This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: The Sparks File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Laura Camien: Please use your discretion.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark.

[0:23] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:26] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:45] Laura Camien: And I'm Laura Camien. If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkly. If you're joining us for the first time, know that all are welcome here. Whether you have put your creativity on pause during this time or you've clung to it like a lifeline, welcome. But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are such good questions.

[1:06] Susan Blackwell: And we actually do have answers.

[1:08] Laura Camien: We do. A Sparkfile is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. Here's the deal. We are makers who make all kinds of things. If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now. But don't despair. We are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity. Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast. Or an intentional practice of bestowing our attention on worthy subjects. Or a different way of thinking about time to increase ease and creativity.

[1:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I like it. Every episode, we're gonna also I was gonna burp there. So every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too. And if you're not careful, you might just change your life. So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:20] Laura Camien: Blackwell. Hi, I'm so happy to see you. Slash hear you slash podcast with you. Should we say to people we're using this Zencaster now with the video component?

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: It's very exciting because we have done many where we only hear each other's voices, but now I get to see your pretty face. Drink it in. It's nice. Did everyone just take that pause to just picture Susan's pretty face? Um what's going on?

[2:50] Laura Camien: I well, we've both been working all day long. This recording session comes at the end of a day that has already contained so much talking.

[2:53] Susan Blackwell: So much.

[2:59] Laura Camien: So much talking. Let's have more talking.

[3:03] Susan Blackwell: So much talking. Let's talk some more. But you know what? As always, this becomes my dessert.

[3:10] Laura Camien: I know. Whenever we do it, do we do it on a Sunday morning? Do we do it on a Saturday night? Whenever we do it, I'm always Friday morning at 7 a.m.

[3:15] Susan Blackwell: Friday morning at 7 a.m. Then it's my pre-dersert. But I just love it. It makes me happy.

[3:24] Laura Camien: It is a delight.

[3:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:27] Laura Camien: Me too. Me too. Any news to report or shall we just dive in?

[3:30] Susan Blackwell: I say we dive into these sparks.

[3:32] Laura Camien: There mine's a little meaty.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: All right. Mine's mine is meaty too. I think we should go for it. Let's do this.

[3:39] Laura Camien: Okay, we're gonna have a full meal tonight, folks. Suze a few weeks ago, I think it was a couple weeks ago, I did a spark where I mentioned that phenomenon that many of us experience of like not being able to slow down despite our desire to.

[3:54] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[3:55] Laura Camien: And if you recall, I talked about Brene Brown's theory that our addiction to busyness is a numbing strategy, and it can keep us from feeling the feelings or pursuing the dreams that we're too afraid to pursue. As she put it, we are a culture of people who've bought into the idea that if we stay busy enough, the truth of our lives won't catch up with us.

[4:20] Susan Blackwell: Can I just jump in here and say I think once again we have accidentally crafted perfect companion sparks unwittingly?

[4:29] Laura Camien: No way.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: Or we're about to do the same spark to each other and back at each other, but one or the other. Um, I'm so stoked. I'm I'm interested.

[4:41] Laura Camien: Well, this is my jumping off place, so we'll see where we go from here. I I but they might relate. We'll see. We'll check out. Love this.

[4:51] Susan Blackwell: Okay, I'm excited. So I was still thinking about that. Um, and that, and that I guess that addiction and the numbing, etc. And come to find out, I learned that as much as we might think that this is a modern problem, as far as we can tell, this idea has been around for centuries.

[5:15] Laura Camien: Really?

[5:16] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Let me tell you a couple examples. In 1877, Robert Lewis Stevenson called busyness a quote, symptom of deficient vitality and observed, quote, a sort of dead alive, hackney-eyed people about who are scarcely conscious of living except in the exercise of some conventional occupation.

[5:44] Laura Camien: And even Seneca, the Roman philosopher, Suze, who was born in the year four BC.

[5:44] Susan Blackwell: Four BC.

[5:55] Laura Camien: He wrote in his book on the shortness of life, look back in memory and consider how many have robbed you of life when you were not aware of what you were losing. How much was taken up in useless sorrow, in foolish joy, in greedy desire, in the allurements of society, how little of yourself was left to you. You will perceive that you are dying before your season.

[6:23] Susan Blackwell: So I became aware of this, the fact that this busyness is not a new phenomenon last summer, a few months into the pandemic, when I picked up a book called How to Do Nothing, Resisting the Attention Economy by Jenny Odell. And to be honest, Suze, I might have mentioned this to you even back then. When it was first recommended to me, I thought, yeah, yeah, of course. Like I need to slow down. I know. I know I've certainly been called to work all.

[6:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes. But I kind of wondered, uh, okay, is this a book about like how to make fewer to do lists and how to breathe and be more zen? And I have a few of those books on my bookshelf already. And honestly, like I get the concept, but it always felt a little oversimplified, to be honest. And I think I felt a little silly, frankly, reading a book telling me how to just sit and be with myself.

[7:22] Laura Camien: But in retrospect, I don't think those books are really oversimplified. I just think they're antiquated because while the addiction to busyness has been around for apparently all of human civilization, we have become more conscious of the connection between our busyness and the power structures at play in our modern lives. Who has benefited from our overworking? Who benefits when our value as humans is determined only by our productivity? How many times have we heard as artists the question are you gonna make any money from that? Like, can you make a living from that?

[8:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Because our culture does not value taking time for thought, reflection, connection to nature, art itself, unless a profit can be made from it by you or someone else.

[8:15] Laura Camien: So Jenny O'Dell writes solitude, observation, and simple conviviality should be recognized not only as an end in and of themselves, but inalienable rights belonging to anyone lucky enough to be alive.

[8:33] Susan Blackwell: Damn right. I found myself thinking, like, yeah, I'm gonna structure my life so that I have quiet downtime, creative time, time for transcendent thought.

[8:44] Laura Camien: Well, how's it going, Cabs?

[8:49] Susan Blackwell: So good.

[8:50] Laura Camien: So good.

[8:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh God. The pull to make more money or to prove our value is very, very strong.

[9:01] Laura Camien: It's very strong.

[9:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. In fact, the forces at play that are intentionally working to pull our attention away from ourselves are greater than they ever have been in human history. And the stakes have never been higher. That might sound dramatic, but trust me, it's true.

[9:20] Laura Camien: In chapter one of How to Do Nothing, which by the way turned out to be nothing at all about being Zen. Jenny Odell describes the irony that a book called How to Do Nothing is really an action plan. She says a simple refusal motivates my argument. Refusal to believe that the present time and place and the people who are here with us are somehow not enough.

[10:16] Susan Blackwell: She's very clear that the nothing she she proposes doing is only nothing from the point of view of capitalist productivity. She's not suggesting that we drop out completely of capitalist society. She says the point of doing nothing as I define it isn't to return to work refreshed and ready to be more productive, but rather to question what we currently perceive as productive.

[10:45] Laura Camien: She's advocating that we become more aware of where we put our attention. Yes, we can and should make money, no harm in making lots of money, but making money is not the only reason we exist. We exist to live, to dream, to create, to connect, to observe, to marvel, to wonder, to feel. And many of those things do not generate income, but they are still valuable and worthy of our time on this earth.

[11:19] Susan Blackwell: This might not come as a surprise to you, Seuss, but at the risk of revealing even more of my dorkiness. Like maybe, you know, I might fantasize about what it was like to live in the 1700s or the 1800s.

[11:40] Laura Camien: Of course you do.

[11:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. I do. I do. Total nerve has heard this podcast before. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we know. But when I fantasize that like people were reading books, being out in nature and drawing or painting what they saw, they would learn a musical instrument and play for their family members in the evening because that is the only way you were going to hear music in your lifetime.

[12:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:10] Susan Blackwell: You might read aloud to each other as a family. There was no passive like watching of TV. There were ways to engage your brain and engage with each other. And as I've mentioned before, there was a point during this pandemic where my stress was through the roof. I was working nonstop, and despite that, I did the unthinkable. I insisted on an hour a day to go for a long walk.

[12:37] Laura Camien: And I truly believe it saved my life. I think I've mentioned that. Like I listened to books and podcasts. I walked for miles just viewing grass and trees and water and picking wild flowers to press in your picking looking for Mr. Darcy over the next hill.

[12:58] Susan Blackwell: Um I did, though. I just walked and walked. And I made to be honest, I made sure I wasn't listening to anything that was related to work. It was not related to self-improvement. It was not related to anything except where I wanted my mind to wander.

[13:18] Laura Camien: Remind me, I think you've said this before, but what were you listening to?

[13:23] Susan Blackwell: I listened to this whole series of like um Sherlock Holmes from a female point of view.

[13:30] Laura Camien: That's right.

[13:31] Susan Blackwell: It was like these like complex murder mysteries solved by this delightful woman in you know late 1800s. And I I mean, it was so truly like totally outside of this realm of what's happening in this world right now. And then, like when I was working, or if Wes and I did a puzzle together, we'd add classical music. And I'm so not an expert on anything. Like I know, like I'm familiar with some classical music songs, and I'm like, oh, that's pretty. Oh, I know this one. But I don't like beyond that, I didn't study it in any way.

[14:13] Laura Camien: Totally.

[14:14] Susan Blackwell: But when we're listening to it, or when I have it on when I'm working, I can literally feel my brain working in a different way and engaging in a different way. I feel my body relaxing.

[14:24] ⚠ About 5 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[19:09] Susan Blackwell: Well, there's many reasons why that's challenging, but the biggest reason is something I hope we're all aware of by now, and that is that the cards are stacked against us.

[19:21] Laura Camien: No one profits from us taking a walk in nature and becoming better observers.

[19:27] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[19:28] Laura Camien: No one makes money off of a long conversation between two friends.

[19:34] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[19:35] Laura Camien: If you haven't yet watched the social dilemma documentary on Netflix, the social dilemma.

[19:42] Susan Blackwell: Can I just tell you, I'm afraid to watch this?

[19:44] Laura Camien: I haven't watched it.

[19:45] Susan Blackwell: And it's because I'm, I'm just afraid I'm going to throw my cell phone in the toilet.

[19:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:54] Laura Camien: Well, yeah.

[19:56] Susan Blackwell: It's definitely, it definitely does make you want to go off grid.

[20:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:03] Susan Blackwell: I feel that way.

[20:05] Laura Camien: And what's interesting, again, I won't get into this in this spark, but this phenomenon that we all feel now of like, let me just check out, let me buy 10 acres somewhere or a hundred acres or whatever.

[20:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[20:21] Laura Camien: And check out that.

[20:23] Susan Blackwell: She catalogs the history of that desire over decades from um like the 60s, the communes and the um the people who were like, let's go make a utopia, let's make um an environment.

[20:39] Laura Camien: And that's a fascinating chapter in and of itself.

[20:42] Susan Blackwell: But the social dilemma, this documentary, this film explores the ways in which technology and social media are becoming more addictive by design every year.

[20:55] Laura Camien: They interview many of the designers themselves from Google, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube.

[21:02] Susan Blackwell: Every one of them admits that the entire system is designed to capture our attention so that they can sell it to advertisers.

[21:11] Laura Camien: Oh, and that's the attention economy.

[21:14] Susan Blackwell: Our attention is the product that they are selling.

[21:20] Laura Camien: And I just want to I want you to think about that for a moment.

[21:24] Susan Blackwell: When you are watching an ad on YouTube, you think that the product is what's being sold.

[21:32] Laura Camien: Incorrect.

[21:33] Susan Blackwell: Your attention is being sold to a company.

[21:38] Laura Camien: A company is willing to spend X number of dollars to get your attention, but someone else is getting that money, not you.

[21:47] Susan Blackwell: The social media companies are selling your attention to the highest bidder, literally.

[21:53] Laura Camien: The company that will pay the highest price for your attention is the company whose ad will run right before your eyes on your video screen.

[22:03] Susan Blackwell: I really hope that that concept sinks in for everyone listening. Your attention has so much value that companies are in bidding wars for it. And we're giving it away for free. And many times we're giving it away mindlessly, just in robotic reactionary mode. I mean, our like what chapter one of this book changed my life because I was like, oh my God. My attention is one of the most valuable things I have. And I have not been conscious of where I've been putting it. I just have like spent far too much time just allowing it to just go where it goes. The one thing that they say in the documentary is one of the things is if you're not paying for the product, then you are the product.

[23:05] Laura Camien: So if you've ever wondered why you can enjoy all the benefits of social media, like what Facebook is free, Twitter is free, Instagram is free. Well, that is why. A professor who was interviewed for the film named Shoshana Zuboff coined the phrase surveillance capitalism to name the system that profits from the selling of personal data gathered from the monitoring of the internet. The former executive of Twitter, Jeff Seibert explains in the documentary. Suze, brace yourself. I know it's not gonna, I know you've heard this before, but the former executive of Twitter tells us this. Every single action you take is carefully monitored and recorded. Exactly what image you stop and look at for how long you look at it, all of it is recorded.

The artificial intelligence takes notes of every single thing you like, dislike, it tracks the info, and specifically continues to provide you with similar content so that it will keep your attention, so that it will keep your attention.

[24:24] Susan Blackwell: So everything that you liked for a political candidate or a concept or an idea, it will keep sending you similar information over and over again to keep you engaged. And the movie explains how YouTube is designed to draw you into a rabbit hole, no matter what it takes, and it will feed you darker and darker videos to keep you on the platform. Perhaps we'll do another spark on that one alone.

[24:52] Laura Camien: What do you mean by darker and darker?

[24:54] Susan Blackwell: These conspiracy theories that are out are happening now. Like it might have started, uh, you might have watched a video about the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. And then it feeds you a um information on some of the groups that might have um been there. And then it feeds you uh information on one of the theories that that group is working on. Um, you know, everything from the, you know, like the pizzagate type of theories, the pedophilia theories, the yeah. So whatever your particular rabbit hole is, it's serving things up that are maybe like stickier and the way that they're sticking.

[25:37] Laura Camien: Yes, tell me if I'm wrong. The way that they're stickier is that they're more salacious or they're more um we just recently watched Bombshell about like that whole scandal at Fox.

[25:49] Susan Blackwell: What happened at Fox, yeah.

[25:50] Laura Camien: Yeah. And they did that thing where they were like titillate and then scare and then titillate and then scare and titillate and then scare.

[25:59] Susan Blackwell: Is it that sort of formula?

[26:00] Laura Camien: That's exactly it.

[26:01] Susan Blackwell: Got it. Okay, and so when I say darker and darker, I think you're right. It's like more seductive and um just one step further, just one step further, down whatever hole it is. You know what I mean? And I don't mean this just on the right or the left, it's whatever hole, because all they care about is keeping you on the platform.

[26:25] Laura Camien: And one of the designers from YouTube left the documentary with this piece of advice. They were like, what advice would you give? And he said, never, never, never click on suggested video from YouTube. Never do it. Always choose intentionally what you are looking for, find it, view it, and then get off. Or really, you know, he's like, do not just don't click on the suggested videos. Do not engage with the AI. Do not engage with the AI. It's its purpose is only, it's just one purpose.

[27:06] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, this suffice to say, all of it is intentional. So if you are, I don't know, if you're just ever feeling like, God, I don't know why, just spent two hours scrolling. What just happened? It's intentional. That is not um, it's not you, it's not your willpower, it's not uh flaw in that you just lost time somehow. It's intentional. This documentary encourages people to limit their screen time. They suggest that you uh turn off notifications and have the awareness of how like how it all works, because then you can start to understand that nothing is showing up by chance.

[27:56] Laura Camien: The ads are there for a reason, the video suggestions are there for a reason, and if they could, they would keep you online and on their platform 24 hours a day. Think of it. They would make so much money off of this black mirror and your attention.

[28:11] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, it's so scary, and when you think about, like, of course, again, looking out at the deer in your beautiful yard makes no one any profit. It only brings perhaps a peaceful moment of connection between you and nature. But no one is going to encourage you to be spending your time that way because they can't profit from it. So you have to be first conscious of it, and then we have to demand that that is how we spend our time anyway.

[28:49] Susan Blackwell: So both the movie, The Social Dilemma, and the book How to Do Nothing, point out that the very people who created these platforms severely limit their own children's use of technology because they know. Because they know. Many of them have expressed great regret about having designed certain things like the pull to refresh on Twitter or the like button on Facebook, but they're now powerless to do anything about it. So again, I go back to how to do nothing. We do have the power to determine where we put our attention, and we can learn how to use our attention in powerful ways. Pauline was classically trained, teaching at UC San Diego in the 1970s. She began developing participatory group techniques such as performances where people listened and improvised responses to each other and the ambient sound environment as a way of working with sound that could bring some inner peace to people who at the time were struggling during the Vietnam War.

She talked about deep listening as one of her techniques. Pauline said to hear is the physical means that enables perception. To listen is to give attention to what is perceived both acoustically and psychologically. The goal and the reward of deep listening was a heightened sense of receptivity and a reversal of our usual cultural training, which teaches us to quickly analyze and judge more than simply observe. Odell is a bird watcher, and she tells a funny story about how she had been bird watching for a while, but she really thinks it should be called bird listening, or better yet, bird noticing, because what this practice has in common with deep listening is that observing birds really requires you to quite literally do nothing.

You can't really look for birds. The most you can do is walk quietly and wait until you hear something and then stand motionless under a tree, using your animal senses to figure out where and what it is. Odell says, with effort, we can become attuned to things, able to pick up and then hopefully differentiate finer and finer frequencies each time.

[31:32] Laura Camien: Suze, did you see the article this week that came out about humans having way more than five senses?

[31:38] Susan Blackwell: No.

[31:39] Laura Camien: I was so exhilarated by this. Because I think we talked about this idea on the episode where we talked about the documentary My Octopus Teacher. And I'm so fascinated with the idea that we have more senses than we're aware of. And it is true. This article came out this week in the British Psychological Society, and it describes a bunch more senses. And I'm just going to name a few. But here are a few senses we have. Proprioception, proprioception, which is how we can sense our body parts in space. Like if you close your eyes and you put your left arm out, you know exactly where in space your arm is. That's proprioception. And we have vestibular senses, which give us a sense of the direction of gravity, like which way is up.

So when you're in an elevator or on a roller coaster, you have a sense of which way is up. Light detection, we have senses that help us to subconsciously understand the passing of time due to changes in light that we're not even thinking about. Temperature, we have receptors in our skin that register temperatures and warmth sensors that can help us feel less lonely and literally feel warmer towards other people. That we have, we need to stop and do nothing. We need to allow ourselves to observe what is happening around us and what is happening within us. We have to take back our attention. Which leads me to Julia Cameron's The Listening Path, the creative art of attention. Have you dug into this yet, Suze?

[33:44] Susan Blackwell: No.

[33:44] Laura Camien: Tell me more. Suze. Listen. I'm not done with it yet. So I may circle back and do another spark on that. But most people are, most creative people are familiar with Julia Cameron's The Artist Way. And of course, like since that book was published 30 years ago, she's written more than 40 books since then. But The Listening Path is her latest. And of course, I was drawn to it because of my newfound passion for regaining control over my own attention. Yes. Like I said, I think this is good. This spark will be a spark. I mean, this book will be a spark all its own. But the overall idea is that it is a six-week journey, much like The Artist Way. I think that's a 12-week journey. But this is a six-week journey.

And Cameron leads us through listening on six levels. Listening to the environment, listening to others, listening to a higher self, listening to what she calls behind the veil, beyond the veil, which is two loved ones who have died. Listening to heroes we wish we'd met. And finally, listening to silence. In an article in the Financial Times, Julia Cameron says, I think that when we listen, we actually are tuning into a higher part of ourselves. And on WBUR, she said, listening is how we build intimate connections with each other across our differences. Deeper listening will lead us to more informed choices. Reach within. Reach within. You're going to discover a greater level of strength, courage, compassion, and bravery than you may have felt you ever had.

[35:44] Susan Blackwell: So, Seuss, what do we make of all of this?

[35:49] Laura Camien: Well, number one.

[35:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[35:51] Laura Camien: Number one. You go.

[35:53] Susan Blackwell: I think I need to just like nut up and watch The Social Dilemma. And again, it brings me back to this thing where I'm like, I just want to get social media out of my life.

[36:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:09] Susan Blackwell: Unfortunately, of course, by design, they've made it so we need it to a degree in terms of like.

[36:17] Laura Camien: It's funny, like for business and stuff like that. I was reading a different book this past week, and it was a business book, because you know, we like to read some business books. And they were saying like, don't mess with it. Like, don't mess with social media. You don't need this, you don't need it. And if you are doing good work, your calendar will be full of business. And I was like, I'm interested in that experiment.

[36:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Wow. Uh-huh.

[36:50] Laura Camien: All right. Well, I don't know. I wouldn't cry, but I was leaning more towards, you know, I mean, I wouldn't say neither of us use it extensively, let's be honest. You can see on our page, but we do try to keep people informed of the big news. And, you know, as of late, we've been trying to share out our client success stories. Cause that's probably the biggest thing that I'm most excited about sharing on social would be like, you know, yeah, what our clients are doing and how they're succeeding. So like I like that, but I'm also like, let me not spend more, you know, than 15 to 30 minutes on this thing each day. And yeah, that's how I feel about that.

[37:41] Susan Blackwell: I think the biggest takeaways for me are just this knowledge that we are each in control of our attention. It's entirely in our power to make a more conscious practice of choosing who or what we give our attention to. So I might sit around fantasizing about how people lived in the 1800s, and wouldn't it be great to like listen to classical music and read aloud? Well, shit, why don't I turn on classical music more often and sit and listen to it and or read out loud? Like that's entirely up to me to do it. The reason it's never like pulling at me is because again, it's not part of the structure system where someone has something to gain from it. No one has anything to gain from me putting turning my phone off, turning the TV off, and me just listening to a record that my dad bought, you know, 60 years ago.

[38:44] Laura Camien: Right.

[38:44] Susan Blackwell: So, you know, just kind of understanding like those things are connected. Those things are connected. So I say we make a habit of giving our attention to those people and those practices that make us feel good, that bring us joy. And we make a habit of giving our attention to the activities that expand our feeling of being alive, of being present, of being truly connected to other human beings and this planet Earth we live on. And dare I say we deny giving our attention to those things that are not serving us. Choose when we give our attention to corporations and know that it is their privilege to have it. Yes, I'll give you 30 minutes of my time, and that is it. Let us live with intention. Mary Oliver said to pay attention.

That is our endless and proper work. Maharashi Mahesh Yogi said, whatever we put our attention on will grow stronger in our life. Jose Ortega said, tell me to what you pay attention, and I will tell you who you are. And let's not forget the popular saying where attention goes, energy flows. So let's make a commitment to ourselves to become more conscious of where we gift our energy and get it flowing in the right direction.

[40:18] Laura Camien: That is, that is a hell of a spark. We have to, you know, we're not gonna have it on mic. We're not gonna have this discussion on mic, but I think that you and I need to have a serious discussion about where we do want to give our attention and where we don't.

[40:38] Laura Camien: And it might mean making or doing a scary experiment that we're sort of like, oh, cross our fingers. We don't know how this is gonna go. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, Suze, I'd love to have that conversation.

[40:54] Susan Blackwell: I am too. I think we spend so much, we're also well trained, both of us in having been in corporate or and or administration slash, you know, office work. I think we're also well trained to be like, you must respond to everything that crosses your desk. Why? Why I remember you telling me, and it might have even been on the podcast, you telling me that you felt this imperative to refresh your Instagram timeline and make sure that you were completely caught up.

[41:25] Laura Camien: And then you were done.

[41:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it was the news feed because I have Apple News. And sometimes I'll sometimes like that is um more, I'll go to that more than social media. Sometimes social media, I'll be honest, sometimes it makes me just feel bad. And so I'll do like maybe I'll be reading LinkedIn or I'll be reading um the news feed. And the news feed does the same thing. You know, it's like what Megan Michael wore is as important as you know what's happening at the border. And they're just gonna keep throwing things at me to make sure I just stay and like, well, let me just, you know, let me just read just one more thing about Brad Pitt, just real quick. And oh yeah, and then I'll go ahead and and catch up on what's happening with Harvey Weinstein. You know, it's just like, what?

[42:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, is this? Fuck this shit. It makes me, you know what? It's sort of like I feel so played.

[42:23] Susan Blackwell: I do. I feel played by it. And it makes me very, very oppositional defiant, where I'm just like, fuck all you all. And I am not, I don't want to be, I don't want to feel played by it. I don't want to feel played by it, and I don't want to feel like this is how how we have to live our lives. I don't believe it is.

[43:07] Laura Camien: About like, let me tell you what happened when everyone tried to check out in the 60s and go create like utopias.

[43:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[43:14] Susan Blackwell: It didn't quite work out the way they had imagined, and for a lot of reasons. And it's all of that is really, really interesting. So she's like, you don't you don't need to check out, and I'm not suggesting that you do, but to regain your power and your ability to your autonomy and your sense of agency, you get to decide. You do not have to just reach your hand out in the morning and pick up that phone before you even get out of bed and start scrolling. You don't have to do that.

[43:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[43:49] Susan Blackwell: You can very intentionally say, Oh, I'm gonna catch up on my phone stuff, you know, during my lunch break today. If it brings you pleasure, and if it doesn't, fuck it. I think this is interesting about in so many ways, like how we want to use our attention and our time and how we don't, and not to be tricked into being scared that if we decide we don't want to use our attention and our time in this way, that it's gonna be ruinous, it's just gonna be ruinous. We can't be successful. I just think I think of friends that I know who are not active on social media and who are living like very rich, satisfying, successful lives.

[44:37] Laura Camien: And I'm like, yes, I just thought of something.

[44:41] Susan Blackwell: Last week about Sir Richard Eyre.

[44:45] Laura Camien: Yeah, and he's 75, he's writing a play, but he was also telling us all about like going on long walks with his dog, the garden that he's cultivated during the pandemic, time with his grandchildren, yeah, squeezed in between like, oh, I and I'm directing these films, and I think I may publish another book of poetry.

[45:06] Susan Blackwell: And it's a it sounds to me like a very fulfilling life creatively and otherwise. And I don't think he's on social media. I don't think he's you know, allowing corporations to suck his energy.

[45:24] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I think Richard Eyre, people might go, yeah, but he's 77. And then I think of Jonathan Groff.

[45:31] Susan Blackwell: Jonathan Groff never got on social media, he's like F that S. And he's he's doing just fine.

[45:36] Laura Camien: He's doing just fine.

[45:41] Susan Blackwell: Doing just fine.

[45:42] Laura Camien: He also does a thing that is one of the most brilliant things.

[45:45] Susan Blackwell: What's that?

[45:45] Laura Camien: After he reads an email, and the it's whatever business has transpired or whatever the interaction is is done, he deletes it. He's like, if it needs to come back to me, it'll come back to me. He is like very lean with the all of that engagement. And I'm like, you're a genius.

[46:05] Susan Blackwell: Genius.

[46:07] Laura Camien: Also know him to be someone who enjoys his time outdoors, the farm, yeah, going for runs, you know, in the country. Like uh like as and I don't know him as well as you do, but definitely get that sense that it's a well-rounded life he's living.

[46:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[46:27] Laura Camien: So the I need to watch the social dilemma. I've been really nervous about doing it because I think it's gonna make me even more resistant.

[46:35] Susan Blackwell: But maybe that's a good thing.

[46:36] Laura Camien: Maybe maybe that's a good thing. And maybe knowledge is power, and maybe it leads to more happiness, like genuine happiness, not this filler bullshit.

[46:47] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[46:47] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's right. Not happiness because, like, oh my gosh, look at how many likes we got. Oh, you know, look at this.

[46:55] Susan Blackwell: No, it's yeah, like genuine deep.

[46:59] Laura Camien: This is gonna be interesting. To see what comes of this because I think I think we're something's brewing.

[47:06] Susan Blackwell: I think something's brewing.

[47:08] Laura Camien: This might be a bifurcation point. We're like, before our that spark, our life was like this, and after that spark.

[47:16] Susan Blackwell: Well, I'm telling you, I read chapter one of this book last summer. Then I got busy with things, and I didn't finish the rest of the book until about a month ago. Um, but the first chapter alone was life changing for me.

[47:30] Laura Camien: It simply, it it simply was like, I'm gonna turn my phone over. I'm just not going to look at it. It's not going to call my name every second and have me like jump up and respond to it.

[47:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:46] Laura Camien: My I think I've told you the story before, my grandpa. When you know, telephone.

[47:51] Susan Blackwell: No phones.

[47:52] Laura Camien: No, we're not answering. He would just answer that goddamn thing makes a noise, does not mean we have to jump up from the table.

[48:02] Susan Blackwell: I'm with your grandpa, relax.

[48:05] Laura Camien: I know now I'm like, man, he was on to something.

[48:07] Susan Blackwell: He was on to something.

[48:09] Laura Camien: All right. Cams.

[48:11] Susan Blackwell: That's me, Sparks.

[48:13] Laura Camien: That's a good spark. Shall we take a pause and then I shall spark you in return, Melody.

[48:20] Susan Blackwell: I appreciate you sparking me.

[48:22] Laura Camien: Spark.

[48:23] Susan Blackwell: All right. Shall we?

[48:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[48:25] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I just thought of something during our pea break.

[48:29] Laura Camien: What?

[48:29] Susan Blackwell: I was thinking about how. So that whole spark was about, you know, the attention economy and who's profiting off of your spark.

[48:36] Laura Camien: I mean, off of your off of your attention.

[48:41] Susan Blackwell: Um, but when I was working on it last year and and becoming more conscious of giving my attention only to things that were worthy of having it, it also relates to that upper limit problem. And and when we talked about like blaming, criticizing, worrying, when you find that your mind is trying to engage you in that, that is also about where we're putting our attention and not allow and and saying, yeah, I could sit here and blame whoever for whatever, but maybe more useful um to put my attention to work would be to focus on you know this creative project I have in front of me.

[49:29] Susan Blackwell: You do want absolutely, absolutely.

[49:32] Laura Camien: I'm I'm with you. I'm I'm excited about it, and I also like your spark. It inspires me and it gives me sort of an angry feeling because I just don't I don't like that feeling of we've been played in the most like candy colored way, in the like just like the it's all so sweet. Look at this picture of this dog. Look at this, like like titillating news story.

[49:59] Susan Blackwell: It's all clickbait, all of it is clickbait, all of it is clickbait, it's all of it and we've participated in it, like we've done, we've, you know, and I just see people, so many people like striving to be super clickable.

[50:16] Laura Camien: And I admire it.

[50:18] Susan Blackwell: On one hand, I'm like, it's good storytelling, and on the other hand, I'm like, I don't want to be in this game.

[50:18] Laura Camien: I don't want to be in this game.

[50:26] Susan Blackwell: No, no, no.

[50:29] Laura Camien: Agreed.

[50:30] Susan Blackwell: Agreed.

[50:30] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:31] Susan Blackwell: I want to be the captain of my own ship and detail. I want to have my hands on the wheel.

[50:37] Susan Blackwell: I don't want it. This is, but here's the thing. I think that they have made it so you can have the illusion of having your hands on the wheel, but it's actually one of those cars at the amusement park that's on a track.

[50:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:53] Susan Blackwell: Or the boat in the, like the, the, the yeah, whatever jungle voyage, and really that boat is only gonna be on that track. So you may have just spinning, yeah, that steering wheel just spinning. Yeah, I'm not here for it. I'm here for being the captain of my own, yeah, for reels now and.

[50:53] Laura Camien: I want to know do you still feel like your spark relates or are there is some there is some nice I do think that there is some nice uh relationship that you know perhaps we'll we'll tease out here a little bit but um cams I'm excited to announce that for the first time ever in the history of the spark file or at least that I can remember I am going to present you with a spark that was sparked by your spark you're sparking back at me I'm sparking back at you sister so bring it cams I think that you delivered an instant classic spark you did you just like knocked our collective socks off with your spark about the upper limit problem which we you just talked about in your spark that upper limit problem from the book The Big Leap by gay Hendricks was such a brain changer like it was so I haven't stopped thinking about it since you shared it with us we talk about it with our clients like I just thought it was so good so thanks to you thanks gay Hendrix oh my gosh I was so moved by it I was so moved by it in fact that I ended up getting that book and reading it and there was a different chapter in the book that sparked me up and that was chapter six, Living in Einstein time.

[52:36] Laura Camien: So you're gonna big leap back at me.

[52:41] Susan Blackwell: Here we go.

[52:42] Laura Camien: Big leap at me.

[52:43] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, oh, and then now I'm gonna big leap back at you.

[52:46] Laura Camien: Right back at you.

[52:46] Susan Blackwell: Right back at you.

[52:47] Laura Camien: I'm here for it.

[52:48] Susan Blackwell: Here you go. It's exciting. The source for the spark is the aforementioned Gay Hendrix's book, The Big Leap, which I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you throughout this, I'm going to straight up read from.

[53:00] Laura Camien: So, gay Hendrix lawyers, please don't come for me.

[53:04] Susan Blackwell: Um, because we love the morning, gay Hendrix. I feel like we've already sold so many copies of this book for people that I totally.

[53:14] Laura Camien: So I'm also going to be drawing from the Big Leap podcast, episode four to be precise.

[53:21] Susan Blackwell: Um but gay Hendrix, seriously, thank you for your thoughts and your work on this. It really is life-changing stuff, and we're happy to spread the good news.

[53:29] Laura Camien: So, as you know, Camps, you and I have been working our little booties off to build our business and making the high quality podcast you all are listening to right now, and just like trying to keep our floors vacuum and getting our tax filed, and we're like it's just been a very busy time, right?

[53:48] Susan Blackwell: And happy for the most part, but totally busy as fuck.

[53:51] Laura Camien: Like, let's not kid ourselves. It's been really busy.

[53:53] Susan Blackwell: And you and I have talked as recently as oh, I don't know, 52 minutes ago, about feeling very squeezed by time.

[54:07] Laura Camien: And that is that is what it feels like to me. Like all the commitments that I've made that I'm trying to keep and all the things that I want to do with my time, and all the things that I don't want to do with my time, but they are things that are required in order to be a functioning adult in polite society. It feels like all of those things are just squeezing in on me sometimes, and I feel squose by time pressure.

[54:30] Susan Blackwell: And I also have this sensation where it feels like no matter how hard I gallop, I can't quite keep up with all the things that I want to do and need to do.

[54:39] Laura Camien: And it makes me feel like I'm failing at life most of the time.

[54:43] Susan Blackwell: Cammy, does this ring any bells for you?

[54:46] Laura Camien: Setting it up.

[54:48] Susan Blackwell: I feel it.

[54:49] Laura Camien: Are you feeling it today?

[54:54] Susan Blackwell: I'm okay in this exact moment, but I would say I was feeling it as recently as you know, Saturday.

[55:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:01] Susan Blackwell: Which is not really a day that you think you should be feeling that, but feel it usually all the way through the weekend.

[55:09] Laura Camien: Through the weekend, the resting day.

[55:12] Susan Blackwell: Through the weekend.

[55:13] Laura Camien: That's right.

[55:15] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[55:16] Laura Camien: The squeeze.

[55:17] Susan Blackwell: I feel squose.

[55:18] Laura Camien: Yeah. I've also, you and I talk about this. We feel the squeezing and the squazing. And further, I feel like I'll speak for myself, I feel like I've been living with this sensation of being squeezed by time and running as fast as I can and still drawing, uh, and still just like drowning in to-dos for as long as I can recall.

[55:40] Susan Blackwell: And I'm talking decades.

[55:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[55:42] Susan Blackwell: And I I was thinking about it, and I can count on one hand the periods in my life where I didn't feel like this.

[55:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:53] Susan Blackwell: And then I think about Brene Brown and I think about that busyness and I think about like so.

[55:58] Laura Camien: Have we been doing it to ourselves?

[56:00] Susan Blackwell: So I will say that those those the periods on in my life that I can count on one hand where I didn't feel the time pressure. Usually the way that I earned those reprieves was by working my ass off.

[56:14] Laura Camien: In summary, I all I say all of this to just say I think my relationship to time has been kind of fucked for a long time.

[56:23] Susan Blackwell: And I'm not having it anymore.

[56:25] Laura Camien: I'm I'm so not having it.

[56:30] Susan Blackwell: Um you and I are feeling particularly squosed by time, I will sometimes quote Emily Fletcher, take a shot. I will quote Emily Fletcher to you and say, we are time billionaires.

[56:44] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[56:44] Susan Blackwell: We have an abundance of time, which I will say also feels a little fake it till you bake it to me because I didn't, I was just quoting Emily Fletcher. I didn't necessarily, you know, have the underpinnings in place.

[56:57] Laura Camien: But I think it's because I wasn't really ready until now to fully take in this spark that I'm going to share with you, Laura, and all y'all.

[57:07] Susan Blackwell: But to, you know, to vote one vote for Brene Brown. I think I've been addicted to this busyness for so long.

[57:18] Laura Camien: And yeah, it's numbing properties that I can barely remember a time before this addiction began.

[57:27] Susan Blackwell: I genuinely can't.

[57:29] Laura Camien: And I think like we've also talked about those times when we're like, okay, we have some time off, you know, meaning like obeying.

[57:38] Susan Blackwell: And the first half of the week is stressing about like I feel so uncomfortable about like I'm supposed to be producing something and being productive and getting something done.

[57:48] Laura Camien: And I just feel so I don't know what to do with myself. And now this other thing is happening where we're like, okay, we are going to not schedule stuff and we're going to sort of take some time off this week. And granted, we're still building a business and we're figuring out like workflow and things like that. But we end up working all week because there's shit, time sensitive shit that we have to get done. When I say shit, I mean work that we love to do, but still, there's not like what you're talking about, like just being outside and smelling a tree or whatever you do when you're outside. Like there's when the hell are you gonna do that? When the hell am I gonna have time to smell a tree?

So you get it. You get the dilemma. You get it. And maybe you all relate to it. But I read the following words from chapter six of Gay Hendrick's book, The Big Leap, available now, wherever you buy your fine books. I read this and I perked up. And again, I'm straight up reading. Please enjoy. Before I figured out how time actually works, I put in twice as many hours and got half as much done. My conception of time was so skewed that I felt either rushed, not enough time, or bored, too much of it. Most of the time I felt rushed, as if there was never enough time and it was constantly slipping away from me. I never got all the things done I needed to do, even though I felt like I was working over time.

Everything changed when I figured out the secret of Einstein time. Now I work half as much and get at least twice as much done. Even though I understand the science behind that shift, it still seems like a miracle to me. It works so well, it may seem like magic, but it's based on solid science inspired by Einstein's physics. Cammian, I read that and I was like, sign me up. Tell me Science. Sciences. Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. Inform me.

[59:50] Laura Camien: Okay. Um, before I go any further about what Einstein time is and why Gay Hendricks claims it to be so pleasant and effective. I think I need to explain what the alternative is. The alternative is Newtonian time. Not that it's either or, but in Hendrix's view. Newton, Newtonian. Like that's right. Like Newton. Like an apple fall from a tree and bomb me on the head, and I was like, hey, gravity. Newton. Okay. Isaac. Isaac was his first name. Okay. So this is from again, this is these are gay's words here. Got it. The Newtonian view says there's only a finite amount of time, and it must be carefully portioned out so there will be enough of it to do the things we need to do. The Newtonian paradigm assumes that there's a scarcity of time, which leads to an uncomfortable feeling of time urgency inside us.

While the Newtonian view is where most of us start, it is not how time actually works. Newtonian time scarcity is just a stage we're passing through, just as Newtonian physics was a stage we passed through on the way to Einstein's breakthrough.

[1:01:00] Susan Blackwell: What?

[1:01:01] Laura Camien: Yeah. The Newtonian paradigm guarantees that you will always have a problem with time. You'll either have too little of it or too much. You'll be rushing to catch up or bored out of your wits. In the Newtonian world, we're either running out of time or watching the seconds creep by. Think of how many times in your life you've heard someone say, I have exactly the right amount of time to enjoy everything I'm doing. I don't believe I've ever heard anybody say anything like that. Most people seem to live at the two extremes of the time continuum, rushing to stay ahead of the clock because they're busy, or virtually brain dead with boredom because they don't have enough to do. So that is Gay Hendricks writing about the distinction of Newtonian time.

[1:01:48] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:01:48] Laura Camien: And I'm like, yeah, that feels I there's not a lot of time in my life where I have experienced boredom. But I have actually have a theory about that. But uh and Gay Hendrix says in the book that he's definitely would rather be feel like busy and rushed than feel bored.

[1:02:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:08] Laura Camien: But to uh Brene Brown's point, I do think that being busy, I probably put this into place in high school where I think you were similar, like we were the president and everything, everything. We were the cheerleading squad, and we were just like incredibly socially active. Don't forget speech of the date. Don't forget it. Like we would leave the house very early in the morning, we'd get back very late at night. And I know that for me, I think that was a way for me to stay really busy and to not have to deal with some of the pain that I might have been feeling at or with what it oh, all of it. So I think that was a little bit of like leaning into that Newtonian paradigm was a little bit of a uh numbing out and a coping mechanism.

[1:02:54] Susan Blackwell: But it was rewarded because we were so productive.

[1:02:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, I was gonna, yeah. So uh to touch back on the attention economy, productivity. So while we might have learned it when we were younger to escape, you know, some shit that was happening in our in our, you know, home lives, perhaps. But then do you get into the workplace? We were mightily rewarded for this.

[1:03:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[1:03:20] Laura Camien: I mean, were we not like just the gods? I like the first job I ever had, they like within three weeks, they were like, you should be management and like moving me up, moving me up, moving me up. And it's like, oh, just more work. Work, more work, more work. And I was like, uh-huh, this all feels right.

[1:03:37] Susan Blackwell: You're robot.

[1:03:39] Laura Camien: Is more work. Yep.

[1:03:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: Um, you know what else this brought to mind for me is people's responses to the pandemic. I think people went straight naturally, went straight into their coping mechanisms in response to a global pandemic and were either I finished Netflix or I built an empire, right?

[1:03:59] Susan Blackwell: I mean, yeah, I feel like everybody we know sort of bucketed uh into one of those.

[1:03:59] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes. And what like what aspect of this can I control? And, you know, yes, yes, spin and and kind of spin on, frankly, because we don't know how to take our attention and put it elsewhere.

[1:04:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:04:22] Laura Camien: So this relates directly to Hendrix's point about personas. Hendricks writes part of our problem with time is related to the persona we have. A persona is a pattern of actions and feelings that came into being at a certain time in our lives in response to certain conditions. And most of us probably don't realize that the persona we're wearing is actually a persona. Now, I he uses the word persona, I might say coping mechanism, but I think it's kind of the same thing. He goes on. Most of us adopt a persona in regard to time, and then we forget it's a persona. We lose sight of the fact that we can take it on and off. It becomes ingrained and semi-permanent. Two examples of time personas. Time cop who gets there on time and reminds others to do the same.

The time cop gets frustrated because people don't show up on time and gets particularly furious with those folks at the other end of the spectrum, the time slackers. If you wear the time slacker persona, you're always getting hassled for being late or not showing up at all. If you're a time cop, you're often hassling people for not keeping their time agreements. And I I can also sort people in my life, generally speaking, into those buckets.

[1:05:40] Susan Blackwell: I'm a time cop, you're a time cop.

[1:05:43] Laura Camien: Steve Pasqual, if you're listening to this, you know you're a time cop. Like, like I have a tiny wrench to throw into it.

[1:05:47] Susan Blackwell: Tiny wrench.

[1:05:50] Laura Camien: Wrench it. And that is I was late to everything, but that is because I overbooked myself and attempted to do everything. And so I was not a slacker in any way. But damn it if I wasn't making people mad because you were constantly waiting on me because that I was just so busy and important. But really, I had just tried to cram 12 things into way too small amount of time.

[1:06:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[1:06:19] Laura Camien: I remember sitting at, I think that we we've met for to see many a show. An eight o'clock curtain. And just being like, okay, Cammy, and I'm going in. I'm leaving your ticket of the box office. I'm gonna go in.

[1:06:33] Susan Blackwell: Always.

[1:06:35] Laura Camien: And you fucking sliding in right at the last second. Like always.

[1:06:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that makes sense.

[1:06:40] Laura Camien: That makes sense.

[1:06:41] Susan Blackwell: That's an and I like your wrinkle.

[1:06:43] Laura Camien: But but I was never accused of being a slacker, but I saw some sort of combination of that.

[1:06:48] Susan Blackwell: So you're like, well, yeah.

[1:06:51] Laura Camien: Not cool though.

[1:06:52] Susan Blackwell: Not cool.

[1:06:53] Laura Camien: Well, uh, probably not great for your heart either. I'm just gonna say word.

[1:06:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, stressful.

[1:06:59] Laura Camien: So Gay Hendricks goes on. At the heart of the Newtonian time crunch is a dualistic split. We are deluded into thinking that time is out there, an actual physical entity that can put pressure on us in here. So the point I was just making to you. As Meyer Friedman MD pointed out in his classic book, Type A Behavior and Your Heart, typical heart patients have a marked sense of time urgency. They're in a race with time, and their hearts show the wear and tear of it. Later, Gay Hendrix says, Notice what time pressure feels like in your body. What does being in a hurry feel like? What does the sluggish side of the time continuum, the sensation most people call boredom feel like to you? And Cammy, when I think of you in those days of you like getting there and just sliding into the seat like at the last minute and just being like, Oh, I'm so sorry.

[1:07:58] Susan Blackwell: Oh God.

[1:07:58] Laura Camien: Like the stress. The stress and uh and then the shame stress and the you know, apology and shame and like the triple arrows of of it all.

[1:08:10] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that is takes its toll. I think that takes its toll when it's happening day after day after day after day after day as the norm.

[1:08:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh God, yes.

[1:08:20] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely.

[1:08:20] Laura Camien: And you couldn't have convinced me at that time that that was not the very diff definition of living my fullest life.

[1:08:30] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[1:08:31] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes. Yes.

[1:08:32] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[1:08:34] Laura Camien: Yes. Because also you'm sure getting a big chemical rush. That's a lot of adrenaline. That's a lot of like thrilled chemicals in the body.

[1:08:39] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely.

[1:08:41] Laura Camien: Yeah. Okay. Again, gay says Newtonian dualism pits us against time. In this paradigm, we think of time as the master and us as its slave. At the extreme, time becomes our persecutor, and we think of ourselves as its victim. Since time feels like an ever-present entity hovering in the background of our lives, we come to feel we're victims of an entity that's always there all the time. Such a view is dangerous to our health, disastrous for our business, and ruinous to our relationships with family and friends.

[1:09:17] Susan Blackwell: There's that shame.

[1:09:17] Laura Camien: There's my apologies. There's the triple arrow.

[1:09:20] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:09:20] Laura Camien: That's why I urge you to adopt Einstein time. Not only is it a new paradigm, it can literally be a lifesaver. I view on Gay Hendrix's podcast, he talks about people who are like, I don't have time so busy. Like he was, he's like, You have a mental illness.

[1:09:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:09:41] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes.

[1:09:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:09:43] Laura Camien: Because like I said, like you couldn't have convinced me. You could not have convinced me at that time in my life that this wasn't what it was all about. You know, being, like I said, busy and important and needed and vital and also fitting in, you know, Broadway shows and travel and da-da-da-da-da. Like, yeah.

[1:10:03] Susan Blackwell: Um, no.

[1:10:06] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'm so I'm really into this spark, Suze. I actually think we started talking about it, and then before, like before you read this chapter, I think, we started to be like, wait a minute. Well, let's recognize what it feels like to a do things we love at a pace that works for us.

[1:10:29] Susan Blackwell: Sustainable.

[1:10:30] Laura Camien: And wow, it feels very different. And it takes constant reminding of like, oh no, this is this is what this feels like, and this is good.

[1:10:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:10:39] Laura Camien: Well, I think with left unchecked, I think you and I easily slip back into that year that may have been more workable when we were younger, frankly. But as I age, I'm not fucking interested anymore.

[1:10:53] Susan Blackwell: But it's so habituated now.

[1:10:55] Laura Camien: I think we have to be so vigilant.

[1:10:59] Susan Blackwell: Diligent, yeah.

[1:11:00] Laura Camien: If we want to make a change, we're gonna have to be really, really vigilant. Um, I'm reading all this and I'm like, okay, gay Hendrix, you've got my attention. Please, please unpack this. But he goes on. He says, there is no evidence that the pace of life will become slower in the future. I read that and I was like, yeah, there is no evidence that the pace of life will become slower in the future. He says, we need to organize our time and energy, but the existing systems of time management are useful only up to a point and with certain types of people. For most of us, and especially creative people, Einstein time delivers a unique set of benefits. It's simple to understand, easy to implement, and so useful, you'll wonder how you ever did without it. And I'm like, Yay, you're killing me. Tell me.

[1:11:50] Laura Camien: Tell me the answer. Here we go. Gay says, now I invite you to make the bold move of changing to Einstein time. If you're using any time management system, put it in a drawer and don't look at it again.

[1:12:05] Laura Camien: And I think what he means is like covey planners and all of that, sort of like how to hypercharge your time, all of those systems. He says, in reality, you probably haven't been using it anyway. Einstein time is a new kind of time management that reorganizes your conception of time at the very core. It doesn't take any time to use it. In fact, it generates time while also producing abundant rewards in creativity, feelings of ease, and financial well-being. I just said creative.

[1:12:41] Susan Blackwell: That's right. You know what you like. You know what you like. Got excited. This new way of being with time delivers four main benefits. And here they are. You get more done in less time. You enjoy plenty of time and abundant energy for your most important creative activities. You discover your unique abilities and how to express them, and you feel good inside. And I was just like, gay, enough. Take me with you. But he goes on. When you make the shift to Einstein time, you experience a major surge in your productivity, creativity, and enjoyment. The shift takes place the moment you embrace one profoundly simple truth.

[1:13:27] Laura Camien: You ready, Camien?

[1:13:29] Susan Blackwell: What is it? You are where time comes from.

[1:13:38] Laura Camien: Wow. Once you understand that you are where time comes from, you have the power to make as much of it as you want. You're the boss. I know that might sound strange, but I promise you that this is the way time actually works. I'm straight up reading from Gay Hendricks. Please enjoy. When we switch to Einstein time, I know, I know. Hang with me. When we switch to Einstein time, we embrace this liberating insight. Since I am the producer of time, I can make as much of it as I need. We are no longer in an us versus them relationship with time. We are the source of time. And by realizing that fact, we become the truth of it.

[1:14:25] Laura Camien: To get to this new expanded version of time offered by Einstein, we also need to make a few changes in how we think about space. When we're running on Einstein time, our experience of time changes because we make a fundamental change in how much space we are willing to occupy. By learning to occupy space in a new way, we actually gain the ability to generate more time. And then Gay Hendricks cites Einstein's explanation of relativity. And I don't know if you've ever heard this, Camille, but Einstein talks about how an hour with your beloved feels like a minute, and a minute on a hot stove feels like an hour.

[1:15:05] Susan Blackwell: Oh. Have you ever heard that before?

[1:15:08] Laura Camien: Yes. So this example, according to Gay Hendricks, has everything you need to know to understand Einstein time and its powerful positive ramifications for how we live our lives. But it also has to do with how we take up space. So it's funny. I read this and listened to this chapter over and over and over again. And it started to click together. But I don't know. Maybe I'll explain it so clearly that you all will get it right away, but it took me a few passes. But back to Gay Hendricks. So let's say you notice that your belly muscles are particularly tight on a given morning. And I don't know about you, Camille, but usually mine are tight when there's some sort of ticking clock. When I'm like, uh, there's some time sensitive thing, or there's something heightened, like usually that's when that tightness occurs for me.

[1:15:57] Laura Camien: Yeah. You're busy though, so you don't stop to find out why your stomach's so tight. In other words, you choose not to occupy the space of your tense belly by shining the light of awareness on it. You ignore it and you hurry on. This is a costly moment, though, because by choosing not to become aware of why your belly muscles are so tight, you sentence yourself to a day-long battle with time. So this is that relationship between time and space. More on that connection in just a moment. More on that connection between time and taking up space in just a moment. Gay Hendricks goes on. It takes practice and keen awareness to master this concept. You must quit thinking that time is out there. Take ownership of time, acknowledge that you are where it comes from, and it will stop owning you. Claim time as yours and it will release its claim on you.

[1:16:49] Susan Blackwell: The best way Hendrix has found to do this is to become nimble at making specific statements or asking specific questions that allow one to seize the controls of their time and their life. Statements like, I acknowledge that I am the source of time, or I'm where time comes from. Or to generate an abundance of time, you can ask yourself, and it took me a minute to wrap my mind around these. Where in my life am I not taking full ownership? What am I trying to disown? What aspect of my life do I need to take full ownership of? Cammian, when I ask you those questions, at first I will say I couldn't get the relationship between I'm where time comes from and where in my life am I not taking full ownership? But I got there. But first, let me ask you when you hear that, what aspect of my life do I need to take full ownership of? Does anything come to your mind?

[1:17:51] Laura Camien: Well, that I am stressing myself out came to mind. But I was also in the midst of like, now I was going to say, now wait, so he's back it up because you jumped from you jumped from I am the source of time to where my life. And I was like, no, no, no, I must be missing something.

[1:18:12] Susan Blackwell: Nope, you're not missing it. I had to read it over and over and over again. And I still, like, maybe I'm not fully understanding it, but I'm starting to get it, I think.

[1:18:24] Laura Camien: Yeah. So when I'm like, what aspect of my life do I need to take full ownership of? Usually it's things that I am resisting slash procrastinating on. It's it still has a relationship to time. It's usually things that I'm just like that I'm resisting for some reason. Let's say preparing my taxes. Like I'm just like, what am I not taking full ownership of? That drawer full of receipts and the ticking clock associated with it. Just as an example.

[1:19:00] Susan Blackwell: Yes. So I so I think that is where I was sort of with um that I am responsible for stressing myself out because there's that, what you just described, like things that I do have to do. And probably once I finally do them, it's gonna take like an hour instead of my imagining it's gonna take three weeks.

[1:19:20] Laura Camien: You're you're hot on the you're getting warmer. Right. That's right. That's right. Also, I'm like, there's there's things that I don't have to do, frankly. That I think we're trained to be like, I have like I have to respond to all these things, I have to do these things in actuality.

[1:19:37] Susan Blackwell: Well, we were just talking about that in your spark. You don't have to read all the way through your Apple news feed.

[1:19:43] Laura Camien: No, but yeah, you don't have to do it. There's yes, that's right. You can make a different choice. And even some things in regard to work, like I don't have to do some of these things are nice to do, might possibly do, but they are not like must do and must do now and must do today. I'm I'm making that so I've made that interesting. So here's the principle behind the questions. The questions of where in my life am I not taking full ownership? Where am I, what am I trying to disown? What aspect of my life do I need to take full ownership of? Gay Hendricks writes: if there is any part of ourselves or our lives that we're not fully willing to accept and take ownership of, we will experience stress and friction in that area. The stress will disappear the moment we accept that part and claim ownership of it. At that moment, the disowned part of us is embraced into the wholeness of ourselves. And from that place of wholeness, miracles are born.

[1:20:47] Susan Blackwell: Which I think is to say I'm gonna cut through the stress and conflict caused by the resistance and lean directly into taking responsibility and ownership for the things in my life. So to me, this to me, just to reflect what you just said, this speaks to cutting straight through procrastination, which this is not in the Hendrix book. This is just my own thought on this, and it's not a full thought, but it's getting there. To me, procrastination is this crazy time dance that lives at the intersection of having too much to do, feeling time pressure and yearning to be bored. That's what it procrastination feels like to me. It's like I'm so crushed by time, I'm so compressed by time and yearning at the same time to be bored. So it's like almost like two ends of that continuum of like, I'm racing, I'm racing, and I'm yearning to be bored.

[1:21:53] Laura Camien: That's what procrastination feels like to me.

[1:21:55] Susan Blackwell: That's interesting.

[1:21:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, I don't feel like I'm yearning to be bored, but I do often feel I'm yearning to be free, meaning like I'm yearning to see a block of time where I get to choose whatever I want to do with it.

[1:22:12] Susan Blackwell: That's that revenge bedtime procrastination.

[1:22:14] Laura Camien: That's exactly it. Like I'm gonna stay, I'm gonna claim these three hours, even if it's in the middle of the night.

[1:22:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:22:21] Laura Camien: And um definitely feel that. And and I think for me, it's that like take responsibility that you know, my life has gotten significantly better once I realized like I actually don't have to go to everything I'm invited to go to. I don't have to uh, you know, like that shifted my life, but for I spent many, many years and still have friends who do it, like, oh, I have to go to this thing. Like, but you don't, you don't really have to.

[1:22:50] Susan Blackwell: You can't just go on a side tangent off of this. Can I just take a little little exit ramp for just a second? I was listening to the podcast. Uh, there's a podcast by uh uh master coach named Brooke Castillo. Some of you may or may not be familiar with her work, and she did this whole episode on she got divorced, and people, because the way that she podcasts and teaches and talks about her life, people feel they know her and the characters in her life because she uses them in her teaching and her coaching. Yeah, and she got a divorce, and people were like, Why? What's the story? Was there an affair? Was there this? Was there that? And she's like, I'm gonna just do this standalone episode on this because people want to know why, and they're looking for some story, but there was no infidelity, there was nothing like that.

I got a divorce because I wanted to, and that is a full thought. That is a complete statement. That's it. I got a divorce. I still love my ex-husband. I still we still have a great relations. We had a great relationship, and we still do. I got a divorce because I wanted to. I didn't go to what I was invited to because I didn't want to.

[1:24:20] Susan Blackwell: And I'm telling you, Cammian, it connects directly back to your spark and the attention economy and all of these distinctions you and I have been getting at about how do we want to use our time? How do we not want to use our time? And I will tell you, and maybe this is just me getting older and more ornery, but I'm getting my opinions about it are getting stronger and stronger. And some of them may seem counterintuitive to our business success or to what it's like to be like a socially appropriate person in society. But I'm sort of getting to this place where I'm like, I don't want to go because I don't want to. Thank you for the invitation, but I'm not gonna go to that. Or I'm not gonna do that thing that might be considered, I'm using air quotes, good for our business, because I don't want to.

The number of years spent like doing things or meeting people or talking to people because like it just it might be potentially down the road, some magical thing might come of that. That was such a ruse. There was such a ruse and such a and I think when you ask the question, what am I not taking responsibility for in my life? That idea, like I don't think it affects me as much now, and certainly not during this pandemic, but but those years I think of um I I need to take responsibility that I am the captain of this ship, and I'm not a victim of these invitations arriving and me having to go to them. I am responsible for the yes or no, the RSVP or the, you know, the I can and I can cancel. I can change my mind. And that is okay.

[1:26:05] Laura Camien: Yeah. You know, and once I started to give myself that freedom, I think, you know, I still there are times when I struggle with it, but I have given myself a lot more freedom in that regard. And it's made a difference. But I think that's what came to mind.

[1:26:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I think it's it does. It goes right back into this, and it all is interconnected. It also reminds me of our my friend Mike Warga.

[1:26:31] Susan Blackwell: You and I were just talking to Mike earlier today.

[1:26:35] Laura Camien: But Mike is one of the most creative, productive, capable people that I know because Mike takes responsibility and ownership for all different areas of his life.

[1:26:45] Susan Blackwell: And one of the ways that he does this is by, you know, there are things that we may not want to do them, but we're going to do them.

[1:26:52] Laura Camien: We are going to file our taxes, for instance.

[1:26:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:26:55] Laura Camien: And he's the kind of person that he does the thing that he least wants to do each day.

[1:27:01] Susan Blackwell: He does it first.

[1:27:03] Laura Camien: So for instance, he knows that he needs to snake the kitchen sink and it's going to be a fucking mess and just a hard, dirty job.

[1:27:10] Susan Blackwell: He snakes the kitchen sink first.

[1:27:12] Laura Camien: I just made that example up, but you know what I mean.

[1:27:14] Susan Blackwell: That's that Mark Twain, eat the frog, right?

[1:27:14] Laura Camien: Eat the frog.

[1:27:18] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:27:18] Laura Camien: Eat the frog first.

[1:27:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:27:20] Laura Camien: It does make you feel invincible if you do that first thing in the morning.

[1:27:24] Susan Blackwell: You're like, I could do anything today.

[1:27:26] Laura Camien: I already achieved the big thing that was like sitting there like a big fucking roadblock in the big took care of it sink.

[1:27:37] Susan Blackwell: Done.

[1:27:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:27:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:27:39] Laura Camien: So, according to Hendricks, we need to do whatever it takes to get ourselves in harmony with the reality that we are the source of time.

[1:27:48] Susan Blackwell: And once you're convinced, you need to start acting as if it's true.

[1:27:52] Laura Camien: And a simple way to do that is to put yourself on a radical diet, complete abstinence from complaining about time.

[1:28:03] Susan Blackwell: Cammy, buckle up. This is going to change your life.

[1:28:08] Laura Camien: I've been experimenting with this for the past, I'm going to say week and a half.

[1:28:12] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[1:28:13] Laura Camien: And it is changing my life.

[1:28:15] Susan Blackwell: I'm going to read a little bit more and then we're going to talk about it.

[1:28:18] Laura Camien: This courageous move will take you out of the victim position in regard to time.

[1:28:22] Susan Blackwell: When you stop complaining about time, you cease perpetuating the destructive myth that time is the persecutor and you are its victim.

[1:28:31] Laura Camien: Gay says, I found this surprisingly hard when I first started the diet.

[1:28:35] Susan Blackwell: Until I went on the diet, I hadn't realized how many of my conversations contained complaints about time.

[1:28:41] Laura Camien: Notice the conversations around you this week and see how many times you hear things like, I wish I had time to stop in blank, but I'm in a hurry.

[1:28:50] Susan Blackwell: Where did the time go?

[1:28:51] Laura Camien: There simply aren't enough hours in the day.

[1:28:53] Susan Blackwell: If only I'd gotten another hour of sleep.

[1:28:59] Laura Camien: I don't have any time to do that right now.

[1:29:01] Susan Blackwell: Each of those statements contains an overt or covert complaint, portraying the speaker as a victim of time.

[1:29:09] Laura Camien: It treats time as a scarce commodity, sending the message that time is out there and that there isn't enough of it in here.

[1:29:18] Susan Blackwell: Each statement is a mini whimper of misery, a claim that time is the whip master, and we're its hapless galley slaves rowing desperately to stay ahead of the lash.

[1:29:28] Laura Camien: The moment you stop complaining about time, you free up the necessary energy to mount a similar campaign on the inner plane.

[1:29:37] Susan Blackwell: You will need that energy because it is one thing to stop complaining that you are the victim of time, but it is quite another to stop feeling that you're its victim.

[1:29:47] Laura Camien: So, Camille, I see you writhing in agony over there. What is going on?

[1:29:54] Susan Blackwell: I was just feeling like if this was a courtroom.

[1:30:00] Laura Camien: I have been deemed guilty, like in the last 12.

[1:30:08] Susan Blackwell: I was just thinking of things that I've said to myself, uh, to Wes, to you, to anyone.

[1:30:19] Laura Camien: Please, CamS, I am so with you on this.

[1:30:22] Susan Blackwell: And I'm a baby when it comes to like trying some of these principles out.

[1:30:26] Laura Camien: Like I'm a week and a half in, so I think I'm an expert.

[1:30:29] Susan Blackwell: But like it's, I'm telling you, uh here's the good news.

[1:30:33] Laura Camien: Here's the optimistic piece.

[1:30:38] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing how when you start doing this, how quickly, if you're vigilant, how quickly you can catch these thoughts and make change around them.

[1:30:49] Laura Camien: It's shocking.

[1:30:50] Susan Blackwell: Is there like a positive thought that he suggests um using, like, you know, to create a new neural pathway when I feel like saying there's no time.

[1:31:02] Laura Camien: Instead, do I is there something else?

[1:31:06] Susan Blackwell: You can say where we it all goes back to where we started. I am the source of time.

[1:31:10] Laura Camien: I am the source of time, I am the source of time.

[1:31:15] Susan Blackwell: And if I need more time, I'll make more time.

[1:31:19] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:31:20] Susan Blackwell: It is radical.

[1:31:22] Laura Camien: Here's one way that my sort of addiction to busyness and this um repetitive negative thinking around time really. This is just one example of how it kind of has fucked me.

[1:31:35] Susan Blackwell: And this has been at play for years.

[1:31:37] Laura Camien: And you just alluded to it as well, Cameon.

[1:31:40] Susan Blackwell: Uh, so we are trying to protect Sunday as a day off.

[1:31:44] Laura Camien: We do, depending on the week. Some days we do better than others, but that's that's the goal.

[1:31:49] Susan Blackwell: And I will get to Sunday and I'll wake up, and usually the morning I'm like, ooh, because I didn't have to wake up to an alarm.

[1:31:57] Laura Camien: So that feels kind of good.

[1:31:58] Susan Blackwell: Yay.

[1:31:59] Laura Camien: And then around about 11 a.m., I start worrying that the day is, it's like the day's gonna be gone, and I'm not gonna get all the things I wanted to get done done, and the day is gone.

[1:32:12] Susan Blackwell: And I will tell you, you know that old we say it around this house a lot. Don't ruin Sunday worrying about Monday.

[1:32:19] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[1:32:21] Susan Blackwell: I have a really hard struggle with that where I'm just sort of like already at 11 a.m. on a Sunday, feeling like I failed the day.

[1:32:30] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:32:31] Susan Blackwell: And weirdly, to call back to your spark, one of the things that I'll sometimes do when I'm sort of like, I don't know which way to turn because I'm not gonna be able to get it all done anyway.

[1:32:41] Laura Camien: And time is squeezing me, and it's Sunday, and I shouldn't be feeling like this, so I get the double arrows.

[1:32:47] Susan Blackwell: I sit my little butt down and I start scrolling social media.

[1:32:51] Laura Camien: Uh how's that for a one-two punch?

[1:32:54] Susan Blackwell: Uh how's that for a one-two spark?

[1:32:56] Laura Camien: That's a knockout.

[1:32:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:32:58] Laura Camien: It's a there you go.

[1:32:59] Susan Blackwell: And she's down for the count.

[1:33:01] Laura Camien: And so just to use Sunday as an example, when I start going to that habituated thinking where I'm like, oh God, it's already 11 a.m. and I'm never going to get to all the things that I want to do on my list.

[1:33:14] Susan Blackwell: I stop, I take a breath, and I say, I am the source of time.

[1:33:20] Laura Camien: And if I need more time, I'll make more time.

[1:33:24] Susan Blackwell: And I just basically am pulling the plug on that thought, on that neural, like that little neural path that gets traveled by that little elect, you know, that a little electric traveling down that neural pathway.

[1:33:42] Laura Camien: I'm pulling the plug on it over and over and over and over again.

[1:33:46] Susan Blackwell: I'm not feeding the beast anymore.

[1:33:49] Laura Camien: I am, and this is where what this is where I think it all starts to come together for me in my understanding of this.

[1:33:57] Susan Blackwell: When I have that feeling of, oh God, it's 11 o'clock. And my list of the things that I wanted to do, I wanted to pot some plants, and I wanted to give the dogs a bath, and I wanted to vacuum.

[1:34:09] Laura Camien: I like doing those things and I wanted to do them.

[1:34:11] Susan Blackwell: And maybe I wanted to take a nap, but if I take a nap, like then I'm gonna wake up and it's gonna be like getting dark.

[1:34:17] Laura Camien: Like before all of that, when that stuff, when those thoughts are going through my head, talk about, I'm really I'm gonna do a spark about a managed mind.

[1:34:25] Susan Blackwell: When those thoughts come into my head, talk about the relationship between time and space, a contracting feeling comes into my body.

[1:34:35] Laura Camien: Yes, it is not a pleasant feeling.

[1:34:38] Susan Blackwell: The time pressure squeeze comes into my body.

[1:34:41] Laura Camien: Yeah, and the moment that I stop and breathe and say, I am the source of all time.

[1:34:48] Susan Blackwell: And if I need more time, I will make more time.

[1:34:51] Laura Camien: My body expands.

[1:34:53] Susan Blackwell: It is a more expansive, spacious, flowing feeling.

[1:34:57] Laura Camien: And that is the relationship that I think Gay Hendricks is talking about between time and space.

[1:35:05] Susan Blackwell: Does that make sense?

[1:35:07] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:35:08] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:35:09] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:35:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:35:11] Laura Camien: So lead us, Gay Hendrix.

[1:35:16] Susan Blackwell: So what I'm talking about, and I'm gonna do a standalone spark on this about the managed mind and thought work because I'm I'm coming to believe that thought work is the key to so much with this.

[1:35:32] Laura Camien: Tom Schulteis has that thing that he says, which is we don't know what happens after you die.

[1:35:37] Susan Blackwell: Nobody, I mean, we can suspect and we can believe really hard, but we don't really know what happens.

[1:35:42] Laura Camien: So pick the story that makes you happy and believe that.

[1:35:46] Susan Blackwell: Pick the thought that makes you happy and believe it.

[1:35:49] Laura Camien: So if the thought that makes you feel expansive and flowing and free is I'm the source of time.

[1:35:58] Susan Blackwell: And so if I need more time, I'm gonna make more time.

[1:36:02] Laura Camien: Then pick that thought and believe that.

[1:36:05] Susan Blackwell: After I got my um COVID vaccination, I had two nights of disrupted sleep.

[1:36:09] Laura Camien: I wasn't feeling well, and I didn't sleep well through the whole night.

[1:36:13] Susan Blackwell: And typically I would start getting really worried.

[1:36:16] Laura Camien: It's three o'clock in the morning.

[1:36:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm not going back to sleep.

[1:36:20] Laura Camien: I need my sleep.

[1:36:21] Susan Blackwell: I have a full day tomorrow.

[1:36:23] Laura Camien: I'm not gonna be at my best.

[1:36:25] Susan Blackwell: And this thing starts to perpetuate.

[1:36:27] Laura Camien: I start getting wound up, the contracting feeling starts.

[1:36:30] Susan Blackwell: I feel time pressure squeezing in.

[1:36:32] Laura Camien: This happened two nights in a row.

[1:36:35] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, I'm the source of time.

[1:36:38] Laura Camien: If I need more time, I'll make more time.

[1:36:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:36:40] Laura Camien: And I just sat up and I was like, I'm going to be awake until I get sleepy again.

[1:36:45] Susan Blackwell: And the next day I was like, if I need to make the time to take a nap, then I'll make the time to take a nap.

[1:36:53] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:36:55] Susan Blackwell: And I'm telling you, Cammyon, already I can feel a difference.

[1:36:55] Laura Camien: I'm excited.

[1:36:55] Susan Blackwell: I can feel a difference.

[1:37:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:37:02] Susan Blackwell: So one particular phrase that Gay Hendricks would like you to eliminate is this common one.

[1:37:08] Laura Camien: I don't have time to do that right now.

[1:37:11] Susan Blackwell: Like many of us, you probably use it often.

[1:37:14] Laura Camien: Based on what you've learned in this chapter, you can probably see now that's a lie.

[1:37:20] Susan Blackwell: It's a lie for two reasons.

[1:37:22] Laura Camien: First, time is not something that you have or don't have.

[1:37:25] Susan Blackwell: You're the source of it, and you can make as much of it as you want.

[1:37:29] Laura Camien: Second, when you say, I don't have time to do that right now, you're telling a polite lie to avoid saying, I don't want to do that right now.

[1:37:38] Susan Blackwell: This goes back to my earlier point about Brooke Castillo.

[1:37:41] Laura Camien: I got a divorce because I wanted to get a divorce.

[1:37:45] Susan Blackwell: I'm saying no to that invitation because I don't want to use my time in that way.

[1:37:45] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:37:45] Susan Blackwell: I don't want to.

[1:37:51] Laura Camien: It's a complete thought.

[1:37:53] Susan Blackwell: What if, what if I have a meeting at noon and it's 11:45, and Wes asks me to run to the store.

[1:38:06] Laura Camien: And I don't have time to get to the store and back before, I mean, practically before that.

[1:38:15] Susan Blackwell: You know, so what would you say?

[1:38:17] Laura Camien: Just say, I have a commitment at noon, but I'm but I have time to do that after this meeting.

[1:38:25] Susan Blackwell: You can say that.

[1:38:26] Laura Camien: Um, I think Gay's point is by placing the blame on time, uh-huh, you avoid confronting the truth of the matter.

[1:38:33] Susan Blackwell: And by using time as the culprit, you can place yourself in the victim position again.

[1:38:38] Laura Camien: Instead of saying, I don't have time right now, you could maybe say, I want to finish what I'm doing before I go to the store.

[1:38:46] Susan Blackwell: Or I want to finish this thing I'm engaged in before I watch a movie or have lunch with you.

[1:38:52] Laura Camien: Rather than claiming to be the victim of time.

[1:38:56] Susan Blackwell: It's sort of uh it's sort of what are you taking responsibility for being like, um, babe, I I can't use my time in that way right now because I'm engaged in something.

[1:39:08] Laura Camien: But yeah, do you know what I mean?

[1:39:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, I do.

[1:39:11] Laura Camien: I want to finish what I'm doing.

[1:39:12] Susan Blackwell: I want to finish this commitment that I have, and then I can totally go to the store later.

[1:39:16] Laura Camien: I want to honor this commitment.

[1:39:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:39:18] Laura Camien: Yeah, and then I I'm happy to go to the store.

[1:39:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, okay.

[1:39:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:39:23] Susan Blackwell: This all makes so much sense.

[1:39:24] Laura Camien: And it, I'm really excited to start to employ it.

[1:39:28] Susan Blackwell: I am too.

[1:39:28] Laura Camien: And and he talks in the book about after um he put himself on the no complaints about time diet, he started inviting his clients to put themselves on it.

[1:39:39] Susan Blackwell: And they started seeing really remarkable results too.

[1:39:42] Laura Camien: And here are some quotes from his clients.

[1:39:45] Susan Blackwell: We found ourselves getting more things done without feeling rushed.

[1:39:49] Laura Camien: I will tell you, just in the past week and a half, I have had that feeling.

[1:39:53] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:39:53] Laura Camien: We ended the workday feeling less fatigued.

[1:39:56] Susan Blackwell: Now, this makes sense to me, Camille, because if you're not indulging that resistance, if you're not indulging that resistance, it's crazy how much energy that consumes.

[1:40:08] Laura Camien: It really does.

[1:40:10] Susan Blackwell: And and Suze, you know, I've been working on this for a while now.

[1:40:15] Laura Camien: And this feels like the right next tool.

[1:40:17] Susan Blackwell: But one of the things that I've been working on is releasing that bodily uh tension.

[1:40:24] Laura Camien: Tension around something and and letting that go when I feel it and saying, you know, I just need to do this.

[1:40:24] Susan Blackwell: I just need to write this strategic document or what have you, and just do it.

[1:40:37] Laura Camien: And I don't actually need to get wound up on the inside about it.

[1:40:42] Susan Blackwell: And of course, what I've struggled against is like this in my mind and in my body, that's what work feels like.

[1:40:51] Laura Camien: And so when I do it without that, I'm like, oh, yes.

[1:40:57] Laura Camien: Oh.

[1:40:58] Susan Blackwell: So this is still me getting my work done, but without doing all of this.

[1:41:03] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:41:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:41:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:41:05] Susan Blackwell: This goes back to this thing that I say to anybody who will listen, which is, what would this feel like if it were easy?

[1:41:11] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:41:11] Susan Blackwell: Which is another shortcut way of saying, what if you take out the resistance piece and just flow into the thing, whatever the thing is, but take out, remove the resistance piece.

[1:41:24] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[1:41:25] Susan Blackwell: I was just gonna say that's another thing that I that when the question of like, what am I not taking responsibility for? That's when that's part of what I mean when I say that I'm the one who's stressing myself out.

[1:41:38] Laura Camien: I need to take responsibility that I'm allowing that wind up inside of me.

[1:41:43] Susan Blackwell: No one's doing that too.

[1:41:44] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:41:45] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:41:46] Laura Camien: Yes, but you may not have had another thought to replace that thought with, but now you do.

[1:41:52] Susan Blackwell: Now I do.

[1:41:52] Laura Camien: And that thought is take a breath and tell yourself I am the source of time.

[1:42:00] Susan Blackwell: I am where time comes from.

[1:42:02] Laura Camien: And if I need more of it, I'll make more of it.

[1:42:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:42:05] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:42:06] Susan Blackwell: Um, so a few more quotes from clients.

[1:42:09] Laura Camien: We suddenly had time to carry out leisurely conversations that we would have cut short.

[1:42:14] Susan Blackwell: Suddenly, a lot of frantic activity seemed no longer necessary.

[1:42:18] Laura Camien: Before I took responsibility for the for the amount of time I had at my disposal, I felt I was in an ongoing wrestling match with time.

[1:42:26] Susan Blackwell: I saw time as a big threatening pressure that was always about to overwhelm me when I learned the real truth that I am the source of both the time and the pressure.

[1:42:36] Laura Camien: It was like a huge weight lifted off of me.

[1:42:40] Susan Blackwell: And it's true, that is exactly what it feels like.

[1:42:42] Laura Camien: It feels like weight being lifted.

[1:42:44] Susan Blackwell: And again, that is sort of the relationship between time and the amount of space that you will take up.

[1:42:51] Laura Camien: What we are talking about is changing the thought, which changes the cascade of chemicals in the body, which changes a feeling of either contraction or expansiveness, right?

[1:43:04] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:43:05] Laura Camien: Suze, I can't, I can't help but also think about like I have known many a person, oftentimes male, but many a person who will show up at a meeting, take up their space, and be like, oh yeah, I don't have that done.

[1:43:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:43:29] Laura Camien: And no, the sky does not fall on them.

[1:43:33] Susan Blackwell: No, like a seemingly repercussions, you know, come at them.

[1:43:39] Laura Camien: But it is again within us that we show up in a meeting and like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, I'm gonna have to say, I don't have this finished, or this is just a first draft, or this is all the thoughts that I only had time to put like these three thoughts down on paper.

[1:43:53] Susan Blackwell: And that's us working ourselves up.

[1:43:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, but I also feel like you and I are actually, we have, and maybe it's out of necessity, have been getting better at this over the past year.

[1:44:03] Susan Blackwell: Where we'll be like, I haven't had time to get to this.

[1:44:07] Laura Camien: I've done a lot of other stuff, but not this.

[1:44:09] Susan Blackwell: And we'll say to each other, that has to be okay.

[1:44:09] Laura Camien: That has to be.

[1:44:13] Susan Blackwell: It has to.

[1:44:14] Laura Camien: And I just think that is also about taking up space and and expanding and saying that's all right.

[1:44:21] Susan Blackwell: I will tell you today, just like I have been playing with the balance of this.

[1:44:27] Laura Camien: And today I was scheduled from what time is it now?

[1:44:31] Susan Blackwell: The time now is 9 30 Eastern time.

[1:44:34] Laura Camien: I have been going since 6 30 a.m.

[1:44:39] Susan Blackwell: But I did the whole day with this this sense of sort of this expansive, I am the source of time feeling.

[1:44:49] Laura Camien: And I just trusted that I was going to get all the deliverables done and that I was gonna slide into the meetings on time, maybe right at time.

[1:45:01] Susan Blackwell: And that's exactly what I did.

[1:45:03] Laura Camien: I think I was a little bit late getting a deliverable to uh out for the email, but it still got out within like a half an hour of our target deadline.

[1:45:13] Susan Blackwell: And I was really pleased with the quality of it.

[1:45:15] Laura Camien: And I was just like kind of doing that gently all day long, even though my day was highly my calendar was highly scheduled today.

[1:45:24] Susan Blackwell: But I took out the resistance and the drama and the stress about and the panic, like that I just took out, and I was just like, what would this feel like if it was easy?

[1:45:34] Laura Camien: And that's how I did it.

[1:45:35] Susan Blackwell: And I'm the source of all time.

[1:45:36] Laura Camien: And if I need more time, I'll make more time.

[1:45:38] Susan Blackwell: And it all worked out great.

[1:45:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:45:42] Susan Blackwell: So that original insight that we are the source of time, that time is not a pressure from outside, that we can make as much as we need.

[1:45:51] Laura Camien: It takes only a split second to comprehend.

[1:45:54] Susan Blackwell: However, Gay Hendrix says it takes a lot of practice to integrate that insight into the practicalities of our lives.

[1:46:02] Laura Camien: The main thing is keen attention.

[1:46:05] Susan Blackwell: Be on the lookout constantly for complaints about time that come out of your mouth or go through your mind.

[1:46:12] Laura Camien: And as you spot them, eliminate them one by one, and you will grow steadily less busy while getting a great deal more done.

[1:46:23] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:46:24] Laura Camien: Do you see how now this equation might actually work?

[1:46:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:46:29] Laura Camien: When you remove the resistance, when you ask yourself, what am I not taking ownership of in my life?

[1:46:34] Susan Blackwell: And you lean straight into it and you remove that resistance and you expand and you take up space and you meet any sort of like negative, habituated thinking about time, and you replace that with, I am the source of time.

[1:46:53] Laura Camien: And I'm going to make plenty of time.

[1:46:56] Susan Blackwell: And in fact, I'm going to make plenty of time to master these principles.

[1:47:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:47:01] Susan Blackwell: It can you can feel now.

[1:47:03] Laura Camien: I think I just in a short amount of time, I feel how this could change our lives, Cam.

[1:47:10] Susan Blackwell: I'm I'm game.

[1:47:13] Laura Camien: I'm in for it.

[1:47:14] Susan Blackwell: And if you combine it with intention, like where we put our attention.

[1:47:21] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:47:22] Susan Blackwell: My God, it does seem transformational.

[1:47:25] Laura Camien: It's funny when this also leads to, I thought a lot about how this leads to the concept we've talked about before around radical honesty.

[1:47:35] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[1:47:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:47:37] Susan Blackwell: And just really being honest with ourselves about where we're not taking responsibility and ownership in our lives and leaning straight into it and being vigilant about the way we talk about time and being honest and saying, I don't want to do that because I don't want to do it.

[1:47:55] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:47:56] Susan Blackwell: And not like be blaming, like, I feel like I have spent a lifetime being like, I'm so busy and I can't, because I'm the victim of time and not doing that anymore.

[1:48:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:48:06] Susan Blackwell: And just being radically honest with ourselves and others.

[1:48:09] Laura Camien: It it feels like it could potentially be life-changing.

[1:48:14] Susan Blackwell: It certainly does to me.

[1:48:16] Laura Camien: It certainly does.

[1:48:17] Susan Blackwell: I'm very excited about it.

[1:48:19] Laura Camien: So, what do we make of it, CamS?

[1:48:21] Susan Blackwell: Here's a few things I'll be making of it.

[1:48:23] Laura Camien: And I invite you to come along for the ride.

[1:48:26] Susan Blackwell: An easier, more flowing, spacious relationship with time.

[1:48:32] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:48:33] Susan Blackwell: I want to say to your point earlier about, well, what about guys that you didn't say this, but roll into a meeting when they do?

[1:48:40] Laura Camien: Maybe they're late and they're like, yeah, I didn't have time, I don't have to have done.

[1:48:44] Susan Blackwell: And they just sort of like, oh, I will say this.

[1:48:47] Laura Camien: I will continue to be on time, but I will not be in a fight with time because I now know the truth.

[1:48:53] Susan Blackwell: I am the source of time.

[1:48:55] Laura Camien: So no struggle is going to be required.

[1:48:58] Susan Blackwell: And I'll give you an example.

[1:49:00] Laura Camien: Uh, I was moderating this thing, and it was like there were a lot of people around the world watching this thing on Zoom.

[1:49:08] Susan Blackwell: And I knew because the prior presenter was winding down, I was, I felt like I was running out of time, but I had to pee before I went live again.

[1:49:20] Laura Camien: And I was like, I if I need more time, I'll make more time.

[1:49:26] Susan Blackwell: And I went and I peed and I came back and I my butt hit the chair and they threw it back to me.

[1:49:32] Laura Camien: And I was like, I was like, okay, great.

[1:49:34] Susan Blackwell: Like I had just enough time.

[1:49:37] Laura Camien: If I had paused anymore to go, should I, should I not go?

[1:49:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:49:40] Laura Camien: Should I do it?

[1:49:41] Susan Blackwell: Should I not do it?

[1:49:43] Laura Camien: I wouldn't have had time.

[1:49:44] Susan Blackwell: But since I was just like, I'm the source of time, it'll be fine.

[1:49:48] Laura Camien: And it was.

[1:49:50] Susan Blackwell: So I am going to, if I have 90 seconds and I have to pee before we go live on Zoom, Cammyon, I'm gonna pee because I'm the source of time.

[1:49:59] Laura Camien: And if I need more time, I'll make more time.

[1:50:01] Susan Blackwell: And if I have a Sunday afternoon and I don't want to while it away being tormented by forecasting about what I'm not going to get done, I am letting that go.

[1:50:14] Laura Camien: I am making a commitment publicly that I am not doing that to myself anymore.

[1:50:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm going to make a practice of identifying repetitive negative thoughts tied to time and busyness and replacing them with the expansive flowing thought that I am the source of time.

[1:50:31] Laura Camien: So if I need more time to do the things that I want to do or have to do, I'll simply make more time from inside of me.

[1:50:39] Susan Blackwell: I will take ownership of areas in my life where I feel the stress and friction that's created by resistance.

[1:50:47] Laura Camien: And you know, I have this post it on my computer.

[1:50:49] Susan Blackwell: I've had it up there for a while now, and I've talked about it on the podcast.

[1:50:53] Laura Camien: Create more, consume less.

[1:50:56] Susan Blackwell: And what I meant when I wrote that was create more works of art and more acts of self-expression and consume less stuff, like spend less money on stuff and consume less media and less social media and shit like that.

[1:51:11] Laura Camien: But now, in addition to that, instead of being a consumer of time, I'm going to be a creator of time.

[1:51:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I like it.

[1:51:22] Laura Camien: I like that.

[1:51:24] Susan Blackwell: That's the spark, baby.

[1:51:28] Laura Camien: Create more time.

[1:51:30] Susan Blackwell: Any additional thoughts?

[1:51:32] Laura Camien: Any anything else you want to say, baby cams?

[1:51:36] Susan Blackwell: I just am really, really, really into this.

[1:51:40] Laura Camien: I'm really into it.

[1:51:42] Susan Blackwell: I love, I love changing this entire dynamic.

[1:51:49] Laura Camien: I feel like we, you and I, Cammy, have lived under that old paradigm for so fucking long and we've been super rewarded for it.

[1:51:57] Susan Blackwell: And it's the times they are a change in.

[1:52:01] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:52:02] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I love that spark.

[1:52:04] Laura Camien: I've I've written down a thousand notes and things I'm gonna put up on my wall.

[1:52:09] Susan Blackwell: I am the source of time.

[1:52:11] Laura Camien: And if I need more time, you're the source of time.

[1:52:14] Susan Blackwell: I'll make more time.

[1:52:15] Laura Camien: Make more time.

[1:52:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I love it.

[1:52:18] Laura Camien: Thank you for that.

[1:52:19] Susan Blackwell: I really, really love it.

[1:52:20] Laura Camien: And they were complimentary.

[1:52:21] Susan Blackwell: Quite they were, weren't they?

[1:52:23] Laura Camien: It's we have a lot to, I feel like you and I have some.

[1:52:28] Susan Blackwell: I think I feel like there's gonna be some changes afoot.

[1:52:30] Laura Camien: I think so too.

[1:52:31] Susan Blackwell: In really, really good ways.

[1:52:33] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:52:34] Susan Blackwell: It'll probably extend speaking of time.

[1:52:37] Laura Camien: When you take that stress and resistance out of your life, I can't help but think it's gonna extend our life expectancy.

[1:52:43] Susan Blackwell: No kidding.

[1:52:44] Laura Camien: A hundred percent I believe it.

[1:52:46] Susan Blackwell: And then when you think about like, and again, you combine that with putting our attention on things like nature and uh time spent in nature or observing nature or listening to classical music.

[1:53:04] Laura Camien: I have no doubt our health will be affected positively as well.

[1:53:09] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[1:53:10] Laura Camien: We are gonna be the most rockin' old ladies.

[1:53:12] Susan Blackwell: I swear to God.

[1:53:13] Laura Camien: Seriously.

[1:53:14] Susan Blackwell: I swear to God.

[1:53:15] Laura Camien: Anyone wants to join us on a nature walk, followed by a sitting on the rocking chair on the front porch.

[1:53:21] Susan Blackwell: You're all welcome.

[1:53:22] Laura Camien: Can I refill your lemonade?

[1:53:24] Susan Blackwell: Anyway, we're not there yet, but we're getting there.

[1:53:28] Laura Camien: Friends, I think that's it.

[1:53:30] Susan Blackwell: This episode of the Sparks File was made on Moncy Lenape and Seminole Land.

[1:53:35] Laura Camien: And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:53:39] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:53:55] Laura Camien: We'll even take your feedback.

[1:53:56] Susan Blackwell: But you know the price of admission.

[1:53:58] Laura Camien: First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:54:02] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social media at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast.

[1:54:09] Laura Camien: It really does help other listeners find us.

[1:54:11] Susan Blackwell: Also, if you liked this podcast, we sincerely hope that you'll share it with people that you love.

[1:54:17] Laura Camien: And if you didn't like it, use your time differently.

[1:54:23] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:54:33] Laura Camien: It is your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:54:39] Susan Blackwell: You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[1:54:43] Laura Camien: Thank you, gay Hendrix.

[1:54:45] Susan Blackwell: Changing our lives.

[1:54:46] Laura Camien: Changing our lives.

[1:54:47] Susan Blackwell: When I bope into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:54:57] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna take or how I wanna be.

[1:55:02] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:55:05] Laura Camien: Sparkile.

[1:55:07] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files.

[1:55:11] Laura Camien: Let's open up the sparkfiles.