This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I want to be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my sparks.

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien and I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:46] Laura Camien: If you're an OG listener, welcome back, little Sparkly.

[0:49] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, you should know everyone is welcome here.

[0:53] Laura Camien: They are.

[0:54] Susan Blackwell: Whether you've put your creativity on pause during this time or you've clung to it like a lifeline, either way, you're welcome here.

[1:02] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: Where do I get one?

[1:06] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[1:07] Susan Blackwell: These are such good questions.

[1:08] Laura Camien: We do have answers.

[1:10] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:16] Laura Camien: And here's the deal: we are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:20] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now.

[1:30] Laura Camien: But don't despair because we're here for you, and we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:39] Susan Blackwell: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:45] Laura Camien: Or a new chapter of our lives based on intentionality and focus on joy.

[1:52] Susan Blackwell: Hmm.

[1:53] Laura Camien: Or a cruise ship-style buffet of advice to fill up the belly of your soul.

[1:59] Susan Blackwell: Well, well, well.

[2:01] Laura Camien: How about that little piece of poetry?

[2:03] Susan Blackwell: How about that?

[2:06] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark pile and exchange some sparks.

[2:09] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:13] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might just hear that puzzle piece click into play.

[2:17] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark bell.

[2:24] Laura Camien: Hi!

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Hi!

[2:26] Laura Camien: Blackwell!

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: Blackwhelm.

[2:29] Laura Camien: How are you doing, little Cammian?

[2:30] Susan Blackwell: I'm good.

[2:31] Laura Camien: I'm so good.

[2:32] Susan Blackwell: You know why?

[2:33] Laura Camien: Why?

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: I'm so good, Suze, because I don't know if anyone um listened to the podcast um quite some time ago that uh the spark that I did on Reservoir Noir.

[2:49] Laura Camien: I am about to go back to Dale Hollow Lake for the Day Family Reunion.

[2:55] Susan Blackwell: And I'm super, super excited.

[2:59] Laura Camien: Hearing you talk about that place over the years, there is a peace that comes over you and a happiness.

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: It's like happy relaxation that comes over you when you talk about it.

[3:12] Laura Camien: Well, it's like one, I like I like lakes, I like water.

[3:17] Susan Blackwell: I like lakes, and I cannot lie.

[3:21] Laura Camien: I do too.

[3:22] Susan Blackwell: I love a lake.

[3:23] Laura Camien: I love a lake.

[3:25] Susan Blackwell: I love a lake in the north where the things that I feel under the water are not likely to be alligators.

[3:35] Laura Camien: Um I I don't mind, you know, a bass fish hitting me in the in the foot, but I do mind a gator.

[3:46] Susan Blackwell: Um and I love I love West Day's family.

[3:46] Laura Camien: I love West Day's family.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: It is an honor and a privilege to be a part of that family.

[3:57] Laura Camien: And I love being around them.

[3:59] Susan Blackwell: I'm reminded of what love and unconditional support is, and I just I love it.

[3:59] Laura Camien: I love it.

[4:08] Susan Blackwell: So and it doesn't hurt that there is rarely any Wi-Fi.

[4:13] Laura Camien: So I am unplugged in a different way.

[4:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:18] Laura Camien: I just love it.

[4:19] Susan Blackwell: And I'm I'm grateful that I get invited to to be there and to spend time with the family.

[4:24] Laura Camien: That's beautiful.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: Uh I'm excited for you.

[4:28] Laura Camien: But before you go, before you go, how about a little spark exchange to fill you up and send you on your way?

[4:37] Susan Blackwell: I would love to have a belly full of sparks.

[4:40] Laura Camien: Well, get ready.

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: Nice and full and satiated.

[4:43] Laura Camien: The belly of your soul.

[4:44] Susan Blackwell: Cams, this is a spark that I actually I've been toting this around for a while, and I'm so happy to shake it out of my spark file and share it with you.

[4:54] Laura Camien: This was sparked by an article written by Dave Pogue in the New York Times.

[4:58] Susan Blackwell: And the title of the article is The Best Advice You've Ever Received and Are Willing to Pass Along.

[5:05] Laura Camien: So Dave Pogue, if you don't know, is a tech writer and a TV host.

[5:08] Susan Blackwell: He's a correspondent on CBS News Sunday morning.

[5:11] Laura Camien: He writes a column in the New York Times, and that's where this article appeared.

[5:15] Susan Blackwell: Do you are you familiar with Dave Pogue?

[5:17] Laura Camien: Uh no, I'm happy to get more familiar with him.

[5:20] Susan Blackwell: Well, I originally came to him as a tech writer.

[5:22] Laura Camien: I would read his writing when I was thinking about like uh buying a certain piece of technology or something like that.

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: But but now he he writes about more than that.

[5:31] Laura Camien: And in this particular article, Dave crowdsourced his readers to share the best advice they'd ever received.

[5:39] Susan Blackwell: And they responded with advice, some of which I found was helpful enough and memorable enough that I popped it into Yieldie Spark File.

[5:48] Laura Camien: So here it is.

[5:50] Susan Blackwell: This is awesome.

[5:51] Laura Camien: Some of the best advice Dave Pogue's Twitter followers uh have ever received that they're willing to pass along.

[5:57] Susan Blackwell: So I just want to start with some just to get us going, just some practical bite size minis.

[6:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[6:02] Susan Blackwell: Um, our somebody named Paulina Gomez shared when you see a ball on the road, make a full stop.

[6:09] Laura Camien: There's usually a kid running right behind it.

[6:12] Susan Blackwell: Which is just like good, you know, practical advice.

[6:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[6:16] Susan Blackwell: And if you're like me and you live in a remote location, if you see one deer while you're driving, slow down.

[6:24] Laura Camien: Yes, because there's usually a couple more nearby.

[6:28] Susan Blackwell: That's that's the country version of that.

[6:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[6:31] Susan Blackwell: Can I do one that doesn't involve uh person or an animal?

[6:36] Laura Camien: Oh no, no, what were you gonna say?

[6:37] Susan Blackwell: There's likely more.

[6:38] Laura Camien: No, um, I was told never run over, like if you see a bag on the road and you're just like, whatever, a bag's not gonna hurt my car.

[6:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, don't run over it because like there could be a glass, there could be a bottle in there that will, you know, be crushed and then poke a hole in your tire.

[6:56] Laura Camien: You don't know what's in the bag, is the thing.

[6:58] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[6:59] Laura Camien: It's good practical advice.

[7:01] Susan Blackwell: That's great advice.

[7:01] Laura Camien: Good practical advice, sound advice.

[7:03] Susan Blackwell: Here's here's a piece of advice from Rory Evans.

[7:07] Laura Camien: A dollar bill is a scoche longer than six inches.

[7:10] Susan Blackwell: You've always got a small tape measure with you.

[7:12] Laura Camien: If you have a dollar bill, or I guess any bill, $20, $5, it's just a scosh longer than six inches.

[7:21] Susan Blackwell: So there you go.

[7:22] Laura Camien: Never knew.

[7:23] Susan Blackwell: Just account for that scosh.

[7:24] Laura Camien: That's right.

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: Account for the scotch in your golden.

[7:27] Laura Camien: Somebody named Margot Watson shared, boyfriends come and boyfriends go, but SAT scores are forever.

[7:35] Susan Blackwell: Which I thought was a really great way of saying invest in your brain.

[7:42] Laura Camien: Great advice for teenagers.

[7:44] Susan Blackwell: Great advice for teenagers.

[7:46] Laura Camien: Yes.

[7:47] Susan Blackwell: So let's just take it a little deeper.

[7:49] Laura Camien: That's smart.

[7:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:50] Laura Camien: Okay.

[7:52] Susan Blackwell: This piece of advice actually has really, really stuck with me.

[7:56] Laura Camien: It came from a person named Gail Decker.

[7:59] Susan Blackwell: And it goes like this.

[8:01] Laura Camien: Things don't have to be perfect to be things don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

[8:01] Susan Blackwell: Things don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

[8:11] Laura Camien: And this is advice that Gail first heard a wedding coordinator offer to young couples who were really having wedding freak out.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: But it really does apply to all kinds of situations.

[8:23] Laura Camien: Gail said that during a real estate hunt, my initial reaction was that there was something wrong with every condo I saw.

[8:29] Susan Blackwell: My friend reminded me, a place didn't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

[8:34] Laura Camien: She was right.

[8:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[8:36] Laura Camien: I love that.

[8:37] Susan Blackwell: Boy, that is true.

[8:38] Laura Camien: That's applicable.

[8:39] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[8:42] Laura Camien: And I mean, this is definitely going deeper in a bit of a tangent, but but in the world of the arts and performing in particular, how often can you think about like people who or performances that were not perfect?

[9:00] Susan Blackwell: And that is what made them more compelling.

[9:03] Laura Camien: I'm thinking of like all those like college age kids like auditioning.

[9:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[9:07] Laura Camien: And it like it, here is perfection.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: Here is perfection.

[9:10] Laura Camien: It's like a bit of a snooze fest.

[9:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, a little too much.

[9:12] Laura Camien: And then someone comes, yeah.

[9:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's like too much.

[9:16] Laura Camien: And then someone comes up that's like, what?

[9:18] Susan Blackwell: We barely got through that.

[9:20] Laura Camien: And you're like, yeah, but there was something about it that was wonderful.

[9:24] Susan Blackwell: I think of it about like you're thinking about a job or a relationship.

[9:30] Laura Camien: My relationship is wonderful.

[9:32] Susan Blackwell: It is not perfect.

[9:33] Laura Camien: Whose is?

[9:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[9:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:35] Susan Blackwell: I mean, embracing those things that aren't perfect can you know make it interesting, can make it spicy, can make it, you know, worth the journey.

[9:45] Laura Camien: And I love your thought about because we all, especially like whatever industry you're in, if you're in movies, if you're in theater, if you're in woodworking, whatever you do, things don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

[9:58] Susan Blackwell: So there are shows that we might see because we're in the industry, we might be super highly critical of them, but they don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

[10:06] Laura Camien: That's right.

[10:07] Susan Blackwell: And you're yeah, you can be like, I'm criticizing A, B, and C, and yet I can't stop watching this.

[10:12] Laura Camien: I loved it.

[10:13] Susan Blackwell: I like it.

[10:13] Laura Camien: I can't stop singing the songs.

[10:15] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[10:16] Laura Camien: That's right.

[10:16] Susan Blackwell: That's great.

[10:17] Laura Camien: That is a something that really stuck with me.

[10:20] Susan Blackwell: The next piece of advice that really stuck with me came from a reader named Christine H.

[10:26] Laura Camien: I cannot tell you how much I think about this Cameon.

[10:30] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[10:30] Laura Camien: Touch it once.

[10:32] Susan Blackwell: What?

[10:33] Laura Camien: This involves putting something away or completing it the first time you pick it up.

[10:39] Susan Blackwell: That way you don't have to waste energy looking at it, feeling guilty about it, letting it get dusty.

[10:45] Laura Camien: So you have to clean it before putting it away.

[10:48] Susan Blackwell: I love this.

[10:49] Laura Camien: Touch it once moves me.

[10:52] Susan Blackwell: It pushes me to move on things, make decisions about things, close loops.

[10:58] Laura Camien: And it's finished.

[10:59] Susan Blackwell: It's not just for housework.

[11:00] Laura Camien: It works for work tasks too.

[11:02] Susan Blackwell: And Laura, you and I do this all the time.

[11:05] Laura Camien: You may not know that I call it touch it once based on Christine H's advice, but you and I will be in a meeting and you'll say, We need to um find a time to meet with this client, or we need to blah blah blah blah.

[11:18] Susan Blackwell: If it takes less than two minutes, we do it in real time.

[11:21] Laura Camien: That's right.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: Which some people call the two-minute rule, which is if you can do it in less than two minutes, do it now.

[11:27] Laura Camien: If your time allows it, it takes more time to add it to your list and come back to it later.

[11:31] Susan Blackwell: Touch it once just do it.

[11:33] Laura Camien: Touch it once.

[11:34] Susan Blackwell: I like it.

[11:35] Laura Camien: I like it.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:37] Laura Camien: Um, here we go.

[11:37] Susan Blackwell: Reader Maddie Scott contributed some advice that she received at the funeral of her husband.

[11:44] Laura Camien: Sleep on his side of the bed.

[11:46] Susan Blackwell: Sleep on his side of the bed.

[11:48] Laura Camien: Maddie said it's truly the best piece of advice I've ever gotten.

[11:52] Susan Blackwell: The effect was profoundly comforting, and it greatly lessened the ache of missing his physical presence.

[11:59] Laura Camien: I will also say, Laura, this feels like a scene from a movie to me.

[12:04] Susan Blackwell: It feels like a little bit of a story arc where someone dies and someone uh like a great, a wise person at the funeral says, sleep on his side of the bed, and then you see it happen.

[12:19] Laura Camien: I love this.

[12:20] Susan Blackwell: It feels like such a cinematic spark to me.

[12:22] Laura Camien: Sleep on his side of the bed.

[12:24] Susan Blackwell: It really does.

[12:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:25] Susan Blackwell: It really does.

[12:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's beautiful.

[12:27] Susan Blackwell: And I can also see why it was truly useful to Maddie.

[12:34] Laura Camien: And I hope I remember it if I'm ever in that situation.

[12:37] Susan Blackwell: But hopefully I'm going to die before all of you, so I don't have to be sad about it.

[12:41] Laura Camien: So we'll see.

[12:42] Susan Blackwell: Oh wow.

[12:44] Laura Camien: No.

[12:44] Susan Blackwell: Now I'm sad about it.

[12:45] Laura Camien: I took a turn.

[12:46] Susan Blackwell: Um, took a turn.

[12:48] Laura Camien: But it also reminds me of like, in addition to like the perhaps not causing you to not miss them physically quite as much, you know, when if you've ever battled any amount of depression or just a tough phase, you often hear advice like just change one thing.

[13:08] Susan Blackwell: You have said that before. If you're used to, yeah, if you're used to putting, you know, your right leg into your pants first, right leg then left leg.

[13:16] Laura Camien: Yeah, just try.

[13:18] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna go left leg and then right leg. And it occurs to me that this is similar, that it's that one thing that you're sleeping on a different side of the bed. It is making a shift for yourself that is different than um, you know, it's shaking, it's shaking things up in your brain.

[13:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, I love that.

[13:40] Susan Blackwell: Here's a fresh one. There's a freshie. Melissa Fanning contributed, take a breath.

[13:43] Laura Camien: Take a breath.

[13:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Melissa heard this from a yoga teacher at a corporate retreat about which she remembers nothing else. It wasn't a yoga instruction, it was a six, it was a suggestion to pause at stressful moments to avoid saying or doing something regrettable. And Melissa said, I use this advice every day. It has preserved peace, calmed me, and made me appear smarter than I am.

[14:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[14:15] Susan Blackwell: Take a breath.

[14:17] Laura Camien: Yes.

[14:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes. That is the cousin to one that took me a while to learn, but you don't have to do anything.

[14:26] Laura Camien: Oh meaning, you know, if you have that impulse to try to fix things, something's wrong. It must be dealt with.

[14:32] Susan Blackwell: Actually, take a breath. You don't have to do anything. I learned a piece of that from you and from Nathan recently. We were considering working with a vendor. We had a lot of questions for the vendor.

[14:49] Laura Camien: And at some point, the vendor got really salty with us about the number of questions that we had asked.

[14:59] Susan Blackwell: And I mean really salty via email. And I was like, oh my God. And I this helps me organize my thoughts. I started drafting a response about, you know, we're we're just curious and we want to know the ins and outs of this thing. And we're we're sane, I promise you. And and how to kind of get us back on track with the relationship. And then I was sort of like, oh no, I don't want to, I don't want to work with a vendor who I don't think so.

[15:29] Laura Camien: When we're curious or asking questions and learning, and both you and Nathan were like, we don't have to do anything.

[15:29] Susan Blackwell: We don't have to email the person back.

[15:40] Laura Camien: And I said to Nathan, but I feel like I'm not going to be able to rest until I close this loop. I have to express myself and close this loop.

[15:49] Susan Blackwell: And Nathan said, no, no. They closed the loop. They closed the loop when they sent you that email, which was very rash of them. They didn't take a breath.

[16:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:01] Susan Blackwell: You don't have to do anything. Both you and Nathan were like, we don't have to do anything. And Nathan took it one step further with they close the loop for you. And I was like, okay. And it really brought me peace.

[16:14] Laura Camien: They did.

[16:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. They essentially said, if you're going to have this many questions, this isn't isn't going to work.

[16:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:21] Susan Blackwell: And we were like, we are going to have this many questions. We're going to keep having this many questions because we are curious. We're awesome. And we we think you'll find we're fun to work with. That's what I said in my email. But we are going to have questions. But ultimately, that email still sits in my drafts, never to be sent.

[16:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:39] Susan Blackwell: Because why? Take a breath. Number two, take a breath. Sometimes you don't have to do anything. Number three, they already close the loop. Three great pieces of advice.

[16:50] Laura Camien: No, no, they closed the loop.

[16:51] Susan Blackwell: They did. I loved it. I have to tell you immediately the sense of peace that washed through my body. Uh was that was some great advice from you and Nathan.

[17:00] Laura Camien: Um, speaking of advice, in the category of parenting advice, couples therapist Kellen Klein and his wife contributed this advice. The greatest gift you can give to your children is your own emotional well-being.

[17:10] Susan Blackwell: The greatest gift you can give to your children is your own emotional well-being. And I would say that's actually true in any relationship, whether it's parent child, a creative collaboration, a business partnership, a romantic relationship. The greatest gift you can give to the people in your life is your emotional well-being.

[17:35] Laura Camien: I think that is good advice.

[17:37] Susan Blackwell: Not always easy to explain. But good advice.

[17:41] Laura Camien: But it's so good.

[17:42] Susan Blackwell: It's such good advice because it it is that you know, put your oxygen mask on first.

[17:49] Laura Camien: Yes.

[17:50] Susan Blackwell: That it is like, what is it about us that like we're somehow taught we're competing with this other message that is like to be a good person, you put others first.

[18:01] Laura Camien: And no, no, you actually cannot be a good partner.

[18:07] Susan Blackwell: You cannot be a good parent, you cannot be a good anything without taking care of your emotional needs first.

[18:15] Laura Camien: Your emotional well-being.

[18:17] Susan Blackwell: I agree. And it's easier said than done. It's sometimes it's not easy to have a big life and you know, have the responsibility of those relationships and and achieve that.

[18:30] Laura Camien: But I love we had a uh potential client just reach out to us and they were talking about the we always say we're not therapists, you know.

[18:40] Susan Blackwell: Do you tend to your emotional well-being?

[18:43] Laura Camien: And that's right, their response was so great about all the ways that they tended to their emotional well-being.

[18:50] Susan Blackwell: And it really delighted me because I was like, that's the kind of person I want to be in relationship with, whether they're a client, whether they're a business partner, whether it's my spouse, a friend, yeah, yeah, collaborator, all of it for sure.

[19:03] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[19:04] Susan Blackwell: Great advice in the realm of work advice. Here's a favorite. This is from Gregor Gilliam. When you go into a job interview, have questions ready.

[19:16] Laura Camien: Inevitably, the interviewer asks, Do you have any questions?

[19:19] Susan Blackwell: And when you do, in fact, have questions, you show that you're inquisitive and curious and eager to learn. Gregor goes on to say, having been on the interviewer side, I'm amazed by how many people simply say, not really, I'm good.

[19:30] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[19:31] Susan Blackwell: And I never hire those candidates.

[19:32] Laura Camien: That's right.

[19:33] Susan Blackwell: I've had the same experience where you say, Do you have any questions? And there's typically a couple of ways people respond. One is, this has been, I've really, I think I really think I've got a good sense of it.

[19:48] Laura Camien: That's one way to answer it.

[19:49] Susan Blackwell: Another way is I have given some thought to and I've prepared some questions. But actually, this dovetails into a piece of advice I give to people going into job interviews or not necessarily auditions, but work session auditions.

[20:05] Laura Camien: And that is to treat it as a mutual assessment process.

[20:10] Susan Blackwell: To go into it, treating it as a mutual assessment process. So yes, they are gathering information. They need to see if you can do the job and be a cultural fit, but you are equally assessing if this is work that you will love and people that you'll love to work with in a culture that you'll love.

[20:32] Laura Camien: So I encourage people to enter into the meeting like that, just sort of forward-footed and present and curious with questions at the ready.

[20:41] Susan Blackwell: So it's not that you're just going to appear to be thoughtful and curious, but that you're actually really thoughtful and curious and curious. So that you can make a decision about what you want to do with your one wild and precious life.

[20:57] Laura Camien: Yes.

[20:58] Susan Blackwell: And that also says something about you.

[21:01] Laura Camien: It sure does.

[21:03] Susan Blackwell: Without saying something, it says something.

[21:05] Laura Camien: Yeah, okay.

[21:05] Susan Blackwell: It has the added benefit of leveling the dynamic so that you are positioned eye to eye with that interviewer or auditor, and you're not subordinate to them.

[21:15] Laura Camien: I really so it's it's sort of it's not just saying have some questions prepared so you look thoughtful and curious. It's saying shift your mindset to this is a mutual assessment process.

[21:26] Susan Blackwell: So no one is above me, no one is below me, haters to the left, and you are as they are in an information gathering, you know, exercise.

[21:36] Laura Camien: So are you you are as well.

[21:38] Susan Blackwell: And I just I think that it just does this balancing act, even if it's just an inside job.

[21:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:44] Susan Blackwell: Love it.

[21:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:45] Susan Blackwell: I love that. Um, Gail Steele shared this piece of advice. Greet people with their first names.

[21:50] Laura Camien: They're delighted.

[21:53] Susan Blackwell: So this is an interesting piece of advice, Gail Steele. Greet people with their first names, they're delighted. This is doubly challenging for me because I get this puff of adrenaline when I meet new people.

[22:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:04] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes it will knock somebody's name right out of my head.

[22:08] Laura Camien: Yes.

[22:08] Susan Blackwell: So 100%. I have to really work to remain present and calm and remember people's names. And also because I'm an introvert, but it really does make a difference.

[22:19] Laura Camien: I've noticed this starting a new job and meeting a lot of people and learning a lot of people's names.

[22:25] Susan Blackwell: That when three days later, when I say, Hi, Jenny, just as I pass them in the hallway or on set, how uh it does make a difference and it does start to it makes it okay to talk with each other. It it bonds people.

[22:40] Laura Camien: So I think this is a deceptively excellent piece of good advice.

[22:47] Susan Blackwell: I agree. And I've seen you do it.

[22:49] Laura Camien: It's yeah, I think it's simple, elegant, elegant, perfect.

[22:54] Susan Blackwell: Swell again. Advice contributor Catherine Kunicki, fresh out of art school, heard famed furniture designer Charles Eames on a local radio show.

[23:04] Laura Camien: And Catherine Kanicke called in to ask his advice.

[23:08] Susan Blackwell: And this was Charles Eames's advice. Never accept work where you're not learning.

[23:11] Laura Camien: Never accept work where you're not learning.

[23:17] Susan Blackwell: Now that's a very privileged piece of advice because I don't know that all of us always have the we're not always in a position to accept work where we're always learning. Sometimes you just have to go work at the General Motors plant doing getting a repetitive stress disorder on the on the assembly line.

[23:41] Laura Camien: But I love the aspiration of sometimes that's the best job there is in your town.

[23:47] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Some of those jobs are um, but if you can't always be learning, I think it's a great way to live and work.

[23:56] Laura Camien: That is, yeah, you're right about all of that.

[23:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[24:00] Laura Camien: Um, so thank you for that, Charles Eames and Catherine Kanicki.

[24:05] Susan Blackwell: So this next piece of advice that I'm gonna share with you, Laura, these are just getting deeper and deeper for me, but this next piece of advice has really, really made an impression on me. And it's it's a little three little words don't pickle things.

[24:17] Laura Camien: Don't pickle things.

[24:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes. So that line contributed by reader Sam Singer, attributed to Sam Singer's mother, means if you have something special, use it now. Serve daily meals on your good china, wash your hands with the luxurious soap you received as a housewarming gift. Drink that bottle of amazing wine you received right away. Don't save things for future use because who knows what the future looks like.

[24:53] Laura Camien: And this reminds me of a piece of advice that I tucked into my brain years ago that Oprah Winfrey shared.

[25:01] Susan Blackwell: This is something that the event planner Colin Cowie had given her, which is use your good things. Don't wait until you're dead for somebody else to use your good stuff.

[25:12] Laura Camien: And Susan, I think about it all the time when it comes to name it, clothing, shoes, cloth napkins, craft supplies, and sparks.

[25:24] Susan Blackwell: And sparks, Laura, when it comes to sparks. I think that sometimes people hold back their best stuff in hopes that they're going to use it for something later.

[25:35] Laura Camien: But in Anne Lamotte's book, Bird by Bird, which I reference in pretty much every other episode of this podcast.

[25:44] Susan Blackwell: The spark file brought to you by Bird by Bird.

[25:47] Laura Camien: Anne Lamott.

[25:47] Susan Blackwell: Anne Lamott says this in that book. Annie Dillard has said that day by day, you have to give the work before you all the best stuff you have, not saving up for later projects.

[25:58] Susan Blackwell: If you give freely, there will always be more. I think I've even said this on this podcast. I think I've quoted this quote on this podcast day by day. You have to give the work before you all the best stuff you have. Not saving it for later. If you give freely, there will always be more. I mean, I think this is part of the genesis of the spark file and why we want it to be like give it away. Give it away, give it away. Um, red hot chili peppers, there will always be more. There will always be more. And I have to say that there are times, don't let don't get it twisted. There are times when I do feel depleted, where I'm sort of like, oh, we've been working for nine months straight and I need a vacation, but and I have to restock my fish pond.

There is that. That's right. That's that's a real thing. But this idea that you're saving an idea for some, I might make a television pilot, or I might put it, or I have it. It and also there's the distinction of if you haven't found a place for it yet. But if something is burning a hole in you and you're waiting to tell the story until you can tell it perfectly, get to work. Start writing. Get to work. That's the thing. I feel like you don't have to give everything away. Uh like keep the things that you are going to do and do them. Do them like really do them. Do them.

[27:29] Laura Camien: So this in turn reminds me of an advice spark from Ira Glass. And many of you will have heard this, but I think we should hear it again as if for the first time, because it's that good. I'm about to read you a passage straight up quoting Ira Glass. So strap in because it's gonna take a second. Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, and I wish someone had told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple of years you make stuff, it's just not that good. It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you.

A lot of people never get past this phase. They quit. Most people I know who do interesting creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn't have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know it's normal. And the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on deadline so that every week you will finish a story. Thank you, Sparkvile. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I've ever met. It's gonna take a while. It's normal to take a while. You've just got to fight your way through.

[29:04] Susan Blackwell: I think this is some really, really good advice. I think it's I mean, it nails it. But so many people want to hear this because it's not easy, it's not comfortable, and it takes just a lot of hours. You just have to clock a lot of hours and make a lot of stuff. There's there's the like uh the Instagram meme that that goes around every so often that's like, um, don't be afraid to suck at something new. Yes, and it is that sensation of like, oh, I suck at this that keeps us from doing anything or like just pushing through until you can get better at it.

[29:44] Laura Camien: Yeah. And I I just think he he describes it so well. And you know, I I think that I have heard you share that quote before. I think we use it in one of our classes as well. And I just think it is so helpful for people. It's it's definitely every time you remind me of it, I'm like, yes, yes.

[30:02] Susan Blackwell: Well, by the time we see most people's work, it's fully formed. I mean, when we start seeing work in public space, it is fully formed. And so it's hard for us to imagine. I'm young Iron Glass, I'm not very good at this. Like it's hard for us to imagine that. But um, but trust, trust. I think about trust. I think about some of our early work, Laura, and some of our uh compadres who we were sort of running with when we're younger. And what I could see, what I think I have a good eye for is I can see raw talent and I can see the promise of things to come.

[30:43] Laura Camien: And that's right. And then I will say, because we've been in the game long enough, it's exciting when you see people deliver. But it like when they it really does come to pass.

[30:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. For sure. But when you stop yourself from doing it but without a you know, just stop before trying because you don't feel like the work is going to be as good as it is in your head.

[31:06] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, yes. Life goes in the other direction, but you're also not trusting that there are people in the audience, there are people seeing, reading, hearing your work, just like you described, Suze, that can spot raw talent.

[31:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So you're denying yourself the opportunity to hear from someone, hey, you've got something here. It needs some work, it needs some polishing, but you've got something here. And our fear of hearing it needs some work keeps us from hearing, you've got something here. And I just think, yeah, you know, our whole purpose in life in the Sparks File is to help people bridge that gap, get over that gap that he's describing, and do the work. And it is like the motto of the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center. Do you have an appetite to risk, fail, risk again? Risk, fail, risk again, risk, fail, risk again. Because that's not the most comfortable place to live.

[32:07] Laura Camien: It's not a good thing.

[32:08] Susan Blackwell: It's not. If you're looking for comfort, you might want to look elsewhere. But you know. If you're looking for pure creative, self-expressed satisfaction, it's a great place to live.

[32:19] Laura Camien: That's right. Yeah. Suze, I want to go back to don't pickle it.

[32:23] Susan Blackwell: Don't pickle it. Because I was thinking, I love this advice of like, don't like um, don't save your all of your good stuff. I love it in that context. I also thought and had an immediate reaction to don't pickle it in terms of your emotions and uh, you know, your emotional needs and anger and things that we let resentments don't pickle it. Don't let it sit there and you know, stew fester.

[32:57] Laura Camien: And stew and faster. Don't soak in, you know, a jar full of resentment.

[33:04] Susan Blackwell: So that's what occurred to me. I love that.

[33:06] Laura Camien: I love that. Don't pickle it. Here's a little piece of advice that my friend Joe Deere posted on his Facebook wall. In 2006, high school English teacher asked their students to write a famous author and ask for advice. And sidebar, I think that they must have asked the authors to come speak at their school, maybe. The students received one response, and it contained some great advice. Dear Xavier High School and Ms. Lockwood and Messieurs Perrin, McPhee, Batten, Mauer, and Congista. I thank you for your friendly letters. You sure know how to cheer up a really old geezer in his sunset years. I don't make public appearances anymore because I now resemble nothing so much as an iguana. What I had to say to you, moreover, would not take long to wit.

Practice any art, music, singing, dancing, acting, drawing, painting, sculpting, poetry, fiction, essays, reportage, no matter how well or badly, not to get money and fame, but to experience becoming, to find out what's inside you, to make your soul grow. Seriously, I mean starting right now. Do art and do it for the rest of your lives. Draw a funny or nice picture of Ms. Lockwood and give it to her. Dance home after school and sing in the shower and on and on. Make a face in your mashed potatoes. Pretend you're count Dracula. Here's an assignment for you tonight, and I hope Ms. Lockwood will flunk you if you don't do it. Write a six-line poem about anything but rhymed, no fair tennis without a net.

Make it as good as you possibly can, but don't tell anybody what you're doing. Don't show it or recite it to anybody, not even your girlfriend or parents or whatever, or Ms. Lockwood, okay? Tear it up into teeny weeny pieces and discard them into widely separated trash receptacles. You will find that you have already been gloriously rewarded for your poem. You have experienced becoming, learned a lot more about what's inside you, and you have made your soul grow. God bless you all, Kurt Vonnegut.

[35:19] Laura Camien: Oh nice one, Kurt.

[35:24] Susan Blackwell: Nice one. Wow.

[35:27] Laura Camien: Yeah. Wow.

[35:28] Susan Blackwell: I also want to say, and this is completely, I'm going rogue here, but there's a piece of this is a piece of advice from Kurt Vonnegut that I learned from our friend Jonathan Bernstein. Hi, Jonathan Bernstein. Hi, Jonathan. And he's incorporated it into curriculum, and I think about it all the time. And the shorthand for it is piece of cake. I hope I'm not getting this wrong. And if I am mutating it, my apologies. But it was Kurt Vonnegut's father was having trouble getting up out of a chair. Like their mobility had diminished and they were having trouble getting up out of a chair. And so they practiced this thing where Kurt would stand in front of his father, and they would like to say, piece of cake, and then he would stand up out of the chair.

[36:32] Laura Camien: It's a little bit like it's a little bit like the what would it feel like if this was easy? Uh, that the great Kate Cayenne shared with us.

[36:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I sometimes will just like before a take on a like if I'm shooting a scene on a TV show or before something that we're going to do that I'm sort of like, here we go. This might be hard. I just think or say, piece of cake. Piece of cake. Piece of cake.

[36:58] Laura Camien: How great.

[37:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Wow, I like that. So there's a little more from Kurt Vonnegut. So, but all of this, I just I love this, and all of it seems like pretty good advice.

[37:11] Laura Camien: Yeah. But what about bad advice?

[37:14] Susan Blackwell: Oh. This led me to an article in the New York Times by Adam Grant, the psychologist, author, and organizational psychology professor at the Wharton School. Super fancy. The article is titled, We Get and Give Lots of Bad Advice. Here's how to stop. Now, when Adam Grant is talking about bad advice, I think he's talking not about things like don't pickle it and piece of cake. I think he's talking about the advice that we get. Like, say you're a young person and you're going to you want advice about how where you should move or what you should do with your career or your life or what school you should go to, or even if you're an older, you know, you're a more seasoned person and you're sort of like, should I accept this job? Should I not accept this job? I think it's I think Adam Grant's talking about that more in-depth advice.

[38:08] Laura Camien: But I was interested in this, Camille, because we're in a position as coaches, we offer advice to people all the time, and our advice is sought all the time.

[38:18] Susan Blackwell: You're right. So Adam Grant, so this is what we're talking about, this deeper, more nuanced type of advice. And Adam Grant was saying in this article, he believes that the problems around advice can begin with who we approach for advice. So young people might rely on their parents or grandparents for, for instance, career guidance, forgetting that their parents and grandparents were raised in an era where it was common to spend an entire career at one organization.

[38:48] Laura Camien: One place.

[38:49] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's right. That's right. So Adam Grant cites this blogger, Tim Urban, who said on the podcast, their podcast, there are some times you should listen to Nana, but career is not one of them.

[39:02] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, sound advice. So we were talking about that. Like, um, remember when I reread Twilight Arps The Creative Habit?

[39:10] Laura Camien: Yes, I do.

[39:11] Susan Blackwell: And she like dug her heels in on like you can only be one type of artist. That's it. If you if you even think about being a hyphen it, it's like career suicide.

[39:23] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:24] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, that is such an old way of thinking. The world has changed. We were both probably told that to certain degrees.

[39:32] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[39:33] Susan Blackwell: And that's why you don't listen to Nana on career advice. I remember being told by, uh, we might have talked about this on the Twilight Art podcast by, uh, older casting director was essentially like pick a lane.

[39:37] Laura Camien: Pick a lane.

[39:47] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Is it voiceover? Is it gonna be is it gonna be theater, regional theater? Are you a writer television? Are you an actor? And even then I was like, uh, that's some crusty old advice.

[39:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:58] Susan Blackwell: And also how boring.

[39:59] Laura Camien: Yeah, like I think we've all determined we want to keep growing and learning, and we should live in a world where we can.

[40:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. So the core of Adam's advice on giving good advice. I quote to you: when people come to us for advice, people rarely need to hear our conclusion. They benefit from hearing our thought process and our perspective on the relevant criteria for making the choice. The most useful advice doesn't specify what to do, it helps people see blind spots in their thinking and clarify their priorities.

[40:34] Laura Camien: So I thought this was genius. And Adam says when students come to him for advice, he begins by asking them what they want. Are they looking for him to validate a decision that they've already made or challenge their assumptions or help them think through the considerations?

[40:49] Susan Blackwell: And this reminds me of a spark I got from you, Laura. Do you want sympathy or solutions? It's not exactly what Adam Grant is talking about, but it's related to it. It's sort of like what are you seeking is the first question.

[41:03] Laura Camien: That's right.

[41:04] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And then if Adam Grant shares a lesson from his own experience, he makes sure to qualify how it may or may not apply to the student. So Adam will say, here's how I landed on my career. Which aspects of my approach make sense for you and which ones don't, which I think is brilliant because I think so often the advice that people seek us out for, it's creative advice. And there's a million paths that one could take. There is not one right answer. So to qualify it by saying, here's how we've approached this in the past, but you need to ask yourself does that make sense for you?

[41:48] Laura Camien: That's right.

[41:48] Susan Blackwell: Are there aspects of this that make sense for you and aspects that don't? Which so I just love this. Adam goes on to say, at some point, you've probably noticed that you're wiser when giving advice to others than you are in making decisions for yourself. But you're not alone. In psychology, it's called Solomon's Paradox. And it often happens because we have more distance from other people's uh challenges and problems than we have from our own. And the lesson here is that one of the most effective ways to get better advice is to give it. And psychologists find that our reasoning becomes wiser when we think about our own problems from a third person perspective.

[42:31] Laura Camien: Which I thought was really, really like so. Adam said, listen to the advice that you give to others. It's usually the advice you need to take yourself. And it might be the best way to motivate yourself too. I just think this is so I think it's so interesting. He talks about how sometimes, and as coaches, I really responded to this. Sometimes when you're giving advice, it's actually more motivating. We're more motivated in our own creativity than it might be for the recipients of the advice. So if you want to be motivated, like give people advice.

[43:21] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[43:22] Laura Camien: I don't even need to ask the question.

[43:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[43:24] Laura Camien: We went into this knowing that the more we helped others, the more we would help ourselves, the more we help ourselves, the more we help others.

[43:32] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[43:33] Laura Camien: And the idea of committing ourselves completely to helping ourselves shine our light, helping other people shine their light, helping get creative work out into the world, up and out, up and out is what we we always refer to as, and that is like that is the biggest gift that we could do, like selfishly and also altruistically.

[43:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[43:58] Laura Camien: So this idea of like what we every time we give advice and and we hear ourselves say it, it's like, yeah, it's just it does be creating that pathway of inspiration and motivation.

[44:10] Susan Blackwell: It sure does.

[44:11] Laura Camien: Yeah, it sure does. So that was a bunch of advice. But what do we make of it? Just a few things. I really I've lived by this for a while, but I'm gonna continue to uh remember it and reinforce it in myself, not to pickle my things. I want to use my things and my ideas and my body and my brain and my resources now. Now, now it if I wear it out, then that will open the door to a new thing that will invite new ideas that will, you know what I mean?

[44:51] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[44:52] Laura Camien: There will be more. There are more ideas right behind this one.

[44:55] Susan Blackwell: That's right, ready to be shared.

[44:57] Laura Camien: That was just thinking back on our conversation with Paul Wontoric. He's somebody who's always been a source of inspiration for me because and he talked about it on our podcast, how he's sort of like I he has no shortage of ideas, and the more ideas that he brings to the surface and utilizes, they multiply like little bunnies, the more I come to them.

[45:16] Susan Blackwell: Spark bunnies, yes, yeah, yes, yeah, 100%.

[45:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, yes. Um, when giving advice, I'm going to remember that in most nuanced cases regarding someone's creativity or their career, telling them what we've done is not always the most productive angle, but demonstrating how we think through something is a more useful strategy. And I'm thinking specifically, we communicate with our clients via Voxer.

[45:45] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[45:45] Laura Camien: We sort of have this walkie-talkie system where they can share with us and we can share back. And I just this past week shared a mental perspective on something. I shared the inside of my brains and how I think about something. And that really seemed to be useful for the person. And I think I think that bears that idea out. It's a little bit of like teach a man to fish.

[46:09] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[46:09] Laura Camien: And you know, I uh Matt Goldman is one of has been one of my mentors for my whole life. He's one of the founders of Blue Man. And he would always, like one of the things he did was like teach me and others the thought process. How did he get to this answer? So not just telling you the answer. Teach a person. How did you get there?

[46:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[46:31] Laura Camien: And so then and he would even say, Laura or whoever else, like he the people he knew he taught the thought process to. He'd be like, Well, if that's the conclusion that Laura came to, I know she came to it by going through this process. And I trust that where she arrived was where I would arrive because we thought through it in a similar way. And he didn't have to micromanage. Like it was, it's really, really interesting.

[47:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:03] Laura Camien: I think it's great. Um, another what do we make of it? If you are seeking some good advice, think about how you would counsel yourself in the third person. As Nancy Klein teaches in her book, Time to Think. Often the mind that asks the question holds the best answer. So that's just a few what do we make of it stuff.

[47:24] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[47:25] Laura Camien: That's my spark. I hope you enjoyed it.

[47:27] Susan Blackwell: That's your spark, and it's a great one.

[47:29] Laura Camien: That was super super fun.

[47:31] Susan Blackwell: Yay.

[47:33] Laura Camien: Hey, do you want to hear my spark?

[47:35] Susan Blackwell: I do, but first I want to pee.

[47:37] Laura Camien: Let's pee.

[47:38] Susan Blackwell: Back in a sec.

[47:40] Laura Camien: And we're back. Cams, what you got for me?

[47:42] Susan Blackwell: Suze.

[47:46] Laura Camien: I feel like I have been. Well, first of all, there's like a strange coincidence that I'm gonna. It's uh you'll hear it when I say it. I have been reading nonstop this week about quitting.

[48:00] Susan Blackwell: Quitting, Suze.

[48:02] Laura Camien: Specifically, the sheer number of Americans quitting their jobs right now.

[48:07] Susan Blackwell: What?

[48:08] Laura Camien: Quitting their jobs rather than going back into the office. The LA Times ran a piece called Welcome to the Summer of Quitting, why many of us are saying goodbye to our jobs?

[48:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh wow.

[48:19] Laura Camien: And Axios called it the great resignation. They say that upwards of 40% of workers are thinking about quitting their jobs. Some people playing the politics game may say that, oh, it's because people found out they can make more money on unemployment than they can working their jobs.

[48:37] Susan Blackwell: So they read this on the camera.

[48:42] Laura Camien: One wild and precious life, isn't it?

[48:45] Susan Blackwell: Yes!

[48:46] Laura Camien: Oh my yes!

[48:48] Susan Blackwell: So yes.

[48:49] Laura Camien: So then a few weeks ago, the New York Times ran a piece by Adam Grant.

[48:55] Susan Blackwell: You're kidding me.

[48:57] Laura Camien: What are the odds that you and I would of this is the first time either one of us has quoted Adam Grant and now it's happening in the same I've talked about Adam Grant.

[49:04] Susan Blackwell: You have?

[49:05] Laura Camien: I have.

[49:05] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great.

[49:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:06] Susan Blackwell: But nonetheless, what are the odds?

[49:08] Laura Camien: What are the odds?

[49:10] Susan Blackwell: It's Adam's world. We're all just living in it.

[49:12] Laura Camien: Seriously.

[49:14] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So a few weeks ago, the New York Times ran a piece by Adam Grant titled, There's a Name for the Blah You're Feeling. It's called Languishing. And suddenly we all had a name for the sense of the dulled motivation and focus many of us have been feeling.

[49:30] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[49:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I started to notice everyone's like languishing, you're languishing.

[49:35] Laura Camien: I don't know how you I'm languishing.

[49:37] Susan Blackwell: I am.

[49:37] Laura Camien: It became like a thing. We're languishing, right?

[49:40] Susan Blackwell: So Grant writes, At first, I didn't recognize the symptoms that we all had in common. Friends mentioned that they were having trouble concentrating. Colleagues reported that even with vaccines on the horizon, they weren't excited about 2021. A family member was staying up late to watch National Treasure again, even though she knows the movie by heart.

[50:02] Laura Camien: Hey, I would too.

[50:04] Susan Blackwell: It's okay. Um, instead of bouncing out of bed at 6 a.m., I know that one made me giggle so hard, too. Instead of bouncing out of bed at 6 a.m., I was lying there until seven playing words with friends. It wasn't burnout. We still had energy. It wasn't depression. We didn't feel hopeless. We just felt somewhat joyless and aimless.

[50:30] Laura Camien: It turns out there's a name for that.

[50:33] Susan Blackwell: Languishing.

[50:35] Laura Camien: So languishing is a sense of stagnation and emptiness. It feels as though you're muddling through your days, looking at your life through a foggy windshield. And it might be the dominant emotion of 2021. Grant asserts that many people are struggling with the emotional long haul of the pandemic. Whereas in the early days of the pandemic, our amygdala, fight or flight, the brain's built-in threat detection system, yeah, was high on was on high alert at all times, fight or flight or freeze. But as time wore on, obviously we cannot stay in that state forever. And anguish has given way to languish.

[51:20] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[51:20] Laura Camien: And part of the problem, Grant says, is that when you're languishing, you might not notice the dulling of delight or the dwindling of drive. You don't catch yourself slipping slowly into solitude. You're indifferent to your indifference. Essentially, Grant says, we need to name it to tame it. Giving it a name helps us all collectively speak a common language and acknowledge the feeling in ourselves and in others. He even talks about how last summer the journalist Daphne K.

[51:57] Susan Blackwell: Lee introduced us all to the Chinese expression that translates roughly into revenge bedtime procrastination.

[52:06] Laura Camien: Revenge bedtime procrastination, which we talked about on the smartphone.

[52:10] Susan Blackwell: We sure did. One definition of it is staying up late at night to reclaim the freedom we've missed during the day.

[52:17] Laura Camien: Grant says, I started to wonder if it's not so much retaliation against a loss of control as an act of quiet defiance against languishing.

[52:29] Susan Blackwell: It's a search for bliss on a bleak day, connection in a lonely week, or purpose in a perpetual pandemic.

[52:40] Laura Camien: In another New York Times article by Kevin Roos, Christina Wallace, a senior lecturer at Harvard Business School says, we've all had a year to evaluate if the life we're living is the one we want to be living.

[52:55] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[52:55] Laura Camien: Especially, mm-hmm.

[52:58] Susan Blackwell: Especially for younger people who have been told to work hard, pay off your loans, and someday you'll get to enjoy your life.

[53:08] Laura Camien: A lot of them are questioning that equation.

[53:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. What if they want to be happy right now?

[53:14] Laura Camien: Yeah. Don't pickle it.

[53:15] Susan Blackwell: Don't pickle it.

[53:18] Laura Camien: So I feel that, Suze. And as you know, I have been desperately craving a collective reassessment. Like before we all just jump back into doing what we did before, can we please take a moment to assess what we want our lives to be filled with? How we want to spend our time. What do we want to dedicate our talents to? I mean, what are we doing here? Can we just like check in real quick? I just want a collective check-in.

[53:48] Susan Blackwell: And then yesterday I came across a Fast Company article by Ruth Reeder called Post-Pandemic Life has thrust us into the sixth stage of grief.

[54:00] Laura Camien: The search for meaning.

[54:02] Susan Blackwell: Oh. The search for meaning. According to Fast Company, in the wake of the pandemic and 3.7 million deaths worldwide, many people are feeling the need to throw off the entrapments that no longer serve us.

[54:20] Laura Camien: Yes.

[54:21] Susan Blackwell: We are languishing.

[54:22] Laura Camien: There's that word again.

[54:24] Susan Blackwell: A condition that can only be treated by making shifts in our lives. And according to Fast Company, people are making changes.

[54:34] Laura Camien: The great reassessment has Americans rethinking where and how they want to work.

[54:40] Susan Blackwell: Pew Research reports that 66% of Americans are thinking of changing fields. Others are considering a longer sabbatical to spend more time with family and figure out what kind of work really matters to them.

[54:54] Laura Camien: Yeah. A phenomenon, Kevin Bruce of the New York Times coined the YOLO economy.

[54:59] Susan Blackwell: You only live once.

[55:01] Laura Camien: Yeah. While many may be leaving behind menial jobs that didn't pay, some people are leaving good jobs, perhaps like feeling burnt out.

[55:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And the article goes on. It's not just work. People have also relocated. One survey found that 16% of adults moved during the pandemic. Some of those departures were just hastened exits, people who were planning to move in the future but just moved up their timelines.

[55:29] Laura Camien: Others realized the importance of space in the confines of COVID-19 restrictions. Some moves were strategic in with family that could help take care of the kids. But they may also be part of a larger trend of disruption.

[55:46] Susan Blackwell: Experts expect divorces to spike. We are reconsidering everything. Friendships, God, how we dress, whether or not college is worth it, all the notions we once took for granted.

[56:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:03] Susan Blackwell: And this made me happy. I mean, not the divorces and whether or not college is worth it. I'm happy to know that people are really doing the work, the reflection, the assessment to determine what's it all for for them.

[56:20] Laura Camien: Yeah. As many people have said, we're all likely in one stage or another of pandemic grief. And in grief terminology, the search for meaning is known as the sixth stage of grief.

[56:33] Susan Blackwell: In Fast Company, David Kessler, the author of Finding Meaning, the sixth stage of grief, who we have also talked about previously on the Sparks File.

[56:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:43] Susan Blackwell: Kessler says, What I try to help people understand is meaning is not in that horrific event. Meaning is in us afterward. I think about like what my therapist says. You cannot process a trauma while you are going through the trauma. That meaning comes afterwards and it's in you.

[57:08] Laura Camien: Kessler's concern is that we should all go slow in this reassessment of our lives because we are still, in essence, going through it. Making extreme alterations to your life while you're experiencing grief is like operating heavy machinery while drunk. He advises against it.

[57:30] Susan Blackwell: He does think we should follow that urge to reevaluate our lives. But in his opinion, like let's not try to rush a major metamorphosis, which is a phrase I've been thinking a lot lately.

[57:43] Laura Camien: I'm strangely not because of this. I was thinking it for other reasons. I was like, you cannot rush metamorphosis.

[57:52] Susan Blackwell: But Kessler believes that there can be relief even in the small epiphanies. And I'm right now, I'm just like, this is uncanny because the spark you did recently about the art of gathering, Priya Parker has us asking some questions, but I'm that are you know specific to sort of the gatherings in our life. But I wanted to in this spark wanted to ask you like, what do you think? Do you have an idea of what you'll take with you into the next chapter and what you'd like to leave behind?

[58:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, I do. And sometimes I've heard that advice before. When I started meditating, I remember Emily Fletcher saying, cautioning us and saying, don't make any rash life changes. A little bit like what David Kessler's saying, where it's sort of like before you quit your job, get a divorce, like just know that your system is gonna be going through some changes with the addition of meditation. And so don't do anything rash.

[58:54] Susan Blackwell: But I will tell you with the pandemic and with meditation, some things have been brewing for a long time. And I was like, nope, I'm pretty clear about it.

[59:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[59:08] Susan Blackwell: And so yeah, it doesn't, I'm like that being said, it may take a little while longer to put the structures in place to let some of that stuff go and leave it behind.

[59:22] Laura Camien: And that makes perfect sense. What about you?

[59:25] Susan Blackwell: I do, I do, and this won't surprise you at all. I would like to leave behind any and all competing for the suffering trophy.

[59:35] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm not interested in competing in the area of busyness and overworking. I'm out of that game. I'm checking out. I I'm I'm done.

[59:47] Susan Blackwell: My answer is yours.

[59:48] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[59:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm done. And and to all those people who, you know, who are competing for it, I say, congratulations. It is all yours. I relinquish my hands from this trophy.

[1:00:03] Laura Camien: I want to work smart with more ease and more joy. And we are well on our way to this. Like we've been building this prior to the pandemic. So I feel very, very grateful for that.

[1:00:19] Susan Blackwell: But I want to leave behind a completely packed schedule and the sense of rushing everywhere.

[1:00:27] Laura Camien: Rushing, rushing, rushing.

[1:00:30] Susan Blackwell: Goodbye to that. I want a more porous schedule that we talk about all the time that allows me to like take my time arriving at my destination.

[1:00:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:00:43] Susan Blackwell: I'd like to take with me the joy of the work that we're doing together, Suze. It feels purposeful and intentional. And I'm so grateful for it.

[1:00:55] Laura Camien: All of these articles about people leaving their jobs because they do not feel passion or purpose from them. Well, I feel like again, we got to jump on that, like pre-pandemic.

[1:01:06] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:01:07] Laura Camien: When we decided to create the Sparks File and follow our own creativity and our joy in help, those are the top things that come to mind for me that I'm I am so ready.

[1:01:23] Susan Blackwell: And you're right. These are things that were brewing before.

[1:01:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:01:27] Susan Blackwell: The things I'm leaving behind. These are things that I'm like, I did not think I could step off the ride, that crazy train ride.

[1:01:36] Laura Camien: I'm with you on this. I want a kinder, gentler way of life that to a certain extent, I mean, we worked our asses off during the pandemic.

[1:01:51] Susan Blackwell: We did, we did.

[1:01:53] Laura Camien: We did.

[1:01:54] Susan Blackwell: And then I get nervous about the world reopening because I'm sort of like, oh, now we're gonna work our asses off. And we're gonna be required to do it in person sometimes. And do it, which means commuting and stuff like that and social invitations.

[1:02:10] Laura Camien: But I I don't know. I I'm interested in this. I'm very, very interested in this.

[1:02:16] Susan Blackwell: I think we're both committed to it. And the thing is, like, it's not gonna arrive at perfection and stay there. I think it's a balance, it's a balancing act.

[1:02:25] Laura Camien: And we're always gonna feel like, oh, there's too much space in our schedule. Oh no, there's not enough space in our schedule. And like a little teeter totter, we will be all, you know, always trying to delicately balance that.

[1:02:39] Susan Blackwell: But when I think about like the work environments that I've been in, you know, before, and please, if you are a former coworker of mine and you hear me saying this, I fully expect.

[1:02:55] Laura Camien: No, I fully expect that you would be saying, but Laura, you helped create that culture, and I am guilty. I am absolutely guilty. I played the game, and um, and it was important to me that my work ethic never be doubted, and and and people just simply like, you know, well, no one works harder than me. Like you could question any number of things, but you couldn't question that.

[1:03:21] Susan Blackwell: And so for that, I want to apologize to all my former co-workers, but I think now about something that my friend and uh incredible like life coach, Joanne Heyman said, she said it's about learning the difference between being invaluable and being valued.

[1:03:46] Laura Camien: And I think the younger me and the cultures that I've worked in, it's a fallacy, by the way, that anyone is invaluable because you can and will be replaced at any time. But we tell ourselves that story that I will make myself invaluable. This place can't go on without me. They would they couldn't cut me because I'm integral to the fabric of this. The wheels would fall off. And that's the game we play, that's the story we tell.

[1:04:17] Susan Blackwell: When in fact, what we are really yearning for is to be valued for what we contribute, which can be done with boundaries in place. I don't think either one of us want any of our clients to feel like I can't do it without Laura and Susan. I can't, but I just can't.

[1:04:45] Laura Camien: Of course. The point is that our contributions to their work are valued and have value and are meaningful in the steps that they're taking along their journey, but they are doing the work.

[1:05:05] Laura Camien: And I feel like it's a very important distinction. I think it is one that smart consultants. Joanne Heyman's amazing. And I think smart consultants have this figured out. They don't ever come into a company, their goal is never like I'm going to step into this company and make it so the company can't work without me.

[1:05:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:05:29] Laura Camien: I mean you're right. No, no, no. Yep. Their goal is to step into this company, help some light bulbs go off in the minds of some of these people, help them see how they could be working more efficiently, how they could be working better, and then step off. So I just I want to take that with me. That's what I want to do. And back to your earlier point about where we're at now, where we'd like to see ourselves. I just want to refer back to a beautiful piece of advice that we just shared. Things don't have to be perfect to be wonderful. That it is going to be imperfect until, well, always, but it can also still be wonderful.

[1:06:14] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes. And yes. And I think it is wonderful. So what do we make of all this? What do we make of it?

[1:06:23] Laura Camien: I think we make a concerted effort to assess our lives in a thoughtful way. Adam Grant says in that New York Times article that the concept of flow may be the antidote to languishing. Flow is that elusive state of absorption in a meaningful challenge or a momentary bond where your sense of time, place, and self melts away. To find flow, you must step away from some of the distractions of the attention economy, all those things that pull at you, bouncing around from task to social media to television to task. You can't find flow when you can't find focus.

[1:07:05] Susan Blackwell: Huh.

[1:07:10] Laura Camien: Flow requires focus. In an article in the Harvard Business Review by Teresa M. Amabile and Stephen J. Kramer, they write, ooh, Suze, I think you're gonna like this. In our recent research on creative work inside businesses and through exhaustive analysis of diaries kept by knowledge workers, we discovered the progress principle. Of all the things that can boost emotions, motivation, and perceptions during the workday, the single most important is making progress in meaningful work.

[1:07:39] Susan Blackwell: Making progress in meaningful work.

[1:08:15] Laura Camien: To entice workers to stay or even just lure them back into the office, but they would be smart to hone in on helping workers feel how meaningful their work is and creating systems that would allow them to feel progress in that meaningful work. Again, of all the things that boost emotions and motivations and perceptions during a workday, the single most important is making progress in meaningful work. As individuals, I think we need to focus on the things that are meaningful to us and commit the uninterrupted time to making progress on them. Whether that be a hobby that you're interested in or a creative project you've been wanting to create, following through and seeing the progress is one of the most meaningful things you can do. Give yourself the gift of getting into flow as often as you possibly can.

[1:09:18] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Corey Keyes, and we know people who can articulate that is my goal, be in flow as much as possible.

[1:09:27] Laura Camien: Kenyatta Emmanuel.

[1:09:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Kenyatta, thank you for that. Dr. Corey Keyes, a professor of sociology at Emory University, says in a New York Times article by Danny Bloom Most important for overall well being, Dr. Keyes said, is being interested in life. A sense of satisfaction or happiness tends to follow that. The pandemic has challenged us because we haven't been able to pursue many of our previous interests. He said, the first key to feeling good about life is to seek out new interests. And Bloom writes, as you emerge from pandemic life, try to reconnect with a community you've missed. It might be going back to church or choir practice, a running group, or yoga class, or even just hanging out at your local coffee shop. Don't be afraid to chat with a stranger, reconnect with your barista, or strike up a conversation at the dog park. That's that positive social interaction, Suze, that you talked about in your burnout work.

[1:10:30] Susan Blackwell: Completing the stress response.

[1:10:31] Laura Camien: Yep, yep, yep. That's right. You heard it here first, friends. Find something that sparks you, something that gets those synapses firing off in your brain by acknowledging that so many of us are languishing. We can start giving voice to the quiet despair and lighting a path out of the void toward more meaningful work.

[1:10:54] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:10:55] Laura Camien: That's me spark. Uh, that's me spark. And I'm sinking through it. Um that is a spark depicts. That is so fascinating. And you know, Laura, I don't know if this is exactly the struggle that I have been experiencing. I think I I don't know. I I feel like I need to sit with this a little bit longer and consider what what the source of my is it languishing? Is it just between like what is it? But this has given me a lot to think about.

[1:11:35] Laura Camien: Well, I think as I alluded to in the Sparks, if you and I had not started the Sparks File prior to the pandemic, I think that A, we might have been distraught and losing our minds during the pandemic. But I also think we might have come to it during the pandemic. We might have been like, we must articulate our purpose, yeah, something meaningful and make progress toward it. The thing is, we may be languishing in terms of, you know, just the circumstances of this pandemic. But I think that we are making progress towards meaningful work every day. And I think that's been our lifeline. I mean, besides our partners and our loved ones.

[1:12:24] Susan Blackwell: I couldn't agree more. I think it transformed the experience of going through the pandemic to continue to remain curious to have, like Kurt Vonnegut said, to have those deadlines where we had to um surface and craft sparks and we had the accountability of each other that we're going to share with each other. I also think it's the kind of thing we've talked about this before, but where they say if you want to remain like if you want to maintain brain health, learn a language, do crossword puzzles, et cetera. I'm like, oh, we're doing that with the spark file. We're always learning and we can feed it into ourselves, nutrients into ourselves, but also we put it straight back into our teaching work and our coaching work and our creativity.

[1:13:12] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh. And all of this works in concert to do many of the things that you just said. And yes, I think that there's also pieces of this that you can't get around. You have to go through the grieving of it, like loss of life. And just like grief, grief. Grief.

[1:13:37] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:13:38] Laura Camien: Grief. I mean, I think that we again, like, we can have progress towards meaningful work, but we can also be grieving. We can still feel grief, you know. And I I believe we are. So I heard something recently, and it was in preparation to make that spark about right like your parents are dead. And it was somebody, it was one of those authors talking about how each event that you experience is its own separate grief and it must be grieved separately. And so on one tip, I feel like you and I have had this lifeline of creativity and real meaningful connection with each other and with our clients throughout the pandemic. And it has kept us, it has been a life raft. And then there's another separate grief around things, loss of life, political, like you know, the capital breach, things like that.

[1:14:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, the murder of George Floyd, all of those things, Brianna Taylor, like all of those separate things that that must be processed.

[1:14:48] Laura Camien: Grieved.

[1:14:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:14:49] Laura Camien: Yes, processed and grieved separately.

[1:14:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Ooh, you're right. I will say that I'm thankful that we have had this. It's like you say in the introduction that this creative lifeline that we have been able to hold on to throughout this. And I think that that not only do we, you know, get to feel progress in the work that we're doing, but we have this like double celebratory feeling when we see our clients make progress toward the work that they're doing.

[1:15:24] Laura Camien: It's like true. Gift after gift. It's like a cycle of gifts.

[1:15:29] Susan Blackwell: Yep. It is. It is a cycle of inspiration. That is a great spark, and I can't wait to share it. I'm so happy.

[1:15:35] Laura Camien: Yeah. I'm so happy. I loved your spark too. I guess that's it.

[1:15:40] Susan Blackwell: That's it.

[1:15:42] Laura Camien: That's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on Muncie, Lenape, and Seminole Land. And as always, we do hope that it put another bunch of sparks in your file. But listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame and you want to share that, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[1:16:16] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social media at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really does help other listeners find us, especially if you subscribe. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope that you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, you can suck a butt.

[1:16:35] Laura Camien: So elegant.

[1:16:36] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. Suck a butt. Hey! If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing. I don't know. Make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. Don't pickle it.

[1:17:05] Laura Camien: Suck a butt. You gotta take it and make it.

[1:17:11] Susan Blackwell: Oh, friends. Bye.

[1:17:16] Laura Camien: When I bope into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark file. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark fire. Spark fire. I jump into my spark five. Spark. Let's open up the spark fire.