This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark vibe.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark vibes! To be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be, I pump it in my spark style.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark!

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide. Let's open up the spark vibes.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparkvile, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:51] Laura Camien: If you're an OG member of the Sparkvile community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, baby Sparkler.

[0:59] Laura Camien: Welcome.

[1:00] Susan Blackwell: Welcome.

[1:01] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:07] Susan Blackwell: But hold up a second. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a sparkfile?

[1:12] Laura Camien: A sparkvile is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:18] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know, if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:27] Laura Camien: But don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:36] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:42] Laura Camien: Or a vivid wild forest imagination full of overgrown vegetation in the form of great unique ideas.

[1:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:57] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime, friends.

[2:04] Laura Camien: That's right. So if something lights you up, we implore you.

[2:09] Susan Blackwell: Please take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:12] Laura Camien: Without further ado, let's open up the Sparks file.

[2:18] Susan Blackwell: Laura Cammy, it's Sparks Day, and you know there's nothing I love more.

[2:23] Laura Camien: Spark Day is the best.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: Which day of the week is the best day of the week?

[2:26] Laura Camien: Spark Day.

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: Spark Day.

[2:28] Laura Camien: Spark Day's child is full of grace.

[2:30] Susan Blackwell: Spark Day's child has a sparky face.

[2:33] Laura Camien: Did you just write that?

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: So gifted.

[2:35] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[2:35] Susan Blackwell: So talented.

[2:36] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[2:37] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I'll remember a few episodes back, I talked about pandemic-related entertainment that I partook in during the pandemic.

[2:46] Laura Camien: But it wasn't about the actual pandemic we're living through.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: It was about like imaginary pandemics that people had written about before.

[2:53] Laura Camien: Yes, of course.

[2:54] Susan Blackwell: Of course.

[2:55] Laura Camien: And I said I read Station 11, the book, and that it was coming to HBO Max.

[3:01] Susan Blackwell: And it came to HBO Max.

[3:02] Laura Camien: It came to HBO Max.

[3:04] Susan Blackwell: I have not watched the finale yet, but I will say I'm up through like episode eight or nine.

[3:10] Laura Camien: And I think there's just one more to go.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: I've got to say they did an incredible job and really brought it to life in a bigger and better way than I would have even imagined.

[3:20] Laura Camien: I thought of you when I saw the trailer for that.

[3:25] Susan Blackwell: And at first I didn't connect the title.

[3:30] Laura Camien: I mean, there's a lot going on.

[3:31] Susan Blackwell: A lot going on.

[3:32] Laura Camien: As I was watching it, I was like, I know this story.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: Why do I know this story?

[3:37] Laura Camien: And I was like, I know it because of Laura Camien and the Sparks file.

[3:40] Susan Blackwell: And it's thrilling to know that the adaptation is serving you everything.

[3:46] Laura Camien: It's so good.

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: It's so good.

[3:49] Laura Camien: And there were things that I had forgotten, or for some reason, like didn't reach me in the prose form, but did punch me in the gut in this form.

[4:00] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[4:01] Laura Camien: Like I just found new things in the story that were fascinating.

[4:06] Susan Blackwell: And I was reminded of something.

[4:08] Laura Camien: I'm not spoiling any plot lines with this, but I will tell you just one of the most potent.

[4:14] Susan Blackwell: There's this there's a book that is a story within the story.

[4:18] Laura Camien: And in that book, there's a line that's like, I don't want to live the wrong life and then die.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: Oh, and God, it really gets me.

[4:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, it just makes me think about all those choices that we make every day.

[4:35] Susan Blackwell: Maybe we think there's time to make different choices eventually at some later date.

[4:41] Laura Camien: Maybe there is, and maybe there isn't.

[4:43] Susan Blackwell: Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

[4:45] Laura Camien: And the time is now to live the life that you are dreaming of living.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: That is a lovely sentiment.

[4:53] Laura Camien: And sometimes we've talked about this before, having that desire and not being able to figure out what exactly it is or how to get to it is so painful.

[5:04] Susan Blackwell: Woo!

[5:05] Laura Camien: Anyway, that's what's going on over here.

[5:06] Susan Blackwell: Well, this has been the Sparkfile podcast.

[5:10] Laura Camien: But the flip of it is not that it's either or, but looking at a different dimension, when you have taken the time and done the thought work to figure out what that thing is, and you've made movement towards it, that is thrilling.

[5:25] Susan Blackwell: Feels good.

[5:26] Laura Camien: And when everything is in alignment.

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[5:29] Laura Camien: But I've for years, for years heard that thing about like if you're doing work that you love that it won't feel like work.

[5:35] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, what specifically could that possibly mean to my life?

[5:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[5:42] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:42] Laura Camien: Need more specifics.

[5:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:44] Laura Camien: But when you find the thing and you realize, oh yeah, I mean, it is work.

[5:49] Susan Blackwell: That sounds like so magical to be like, I'm not even aware of the fact that I'm getting a paycheck for this, or that seems a little, you know, magical.

[5:59] Laura Camien: But when you realize like the work feels so good to do, and you're like, this is great.

[6:03] Susan Blackwell: There's a spark, maybe it's another spark for another day, but it was essentially I was sharing with you this thing that I saw.

[6:10] Laura Camien: Joe Spinoza talking about in one of his books, just talking about how you can get a new job, but until you re-characterize your relationship with work, it can still have those visceral feelings associated with a prior challenging work experience.

[6:26] Susan Blackwell: So I don't know, it's another spark for another day.

[6:29] Laura Camien: Once you finally do come into attunement with the work that you want to be doing, that you love, how you let it move through you.

[6:36] Susan Blackwell: I work on that every day.

[6:38] Laura Camien: Yeah, absolutely.

[6:40] Susan Blackwell: And work is just one piece of our lives, and the rest of it, I think still applies.

[6:45] Laura Camien: I don't want to live the wrong life and then die.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: So, you know, am I spending my free time in the way that I dream of spending my free time?

[6:55] Laura Camien: Am I making the things that I dream of making?

[6:58] Susan Blackwell: Are the people that I want to surround myself with, all of that stuff.

[7:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[7:04] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Station 11.

[7:06] Laura Camien: Good job, Station 11.

[7:07] Susan Blackwell: Good job, Dr.

[7:08] Laura Camien: Joe Spinoza.

[7:09] Susan Blackwell: Well done.

[7:09] Laura Camien: And again, this has been the Sparks Club Podcast.

[7:12] Susan Blackwell: But wait, there's more.

[7:14] Laura Camien: Are you gonna spark me?

[7:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God, Susan.

[7:16] Laura Camien: Are you gonna spark me good?

[7:17] Susan Blackwell: I am.

[7:18] Laura Camien: Right in the teeth.

[7:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm right in the kisser.

[7:21] Laura Camien: Um, this spark that I've got for you today is fun because there were these little baby sparks that ignited for me this week.

[7:31] Susan Blackwell: And then they kind of came together to ignite this little fire.

[7:35] Laura Camien: I'm gonna share with you today, Suze.

[7:37] Susan Blackwell: But they seemed random at first.

[7:40] Laura Camien: And then you were like, I see a constellation for you.

[7:43] Susan Blackwell: But there's something here.

[7:44] Laura Camien: Yeah, I was like, there's something here.

[7:46] Susan Blackwell: So we're gonna go with this.

[7:48] Laura Camien: I love it.

[7:49] Susan Blackwell: So Wes and I were talking recently over coffee, as we do, and we were talking about the phenomenon that we are all familiar with at this point, and that is the way that algorithms work online and on the socials to predict what we want to see or to buy.

[8:05] Laura Camien: And it's based on things we've thought or read or liked or purchased in the past.

[8:10] Susan Blackwell: So they serve us up the same things or similar types of things, right?

[8:14] Laura Camien: The same ideas or types of ideas over and over.

[8:17] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes it feels like the algorithm knows you better than you know yourself.

[8:22] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: We're gonna get into that, Suze.

[8:24] Laura Camien: If that's true, then you are unique.

[8:26] Susan Blackwell: You're having a unique experience.

[8:28] Laura Camien: All right. Long story short, we likely will not come across ideas that we viscerally disagree with unless we seek them out.

[8:37] Susan Blackwell: Like unless we seek out contrary opinions and contrary thought.

[8:41] Laura Camien: We wouldn't be aware, for example, of the fact that like half of the country is getting literally different news than we are, unless we seek it out.

[8:50] Susan Blackwell: So, like for me, on my Apple news feed, I make sure that I follow like the outlets that I trust, like NPR or BBC to get like the news news.

[9:01] Laura Camien: And then I follow an assortment of channels that are more, shall we say, political clickbait from both the right and the left, just so I can sort of maintain a general sense of like what kind of stories are being told and being believed at any given moment.

[9:16] Susan Blackwell: Long story short, I want a fuller picture, like intentionally and specifically.

[9:22] Laura Camien: I don't want to open my phone and read only the news that suits me or see only people that agree with me.

[9:29] Susan Blackwell: I think it's just dangerously easy to live in a bubble or an echo chamber, choose your descriptive word.

[9:35] Laura Camien: But it's a hall of mirrors and just as distorted.

[9:39] Susan Blackwell: So Wes and I were chatting, and I realized, oh, wouldn't it be great if you could go into your settings like for Google or on your iPhone or Apple News, what have you, your social sites, and click a box that's like, I would like to see alternate perspectives, or I would like to see a variety of perspectives because we don't really get a say in the algorithm, which is problematic and a bigger topic than we can cover.

[10:03] Laura Camien: I will say in a moment, I'll get to it.

[10:05] Susan Blackwell: But you could argue, oh, you do have a say in the algorithm because it's based on what you've done in the past, but you're only choosing options from what you're shown.

[10:13] Laura Camien: So it is a little bit limited.

[10:14] Susan Blackwell: But wouldn't it be cool if we could have a say in it so that we could make sure that we continue to live in a world where we see the full picture or at least a fuller picture than you get in a hall of mirrors?

[10:25] Laura Camien: So then you and I were having a conversation with a client recently that inspired me to get feisty and up on my soapbox, not with our client, of course, not during the session, because we were all in agreement, but it got me so sparked about something that I've been frustrated by so many times in my life.

[10:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[10:42] Laura Camien: Again, this is an enormous topic, so we won't get all into it today, but I'll just touch on it for a second if you'll indulge me.

[10:50] Susan Blackwell: It is my opinion in our culture that the burden of social responsibility has been passed down whenever possible to the individual.

[10:58] Laura Camien: And we're at a point, I think each individual, like we can't possibly make decisions based on an educated opinion for everything, because every like all the responsibility has been passed down to us.

[11:09] Susan Blackwell: What I mean is we know that smoking cigarettes is addictive and will kill you eventually.

[11:14] Laura Camien: Yet we don't keep companies from manufacturing it and selling it.

[11:18] Susan Blackwell: Instead, we say, hey, these are addictive by design, but it's up to you to not get addicted. Good luck.

[11:24] Laura Camien: We know that too much sugar in our bodies can contribute to various diseases.

[11:27] Susan Blackwell: Sugar, particularly in its processed form, is addictive.

[11:32] Laura Camien: Yet we do not keep manufacturers from adding sugar to literally everything they make.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: We say, hey, sugar's addictive by design, but it's up to you not to get addicted to it.

[11:42] Laura Camien: Similarly, fast food, gambling, overspending, shopping, drugs.

[11:48] Susan Blackwell: We allow certain highly addictive drugs to be prescribed.

[11:52] Laura Camien: So same.

[11:53] Susan Blackwell: Alcohol, same.

[11:54] Laura Camien: Social media, same.

[11:56] Susan Blackwell: Every one of these things I mentioned evolved over time to feed itself for someone to make money.

[12:01] Laura Camien: And in order to make lots of money, they need us to be addicted to it.

[12:06] Susan Blackwell: And once you get addicted to something, then it's on you to sort of figure out how to resolve that.

[12:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:11] Susan Blackwell: What do all these things have in common, Suze?

[12:13] Laura Camien: Every one of these behaviors or activities involve dopamine.

[12:17] Susan Blackwell: We're all looking for a dopamine hit, whether we know it or not.

[12:21] Laura Camien: An article by Bruce Goldman, published by Stanford Medicine, sums up how dopamine works in our brain.

[12:27] Susan Blackwell: Dopamine, the main chemical involved in addiction, is secreted from certain nerve tracts in the brain when we engage in a rewarding experience, such as finding food, clothing, shelter, or a sexual mate.

[12:39] Laura Camien: Nature designed our brains to feel pleasure when these experiences happen because they increase our odds of survival and of procreation.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: But the days when our species dwelled in caves and struggled for survival are long gone.

[12:52] Laura Camien: Dopamine Nation, a book, explains how living in a modern society, affluent beyond comparison by evolutionary standards, has rendered us all vulnerable to dopamine addiction.

[13:05] Susan Blackwell: Today, the additive substance of choice, whether we realize it or not, is often the internet and social media channels, according to the author Anna Lempke.

[13:14] Laura Camien: So Anna Lempke is the author of Dopamine Nation, Binding Balance in the Age of Indulgence.

[13:21] Susan Blackwell: So in this interview with Bruce Goldman, Anna explained why she wanted to write this book.

[13:26] Laura Camien: And this is interesting, and all has to do with my spark.

[13:29] Susan Blackwell: This is all preamble.

[13:32] Laura Camien: It's great, though.

[13:33] Susan Blackwell: I am with you.

[13:35] Laura Camien: Hook line sinker.

[13:38] Susan Blackwell: And this is what my algorithms are serving me, like on TikTok right now. It is all brain health. It is all brain chemistry. It is all neurological and some styling and home decor.

[13:53] Laura Camien: Yes.

[13:54] Susan Blackwell: And we're going to talk about how that can be good, but then there's also a downside that you may not see.

[14:00] Laura Camien: Of course there is, Laura.

[14:02] Susan Blackwell: Of course there is.

[14:04] Laura Camien: Okay, so Anna, the author, explained to Bruce Goldman, the article writer, why she wanted to write this book, Dopamine Nation. She said, I wanted to tell readers what I'd learned from patients and neuroscience about how to tackle compulsive overconsumption. Feel-good substances and behaviors increase dopamine release in the brain's reward pathways. Those are those little neurons we're talking about. The brain responds to this increase by decreasing dopamine transmission, not just back down to its natural baseline rate, but below that baseline. So repeated exposure to the same or similar stimuli ultimately creates a chronic dopamine deficit state. Where we're less able to experience pleasure. When asked what are the risk factors for addiction, Anna said this.

[15:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[15:02] Laura Camien: Uh uh. Just as the hypodermic needle is the delivery mechanism for drugs like heroin.

[15:09] Susan Blackwell: The smartphone, that's right, Suze. I see your pain.

[15:11] Laura Camien: The smartphone is the modern day hypodermic needle delivering digital dopamine for a wired generation.

[15:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. The hypodermic needle delivers a drug right into our vascular system, which in turn delivers it right to the brain, making the drug more potent. The same is true for the smartphone, with its bright colors, flashing lights, and engaging alerts. It delivers images to our visual cortex that are tough to resist. And the quantity is endless.

[15:42] Laura Camien: TikTok never runs out.

[15:42] Susan Blackwell: TikTok never runs out, Susan.

[15:48] Laura Camien: It never runs out.

[15:50] Susan Blackwell: So Anna goes on to say that social media is particularly addictive because we are wired to connect. It's kept us alive for millions of years in a world of scarcity and ever present danger. Moving in tribes safeguards us against predators and optimizes scarce resources and facilitates bonding. Our brains release dopamine when we make human connections, which incentivizes us to do it again. But social connection has become drugified by social media apps, making us vulnerable to compulsive overconsumption. These apps can cause the release of large amounts of dopamine into our brain's reward pathway all at once, just like heroin or meth or alcohol. They do that by amplifying the feel-good properties that attract humans to each other in the first place.

[16:40] Susan Blackwell: And then there's novelty.

[17:12] Laura Camien: All of that was on my mind when I said to Wes there should be a way to let the algorithm know that you want to see some things that are different or alternative or even opposites from time to time. Those little sparks laid the foundation for a few days later. I was poking around on Medium, as I do, and I came across the idea of rewilding your attention.

[17:37] Susan Blackwell: What?

[17:38] Laura Camien: And it was like my whole body responded to this idea with a resounding yes. So I stumbled across a writer named Clive Thompson. He also writes for the New York Times and Wired. I did not know he was on Medium. And he's written several books as well. I learned so much from his post. And I also want to credit everyone appropriately. So before I go too deep, let me explain. Clive was inspired to write about the idea of rewilding your attention because he read a blog by CJ Eller. CJ Eller got the term from a tweet posted by Tom Critchlow. Tom Critchlow was responding to an idea written about by Allie Montag, and Allie was referencing C.S. Lewis. Are you with me?

[18:23] Susan Blackwell: I am, and I'm also amazed because it's like the downside of social media, the upside, the connection that these people were sparking each other.

[18:33] Laura Camien: I don't think it was hard back published tomes, with the exception of the very, very, very, very latter.

[18:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And nothing about this, as you will see when I get all the way through, nothing about this is saying like the algorithms are completely wrong. It is this awareness that people need to understand what's going on in their brain and why it makes them feel the way they feel.

[18:57] Laura Camien: So you're on there and you're like, I love TikTok more than life, and you spend two hours and you're happy as can be.

[19:21] Susan Blackwell: And you sink deeper and deeper and deeper. That is the dopamine deficit.

[19:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[19:26] Susan Blackwell: And it might not show up just as compare and despair. It might just be sort of like I was on TikTok for a spell. And then I'm sort of like, I don't know why. I just don't feel that great tonight. So there's one version where you realize, like, okay, I'm not getting the dopamine hits that I was before.

[19:41] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[19:41] Susan Blackwell: But the way it works in your brain is that it takes you lower. It takes you lower than you were. You are in a deficit now. So that is part of what my spark is about is like understanding how it all works. It's not at all, this is not a spark about like stop doing social media, get offline.

[20:01] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[20:01] Susan Blackwell: Every time we have one of these conversations on mic or off mic, I'm like, when are we just throwing our smartphones in the toilet and just getting an old candy bar phone that is like all we can do is like send rudimentary texts on it.

[20:16] Laura Camien: There are people who are doing it. That's a whole movement, and we probably should follow up on that.

[20:20] Susan Blackwell: We should make a note to follow up on, you know, in the future.

[20:22] Laura Camien: Nathan and I have talked about it.

[20:24] Susan Blackwell: We have talked about it.

[20:25] Laura Camien: And then I'm just like, but the sweet, sweet candy.

[20:28] Susan Blackwell: So there you go. The sweet, sweet candy, as long as you understand that the potentially sunken down feeling, the drop that you feel that is not your fault. That is not the truth. That is simply a dopamine deficit that has been created in your brain.

[20:46] Laura Camien: It's sort of like you stimulated a bunch of chemicals and then the chemicals subsided, and then some.

[20:51] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[20:52] Laura Camien: Yeah. Like all these other addictions that I mentioned before, understanding them could help us to not get addicted to them or understand, like, well, okay, what are the ramifications of it? It's this.

[21:05] Susan Blackwell: But you set it up so beautifully when you use a corollary like cigarettes or something like that, where it's like, it's available to you. You can get it over the counter. It might even be in your hand right now, and it is your decision about what you're going to do with that.

[21:20] Laura Camien: And some people can smoke and not be addicted to it.

[21:24] Susan Blackwell: Some people can't smoke recreationally. I don't know a lot about that, but I know you can. Some people can have sugar once or twice and walk away from it and not have another impulse to have it.

[21:34] Laura Camien: Right.

[21:35] Susan Blackwell: But if that's not you, it helps to understand what is going on in your brain. So, yes to what you said. These ideas are being passed along online, sometimes through social media, sometimes through more obscure blogs, but the idea is being passed along 100% in the digital form.

[21:53] Laura Camien: So there's nothing wrong with that.

[21:55] Susan Blackwell: But I'm going to get into how we might be able to do it a little bit differently. So Allie Montag wrote a fantastic blog about what we're striving for when we write or when we create anything of any kind. And she was pointing to the current status quo, where most of us buy into this idea that likes and followers and exposure equals success. That hasn't always been the case, but this is where we are in our cultural moment.

[22:26] Laura Camien: Here's a bit from that blog post.

[22:28] Susan Blackwell: In 1944, C.S. Lewis gave a lecture to the students of King's College at the University of London. He asked the students to consider what he called the inner ring. He described it like this: In any group, there's an ever-shifting circle of insiders. Who's on top? Who's well liked? Who has the smartest idea? Who holds sway? Inevitably, he said, we compare ourselves, the outsiders, to the members of the inner ring, the insiders. We want to be inside the ring. Anyone who has ever eaten in a high school cafeteria knows the feeling. Everything would be so much better if I was just sitting over there. An inner ring exists in every office, university, church, and bingo hall. Part of Lewis's definition of the inner ring was its subtlety. It's never explicitly clear who's inside. This keeps everyone on their toes. The rules are always changing. The top dog yesterday might be an outcast tomorrow.

[23:28] Laura Camien: Both Allie and Tom Critchlow likened this phenomenon to the algorithms that feed us what is quote unquote good. It's based on what everyone else was looking at today or talking about today. It is literally the median, the average. We're conflating popular with good.

[23:46] Susan Blackwell: So that inner circle of like people with a million followers or more, what are they talking about? That must be what we should all be talking about.

[23:54] Laura Camien: And I love the idea of the inner circle. I used to say in one of my old jobs, I used to say, I'm in the outer ring of the inner circle.

[24:00] Susan Blackwell: I always was.

[24:03] Laura Camien: I'm so close and yet so far.

[24:05] Susan Blackwell: The outer ring of the inner circle.

[24:07] Laura Camien: But as Clive eventually wrote in his blog, the algorithms in big tech feeds have two problems. They focus heavily on the hot, viral here and now, what highly popular folks are talking about and arguing about this very instant. And they focus on material that's customized for you, except that it's a dull demographics 101 cartoon of who you are and what you're interested in.

[24:33] Susan Blackwell: Either way, spending too much time in the big algorithmic feeds winds up being a form of intellectual monocropping.

[24:42] Laura Camien: That's what's happened to me.

[24:43] Susan Blackwell: Intellectual monocropping.

[24:46] Laura Camien: Intellectual monocropping, Susan.

[24:49] Susan Blackwell: I've been wanting to talk to you about it.

[24:51] Laura Camien: Your TikTok is contributing to intellectual monocropping.

[24:55] Susan Blackwell: We laugh because it's true.

[24:57] Laura Camien: But here's his point it's not terribly diverse or surprising. It's not that the stuff in your feed is all bad. Some of it is great, but it has a deadening sameness to it. This leads to things with a lot of likes getting shared by the algorithm and they get more likes. Things with few likes to start with don't get shared and get no further likes. These are like potentially great ideas dying on the vine.

[25:24] Susan Blackwell: So Tom tweeted out his thoughts about Allie's post on the inner circle. He said, if all you read and follow are mainstream and inner circle folks, then you're only going to see the status and celebrity game. You'll desire audience and reach and think that writing in fast company is success. When the reality is that you can rewild your attention and follow blogs and people writing small weird things.

[25:56] Laura Camien: You can find your group and you can forge real connections.

[26:00] Susan Blackwell: Then CJ Eller blogged about that phrase that Tom coined rewild your attention and said, Tom's message makes me realize that rewilding attention is an active practice. One must not only pursue those tiny signals, but share them as well. Whether that means writing about them on your blog or by word of mouth. The only way the tiny signal can keep on resonating throughout the web is if we pass it on. Enter Clive Thompson, who passed it on in his blog.

[26:27] Laura Camien: And now here I am on the Sparks File, passing it on to all of you.

[26:34] Susan Blackwell: You're doing it right now.

[26:35] Laura Camien: I'm doing it right now.

[26:36] Susan Blackwell: So Clive wrote instead of crowding your attention with what's already going viral on the inner tubes, focus on the weird stuff. Hunt down the idiosyncratic posts and videos that people are publishing, oftentimes to tiny and niche audiences. It's decidedly unviral culture, but it is more likely to plant in your mind the seed of a rare new idea.

[27:01] Laura Camien: Cams, I appreciate that sentiment very much. And if I'm jumping your spark, just put me back in my place.

[27:08] Susan Blackwell: Say sit down.

[27:09] Laura Camien: You're rocking the boat.

[27:11] Susan Blackwell: The people all said sit down.

[27:13] Laura Camien: You're jumping my spark.

[27:15] Laura Camien: Um, it's not an either or game, but another alternative is look away from all of it. Go read an old book, go for a walk. You don't have to turn your attention to like, you know, reading Charles Blow in the New York Times.

[27:30] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[27:30] Laura Camien: Or little weird things on some blogger's website. You could also turn all of it off.

[27:37] Susan Blackwell: For sure.

[27:38] Laura Camien: That is absolutely an option. Um, but I think that practically speaking, we do read the news and we do consume ideas. His thought is to if you actually want some new and interesting ideas, we're gonna have to work for it. Look outside of the inner circle.

[27:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it actually goes back to the original thought that I had before I realized what the thought was. But what if we could tell the algorithm we actually want to see more obscure things, niche ideas, ideas that haven't gone viral yet?

[28:08] Laura Camien: Then my second idea, it really is on us to do the work.

[28:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:11] Laura Camien: If we want to reprogram our devices and our brains, we have to decide we want to do things differently so that we can stimulate our brains with ideas that are off the beaten path. Of course, there's times when knowing what all the high profile people with a lot of followers are working on or talking about is super useful.

[28:28] Susan Blackwell: Like without a doubt, we may want to like keep a foot or keep a toe dipped into that.

[28:34] Laura Camien: But there's times when it's not. The thing is the algorithm gets some things right about us. It's not wrong necessarily, it's just incomplete. So for example, like my socials by now obviously know that I love theater, I love creativity.

[28:49] Susan Blackwell: This is a no brainer.

[28:51] Laura Camien: But it is probably less likely to know that I love science and the places where art and science connect. It probably knows that I laugh at funny animal videos, but it is less likely to know that I'm fascinated by what one of our clients calls the question of identity, meaning what makes us a person? What makes us all human?

[29:14] Susan Blackwell: Clive Thompson said, I always get a slightly flattened feeling when I behold my feed robotically unloading boxes of content from the same monotonous conveyor belt of recommendations, catered to some imaginary marketing version of my identity.

[29:30] Laura Camien: It's like checking my reflection in the mirror and seeing a stock photo image.

[29:36] Susan Blackwell: I thought that was Gene.

[29:37] Laura Camien: Yes.

[29:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's good writing. So I wonder what it would hurt for them to like let us have a say in what content is delivered to us.

[29:45] Laura Camien: I mean, again, this is going back to we do have a say, it's based on what we've chosen in the past. Sorry to interrupt, can that be informed at all by what you search for?

[29:54] Susan Blackwell: Like from time to time, I don't just like scroll, scroll, scroll. I also am like, show me things about this. Show me things about that.

[30:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, that could be helpful. And it could go in, I have a list of ideas of things that you can do to rewild your attention. But again, the whole point is it's on you to break this addiction to these things that you're being delivered.

[30:17] Susan Blackwell: And like I said, I'm sure they would be like, you do have a say in the algorithm. It's based on what you've chosen in the past.

[30:24] Laura Camien: So if you don't want more of these, don't like them or don't repost them. But we're just selecting from what we've been shown. So we're all regurgitating the same articles, the same ideas, rather than discovering a new idea or having our new idea validated.

[30:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:42] Laura Camien: So this idea of like rewilding our attention is really speaking to me. Again, according to Clive Thompson, the metaphor suggests precisely what to do. If you want to have wilder, curious thoughts, you have to avoid the industrial monocropping of big tech feeds.

[31:00] Susan Blackwell: You want an intellectual forest overgrown with mushrooms and towering weeds and a massive dead log where a family of raccoons has taken up residence.

[31:11] Laura Camien: Thought raccoons.

[31:12] Susan Blackwell: Thought raccoons. And as CJ Eller said, it is an active practice. It's on us to pay attention and seek out alternatives.

[31:20] Laura Camien: Which leads to what do we make of this? Well, Suze, you've mentioned a few things so far. But I'm happy to report while there's no setting that I know of yet that can help you request more unique material, there are many things that you can do.

[31:33] Clive Thompson recommended a few of these things. Number one, look for and subscribe to more eclectic blogs and small publications and follow people who don't have a big following but whose ideas intrigue you.

[31:47] You can also use RSS feeders like Feedly to look for and sort topics and information that you want to see. This is basically like actively training the AI bot to put things that it thinks you'll like, you know, set them aside for you.

[32:03] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[32:04] Laura Camien: But of course, as mentioned, it does have its limitations. I've also mentioned that he will spend time online, quote unquote prospecting, which I really think is similar to searching for sparks of inspiration.

[32:16] Susan Blackwell: He's spark hunting or spark generating.

[32:18] Laura Camien: But he says he'll pick a subject, like you mentioned, Suze, just pick a subject and then go digging. Go digging to see if there's a hobbyist or an interest group discussion board devoted to it.

[32:30] Susan Blackwell: And if there is, he'll absorb it completely, like really trying to understand what this group of people are passionate about.

[32:37] Laura Camien: Another idea, one you mentioned slightly, and that is old school books. Go to a bookstore or a library and poke about, pick up things that catch your attention, go to the nonfiction section and just look for books and topics that you're like, huh, I never thought about that before.

[32:56] Susan Blackwell: Of course, if it's a store, certain merchandising techniques are at play, but there is a much greater likelihood you might discover something new and unique.

[33:04] Laura Camien: Nice. Clive points out that that can work online as well. There are fantastic sites such as the Internet Archive, Project Gutenberg, or even Google Books, where pre-1995 freely accessible public domain ebooks and publications are available.

[33:24] Susan Blackwell: So you can go look at all that.

[33:27] Laura Camien: Neat. And one more fun one, Clive wrote a follow-up post about a search engine he found called marginalia.

[33:36] Susan Blackwell: I think that's how it's said.

[33:37] Laura Camien: Marginalia, that's it. I thought the idea was delightful. It is a search engine designed to surprise you.

[33:44] Clive called it serendipity engineering. So instead of serving you up the primary sites that Google and Safari and DuckDuckGo would serve up, it actually tries to surprise you with some harder to find, more obscure content.

[33:59] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[34:00] Laura Camien: It's really cool. It upranks websites that are text heavy.

[34:05] Susan Blackwell: So oftentimes they're older.

[34:07] Laura Camien: They downrank ones that are highly visual and SEO optimized. Because those are the ones you're gonna get in a Google search.

[34:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[34:15] Laura Camien: So I thought it was such a great idea. If you're someone who's doing your research for your project, it's an absolute must because you're gonna discover and find things you wouldn't otherwise.

[34:25] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[34:26] Laura Camien: So yeah, to me, the main takeaway is just having this awareness. You can curate your social feeds to be exactly what you want in order to feel great.

[34:37] Susan Blackwell: But just know that when the dip comes afterwards, just know that that's not really you.

[34:45] Laura Camien: That's not the truth. That is simply a dopamine deficit.

[34:49] Susan Blackwell: And if you can acknowledge it as such, then fine, please proceed. But so many of us then get caught, you know, when we're in that down moment and start to feel like some of that downness is significant in some way.

[35:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[35:02] Susan Blackwell: It's just a dopamine deficit.

[35:04] Laura Camien: So to close us out, I would like to take us back. Unless you have some more, Suze, do you have more?

[35:09] Susan Blackwell: What do we do with it?

[35:10] Laura Camien: I have so I have just I thoughts I've been writing down throughout.

[35:14] Susan Blackwell: Well, share.

[35:15] Laura Camien: I want to hear. Well, I was just thinking, this refers back to something you said earlier. I just didn't want to interrupt you. We were in the select group session today, and one of our clients, whom we adore, is in this journey as a as an expression of their creativity of creating more online content.

[35:36] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[35:37] Laura Camien: Consuming less, but creating more. And we asked during their creativity share where they were presenting sort of the state of creative affairs of this project. They were saying they had this vampire that this might be a thing that they weren't successful at.

[35:52] Susan Blackwell: We asked this clarifying question about, well, fill in the blanks. Success would look like blank, failure would look like blank.

[35:59] Laura Camien: Because we were sort of like, what are the metrics we're using that you're holding in your head? And they were saying, and I loved this, success would be creating content with a feeling of joy and creativity.

[36:12] Susan Blackwell: Not meaning that the content possessed it, but that as they were creating it, creating the content, their body was filled with joy and creativity.

[36:20] Laura Camien: That was success, not how many thumbs up or little hearts or how many comments they got or how many times it was viewed.

[36:27] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[36:28] Laura Camien: And they contextualized failure as being giving up.

[36:32] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[36:33] Laura Camien: Again, not that I nobody acknowledged that this post existed in the world. And we were like, oh, well, those metrics are very refreshing.

[36:42] Susan Blackwell: I mean, you can't lose.

[36:43] Laura Camien: You really can't lose if that's your guide.

[36:46] Susan Blackwell: As long as you're creating from a place of creativity and joy, yeah, is such a great, that's what success would look like for me in terms of my content creation.

[36:54] Laura Camien: I just thought it was brilliant.

[36:56] Susan Blackwell: That's the objective.

[36:57] Laura Camien: Yes to that. I thought that was so if you were the person that said that and you're listening, and we know you are.

[36:58] Susan Blackwell: And we know you are.

[37:05] Laura Camien: And we love that the way that they contextualize that. But absolutely. Um so that was one thing that I was thinking about.

[37:11] Laura Camien: And then I was just this week rereading the synopsis of Long Day's Journey into Night.

[37:19] Susan Blackwell: Fascinating.

[37:20] Laura Camien: I was because there's a new virtual production coming out, which I think is a brilliant conceit, which is it is set during COVID lockdown.

[37:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[37:30] Laura Camien: With this family, and she's there's addictions at play. There's we think one of them might have what's that cough? Like, like it's kind of genius.

[37:41] Susan Blackwell: Fascinating.

[37:42] Laura Camien: I was trying to, in my mind, graft my knowledge of Long Day's Journey and Tonight as it exists with a COVID context sort of um production overlay to it.

[37:53] Susan Blackwell: So I was like, let me just go back and revisit Long Day's Journey and Tonight. And if you know that piece of writing, and if you've ever spent any time up uh at the Eugenonial Theater Center, and if you've ever taken a spin past the Monte Cristo cottage, where that bookslash play is set, I was staying right next door to it recently.

[38:13] Laura Camien: It's just a house on a street, and I was just like, isn't it fascinating that this really seminal piece of writing is set in this house?

[38:20] Susan Blackwell: And it is, it's dark, it's low ceilings, it's you can really get a you can just practically smell the morphine addiction wafting out.

[38:29] Laura Camien: But I was reminded when I reread the synopsis that Mary Tyrone, the matriarch of this family, who is trying, trying, trying to kick her morphine addiction.

[38:42] Susan Blackwell: There's times when she's like, I'm just gonna go upstairs and lay down.

[38:45] Laura Camien: And everybody in the family is like, You're fucking using again, mom.

[38:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:49] Laura Camien: And I will tell you, last night I was just like, I'm just gonna go to bed early. And I went up and I turned on the electric blanket, and it's so cold here.

[38:58] Susan Blackwell: And I got under the covers and I just ticked and talked.

[39:02] Laura Camien: And I was like, it is like fucking Mary Tyrone going upstairs to just get a hit.

[39:08] Susan Blackwell: It is Susan, and TikTok never runs out.

[39:13] Laura Camien: And that morphine prescription never runs dry.

[39:13] Susan Blackwell: Runs dry.

[39:19] Laura Camien: It will always be there. Laura, after working for like 12 hours, like it was another long workday. Thank God we're doing work that we love, but it was like a long workday.

[39:30] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, I'm just gonna go upstairs and watch TikTok until I drift off to sleep.

[39:37] Laura Camien: And so I mean, maybe that is, I don't know, only you can say, but maybe that's a great thing for you. You don't feel the dopamine deficit because it's happening in your sleep.

[39:46] Susan Blackwell: I I didn't really never pay attention to TikTok until the last few months.

[39:49] Laura Camien: And you've heard me on this fucking podcast use the word TikTok more than I ever have in my entire life.

[39:56] Susan Blackwell: I mean, if I had a nickel, yeah.

[39:58] Laura Camien: If I then you would have you would have a small handful of nickels.

[40:03] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure I'd have $10.

[40:05] Laura Camien: But listen though, this is the thing. This spark, I think, is meant to more so question what is our success in terms of creating and idea generating and also diversifying spark sources, like diversifying where we get our information from.

[40:22] Susan Blackwell: Our thoughts.

[40:23] Laura Camien: Yes. And I want to add to this back to our beloved client who is really working through, like we're in a pandemic. I'm a live performer. I'm going to invest some creative energy in creating content.

[40:38] Susan Blackwell: When they were sharing today, they had a very well thought out portion of their presentation, which was around their boundaries.

[40:47] Laura Camien: That they were setting these really clear boundaries about when they weren't taking in digital information, when they were completely going for walks without headphones, without phones.

[41:01] Susan Blackwell: When you talk about rewilding your attention, I was like, this is them planting a flag in the sand and saying, I am going to make this stuff with joy and creativity in my heart, but I'm going to turn down what I'm consuming digitally.

[41:16] Laura Camien: And also opening my eyes up and my experience sensors up for all sorts of things that are not related to digital consumption.

[41:25] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes, to all of that. And I would add like the knowledge that even when you are digitally consuming, you are only seeing a small portion of what's going on in the world.

[41:39] Laura Camien: It is deceptive, and you might think like, oh, look at all of these things that are going on. This is the brunt of it, what people are talking about out there.

[41:48] Susan Blackwell: And it is just a sliver that has been selected by a very specific criteria. And so I think that it calls into question this barometer for success, why we're creating.

[42:01] Laura Camien: And while there is a lot to celebrate in terms of like, oh, the gatekeepers are gone, in a way that is true, that doesn't mean we should all shift to like, okay, so success then is the number of likes, the number of shares, the number of followers.

[42:19] Susan Blackwell: That is not an equivalent to good art or art that is thought-provoking and makes people see the world in a different way. These are not the same things.

[42:30] Laura Camien: You know, in the select group, we've had workshops on TikTok and how it may or may not serve your creativity. And I think for those that it serves their creativity, it inspires them and it is an impetus to create work. I am all for it.

[42:45] Susan Blackwell: I am equally for those people that are like, I am working on an art form that is not a 15-second or a 30-second or 60-second thing. I am working on an art form that is going to take me longer and will be a more substantive experience for the end user when it finally gets there.

[43:18] Laura Camien: Because that work has the ability, maybe it isn't going to go viral on one of the social channels, but it may impact in a very meaningful way any person who picks up that book or watches that film, etc.

[43:35] Susan Blackwell: Nice. So I just feel like let us not lose sight of that. In all of the shiny bells and whistles of these social, they can be great. And we do have some clients who I'm like super excited for because it is the perfect answer to how do I create work and feel like I'm performing during this crazy time.

[43:58] Laura Camien: Share my light.

[43:58] Susan Blackwell: Yep. Again, it is about educating ourselves, and it's only up to us to do it. So, like all the addictions mentioned, it doesn't benefit anyone else for you to figure it out, but it benefits you to figure it out.

[44:13] Laura Camien: Like it or not, the responsibility has been handed to us on an individual level. So it is up to me. If I want to have a broader view of the world, I've got to do things different online so that I can expand my own brain.

[44:31] Susan Blackwell: I love it. So let me close us out with a little bit more from the blog that Ali Montaug wrote. The blog that started it all.

[44:40] Laura Camien: Nice.

[44:41] Susan Blackwell: She says, if you want to be in the inner ring, you've already lost. The incentives driving creative work matter. It's just as important why you create something as it is what you create.

[44:55] Laura Camien: A story written only for profit, attention, or fame likely won't be much of a story at all. The aim of art is to ask the big questions, writes the author George Saunders. How are we supposed to be living down here? What are we put here to accomplish? What should we value? What is truth anyway? And how might we recognize it?

[45:16] Susan Blackwell: So, what do we do? C.S. Lewis, as always, knew the answer to the question before he asked it. The quest of the inner ring will break your hearts unless you break it, he explained. But if you break it, a surprising result will follow.

[45:32] Laura Camien: If in your working hours you make the work your end, you will presently find yourself all unawares inside the only circle in your profession that really matters. You will be one of the sound craftsmen, and other sound craftsmen will know it.

[45:49] Susan Blackwell: Personally, I think if we can step away from the dopamine feed of social media, which I know is easier said than done, and see that creating for the sake of getting likes or going viral is not the same, nor does it have the potential lasting impact of creating work of quality.

[46:07] Laura Camien: Sometimes it can be, but not always. Work that is driven by our authentic interests and joy. It's up to us. There'll be many addictive substances, behaviors, and opportunities that call to us.

[46:22] Susan Blackwell: But we have within us the power to set up our lives differently and give our brains a more robust and substantive diet to feed off of.

[46:45] Laura Camien: Oh, Camion. Cammy. I mean, I don't know. You may or may not want to rewild your attention. You don't have to, but you might want to.

[46:54] Susan Blackwell: I do, no, I do. I do. And there's something in here that I've been thinking about a lot. I may have even said it on this podcast. But I'm super excited we're going to have a room with no TV in it that I think will be ideal for reading.

[47:13] Laura Camien: Not if you bring your phone in there, but not if you bring your phone in there.

[47:17] Susan Blackwell: I both am sort of like, oh no. And I'm like, oh yes. Do you know what I mean?

[47:23] Laura Camien: Yes.

[47:23] Susan Blackwell: And it's not an either or. The thing is, even Clive Thompson said it. There are times when that is perfectly what we need. We want to know what's going on in the world.

[47:31] Laura Camien: He just wants to marry Tyrona under the electric blanket with TikTok.

[47:35] Susan Blackwell: Is that what he said?

[47:37] Laura Camien: No, I don't think he said that.

[47:38] Susan Blackwell: That's funny. I didn't hear that at all.

[47:41] Laura Camien: No TikTok.

[47:43] Susan Blackwell: Didn't hear it.

[47:44] Laura Camien: No.

[47:44] Susan Blackwell: Um funny. No, I think you're hearing another voice, perhaps your own. But um, I think that it again, it's an awareness and a self-education of knowing what is it I'm looking for right now, and then do the appropriate thing.

[48:00] Laura Camien: Yeah, I want to tap into what's going on in the world. I'm gonna do this. Oh, right now I'm looking to stimulate my brain with novel ideas, interesting ideas, something surprising and delightful that I might not have encountered otherwise.

[48:15] Susan Blackwell: You know, one of the reasons why I'm so into this idea and so motivated by it is because I do not relish the idea of just like blindly, dumbly being led by the snout through like consume this, now consume this, buy this, wear this. And I'm just like, I don't want that for myself.

[48:37] Laura Camien: I want to be have a bit more independent thinking and have and know my own part and my own thoughts. And if all of this stuff is constantly, I'm mainlining it, and I'm the one holding the you know, syringe. I don't want to be led in that way.

[48:55] Susan Blackwell: I just think of wanting to be more intentional with my time, be more aware of what's happening inside of me. So it's not a mystery.

[49:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:06] Susan Blackwell: Why I feel down right now is not a mystery. And that could be anything of like you consume a bunch of sugar and get a high or cigarettes or you go gambling and you win 20 bucks or whatever those dopamine hits followed by the dopamine crash that's all I just want to be conscious of like maybe I'll still have that dessert but I will know if 30 minutes later I'm feeling not great I'll know why.

[49:32] Laura Camien: You know what images keep popping into my head did you ever see the movie minority report Tom Cruise you know I've seen that many times.

[49:41] Susan Blackwell: So many times those um are they the empaths the agathas whatever they're called that are floating in the water and they're hooked up to all of these like sensors and electrodes and they are the ones that are sending the imagery into this system.

[49:56] Laura Camien: If you haven't seen the movie just please follow along tight yeah hang tight but then by the end of the movie these people have been liberated from those tanks it's sort of like the Matrix too where you're just sort of like you are the energy cell for some sort of menacing nefarious system.

[50:16] Susan Blackwell: But by the end they're sitting in a beautiful remote cabin there's a fire in the fireplace and they're like reading books and there's probably some delicious soup on the stove and they're actually living actually they're actually living and to me there's something about like though I am so seduced by the consumption of it all to actually experience this life and the ebbs and the flows of not having to feel like I have to sort of like medicate in different ways, whether that's through social media, shopping, whatever it is, like medicate or numb out, like just to like rise and fall with the tide of life and live, but for reels, live.

[51:02] Laura Camien: I love that.

[51:03] Susan Blackwell: I kept getting the image of Wally.

[51:05] Laura Camien: Do you remember that movie?

[51:06] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[51:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:08] Susan Blackwell: People are there consuming food and sugar and video and those are like dopamine chairs.

[51:15] Laura Camien: They're just sitting in dopamine chairs.

[51:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And I always think like, oh no, I don't want that. I appreciate certain things. I probably read more publications on my phone than I did before I had access to them on my phone.

[51:31] Laura Camien: But I don't want to imagine myself living through this tiny screen.

[51:36] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I love the that phrase, rewilding your attention.

[51:36] Laura Camien: Rewilding your attention.

[51:41] Susan Blackwell: And that is like that speaks to our client who, although creating incredible content for the social medias, also going on walks without any of it.

[51:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:53] Susan Blackwell: Rewilding their attention and seeing and feeling things out in the wild. And they specified it's okay to take a pencil and paper.

[52:02] Laura Camien: That's the thing that because they need to catch those sparks.

[52:05] Susan Blackwell: Catch those ideas.

[52:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:06] Susan Blackwell: Which you are more readily available for if you know you're not mainlining the consumption.

[52:13] Laura Camien: So Laura, well done.

[52:15] Susan Blackwell: Well done. Thank you.

[52:17] Laura Camien: I guess that's it.

[52:19] Susan Blackwell: I guess that's it. Thank you, Laura Cammy.

[52:21] Laura Camien: You're welcome. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope that it put another bunch of sparks in your analog file.

[52:32] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, you can email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, the sparkfile.com.

[52:46] Laura Camien: We will even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[52:55] Susan Blackwell: Follow us on social media, dun dun da at the sparkfile. And be sure to subscribe, rate, and maybe even five star review this podcast.

[53:05] Laura Camien: It really helps other listeners to find us through the what?

[53:08] Susan Blackwell: Through the algorithm.

[53:10] Laura Camien: If you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, what this is what we want you to do.

[53:15] Susan Blackwell: We want you to just go outside, just go like face the sky and just like just space the sky and just be like, I didn't like it.

[53:25] Laura Camien: Just like scream it.

[53:27] Susan Blackwell: Scream it into nature if you didn't like it.

[53:29] Laura Camien: Scream it into nature.

[53:31] Susan Blackwell: Great. Just go put your face in a bush and just scream it into a shrub.

[53:35] Laura Camien: Rewild it.

[53:36] Susan Blackwell: On the other hand, if something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[53:47] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[53:52] Susan Blackwell: You know, you gotta take it and make it make it.

[53:56] Laura Camien: Bye, friends.

[53:59] Susan Blackwell: We're not bumping into something that inspires me.

[54:07] Laura Camien: Spark could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[54:13] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[54:13] Laura Camien: Spark files.

[54:18] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files.

[54:21] Laura Camien: Sparkfiles.

[54:23] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark files.