This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark five! To be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark style. Spark!

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide! Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:53] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Sparks File community, welcome back, Sparkler. If you're joining us for the first time, what? What? Welcome, new friend. Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:09] Susan Blackwell: But hold up a second. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:19] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out. But don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:37] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast. Or an intentionally cultivated healthy skepticism while maintaining an open heart full of wonder and possibilities.

[1:51] Laura Camien: That's a magic trick. Interesting.

[1:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:02] Laura Camien: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:06] Susan Blackwell: We do. So if something lights you up, please we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it. So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:19] Laura Camien: Hi, Susan Blackwell.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: Hi, how are you doing, Laura Camien?

[2:22] Laura Camien: I'm doing pretty good.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Pretty good.

[2:26] Laura Camien: I like to hear that. I feel good.

[2:29] Susan Blackwell: Um, I'm not sure when this podcast will post, but we're in the middle of sort of a whiteout blizzard right now.

[2:37] Laura Camien: A squall.

[2:37] Susan Blackwell: A bit of a squall. And um, it's crazy because today you and I sat down to prepare to lead our group, lead our creativity group.

[2:49] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: And I looked out the window and I was like, is there teeny tiny snowflakes in the air? And I was like, oh, look, teeny tiny snowflakes. And I sat down, and within I'm gonna say 45 minutes, I looked back out and it was fully blizzing out and collecting on the ground. I guess I hadn't looked at the weather.

[3:09] Laura Camien: Unbelievable.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: Weather talk.

[3:11] Laura Camien: It's weather talk. I was debating whether or not to say this, but you know what? I'll continue on with weather talk.

[3:16] Susan Blackwell: Uh huh.

[3:17] Laura Camien: We were in the middle of our class, and luckily I was on mute, and that emergency alert came on about the squall.

[3:24] Susan Blackwell: On your phone.

[3:25] Laura Camien: And on my phone, I shut it off.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:28] Laura Camien: And only moments later, literally the windows like flew open.

[3:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh, because they I mean, they're like doors. The windows are like doors.

[3:37] Laura Camien: So they like flew open, and it was like a crazy swirl of like instant snow and strong winds.

[3:45] Susan Blackwell: Did you run downstairs and shut the windows?

[3:47] Laura Camien: No, I stayed right here, watched it happen while I was in class, like pretending to not be distracted by anything.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[3:55] Laura Camien: But in actuality, I was like, wow, look at that. I really wanted to stare out the window for a bit.

[4:00] Susan Blackwell: But it didn't last long. It came and went super fast.

[4:03] Laura Camien: It was a squall.

[4:04] Susan Blackwell: It was a squall, as squalls do.

[4:07] Laura Camien: Squalls will squall.

[4:08] Susan Blackwell: Squalls gonna squall. Um, anything else going on? Any other excitements?

[4:11] Laura Camien: You know, we started our ignite group, and I have to say they have ignited my imagination and my excitement. It's really thrilling.

[4:24] Susan Blackwell: It's an eight-week program, and we're already two weeks into it, as we on the day that we record this. And I just am so fucking thrilled to be spending time with these incredible human beings and incredible creatives.

[4:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, they're pretty fantastic.

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: They're pretty fantastic. It lights me up.

[4:43] Laura Camien: Yeah. So yeah, that kind of stuff is going on. What's anything else going on with you?

[4:48] Susan Blackwell: You know, it's so funny. I'll be honest, like, you and I are creating some new things. We're trying some new things. And this week, for some reason, it kicked up some real fear and some anxiety about like, what if I fail? What if we fail?

[5:06] Laura Camien: And we had a great guest teacher last week who shared this amazing spark with the group. It's called a study, but it's like a 16-minute short film that these European artists made.

[5:24] Susan Blackwell: They paid people the equivalent of like $30 to real, just real people added the newspaper, paid them to come and climb the ladder on this 10-meter diving platform that like goes down into just like a normal swimming pool. And then they filmed the results. It's on the New York Times website. It's called 10 Meter Tower.

[5:47] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[5:47] Susan Blackwell: And it is one of the best depictions I've ever seen of standing at a creative crossroad. Well, just metaphorically speaking, standing at a crossroads and deciding whether you're going to take a leap, take a risk, or climb back down the ladder and kind of like take a safer route.

[6:07] Laura Camien: Now, there's sometimes when it's the right thing to do in the creative realm, it's the right thing to take the safer route. But I like to believe that if you habituate taking the constructive risk, if you habituate that throughout the course of your life, it really can change the trajectory of your creativity.

[6:25] Susan Blackwell: And I feel like this week I am standing on the 10-meter platform.

[6:30] Laura Camien: Oh, interesting.

[6:31] Susan Blackwell: This week. Yeah, this week for some reason it all just got really real for me. And I'm sort of processing through that.

[6:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[6:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh, you're doing great. And I agree, the metaphor of the creative risk, we would always say lean in. And I also am like that film was fascinating because when you factor in, and we've talked about this in certain groups, when you factor in a physical risk, like an actual physical risk.

[7:00] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[7:01] Susan Blackwell: Julianne Moore talked about that on this very podcast. When we asked about a creative risk she's taken recently, she was preparing to do that film where there was a lot of water in the film and she had to be in water. Now Julianne Moore is an actor who, like, I present you Boogie Nights. Like, this is an actor. I present you Short Cuts who just like will show herself. Creative risks, not a problem.

[7:27] Laura Camien: Yes.

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: She is a big wave rider when it comes to creative risks, but when it came to diving headfirst into water, she was like, that felt like a visceral risk.

[7:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I think it's important to know the difference. And I think it's important to know, like, you know, I think someone even brought it up. Like, there are times when not taking, so not diving off of the platform when everyone wants you to, but you know in your heart this is not the right thing for me to do. It's just as brave.

[7:56] Susan Blackwell: It's just as brave to go right down that ladder.

[8:01] Laura Camien: That's right. Needless to say, that short film brings up so many thoughts and feelings. And for all of us sensitive souls and empaths who are watching someone put their bodies through it, and we're all feeling this in our own bodies as well. It was a pretty incredible experience.

[8:21] Susan Blackwell: And then watching our group, there were less, but there were a few people who were like, I love that. Please just jump. It's exhilarating.

[8:32] Laura Camien: Yes. I love the free fall.

[8:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Come on. This is more painful to watch people struggle. Just jump off.

[8:40] Laura Camien: And I just found it so interesting. You know, it brings up for me like the pain of not doing something. And when it gets so great that you're just like, fuck it. I have to do this. Whatever the pain is that's going to transpire.

[8:55] Susan Blackwell: Who was it? Was it Maya Angelou who said like the pain of not blooming?

[8:56] Laura Camien: No, it's Anaïs Nin. It's and the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.

[9:08] Susan Blackwell: Is that what you're talking about?

[9:08] Laura Camien: That's it.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: Anaïs Nin.

[9:10] Laura Camien: Yeah. I love it. And I just think it's so true. And I so again, that little film. That little film.

[9:15] Susan Blackwell: So it's a great spark. It's called Ten Meter Tower. It's on the New York Times website. And uh the that quote by Anaïs Nin is uh yes, it's also a great spark.

[9:27] Laura Camien: And I will I just want to say to anybody who is listening or gives a shit, you know, we don't just talk about this stuff, we're also challenging ourselves to do it as well. And I am just really feeling it this week. I'm really feeling this visceral fear.

[9:46] Susan Blackwell: It's a heady, heady brew.

[9:49] Laura Camien: It's like a little combination of fear of failure, fear of success, honestly, fear of rejection. It's and some of it is like 15-year-old me, and some of it is the pain of working really hard on some like we've experienced as adults, like where you work really, really hard on something and it just it lives its life and it concludes maybe earlier than you wish, and I'm just processing through it so much right now and dreaming about it and working on it, and um, I'm excited to keep working on it and to get to sort of a uh, you know, I love a sense of freedom and expansiveness, and so that is what I aim to do.

[10:34] Susan Blackwell: Well, again, I say you are doing great, and the beauty of being in a partnership with Susan Blackwell is that there's gonna be transparency, there's gonna be honesty, there's gonna be communication, there's gonna be authenticity, and I appreciate it.

[10:52] Laura Camien: She sounds pretty great.

[10:54] Susan Blackwell: She sounds pretty great. I don't know who that girl is, but whenever she gets back, let me know.

[10:59] Laura Camien: Well, I appreciate your support. You've been an absolute dreamboat.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: Hey, ditto as I have just been writhing on the ground, metaphorically speaking.

[11:08] Laura Camien: No, you hide it well if that's what's happening, because it doesn't show.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: I only know that it's happening because, again, you're communicative about it, and you tell me that's what's happening on the inside.

[11:20] Laura Camien: And you know, that what's that other what's that? Um, what's that quote?

[11:24] Susan Blackwell: Okay, who smelt it, dealt it.

[11:27] Laura Camien: You smelt it, you dealt it. You know, that didn't come to mind.

[11:30] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm sorry. But if it's mentionable, it's manageable.

[11:34] Laura Camien: Fred Rogers.

[11:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and so you always mention, which makes it all manageable, which is really wonderful.

[11:42] Laura Camien: Oh.

[11:42] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Suze. Shall we spark?

[11:45] Laura Camien: That was our spark for the day. Thanks, everybody. Good episode. Bye.

[11:49] Susan Blackwell: I've got some stuff for you. Um, I wanted to ask you, um, yeah, I don't have to ask. You're someone who has spent a fair amount of time at Grand Central Station in New York or the bus terminal at Port Authority.

[12:02] Laura Camien: I sure have.

[12:03] Susan Blackwell: Am I right? Am I right, ladies?

[12:06] Laura Camien: I sure have.

[12:08] Susan Blackwell: Well, I am positive then. I am absolutely positive when I tell you this quick story, you're gonna say, Oh my god, me too. But I will tell you nonetheless, for our fair listeners.

[12:18] Laura Camien: So when I first moved to New York City in the 90s, yes, the turn of the century, the late 1900s, as the kids like to say.

[12:27] Susan Blackwell: In the late 1900s, when I arrived in New York, I was walking by Grand Central one day when someone came up to me and they were impeccably dressed. They were also in tears. They were embarrassed. They said they've lost their wallet. Some or someone had taken it. They didn't know.

[12:44] Laura Camien: Oh boy.

[12:44] Susan Blackwell: But they needed to get home and they just needed ticket fare to Connecticut. They could mail me back the $5 if I could just help them. And they seemed so reasonable. Like I thought, this could happen to me.

[12:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:56] Susan Blackwell: I mean, genuinely, you could lose your purchase in New York and be like, what am I gonna do? So I gave them five dollars.

[13:02] Laura Camien: Now I did feel less inclined to give them my address.

[13:06] Laura Camien: Yeah, no shit.

[13:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:07] Laura Camien: So I said, you know what, just keep it. I believe in good karma. And I left that day feeling like I don't know, it felt good that I had helped someone.

[13:16] Laura Camien: And years later, and if you know me, it's fucking astounding that I remember either one of these incidents, because there's just so much lost to my memory. But I remember this so crystal clear. Years later, I'm talking 10 or 15 years later, I'm walking by Grand Central Station again, and a person comes up to me perfectly dressed in tears, embarrassed, saying they had lost their wallet. And as they're talking, something in my brain just clicks into place.

[13:53] Laura Camien: I've heard this story before, and not just a similar story, this exact story, line for line, tear for tear. And all of a sudden, I look up at the person and I say, Hey, and they saw, they saw the very moment that recognition crossed my face and they took off running. They took off running.

[14:15] Laura Camien: And I was so pissed. It made me feel a little bit taken, but also a little bit like I'm kind of becoming a real New Yorker because I'm not so easily fooled.

[14:27] Susan Blackwell: Okay, can you say again?

[14:29] Laura Camien: It was 10 to 15 years between the two incidents.

[14:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[14:33] Laura Camien: I am telling you, it was years later.

[14:37] Susan Blackwell: Jesus.

[14:38] Laura Camien: Years later. And I was like, like what a weird memory to have been tucked away somewhere of all the things that I've experienced in my life, like a transaction that took place between me and a person 10 years before was super short.

[14:54] Susan Blackwell: I'm telling you, you don't see that kind of longevity at jobs anymore.

[14:58] Laura Camien: That is impressive that that person had had the same job for so long.

[15:03] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[15:04] Laura Camien: Or they cycled through, maybe they cycled through different gigs, if you will, different stories.

[15:10] Susan Blackwell: But they were back with this story. Other iterations of this kind of story include my boyfriend has just been in a car accident. I just need taxi money to get to the hospital.

[15:21] Laura Camien: That sort of like frantic.

[15:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[15:23] Laura Camien: And the whole con relies on our desire to be a good Samaritan.

[15:29] Susan Blackwell: Uh huh.

[15:29] Laura Camien: Like it hinges on the fact that one, I could imagine myself being in their position.

[15:34] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[15:35] Laura Camien: Meaning it's plausible that they're an innocent person with just a bit of a problem and a relatively small effort on my part would have a huge payoff for them. And that made me feel good. Like five dollars, I can spare that. And that means this person is gonna get home. There were no cell phones. This was pre-cell phone.

[15:54] Laura Camien: Um, so just being able to get themselves on a train back to Connecticut. It's a simple story. It's one that still goes on train stations everywhere.

[16:05] Susan Blackwell: Wow all day long.

[16:07] Laura Camien: Can I just say though, like getting yourself dressed? You said impeccably pulled together, and then whipping up that uh listen, I've been a professional actor for a long time. That's fucking that's a little bit of work.

[16:20] Susan Blackwell: The emotions that is work, yes.

[16:23] Laura Camien: The emotions and all day long and looking for the right people like to target and spacing it out so that you don't like the same person isn't sort of near you on the sidewalk.

[16:35] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[16:36] Laura Camien: I'm telling you, I will never forget the moment that I recognized it in my brain. My brain pulled that memory and that they recognized in my face when I go, hey, and they're off.

[16:50] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[16:51] Laura Camien: That's all they needed to hear. They knew what was happening inside of me. I mean, I'm sure they didn't know it was 10 years ago that they talked to me, but I knew when it was.

[17:00] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[17:01] Laura Camien: Again, I felt a little embarrassed, but I also felt a little bit, you know, like at a certain point of like, oh, well, now you can't fool me now, because you know, I've been in New York too long, and I uh I'm legit now. So none of that little shenanigans are gonna fly with me.

[17:18] Susan Blackwell: But at the time, I mean, the first time I fell for it, and it's a simple fucking con.

[17:24] Laura Camien: So, Suze, I don't know if you've been on Netflix lately, but I took a spin around the home page this week, and I have to say, it feels like con men and con women are really having a moment lately. Have you watched Inventing Anna or The Tinder Swindler?

[17:42] Susan Blackwell: I have watched neither.

[17:44] Laura Camien: I believe that I auditioned for Inventing Anna.

[17:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh, interesting.

[17:48] Laura Camien: I did not book it.

[17:49] Susan Blackwell: I did not book it.

[17:50] Laura Camien: Okay, okay.

[17:51] Susan Blackwell: Well, but I'm not mad about it. She's actually been in my Sparks file for a minute.

[17:56] Laura Camien: So I'm very, very excited about this.

[17:59] Susan Blackwell: Well, we'll touch on her a little bit, but I'm happy to talk even more about it. It's pretty fascinating.

[18:05] Laura Camien: But for those who are just tuning into the Cultural Zeitgeist, here's the scoop on these two stories. Inventing Anna is a series inspired by a true story, although they do take that playful tactic of saying all of this is true except the parts that aren't.

[18:20] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[18:21] Laura Camien: Yeah. And it's all about a woman who came this close to conning the biggest bankers in New York City into loaning her 40 million dollars.

[18:30] Susan Blackwell: Fuck.

[18:31] Laura Camien: She convinced all of New York society that she was a German heiress, that she had a huge trust fund. She lived in hotels, she tipped hundred dollar bills, she traveled extensively with friends when in reality she never had a dime.

[18:46] Laura Camien: She stole from Peter to pay Paul and managed to stay one step ahead. She had dreams of creating a new social club in New York, even more exclusive than Soho Club, and she only needed 40 million dollars to make her vision come true.

[19:02] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[19:03] Laura Camien: She had lawyers, designers, chefs, an elite squad of professionals on board, but she never paid them a dime.

[19:11] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[19:12] Laura Camien: Ultimately, she scammed friends out of tens of thousands of dollars and hotels out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And ultimately she went to jail for it.

[19:23] Susan Blackwell: Now, the Tinder Swindler is about, and this is a documentary.

[19:27] Laura Camien: Inventing Anna is a scripted show.

[19:29] Susan Blackwell: That's Shonda Rhimes, right?

[19:31] Laura Camien: Shonda Rhimes produced it.

[19:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:32] Laura Camien: And I'll talk a little bit more about that.

[19:34] Susan Blackwell: But Tinder Swindler is a documentary and it's about a man who went by Simon Laviv, claimed to be the son of a billionaire in the diamond business.

[19:42] Laura Camien: And he would connect with women on Tinder, date them, make them fall in love with him, and then ask for a small favor financially.

[19:51] Susan Blackwell: See, he had this whole story of his family business.

[19:54] Laura Camien: That he needed five dollars to get back to Connecticut.

[19:57] Susan Blackwell: Just five dollars train fare.

[20:00] Laura Camien: These are some big cons.

[20:02] Susan Blackwell: 40 million dollars is a lot of fucking money.

[20:06] Laura Camien: This guy they they think they have no idea how much but they think at least 10 million dollars from people.

[20:13] Susan Blackwell: Oh that's so many millions.

[20:14] Laura Camien: So many millions.

[20:15] Susan Blackwell: Holy shit.

[20:16] Laura Camien: So he had this whole story about his family business, the diamond business and he was always this is no joke, he traveled by private jet, Rolls-Royce, Lamborghinis stayed at five star hotels around the world and he really built this story up then he would let you in on the fact that he was in danger.

[20:38] Susan Blackwell: The diamond business is really dangerous.

[20:41] Laura Camien: And then he would use pictures like of his bodyguard being attacked and say like his enemies are coming for him.

[20:48] Susan Blackwell: Oh he can't use his credit cards now because his enemies will track his location that way you know he's in Madrid he's in Amsterdam he's in Munich could you send him some money or let him use your credit card.

[21:02] Laura Camien: But by this point, you're already in a serious relationship with him, or so you think.

[21:07] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[21:08] Laura Camien: For example, he had women like looking for apartments that so the intention was like, listen, we're moving in together. The budget for the apartment is $15,000 a month.

[21:17] Susan Blackwell: Go and look for them, find a place for us to live.

[21:20] Laura Camien: You're talking about marriage.

[21:22] Susan Blackwell: So it doesn't seem that unreasonable at first that he would turn to you.

[21:27] Laura Camien: And by then you're absolutely convinced he's got the money to pay you back. Because how the hell? Like you're in these five-star restaurants where he orders the entire menu.

[21:37] Susan Blackwell: Um, these five-star hotels, like it's amazing and very lush.

[21:43] Laura Camien: So to keep up with this lifestyle, he was spending like 25,000 every three to four days.

[21:43] Susan Blackwell: 25,000 every three to four days.

[21:57] Laura Camien: So imagine your new boyfriend. Like it starts with like, will you get this Amex card and let me use it?

[22:03] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great.

[22:04] Laura Camien: Three days later, that card is maxed out. I need you to get a loan.

[22:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh god.

[22:09] Laura Camien: I need you to bring me cash, bring me $25,000 cash, take a loan out, go meet him somewhere to give him the cash.

[22:17] Susan Blackwell: No.

[22:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh God, to be targeted like that.

[22:20] Laura Camien: You knew if you saw how he was living, he had to have multiple sources of money.

[22:26] Susan Blackwell: And sure enough, he was always swindling money from more than one woman.

[22:31] Laura Camien: It was like a Ponzi scheme. The money that you're loaning him is paying for him to whine and dine the next woman, who will eventually be paying for him to wine and dine the next woman, and so on and so on.

[22:42] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, it's so it seems exhausting.

[22:46] Laura Camien: So he eventually got caught and he got sent back to Israel, where he had fled many years ago because he was being charged with a fraud crime there.

[22:54] Susan Blackwell: One where he had written checks, like um company checks and defrauded a company.

[23:00] Laura Camien: So he finally like went back and had to pay for his crimes there. But many of the women that he stole from are still paying off the debt that he created for them.

[23:10] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, that makes me sick.

[23:12] Laura Camien: And we're talking like $250,000, $150,000.

[23:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[23:18] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[23:19] Susan Blackwell: Either they didn't have it and they took out loans, or they had some of it and they were saving for you know to buy their own apartment or something, but ended up giving it to him.

[23:28] Laura Camien: Oh my God. That sort of financial debt is crippling.

[23:33] Susan Blackwell: It's crippling.

[23:34] Laura Camien: It's so stressful.

[23:36] Susan Blackwell: It's so stressful to have like creditors.

[23:39] Laura Camien: That changed the course of your entire life.

[23:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, yeah.

[23:42] Laura Camien: And now you're also brokenhearted because these women describe this realization of like the man that I fell in love with isn't real.

[23:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh God.

[23:53] Laura Camien: But I still have a longing for this man. But he's like, he's literally into thin air because he wasn't there to begin with.

[24:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh, that's so sad.

[24:01] Laura Camien: So they're, you know, hearts broken and also in debt.

[24:07] Susan Blackwell: So it's super, super painful.

[24:09] Laura Camien: And Anna left friends that way too. She left friends, you know, tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

[24:16] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[24:16] Laura Camien: So Simon and Anna both got me thinking: is this a particularly good time for cons? Like, what's with all the con jobs lately?

[24:25] Susan Blackwell: Or what's with all the con games, the scams, the swindles, the flim flams, the grifts, the hustles, the tricks, the bamboozles lately.

[24:36] Laura Camien: A con by any other name is still a con.

[24:39] Susan Blackwell: And by the way, did you know con refers to confidence in this context?

[24:44] Laura Camien: Confidence game, confidence man.

[24:46] Susan Blackwell: Confidence game.

[24:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[24:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:48] Laura Camien: I think that I knew this recently, but long before, I think I thought for a long time it had to do with cons as in convicts.

[24:55] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[24:56] Laura Camien: But does not. It's the confidence game and the confidence man. There are names for the intended victims of confidence games, too. They are suckers, mugs, stooges, rubes, or gulls from the word gullible.

[25:09] Susan Blackwell: Others simply call them idiots or imbeciles, which is a real shame because the tendency to victim blame, I think is real, and it exists because none of us want to believe that we would fall prey to a con artist.

[25:23] Laura Camien: That's right.

[25:24] Susan Blackwell: But we'll get into more of that in a moment. In an article in The Atlantic by Rachel Monroe, I read this. Americans love a con man.

[25:33] Laura Camien: His blithe refusal to stick to one category or class, his constant self-reinvention, the confidence man, and yes, he is almost always a man, takes one of America's foundational myths.

[25:47] Susan Blackwell: You can be anything you want to be to its extreme.

[25:51] Laura Camien: The con man, the writer Lewis Hyde has argued, is one of America's unacknowledged founding fathers.

[25:59] Susan Blackwell: Con men thrive in times of upheaval.

[26:02] Laura Camien: Transition is the confidence game's greatest ally, Maria Konakova writes in The Confidence Game, an account of how swindlers manipulate human psychology.

[26:13] Susan Blackwell: There's nothing a con artist likes better than exploiting the sense of unease we feel when it appears that the world as we know it is about to change.

[26:22] Laura Camien: She goes on to underscore how cons thrive when we're in the midst of fast change.

[26:28] Susan Blackwell: Think the gold rush, the quote unquote westward expansion. Everyone's way of life was in upheaval. They thrived during wars, political change, and revolutions. Anytime the general population is feeling uncertain.

[26:44] Laura Camien: And the thing is, Maria Kanakova's book came out in 2016, and the world has only gotten more uneasy since then.

[26:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. I started thinking about this idea of con men thriving in times of upheaval. And I remember living in New York City on 9-11, 2001, and the uneasiness that followed for months, if not years. And slowly over time, I remember hearing stories of things that people did that I couldn't even conceive of. I heard about the companies that scammed people with opportunistic charities cropping up to support the families of 9-11 victims.

[27:23] Laura Camien: Oh God, God, that's dark.

[27:25] Susan Blackwell: I heard about men who would, you know, go to bars and claim to be firefighters because they wanted some of that hero glow to surround them.

[27:34] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[27:35] Susan Blackwell: Or even that people used the opportunity to disappear and fake their own death in order to escape their debts or the lives they were living or get the insurance money.

[27:46] Laura Camien: That's right. I mean, I'd never even considered those crimes before. Like those were things that were not in my brain. Maybe I was naive, or I just don't have what it takes to be a criminal mastermind, apparently, but I had literally never even thought of those things.

[28:02] Susan Blackwell: And now we're living through a pandemic. There are so many opportunities for people to make up stories that seem plausible. Like people moved back in with their parents.

[28:10] Laura Camien: That's true.

[28:12] Susan Blackwell: They moved to different states. They lost jobs. They quit jobs. All these things like really happened. So it's hard to fact check certain details. It's a time that is ripe with possibility. I'm slow but trainable. Even I can see there's opportunity for con games in this moment. So these periods of upheaval really prime people to be vulnerable to scams.

[28:36] Laura Camien: Here's a look back again from the Atlantic article. The first great era of the American scam artist, the period when the confidence man got his name began in the mid-19th century.

[28:48] Susan Blackwell: That's the mid-1800s.

[28:50] Laura Camien: Girl, I was like, so 1950?

[28:54] Susan Blackwell: Good lord. Mid-1800s. Okay, got it, got it, got it. The country was rapidly urbanizing. Previously far-flung places were newly linked by railroads. Americans were meeting more strangers than ever before. And thanks to a growing economy, they have more money than previous generations. All of those strangers, all of that cash resulted in an era powered by trust, one that Mark Twain satirized for its quote, unlimited reliance upon human promises.

[29:28] Laura Camien: And of course, we live in an age now, the age of the internet and social media. Are we meeting more strangers than ever?

[29:36] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. We live in the age of catfishing, identity theft, deep fake video, even 3D printers where almost anything can be created or recreated. In her book, The Confidence Game, Maria Kanakova lays out the tactics the con artist uses, even names the various components of a con.

[29:55] Laura Camien: Here's how Kanakova explains how even incredibly logical and skeptical people can be persuaded into believing a con.

[30:04] Susan Blackwell: This is complicated, so go with me. I'm excited because I'm sort of like, I hope this burrows in my mind and prevents me from ever being the mark of a.

[30:18] Laura Camien: She writes the confidence game starts with basic human psychology. From the artist's perspective, it's a question of identifying the victim, the put-up, who he is, what does he want, and how can I play on that desire to achieve what I want? It requires the creation of empathy and rapport, the play. An emotional foundation must be laid before any scheme is proposed, any game set in motion.

[30:48] Susan Blackwell: Only then does it move to logic and persuasion, the rope, the scheme, the evidence, and the way it will work to your benefit, the show of actual profits. And like a fly caught in a spider's web, the more we struggle, the less able to extricate ourselves we become.

[31:08] Laura Camien: That's the breakdown. So by the time things begin to look dicey, we tend to be so invested emotionally and often physically that we do most of the persuasion ourselves.

[31:24] Susan Blackwell: Even as things turn south, ascend, so that by the time we're completely fleeced, the touch, we don't know what hit us. The con artists may not even need to convince us to stay quiet, the blow off and fix. We're more likely than not to do so ourselves. We are, after all, the best deceivers of our own minds.

[31:49] Laura Camien: At each step of the game, con artists draw from a seemingly endless toolbox of ways to manipulate our belief. And as we become more committed with every step, we give them more psychological material to work with.

[32:05] Susan Blackwell: Damn, all of it is the use of psychology and the power of persuasion. They almost always have what psychologists refer to as dark personality traits. They're often narcissists and they lack, certainly, they lack empathy. Although they know full well how to use your empathy against you.

[32:29] Laura Camien: Wow.

[32:30] Susan Blackwell: They're able to swindle people out of their money without feeling any remorse or guilt. They have huge egos. They know how to boost your ego or appeal to your feelings of self-worth, upping everyone's competence. Thus the description and the name, the confidence game. There are millions of kinds of con games and scams, but they all fall into one of two categories: the short con and the long con.

[32:58] Laura Camien: So yours was the short con.

[33:00] Susan Blackwell: Mine was the short con.

[33:02] Laura Camien: But it sure started with the empathy piece, like it sure did.

[33:05] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, just like it's such a pattern amazing. So short cons typically happen in just one encounter. This might include, as you say, the train station ticket I told you about. Or other popular cons like the white van speaker scam, where supposedly extremely valuable goods are sold for a fraction of the price, usually from the back of a white van because they're overstock or the boss doesn't know I'm selling these, etc.

[33:34] Laura Camien: But really they're a cheap knockoff, and you won't discover that until after you've bought them.

[33:40] Susan Blackwell: Wow. Or a badger game, which is where they try to get a person in a compromising position and then take photos or videos, and those will be leaked unless you pay the blackmail money.

[33:52] Laura Camien: Jesus.

[33:53] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. The melon drop, where a person is carrying something very valuable. They get you to bump into them. They drop their item of value, and you feel terrible. You pay them money to make up for it. Of course, the item was never valuable in the first place. Like it was a fake bottle of wine, or it was a cheap pair of sunglasses that they've convinced you is Prada glasses or whatever.

[34:20] Laura Camien: Or even a classic pigeon drop. Pigeon drop is where two con men work together to get you to give up a certain amount of money because you think even more money is coming to you. An example of that is like, let's say you work at a gas station, a man comes out of the restroom and he has this pearl necklace in his hand. He's like, hey, I found this box, this beautiful pearl necklace. I think someone left it in the bathroom. And I'd love to, I'd love to get it back to the person. I just don't know what to do. The phone rings, you answer it. It's someone saying, Hey, I bought my wife a pearl necklace. I think I left it in the bathroom of the gas station. I want to offer a $200 reward if anyone finds it.

And you say, Well, this is great because it has been found, and you could give you could come in and give the $200, we'll get your necklace back to you. This is all working out. You hang up the phone, the person with the necklace says, Oh, I just I have a job interview. I don't think I can stick around. Why don't I give you the necklace? You just give me $100. And then when that guy comes in with $200, you can keep it. You give $100 to this person, they leave. And guess what? No one ever comes in to claim the necklace, which you now see is just a cheap old necklace, and the $200 never shows up.

[35:40] Laura Camien: So you just gave $100 out of the cash drawer.

[35:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it just seems like so much work on the part of the con artist. I'm just sort of like, but if you're a narcissist or a I don't know. Apparently, like just psychologically, they have a thing about like not working for the man.

[35:59] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:04] Susan Blackwell: And they take pride in gaming the system.

[36:09] Laura Camien: Wow.

[36:09] Susan Blackwell: So it, I mean, it is their job.

[36:11] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:11] Susan Blackwell: So those are short cons. There are many, many, many more short cons, but long cons take much more effort, like long periods of trust building and interaction, but then also much bigger payoffs. Both Anna Delvey and the Tinder swindler were long cons.

[36:34] Laura Camien: Another long con is a rip deal, where, for example, a con offers to buy some like substantial amount of your inventory, let's say you're a business owner. Um, and they're gonna buy, let's say you're jewelry owner, and they're you're they're gonna buy a whole bunch of it, but it also requires that you do something slightly ever so illegal, like cash under the table or something that deal goes off without a hitch great no problem we've established trust a little while later the con comes back with an even bigger deal you agree to it but this time they steal your goods through some sleight of hand and you're left with no money and no inventory but all because they took the time the first time to set up the trust and of course a very popular long con is the Ponzi scheme where people are lured into investment schemes where the profits of the early investors are paid by new more recent investors but there's really no profit at all it relies on new people coming in and giving their money.

[36:46] Susan Blackwell: Did you see the the Bernie Madoff film starring Robert De Niro?

[37:49] Laura Camien: I did I really I think that movie is very good.

[37:54] Susan Blackwell: It's also like I'm I uh am very impressed in that movie the woman who literally wrote a book she's a journalist who wrote the book about that whole Bernie Madoff scandal plays herself in the film.

[37:54] Laura Camien: Oh wow and she's really good.

[37:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh wow so she's the one when she goes to visit Bernie Madoff played by Robert De Niro in prison I was like who is this actor I've never seen this woman before and she's uh she's probably a little older than me so I was like this is a care if she was a character actor I would be aware of her yeah and I was like, who is she she? She's so realistic.

[38:36] Laura Camien: And it's because it's her.

[38:37] Susan Blackwell: She's her. She was just great. But that story. It is using creativity for the powers of dark and the complicated intelligence that it would take to establish an entire financial firm that sets on this foundation of a Ponzi scheme is bananas. I mean, both Anna and Simon in these movies, the intelligence is off the charts. Like there are fake wire transfers and fake receipts from fake companies and things that you're just like, someone had to make that.

[39:12] Susan Blackwell: They did.

[39:13] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[39:14] Susan Blackwell: Or someone on their team.

[39:15] Laura Camien: Wow.

[39:16] Susan Blackwell: Because Simon Simon did not act alone.

[39:20] Laura Camien: Oh wait till you wait till you watch it.

[39:24] Susan Blackwell: So, yes, of course, Bernie Madoff is the most famous, the most devastating Ponzi scheme in recent history. But interestingly, whether short or long, all scams are preying upon an emotional need of one kind or another.

[39:41] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[39:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna show you how. Here's a few examples. So there are like door-to-door and telephone swindles, such as like bogus home repairs that you don't need or credit card protection that you don't realize is already provided by the credit card company. These often prey on our fears of disaster happening to our home or physical well-being, and we just hope there's a way to protect us from future harm. So we buy in. Medical quackery is another type. Selling things that you do not need to solve a health issue or an ailment. The things they sell you are typically not harmful, but they are completely worthless. Maria Kanakova says from the first snake oil sale, the cons that play on our anxiety about our health have been among the leading scams of the world.

[40:34] Laura Camien: Wow.

[40:35] Susan Blackwell: They have everything needed for the fear-based play built into them. A health concern, real or not, followed by the relief of knowing that there's a remedy. Well, there's one of your COVID scams right there, I think.

[40:51] Laura Camien: Certainly, someone's made a lot of money off of some fake remedies.

[40:55] Susan Blackwell: COVID wipes.

[40:57] Laura Camien: COVID wipes. Okay. Spiritual bunkos, bunko's another name for a scam. I forgot to say earlier.

[41:04] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[41:04] Laura Camien: Spiritual bunkos can involve investment schemes led by people claiming to be ministers or religious leaders. And they, of course, prey on our worries about the afterlife.

[41:12] Susan Blackwell: Of course.

[41:17] Laura Camien: Or our spiritual well-being.

[41:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, if you just send me, if you just send me 100.

[41:23] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[41:24] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Tithing, send me 20% of everything. Pyramid schemes, Ponzi schemes prey on the idea of a major payoff for the victim. Something that seems too good to be true, like turning a hundred dollar investment into a million dollars. These are aspirational and appeal to grand visions for ourselves. And finally, romantic bunkos or the love con. The love con involves the use of seduction. These take time, but the emotional lure of love can draw people in. The idea of marriage proposals or long-term partnership can get people to part with their money. They prey on our desire for companionship and love.

[42:08] Laura Camien: Did the Tinder swindler, did he like have sex with these women when he was getting them?

[42:16] Susan Blackwell: Interestingly, there ends up being three women in the story, but at first there's only two. And one of them, yes, he slept with, and they became boyfriend, girlfriend. They were gonna move in together, true love. Another woman who seemed to have more of her own means financially, she flew to some exotic location to meet him. And she said, like he kind of made a move, and they both were like, uh, I think maybe we should just be friends. And they ended up being like actual friends, and he was like a really good friend to her. He would like send her videos, and almost like the attention you'd give a girlfriend, but they didn't have sex. But she would meet him and eventually another girlfriend, um, in exotic locations, like, let's go hang out on this yacht or let's go to Rome and and um I was just thinking, if if he did, and it sounds like in at least one instance he did imagine then that you discover not only are you in all of this debt and he is a ghost who is gone, but you're like, who was that person that I totally had sex with?

[43:26] Laura Camien: Well, spoiler alerts, can I tell you something else?

[43:30] Susan Blackwell: Yes, okay.

[43:32] Laura Camien: So one of the women that he scammed, she goes with him on a private jet when she's literally just first meeting him. And he says he has a daughter, and he's actually in whatever town this was, I forget where Amsterdam, let's say. And he has a daughter with a woman who is not his, they're not partners anymore. It's an ex. Um, but she's here in town, and they're gonna be on the flight with them as well. So here's this woman on her essentially her first date with this guy. This ex of his is there with their daughter. That woman was swindled by him as well, and no one we don't have an answer to this yet. No one knows, well, why the hell was she helping him with this swindle now when she knows what the hell he's up to?

The answer could only be that he agreed to continue to pay for the child or something, but it's fucked up. But that's what I'm talking about. Like yeah, like you said, you have to be wildly intelligent, but to keep all of these balls in the air and multiple grifts going at the same time.

[44:39] Susan Blackwell: Do you remember that scene in the grifters when one of the he's not one of the three central grifters, but one of those con men just starts to crack up and he's like like on all fours barking, like he's like losing his mind, and Annette Benning is just like pleading with him, like trying to calm him down.

[44:57] Laura Camien: It's just like together, yeah, like the brain broke.

[45:00] Susan Blackwell: Well, one interesting thing is that this guy Simon, he would use the same story and the same pictures, so like he would send pictures of his bodyguard with blood coming out of his head and say, We got attacked last night, my enemies are after me. I don't know what we're gonna do. Well, each of those women got the same set of pictures at different times, so he's almost like repeating the story over and over again.

[45:26] Laura Camien: Yes, so which helps, I'm sure, helps him keep it together, consistency, but it's just on repeat over and over again.

[45:34] Susan Blackwell: Wow, it's crazy. This is amazing. All con artists rely on their ability to establish trust. They rely on our human nature to believe what we wish was true rather than the reality right in front of us. As Kanakova says, ultimately, what a confidence artist sells is hope. Hope that you'll be happier, healthier, richer, loved, accepted, better looking, younger, smarter, but deeper, more fulfilled human being.

[46:04] Laura Camien: In the big con, arguably the seminal book on American con men, David Moore calls con artists the aristocrats of crime. The Atlantic article by Rachel Munro shares that the writer and critic Luke Sante once wrote that the best con artists possess a combination of superior intelligence, broad general knowledge, acting ability, resourcefulness, physical vigor, and improvisational skills that would have propelled them to the top of any profession.

[46:43] Susan Blackwell: On film, they're played with a spring in their step and a glint in their eye. Think Paul Newman in The Sting, Leonardo DiCaprio in Catch Me If You Can. Con Man looks good in a suit and is in on the joke. Humor is never very far from the heart of the con, wrote Slante. And who doesn't want to be in on the joke? Take it as a whole, the energy and charisma of con men can be very seductive. We want to believe they love us, or that they want to be our friend, or they want to be in business with us, and they build our trust quickly.

[47:18] Laura Camien: These are the tips.

[47:19] Susan Blackwell: These are the things you can look for, Suze. Give me some tips. The tricks that con men use to establish trust can vary, but here's a few. Thanks to an article in Reader's Digest. They get you talking a lot. And as you feel comfortable, you reveal information about your values and your religion, your politics, all of which they affirm and appear in agreement with you. And they will use this information in the con. They are very, very, very good listeners.

[47:53] Laura Camien: And Suze, it is always shocking to me how very much we all just want to be heard.

[48:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[48:01] Laura Camien: Yep. Never underestimate the power of that desire to be heard.

[48:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Con artists take advantage of that desire. They mimic your posture. These are those like super subtle mirror neurons activated, and your mind begins telling you that we have so much in common. And it activates feelings of empathy and belonging and literally allows the con artist to get closer into your physical space. They say your name.

[48:44] Laura Camien: So, like you, because you would probably look up and make eye contact when someone says Susan, so it's a little magic trick in and of itself.

[48:52] Susan Blackwell: Wow. They have social proof and they can call on their friends to let you see it. And if we see that someone else is doing it, we feel more trustworthy. Like in the case of the Tinder Swindler, like I said, on that first date, he had an entire entourage with him, including an ex-girlfriend, the mother of his child, and his daughter.

[49:14] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:15] Susan Blackwell: For Anna Delphi, the more that like the lawyers saw that she had the approval of these designers, and these designers saw she had the approval of these chefs. And on and on, like everyone jumped on board with their services and their sign-off of like approval of her just based on the fact that they saw her with someone else.

[49:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:38] Susan Blackwell: Con artists reveal their flaws because we are more likely to trust people who have revealed their imperfections. For so many of these women, the fact that the man revealed things that they wanted to help him fix.

[49:53] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[49:55] Susan Blackwell: They saw a vulnerable man who needed help, and it appeals to our empathetic side. They let you win at least for a little bit, or they like pay for things at first. This is classic. They let you win something. Maybe it's money, but it might also be affection or social standing. Like the women who hung out by Anna's side first got a taste of this high luxury life before Anna started asking them for help.

[50:21] Laura Camien: Yes.

[50:22] Susan Blackwell: Next, there is often a time limit. Like Simon, the Tinder swindler, on the first date, he says, I'm only in town till tomorrow. We're headed on a private jet right now. Do you want to come? It's disarming, and your defenses are down. You don't have time to overthink it or analyze it at all. They dress the part. Anna and Simon were both decked in luxury. So no one doubted they had the money. They were good for it. Other cons involve like military uniforms or Dr. scrubs because we immediately trust.

[51:02] Laura Camien: So those are some ways that they establish trust.

[51:05] Susan Blackwell: Here's the thing though, Laura, as you're talking. I'm like, if you take out the dark personality traits and you take out the con, I'm like, those are also the hallmarks of like positive relationships. Like again, pulling out those dark threads, it's sort of like you do look at somebody as a whole, you look at the people around them, you look at their ability to listen and connect.

[51:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:33] Susan Blackwell: And I'm just sort of like, oh boy.

[51:36] Laura Camien: And Suze, that's how it's done.

[51:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Like if I if I met Wes or you met Nathan under different circumstances, like you, we might be like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. All signs are there that he's he's a great listener. And he remembers things that I tell him, and he shows up when he says he's like, if they do, if a if a con man does the exact same thing, it is very hard to discern the difference.

[52:05] Laura Camien: It's just occurring to me now that within the last 24 hours in this house. I have said to Nathan or Nathan, I think I've said to Nathan, like, this is a long con.

[52:17] Susan Blackwell: We're playing the long like this is a long con. Um, just because it's like he he's so great. Like Nathan is just so great, and he does so much. And yes, you know, he just contributes like he's so much of his creativity, and he's just awesome in this house. And I'm just like this would be hilarious if he was doing all of this for some big payoff. I think I said this when he was like the floor, we're doing some some work on the house, and the floor was torn up, and he is like literally up to his waist in like just like dust and dirt, and I'm just like, You're grifted me, aren't you? This is the long game. This is the part where you're like really great and like fixing a house with your bare hands. When we flip this house, that's when the payoff comes, and I'm running, I'm taking the money and running. Oh my god. That's a whole lot of work. Oh my goodness. A whole lot of work.

[53:13] Laura Camien: Well, what is really interesting is that that combination of like, yes, con men look and behave a whole lot like the people we trust.

[53:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And then on top of that, we have a tendency to believe that we're too smart to be taken by a con artist. We're drawn into stories of people being conned, and our brain wants to sort out like what mistake they made in believing that person so that we can convince ourselves, oh see, I wouldn't have bought that line. Not for a minute. No way, I would have been out of there. Not this one. No, Surrey.

[53:49] Laura Camien: Yeah. But not so fast. Again, Conakova writes, everyone has heard the saying, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is, or it's close relative. There's no such thing as a free lunch. But when it comes to our own selves, we tend to latch onto that, probably. If it seems too good to be true, it is, unless it's happening to me. We deserve our good fortune. I deserve the big art break. I've worked in galleries all my life, and I had this coming. I deserve true love. I've been in bad relationships long enough. I deserve good returns on my money at long last. I've gotten quite the experience over the years. The mentalities of too good to be true and I deserve are unfortunately at odds, but we remain blind to the tension when it comes to our own actions and decisions.

[54:49] Susan Blackwell: When we see other people talking about their unbelievable deal or crazy good fortune, we realize at once that they've been taken for a sucker. But when it happens to us, well, I'm just lucky and deserving of a good turn.

[55:05] Laura Camien: She continues on. Who doesn't enjoy the illicit glimpse into the life of the underworld and the satisfaction of knowing that clever old you would be smarter than all that? That you can laugh at the poor sap who fell for something so obvious and still be safe in the knowledge that you are keener, savvier, more cynical, and skeptical. They may fall for it, but you never.

[55:35] Susan Blackwell: And yet, when it comes to the con, everyone is a potential victim. Despite our deep certainty in our own immunity, or rather, because of it, we all fall for it. That's the genius of the great confidence artists. They are truly artists, able to affect even the most discerning connoisseurs with their persuasive charm. A theoretical particle physicist or the CEO of a major Hollywood studio is no more exempt than an 80-year old Florida retiree who guilelessly signs away his retirement savings for a not to miss investment that never materializes.

[56:20] Laura Camien: All the same. And there are all those stories out there. It has happened to everyone of all shapes and sizes. Something that really fascinates me is that if we have been taken for a ride, when we're in the midst of it, there is also a tendency we have to double down. Once we've invested time into a person, there's a certain point where we cannot allow ourselves to have been wrong about this, this person or the situation.

[56:50] Susan Blackwell: Kanakova says the more and the longer we've invested in something, the more likely the sunk cost argument is to get the better of both of our reason and our perception. Once we're in the game, it's easiest to follow the path of least resistance. It justifies what we've already done and reduces the effort we need to make going forward. The deeper we get, the more difficult psychologically it becomes to extricate ourselves or to see that we're even in need of extrication. All of the factors are aligned against us.

[57:25] Laura Camien: So this is what I think it makes it so difficult. Like if we see a friend or a loved one who we think is being conned, you can't get them to see it. You just can't. It's so frustrating. And then even when the whole con is revealed, so often people don't report it because we have this tendency to blame the victim.

[57:52] Susan Blackwell: And for love cons, Suze, love cons in particular, we blame the woman. They get attacked for being so stupid. Only 15% of love cons are even reported.

[58:05] Laura Camien: Wow.

[58:05] Susan Blackwell: Because they're people are embarrassed. Yeah. And and the police often say, well, this isn't criminal. This is a civil case at best. Because how do I know you're not just a bitter ex-girlfriend?

[58:15] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[58:16] Susan Blackwell: I'm so surprised by how often that trope works in so many situations.

[58:21] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[58:22] Susan Blackwell: Our willingness to just believe that they're like, oh, crazy ex-girlfriend or bitter ex-girlfriend. Like, would you not be crazy if this man did this to you?

[58:32] Laura Camien: So a lot of people get away with these things because of there are nuances. Like even in the Anna Delvey case, they found her guilty of stealing from the hotels because she didn't pay them. But they found her not guilty of stealing from her friend Rachel when she put $67,000 on Rachel's credit card. Because it's really hard to prove technically. Rachel offered her card. She was just gonna, she thought the hotel was just gonna use it as a hold.

[59:01] Susan Blackwell: So the lines get really blurry, and it's not easy for the legal system to discern. When you think what has happened to Simon and Anna now, sometimes it feels like it may not even be worth it to try to convict them. They destroyed people's lives, but it's really a mixed bag regarding whether or not they will even pay the price for it.

[59:22] Laura Camien: On the one hand, Anna Delvey, real name Anna Sorokin, was sentenced to four to twelve years. She served four, and she was released. She immediately got back on Twitter and announced that she was back and looking for $72 million dollar loan for a new business venture.

[59:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. She had a few free weeks in Manhattan, but then she was taken into custody by ICE because she had outstayed her visa in the US.

[59:52] Laura Camien: Wow.

[59:53] Susan Blackwell: So she's back in custody now. But on the other hand, Simon is back in Israel living as a free man.

[1:00:00] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:00:01] Susan Blackwell: He was convicted of the original fraud from years ago and sentenced to 15 months in jail. He served only four months in prison for that old case. And now he's free. He's not been charged or served any time for any of the new cases, including the three women in the Tinder Swindler story. Since the show came out, more victims have come forward. He has an online class that you can pay for.

[1:00:27] Laura Camien: Um, he'll teach you the ins and outs of personal and business success.

[1:00:32] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. I'm so curious to know what he's teaching there since he's not ever had like a real job.

[1:00:37] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:00:39] Susan Blackwell: I think it's probably like an education scam.

[1:00:41] Laura Camien: It's probably an education scam, or it's teaching other people how to do how to scam.

[1:00:46] Susan Blackwell: Fuck. But all the reports are he's living large again. In fact, he just signed with an agency in Hollywood and is reportedly planning to launch a dating show on TV.

[1:00:55] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:00:57] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[1:00:58] Laura Camien: Although Tinder has banned him from their site.

[1:01:01] Susan Blackwell: So there's that. He's not going to be back on Tinder.

[1:01:03] Laura Camien: Also, I just need to say the Tinder Tinder swindler. Wes and I laughed our butts off. We just sat around making up other names. The farmer's only fraudster or the bumble bamboozler.

[1:01:18] Susan Blackwell: So we just wrote What's next in the series?

[1:01:20] Laura Camien: Next.

[1:01:21] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of all this? First of all, there's so many stories of famous cons. I can't even begin.

[1:01:26] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:01:29] Susan Blackwell: There's even, I didn't touch on this because I know we're running long on this spark anyway, but there are female, famous female con artists in history that no one's ever heard of.

[1:01:40] Laura Camien: And that's a juicy role to play.

[1:01:43] Susan Blackwell: Just because smart, savvy, charismatic, as all con men are. I did learn that there is a woman named Doris Payne, a notorious jewel thief. She's gonna be portrayed by Tessa Thompson in an upcoming movie.

[1:01:58] Laura Camien: Oh.

[1:01:58] Susan Blackwell: Which is gonna be interesting.

[1:02:00] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:02:00] Susan Blackwell: And I read a little bit that Tessa had pursued her and her story because she's like, I want to tell this story. But then I also learned about Janine De Lamotte, who apparently was a noble woman in France and a thief. She orchestrated a diamond necklace affair, which was one of several scandals that some people claim led to the French Revolution and helped destroy a monarchy.

[1:02:24] Laura Camien: Shit.

[1:02:25] Susan Blackwell: Look her up. I want to hear that story. There's a novelist named Clifford Irving who wrote a completely made-up autobiography of reclusive billionaire Howard Hughes, claiming that Howard Hughes sat down with him and told him his story. And I just think like this is that's an interesting concept that you could create a character as a con character who creates then a made-up biography of anyone.

[1:02:51] Laura Camien: Jeez.

[1:02:51] Susan Blackwell: Like what I just think that's an interesting way into a story. And again, none of it needs to be true because your con man made this all up.

[1:02:59] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:03:00] Susan Blackwell: So, anyway, so many interesting angles to explore. Also, wanted to note that both of these projects, inventing Anna and The Tinder Swindler were based on articles, literal journalism. The inventing Anna series was spawned by an article in New York magazine. And the journalist who wrote the piece is a main character in the story, played by an actor, but you know, not played by themselves, played by an actor, but it's kind of a story about investigating a story. It's scripted, and as we said, it's produced by Shonda Rhimes. And then the Tinder Swindler is a documentary, so it's obviously unscripted, but the journalists who track down Simon are a big part of the story.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: And now I hear that there may be a movie.

[1:03:44] Susan Blackwell: They may do a movie version of it as well.

[1:03:47] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:03:48] Susan Blackwell: So if you're looking for sparks of inspiration, ripped from the headlines, y'all. Just reading the news can inspire. Also, I always look at the side characters. Who are these other people that make the main character's story possible? What's their story? Who were Simon's bodyguard and Simon's business partner, for example.

[1:04:10] Laura Camien: Oh.

[1:04:11] Susan Blackwell: I'm always interested in the story from the perspective of like the hangers on or the people in the shadows. I want to know who they are and could there be a way into the story from that direction.

[1:04:24] Laura Camien: Nice.

[1:04:24] Susan Blackwell: I think we can always take a deeper awareness of how the very skills that we often use in the creation of art can be used for the powers of good, as we always talk about at the Sparks File. Please use your powers. And they are considerable powers. Our sensitive souls, our empathy, our acting abilities, our mirror neurons, our improvisational skills. These can all be used for the powers of good or the powers of evil.

[1:04:54] Laura Camien: So let us continue to celebrate the use of these powers to make the world a better place.

[1:04:59] Susan Blackwell: I want to leave you with these thoughts. Unless do you have some things?

[1:05:02] Laura Camien: What do we make of it?

[1:05:03] Susan Blackwell: Well, what do we make of it? Like, I'm just sitting here thinking about like all the things that have been made of this. It is such rich creative fodder. It's one of the reasons it's also been in my Sparks file for a while.

[1:05:14] Susan Blackwell: I'm so glad you did the Sparks. But like, catch me if you can, just from that. Like, so we're talking book, movie, Broadway musical, and what a story. We just watched that film for the first time, probably about a month ago.

[1:05:29] Laura Camien: Really?

[1:05:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so it's kind of fresh in my mind.

[1:05:32] Laura Camien: Awesome.

[1:05:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I was just like, the fucking balls and the intelligence that you would have to possess in order to do it is just amazing. There's a few other what do we make of it that I just love. An acquaintance of mine took a hand in producing a documentary called The Woman Who Wasn't There. Which is an amazing doc. I don't want to spoil her because it's just a really remarkable documentary about a 9-11 survivor. I'll just say that.

[1:06:04] Laura Camien: Yes, okay.

[1:06:05] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Uh, and I believe that is on Amazon. And I think also about like the scams and the cons that if you have ever worked in an office, if you've ever been a receptionist at an office, like the calls that come in just scams, scam calls all day long.

[1:06:24] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:06:25] Susan Blackwell: Like a big one is they call, and I remember like training receptionists and assistants and just being like, if anybody ever calls and says, Oh, hey, it's so and so from the copier leasing company. Can you just, we're just organizing our files? Can you just real quick give us the serial number off the back of your copy machine? We just want to make sure we have it right. And if you give it to them, they will send you supplies and bill you for them. Like send you supplies and bills, and then like make your life a living hell. So just training people to be very vigilant on the phone to not fall prey to these cons. And just not answer dutifully.

[1:07:03] Laura Camien: I was on the line, like I was like fully knowing better. And at the outset of the call, this woman called, selling something. And I was like, I just want to make sure you are a representative of this official company, and you're not selling this product because I know that this is a scam.

[1:07:23] Susan Blackwell: And they were like, I assure you, I'm a representative of this official company, and this is not the thing that you just said. I understand that thing is that is a mess. And no, we're not doing that. I got deep, I'm gonna say I was on this phone call for like 45 minutes to an hour, working through like, here's here's the information you need, like fully, fully going like going there with this woman. And then she was like, Okay, so here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna give you a confirmation number. You're gonna hear some clicks, and then we're gonna be on with like a third party who's gonna verify blah blah blah. And I said, Hold on a second. I put her on cold, I called the official company, the number I had for the official company, and I talked to a representative and I said, Here's a confirmation number.

Can you tell me if this tracks through to our account? And they were like, That's not a confirmation number we would issue, it's not enough digits. And I got back on the phone with them and I was like, This is a complete con. You are a liar. You are lying. You are trying to con me, and I'm gonna hang up the phone now. I hung up the phone. I was so angry.

[1:08:31] Laura Camien: Oh my god, I would be enraged.

[1:08:33] Susan Blackwell: I hung up the phone, she called back.

[1:08:35] Laura Camien: Oh, you are kidding.

[1:08:37] Susan Blackwell: And she was like, We are closing this deal. And I was like, We are not closing this deal. And it was it was crazy. Like she started fighting with me. She was like, I have had this mark on the line for 45 minutes to an hour, and I'm not letting go. And I was like, sister, not today. Not today, Satan. The jig is up. The jig is up. Not today, Satan. Not today. But I gotta tell you, I couldn't look her in the eyes. I was on the phone with her. But I was totally like, You're from this company, this official company, and this is not the scam that I am aware of. And she was like, I assure you, I am from the official company, it is not a scam. Just straight up lying. Scams.

[1:09:16] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:09:17] Susan Blackwell: Anyway. Scams are everywhere.

[1:09:19] Laura Camien: They're everywhere.

[1:09:20] Susan Blackwell: Everywhere. I was just thinking, even um, when you open like an LLC, and then things arrive in the mail that look official that say, for $39.95, you'll be listed in this directory. You should, you know, do so now. Um, a plaque for you know, just establishing your LLC. And you're just like, the amount of time it takes to discern, oh, this isn't this isn't real, and no one's asking me to be listed in this directory, but then try to make it sound like now that you have an LLC, you need to do this. Like, I don't think it is.

[1:09:59] Laura Camien: There's there's one more. I don't know when we'll circle back to this spark, and this has been in my Sparks file for a minute. So I just want to draw attention to the story of Malachi Love Robinson, who, as a teenager, posed as a medical doctor, rented office space. And I think Malachi really just really wanted to be a doctor and fully like announced the opening of this new medical practice. Like this whole had had an investor, was interviewed on the news. Like it was just crazy.

[1:10:39] Susan Blackwell: Did he get shut down or did he actually serve people?

[1:10:42] Laura Camien: I think there was a little bit of serving, but if I remember correctly, and I haven't looked at the story super recently, but um I don't think he was doing like Pap smears. I think it was sort of like a temperature and uh like a little like let's do your weight and your temperature. But that's seriously terrifying.

[1:11:01] Susan Blackwell: I heard a great story about a uh a repeat scammer this week that's also in my spark file. I I'm obsessed with con people. This is a long-running spark for me. Because you are right, they exhibit the characteristics that we like in a person.

[1:11:18] Laura Camien: Yeah, these are real things that we genuinely like, and then you've got to find that one little thing that made a flag go off in your brain. That's like, wait a second, something's not right about this. I just was listening to a great story about a repeat, sort of a repeat offender con man who posed as a doctor and was a time and time and time again put in positions of leadership in medical practices. And it wasn't the final takedown, but one of the times they went to prison was because they had misdiagnosed someone and sent them on their way with like vertigo medication. One person died, the other person they did a safety check and found them like on the floor getting ready to die because they had this this doctor had completely missed.

This is a nightmare to me. Like medical and even like um I have read about those uh like plastic surgeons who are not actual plastic surgeons and the things oh my god. And I just think it's the cruelest, yeah, the cruelest to gain someone's trust in that fashion that they've put their health in your hands. Uh anyway, I could go on and on.

[1:12:32] Laura Camien: Also, isn't Dirty John, I've not read that, but isn't that about there's so Dirty John, I think was in the realm of love. And then there's Dr. Death, who's more in the realm of um a medical doctor who just was he had his degree, like he actually did have his medical degree, but was transferred from facility to facility and was just really terrible and really damaged a lot of people's lives. I just think that's horrifying.

[1:13:02] Susan Blackwell: But Dirty John is like, um, is he a guy who posed as like he said he was in the military, he had some PTSD. Is that is it am I thinking of the right story or no?

[1:13:13] Laura Camien: It's been too long. I can't say I can't fact check yet. I I feel like it might be because I read about another guy who uh preyed on women on um ourtime.com, which is like middle middle age love for middle-aged people, and so oftentimes it was like divorced women or recently divorced women, and he preyed on multiple women at one time and had the whole like military uniform. So he would claimed he was in the military, and then always had to be brought to the hospital for different like he he claimed that he had PTSD or something that needed to be treated at sort of random time. So he would ask one of them to be like, You gotta take me. Will you take me to like the emergency room? Just drop me off. And they drop her, drop him off, and then he'd call his other girlfriend and say, Hey, I just finished up at the emergency room. I'm feeling fine now. Would you you want to pick me up? And so that was his whole way of like bouncing between ladies.

[1:14:14] Susan Blackwell: God, it is very sparky to me.

[1:14:17] Laura Camien: It's super super sparky.

[1:14:20] Susan Blackwell: It really is. I I just think it's um it's such a fine line. Again, I think it keeps I keep going back to are you gonna use these skills to make the world a better place? Are you gonna use these skills to harm other human beings?

[1:14:37] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:14:38] Susan Blackwell: So I want to leave you with these thoughts again from Maria Kanakova. Khan artists at their best and worst give us meaning. We fall for them because it would make our lives better if the reality they propose were indeed true. Yeah, they give us a sense of purpose, of value, of direction. Cons aren't about money or about love, they're about our beliefs. We live in a world of wonder, not a world of uncertainty and negativity. That in the end is the true power of belief. It gives us hope. If we are endlessly skeptical, endlessly miserly with our trust, endlessly unwilling to accept the possibilities of the world, we despair. To live a good life, we must almost by definition be open to belief of one form or another. And that is why the confidence game is both the oldest there is and the last one that will still be standing when all other professions have faded away.

[1:15:45] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:15:46] Susan Blackwell: Here's my word to the wise. Keep your hearts open, friends, but keep your eyes open too.

[1:15:53] Laura Camien: Nice.

[1:15:54] Susan Blackwell: There you go. I just remembered one more. What do we make of it? The Spanish Prisoner, the David Mamet film, The Spanish Prisoner. Yes, and the Spanish prisoner is a whole con. It's a whole type of con. I've I've rewatched that movie recently. And it does look a little dated, even the format of the way that the film is made, it looks a little dated. But I still really, really enjoy that movie. There's so many good ones.

[1:16:19] Laura Camien: There's so many good ones.

[1:16:20] Susan Blackwell: Anyway, so many good ones. We gotta land the spark, Laura Camien.

[1:16:23] Laura Camien: Yes, keep your heart open, but keep your eyes open too.

[1:16:26] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And that's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. You know what? We'll even take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you got to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:16:58] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at The Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really helps swindle other listeners into finding us. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, can I interest you in some swampland in beautiful Florida?

[1:17:18] Susan Blackwell: I'll take it.

[1:17:19] Laura Camien: That old con.

[1:17:20] Susan Blackwell: That old con. If something lights you up and gets your creative juices flowing or your sparks flying, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know you gotta take it and make it. Keep your hearts open and your eyes open wider.

[1:17:45] Laura Camien: Woo!

[1:17:46] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files. Could be something that I wanna take or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark files. I jump into my spark files. Let's open up the spark files.