This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:36] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to The Spark File, your one stop shop for creative inspiration.

[0:42] Laura Camien: Sure.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:45] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell. If you're joining us for the first time, you are so welcome. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are good questions, and we've got answers.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations. So here's the deal. Just between just between us chickens. Gather up here. Get close. We are makers who make all kinds of things. And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or even if you just want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:21] Susan Blackwell: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast. Or a 500, 1,000 or 2,000 piece piece of art. Or a meditation on dying that provides so much inspiration for living.

[1:47] Laura Camien: Ooh.

[1:50] Susan Blackwell: We've got a combo for you today. Every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too. And if you're not careful, you might just get your life affirmed. So without further ado, let's open up the Sparks File.

[2:10] Laura Camien: One of the hottest introductions in show business.

[2:13] Susan Blackwell: That was the best. Um hi Cam.

[2:15] Laura Camien: Hi, Blackwell.

[2:16] Susan Blackwell: So happy to see you.

[2:17] Laura Camien: So excited to see you too. Um, any business? Like on mic because we save so much up.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, finally we can talk. This spark that I'm sharing with you today. I have been waiting to there are so many sparks within the spark.

[2:34] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: That I have been waiting patiently to share with you because I have ideas, real big ideas to share.

[2:43] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm so excited.

[2:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:46] Laura Camien: Oh my god. Um, before we start rocking our sparks, I just wanted to acknowledge and shout out the many fine listeners who have been writing in.

[2:56] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, sending us across all sorts of through our website, thesparkfile.com, through uh email, thesparkfile at gmail.com, through social media at the sparkfile across all those platforms. The we have been getting sparks. We have been getting questions, we have been getting uh it's so much great. It's so fun, and I think we're both excited to share that we're gonna do at least an episode or many episodes where we do listener sparks.

[3:28] Laura Camien: Somebody sent me a spark. I will be honest with you. Somebody sent sent me a spark through our the spark file Instagram account.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it was such a good spark. I knew that you hadn't read it yet because it was on red. Thank you, Bastard.

[3:42] Laura Camien: So you wouldn't see it. It's so good. And so I'd like to thank the sender that you'll be fully recognized during a full episode.

[3:52] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[3:52] Laura Camien: Yeah. Also, Brady Peters at our Nashville workshop at the story gathering.

[3:59] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[3:59] Laura Camien: Brady Peters is a human walking talking spark. And then he sent us the most beautiful email, including a link to his new newsletter that he has launched. It's called the A to Z.

[4:14] Laura Camien: And it is essentially a monthly newsletter that is a Sparks file organized from A to Z. This is crazy. There's like 26 sparks.

[4:24] Susan Blackwell: 26 Sparks.

[4:25] Laura Camien: And he did something recently that I thought was so smart because X is so hard. X is a question mark. A is Amelia Earhart. Did they know that? Do you know that they think they found Amelia Earhart?

[4:34] Susan Blackwell: It's so good. It's such a great diverse spark file. But um X has become is a wild card for him. So he's like, I get to choose what X is because X is so fucking hard.

[4:44] Susan Blackwell: I love it. And also because it's your Sparks file. You get to do it to do whatever you want, Brady Peters. Give yourself a gift. Um if people want to subscribe, I think you should. I love it. It's just like so clean. It's not a lot of like, it's just so clean and beautifully put together. It's the website is the A to Z.

[5:05] Laura Camien: T-H-E-A-T-O-Z dot substack dot com.

[5:10] Susan Blackwell: So go on, sign up. You will not regret it. I enjoy it so much. Thank you so much. And I would not be surprised if one of the sparks within the A to Z newsletter made it onto the Sparks file too.

[5:23] Laura Camien: So good.

[5:24] Susan Blackwell: So so good. I'm excited to do those episodes. Um and to dig into like choosing some listener sparks. I think it's gonna be super, super fun to go down some rabbit holes that we like literally weren't even on our radar.

[5:37] Laura Camien: Love it.

[5:38] Susan Blackwell: I'm so excited because we can't know all the sparks.

[5:40] Laura Camien: We can't.

[5:40] Susan Blackwell: No one can.

[5:41] Laura Camien: No single human can.

[5:44] Susan Blackwell: We're trying our best, but no one can. Um the other thing I want to say is the word douche nozzle.

[5:51] Laura Camien: That goes out to listener Jeff Spitz. Jeff Spitz is loving and binging the podcast, but he really wanted me to say the word douche nozzle. And so Spitzy, that one goes out to you. So that's how it works.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: A word to be said. I don't do we really want to set that convention emotion.

[6:07] Laura Camien: Well, well.

[6:09] Susan Blackwell: It's more like a dare. It's like it's like I dare you to say this on mic.

[6:14] Laura Camien: And oh, you just dared the wrong person because you know Blackwell will say that. But if somebody's like, can you wish my friend Lauren a happy birthday? I'm gonna be like, go fuck yourself, Lauren. But words like douche nozzle, sure. I'll make time for that. I'll waste our time.

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Susan. That's all the business I have for today. Do you have any other business?

[6:34] Laura Camien: That was important stuff.

[6:35] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I can top that.

[6:36] Laura Camien: It's important work. Um, I'm writing some sparks.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: Freaking spark it up.

[6:40] Laura Camien: Okay, I will say that my spark is a little.

[6:46] Susan Blackwell: Do you want to go first or should I go first?

[6:47] Laura Camien: That's a question on the table.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: Well, I wanted to hear the end of that sentence.

[6:50] Laura Camien: It's a little it's a little longer. It's a little more involved.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: Okay. I think I should go first.

[6:57] Laura Camien: Okay.

[6:58] Susan Blackwell: Mine is not so um long or involved.

[7:02] Laura Camien: Great.

[7:03] Susan Blackwell: Um, but mine is fun and light and we could. I don't know. I don't know how late it is. I shouldn't make promises. So um I have titled my spark this week. Um, my spark is called a piece, P-E-A-C of the puzzle.

[7:19] Laura Camien: A piece of the puzzle.

[7:21] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. Or maybe puzzle piece. I think it might I'm changing. It's gonna be puzzle piece P-E-A-C-E.

[7:30] Laura Camien: This is a fantastic use of everyone's time.

[7:34] Susan Blackwell: Well, I could have also named it a spark of a million metaphors, but we'll get there. All right. Um excited. I'm gonna start with a quote though from a Buzzfeed article.

[7:45] Laura Camien: That's right, BuzzFeed. Buzzfeed does some good work.

[7:47] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Don't sleep on BuzzFeed. Um this was by Rachel Wilkerson Miller, and the quote is when it feels like the world is falling apart, literally putting something back together can feel powerful.

[8:00] Laura Camien: This is a puzzle spark.

[8:02] Susan Blackwell: This is a big I know that your household will enjoy a puzzle. Well, Susan, since you follow my beloved Wes on social media.

[8:13] Laura Camien: The West Day show.

[8:14] Susan Blackwell: The West Day show, you already know that he's gotten a little bit into puzzling lately.

[8:19] Laura Camien: He really will.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: He will puzzle. He's like a full-on grandma at this point. So he has he has puzzle accessories that he's purchased just for puzzling. And do you know that friends have gotten in touch? Like he has reconnected with people from his past because they're like, where did you get those?

[8:40] Laura Camien: And he's like he has puzzle trays.

[8:42] Susan Blackwell: His puzzle trays. He has so when he's divide my observation is it looks like when he is in the liminal space of working on a puzzle. That's right. He I learned that at story. When he is uh he has puzzle trays that are shaped like puzzles pieces, puzzle pieces, and he can be like, Oh, here's this the snowy part of the thing. Here's the over here. This is clearly the part that is the rhinoceros in the lower right hand corner.

[9:07] Laura Camien: Yeah, and then you can stack them.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: They stack so if you want to put them away, it's a good one. Get that puzzle off the dining room table.

[9:13] Laura Camien: That's right. What's his mother's dinner?

[9:16] Susan Blackwell: Um yeah, he can like easily stack them up and move them.

[9:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:21] Susan Blackwell: But the interesting thing is like he started to get into this puzzling phase of his life when he was going through a bit of a tough time. Like our little kitty died, and we had had kitty for 20 years. He had had kitty for 20 years, like kitty predated me in the life of Wes. And he was really feeling and still is feeling that loss.

[9:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Kitty was like a shadow.

[9:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh, and then he was like the best, the best uh cat in the world. And uh anyway, so he really needed something to quiet his mind and focus his mind. And a friend of his like introduced or reintroduced him to puzzling, and he really took to it. And I'm not gonna lie, you know, I was definitely one who'd be like, Okay, grandpa, what's going on here?

[10:21] Laura Camien: Um, and then sat down and started puzzling with him, and I'm like, okay, let me let me dig in a little bit to this.

[10:28] Susan Blackwell: This is so sweet.

[10:30] Laura Camien: So what he likes to do is uh put on music. Oftentimes it's classical music, it's like the BBC, or he could put on a podcast, yes. May I recommend The Spark File?

[10:41] Susan Blackwell: Or he'll be like, babe, I'm puzzling and I'm listening to The Spark File.

[10:45] Laura Camien: Which is super sweet.

[10:46] Susan Blackwell: That is sweet. And or he puts on Spotify, like uh he loves the Billy Ocean channel that has like Whitney Houston classics and Lionel Richie. And you just never like this guy and his music choices like is always such a delightful surprise.

[11:01] Laura Camien: Hollow notes might just pop in there.

[11:04] Susan Blackwell: Yes. You know what I mean? And it's so joyful. And so Wes will like take care of the music choices. We'll sit down and um and we'll puzzle, which has been amazing. But lately he's been getting into entertaining himself, making these little videos of his puzzles.

[11:23] Laura Camien: Really?

[11:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:24] Laura Camien: Oh, this I've missed.

[11:25] Susan Blackwell: Well, for like for his on his social, he'll um like let's say he's doing a Game of Thrones puzzle with like a the big dragon and the Night King and John Snow and whatnot. He'll make a little video a little progress video with like music from Puff the Magic Dragon and combine it with this puzzle and just really just entertaining himself and then people get a kick out of it and and then he's like, Oh, I'm discovering friends like online that like these things that I didn't know anything about them.

[11:56] Laura Camien: I love that.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: Which is really, really neat. But you know, he also has an awareness that you know it's not the coolest thing to do. And like we've called him Manny and Grandpa, I think.

[12:10] Laura Camien: Just in the past five minutes.

[12:12] Susan Blackwell: Just in the past five minutes. So he gets a little bit of a Tino shade.

[12:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, he gets, yeah, he gets both like reconnection with people he didn't know had this passion as well. And just hard shade.

[12:23] Susan Blackwell: And then also total shade.

[12:25] Laura Camien: Total shade. He'll be like the sweetest thing. I'm sorry, babe, I'm telling this story. But um, like the sweetest thing he said to me, as though it was a surprise, a bit like, you know, um, I'm getting the sense that like puzzling puzzling's not really the coolest thing to do.

[12:45] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, yeah, babe. You just now caught on to that. I don't know. I think it's one of those things that swings around so far that it comes back to cool.

[12:56] Laura Camien: I think that's right.

[12:57] Susan Blackwell: And we're gonna talk a little bit about that. Anything like you were saying, anything that like calms the mind, anything that eases the spirit. Um, another puzzler that we know who is never calmer than when they are doing a puzzle is our friend Michael Baress, who I referred to several times in the Larry Nasser episode.

[13:16] Laura Camien: He is like on group vacations and stuff.

[13:19] Susan Blackwell: He's never more in my observation, never more chill than when he is doing a puzzle. And that I even call his mind a puzzle mind. Michael Baress has a puzzle mind. He's able to hold a lot of, he's very intelligent. He's able to hold a lot of information in his brain. He's able to, he has like weird version recall of oh no, there was a rewrite you did three times ago. That like his mind is what I call a puzzle mind, and it's also quieted by puzzling.

[13:50] Laura Camien: That is delightful to know.

[13:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Um, apparently, like Jeff Bowen wrote to us on social as well. Like, you know, Michael Bressa's husband was so delighted. He was like, Jeff loved my bird, my bird puzzle.

[14:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, Jeff's a bird nerd.

[14:04] Susan Blackwell: I mean and a little bit of a puzzle. Just so sweet and so joy-inducing. And so, of course, I was like, Yeah, babe, I I'm not sure it is the coolest thing, but who cares?

[14:15] Laura Camien: He doesn't care.

[14:16] Susan Blackwell: He's like, I know, whatever. Um, he's never led his life. We're gonna bully you west, but who cares?

[14:21] Laura Camien: That's right. But don't care. Try not to care when we teach you.

[14:25] Laura Camien: Um, but no, he's never lived his life in, you know, in terms of like, oh, I want my free time must be spent doing some trend setting things, not his concern. Um, so he's really loving it, and I'm loving when I like sit down with him. It's really soothing and meditative, and um I started to, you know, think further about this, and I was like, I'm just gonna ask around a little bit. I'm gonna touch base with a couple friends just on the puzzling front. And one friend, super fun. She is like, oh my God, I just did like a hypnotherapy session. And she's like, I was inside my mind palace, and I went into a room, and my therapist was like, if you need to do something, do it. She does her whole therapy session, and then her therapist is like, okay, did you do something when you were in that room?

And she's like, Yeah, I had to stop and do a puzzle. And she's like, I love jigsaw puzzles, I love them. So I was like, that's super cool. And I've had several, several friends, like almost universally, I would say, like a huge sigh, or like a wow, I used to love doing puzzles, or I'd love to do some puzzles, but like somehow life has gotten in the way and it's we're busy, and taking the time to do something that seems so simple and maybe not goal-oriented is something is like a luxury that we don't allow ourselves anymore. And I definitely think I would fall into that camp normally, like if Wes wasn't doing it. As you are talking, I'm just thinking even if I wanted to, I don't know when we would find I mean, we have a lot of stuff going on.

[16:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you and I have a lot of stuff going on. Nathan and I have a lot of stuff going on, and I'm like, huh, when would we squeeze in the puzzling? But maybe like when our house is done being renovated, maybe when we're done, you know, doing it. You know, but I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about what it does to the brain, and you may be fulfilling the same thing that it does in other ways with your meditation.

[16:35] Laura Camien: I sure do. And I think that like if something like puzzling, like I said, like I wouldn't, I would be like, oh no, no, no, no. I have things to cross off my list, I have things that I have to achieve and do. So it's interesting how many people may feel a little bit of a longing for the thing that it gives them. Um several people said that they lived in households or within family dynamics that were a bit more chaotic or maybe had parents with some obsessive compulsions or neuroses that kept them anxious.

[17:12] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And that in these moments, when a family member got out of puzzle for them to do together, like it quieted the mental noise. Yes. And that as they worked together like peacefully, like they had some of their best family time together around a puzzle. This makes so much sense to me.

[17:34] Laura Camien: Yes. Pretty, pretty cool. So then I remember when we were talking to Leslie Odom Jr., he was answering one of our questions, and he was trying to describe a feeling, and he was like, that moment when you find the exact right puzzle piece, like the one you're holding in your mind, and you see the shape and you know exactly what it is and it's gonna fit there, and you know where it is, and it snaps into place.

[18:00] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And he like looked at me in that moment, he's like, you know, and it then he was like, you know. And I'm like, I do know, I do know, because I just did a puzzle with Wes. I was like, I do, I know, I know what you're talking about.

[18:11] Laura Camien: Yeah, and it's that very satisfying feeling of like finding an answer that is maybe existed in your subconscious, and it just all comes together perfectly. So it was really it was neat. It's like now that I have an awareness of it, yeah. I'm seeing and hearing more, like when this topic kind of comes up naturally and and the depth of feeling that people have about it.

[18:37] Susan Blackwell: Um, but so for the purpose of this um Sparks today, I thought I would take a little bit of a deeper dive into what the draw is to puzzle. This is great, you know? Maybe obviously some of the deterrence. I feel like I just became possessed.

[18:54] Laura Camien: This is great. I was so excited. Holy this is so great. Okay. No, this is great because as you talk about this, I've gonna tell you, I have not I've given to passing thought to this. Like why I knew that Wes had gone through a hard time and I knew he started puzzling. I was like, that's interesting, slash curious. And I've also observed other friends who come from backgrounds like the ones you're describing, yeah. Who are drawn to puzzling. And I'm like, that's interesting, but I've never taken the time that you have taken to talk about and figure out, like, do a little research on why.

[19:31] Susan Blackwell: So I'm going to go.

[19:33] Laura Camien: Let's dig it to me, baby. Let's go. All right. So a little bit of history first, because you know I love that. Uh the first known puzzle, jigsaw puzzle was created in, well, it wouldn't have been jigsaw at the time because there was no jigsaw. They were not jigs.

[19:47] Susan Blackwell: No jigs and no saws.

[19:50] Laura Camien: But the first known puzzle was created in 1767. There might have been saws, but no jigs.

[19:56] Susan Blackwell: Well, there must have been saws.

[19:58] Laura Camien: I want to start this whole paragraph. Fuck that. 1767.

[20:03] Susan Blackwell: Okay, got it, got it.

[20:04] Laura Camien: An Englishman named John Spilsbury.

[20:07] Susan Blackwell: I love that name.

[20:08] Laura Camien: Spilsbury. Somebody take the spark of that name and use it as a character name in something that has nothing to do with.

[20:16] Susan Blackwell: Yes, please, and then tell us.

[20:17] Laura Camien: Oh my god, John Spilsbury. So he was a London engraver and a map maker, and his first jigsaw puzzle was a map of the world.

[20:25] Susan Blackwell: Of course.

[20:26] Laura Camien: And he attached a map to a piece of wood, and then he cut out each country. And he like his kids used it to learn Geography.

[20:36] Susan Blackwell: Geography.

[20:37] Laura Camien: And then teachers started using it.

[20:39] Susan Blackwell: Smart.

[20:40] Laura Camien: You know, super smart. But puzzles basically stayed the same for the next hundred years. Not a lot of people. You glue it to a piece of wood. You cut things out.

[20:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[20:53] Laura Camien: Exactly. Um, but then in 1865, we were we had the ability to create machine-aided, you know, curved lines and stuff. Um it was called a scroll saw, but eventually would be called a jigsaw.

[21:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, and that tool, obviously, uh was used to make the puzzles.

[21:16] Laura Camien: Still wooden puzzles at that time. But the kind of shapes we know now, are we moving towards those shapes? I'm not sure.

[21:22] Susan Blackwell: I don't think yet.

[21:25] Laura Camien: Okay, I'm gonna make a guess. I wonder. I wonder what those early shapes were. Because I don't think it was probably the those when we think of you when you think of a puzzle piece, like you think Curious George ate a puzzle piece, like you can immediately picture what a modern puzzle piece looks like.

[21:39] Susan Blackwell: Right, right.

[21:39] Laura Camien: I remember when Curious George ate a puzzle piece. Do you remember that book?

[21:44] Susan Blackwell: There's a book where Curious George eats a puzzle piece and I love that book.

[21:49] Laura Camien: Are you crying?

[21:50] Susan Blackwell: No, I love that she's dabbing her eyes.

[21:53] Laura Camien: I thought she was crying. I loved that book, and when I imagined him eating the puzzle piece, I had a very visceral feeling about I loved the way puzzle pieces, especially like for like think of a puzzle that an elementary school kid would do, like the bigger pieces.

[22:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[22:11] Laura Camien: And I imagine when he ate it, it tasted like one of those frosted cookies, like those really frosted, like pretty colorful cookings.

[22:23] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[22:24] Laura Camien: I doubt it tasted anything like that.

[22:26] Susan Blackwell: I know, and he probably gave him a tummy ache.

[22:28] Laura Camien: But if it did, I'd have a puzzle piece.

[22:32] Susan Blackwell: Um, I'm feeling now with my best educated guests, those pieces did not come along until there was die cast, and they uh which I'll get to, and they like pressed the piece shapes down onto the cardboard and cut it.

[22:50] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[22:51] Susan Blackwell: Instead of like a saw cutting through wood.

[22:53] Laura Camien: That's right.

[22:53] Susan Blackwell: This is still like you still were kind of hand cutting it, but you had the the saw could do more and we can cut all this out.

[23:02] Laura Camien: We don't have to cut it out.

[23:03] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[23:03] Laura Camien: No, no, that's that's totally fun.

[23:05] Susan Blackwell: We're gonna cut everything out of this whole episode.

[23:07] Laura Camien: No, don't cut it.

[23:08] Susan Blackwell: Like a jigsaw puzzle.

[23:11] Laura Camien: On theme.

[23:12] Susan Blackwell: That's it won't be the last of it.

[23:14] Laura Camien: I'm so I'm sad to say. There'll be many, many more metaphors.

[23:18] Susan Blackwell: Um, but no, you don't have to cut it because we're back.

[23:21] Laura Camien: We're back at 1865. So we have the jigsaw, and it is they're able to do more and more easily with the aid of this saw, but it's not um does that make puzzles more readily available to people?

[23:35] Susan Blackwell: A little, but not really in a in a major way.

[23:39] Laura Camien: In an industrial assembly line puzzle model.

[23:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, okay.

[23:43] Laura Camien: So by 1880, though, they were machine crafted in the early 20th century, which is early 1900s, the die cut machines that we were just talking about.

[23:53] Susan Blackwell: Thank you for saying that because I have to tell you that I often when people say 20th century, I can't remember if you subtract a hundred or add a hundred.

[24:00] Laura Camien: I do the same thing, you have to do the math.

[24:02] Susan Blackwell: Subtract.

[24:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, you subtract.

[24:05] Susan Blackwell: 20th century, 19th century. Did I mention that I my master's degree?

[24:09] Laura Camien: Did I mention it's an acting?

[24:14] Susan Blackwell: Act your way out of that bag.

[24:16] Laura Camien: Okay, so in the 19th century.

[24:18] Susan Blackwell: So early 20th century, which is early 1900s, die cut machines were able to mass produce the jigsaw puzzles.

[24:26] Laura Camien: Like they're like printmaking stencils, they were pressed down onto the sheets of cardboard picture of that.

[24:31] Susan Blackwell: Or like really soft wood, and they would cut that.

[24:35] Laura Camien: Um like ballosilwood? That's a soft one.

[24:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it could be. And this is around the time that we worked into what's considered the golden age of jigsaw puzzles, which is the 1930s.

[24:49] Laura Camien: I had no idea that they had a golden age.

[24:51] Susan Blackwell: I had no idea.

[24:52] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[24:53] Susan Blackwell: So in the 1930s, this was it was huge.

[24:57] Laura Camien: One, they could be mass-produced.

[24:59] Susan Blackwell: Um like domestic scenes and railroad trains were popular, and companies use them as marketing tools as well.

[25:08] Laura Camien: So they were oftentimes like add-ons, like get a 25 cent puzzle of you know, your favorite hockey team with the purchase of this shampoo or this toothpaste, you know, so you'd get these little extra real brand synergy there.

[25:24] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[25:25] Laura Camien: That's right, you know, they were smart, they were they were really working it. But anything from like toothbrush or shampoo or whatever could include like a free puzzle or a little bit of an upgrade puzzle.

[25:37] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[25:38] Laura Camien: Um, that this you know, if you can imagine, like the consumer would be so excited, I got this puzzle, this is great, and then the advertiser would be thrilled because the puzzle includes their product, sure, so it's worked in there somewhere, so then there's your product at like an advertisement on the dining room table for a week as the table gets made.

[25:58] Susan Blackwell: Oh, or I mean as the puzzle gets made. Yes, you know what I mean? So it's kind of genius.

[26:02] Laura Camien: Was a hockey team really one of them?

[26:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[26:04] Laura Camien: Oh, I thought you made that up.

[26:06] Susan Blackwell: No, maple leaf, a hockey team. I mean, I'm sure there were more than that, but yeah, that was an example that I saw.

[26:12] Laura Camien: Huh. Amazing.

[26:13] Susan Blackwell: Who knew?

[26:15] Laura Camien: Um, I probably wouldn't pull out of my butt like a hockey example ever.

[26:19] Susan Blackwell: I know.

[26:19] Laura Camien: I was like, that is a deep cut for you.

[26:22] Susan Blackwell: Can I ask? Did you get it?

[26:24] Laura Camien: Yeah. Did you was it one of those things where you got it like at the store?

[26:28] Susan Blackwell: If you purchase the shampoo, you get the puzzle, or did you have to mail away and wait two months to get it?

[26:33] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[26:33] Susan Blackwell: I'm not sure.

[26:35] Laura Camien: Because I mean it's hard for me to imagine now that they stocked a bunch of puzzles, but I don't really know.

[26:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm just making that up.

[26:42] Laura Camien: Wow.

[26:43] Susan Blackwell: So the 30s were rocking it with the puzzle.

[26:45] Laura Camien: 30s were rocking it. Also, for this reason, the US was going through the Great Depression.

[26:52] Susan Blackwell: And puzzles, if you think about it, they're a pastime for individuals or for whole families or even groups at parties.

[27:00] Laura Camien: Um they were relatively inexpensive.

[27:03] Susan Blackwell: They could be done repeatedly.

[27:05] Laura Camien: You could do them and then you could share the puzzle with your friend.

[27:09] Susan Blackwell: Um and pass them around.

[27:11] Laura Camien: There were even like lending libraries where you could rent a puzzle.

[27:18] Susan Blackwell: Wait a second.

[27:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:19] Susan Blackwell: And then you would what if somebody returned it and they didn't include all the pieces?

[27:25] Laura Camien: The library counted the pieces when it was returned to make sure that you, Susan, included all the pieces.

[27:32] Susan Blackwell: Whose job was that?

[27:34] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[27:35] Susan Blackwell: Oh I don't know.

[27:36] Laura Camien: Sweet Miss Marmalade the library and counting puzzle pieces.

[27:39] Susan Blackwell: The rental rates could be anywhere from like three cents to ten cents per day, depending on like the complexity of the puzzle and the popularity of the puzzle.

[27:48] Laura Camien: That's so exciting.

[27:48] Susan Blackwell: Isn't that sweet?

[27:50] Laura Camien: So it was interesting because most other commodities were seeing like a downfall in this time, but jigsaw puzzles witnessed a boom.

[28:01] Susan Blackwell: It was crazy.

[28:02] Laura Camien: So there's a puzzle historian, Ann Williams, who seems to have cornered the market on puzzle history.

[28:09] Susan Blackwell: I saw her everywhere.

[28:10] Laura Camien: And she explained the phenomenon in this way. Puzzles seem to touch a cord, offering an escape from troubled times as well as the opportunity to succeed in a modest way.

[28:22] Susan Blackwell: Completing a jigsaw gave the puzzler a sense of accomplishment that was hard to come by when the unemployment rates were climbing above 25%.

[28:33] Laura Camien: With incomes depleted, home amusements like puzzles replaced outside entertainment like restaurants and nightclubs.

[28:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[28:42] Laura Camien: Yes.

[28:42] Susan Blackwell: That's so touching.

[28:45] Laura Camien: It's so touching, right? To think about like puzzles really brought people together during very hard times.

[28:53] Laura Camien: I remember when we had the recession of 2008, and our household got hit pretty hard by that. And I remember thinking of all the things we could do that would still be engaging and cost little to no money. That's right. And I was like, well, we could go for walks, we can, and I was like, we can do that. Puzzles. You could do puzzles. And at this time in the 30s, a lot of people were out of work. Carpenters, craftsmen, even architects found themselves suddenly unemployed. And the making of jigsaw puzzles became a way to generate at least a little bit of income. Wow. So they would cut jigsaw puzzles, and cutting wooden, these were like the heyday of wooden jigsaw puzzles. It kind of became a little cottage industry during the depression, and local manufacturers, you know, and local people starting their own small businesses to either rent or sell these puzzles.

[30:06] Susan Blackwell: Can I, if I don't want to jump ahead if it's gonna bust your spark, but is there like a huge market for antique puzzles? Are we gonna get there?

[30:17] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm totally, you know I couldn't miss that one. Yes, yeah. We're gonna go there. This is sparks on sparks for me. It's sparks on sparks for me because I found a little bit of a thing that made me so excited. I'm gonna tell you about it in a minute. But so for consumers, because so many people were making puzzles, the prices dropped even more, which was great for them, you know, and made it even more doable. By 1933, jigsaw puzzles were being sold at a rate of 10 million puzzles per week.

[30:49] Susan Blackwell: What year?

[30:50] Laura Camien: 1933.

[30:51] Susan Blackwell: Heyday, golden era.

[30:53] Laura Camien: Frickin' believable. It makes so much sense to me though when you say this. Yeah. So these like they came up with like a bunch of things like jig of the week, picture puzzle weekly, bewitching weekly, movie cut ups, so they would be tie-ins with, you know, movies. So if you loved like, I don't know, I'm making up movie star names. Is Lornette Taylor a real movie star?

[31:29] Susan Blackwell: Making her up.

[31:31] Laura Camien: If you love Lornette Taylor, you might run out and get that puzzle.

[31:35] Susan Blackwell: Star of silent movies.

[31:36] Laura Camien: Yes. You may want her, that's right. Her glamour shot from the studio, but as a puzzle in puzzle form. Yeah. And you would go out weekly to get your new puzzle. So instead of like going and getting a magazine of like the stars or whatever, you could get a puzzle. And that would be your entertainment for the week. You might get both because you might get the free puzzle with the magazine. You know what I mean? Or you might get a five cent puzzle with the purchase of a magazine.

[32:11] Susan Blackwell: But you may get there.

[32:12] Laura Camien: So go ahead.

[32:12] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[32:13] Laura Camien: So with these cardboard puzzles becoming popular and sort of flooding the market, the wooden puzzles, like obviously, they could not compete, like they couldn't keep their prices at the same price point. A lot of wooden puzzle manufacturers either converted to like die-cut cardboard or they went out of business. But something really remarkable happened in 1932. Two young men, Frank Ware and John Henriquez, they sat down at their kitchen table and they created their first puzzle, and they went into business with the name Par Puzzles. And you may not have heard of Par Puzzles before, but they were and still are known as the Rolls Royce of jigsaw puzzles.

[33:11] Susan Blackwell: So Par Puzzles, um, so they like kind of flew against the trend in the industry. They hand cut every single puzzle they made and they produced puzzles for like wealthy industrialists, movie stars, royalty, for example, Dwight D. Eisenhower, the Vanderbilts, the Astors, the Rockefellers, the DuPonts, the Time Magazine publisher Henry Luce and his wife Claire Booth Luce. Yeah, were both Par supporters and like made a big to do like publicly for their love for them. Um, Henry Bogart, Bing Crosby, Yule Brenner, Marlene Dietrich.

[33:56] Laura Camien: Wait, wait, are you saying that they were featured on a puzzle?

[33:59] Susan Blackwell: No, no, no, no, no. These were fans of Par Puzzles.

[34:02] Laura Camien: Fans of the puzzles. Marilyn Monroe, Gary Cooper, James Garner, the Duke of Windsor loved the puzzles so much. And these, like I said, these are hand done. Every single one of them are they're unique. So for the Duke of Windsor, puzzle pieces would be in each one of them, HRH would be like His Royal Highness would be cut out somewhere in every single puzzle.

[34:31] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[34:31] Laura Camien: All of these people had Par Puzzles, and they really loved a, like again, if your mind is going to the puzzle pieces that we know of today, wipe the slate clean, because these were all handmade.

[34:48] Susan Blackwell: Wait a second.

[34:49] Laura Camien: Each one hand single.

[35:03] Susan Blackwell: From a piece from the piece of wood.

[35:05] Laura Camien: Each piece is a different shape. It's not uniform in any way. So they might, like I said, like they might start with a HRH for him, but then all the other little things. There could be little animals, there could be stars and stripes and these weren't. You did not get a Par Puzzle when you bought a bottle of shampoo.

[35:26] Susan Blackwell: Heck no.

[35:27] Laura Camien: These are really expensive puzzles. These were the other end of the spectrum.

[35:30] Susan Blackwell: So for a lot of people, because a luxury puzzle.

[35:33] Laura Camien: Well, because like I'm saying, like the other wooden puzzle makers had to go out of business because they couldn't compete with cardboard. So Par just went the other way and said, We're making the best of the best. They wish so high-end, so luxury. So niche. So early on. I did not know luxury puzzles existed.

[35:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[35:53] Laura Camien: Until the spark.

[35:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh, they do.

[35:55] Laura Camien: Wow. Oh, they do. And they still do. And I'll tell you about that in a second. But early on, they would cut a symbol for the company into each one. That symbol was a swastika. That is because prior to Hitler using that symbol. Yep. It is a Hindu character that represents divinity and spirituality. That's right. And they used it in their puzzles to represent Par Puzzles. As soon as Hitler, you know, they weren't the only ones. Coca-Cola, a lot of people used the symbol. As soon as Hitler appropriated it and decided it was his symbol, they stopped immediately. And gosh, but if you have one of those puzzles. Oh my God, could you imagine? It must be like worth a lot.

[36:44] Susan Blackwell: Well, I went on eBay to look for Par Puzzles. And like the least expensive one I saw was like $1,300.

[36:52] Laura Camien: Oh. Yeah. But anyway, so they, as soon as Hitler started to use the swastika, they switched to a seahorse. And now there's a seahorse in every Par Puzzle.

[37:04] Susan Blackwell: I love seahorses.

[37:05] Laura Camien: Isn't that super, super sweet? I love that. So they would often customize, like you might have your birthday initials or the year of your anniversary. Again, those might be like carved into the puzzle, which was really sweet.

[37:23] Susan Blackwell: Would you commission these and that's how you would have them customized?

[37:26] Laura Camien: You could. You could, yeah. You didn't have to. But if you didn't, um, but if you're a Yule Brenner, you could be like, I'll have one and I'll have the head of the king or something. The other thing that people may not realize is that these puzzles did not come with the image of the puzzle on the box anywhere.

[37:47] Susan Blackwell: You are shitting me.

[37:49] Laura Camien: I am not. They thought that was cheating. Like, why would you do that? Like you need to put the puzzle out and you figure out what it is.

[37:58] Susan Blackwell: Oh, so you don't know what the image is that you are building towards.

[38:03] Laura Camien: And this is amazing. And with Par Puzzles, they perfected the non, like the edges. Like you might think we're gonna sit down, we're gonna build the frame. We're gonna build the frame. Yeah, and no, you won't because you don't know what the edges look like. Because the way they cut the edges are and they're not regular. So you would have, it would come in a box so hard and it would just say Par Puzzles, and for Par, they would put on the box what they considered Par times. So it would be a challenge to you. It might be like this puzzle can be done in four and a half hours. It can be done. They would rate how hard the, that's the Par time.

[38:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:49] Laura Camien: Kind of like golf, you know.

[38:50] Susan Blackwell: That and that's where they got their name Par.

[38:55] Laura Camien: From Par Puzzles.

[38:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:56] Laura Camien: Par Puzzles. Wow. So that's that. Um, which was really, I thought really cool. Um, very cool. And I wondered, like with Wes if he ever does not. I mean, I guess when you buy a puzzle now, mostly you see the image on the outside of the box. But I wonder if he ever tucks it away and is like, I'm gonna try to challenge myself. Not that I know how not that I know of, but he could, he might try. I did find in my research, like the most challenging puzzle now is a clear plastic puzzle that you obviously you don't know which way which piece is, yeah, which the flip of top and bottom. That's right. There's no difference between top and bottom. You can see through it. There's no image, there's no image, so it's all clear.

Yeah. That today in this particular moment is considered the hardest one. But in the history of puzzling around the 1960s, the printing and the die cutting began to like get better, and they could do more like fine art reproductions. And at that time in 1965, they printed a Jackson Pollock convergence puzzle, which at that time was billed as like the world's most difficult puzzle.

[40:17] Susan Blackwell: So is it just splatters on splatters?

[40:19] Laura Camien: Yeah, and they sold like thousands upon thousands upon thousands because you're like, I gotta try the hardest puzzle in the world. It's a challenge, but also when you're done, you have a Jackson Pollock.

[40:26] Susan Blackwell: You have a Jackson Pollock.

[40:31] Laura Camien: And if you mod podge it and like that's right. Then you have a Jackson Pollock. Guess who has done that in our house? That's right. West Wolfram. That's right. So following World War II, the wage scale made like wooden puzzles even more expensive. These um other people like Parker Brothers, um, people stopped making wooden puzzles. It kind of like priced themselves out of like popularity. And Frank Ware, the founder of Par Puzzles, was retiring. And so it seemed like Par Puzzles was coming to an end.

[41:14] Susan Blackwell: Oh no.

[41:16] Laura Camien: But guess what? I discovered.

[41:18] Susan Blackwell: What?

[41:19] Laura Camien: They still exist.

[41:21] Susan Blackwell: They still exist.

[41:23] Laura Camien: Frank Ware did not have anyone to hand the business to, but he had an apprentice. And his name was Arthur Gallagher. He took over the business. He had three sons. Those sons were not interested in the business, but he had an apprentice who was a friend of their his son's. His name was John Madden. And he took over the business, and he and his son still run it. It's located in Long Island, New York.

[41:50] Susan Blackwell: You're kidding.

[41:51] Laura Camien: I am not. You can go on parpuzzles.com right now. The puzzles are like 1,500 and up because they are one of a kind. What an amazing gift. It's incredible. And now, so as you were, it's funny you mentioned like during the recession. So just in terms of history of puzzles, 2008 and 2009, we saw an enormous resurgence again in puzzles. Affordable entertainment. Also, people, I think are looking for an escape from their technology and their screens to get away from their screens for a little bit. Brilliant. And so in this meantime, some younger people have gotten into the business of bringing back the art form of wooden puzzles. And one is a company hipsters.

[42:47] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[42:47] Laura Camien: Yes, artisan mustaches. Yes. There's one called Artifact Puzzles. I just found them and I just got Wes a couple of these. They're wooden pieces. You can get a custom picture, but also like the pieces are little custom shapes. They're not all one of a kind, though. You can also order from them that are, you know, whatever, in stock as they are now. But they're really cool.

[43:15] Laura Camien: And that Wes also was sent on social when he posted a couple of friends are like, Look what I'm doing right now.

[43:21] Susan Blackwell: And he and they sent like um wooden pieces.

[43:24] Laura Camien: I don't know if those were artifact puzzles or not.

[43:27] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[43:27] Laura Camien: That's so cool.

[43:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[43:29] Laura Camien: So really, really cool.

[43:32] Susan Blackwell: Um, the woman named there's a woman named Maya Gupta.

[43:38] Laura Camien: She is an electrical engineer and she started artifact puzzles.

[43:42] Susan Blackwell: And she said, I was hoping to find an audience that would be a lot like me, people who are technology professionals but want to get away from the computer.

[43:52] Laura Camien: Um I love that.

[43:54] Susan Blackwell: She said she likes jigsaws because they can be assembled neatly in a finite amount of time.

[43:59] Laura Camien: By contrast, in her engineering work, the problems are not solvable and things don't ever finish.

[44:05] Susan Blackwell: So it circles back to that thing that you said originally, which is in uh challenging times, whether that's because of a depression or recession or because you do work that doesn't solve easily. It's a way for people to have that sense of, I don't remember the exact words you use, but that sense of gratification from neatly completely solving something.

[44:30] Laura Camien: Yes.

[44:31] Susan Blackwell: And the frankly, dopamine gets released, like I was gonna say, do you know what the chemicals are?

[44:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:36] Susan Blackwell: Well, that one I know.

[44:37] Laura Camien: So every time a puzzle piece clicks, every time a puzzle piece clicks into place, an angel gets a hit of dopamine.

[44:44] Susan Blackwell: Uh yeah, that's a phrase.

[44:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:47] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[44:49] Laura Camien: Yeah, that but that is true.

[44:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[44:50] Laura Camien: But you're spot on.

[44:52] Susan Blackwell: Which makes it a nice alternative to things like your cell phone, your iPad, social media, because instead of waiting for the dopamine hit to come from I got the little red dot that somebody messaged me, or somebody liked a thing I posted, it could be the satisfaction of you putting a puzzle in order.

[45:11] Laura Camien: That's right.

[45:12] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[45:12] Laura Camien: That's right.

[45:13] Susan Blackwell: There's um, in terms of like the timeline of puzzles, I don't even almost don't even want to mention this because I don't know how I feel.

[45:23] Laura Camien: I'm dubious.

[45:23] Susan Blackwell: Um, but like there are now apps that you know you can do to like put puzzle pieces. And then I'm like, I don't see, I'm I'm I want to say it just so I know I recognize that is true, but I I'm dubious.

[45:38] Laura Camien: I'm not sure that you get the same benefits that that we're talking about.

[45:41] Susan Blackwell: And I there's something about the feel of a it goes back to my curious George. There's something about the feeling of a puzzle piece and the way it's a little like shinier on the top, and the way the edges are a little bit curved that is too satisfying.

[45:54] Laura Camien: All of it, all of it.

[45:56] Susan Blackwell: So I wanted to touch base just a little bit more with you know, experts' points of view on why puzzling is so satisfying. And there have been a number of studies, including the MacArthur study, that have shown that keeping the mind active with jigsaw puzzles and other like mind flexing activities can actually lead to longer life expectancy, a better quality of life, um, a reduction of chances of developing certain types of mental illness, including memory loss, dementia, and even Alzheimer's disease.

[46:30] Laura Camien: That gets cut by a third, which is pretty amazing.

[46:34] Susan Blackwell: A third is so many.

[46:36] Laura Camien: A third is so many.

[46:37] Susan Blackwell: It is oh my god.

[46:39] Laura Camien: A third is so many.

[46:40] Susan Blackwell: I thought you were teasing me.

[46:41] Laura Camien: No, a third is a lot.

[46:42] Susan Blackwell: Like it is a lot.

[46:43] Laura Camien: 33% is amazing.

[46:44] Susan Blackwell: It cuts down on Alzheimer's.

[46:46] Laura Camien: It's 33%.

[46:47] Susan Blackwell: No, no. That's news you can use.

[46:48] Laura Camien: News you can use.

[46:49] Susan Blackwell: This is great.

[46:50] Laura Camien: So it makes us alert, it increases our concentration, it expands our creativity.

[46:55] Susan Blackwell: So I have a little list of things that I wanted to share, just you know, the results of all of these tests. But I think that the biggest takeaway is like the simplicity of them is really deceptive. Your brain is working on so many levels.

[47:16] Laura Camien: For example, so what the most of these studies talk about, as we most of us know, the brain has two separate hemispheres, the left and the right brain, and the right brain deals with emotions and performs tasks like holistically, and the left brain functions in a more linear fashion.

[47:35] Susan Blackwell: So the left brain, our analytical side sees all of these separate pieces and attempts to sort them out logically. The right brain, our creative side is seeing the big picture and working more intuitively. And in this process, your brain cells, you're actually making connections between brain cells. You know, we always love this like neuroscience and and how to strengthen the pathways in our brain. And as it turns out, like jigsaw puzzles are helping you do that, like helping you helping increase your ability to learn, to comprehend, to remember, and like we just mentioned, like encourage the production of dopamine and brain chemicals that increase your learning and your memory and your happiness, frankly.

[48:22] Laura Camien: So overall, they induce this state of creative focused meditation where connections can be made on deeper.

[48:22] Susan Blackwell: Creative focused meditation.

[48:32] Laura Camien: Yeah, come on.

[48:34] Susan Blackwell: Creative meditation is the phrase I kept coming back to in this research, creative meditation. You know how I'm always searching for the phrase that describes the feeling that you get when you're in the midst of making something and you're like you have this sense of satisfaction.

[48:49] Laura Camien: That's right.

[48:49] Susan Blackwell: Creative meditation comes the closest of anything I've ever heard.

[48:53] Laura Camien: I thought so too, because uh previously flow state was the state like people would talk about it. And I'm like, it's almost it's almost that it is flow, but it feels like it's more than that.

[49:04] Susan Blackwell: And to me, creative meditation got a little bit closer to it.

[49:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, but so just to get into the specifics, that they have identified a number of thought processes that are required to undertake this complex process of identifying shapes and images and relating them to an overall pattern.

[49:25] Susan Blackwell: So the benefits include problem solving skills. I think that's you know uh pretty self-explanatory. It enhances self-evaluation, like trying to see how pieces fit and reassess where they might go, um how they relate to each other. If they don't fit this way, they might fit another way. Um, it's like having your brain constantly reevaluate decisions and teaching patients at the same time.

[49:58] Laura Camien: Um, it improves learning abilities. You get better at recognizing shape, slight color differences, just basic like learning structures.

[50:09] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing.

[50:10] Laura Camien: It helps with overall perception and understanding. Often, like only a certain amount of information about a situation is available when you have to make a decision.

[50:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, sometimes you're just looking at the clear puzzle.

[50:23] Laura Camien: That's it, right?

[50:24] Susan Blackwell: You don't know what's up and what's down.

[50:25] Laura Camien: That's right.

[50:26] Susan Blackwell: Or all you know is it's got a little bump right here in the piece, but I don't know what the rest of it looks like. So I know I'm looking for this one thing fulfillment.

[50:38] Laura Camien: So that that piece that we've talked about.

[50:42] Susan Blackwell: Um, and the dementia treatment.

[50:46] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[50:47] Susan Blackwell: So a couple of things I will leave you with. Um there's a woman on YouTube named Karen Puzzles.

[50:53] Laura Camien: I enjoy her very much.

[50:55] Susan Blackwell: Um I wish that was her real last name.

[50:57] Laura Camien: Karen Puzzles.

[50:59] Susan Blackwell: Um, but she says doing puzzles makes me feel like I'm healing the parts of my brain that the internet has rotted.

[51:06] Laura Camien: Oh I look for a piece I need, I find the peace I need.

[51:11] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[51:12] Laura Camien: Right.

[51:13] Susan Blackwell: Um I know.

[51:16] Laura Camien: I know.

[51:16] Susan Blackwell: The very first puzzles were used to teach children geography.

[51:20] Laura Camien: And some might say that 250 years later, puzzles are still good for helping people find their way.

[51:26] Susan Blackwell: Oh come on.

[51:29] Laura Camien: Um, and I'll just leave you with this.

[51:31] Susan Blackwell: When Par Puzzles originally chose the swastika to use their as their symbol, one interpretation of the symbol is well-being.

[51:40] Laura Camien: And I just think that seems symbolically like a very, very good choice for puzzle making.

[51:47] Susan Blackwell: I love that, and I'm so mad at Hitler for ruining that for all of us.

[51:50] Laura Camien: Oh, I know.

[51:51] Susan Blackwell: Who knew that the spark is?

[51:52] Laura Camien: What a good one.

[51:53] Susan Blackwell: Fuck you, Hitler.

[51:54] Laura Camien: Fuck you, Hitler.

[51:55] Susan Blackwell: That is so great, Cam.

[51:57] Laura Camien: I have so many sparks.

[51:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh, good.

[52:00] Laura Camien: Good, good, good.

[52:00] Susan Blackwell: I want to hear.

[52:01] Laura Camien: I feel like we are due for a puzzle renaissance.

[52:04] Susan Blackwell: We are.

[52:04] Laura Camien: And you know how like everybody was a lot of people were doing like that therapeutic coloring books for adults.

[52:12] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[52:12] Laura Camien: This could be so if you're an inventor, if you're like a marketer, if you're somebody shocks.

[52:21] Susan Blackwell: Here's my proposal for you.

[52:22] Laura Camien: Like there's something about this like meditative therapeutic puzzling that I think is due for a renaissance.

[52:29] Susan Blackwell: I think there could be tie-ins like yieldie times, tie-ins with other products potentially.

[52:36] Laura Camien: Um I have observed in myself, and it makes me want to this whole thing makes me want to get out of puzzle.

[52:42] Susan Blackwell: I know and give it a spring.

[52:43] Laura Camien: Right.

[52:44] Susan Blackwell: Is when I am doing a puzzle with someone, I have the best conversations.

[52:49] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[52:50] Susan Blackwell: There's something about the activity of the brain, the eyes, and the hands are doing a puzzle, and the conversations that flow out over the top of it are so good.

[53:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[53:00] Susan Blackwell: So that sparks me to want to do a puzzle.

[53:03] Laura Camien: And what else do I did?

[53:08] Susan Blackwell: What were you going to say?

[53:09] Laura Camien: I was gonna say, I feel like when you have reached a creative um challenge, whether it's like I can't figure out this thing in my script, what is this?

[53:21] Susan Blackwell: Show me, what's missing?

[53:23] Laura Camien: Let your subconscious work that stuff out while you're focusing on a puzzle.

[53:28] Susan Blackwell: Because it will.

[53:29] Laura Camien: It really will.

[53:31] Susan Blackwell: I think that's really smart.

[53:33] Laura Camien: I think that's super, super smart.

[53:35] Susan Blackwell: Um this makes me want to puzzle.

[53:38] Laura Camien: The other question that I have is I wonder in your research, or if you know, are there puzzles for the blind?

[53:44] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[53:46] Laura Camien: That's a really, really, really good question.

[53:48] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna find that out.

[53:50] Laura Camien: I think that would be uh, I think all of these benefits would be useful.

[53:56] Susan Blackwell: I have to believe there are.

[53:57] Laura Camien: I have to believe there are.

[53:59] Susan Blackwell: But if there's not, and if you're listening to this and you're sparked by puzzle making or accessibility, I love the idea of puzzles for the blind.

[54:05] Laura Camien: That would be amazing.

[54:06] Susan Blackwell: Good sparks.

[54:08] Laura Camien: Okay.

[54:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm inspired to do a puzzle.

[54:11] Laura Camien: I'm so happy that you are.

[54:13] Susan Blackwell: I'm inspired too.

[54:14] Laura Camien: I'm psyched because I think your spark ties into my spark.

[54:16] Susan Blackwell: Oh, really?

[54:17] Laura Camien: Oh, I can't wait.

[54:18] Susan Blackwell: Lightly.

[54:19] Laura Camien: Yes.

[54:20] Susan Blackwell: Back in a minute.

[54:22] Laura Camien: Woo!

[54:24] Susan Blackwell: I love that spark.

[54:25] Laura Camien: Oh.

[54:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[54:25] Laura Camien: And there there are some little light tie-ins to mine.

[54:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh, good.

[54:30] Laura Camien: Oh, I can't wait.

[54:31] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited.

[54:31] Laura Camien: Um, the title of my spark is We're All Just Walking Each Other Home.

[54:39] Susan Blackwell: Uh, Sparks from the Sparks were provided by a book by Katie Butler, a website called Endoflifeinspirations.com, Threshold Choir dot org, and Pottermore.com.

[54:49] Laura Camien: And here's a little content warning slash trigger warning, aka C W slash T W A K A C Dub slash T dubs.

[54:56] Susan Blackwell: In the Sparks, we are going to be talking about death and medical conditions, as you know I love to do.

[55:02] Laura Camien: So Cammy in beforewarned, listeners, be forewarned.

[55:06] Susan Blackwell: Where's the tissue?

[55:07] Laura Camien: Ah, exactly.

[55:09] Susan Blackwell: Um, so my spark all started with something called the Rs Moriende.

[55:14] Laura Camien: Years and years ago, do you know that term Rs Morienti?

[55:17] Susan Blackwell: Years ago, I initiated this project with my collaborators, Hunter Bell, Jeff Bowen, Heidi Blake and Staff, Larry Prescrow, and Michael Baress, tip of the hat, and we made this off-Broadway musical called Now Hear This.

[55:28] Laura Camien: And it's just this tight 90-minute existential musical comedy now available for licensing via Rogers and Amazon.

[55:35] Susan Blackwell: Anyway, so we're writing this little existential musical comedy. It's about life and death and aspiring to be present. And uh Hunter Bell and I were doing research on this number that we wrote called Pennywords.

[55:48] Laura Camien: Pennywords is this light little bonbon about end of life and palliative care and hospice.

[55:53] Susan Blackwell: And it was sparked by this amazing New Yorker article written by uh author I love named A. Tool Gawande. And if you want to hear that piece, you can find it on my website, Susan Blackwell.com. Anyway, in re in researching that piece, and I swear we're gonna get to the in and inside of this Russian doll. We came across this thing called the Rs Moriende.

[56:13] Laura Camien: And it's a 15th century Latin guide to the art of dying that was reprinted in more than 100 editions across Europe.

[56:22] Susan Blackwell: It was an incredibly popular book by some unknown monk. So this is this little thing that I'm about to this quote, long quote I'm about to read to you, is from this wonderful writing by a woman named Katie Butler.

[56:34] Laura Camien: I'm going to talk more about Katie in a second, but these are her words.

[56:38] Susan Blackwell: In the mid-1400s, when the Black Death was still fresh in the cultural memory, an unnamed Catholic monk wrote a medieval death manual called Ours Moriende or The Art of Dying. Written in Latin and illustrated with woodcuts, it taught the dying and those who love them how to navigate the physical and spiritual trials of the deathbed.

[56:58] Laura Camien: One of the West's first self-help books, it was it went through 65 editions before 1500, and it was translated into all the major languages of Europe.

[57:10] Susan Blackwell: So that's the Rs Moriende.

[57:13] Laura Camien: And it was filled with these woodcuts.

[57:16] Susan Blackwell: And Katie Butler says in each woodcut, they you can see uh illustrations of a dying man or a woman lying in bed, attended by friends and their spouses and angels, and sometimes a doctor or a servant or a favorite hound.

[57:32] Laura Camien: And the soul pictured in these woodcuts is a tiny version of the human being, and it would leave the body and fly to heaven in the company of an army of angels.

[57:43] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes a roof tile would be loosened to ease the escape of the soul.

[57:49] Laura Camien: And then in the same woodcut beneath the bed are demons, and they're urging the ill person to give in to one of the five, um, what they called temptations standing in the way of their dying.

[58:00] Susan Blackwell: And those temptations were lack of faith, despair, impatience, spiritual pride, and avarice, which is not wanting to say goodbye to things and people of this world.

[58:12] Laura Camien: Can you say those five one more time?

[58:14] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes, I can. Here we go. More band names. Lack of faith, despair, impatience, spiritual pride, and avarice.

[58:24] Laura Camien: Wow.

[58:25] Susan Blackwell: Right. So we don't necessarily call them temptations anymore, but these emotions, fear, remorse, wanting to die quickly, and not wanting to die at all, are all familiar to most who have sat at a deathbed or in a deathbed.

[58:39] Laura Camien: And according to that book, those would be the ways that the devil and the demons would be.

[59:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So after Hunter Bell and I wrote this Pennywords piece, which the piece that we wrote explores the end of life of his grandmother and Heidi Blickenstaff's grandmother, and Hunter and Heidi's presence during their grandmother's end of life years. After we wrote and performed all that, then Hunter Bell's mom passed away rather suddenly. And for the first time, I found myself sitting at someone's bedside at their end of life. And I've got to tell you, it was a profound experience. It was, it was very, it was sad at times. It was scary at times, but I also found it, if I'm honest, incredibly life-affirming and really brain-changing.

[1:00:00] Laura Camien: Um, and believe it or not, it was chock a block with sparks.

[1:00:04] Susan Blackwell: I believe it. So, as you know, Camps, pretty much everything that I do in the world is to try to make sense of the world. And I really wanted to make sense of that experience. So I wrote this story called Lindabel, um, featuring original music by Larry Presgrove, and it was directed by Jessica Stone and Bob Heatherington. And I performed it at Story Gathering in 2018. You can see that little jam jam on my website too, SusanBlackwell.com. I swear this isn't just an advertisement from my website.

[1:00:30] Laura Camien: (laughs)

[1:00:34] Susan Blackwell: So in that piece, I share this anecdote about sitting vigil at that hospice and how my mind traveled back in time to my first acting class in college. I had this drama teacher who had us do this exercise where all of us acting students were zipping around the acting studio like a bunch of hummingbirds. And then he would say pause, and we'd all stop. We just freeze and kind of hover wherever we were. And then our teacher said this: the greatest artists are those who are willing to contemplate their own mortality. There are not endless days spooling out in front of you. With this in mind, I want you to ask yourself, how do I want to live this life? On pause, and then off we'd go. So I've never forgotten that moment. And it was in a class that I had with a teacher named Mark Olsen, and I didn't understand it for a long time, but now I'm feeling like I'm starting to understand it.

[1:01:30] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:01:30] Susan Blackwell: So I wrote that piece, Lindabel, because I felt changed by being in the presence of End of Life, and it was a total ass rocker. It was a brain changer. It reminded me so much of that great metaphor that J.K. Rowling created in the Harry Potter books from the Pottermore website. Thestrals are those black skeletal bat-winged horses invisible to all who have never been truly touched by death. Being able to see Thestrals is a sign that the beholder has witnessed death and gained an emotional understanding of what death means. I have always thought that was an amazing spark that, um, Joe Rowling had with that thermal idea. I just love that metaphor so much. I don't know if you're a fan of those books or movies, but I was like, I just thought it was genius.

[1:02:20] Laura Camien: Incredible.

[1:02:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Um, because I do think if you have been in the presence of death or you have not been in the presence of death, you do have potentially a different, um, understanding of things.

[1:02:33] Laura Camien: I totally agree.

[1:02:35] Susan Blackwell: So then I ran into this book by Katie Butler, the aforementioned Katie Butler called The Art of Dying Well. She was the one who wrote all those words I just read about the Ars Moriendi. And she wrote them a long time ago, right?

[1:02:48] Laura Camien: No, this book just came out.

[1:02:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh. Yes. Katie Butler's book is a cornucopia of sparks, spark, sparks. There are sparks shooting out of this book in so many different directions. And so we're only going to scratch the surface. This book, and it is not a big book, is so well researched. It is so well written. It is so poetic while at the same time being so practical and so useful. And I cannot recommend it highly enough. The Art of Dying Well by Katie Butler.

[1:03:20] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:03:20] Susan Blackwell: So Katie's initial spark to write the book came when her dad at 79 had this devastating stroke. And then two years later, her father was given a pacemaker to correct a slow heartbeat. In her words, this tiny electronic device made him, as he put it, live too long by forcing his heart to outlive his brain. He spent the next six and a half years dependent on my exhausted mother, descending step by step into deafness, near blindness, dementia, and misery. Close to the end, my mother and I embarked on a modern rite of passage, asking his doctors to deactivate a medical technology capable of preventing his death without restoring him to a decent life. His doctors refused.

[1:04:09] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:04:10] Susan Blackwell: I have feelings too as somebody who is aging and also somebody who loves aging parents, like, and aging friends.

[1:04:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:04:20] Susan Blackwell: This book really made me reexamine all of it, all of it. It, uh, like I feel angry when this topic comes up because—

[1:04:27] Laura Camien: Are you mad at me now?

[1:04:36] Susan Blackwell: I'm so mad at you.

[1:04:38] Laura Camien: Um, we're not talking.

[1:04:38] Susan Blackwell: Um, I feel angry when this topic comes up because it's one of the most important, um, things, I think that you can consider, you know, the aspects of it that are within your control, yeah, and that we don't live in a world where we can have very much control of it. It feels frustrating.

[1:04:57] Laura Camien: Do you mean the current, like the medical treatment?

[1:05:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I think if you read this book, you're gonna feel like you have more control and agency than you may have thought previously.

[1:05:10] Laura Camien: Good.

[1:05:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, she, I can't quote her because I don't have the book sitting next to me. It's on my desk. Um, but she says, like, doctors are consultants, they are basically—she's sort of like just because they say, I recommend that you immediately begin radiation and chemo or have this thing implanted in you or whatever, that doesn't mean you have to do it. You have more choice than you think you have is what one of the many things that I took away from this book. She writes, there is a way to a peaceful, empowered human death, even in an era of high technology medicine. It begins long before the final panic trip to the emergency room. It requires navigating over years, not days. Um, I fucking love this book.

She went on to say, in the years I've spent listening to hundreds of people's stories of good and difficult declines and deaths, I've learned one thing. People who are willing to contemplate their aging, vulnerability, and mortality often live better lives in old age and illness and experience better deaths than those who don't. It's like my movement teacher said, I am coming to believe that artists and people who are willing to think and talk and make about these things might live better lives and experience better deaths than those who don't.

[1:06:31] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:06:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So, um, she then devotes a chapter to each stage of life from kind of where we—I'm gonna, I'll use myself—where I am now until you are actively dying. And she tees—it's so brilliant. The way that this book is organized is so good. She tees up each chapter so that you can easily identify where you are in life and what would be helpful for you to read at that life stage. But this book, I don't think is just for the oldies. I think there are sparks for everyone in there. And Katie Butler also reads the audiobook, which is so good.

[1:07:07] Laura Camien: Oh, nice.

[1:07:13] Susan Blackwell: Her reading of her own book is really good. I enjoy listening to you, Katie Butler. I'm sure you're not listening to this, but I would say that I am firmly—I'm gonna take you along for this ride too. You may hear my dogs barking in the background; that's not a metaphor, it's not my feet, my dogs are actually barking in the background.

[1:07:32] Laura Camien: (laughs)

[1:07:32] Susan Blackwell: So I would say that you and I are both firmly in chapter one, which is resilience. We both easily blew out the candles on my 50th birthday cake. We have aches and pains, but they're just annoying; they're not limiting. Um, it's harder for me to read the fine print on the back of credit cards. I sometimes sense that my time on earth is limited and precious. I still have the physical capacity to reverse substantial health problems. And then she provides some really straightforward action steps, things that require the most of the reader and the least of medicine, like walking energetically for 30 minutes every day, which I think is something you already do.

[1:08:12] Laura Camien: I try; I need to do that.

[1:08:15] Susan Blackwell: A big one, a big one, and this is a big one for both of us and for many people listening, is guarding your brain as it is the keystone of continued independence and freedom. And you know, Cammy, and how I love my freedom.

[1:08:29] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:08:30] Susan Blackwell: Um, and just really specific things you can do. Befriending the neighbors and younger people for a couple of reasons. Loneliness is a health risk, meaningful social engagement is great for the brain, and these folks can be of support, you know, we can all be of support to each other. So here's where I'm at right now. I am going to start kind of building a more conscious group of people who I want to invite into, like, social engagement and who want to be part of a support network. And it also reminded me of this spark that my friend Robert Frost gave me, Robert Frost, the musician, not the poet, um, the road less traveled. Uh, I am such a sequestered introvert. And he suggested that I host a kind of like a monthly open house or potluck so that anybody who's available to come and wants to come can come. And I just make like a big pot of chili or a big lasagna or a big pizza party. And, um, just to bolster that social engagement.

[1:09:35] Laura Camien: That is huge.

[1:09:36] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That is huge. But it makes—this is what I'm talking about—it makes life better now.

[1:09:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:09:41] Susan Blackwell: And nobody needs to know that I'm actually plotting how you all are gonna care for me in my dotage.

[1:09:46] Laura Camien: Anyway, um, we will all be there, don't you worry.

[1:09:51] Susan Blackwell: Will you?

[1:09:52] Laura Camien: Um, we also—we talk a lot about making that work we love with people we love. We talk about that a lot. This book has sparked my thoughts about—I and I have been dying. Terrible to talk to you about this, Cammy. This book has sparked my thoughts about creating a life and a future that we love and beginning to actively envision that now. So in our creative workshops, we encourage people's awareness that they can create something where nothing existed before. Like you can make a book, a musical, a quilt, a poem. But this book has expanded my thinking. I want to consciously begin building the next chapters of my life now. So I'm taking a long view, and, but I think there are ways to start doing that now.

[1:10:40] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:10:40] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:10:40] Susan Blackwell: So here are some sparks that I want to fan.

[1:10:44] Susan Blackwell: Some of these you're gonna be like, uh, dry. And some of these you're gonna be like, hooray, a pizza party. But, um, I want to create a durable power of attorney for health care. This is a legal instrument that appoints a medical decision maker to speak for me if I can't speak for myself. But Katie's really specific. She says the ideal person lives nearby, knows what matters to you, is willing to assert it, is willing to drop everything in an emergency, gets along with people, and has a strong backbone.

[1:11:12] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:11:13] Susan Blackwell: So that's real specific.

[1:11:14] Laura Camien: That's real specific.

[1:11:15] Susan Blackwell: And it starts to weed out.

[1:11:16] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:11:17] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[1:11:18] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:11:18] Susan Blackwell: Um, I want to make a living will, which is a document that covers moral and medical dilemmas that arise if you're comatose, close to death, or unlikely to recover. I think in my mind, when I was like, get your paperwork in order, I kind of just made them all one thing.

[1:11:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:35] Susan Blackwell: But there's different things you want to get in order. So with this living will, um, it sounds like they're pretty boilerplate, but you can amend yours to serve as a guide for your medical advocate in case you can't, uh, communicate with them.

[1:11:49] Laura Camien: Yep.

[1:11:49] Susan Blackwell: Something that I actually did was I got this slim little thingy. It's called Five Wishes. You can order them online from agingwithdignity.org. And you just fill in the blanks and circle. They make it so easy.

[1:12:06] Laura Camien: And you basically describe your vision of a good death. So it's stuff like I want to be kept fresh and clean at all times. I want my lips and mouth to be kept moist to stop dryness. I wish to be forgiven for times I have hurt my family. I wish that my memorial and serve my memorial service to include the following. Honestly, honestly, it took me like I put it off forever because I was like, uh, that thing's gonna be daunting. And when I finally cracked it open, it took me about 10 minutes to complete it because they've made it so easy. We had some friends over. I signed it, they witnessed it. It's tucked in my file cabinet. Um, I let my husband know where it is. Um, my sister and my mom know, and now you know too, Kay.

Oh my god. It's it's uh and listeners, you all know too. It's in the trap drawer of my desk filing cabinet. It's in a red folder, it's the only thing in a red folder, and it says ice in case of emergency. Okay. So that's where it is. Wow. I still need to get those other things in order though. Um, but the great thing about this book is it gives you very actionable ways to live well so that you can prepare to die well. But I actually think it's a list of sparks so that you can just live well. It's like it's yes, it's things like getting your paperwork in order and making your end of your wishes known, but it's also stuff like the aforementioned, getting 30 minutes of vigorous, pleasurable exercise every day, cultivating friendships with younger people, helping friends who are sick and finding ways to mentor and give.

Create a simple daily spiritual practice, including 30 minutes of quiet time and a gratitude list to feed your soul, which I do, but I could do more of. Yes. Um, consider making the contemplation of death a part of your spiritual practice, as do many wisdom traditions. It won't make you die any sooner, and it may help you appreciate your life today more keenly. I think that some people have bought into a story that if they meditate on end of life, that they're going to bring about their death. And I think it is a croc O.

[1:14:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I think it's great. It's come up a few times when we we're talking with people and we'll often ask, like, what do you need to do before you're done? Yeah. And it does sometimes hit a nerve of like, oh, if I say this, does that mean I'm I'm going to bring this about sooner?

[1:14:32] Laura Camien: Yeah. That's right.

[1:14:33] Susan Blackwell: They think it's a jinkies or something. And what I'm finding is weird. What I'm thinking about is how like people will oftentimes worry unnecessarily about things that have not happened yet or may not ever happen. And the feeling is if I worry about this, maybe I'll keep it at bay. And then when it comes to death, the reverse is true of like, uh, if I don't think about it, don't talk about it, don't plan for it. If I can't see it, it can't see me.

[1:15:02] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:15:03] Susan Blackwell: I can keep it at bay.

[1:15:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:05] Susan Blackwell: How fascinating.

[1:15:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:07] Susan Blackwell: Um, something that I found this is very specific, but I think it's really interesting and truly news you can use. There's a group of drugs known as, I'm gonna say this wrong, anti-cholinurgenics, anti-cholinurgenics. They're commonly prescribed, and in some over-the-counter medicines like Benadryl, um, they substantially increase the likelihood of developing dementia. I'm not a doctor, so please consult a real doctor, but I checked all my meds to make sure that I was full avoiding anti-cholinurgenics because they have such a tight link to dementia.

[1:15:45] Laura Camien: Whoa.

[1:15:45] Susan Blackwell: And Cam's, I would like you to do the same.

[1:15:47] Laura Camien: I'm gonna do the same. Thank you for that.

[1:15:50] Susan Blackwell: On a completely different tip, older people who've learned to treat other people decently, no matter what their social status will have an easier time navigating this drastic psychic reorganization when you're aging and you need to rely on people. So there's another spark and another practice. And it goes to my, you know, one of my favorite sayings in the world is no one is above me, no one is below me, haters to the left. I'm psyched because I'm living that way now. And I think it's a practice that will set me up as I age. I've seen people who like treat for just for instance, like treat waiters poorly. And I'm like, that look is not gonna be cute when you really need somebody to change your bedpan.

[1:16:31] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:16:32] Susan Blackwell: So like get it together.

[1:16:34] Laura Camien: Yep.

[1:16:34] Susan Blackwell: Um, but also I feel like that nobody's above me, nobody's a below me, haters to the left. Also, as you move through the world, you do have more meaningful social engagement. And I think that I'm not a researcher, but I think that probably increases your chance of having a community of people that would show up when you need support.

[1:16:53] Laura Camien: Absolutely, absolutely.

[1:16:56] Susan Blackwell: Um do you want to say was there something you want to say?

[1:16:59] Laura Camien: It's amazing.

[1:17:00] Susan Blackwell: I'm just taking it. Is it making you introspective?

[1:17:02] Laura Camien: I can see it on your face.

[1:17:03] Susan Blackwell: It is.

[1:17:04] Laura Camien: I'm thinking about my mom's death. I'm thinking about all the things I learned from that and the things that I've prepared for so far, and what else I need to do.

[1:17:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, it's all happening.

[1:17:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:17:14] Susan Blackwell: Which is it, which is exactly what sparks, spark, sparks book is for. Another spark in her book, Katie Butler recounts the work of an Israeli psychologist named Valerie Hasanov, who during his training at Columbia University learned much from the people he worked with in New York City nursing homes. Those who did best were creatures of habit. And this is from Katie's book. One 94-year-old woman whom he admired woke at 6 30 a.m. and first made her bed. Then she went for a stroll with her walker, ate breakfast, exercised in the rehab room, read, ate lunch, napped, went for another walk, drank tea with a friend, ate dinner, and went to bed. Her disciplined routines gave her life structure. She pushes herself to do things, some of which are very difficult for her without asking herself why it is important to do them. Hasanov wrote uh this in Vox.com. I think that is what keeps her alive. Her movement, her pushing is her life. Observing her, I have been coming to the conclusion that it might be true for all of us.

[1:18:18] Susan Blackwell: And this spark spoke to me for freelancers, for artists, for people who work from home, for those who create their own structure and those who aspire to be more engaged with their creativity. We have a saying around the spark file, and that is doing things means doing doing things. I guess it's more of a jingle than a saying. But you create that structure, you commit to it, you keep it up, you do the work. While creativity may contain magical elements within it, it is not magic. It's step by step, it's day by day. That is how things get made. Those are the foundations of a writing practice or a movement practice or a making practice or a living practice, just like that. Just like that 94 year old in that nursing home.

[1:19:03] Laura Camien: It's true.

[1:19:04] Susan Blackwell: I was so sparked by that. And I'm thinking now, like when we're just talking about puzzling and how it has a bit of a bad name, like it's a grandma thing. I think that routines have a bit of a bad name as well.

[1:19:17] Laura Camien: I think you're right.

[1:19:18] Susan Blackwell: Like, oh, if I'm creative, I'm just constantly like I'm responding to my feeling in the moment and the whims and the where the day takes me and the booze and the yeah, and all of that, obviously being in the moment, all of that is important as well. But um, but at the expense of what could be so good for you, routine to like show up every day at the same time.

[1:19:43] Laura Camien: And do it because you committed to doing it.

[1:19:45] Susan Blackwell: That's right. I I feel like we hear that again and again with um makers who are really uh really get a lot done. That's they are at the desk, they're at the easel, they are they are very disciplined about that.

[1:20:01] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:20:02] Susan Blackwell: Um, in addition to sharing very practical research and anecdotally supported advice about real nuts and bolts medical things, Katie Butler also addresses the human spirit. This is why I love this book. It's like here's how you get here's exactly the paperwork you need to get in order, here's how to do it. Here's here's what you need to do in terms of diet and exercise, um, or even like a spiritual practice. But so she talks in the book about people receiving terminal diagnoses and then asking how they want to live out the time that they have left. And I just thought, what if we became aware of our mortality now? And instead of that becoming scary or macabre, could that awareness be life affirming, like my acting teacher alluded to? What if my willingness to contemplate my own mortality brought me more life and more creativity?

[1:21:54] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:21:54] Susan Blackwell: So for example, um, they talk about people who are given a terminal diagnosis and then decide to go on an adventure or finish a big creative project that they've always wanted to make, or resolve an outstanding conflict, or to make amends with someone, or make sure that their loved ones are set up financially. And I just thought, while keeping my commitments to my loved ones and my work and my financial commitments, I just want to examine how I can do all of that stuff now. I don’t want to wait until somebody hands me the expiration date. Do you know what I mean?

[1:21:56] Laura Camien: Another spark related to this that I've been trying to rock actively in the world, in the words of John Mayer, is say what you need to say.

[1:22:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh, and say it now.

[1:22:07] Laura Camien: So I've been trying to actively tell people, small things and large, that I want them to know now. And I'm gonna give you an example. This is a this is this is on point for this spark.

[1:22:22] Susan Blackwell: Um, I had when I was after my divorce, when I was getting like my body back into shape and trying to get my life back into shape and trying to gain self-confidence again and maybe even one day start dating again. I had a trainer named Landon Jones, and I spent, I can't tell you, I would work out at like like 5 30 or 6 o'clock in the morning every day. And I was weightlifting for the first time in my life. I had never been older, and I was I had never exercised, uh, I never lifted weights. I'd never exercised harder. And I've just found this trainer that I loved named Landon Jones. And I spent a lot of time with him, real formative time, getting stronger, feeling healthier, and he was a real oh, he's a love and a guide for that.

[1:23:09] Laura Camien: Aww.

[1:23:09] Susan Blackwell: And a few months back, it's actually been about a year now, Landon was assisting somebody on the side of a very busy highway, and he was he was killed suddenly in a very strange accident.

[1:23:24] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[1:23:24] Susan Blackwell: And I was devastated. And when I got the news, I remember literally, it was like a movie, literally my knees buckling and having to sit down. And it was terrible, but a comfort that I take away from that is almost immediately I remembered that before he actually left the gym where we worked out before he had left. I had said, before you leave, because I don't know when I'm going to see you again, I need to say some things to you.

[1:23:55] Laura Camien: Oh wow.

[1:23:55] Susan Blackwell: And he sort of got very bashful and looked down, and I squared his shoulders so we were face to face, and I kind of lifted up his head so we were looking in each other's eyes, and I told him how much of a difference he had made in my life during a very, very challenging time. And I in his passing, I was comforted. I was truly comforted that past me had the wherewithal to take the time to have said what I needed to say to him. And that he hopefully knew and carried with him in his heart that I loved him and was so um that he had changed my life, that he had really changed my life as he had walked next to me through this as I trudged over to Forest Mountain. He had been hiking next to me, and I got to tell him that.

[1:24:47] Laura Camien: That's beautiful.

[1:24:47] Susan Blackwell: So that's a spark I'd like to share, which is why wait. Say what you need to say now.

[1:24:57] Laura Camien: Another spark, this is where you come in, KMs.

[1:25:00] Susan Blackwell: Another spark that I'm formulating is about creating a communal living situation as we get older. I don't have children, you don't have children. Many of our friends don't, but I do have this chosen family of close friends, and I'm just thinking, I'm just starting to think about let's pick a really cool, convenient neighborhood in a really cool, interesting city. I don't know where it's gonna be, maybe someplace warmer, maybe not. I don't know, Austin, Portland, I don't know. Some place that has great health care and walkable shops and restaurants and doctor's office. And let's find a great, either a single level house or an apartment building with a doorman and an elevator and great balconies, and let's live near each other and support each other and wipe each other's butts if necessary.

[1:25:51] Laura Camien: I was waiting for that.

[1:25:52] Susan Blackwell: I was waiting.

[1:25:53] Laura Camien: Is that where we're headed?

[1:25:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:25:55] Laura Camien: Um in her book, Katie refers to a TED talk given by an EMT named Matthew O'Reilly. Um, great TED talk, Matthew O'Reilly. In his work as an EMT, he has attended many people dying on the side of the highways after automobile accidents. And he says, most people have three pieces of unfinished business. And they are. They have regrets and they want to be forgiven. They fear they'll be forgotten and hope they'll be remembered, and they want to know that their lives had meaning.

[1:26:28] Susan Blackwell: And Katie goes on to say, ask yourself, what stands in the way right now of your dying in peace?

[1:26:35] Laura Camien: What do you regret? What do you fear? Do you feel that your life has meaning?

[1:26:42] Susan Blackwell: And Cam's has lost it. I really thought, like, okay, I'm gonna get through this conversation.

[1:26:50] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:26:51] Susan Blackwell: But that, yeah, that one got me. What is what's happened? What does it bring up for you?

[1:26:54] Laura Camien: Um, just one, I want to ask myself that question, of course, and clear up. They're good questions. Um, but I think about you know, everything from, you know, I'm just trying to matter that concept of you know, people having spent time on this earth and wanting to make sure that it was purposeful.

[1:27:19] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:27:20] Laura Camien: And um, I forget what I was watching recently where it was back in the old timey days, but the threat was we're gonna wipe out like all memory of you, all recollection, like your name being wiped from the history.

[1:27:35] Susan Blackwell: Was it Coco? Were you watching Coco?

[1:27:37] Laura Camien: Coco has it have that theme?

[1:27:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's beautiful.

[1:27:40] Laura Camien: So that theme, um, recently, it feels like it's come up a little bit. Um, and even at story we're talking, like someone, the last person to say your name.

[1:27:52] Susan Blackwell: Uh is that ring a bell?

[1:27:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:27:58] Susan Blackwell: Can you say more about it? So the people that weren't there?

[1:28:01] Laura Camien: Yes, yes. I was like, was that at story? I couldn't remember.

[1:28:04] Susan Blackwell: I think it was. Um, so there a person dies two deaths. One is when they actually die, and the second death is when the last time that someone says their name. This is very coco, the uh animated feature of Coco.

[1:28:19] Laura Camien: I've never seen it, but I need to.

[1:28:21] Susan Blackwell: Beautiful, it's a beautiful movie. And um Bobby and Kristen Anderson-Lopez uh get that Academy Award, and there are little Chihuahua dogs in it, which you know I love.

[1:28:30] Laura Camien: I mean, so it's got everything.

[1:28:31] Susan Blackwell: It's got it all. It's got everything dying Chihuahua dogs.

[1:28:34] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[1:28:36] Susan Blackwell: But that concept of being wiped from history, um, I think is painful to some who have this um fear of being forgotten.

[1:28:48] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:28:48] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, you got me with that.

[1:28:50] Laura Camien: I gotcha.

[1:28:51] Susan Blackwell: Well, let me say this. What if we can ask ourselves these questions and act on these answers well before we are nearing death? What if those answers are the our sparks for us to take action? Like action in our lives, action in our creative work, action on our personal and collaborative relationships, action in our fight for social justice, action in our service work.

[1:29:14] Laura Camien: I did go to church today.

[1:29:16] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:29:17] Laura Camien: So this is awesome. Here's more questions for you. I'm just peppering you with questions.

[1:29:21] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:29:22] Laura Camien: Ask yourself, listeners, Susan, Laura, what practicalities need to be addressed? Is there an area of your life you'd like to get in order? Do you have a story you'd like to tell? Do you have something you'd like to say? Do you have someone you'd like to thank? Do you have someone you'd like to forgive?

[1:29:42] Susan Blackwell: These are good questions.

[1:29:45] Laura Camien: Katie Butler talks about the work of a pioneering hospice doctor named Ira Bayak, who I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing that, who summed up uh the five emotional tasks to be completed near the end of life in these words. These these are amazing words. Please forgive me. I forgive you. Thank you. I love you. Goodbye.

[1:29:45] Susan Blackwell: And she's gone, Cam's.

[1:29:45] Laura Camien: I'm sorry.

[1:30:13] Susan Blackwell: It's good.

[1:30:14] Laura Camien: It's good.

[1:30:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh, here's one more for you. A hospice nurse named Red Wing Kesar is quoted as saying, people die as they lived.

[1:30:24] Laura Camien: I believe that.

[1:30:25] Susan Blackwell: I do believe people another thing that they said, Landon Jones used to say to me is the way you do something is the way you do everything. People die as they lived. And I I want to practice these things now so that when I'm nearing end of life, whether that's tonight or 40 years from tonight, I will have really made a practice of living creatively and cleanly and being kind to people in all areas of my life.

[1:30:55] Laura Camien: And built a community.

[1:30:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, cleaning as I go, um asking for forgiveness, forgiving people, making the things I want to make so that they're in the world, which also goes to legacy, right?

[1:31:07] Laura Camien: Um, another spark.

[1:31:09] Susan Blackwell: In the book, there's the story of this amazing woman named Loretta Downs. Her mother was dying in a nursing home in 2006. And Loretta got permission to transform an unused storage room into a private, sacred space, which she decorated with her mother's possessions.

[1:31:25] Laura Camien: There were flowers and pictures of her mom's cats like taped up on the wall. Friends and family came to share their memories. They brought food. Other residents of the nursing home stopped by to say goodbye.

[1:31:36] Susan Blackwell: Loretta Downs, this amazing woman, was an experienced hospice volunteer with a professional background in interior design. And she named the space she created the chrysalis room after the pupa that holds the caterpillar as it is transformed into a butterfly.

[1:31:52] Laura Camien: Cams is full-on sobbing into her kimono.

[1:31:56] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Full on sobbing. So she named it the Chrysalis room. And this room became a permanent and beloved feature of the nursing home where her mother passed, lived and died, and set into motion a cultural shift.

[1:32:11] Laura Camien: Before the room was arranged, nursing home staff feared death, and they sent most dying residents to the hospital. After the chrysalis room opened, more residents died in the place that had become their home rather than in the hospital.

[1:32:25] Susan Blackwell: Other residents became more likely to participate in the final goodbyes, and some became less fearful of their own deaths. Loretta Downs has since helped create chrysalis rooms in nursing homes in other places.

[1:32:37] Laura Camien: And she says, with a little imagination, almost any private space can be made more humane than a shared room.

[1:32:44] Susan Blackwell: Her website, Endoflifeinspirations.com, has information on how to improvise or build a chrysalis room. And I was like, what a beautiful spark of creativity that she wanted to, her website is really, I mean, you have to have seen a thestral or or be comfortable with being in the presence of death, I think, to explore some of these things.

[1:33:09] Laura Camien: I am.

[1:33:09] Susan Blackwell: I feel I mean, things still scare me, but I am, I don't know. I'm just into like being brave and talking about all of this super openly because I want to have from this moment to the end of my life be as um, I don't know, just as wonderful and as creative as possible, if that makes sense.

[1:33:34] Laura Camien: And at peace with this, like not have it be something that you've put in a compartment that you're trying not to look into.

[1:33:41] Susan Blackwell: I think about it every day. It is built into my meditation practice. If you do go and look at that piece that I wrote, Linda Bell, which is on my website, SusanBlackwell.com, you'll see that um I had a realization sitting at Hunter Bell's mom's uh bedside, which is I meditate for about an hour a day, and I had a realization meditating with uh holding Linda's hand while she was um on her deathbed.

[1:34:07] Laura Camien: And that is, I do believe that meditation is preparation for dying.

[1:34:14] Susan Blackwell: I really do believe it is. It's preparation to pass to a different dimension. So the book mentions, and then I took a deeper dive into this side spark called the Threshold Choir. Their motto is kindness made audible, which I love.

[1:34:32] Laura Camien: Um, it was started the threshold choir was started by a woman named Kate Munger who was volunteering with AIDS patients. And when Kate would get scared or nervous, she would start singing, and she watched her patients get calm and settled and serene when she sang.

[1:34:49] Susan Blackwell: Um, which I thought was so beautiful. It's like when you're walking through a forest and you get scared, you can sing to yourself. Or I always love that metaphor.

[1:34:57] Laura Camien: Um, in a video on the Threshold Choir's website, a hospice patient is interviewed, and he says how the threshold choir singing by his bedside helps relieve some of his physical pain and makes him smile.

[1:35:10] Susan Blackwell: The 36-year-old man in that video who is laying in the hospice bed with a brain tumor says, I believe that our purpose as human beings is to be givers however we can. We go through the hardships of life, we go through the beauty of life, we take all the energy and find a way to give and help others.

[1:35:29] Laura Camien: When they come to sing, it is an act of love and support, which is what I need most in my life right now.

[1:35:36] Susan Blackwell: And here I go. Um there's a lyric that I love in one of the songs by the Thresold Singers. The lyrics are a quote from Ram Das, and that quote is we are all just walking each other home.

[1:35:55] Laura Camien: I love it so much.

[1:35:57] Susan Blackwell: And it's what I titled my spark today. We are all just walking each other home.

[1:36:05] Laura Camien: So when I think about my future and uh, you know, end of life, I think. Is there a way that we can bring our lives closer to each other so that we can truly walk each other home?

[1:36:17] Susan Blackwell: And it actually sparked another spark in me. I took this big painting that I got at the thrift store, Cams, it's in my bedroom. It's that autumn scene. It's a great big canvas. And I've known that I've wanted to like paint something, like modify it, because I like modifying thrift store paintings.

[1:36:33] Laura Camien: And so what I've chosen to do is over the top of that autumn scene and these great big mod letters.

[1:36:41] Susan Blackwell: I want to paint. We are all just walking each other home.

[1:36:45] Laura Camien: Oh that or murder solves every problem.

[1:36:49] Susan Blackwell: I can't decide one or the other.

[1:36:52] Laura Camien: So I'm literally crying through my tears.

[1:36:56] Susan Blackwell: Crying through laughing through my tears. Um, so a little postscript. One of the subjects in Katie's book, who has been given a terminal diagnosis, says this.

[1:37:05] Laura Camien: I don't think about myself as dying.

[1:37:07] Susan Blackwell: I am living until proven otherwise, and I choose to live fully.

[1:37:11] Laura Camien: Katie Butler adds, you don't need a fatal diagnosis to live with this double awareness.

[1:37:17] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, we are talking about death, but I feel like Katie's whole book continually affirms life.

[1:37:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:37:25] Susan Blackwell: She called her book The Art of Dying Well, but I think it could have been easily titled The Art of Living Well.

[1:37:32] Laura Camien: And that is exactly what I plan to do with it.

[1:37:35] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes.

[1:37:37] Laura Camien: Thank you, Katie Butler.

[1:37:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thank you.

[1:37:42] Laura Camien: Just really a workout.

[1:37:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh boy.

[1:37:50] Laura Camien: Susan.

[1:37:50] Susan Blackwell: Anything else we need to say to the good people?

[1:37:53] Laura Camien: Good.

[1:37:54] Susan Blackwell: Good one. Thank you, Cam. I'm gonna get that book.

[1:37:57] Laura Camien: It's a I cannot recommend it highly enough.

[1:38:00] Susan Blackwell: And I was talking to a our friend Laura Youncin, who is nowhere near 50 years old. She's in her mid-30s, and she was like, I think I would I need that book now.

[1:38:12] Laura Camien: And I was like, there's no harm in it.

[1:38:15] Susan Blackwell: There's no there. I found it so life affirming. And it made me really just be like, get on it. Say what you need to say. Forgive who you need to forgive. Make what you need to make.

[1:38:26] Laura Camien: Spark, spark, sparks.

[1:38:28] Susan Blackwell: And I think even for people who might not think they're ready for it yet, their parents maybe.

[1:38:34] Laura Camien: I don't think you're re that's right.

[1:38:36] Susan Blackwell: And in that you could begin that conversation together with your parents.

[1:38:42] Laura Camien: And I plan to do exactly that.

[1:38:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:38:45] Laura Camien: Good point.

[1:38:45] Susan Blackwell: Really, really good point.

[1:38:47] Laura Camien: Aww.

[1:38:47] Susan Blackwell: That's it. We hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark that you'd like for us to explore, we'll do it.

[1:38:56] Laura Camien: If you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame, and people are starting to do that too.

[1:39:02] Susan Blackwell: Which is awesome.

[1:39:03] Laura Camien: Writing.

[1:39:04] Susan Blackwell: Somebody's writing a children's book.

[1:39:05] Laura Camien: I love it. Um, if you'd like to share that with us, email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, even better at thesparkfile.com.

[1:39:16] Susan Blackwell: We'll even take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[1:39:22] Laura Camien: Oh, you know what? I started to require and create, I I've started requiring price of admission for anybody who writes.

[1:39:27] Susan Blackwell: So if you have a question to ask us, if you have a mailbag for us, you still have to have a spark you still have to pay the to pay the toll.

[1:39:34] Laura Camien: And I'm totally into it because I love hearing what people, what brave creative risks people are taking.

[1:39:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:39:39] Laura Camien: Be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast.

[1:39:42] Susan Blackwell: Subscribe, rate, five-star review it.

[1:39:45] Laura Camien: If you liked this podcast, share it with people you love.

[1:39:48] Susan Blackwell: If you didn't like it, share it with your BFA roommate.

[1:39:51] Laura Camien: They are gonna love it.

[1:39:54] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:40:03] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:40:07] Susan Blackwell: You gotta walk it out. You gotta talk it out. You gotta Johan Sebastian bock it out.

[1:40:16] Laura Camien: You gotta take it and make it when I bump into something that inspires me.

[1:40:30] Susan Blackwell: I dump it in my spark files.

[1:40:34] Laura Camien: Skyfire could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:40:40] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in the spark files.

[1:40:45] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark file.

[1:40:49] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the sparkfire.