant?

[1:00:00] Susan Blackwell: That's right, American versus a quote unquote immigrant.

[1:00:02] Laura Camien: Right, but in this case being British.

[1:00:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[1:00:06] Laura Camien: So Forrest supporters would go to McCready's performances and hiss at him wherever he went.

[1:00:13] Susan Blackwell: But shows went on and audiences still appreciated, and again, generally good spirited through the country.

[1:00:19] Laura Camien: But meanwhile, back in New York, tensions were running high and just increasing.

[1:00:27] Susan Blackwell: And I should say at this time that riots at theater were quite common. Um it was something, it was kind of part of the show.

[1:00:36] Laura Camien: Like they might be protesting actors that were cast or a song sung in the show.

[1:00:42] Susan Blackwell: The theater owners might be using it a little bit to publicize the show, but it was it could be anything.

[1:00:48] Laura Camien: But people would literally like there's gonna be a riot at the theater, quote unquote riot, meaning protest, basically.

[1:00:54] Susan Blackwell: They show up for the 10 minutes before the show, screaming or rabble, rabble, rabble, and then they're gonna have a hamburger, yeah.

[1:01:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:01:04] Susan Blackwell: So um, but that was kind of a normal thing.

[1:01:07] Laura Camien: They were planned, people showed up, they participated, then they went for a drink.

[1:01:11] Susan Blackwell: Just kind of a thing to do.

[1:01:14] Laura Camien: But when McCready returned to New York for the final performances of his tour, he was scheduled to play McBeth at the Astor Opera House.

[1:01:24] Susan Blackwell: Now, nothing could have been a bigger F you to the crowds in New York than playing at the Astor Place Opera House.

[1:01:31] Laura Camien: Remember how I said that John Jacob Astor was the richest man in America?

[1:01:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:01:36] Laura Camien: Well, the Astor Opera House was literally built to keep the Riffraff out.

[1:01:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh boy.

[1:01:42] Laura Camien: It was built to be like in response to like all of this rowdiness at the theaters. We're going to build a legit high culture theater where the wealthy can go.

[1:01:54] Susan Blackwell: They required a tuxedo, white vest, kid gloves, gowns for women.

[1:02:01] Laura Camien: The prices were sky high.

[1:02:03] Susan Blackwell: So you have you keep people out with the prices, you keep people out with the dress code.

[1:02:07] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:02:08] Susan Blackwell: And do we know where this is located?

[1:02:11] Laura Camien: We do.

[1:02:11] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna tell.

[1:02:12] Laura Camien: I'm so excited.

[1:02:13] Susan Blackwell: So the entire theater was designed for the comfort of the upper class.

[1:02:18] Laura Camien: Instead of benches, which was the norm for theaters at the time, they introduced the upholstered seats.

[1:02:25] Susan Blackwell: The seats were available only by subscription.

[1:02:28] Laura Camien: This is like when the movie theaters put in the recliners and you could choose your seat and have a meal brought to you.

[1:02:35] Susan Blackwell: Can you imagine?

[1:02:36] Laura Camien: So there hasn't been a theatrical revolution since the benches benches turned to a hundred years later, we have Sippy Cups and Rattle that ice.

[1:02:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:50] Laura Camien: All right. So this was big at the time, though, and it was a huge message to the quote unquote normal people who all of whom went to the theater.

[1:02:59] Susan Blackwell: And suddenly there's this grand, glorious building they're not invited to out.

[1:03:05] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:03:05] Susan Blackwell: So you could get the fancy seats only by subscription.

[1:03:10] Laura Camien: There were two tiers of boxes, as you see, like in opera houses.

[1:03:14] Susan Blackwell: And then for the others who might want to see the show, they allowed for 500 general admission patrons to sit on benches way up high, reachable only by a narrow stairway, and isolated from the fancy people below.

[1:03:31] Laura Camien: Gotcha.

[1:03:32] Susan Blackwell: So this area was commonly called the cockloft, which I think is a fucking fabulous word.

[1:03:32] Laura Camien: The cockloft.

[1:03:40] Susan Blackwell: See in the cockloft.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: That's a good name for a bar.

[1:03:43] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:03:44] Laura Camien: Cockloft.

[1:03:45] Susan Blackwell: Hello. Good spark.

[1:03:47] Laura Camien: So those people still had to pay higher prices and arrive clean shaven, etc.

[1:03:53] Susan Blackwell: But you could get in. That was one way that you could get into the opera house if you wanted.

[1:03:58] Laura Camien: So suffice to say, this was not an experience most of New York could partake in, and it symbolized the very tension of the day.

[1:04:06] Susan Blackwell: So on May 7th, 1849, when the British actor William Charles McCready played McBeth at the Astor Place Opera House, Forrest fans were ready to show him what's what.

[1:04:22] Laura Camien: The Bowery Boys and others had arranged a protest outside the theater, but they also bought tickets to the show.

[1:04:29] Susan Blackwell: Cockloft.

[1:04:30] Laura Camien: In the cockloft.

[1:04:32] Susan Blackwell: So forest supporters bought hundreds of tickets and they attacked McCready with a wave of hissing and yelling, and all the other actors too.

[1:04:42] Laura Camien: Like the night of the show, they threw rotten eggs, onions, all of it.

[1:04:48] Susan Blackwell: They were so loud, the actors couldn't hear each other speak.

[1:04:53] Laura Camien: So event at first they tried to um like yell over it.

[1:04:58] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:04:58] Laura Camien: They couldn't.

[1:04:59] Susan Blackwell: So then they continued for a while in pantomime, just doing d literally the motions of the show.

[1:05:06] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:05:06] Susan Blackwell: But then the some of the forest supporters up in the loft threw furniture down onto the stage, and that was it.

[1:05:16] Laura Camien: That's when they like stopped the show, they closed the curtain, they were like, we're good.

[1:05:20] Susan Blackwell: We're gonna now you've spoiled it for everyone.

[1:05:23] Laura Camien: This is I'm so I'm just sitting here thinking 500 people in the cock loft.

[1:05:27] Susan Blackwell: That's a lot of seats.

[1:05:28] Laura Camien: 500 seats in the city.

[1:05:29] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:05:29] Laura Camien: Which means this theater is huge.

[1:05:32] Susan Blackwell: Huge.

[1:05:33] Laura Camien: It's huge.

[1:05:34] Susan Blackwell: I so it that could have been it.

[1:05:40] Laura Camien: That could have been like, okay, head back to Breakfast.

[1:05:45] Susan Blackwell: Bummer. That didn't go well.

[1:05:47] Laura Camien: But a group of New York City elite, including Washington Irving, Herman Melville, they were embarrassed by the behavior of the ruffians in the crowd.

[1:05:58] Susan Blackwell: So they signed a petition and they implored McCready to stay and do another performance, just complete his engagement.

[1:06:06] Laura Camien: That you basically like, we don't want you to go like this. Like this feels yucky.

[1:06:10] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Let's make this better.

[1:06:12] Laura Camien: Um, so he went on to agree to a final performance on May 10th.

[1:06:17] Susan Blackwell: Part of the note that assured him, you know, to stay, they wrote that they believed the good sense and respect for order prevailing in this community will sustain you on the subsequent nights of your performance.

[1:06:32] Laura Camien: So they just trusted, like they've the ra the ruffians have done their thing.

[1:06:37] Susan Blackwell: They got it out of their system.

[1:06:39] Laura Camien: We're gonna show you we can be a civilized community.

[1:06:41] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[1:06:42] Laura Camien: Good sense will prevail.

[1:06:44] Susan Blackwell: And so the show goes on.

[1:06:46] Laura Camien: Oh, that's a good story.

[1:06:49] Susan Blackwell: Edwin Forrest is also performing Macbeth just a few blocks away at a competing theater.

[1:06:54] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[1:06:56] Susan Blackwell: So whether it was the ruffians or the politicians, we don't really know, but placards started appearing all around the city, just inflaming the issue.

[1:07:07] Laura Camien: And it was like huge in huge writing, shall Americans or English rule this city.

[1:07:14] Susan Blackwell: So really pitting the.

[1:07:15] Laura Camien: So they were making it really, really political.

[1:07:19] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:07:19] Laura Camien: The big topic of the day is like again, you know, are the British gonna come and tell us how it has to be done.

[1:07:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:07:27] Laura Camien: So again, they're really challenging our idea of our independence, essentially.

[1:07:33] Susan Blackwell: And people rallied, like, we're not gonna be beaten by this stodgy old English actor of all people.

[1:07:40] Laura Camien: Like it's crazy.

[1:07:42] Susan Blackwell: So the sentiment was palpable and it was overflowing.

[1:07:45] Laura Camien: And the Astor Opera House braced for another protest.

[1:07:50] Susan Blackwell: But as people on the night of May 10th, as people gathered outside the theater, the crowd grew to like 10,000 people in total.

[1:08:00] Laura Camien: God, Astro Place isn't even that big.

[1:08:02] Susan Blackwell: Well, there were less buildings.

[1:08:04] Laura Camien: So not all those buildings were there.

[1:08:05] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, the police warned the mayor that they did not have the staff to deal with this.

[1:08:12] Laura Camien: So the militia is called in.

[1:08:14] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:08:15] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:08:16] Susan Blackwell: Inside the theater, the show starts promptly at 7:30, but the audience is really nervous.

[1:08:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:08:23] Susan Blackwell: They can hear the crowds outside.

[1:08:25] Laura Camien: It's so loud.

[1:08:26] Susan Blackwell: And a small number of anti-McCready audience members had made it past the police checkpoint and into the show.

[1:08:42] Laura Camien: Who knows? But the undercover cops inside the building grab him, grab them, the group of forest supporters, and they put them into a makeshift cell inside the opera house.

[1:08:55] Susan Blackwell: I don't know what that could be, just a locked room, I suppose maybe.

[1:08:59] Laura Camien: The oldie janitor's closet.

[1:09:01] Susan Blackwell: So McCready. Sorry, I was just picturing that.

[1:09:06] Laura Camien: Yeah, they're in the janitor's closet. Um, so McCready flees out the back door. Like he's scared at this point. Like that again, you hear the crowds outside. You know what happened the last time. Someone's just run at you on the stage.

[1:09:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:09:21] Laura Camien: So he flees out the back door in disguise, and he gets himself safely back to his hotel room. Needless to say, the show is not going to go on. The quote unquote prisoners in the opera house gather some wood shavings, held them up to a gaslight, and set their own cell on fire.

[1:09:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh no, burn the janitor's closet down.

[1:09:41] Laura Camien: No, no. The crowd outside is throwing bricks and stones through the windows of the opera house. Meanwhile, the militia has been told by the mayor that they cannot fire on the crowd. But it's truly getting out of control. And the city was constructing a sewer line at that time in the neighborhood. So there were piles of like paving stones.

[1:10:02] Susan Blackwell: Oh boy.

[1:10:03] Laura Camien: On the street that they were going to be using.

[1:10:05] Susan Blackwell: AKA ammo.

[1:10:07] Laura Camien: Ammo. So the crowds start throwing them at police and really injuring them. Like you get hit in the head with that, so apparently, when the commanding officer tried to warn the crowd that they would have to fire back if they kept this up, people kept yelling things like, burn the damn den of aristocracy, or fire if you dare, take the life of a freeborn American for a bloody British actor. Like really putting it against like you're gonna choose this British actor over us.

[1:10:37] Susan Blackwell: This is not good.

[1:10:38] Laura Camien: This is crazy. So eventually the militia told the mayor, we're gonna leave if you don't let us fire on people. Like if you don't give us permission to fire, we're not just gonna stand here.

[1:10:50] Susan Blackwell: Get hit by cobblestones.

[1:10:51] Laura Camien: Right. So they got permission and they fired into the crowd. The first shots they shot over the heads of the crowds, obviously. They didn't want to hurt anyone. Just trying to snap them out of it. But the crowd was unintimidated and they kept at it. So the general ordered the men to fire again, point blank. Supposedly he said to aim low so we wouldn't kill people, but you'd have people like shot in the knees or in the legs. So they did that. And it took two more rounds to get people to disperse, like to really take seriously.

[1:11:28] Susan Blackwell: Jesus.

[1:11:29] Laura Camien: By the time it was all over, 22 people were dead.

[1:11:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh, and nearly a hundred officers were injured.

[1:11:36] Laura Camien: Oh badly injured. And at that point, it was the deadliest riot in New York City history. The next day the city became a temporary police state. Two thousand infantry patrolled the streets until everybody settled down.

[1:11:52] Susan Blackwell: Settled down, everybody.

[1:11:54] Laura Camien: Eventually the militia were acquitted of any wrongdoing, and 10 riot planners were sent to jail. As a result, law enforcement changes were made. Police were more armed, like procedures were changed. And this truly ended the tradition of riots at theaters. Like this was it. Obviously, people didn't even plan small little protests anymore.

[1:12:14] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[1:12:16] Laura Camien: The Astor Place Opera House, however, never recovered. It was now referred to as the Massacre Opera House or the Disaster Disaster Place Opera House. The venue was sold super cheap. It became the New York Mercantile Library for a time, also known as the Center for Fiction, which still exists today, but it's now over in Brooklyn. But eventually they tore the building down and they built a building they called Clinton Hall, which is still there today, although today it is a Starbucks.

[1:12:55] Susan Blackwell: Oh the Starbucks.

[1:12:58] Laura Camien: The Starbucks.

[1:13:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, right there. And that road, not 8th Street, but right there, that is Aster Place.

[1:13:07] Laura Camien: Okay. So where the Starbucks is, was that like where the entrance to the Astor Place Opera?

[1:13:13] Susan Blackwell: I think along there, maybe where Aubon Pont is now.

[1:13:18] Laura Camien: Got it.

[1:13:19] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean? Like I think the building spanned that whole block block.

[1:13:24] Laura Camien: That little block.

[1:13:25] Susan Blackwell: And it's it's not a rectiline or square kind of block. It's got some angle trying to dangle.

[1:13:32] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:13:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So that was a that was a huge change. It never recovered. And entertainment truly made a split at that time, like a real divide in popular culture. So vaudeville became the entertainment outlet for the common folk, the working class, like freedom of expression and participation. And sadly, Shakespeare, which had been so popular in every single class, young kids could recite Shakespeare on cue. It faded from popular culture and was relegated just to the upper class, the educated, the elite would continue to enjoy Shakespeare.

[1:14:18] Laura Camien: McCrady never returned to the US. He retired from the theater not long after. And I have to wonder if this event if it took its toll on him in ways like deeper than we'll ever know. He lived another 20 years but didn't perform. I can't imagine if you're an actor who has had somebody try to leap out of the audience and get you just that. Like it's so traumatic. Like I can't even imagine to feel like your life is in danger on stage.

[1:14:50] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it? I mean, personally, like I mentioned, I love a historical story that actually is a story about modern issues.

[1:15:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:00] Susan Blackwell: You know, like when you can hold a mirror up to where we are now by telling a story in the past. I love it. I think we're still in a class war. I think that we're still living in fear of immigrants taking our wages, and it would be an amazing way to illustrate some of the tensions we're feeling now.

[1:15:21] Laura Camien: Agreed.

[1:15:22] Susan Blackwell: I think. Um, I think you could do something crazy and write a comedy about a war between two actors that's really about something bigger than themselves, you know, minus the deaths, etc. But like what can you imagine what two like actors like battling anything out in this day, and what would that be for? I just think it's an interesting question.

[1:15:44] Laura Camien: I also think like I the next thing I want to make out of it most immediately is I want to make a little walk. I want to I feel like sometimes as we move through the world, it is so easy just to be like we walk the same roads, we see, yes, there's the sweet greens, there's the Starbucks, there's the album pain. But to even the thing you said about like the beaver in the subway station and what it means, the deeper story there. I want to, I think the next thing I want to make is an eye-opening walk.

[1:16:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:16:19] Laura Camien: Where I am, but specifically, I'm very interested in taking a spin around that area and also having some research about what it used to look like so I can contextualize the story.

[1:16:35] Susan Blackwell: A hundred percent. Like literally, my next bullet point is honor the neighborhood. Like I won't walk these streets the same, knowing what I know now and how many people died and what for. Um, the people, many of the people who were killed, I'd love to know more about too. Um, many of them were innocent bystanders.

[1:16:53] Laura Camien: I was I bet.

[1:16:57] Susan Blackwell: Right? Um just looky los.

[1:16:59] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I think like there's stories in their stories, and I also think we're due a story or two on Edwin Forrest, frankly, like a deeper dive into him. I went a little deeper, just scratched the surface, but wow, after all. After all of this, he had a crazy dramatic divorce from his wife, where, as best I can tell, he cheated on her, but then tried to get out of the marriage by claiming that she cheated on him, which at that time.

[1:17:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I mean, like we can think of it in modern times, but at that time, that would mean absolute ruin for the woman.

[1:17:35] Laura Camien: So that means getting out of your marriage, but fucking that other person so badly they couldn't have a life beyond it. Do you know what I mean?

[1:17:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:17:45] Laura Camien: Yeah, but there's more. So they battled it out, and eventually the court sided with her. And I think, you know, not great. I think he avoided paying her any alimony. But on the bright side, again, these complicated people, he did do great things for other actors. A few years after this, about 10, 15 years later, you may recall that an actor named John Wilkes Booth shot President Lincoln. So this time frame, actors were held in very low regard in our world. And so he created a home that would shelter retired actors, those who had given their life to performance, but then were really treated badly by society.

[1:18:32] Susan Blackwell: After he died, he instructed that his home should be called the Forest Home for Retired Actors in Philadelphia. It remained there for a hundred years until it was folded into the much larger actors fund.

[1:18:45] Laura Camien: Oh, we love the actors.

[1:18:46] Susan Blackwell: We love the actors fund. Actors Fund is a spark.

[1:18:49] Laura Camien: Right. To honor the work that he did helping other actors, there were two new theaters built, one in New York and one in Philadelphia. Both were initially named the Forest Theater in honor of him and his contributions. One, the one in Philly is still named after him, and the one in New York changed names a few times, but is now known as the Eugene O'Neill Theater.

[1:19:08] Susan Blackwell: Shut up.

[1:19:09] Laura Camien: That's right. And then I want to know what happened to McCready. I want to know. Someone please write a story, figure out after he retired. You know, what does that do to this? The sparks are here for some good historical fiction.

[1:19:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I think there's so many good stories to tell, and there's so many ways to tell them. Personally, I'm really grateful for this spark because I found out a lot of history that has literally been under my nose and under my feet for a long, long time. This is giving me a spark. Another thing that I want to make from this spark that is sparking a spark for me is I really do feel like, okay, wherever you are listening to this right now, wherever you are, if you're in a fixed position, even if you're traveling on a train or whatever, wherever you are, if you look in a one block or even like a one mile radius from where you are, there are sparks. Sparks buried on sparks. And then on top of that is another strata of sparks. Who has walked these streets?

[1:20:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:20:08] Susan Blackwell: What have they been doing when they did? I'm sparked by this spark.

[1:20:12] Laura Camien: Yay!

[1:20:13] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I say our next thing is let's go take a walk together.

[1:20:17] Laura Camien: We're gonna take a walk together, and I learned history.

[1:20:20] Susan Blackwell: History, which is not always easy for me to look at.

[1:20:22] Laura Camien: You got this.

[1:20:24] Susan Blackwell: But it helped me some puzzle pieces like clicked into place for me.

[1:20:28] Laura Camien: Thanks, Camps.

[1:20:29] Susan Blackwell: Yay.

[1:20:30] Laura Camien: That was so good.

[1:20:32] Susan Blackwell: Yours was so good.

[1:20:34] Laura Camien: Uh, sparks and sparks episode.

[1:20:36] Susan Blackwell: Sparks and sparks.

[1:20:37] Laura Camien: I guess that's it. We hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you've take a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you need to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[1:21:00] Susan Blackwell: Also, don't forget to follow us on social at the Sparkfile. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe rate, five star review it. If you like this podcast, won't you share it with people that you love? And if you didn't like it, farewell, Monami.

[1:21:15] Laura Camien: Adieu.

[1:21:16] Susan Blackwell: Adieu.

[1:21:17] Laura Camien: Adieu.

[1:21:19] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, my God, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:21:34] Laura Camien: You gotta light and dark it.

[1:21:36] Susan Blackwell: You got a creativity spark it.

[1:21:38] Laura Camien: You got a patty lapone and the baker's wife and full on Meadow Larket.

[1:21:43] Susan Blackwell: You gotta take it and make it.

[1:21:47] Laura Camien: Pew Pew Pew Pew.

[1:21:51] Susan Blackwell: Spark.

[1:21:52] Laura Camien: With a book into something that inspires me.

[1:21:56] Susan Blackwell: I dump it in the spark files.

[1:22:00] Laura Camien: Spark.

[1:22:01] Susan Blackwell: Could be something that I wanna take or how I wanna be.

[1:22:06] Laura Camien: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:22:09] Susan Blackwell: Spark.

[1:22:11] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark files.

[1:22:14] Susan Blackwell: Sparkfile.

[1:22:15] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark files.