This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump into my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark spot. Spark!

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide. Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, your one stop for creative inspiration.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:46] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell. If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:49] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome.

[0:52] Susan Blackwell: You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are good questions.

[0:59] Laura Camien: And we've got answers, baby cams.

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:08] Laura Camien: And here's the deal. We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:11] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:19] Laura Camien: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:26] Susan Blackwell: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:32] Laura Camien: Or a catalog of daily observations and life's highlights.

[1:41] Susan Blackwell: Or a beautiful musical legacy.

[1:44] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:51] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might make all the things you've always wanted to make.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark.

[2:03] Laura Camien: Hi, baby Kim.

[2:05] Susan Blackwell: Hi.

[2:05] Laura Camien: How are you doing?

[2:06] Susan Blackwell: Virtual hugging you.

[2:08] Laura Camien: Oh you know, if we were in the same room, we wouldn't be hugging right now.

[2:08] Susan Blackwell: We wouldn't.

[2:12] Laura Camien: We'd be separated, so we'd have a nice microphone sound separation.

[2:16] Susan Blackwell: I know.

[2:17] Laura Camien: After a nice long hug, though.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: After a nice long hug and a deep kiss on the mouth.

[2:23] Laura Camien: JK, JK.

[2:28] Susan Blackwell: I have well-documented boundary issues. So there you go.

[2:33] Laura Camien: Um how are you doing, Kim's?

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: Hey, I'm doing good.

[2:36] Laura Camien: I'm doing good.

[2:37] Susan Blackwell: Doing well, I guess.

[2:38] Laura Camien: Well, grammatically correct.

[2:39] Susan Blackwell: I'm doing pretty well.

[2:40] Laura Camien: I'm grammatically correct.

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: And I'm we are nothing if not grammatically correct here on The Spark File.

[2:46] Laura Camien: Is that right?

[2:47] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[2:48] Laura Camien: I'm pretty well.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: I'm pr you know, I know there are a lot of people that are chilling.

[2:54] Laura Camien: I am not one of those people.

[2:55] Susan Blackwell: I am working hard and uh just really trying to be of service and hustling.

[3:03] Laura Camien: And so I feel like I sleep well at night, knowing that I've put in good hard long days of work and hopefully have been of service to people.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: So I'm but I'm good.

[3:13] Laura Camien: I'm happy and I'm healthy and I'm grateful for that health.

[3:17] Susan Blackwell: That's the best.

[3:19] Laura Camien: That's the essential right there.

[3:21] Susan Blackwell: That is it. That is everything right now.

[3:23] Laura Camien: And you also hustling, just hustling.

[3:26] Susan Blackwell: You'll snuffle and snuffle and yes.

[3:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's that's about it.

[3:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:32] Laura Camien: Trying to force myself, you know, to get out of the chair and away from the computer at least a few times a day.

[3:39] Susan Blackwell: Ooh.

[3:39] Laura Camien: Just try to walk around, stretch it out, you know.

[3:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I've been trying in my um classes that I lead online and also in my life to rest my eyeballs.

[3:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:50] Susan Blackwell: Um and to lead the, you know, just different participants to in exercises to like rest eyeballs because I feel like our eyes are doing so much more work.

[4:02] Laura Camien: They are.

[4:03] Susan Blackwell: Um so much more screen time than they would uh typically.

[4:08] Laura Camien: And um, so I'm just really trying to take care.

[4:13] Susan Blackwell: And and so I think today, while we're, you know, when I don't have to be looking at my screen, I'm gonna do an experiment with visualizing you telling me this story.

[4:23] Laura Camien: Sharing this spark gratitude.

[4:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I like that idea.

[4:30] Laura Camien: I'm gonna give you such a spec.

[4:32] Susan Blackwell: Such a spec. You don't even know.

[4:35] Laura Camien: But I like the idea of just closing your eyes, sit back, relax.

[4:40] Susan Blackwell: I'm having a full podcasting experience.

[4:43] Laura Camien: Sound of your voice, my ears.

[4:45] Susan Blackwell: Am I going first?

[4:46] Laura Camien: You are is that a is that a little tip of the hat to uh I think you are because my eyes are shut.

[4:52] Susan Blackwell: So well, then you are ready.

[4:54] Laura Camien: Lean back.

[4:55] Susan Blackwell: My eyes are shut.

[4:57] Laura Camien: I can picture you.

[5:00] Susan Blackwell: I have a good visual of you.

[5:00] Laura Camien: I feel like I've spent like literally at this point years of my life staring at your face, and I love it so much.

[5:06] Susan Blackwell: So I've got a good clear vision.

[5:11] Laura Camien: Okay.

[5:09] Susan Blackwell: And my mind's eye.

[5:15] Laura Camien: Yes.

[5:17] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah.

[5:20] Laura Camien: So, first of all, I should say right from the start, I got inspired.

[5:24] Susan Blackwell: This tiny little baby spark ignited by my friend Kat Huey, who has been doing this thing on her Facebook page ever since the beginning of her quarantine or stay at home order.

[5:39] Laura Camien: She has titled her entries on her Facebook page, Captain's Log Day One or Captain's Log Day Two.

[5:47] Susan Blackwell: First of all, shout out.

[5:49] Laura Camien: Shout out to Kat Huey.

[5:51] Susan Blackwell: Hi.

[5:53] Laura Camien: Cat doesn't even know I'm doing this, so I can't wait to see.

[5:55] Susan Blackwell: She's the best. Surprise, Kat. Hi.

[5:58] Laura Camien: And she actually is a listener to the podcast.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: She is.

[6:02] Laura Camien: And she is actually the best.

[6:04] Susan Blackwell: So that's cool.

[6:05] Laura Camien: And we jumped out of a cake shaped like a podcast.

[6:08] Susan Blackwell: And we're like, um, but you were saying, so she puts on her daily social media updates?

[6:16] Laura Camien: Yeah, like on her Facebook, it'll just be like Captain's Log Day one.

[6:20] Susan Blackwell: And it's such a tiny spark, honestly, but it just caught fire inside of me.

[6:28] Laura Camien: Like something about like the tone of it just felt like she was embarking on a voyage.

[6:36] Susan Blackwell: You know, and and the way that the format, it just distilled down her day, her day's activities, her emotions into like a clear, often bullet pointed list.

[6:49] Laura Camien: And it really spoke to me.

[6:52] Susan Blackwell: Like I loved it wasn't really about the content.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Like I loved what she was writing, of course.

[6:56] Susan Blackwell: It's it was all wonderful and quite interesting.

[6:59] Laura Camien: But for days after I noticed that she was doing that, I couldn't stop thinking about the format of this captain's log.

[7:08] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[7:10] Laura Camien: I just was like, I started asking myself, like, what is it about this captain's log that is sparking me so much?

[7:16] Susan Blackwell: And a couple of things came up.

[7:18] Laura Camien: Number one, you know that I believe in writing my morning pages, like three pages of morning, like stream of consciousness.

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: You will get those pages done.

[7:27] Laura Camien: Play in there.

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: So I I like to do that.

[7:31] Laura Camien: You know, it could be anything from the meaningful to the mundane.

[7:35] Susan Blackwell: But something about the overwhelm lately has well overwhelmed me.

[7:42] Laura Camien: Um, which has been fun.

[7:44] Susan Blackwell: Another thing I thought about the overwhelm is overwhelming.

[7:46] Laura Camien: Isn't it funny that we get used to running on a certain amount of overwhelm?

[7:50] Susan Blackwell: But then there actually is a tipping point when the overwhelm is too much.

[7:55] Laura Camien: It reminds me of like those movies where or I've seen I remember commercials, movies, television shows, where all of a sudden the power dumps out in a skyscraper or a city, you know, where it goes and like all the power dumps out and the blocks of lights go click, click, click, click off, and everything goes dark.

[8:15] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[8:16] Laura Camien: That's what happens to me when I run on overwhelm for too long.

[8:19] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[8:20] Laura Camien: But you can run on overwhelm for a little while.

[8:23] Susan Blackwell: But then there is just a point that's like, nope, we're done with that.

[8:28] Laura Camien: But something, you know, like these morning pages, sometimes when I'm overwhelmed, it's like oh, I don't know.

[8:38] Susan Blackwell: It feels like this captain's log feels like a little bit of taking control by putting my thoughts in in an orderly fashion, you know, like bullet pointed, prioritized, capturing like the factual, most relevant, worthy thoughts on paper.

[8:54] Laura Camien: There's something about that simplification.

[8:56] Susan Blackwell: And then the other thing that struck me, some of this has to do with COVID, I think, some not, but it's like my sense of like my own agency, you know.

[9:08] Laura Camien: I mean, I I guess I'm always aware of my personal agency, of course, but in recent months it's been kind of top of mind, and this was before COVID, even, but the phrase, I'm the captain of my ship.

[9:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[9:21] Laura Camien: Has popped up in my mind and like come into conversation so many times over the past few months.

[9:27] Susan Blackwell: And it hasn't stopped popping up, even during this pandemic.

[9:31] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think I I was noticing like it's really interesting that that thought didn't just go away because there's so many things around me that make me feel powerless right now.

[9:40] Susan Blackwell: No, I mean the waves of change maybe tossing your boat, but you're still the captain of your ship.

[9:46] Laura Camien: You don't just yes.

[9:48] Susan Blackwell: It's uh I mean, it just keeps on resonating for me, like being the captain of my own ship.

[9:53] Laura Camien: So recently, I think I can share this, Suze, like that you and I are taking some business classes together, and in a recent class, someone brought up the idea of like wanting to be an entrepreneur because of the control, like working for yourself is appealing because you have control.

[10:14] Susan Blackwell: And although I felt, I guess, somewhat aligned with what they were saying, I had like a slight adjustment when it when it was my turn to share.

[10:22] Laura Camien: I said, like for me, it's more akin to being the captain of my own ship.

[10:28] Susan Blackwell: I can't control the storms that roll in, or the height of the waves, or the temperature of the water, but I can control how I conduct myself and the decisions I make and the way I lead and the direction we go in.

[10:39] Laura Camien: And the way we respond.

[10:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[10:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: Whether or not I keep my face turned towards the sun.

[10:45] Laura Camien: Like all of that is up to me.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: This metaphor's got legs.

[10:49] Laura Camien: Can I just say you know what?

[10:50] Susan Blackwell: And we've only just begun.

[10:52] Laura Camien: We've only just spoken.

[10:56] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, as we navigate these uncharted waters, I mean, I do find myself going back time and again to this analogy and to these nautical metaphors.

[11:06] Laura Camien: If you'll forgive a few more, I know.

[11:10] Susan Blackwell: They're not revolutionary.

[11:11] Laura Camien: They're not new, but it's like one of those things where you like you've been aware of it for a long time.

[11:16] Susan Blackwell: Of course, I've known what a captain's log is for a long, long time.

[11:20] Laura Camien: And I find them interesting, of course.

[11:23] Susan Blackwell: But in this particular moment in time, it's like rediscovering an old concept and and it feels like it has new life for me right now.

[11:31] Laura Camien: And I'm finding like a new solace and a new peacefulness in it.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: Um, and I I wanted to explore kind of why.

[11:40] Laura Camien: Why is it sparking me?

[11:42] Susan Blackwell: So my spark for today is a deeper exploration of this captain's log, the history and the purpose of it, and what we might learn from the great captains of the sea during this time when we may be feeling adrift.

[11:56] Laura Camien: Cammy.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: I you know what I love about this spark that it really did, it was like such a baby.

[12:02] Laura Camien: This was just like a little tiny baby spark that you were like, I love Kat Huey's daily updates, Captain's Log, quarantine day 72.

[12:11] Susan Blackwell: And you were like, I'm interested in that.

[12:14] Laura Camien: And it caught that little spark, you caught that little spark, and you really are letting it up.

[12:20] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[12:21] Laura Camien: It's so fun to do when you're like, this is a little baby.

[12:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, what happens if I let it grow in my mind, you know, and just see where it goes.

[12:28] Laura Camien: Will it have a papowie moment, Susan?

[12:32] Susan Blackwell: Powee is my favorite word.

[12:34] Laura Camien: It continues to be a word used in our house with such fondness and reverence.

[12:41] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Pottawatomies.

[12:42] Laura Camien: It's lovely great.

[12:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:44] Laura Camien: Life force.

[12:45] Susan Blackwell: So, all right.

[12:46] Laura Camien: So, for me to explore this further first, I had to remind myself like where did this phrase even come from?

[12:53] Susan Blackwell: Of course, I've heard it several times, and I vaguely recalled I think it was from a poem.

[12:59] Laura Camien: Um, and it is, but do you remember who it is?

[13:02] Susan Blackwell: Is it L O G Captain's Log L O Game?

[13:05] Laura Camien: Captain's Log, yeah.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: Um do you know, like what the poem is that I'm I'm the captain of my ship.

[13:12] Laura Camien: Do you know this reference?

[13:14] Susan Blackwell: I I know I know it, but I can't know it.

[13:14] Laura Camien: I can't.

[13:18] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I do, yeah.

[13:19] Laura Camien: I'm gonna share it with you.

[13:21] Susan Blackwell: Um, because I also was like, what the heck?

[13:24] Laura Camien: I'm it's just on the tip of my tongue.

[13:26] Susan Blackwell: But it is from a famous poem called Invictus.

[13:30] Laura Camien: I know this poem.

[13:31] Susan Blackwell: You know this poem.

[13:34] Laura Camien: This poem is amazing.

[13:37] Susan Blackwell: Fantastic.

[13:38] Laura Camien: So this poem was written in 1875 by William Ernest Henley.

[13:44] Susan Blackwell: And he wrote this poem when he was 26 years old.

[13:47] Laura Camien: By then he had already had a pretty damn difficult life.

[13:52] Susan Blackwell: All right, so here I'll read the poem for those of you who don't know it, or maybe you need a refresher.

[14:00] Laura Camien: Out of the night that covers me, black as the pit from pole to pole.

[14:05] Susan Blackwell: I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul.

[14:10] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[14:11] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[14:12] Laura Camien: In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud.

[14:18] Susan Blackwell: Under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody but unbowed.

[14:23] Laura Camien: Beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the horror of the shade, and yet the menace of the years finds and will find me unafraid.

[14:34] Susan Blackwell: It matters not how straight the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll.

[14:40] Laura Camien: I am the master of my fate.

[14:51] Susan Blackwell: Black wow.

[15:01] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes. Love them. Love everything about them. Love all of the goodness that they have brought into my life and the lives of many others. They have this program where they have increasingly more difficult workouts. And they, before like the hardest workouts, they would read that poem, and then they would crank the music, and you would start to swing your kettlebells.

[15:26] Laura Camien: Oh yeah.

[15:27] Susan Blackwell: Because it was sort of sounds kind of crazy for a gym, but it was like, yeah, like it was so getting through the hard stuff. It's about getting through that hard stuff. And it really is um, I feel like oh, that poem. Um this this spark is great. Sorry, keep it.

[15:49] Laura Camien: Thanks.

[15:49] Susan Blackwell: No, no, no, no. I'm so glad. Um I from what I understand, Nelson Mandela would like recite this poem when he was in prison. I think just to uh keep his morale alive, to keep his, you know, um belief in place that he, you know, in a moment when you feel obviously so powerless. I think that so this poem, like the language is really bleak, obviously, and violent, but it gives you a sense of what um Henley experienced and what he went through.

[16:24] Laura Camien: But I did a little deeper dive just to find out out of curiosity. Like he wrote this when he was 26. It sounds like someone who's really been like through the ringer, right?

[16:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And like will you read the first um the first little piece again?

[16:39] Laura Camien: Out of the night that covers me, black as the pit from pole to pole.

[16:44] Susan Blackwell: Okay, that's pretty dark.

[16:46] Laura Camien: Yes, yes. I think whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul.

[16:51] Susan Blackwell: But I think the violent part for me was like under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody but unbowed.

[16:59] Laura Camien: Yeah, like chance, like because he really did believe that uh he was an atheist. I'll talk a little bit about that later, but he uh believed that all of this was random. So the things that happened to him, and he was bludgeoned by these circumstances of chance and was not going to be broken by them. But he didn't believe in this concept of like it's all for a reason, and why is this, you know, like about me in some way. He didn't really take that stance.

[17:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, let me tell you a little bit about what he went through. So as a child, he contracted tuberculosis of the bone.

[17:38] Laura Camien: Oh, and what? What?

[17:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Is that a thing?

[17:41] Laura Camien: It is a thing.

[17:43] Susan Blackwell: In 1875, it's a thing.

[17:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[17:46] Susan Blackwell: I never heard of it.

[17:48] Laura Camien: That doesn't sound like it would not be painful.

[17:51] Susan Blackwell: No. Let me tell you more about it. He eventually had to have his leg amputated below the knee when he was around 12. And apparently he went through these long periods of extreme pain because they had to drain the abscesses in his joints that formed due to the tuberculosis.

[18:11] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[18:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it just sounds awful. The abscesses sound awful and the draining of the abscesses sounds awful.

[18:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:20] Susan Blackwell: And in 1870 or 18, I don't know, when 1865 when that would have been.

[18:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:40] Susan Blackwell: But despite being in pain, his brother described him in moments when he would quote, hop around the room laughing loudly and playing with zest to pretend that he was beyond the reach of pain.

[18:55] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[18:57] Susan Blackwell: Later, Henley became very good friends with Robert Lewis Stevenson, who wrote Treasure Island, among other things. And that book introduced us to a character named Long John Silver. In a letter that Stevenson wrote to Henley, he said, I will now make a confession. It was the site of your maimed strength and masterfulness that begot Long John Silver. The idea of the maimed man ruling and dreaded by the sound was entirely taken from you.

[19:30] Laura Camien: Oh my god, he was the spark for Long John Silver.

[19:33] Susan Blackwell: He was the spark for Long John Silver. And Stevenson's stepson described Henley as quote a great glowing, massive shouldered fellow with a big red beard and a crutch. Jovial, astoundingly clever, and with a laugh that rolled like music. He had an unimaginable fire and vitality. He swept one off one's feet.

[19:52] Laura Camien: Wow.

[20:00] Susan Blackwell: So it's so interesting to think about like the dichotomy of this person who's in such physical pain, but is like really pushing themselves to be light and laughter and joy.

[20:14] Laura Camien: You know what it sounds like to me though.

[20:17] Susan Blackwell: He was the captain of his soul.

[20:20] Laura Camien: Like he was a man.

[20:20] Susan Blackwell: He was the captain of the soul. He had a uh significant well-formed sense of personal agency and choice about like how he was going to respond to the determination and the and the challenge. I I mean, it's to me, it's it's astonishing the determination that he had. I mean, it feels some somewhat like powering through, but doing it until it becomes you who you are. You know, he was someone who was going to enjoy his life regardless.

[21:02] Laura Camien: Now, I'm not going to say that he didn't turn and get a little bit darker. He did. So I don't want to create too, you know, jovial of a picture.

[21:10] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, this isn't Santa Claus to the Santa Claus. So he had other pains in his life that were less um, less about infectious airborne disease, which we're all thinking about now. Um, but his father died when he was in his 20s. His uh Henley's only child, he had a daughter, Margaret, and she died from meningitis when she was five years old.

[21:36] Laura Camien: Oh, heartbreaking.

[21:38] Susan Blackwell: There were times in his life when he would spend long stretches of time in the hospital. And by long, I mean like three years at a time in the hospital.

[21:48] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[21:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. One stay was three years long. And during that time, he wrote a book of poetry called In Hospital.

[21:56] Laura Camien: So from what I can tell though, it seems like sorry to interrupt you, but talk about being creative.

[22:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, like in a time where I think sometimes people have this mistaken idea that to be creative, you have to be like sort of grounded and peaceful, and I have the muse sitting on your shoulder and sunlight beaming through the window into your studio. And it isn't that. I mean, if you're and and imagine, so if you've ever uh loved and lost, had your heart broken, sometimes those are the most creatively fertile periods.

[22:34] Laura Camien: And that's right, you know, you experience music and other things in a whole new way.

[22:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And sometimes you're in hospital and you write a book of poetry titled in hospital. But I just wanted to just say that it we don't have to wait for this pristine perfect circumstances to be creative. And I loved that he took his experiences. This is we talk about this all the time, Camion. If you have to live through it, you might as well make something out of it. And doing that. So I love that.

[23:01] Laura Camien: I do too.

[23:03] Susan Blackwell: I really do. And that, you know, given all this that he went through, he wrote, you know, like in Victus, the a powerful poem about personal agency and personal choice.

[23:19] Laura Camien: So I I love that. I think that from what I can tell, he seem it seemed like eventually he grew to be quite angry and bitter, and he would release most of that anger in his work as a literary critic. Apparently, he could be absolutely brutal if he didn't like your work.

[23:39] Susan Blackwell: No, he I don't think he suffered fools. You know what I mean? I think he was one of those people who was like not having it.

[23:42] Laura Camien: Yes.

[23:47] Susan Blackwell: I'm sorry to hear though, it sounds like he kind of um something shifted in him.

[23:52] Laura Camien: And yeah, I mean I think there's only so much a person can take, but I do think about how his brother described him like hopping around the room, laughing loudly and playing with zest to and I love this phrase pretend he was beyond the reach of pain.

[24:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it makes me think of someone who's like, you know, toughing it out, sucking it up, buttercup. Um I commend that uh choice, you know, if that's what gets you through, that's what gets you through. But I'm also thankful that you know, we're living in a time when like powering through is not our only choice.

[24:28] Laura Camien: Yes, you know, in this day and age, I think we're more accepting of feel it, go through it, you know, um, in ways that, and in particular, men, frankly, weren't always allowed to have their emotions um or or the the feeling of being weak or being perceived as weak or in pain, like that was a real struggle. Nonetheless, he left us with a metaphor that is incredibly powerful and powerful enough to withstand 150 years and still be something that resonates for all of us.

[25:03] Susan Blackwell: You know, being the captain of our own fate can be such a scary concept. And I think that over time, many people criticized his poem because he was an atheist and they felt like he was trying to say that uh God has no power in this.

[25:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[25:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah. That God has no power in this. But I don't actually think those two are but if you're saying, is it I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul. Well, that is saying, you know, if you're somebody, this gets complicated and theological really quickly, but if you're somebody who thinks that your fate is being decreed by some higher power, you know what I mean? If you ascribe to that, and you have somebody who's boldly declaring in their poetry, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul. Like, yeah, I can see how people could get um snippety about that. It's an absolute like direct threat to their um, you know, their philosophy and the belief system that they're issuing.

[26:16] Laura Camien: But I think that in my personal opinion, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive because I think it's about believing in free will. So, regardless of whether or not you believe in God or which God you believe in, if you believe that you were born with free will, then you can be the captain of your fate. You can be the captain of your soul.

[26:38] Susan Blackwell: So I find it interesting though that in my research, a number of like religious sites or religious people would in particular point out this poem and kind of um I don't know, write an entire like blog post after blog post over uh you know how it's not true and why it's not true. But um just for me, I just keep going back to personal agency and you know, um, like I said, free will. So if if God gave you the ability to make the choice of you know how you're gonna respond to your circumstances, then that is in fact being the master of your soul. To me, like I get to choose how I'm gonna react to this situation, this pandemic or this annoyance at work or this fight with my parents, whatever it is. Like I get to choose my next step.

[27:30] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:34] Susan Blackwell: So that leads me back to my captain's log. Since the beginning of time that we know of, since any kind of organized civilization, I should say, um, ships have kept logs of their locations and the details of their journeys. And these can be called ship logs, deck log, captain's log, or just logbook. They have a lot of names.

[27:55] Laura Camien: Um, but essentially the logbooks are a firsthand account of what went on on the ship. So it might be really mundane, it might be the day-to-day details of what the crew did, daily accounts of the weather, but it could also be like scientific information gathered during the voyage, meteorological observations, like um things they encountered when they um hit land. You know, like there are a lot of things that we learn from these logbooks.

[28:29] Susan Blackwell: So for centuries, like captains and commanders of all kinds of ships kept these journals and logbooks that help us understand like what life was like during their time.

[28:39] Laura Camien: Yes.

[28:39] Susan Blackwell: And you've talked this is not the first time we've talked about something similar to this. You did that fantastic spark about going into the Amazon with Colonel.

[28:49] Laura Camien: Oh, yes.

[28:51] Susan Blackwell: And how so much of what we know now about Colonel Fawcett and his journeys was recorded in something similar.

[28:59] Laura Camien: I guess it wouldn't be a ship's log necessarily.

[29:03] Susan Blackwell: But it's a logbook, yeah.

[29:05] Laura Camien: And adventurers and explorers of all kinds, whether they're on water or land, yes, or air, um, kept logic.

[29:12] Susan Blackwell: Today we found a spider the size of a chihuahua.

[29:15] Laura Camien: That's what I think exactly, exactly right.

[29:18] Susan Blackwell: And sketches in my, you know, for those two snouts. This is a dog with two snouts. Good memory, Suze.

[29:26] Laura Camien: I love the spark. That is a that is like a gold star spark to me. If you, if you don't know what we're talking about, we Cammy did a great spark on Colonel Percy Fawcett.

[29:36] Susan Blackwell: Is that his name?

[29:37] Laura Camien: That's exactly right.

[29:38] Susan Blackwell: Colonel Percy Fawcett and The Lost City of Z.

[29:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:42] Susan Blackwell: So go back and check it out because it will blow minds. So yeah, we've learned uh details of um, you know, foreign lands. Um, we've learned details of war from logbooks. We can understand um more about like early explorers, ships that traveled from country to country for trade purposes.

[30:04] Laura Camien: Um we learned about diseases and their transport across oceans as they like yes, they record the health of the people on board.

[30:12] Susan Blackwell: So you have like this little capsule.

[30:15] Laura Camien: Of course.

[30:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and it might be like, uh, Mike Smith, you know, um whatever.

[30:22] Laura Camien: I don't, I couldn't even think of a crew position.

[30:25] Susan Blackwell: But dishwasher Mike Smith came down with the flu and stayed in bed today, right?

[30:32] Laura Camien: Um and then you wake up the next day and you're like six more people came down with the flu today.

[30:38] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[30:39] Laura Camien: Um, and you can see, you know, these um episodes of disease.

[30:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:44] Laura Camien: That's right.

[30:45] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[30:46] Laura Camien: Um they even catalog animals and plants that they encounter.

[30:50] Susan Blackwell: So there's a history of botany and biology to be told through log books.

[30:54] Laura Camien: Dogs with two snippets.

[30:56] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[30:57] Laura Camien: Did you read um Elizabeth Gilbert's book?

[31:01] Susan Blackwell: Um, it's the one about the botanist.

[31:04] Laura Camien: Um this woman.

[31:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I did.

[31:07] Laura Camien: It's a really, really, really enormous book, like for a novel.

[31:12] Susan Blackwell: It's huge, but her research was intense.

[31:17] Laura Camien: I couldn't believe the amount of like botany research.

[31:22] Susan Blackwell: Plants and this woman's.

[31:25] Laura Camien: It's a lot of botany.

[31:26] Susan Blackwell: And I've never used the word botany so many times.

[31:29] Laura Camien: It's a lot of botany.

[31:31] Susan Blackwell: Keep going.

[31:31] Laura Camien: Botany, botany, botany.

[31:33] Susan Blackwell: Botany, botany, botany.

[31:34] Laura Camien: The more you say it, the less it looks like the word on the page.

[31:37] Susan Blackwell: Botany.

[31:38] Laura Camien: But anyway, I digress.

[31:41] Susan Blackwell: Um, so the National Archives held many, many log books from the history of the Earth.

[31:46] Laura Camien: And a few years ago, there was a book called Tales from the Captain's Log, and it's a collection of excerpts from like Captain James Cook, Blackbeard, Charles Darwin.

[31:58] Susan Blackwell: I mean, Charles Darwin, don't you want to know what's in his logbook?

[32:02] Laura Camien: Like I on the Beagle from his voyage on the Beagle.

[32:06] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[32:07] Laura Camien: That's the ship you.

[32:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[32:09] Laura Camien: Yes.

[32:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm so impressed.

[32:10] Laura Camien: I'm so impressed.

[32:12] Susan Blackwell: I really was, yeah, really pulled that out of my butt.

[32:15] Laura Camien: Mmm.

[32:16] Susan Blackwell: Great.

[32:16] Laura Camien: And excellent visuals in this episode of the Sparks File.

[32:22] Susan Blackwell: So one of the more famous and more modern Captain's logs is, of course, from Star Trek.

[32:30] Laura Camien: Recently, William Shatner has gotten on Twitter and resumed the mantle of Captain Kirk and reported Captain's Log, Stardate One of Self-imposed Isolation.

[32:42] Susan Blackwell: After having arrived at Planet Home, I was warmly greeted by emissaries, Espresso and Macchiato.

[32:49] Laura Camien: I look forward to my planned respite from my normal duties.

[32:53] Susan Blackwell: Kirk out.

[32:55] Laura Camien: Which I think, like when I mentioned Captain's Log to anyone, most people were like, oh yeah, like Star Trek.

[33:01] Susan Blackwell: So that's a more recent and more modern take on it.

[33:04] Laura Camien: Also, recently, a captain of the ship, like, I don't know this whole story.

[33:10] Susan Blackwell: I was just thinking about that the Navy captain that was fired recently.

[33:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:17] Susan Blackwell: I bet his captain's log is really interesting.

[33:21] Laura Camien: Ooh, that would be a bestseller.

[33:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, because he was cataloging the disease on his ship, COVID-19, and he was asking for help in various ways, and then eventually went outside of the chain of command and then got fired for doing so.

[33:35] Laura Camien: Um, but I think it would be really interesting to read what was happening on that ship.

[33:40] Susan Blackwell: Can I ask you in your research? Does does the captain the captain doesn't have time to write this?

[33:47] Laura Camien: Surely it's sort of like consistent.

[33:49] Susan Blackwell: There are two different, well, at least two log books that I know of. There used to be like one called the ship's log, and certainly the captain didn't write that.

[34:00] Laura Camien: That is like every detail of what's going on secretary.

[34:05] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[34:05] Laura Camien: The class secretary is writing that.

[34:08] Susan Blackwell: The captain, that's why I'm loving like this concept as a journal practice, because the captain would hit on the highlights and the prior.

[34:19] Laura Camien: It's top line, basically.

[34:21] Susan Blackwell: The captain would be like, here are the essential things that happen, or my observation from my position as the master of this ship.

[34:31] Laura Camien: And so as a journal practice for me, it means like in my position as the master of my soul, here are the observations of the things I see and feel going on around me and within me.

[34:45] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[34:45] Laura Camien: So I I think for sure that the logbooks, like the captain's log is always top top line.

[34:53] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[34:53] Laura Camien: Um kept by the captain, it sounds like.

[34:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[34:57] Laura Camien: Yes.

[34:57] Susan Blackwell: Another interesting thing for captain's log is that they're not typically overly emotional.

[35:04] Laura Camien: They are factual observances.

[35:07] Susan Blackwell: And there's something facts.

[35:08] Laura Camien: Facts, facts, facts.

[35:09] Susan Blackwell: There's something really interesting about that, I think it might be the key to why I'm drawn to it right now in this particular moment that it's not about what they were feeling so much about as what they knew.

[35:25] Laura Camien: You know, so some more concrete things.

[35:28] Susan Blackwell: And maybe that's also why I'm magnetized towards this right now, is that I just I want to deal with things that I know because there are so many things that are unknowable right now.

[35:39] Laura Camien: Yes.

[35:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[35:40] Laura Camien: Facts, facts, facts.

[35:42] Susan Blackwell: Facts, facts, facts.

[35:43] Laura Camien: So it's really empowering.

[35:44] Susan Blackwell: And it's been sparking me so much that, of course, obviously I wanted to share it with you and with others.

[35:50] Laura Camien: If it sparks you, please feel free to take it and make it.

[35:52] Susan Blackwell: We can all thank Kat Huey for this idea.

[35:55] Laura Camien: Thanks, Kat.

[35:55] Susan Blackwell: I I am sparked, I have to say.

[35:57] Laura Camien: What could you make of it?

[35:58] Susan Blackwell: Right?

[35:59] Laura Camien: What do we make of this?

[36:00] Susan Blackwell: So obviously your own leather bound captain's log and using a scroll and ink and scroll.

[36:09] Laura Camien: Like a little quill.

[36:11] Susan Blackwell: In the little quill.

[36:12] Laura Camien: That's right.

[36:13] Susan Blackwell: Um if you are writing, if you're a writer, you can use the captain's log quite successfully, like as a as the narrator.

[36:22] Laura Camien: You can see that in a little writing convention.

[36:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, Star Trek, but Twin Peaks did it with like Agent Cooper's dictaphone.

[36:29] Laura Camien: No, the X-Files, like Mulder and Scully sometimes used it as a device.

[36:35] Susan Blackwell: Clever, clever.

[36:36] Laura Camien: World War Z, they did it, but sort of in interview form.

[36:41] Susan Blackwell: Um, if you are into history, you can research log books.

[36:45] Laura Camien: Like there are incredible tales to tell.

[36:48] Susan Blackwell: Ooh, this is when I learned this was not on a ship, but I read about supposedly like during the race, uh, explorers were racing to kind of claim the South Pole, like the first expedition to get to the South Pole.

[37:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:05] Susan Blackwell: So these two explorers were on separate expeditions, and both of them kept essentially captain logs.

[37:12] Laura Camien: One of them arrived there and was credited with discovering the South Pole.

[37:17] Susan Blackwell: Hooray.

[37:17] Laura Camien: Ammonson, I think.

[37:18] Susan Blackwell: Amundson was his name.

[37:20] Laura Camien: And the other one arrived one month later.

[37:25] Susan Blackwell: He and his team were literally devastated to arrive too late.

[37:30] Laura Camien: And you have to understand, like, people don't know what else is going on.

[37:35] Susan Blackwell: So you don't know.

[37:36] Laura Camien: You're thinking like we're gonna get there, we're gonna make it just survive, we're gonna be able to stake our claim on the South Pole.

[37:43] Susan Blackwell: Only to find like the little souvenir shop came and went because the other guy arrived here a month ago.

[37:52] Laura Camien: But hey, good luck to you.

[37:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, but all jokes aside, the second team, they all died on the way back home.

[38:03] Laura Camien: All of them.

[38:04] Susan Blackwell: And so not only did they come in second.

[38:09] Laura Camien: That's right.

[38:10] Susan Blackwell: They all died on the way home.

[38:12] Laura Camien: I have to believe some of that was the spirit, like just the kick in the gut when you are sustaining on fumes anyway.

[38:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:24] Laura Camien: So they all died on the way home.

[38:27] Susan Blackwell: The final entry of the captain's log, essentially, was last entry, for God's sake, look after our people.

[38:39] Laura Camien: Oh.

[38:40] Susan Blackwell: What's so interesting is because Captain's logs were not often very emotional.

[38:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:46] Susan Blackwell: Whenever they do emote, it is super powerful because you know, this guy in charge isn't typically prone to writing down any superfluous uh emotional information.

[39:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:01] Susan Blackwell: So, you know, it's very impactful when they do.

[39:04] Laura Camien: Jeez.

[39:05] Susan Blackwell: So there's that.

[39:06] Laura Camien: Um, a book of poetry called In Pandemic.

[39:09] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[39:10] Laura Camien: Just kidding.

[39:11] Susan Blackwell: Take one from Henley.

[39:13] Laura Camien: In hospital in pandemic.

[39:15] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I think too soon, sorry.

[39:20] Laura Camien: The really for me, it's about a daily habit of observations.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: Like you don't have to be like William Ernest Henley.

[39:29] Laura Camien: You don't have to like power through.

[39:30] Susan Blackwell: You can cry when you need to, laugh when you feel like it, even at the absurdity of all of this, just it's like checking in with yourself and trying to notate what you need, basically.

[39:42] Laura Camien: And this this made me think of um, you know, the guidance that is often offered when you feel an anxiety attack coming on.

[39:51] Susan Blackwell: I don't know. I I feel like you're probably familiar with this, Susan, but when you have an anxiety attack, um, the way to minimize it is to disrupt your brain.

[40:01] Laura Camien: Obviously, it's the similar, it's a similar concept.

[40:04] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Disrupt your brain from the monkey mind from the worry from lighting up the amygdala.

[40:12] Laura Camien: And they say to focus on five things you can see, four things you can physically feel, three things you can hear, two things you can smell, one thing you can taste.

[40:24] Susan Blackwell: So you go through this process of okay, what are the things in this room that I can see? I can see my hands, I can see the sky, I can see a plant on my desk, four things I can feel. I can feel my feet on the ground, I can feel my hair on my neck, you know what I mean?

[40:45] Laura Camien: Um, and you are essentially then you're going further and further inward.

[40:49] Susan Blackwell: I can hear the wind blowing, I can hear the sound of Susan's voice, I can hear the tea kettle boiling.

[41:01] Laura Camien: You know, I've I've never done this specific exercise.

[41:04] Susan Blackwell: I love this.

[41:06] Laura Camien: I thought you would.

[41:07] Susan Blackwell: Um, I just I crazily enough, uh, when I started to feel anxiety a couple years ago, pretty intensely I just learned this little habit.

[41:21] Laura Camien: And it really uh just focuses you in on your physical self, uh, your physical surroundings and your and then your inner self, because then you're like two things you can smell, one thing you can taste.

[41:33] Susan Blackwell: And for me, I think the captain's log is kind of serving this purpose. Like, what are the things I know to be true? Check in with my body. How am I feeling? What's going on with me physically?

[41:46] Laura Camien: Yes.

[41:47] Susan Blackwell: What emotional observations? Not this is not about like this isn't my three pages of writing about the emotions, but just the observation. Cried for five minutes after lunch, felt tired by 8 p.m., you know what I mean? Uh slept until nine.

[42:05] Laura Camien: So I feel when I'm writing my captain's log for the day, I'm really putting myself in the center of things.

[42:11] Susan Blackwell: I'm behind the wheel in the driver's seat.

[42:14] Laura Camien: And it's less about what's happening to me and the emotions that arose from those things. It's more about what do I see ahead? What storms are on the horizon? Where's the clear water? What decisions will I make to steer myself and my life in the direction that I want to go?

[42:31] Susan Blackwell: I love this.

[42:33] Laura Camien: So I maybe I'm taking this tiny tiny spark and going too far with it, but I think you're just right.

[42:40] Susan Blackwell: It just feels right right now.

[42:42] Laura Camien: Like I'm really craving the sense of um agency and and this feeling of I am the master of my soul.

[42:52] Susan Blackwell: All of this may be happening.

[42:54] Laura Camien: A pandemic may be happening, but I can regulate what I do in these moments.

[43:04] Susan Blackwell: In response.

[43:05] Laura Camien: And how I yeah, how I respond.

[43:07] Susan Blackwell: So say this one more time. It's five things I can see, four things I can feel, physically feel, three things I can hear, two things I can smell, and one thing I can taste.

[43:25] Laura Camien: I love this just as a way to come into the present moment.

[43:30] Susan Blackwell: Um, I feel like so much of my anxiety is um either casting to the future and projecting things that are scary movies about what possible outcomes could happen.

[43:46] Laura Camien: That's right.

[43:46] Susan Blackwell: But a lot of times, this is the amazing the way the mind works, those things that I'm projecting are old things from my past that I've actually lived through, or things that I have seen other people on the news, uh depicted in movies, et cetera, that I project into a potential future.

[44:09] Laura Camien: And it's not a fun happiness.

[44:11] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[44:12] Laura Camien: So it's it's what you're describing, I like very much because it sort of brings you into the present moment.

[44:19] Susan Blackwell: And when I'm in the present moment, like right now, um all is safe and well and I feel very fortunate.

[44:26] Laura Camien: I can breathe.

[44:27] Susan Blackwell: I am not ill that I know of.

[44:30] Laura Camien: So I I really appreciate that.

[44:32] Susan Blackwell: And so happy.

[44:34] Laura Camien: Yeah, I have ideas about this captain's log too. I keep a bullet journal.

[44:38] Susan Blackwell: So I already sort of have my own leather bound tome that I keep by my side.

[44:44] Laura Camien: And I was just thinking I do a thing where I just do sort of I leave a page in each month for just as things happen. Like it could be just events that happen.

[44:58] Laura Camien: It could be some significant trip that we did or if somebody passed away or somebody was born or we celebrated somebody's birthday just like these significant events.

[45:10] Susan Blackwell: We went to see a Broadway show. The first papa called me Oprah called me the first Popowis of spring came through things like that. And I just think I what if it wasn't just like I kept a few things every month but what if it was what you're describing which is more like a what my friend Mars calls her daily diary, where every single day at the end of the day, she just does a series of bullet points about what happened that day.

[45:38] Laura Camien: And she's done it since she was very young. And she has all of them from her life. I think that's incredible.

[45:46] Susan Blackwell: Isn't it amazing? And it's all it's not digital, it's all kept by hand. And I will tell you, in addition to being like, she can tell you if the police knocked on our door and they were like, Where were you the night of March 23rd? She can tell you.

[46:02] Laura Camien: I don't know if I could, but she could. I can't account for my time. I'll probably don't know her on March 23rd because she'll be my alibi. But yeah, she also like there have been times when um she has had to like for tax, like if she's audited for her taxes, she can she has used her diary as sort of like, oh no, no, no, see, this is the and and it's been um super useful to her in a bunch of different ways. But I also help her, I think it helps her just like mark the passage of time and of life and of changing seasons and the growth of children. And I've just always loved it. I admire it so much as a ritual that she keeps.

[46:43] Laura Camien: Yeah, I love this idea. I I'm so envious of that too, because there's so many rituals that I either think about starting, want to start, or do start. And I have such regret that I didn't start them sooner, you know, and and that's kind of a little hump I have to get over always, because to me that is the fantasy of like, oh, what if I had been doing this my whole life? And she has been.

[47:07] Susan Blackwell: That's amazing.

[47:08] Laura Camien: Yeah, but you've been doing your morning pages, that's not another girl.

[47:11] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I go through phases of like, oh wow, look at these five journals of full pretty. And then, you know, I do okay. What do you think? Do you think you're gonna start a captain's log and keep it?

[47:22] Laura Camien: Yeah, for sure. I have already. I have already. And it will be like my journey through a pandemic, essentially. Oh, came you know what I love about this sparks on sparks here's what I love I heard somebody say this and I loved I loved it I heard a writer say if you have ever wanted to write if that has ever been something that you're like I I wish I wrote I would I would love to write this is a great time to start taking notes just start taking notes because this is historic what we're living through it's historic start taking those notes because it could be the spark of just something wonderful lasting and historic that you could write and could be um a a family heirloom like it could be when you know generations from now they're like did our family go through a pandemic why yes we did and here is your grandma here's the here's your grandma's captain log this is how they got through it scrabble by candlelight there you go yeah so Suze um trigger warning for cheesy metaphors here's my wrap up whether whether you think you're you're on a journey an adventure or a voyage whether you're on a wooden ship a sleek sailboat or maybe you're a monkey driving a speed boat okay rather than being adrift at sea washed up on shore or bouncing around with the waves you can decide to be the master of your fate, captain of your soul.

[49:06] Susan Blackwell: We'll even throw you a line.

[49:10] Laura Camien: Nerds.

[49:11] Susan Blackwell: This is a podcast for nerds.

[49:13] Laura Camien: Spark, well done.

[49:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thank you.

[49:16] Laura Camien: Thanks so much. I can't wait to hear your spark.

[49:20] Susan Blackwell: In just a second, we'll be right back.

[49:24] Laura Camien: So Cammy.

[49:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, Blackwell.

[49:27] Laura Camien: Baby cams. I experienced a spark file first, uh, crafting this spark. I was having a conversation with Nathan about this article he had read. It was a 2015 Rolling Stone interview with this artist that we love. And he kept reading me quotes from this article, and I was like, damn, that is a spark. There's another spark. There's another spark. I mean, he was just like, like, babe, listen to this, and just like give I don't know. He doesn't really talk like that.

[49:53] Susan Blackwell: Boob, blue blue.

[49:55] Laura Camien: Hey, I set to work on researching and crafting my little spark about this very sparkish person. Uh, in the midst of this, I was like, Nathan, this is a spark. And he was like, I know, baby, that's why I'm telling you this. But then I know. And then I'm I'm crafting the spark, and then just uh just right in the middle of the crafting of the spark, the subject of my spark passed away.

[50:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh no, yeah.

[50:20] Laura Camien: Uh so my spark today is both an exploration and a tribute uh to my spark subject, and that person was Bill Withers.

[50:31] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah.

[50:32] Laura Camien: So my yeah, it's uh it was so shocking, just because I felt like I was all up in Bill Withers's business, and then I I I couldn't believe it. I got the news alert on my phone, and I was like, Are you kidding me, guys? I just couldn't believe it.

[50:49] Susan Blackwell: I remember that day, and I I remember thinking like this fucking pandemic. Like normally the world would at least take a pause and you know, recognize the lives of people, you know, like the Withers in a time, you know, in their just to recognize their life during normal times.

[51:13] Laura Camien: The new cyclist is chock a block.

[51:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[51:16] Laura Camien: So let us take that time now.

[51:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes.

[51:19] Laura Camien: So my spark sources include a 2015 Rolling Stone article entitled The Man Who Walked Away by Andy Green, a piece in the New York Times by the poet and cultural critic Hanif Abdurraqib, an obituary written for NPR by Anastasia Tzulkis, and the 2009 documentary Still Bill. Let us talk about Bill Withers.

[51:43] Susan Blackwell: Born on the 4th of July in 1938, William Harrison Withers Jr. was the son of a coal miner in Slab Fork, West Virginia.

[51:53] Laura Camien: Oh, I did a little research on Google Maps, and I wanted to see if I dropped myself down in Slab Fork, what would that look like? And it really does just look like a little little highway, little Dinkis rural road with a railroad track to haul coal and sort of some trailer homes and old coal housing.

[52:15] Susan Blackwell: There's a creek, but that's it. That's there's not a lot there.

[52:20] Laura Camien: Bill was one of 13 children in his family.

[52:24] Susan Blackwell: Wait, back it up. 13 kids, six survived infancy.

[52:29] Laura Camien: Oh my god, his mom.

[52:31] Susan Blackwell: His mom gave birth to 13 children, and only six survived. That's a lot of loss. And on top of that, Bill's father died when Bill was just 13 years old. And soon after that, another tragedy struck the family. His older brother, who was his, he called him his social idol, got hurt in the coal mines. He got crushed by a coal cart.

[52:55] Laura Camien: So his older brother wasn't able to work in the mines anymore. And he watched his brother become a mailman.

[53:02] Susan Blackwell: And when that happened, Bill saw a way out of the mines for himself, too. In fact, Bill Withers was the first man in his family not to go into the mines, which is amazing.

[53:17] Laura Camien: So he never himself worked in the mines. Like he circumvented that preordained future, basically.

[53:26] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's right. Amazing.

[53:28] Laura Camien: So then Bill grew up with a stutter. He had it from childhood all the way into adulthood. He said he had a very hard time fitting in. These are his words. When you stutter, people have a tendency to disregard you.

[53:42] Susan Blackwell: In the 2009 documentary, Still Bill, he talked about how there were all these dumb folk remedies people would try. Like if he stuttered, he would get hit in the face with a dish towel.

[53:54] Laura Camien: Which sounds I know, awful. He also said he had a teacher and others who disparaged his intelligence and his capabilities because of his stutter, which he did not like at all. Um, then there was the racism that was a way of life in his youth. To give you some context, his grandfather was born into slavery.

[54:14] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[54:15] Laura Camien: Yeah. His grandfather was an enslaved person until slavery was abolished when his grandfather was nine years old.

[54:24] Susan Blackwell: That's think how close think of your own grandfather. Think how close that feels and to have that be the reality. But it's not surprising, but he was born in what 1938. I mean, you're still a long ways away from you know, an integrated society in any way.

[54:46] Laura Camien: Um aren't we still?

[54:48] Susan Blackwell: Um Bill said one of the first things I learned when I was around four was that if you made a mistake and go into a white woman's bathroom, they're going to kill your father. That was one of the first things he learned when he was four, just to give you sort of like the the an idea of the culture that he was born into.

[55:10] Laura Camien: That's right. He was also a teenager when Emmett Till was beaten to death by two men who were cleared of all charges by an all-white jury.

[55:18] Susan Blackwell: So if you're not familiar with the story, Emmett Till was a 14-year-old from Chicago who allegedly whistled at a white woman while visiting relatives in Mississippi. That's it. And that was alleged.

[55:31] Laura Camien: So that was in the air. Um around that time, Bill said, Till was right around my age, and I thought, didn't he know better? But yeah, you know, it allegedly, he allegedly whistled at a white woman. Um, but that's the kind of that's what was in the air, and that was what was in the culture at that time.

[55:50] Susan Blackwell: That's very much like keep your head down, don't make eye contact, just try to get through the world without getting yourself into trouble.

[55:58] Laura Camien: And it would be perceived as you getting yourself into trouble as opposed to, you know, someone the thing that's interesting to me about him growing up in that culture is I think it informed the way he navigated other chapters in his life and what he would not tolerate.

[56:13] Susan Blackwell: Um, I respect, I respect that and enjoy 100%. I mean, all of that, you don't witness that and not have it like um ingrained in your brain.

[56:25] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[56:27] Susan Blackwell: So he was desperate to get out of slab fork. And right after graduating from high school in 1965, he enlisted in the Navy.

[56:35] Laura Camien: And though Harry Truman had desegregated the armed forces eight years earlier, Withers discovered that didn't mean much at his first naval base in Pensacola, Florida.

[56:45] Susan Blackwell: He said, My first goal was I didn't want to be a cook or a steward, so I went to aircraft mechanic school. I still had to prove to people that thought I was genetically inferior that I wasn't too stupid to drain the oil out of an airplane.

[56:58] Laura Camien: Oh, you know, but he knew like he I feel like I don't know. He had an awareness. I feel like he did a lot of observing in his youth. He saw and felt it all and stored that away. You know, he was uh just incredibly perceptive.

[57:16] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I think you're right. I think you're right. He was very he's he seemed like a very sensitive person uh and very perceptive.

[57:24] Laura Camien: So by the time the Navy transferred him to California in the mid-60s, he realized he would never have the courage to quit the Navy if he could not get rid of his stutter.

[57:34] Susan Blackwell: He said he still couldn't get a word out, and he realized it wasn't physical. He said, I figured out that my stutter, and this isn't the case for everyone, was caused by fear of the perception of the listener. I had a much higher opinion of everyone else than I did of myself.

[57:50] Laura Camien: I started doing things like imagining everybody naked, all kinds of tricks I used on myself.

[57:55] Susan Blackwell: I actually relate deeply to this. There, it's so I was like so sparked by Bill Withers on so many counts. And one of them is that feeling from grow for personally from growing up in a sort of a rural environment and um just not having some of the advantages and privileges that I perceived other people had.

[58:25] Laura Camien: I really related to him saying that.

[58:27] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, yeah.

[58:28] Laura Camien: And there's always space for someone else to speak, but not for you.

[58:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and just how I would subjugate, I personally would subjugate myself to other people and just assume that they were smarter than me and more sophisticated than me. I thought that way growing up in Kansas, it was like, oh well, that person is from either the East Coast or the West Coast. And so they know more and they're more experienced and they're more talented and everything.

[58:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[58:50] Susan Blackwell: But he just can I give you just one more little story about um stuttering that could apply to Bill.

[58:56] Laura Camien: Um, but Wes had a stutter when he was young.

[59:00] Susan Blackwell: You're kidding.

[59:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'm not his sweet mom, uh Betty Day, who I love so much, sweet Betty Day. Hi Betty.

[59:08] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Betty.

[59:10] Laura Camien: She took him in to um speech therapist, and um they worked with him for like one, I don't know, you know, one session. And he they asked him a question like, what is the, you know, do you know what this is? And he's like, It's a bird. And they were like, Can you tell me everything you know about birds? And he talked and talked and talked all about what he knew about birds, and not one, not a single stutter. And the therapist came back to Betty, and she knew like Wes's siblings and their very big personalities and big talking. And she said, Betty, I think that there's not space for Wes was the youngest. He was a little kid. And like, let's say at the dinner table, everyone's loud and talking over each other.

[59:57] Susan Blackwell: And when he would try to talk, she said, like, I don't think like he's he's uh trying to get a word in there, and he can't. So I want to encourage you to like find some space for him to contribute to the conversation. So sweet Betty Day did exactly that. And she'd be like, y'all, y'all shut up. It's Wes's turn to talk. And sure enough, whenever when he had space, he spoke just fine. And the stutter went away. And I think about Bill, because as uh one of six kids, you've got to imagine he was like fighting to try to get a youngest. And he's the youngest.

[1:00:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:00:39] Susan Blackwell: So I just offer that as well. Like you've got to make some space for the kids I actually have in my spark file for another spark for another day is about stuttering. I'm very sparked by this topic.

[1:00:51] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:00:51] Susan Blackwell: So spoiler alert. But um, yeah, I think that it's Bill Withers makes the point in the documentary Still Bill that stutters are almost like fingerprints, and each each person has their own distinct way of stuttering. And there's sort of not a yeah, not a one size fits all reason for it or solution to it. So uh, but that's another spark for another day.

[1:01:18] Laura Camien: That's fascinating.

[1:01:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's a pre-bell west. Spark pile to come. I think too, and I love Betty because you know Betty, she's a steel magnolia, and she was like, Y'all shut up. Give some gives some space to Wesley. I love that.

[1:01:31] Laura Camien: Well, I'm happy to report that Bill Withers cured himself of his stutter.

[1:01:37] Susan Blackwell: Incredible.

[1:01:38] Laura Camien: And him incredible.

[1:01:40] Susan Blackwell: And in 1965, he quit the Navy and he became the first black mailman in Santa Clara County, California. He eventually took a job at an aircraft parts factory, and his job was installing toilets and toilet seats in commercial airplanes. And as a Navy aircraft mechanic, he was ridiculously overqualified for the job he was doing, but he said it was all about survival, which having a dad who worked in a factory, amen.

[1:02:10] Laura Camien: Bill Withers.

[1:02:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:02:12] Laura Camien: Amen, Bill Withers.

[1:02:13] Susan Blackwell: And can I just say, talk about being the master of your own fate? Here's a person who redirected his life in some, you know, away from something that seemed almost pre just, you know, um predisposed or or like a certain future that he was going to be working in the coal mines. He circumvented that. He learned engineering. He became a mailman. He um taught himself how not to stutter. I mean, this is a guy who's like, I'm gonna grab things, yeah, you know, by the balls and do it ready, Cammy and strap in because here's a big one.

[1:02:51] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:02:51] Susan Blackwell: So one one night around that time, Bill Withers visited a club in Oakland where Lou Rawls was playing, the famous singer. And Bill Withers tells this story that Lou Rawls was late, and the manager was pacing back and forth nearby to where Bill Withers was seated. And Bill said, I remember him saying, I'm paying this guy $2,000 a week, and he can't show up on time. Bill Withers said, I was making $3 an hour looking for friendly women, but nobody found me interesting. Then Rawls walked in, and all these women are talking to him. So by that time, Withers was in his late 20s. His music business experience consisted of a like a couple of times sitting in with a bar band when he was stationed in Guam with the Navy. He had never played the guitar, but he headed to a pawn shop, bought a cheap guitar, and began teaching himself to play.

[1:03:47] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:03:48] Susan Blackwell: Between shifts at the factory, he began writing his own tunes, and he said, I figured out that you didn't need to be a virtuoso to accompany yourself. This has I this is I love this. It reminds me of my dad writing poetry between his, you know, like on his breaks at the factory. Like it's almost like a plant growing through a crack in the sidewalk.

[1:04:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:04:13] Susan Blackwell: That it's just sort of like creativity will grow up and out. I love it.

[1:04:17] Laura Camien: So it will.

[1:04:18] Susan Blackwell: Life finds a way. He began saving from each paycheck until he had enough to record a crude demo. And he shopped it around to all the major labels. They weren't interested. But then he got a meeting with a black music executive named Clarence Avant, who had recently founded an indie label called Sussex. And Clarence Evant gave him a deal and set him up with the famous Stax keyboardist Booker T. Jones, and Booker T. Jones produced Bill Withers' first album.

[1:04:48] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:04:49] Susan Blackwell: This is crazy. Booker T. Jones used all of his contacts and he hired the best musicians on the Los Angeles scene at the time, including Steven Stills of Crosby Stills, Nash and Young on guitar. And Booker T. Jones tells this story that Bill came in right from the factory. He showed up in his old brogens, his old like leather work boots and his I love this, and his old clunk of a car with a notebook full of songs. And when he saw everyone in the studio, he asked to speak to Booker T. Jones privately. And he said, Booker, who's gonna sing these songs? And Booker said, You are Bill. He was expecting some other vocalist to show up.

[1:05:35] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:05:35] Susan Blackwell: And Bill was extremely uneasy until Graham Nash walked into the studio, famous musician, Graham Nash, and Graham Nash sat down in front of Bill Withers and said, You don't know how good you are. Bill Withers said, I will never forget it. In a few days, they laid down the basic tracks for what became Bill's first album, Just As I Am, released in 1971.

[1:06:00] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:06:02] Susan Blackwell: Here's a little spark for you. Oh my god. It's a little spark. I know this is I I love Bill Withers. Love the music, love the man, love the stories about the man. Here's a spark for you. So Bill was watching the 1962 Jack Lemon Lee Remick movie Days of Wine and Roses on TV. And it's the story. Did you did you ever see that movie, The Black and White Film?

[1:06:23] Laura Camien: No, no, I know of it.

[1:06:25] Susan Blackwell: I know of it too, and I'd never seen it. But it's the story of two young, bright people, and they start, they fall in love and they start drinking together, and they develop a very serious uh addiction to alcohol. So the doomed relationship in the film brought a phrase to Bill's mind. Here's the spark. Ain't no sunshine when she's gone.

[1:06:49] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:06:50] Susan Blackwell: So ain't no sunshine is on Bill's first album, Just As I Am. Cammian from across the Miles, do you have a web browser open? Will you please Google Bill Withers Just As I Am and look at the record cover, which we will also share on social media at the Sparkfile. This is the album cover for As I Am. This photo was taken during Withers' lunch break, leaning on a wall outside of Weber Aircraft, where he worked, lunchbox in his hand. Bill said, My co-workers were making fun of me. They thought it was a joke. So even the cover of his album taken at the factory.

[1:07:33] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:07:34] Susan Blackwell: I love him so much. And just as I am is as authentic as it gets. Like just as I am.

[1:07:47] Laura Camien: I think authentic is uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:07:50] Susan Blackwell: That's the word for it. So um, still unconvinced that music would pay off, he held on to his day job until he was laid off in the months before the album's release. Then he said, one day, two letters came in the mail. One was asking me to come back to my job, and the other was inviting me to appear on Johnny Carson. The tonight show appearance in November 1971 helped propel Ain't No Sunshine into the top 10. And the follow-up, Grandma's Hands, reached number 42. Bill Withers at that time was 32 years old.

[1:08:28] Laura Camien: Yes, Bill Withers.

[1:08:29] Susan Blackwell: I think this is why I feel so sparked by Bill Withers. He comes from this background of natural growth. He didn't have a leg up. He didn't start writing or even playing an instrument until he was an adult. He was working at a blue-collar job while he was also taking a swing at being creative, which again reminds me so much of my dad. But somehow Bill Withers knew that the Golden Palace is anywhere you make it. It's anywhere you make anything you want to make. And to me, he and his music are evidence of that. He gives someone like me hope and a sense of what is possible. And I love him and his music for that.

[1:09:06] Laura Camien: My God.

[1:09:07] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[1:09:09] Laura Camien: Ah, I do too.

[1:09:10] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:09:11] Laura Camien: There's something also to this mindset that I feel like I constantly work to get back to. There's a mindset of sometimes when you don't know what you don't know and you're fine with it. You're like, this is what I want to do, and I'm gonna do it. And your mind isn't telling you, like, but do you know how unlikely it is that you're gonna get that album made and how unlikely it is that you're gonna get on Johnny Carson and how all the stars have to align for you to blah blah blah and all that that voice.

[1:09:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, fuck it.

[1:09:41] Laura Camien: You know, there was there's like if we can remain in that mindset to like, why not? Why not me?

[1:09:47] Susan Blackwell: Possibly.

[1:09:50] Laura Camien: This is an interesting why not me.

[1:09:51] Susan Blackwell: This is interesting. Years later, Bill still marveled that he was able to come out of nowhere at that age. And he said, Imagine 40,000 people at a stadium watching a football game. About 10,000 of them think they can play quarterback. Maybe three of them probably could. I guess I was one of those three. So, but but I love that he was really operating under that why not me? And just kept putting one foot in front of the other, learning, teaching himself writing, and uh he kept going. While working Lou Rawls can do it and show up late and get all the ladies. Why not me?

[1:10:27] Laura Camien: Why not me?

[1:10:28] Susan Blackwell: So then Bill Withers took some of his earnings, he bought a piano, and again, with no training, began fiddling around. One of the first things he came up with was this very simple chord progression. He says, I didn't change fingers, I just went one, two, three, four, up and down the piano. It was the first thing I learned to play. Even a tiny child can play that. He said, Tired of love songs, he wrote a simple ode to friendship called Lean on Me.

[1:10:58] Laura Camien: And if you think about it, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.

[1:11:06] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:11:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:07] Susan Blackwell: It's not, we talk about this all the time. Sometimes when people think about creativity, they think it has to be the Sistine Chapel. They think that it has to be this like very complex or professional or like takes years of now. Sometimes it does take years of craft, but sometimes you can just express yourself and write your heart out, and you come up with lean on me. But sometimes we discredit anything that comes too easily. And so if it didn't, you know, if it wasn't years of blood, sweat and tears, then it must not be anything special. And that's so uh frankly incorrect. As something can spring forth from you that is simply beautiful.

[1:11:56] Laura Camien: It seems though at this time he was really making time and had a pretty consistent, disciplined practice.

[1:12:02] Susan Blackwell: So I don't want to like uh he was really committed to making stuff, so I don't want to shortchange that either, but um but I love it, I just love this. Um, an Ohio-based poet and cultural critic named Hanif Abduraki wrote a beautiful piece in the New York Times after Bill Withers passed. In it, he said that Lean on Me was written after Bill moved to Los Angeles and longed for everyone he loved back in West Virginia. That was his spark, that longing. Um which there you go, sparks are everywhere, people.

[1:12:34] Laura Camien: Um Withers didn't think much of the song, but he said that the guys at the record company thought it was a single, and it became the centerpiece of his second album, 1972 Still Bill. The song went all the way to number one and was inescapable for the entire year.

[1:12:51] Laura Camien: And years later, years to come.

[1:12:54] Susan Blackwell: Years beyond.

[1:12:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:12:55] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:12:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:12:56] Susan Blackwell: So something something I may have referred to on the podcast, we refer to it all the time when we talk about writing and creativity, is the concept of penny words. There's even this piece called Penny Words in the show now, hear this. This concept is when you're writing something, if you have a choice between like a five dollar, ten dollar, twenty dollar word, like a really fancy SAT word, or you could use like a penny word, a nickel word, a dime word, which is to say just like a smaller, simpler, even more common word. I vote always choose the penny word.

[1:13:31] Laura Camien: Now, sometimes the $20 SAT word is exactly what you need, it's the perfect irreplaceable word.

[1:13:37] Susan Blackwell: But if there is a small word, a word with fewer syllables, a simple word that gets the job done, I say go with the penny word. And I feel like that's where Bill Withers just crushes it. If you look at a song like Lean on Me, the words with the most syllables are sometimes sorrow and tomorrow. And check out the chorus, Laura Cambian. Listen to this.

[1:14:00] Laura Camien: Lean on me when you're not strong, and I'll be your friend.

[1:14:05] Susan Blackwell: I'll help you carry on for it won't be long till I'm gonna need somebody to lean on.

[1:14:11] Laura Camien: This is some great songwriting.

[1:14:14] Susan Blackwell: And in the chorus, the two longest words are carry and somebody. Penny words people, yes, Bill Withers.

[1:14:21] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:14:22] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[1:14:23] Laura Camien: Love it.

[1:14:23] Susan Blackwell: And also speaks to authenticity. You know, it's not trying to put on some big fancy words.

[1:14:31] Laura Camien: Um, he's just speaking from the soul.

[1:14:34] Susan Blackwell: The other thing I just bears mentioning that voice, I love that voice.

[1:14:38] Laura Camien: Oh my god, I love that voice.

[1:14:40] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:14:41] Laura Camien: So um by 1972, I mean, when you when you marry those words with that voice.

[1:14:46] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:14:47] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's quality.

[1:14:48] Susan Blackwell: So by 1972, with Still Bill and the single Lean on Me, Withers was a hot commodity.

[1:14:54] Susan Blackwell: He was appearing on, he was appearing on Soul Train and the BBC and headlining a show at Carnegie Hall that was released as a live album, but he refused to hire a manager, insisting on overseeing every aspect of his career from producing his own songs to writing the liner notes to designing his album covers.

[1:15:13] Laura Camien: He said, early on, I had a manager for a couple of months, and it felt like getting a gasoline enema.

[1:15:19] Susan Blackwell: He does have a way with words.

[1:15:21] Laura Camien: Nobody had my interest at heart.

[1:15:23] Susan Blackwell: I felt like a pawn.

[1:15:24] Laura Camien: I like being my own man.

[1:15:27] Susan Blackwell: I respect it.

[1:15:28] Laura Camien: I respect it.

[1:15:28] Susan Blackwell: I respect it.

[1:15:30] Laura Camien: Bill Withers.

[1:15:31] Susan Blackwell: He also, uh, Bill Withers was also unhappy on the road.

[1:15:35] Laura Camien: He had these enormous radio hits.

[1:15:36] Susan Blackwell: He was opening up for acts like Jethro Tull.

[1:15:39] Laura Camien: Listen, I'm no concert promoter, but that seems like kind of a different audience to me.

[1:15:44] Susan Blackwell: Who thought that?

[1:15:45] Laura Camien: Somebody.

[1:15:46] Susan Blackwell: Um, Jethro Tull flute rock.

[1:15:49] Laura Camien: Um, he was making less money than he felt he deserved.

[1:15:53] Susan Blackwell: And then his label went bankrupt in 1975.

[1:15:56] Laura Camien: So Withers signed a five-record deal with Columbia.

[1:16:00] Susan Blackwell: And you would think, wow, a five-record deal with Columbia. Fantastic.

[1:16:04] Laura Camien: But Bill said, I met my A&R guy, and the first thing he said to me was, I don't like your music or any black music, period.

[1:16:14] Susan Blackwell: Come on.

[1:16:15] Laura Camien: Bill said he was proud of himself that he did not hit him.

[1:16:18] Susan Blackwell: I'm proud of you too, Bill.

[1:16:20] Laura Camien: I might have taken a swipe.

[1:16:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:16:22] Laura Camien: He met another executive who was looking at a photo of the Four Tops in a magazine.

[1:16:27] Susan Blackwell: And this record executive actually said to Bill, look at these ugly N-words.

[1:16:32] Laura Camien: Except the guy didn't say N-word.

[1:16:35] Susan Blackwell: Can you imagine facing that kind of blatant racism aimed at you so casually?

[1:16:40] Laura Camien: No.

[1:16:41] Susan Blackwell: I guess I should say, I can only imagine it.

[1:16:43] Laura Camien: I can only imagine it, what that must have been like.

[1:16:46] Susan Blackwell: And you now you have to give five albums of your personal music to these people.

[1:16:53] Laura Camien: No.

[1:16:53] Susan Blackwell: Oh God.

[1:16:55] Laura Camien: So at his prior label, he had complete creative control over his music.

[1:16:59] Susan Blackwell: But at Columbia, he found himself in the middle of this large corporation that was giving him notes and quotes, advice about what he should be writing and what he should be recording.

[1:17:12] Laura Camien: And when he talks about this chapter in his life, he gets really emotional.

[1:17:15] Susan Blackwell: He said, There were no black executives.

[1:17:18] Laura Camien: They'd say shit to me like, Why are there no horns in this song?

[1:17:21] Susan Blackwell: Or why isn't this intro longer?

[1:17:24] Laura Camien: When he had it, he had a huge hit with Ain't No Sunshine that has no intro.

[1:17:28] Susan Blackwell: It just reminds me of all those examples we've seen of creative adjacent people justifying their existences.

[1:17:36] Laura Camien: You know, by giving you a lot of notes, and a lot of misdiagnoses.

[1:17:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but you got to remember the music business and Bill Withers met when Bill was in his 30s.

[1:17:46] Laura Camien: He was a fully formed adult.

[1:17:48] Susan Blackwell: He said, That's right, I was socialized as a regular guy.

[1:17:52] Laura Camien: I never felt like I owned it or it owned me.

[1:17:55] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, There's something to that coming into your creativity and coming into your creative success, like later in life.

[1:18:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:18:03] Susan Blackwell: So on the mantle in his home, Bill Withers had Grammys for Ain't No Sunshine from 1971, Lean on Me from 1972, and 1980s Just the Two of Us.

[1:18:14] Laura Camien: A few years after Just the Two of Us, Bill Withers became one of the few stars in pop music history to fully and truly walk away from a lucrative career entirely of his own volition and never look back.

[1:18:30] Susan Blackwell: In the 2015 interview in Rolling Stone, Bill said, These days I wouldn't know a pop chart from a pop tart.

[1:18:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:18:38] Susan Blackwell: It's not that he wasn't addicted to anything. He wasn't, it wasn't any, there wasn't a scandal, there wasn't like a health scare.

[1:18:45] Laura Camien: He was like, bye, because he wasn't feeling it.

[1:18:50] Susan Blackwell: And that was in 1980, you said.

[1:18:52] Laura Camien: So it was a total of one decade of his life, essentially, was his music career.

[1:18:57] Susan Blackwell: He did that and then walked away.

[1:18:59] Laura Camien: By his count, it was eight years.

[1:19:02] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[1:19:04] Laura Camien: I think he was like, Y'all need to go fuck yourself, which I really admire.

[1:19:08] Susan Blackwell: I feel like so many of us feel like we have to tolerate some serious bullshit because we're afraid that we won't be able to achieve our creative dream if we don't put up with it from people who are like in charge, quotes in charge, but not Bill.

[1:19:24] Laura Camien: And I admire that so much.

[1:19:26] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:19:26] Laura Camien: For years after he walked away from Columbia, Bill Withers didn't release a note of music aside from a guest spot on a 2004 Jimmy Buffett song.

[1:19:36] Susan Blackwell: As of 2015, he had not performed publicly in concert in nearly 25 years.

[1:19:41] Laura Camien: But what he did do was spend a lot of time being a dad to his two kids, Todd and Corey.

[1:19:48] Susan Blackwell: And yeah, yep, yep.

[1:19:49] Laura Camien: His daughter Corey, who is also a beautiful singer-songwriter, said we'd have James Brown dance parties in our pajamas, and we'd take cross-country road trips, blasting Chuck Berry songs the whole time.

[1:20:02] Susan Blackwell: Corey said that growing up listening to her father's songs was the most peaceful space she had as a child.

[1:20:08] Laura Camien: She said that he kind of spoke in little poems like the sky is blue and I'm happy to see you, or quit crying and start trying.

[1:20:16] Susan Blackwell: And also that he would say, get a pencil and write this down.

[1:20:19] Laura Camien: When he came up with a little idea, he would even call his adult daughter and say, I was thinking of this, make a note of it.

[1:20:26] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes she says sometimes those things made it into song, Bill, meaning they've made it into fully formed songs.

[1:20:33] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:20:34] Susan Blackwell: Corey said she's sure that her mom has many pieces of paper with Bill's ideas, a thought, two lines on them, which tickled me so much because I thought, oh my God, the keepers of Bill Withers' Sparks file were his family.

[1:20:48] Laura Camien: I'd never heard of that.

[1:20:50] Susan Blackwell: I never thought of that, that you would be like, Corey, take a note.

[1:20:53] Laura Camien: I thought that was great.

[1:20:54] Susan Blackwell: Um that is so excellent.

[1:20:58] Laura Camien: And I'm so happy to know that his ideas and his thoughts lived on in some way, whatever shape they took with his family.

[1:21:06] Susan Blackwell: So be it.

[1:21:06] Laura Camien: But then he got them out into the world.

[1:21:10] Susan Blackwell: Ongoing, yeah.

[1:21:11] Laura Camien: So he really seemed to be in a great partnership with his wife Marcia, who is another spark.

[1:21:17] Susan Blackwell: He said he learned the whole family thing from his wife Marcia because his father had died so young.

[1:21:22] Laura Camien: Um Marcia, who met Bill in 1976, ran Bill's publishing company from a tiny office on Sunset Boulevard.

[1:21:31] Susan Blackwell: Bill described it as a mom and pop shop and described Marcia as his only overseer.

[1:21:37] Laura Camien: He said, and this is a spark for me. I'm lucky I married a woman with an MBA.

[1:21:41] Susan Blackwell: I feel like when a relationship is healthy, there is something so powerful about a family-run creative business.

[1:21:49] Laura Camien: I know a few people who do this, and when it's healthy, it's powerful because there's so much trust there, and there's so much, um, I don't know.

[1:21:59] Susan Blackwell: I just think it's great.

[1:22:01] Laura Camien: I just love seeing the way they interact with each other and the trust between them.

[1:22:07] Susan Blackwell: I just loved it.

[1:22:08] Laura Camien: Um dig this.

[1:22:10] Susan Blackwell: This makes me so happy.

[1:22:12] Laura Camien: Since Withers was the sole writer of most of his material, he earned half of every dollar his catalog generated.

[1:22:20] Susan Blackwell: And Lean on Me alone has appeared in innumerable TV shows, movies, commercials.

[1:22:26] Laura Camien: Any licensee that wanted to use Withers' master version of one of his songs required that family's approval.

[1:22:33] Susan Blackwell: So get into that.

[1:22:35] Laura Camien: And here's another good spark.

[1:22:36] Susan Blackwell: Here, listen to this artists.

[1:22:38] Bill and Marcia invested wisely in LA real estate.

[1:22:42] Laura Camien: They bought their home in 1998 for $700,000.

[1:22:47] Susan Blackwell: It was now worth many times that.

[1:22:49] Laura Camien: And because of the skills he learned early on, remember Bill? Remember Bill working as an airline mechanic working in a factory.

[1:22:58] Susan Blackwell: He was able to do work and construction projects on his own investment properties.

[1:23:03] Laura Camien: So he, you know, he was, I don't know.

[1:23:07] Susan Blackwell: I just love them.

[1:23:09] Laura Camien: I love Bill and the whole thing.

[1:23:10] Susan Blackwell: He was his own man.

[1:23:12] Laura Camien: It was exactly as he said.

[1:23:13] Susan Blackwell: I want to be my own man.

[1:23:15] Laura Camien: He said he turned down more offers for comeback tours than he could count.

[1:23:19] Susan Blackwell: What else do I need to buy?

[1:23:20] Laura Camien: He said, I'm just so fortunate.

[1:23:22] Susan Blackwell: I've got a nice wife who treats me like gold.

[1:23:25] Laura Camien: I don't deserve her.

[1:23:26] Susan Blackwell: My wife dotes on me.

[1:23:27] Laura Camien: I'm very pleased with my life, how it is.

[1:23:30] Susan Blackwell: Oh Cam's, like I said, his career lasted eight years by his count.

[1:23:35] Laura Camien: And in that time, he wrote and recorded some of the most loved, most covered songs of all time, particularly Lean on Me and Ain't No Sunshine.

[1:23:44] Susan Blackwell: Tunes that feature what Rolling Stone writer Andy Green described as dead simple, soulful instrumentation and pure melodies that haven't aged a second.

[1:23:55] Laura Camien: Well put.

[1:23:56] Susan Blackwell: Well put.

[1:23:57] Laura Camien: Questlove of the Roots said he's the last African American everyman.

[1:24:03] Susan Blackwell: Bill Withers is the closest thing black people have to Bruce Springsteen.

[1:24:08] Laura Camien: And I think I was like, Questlove, I'm feeling that.

[1:24:11] Susan Blackwell: I think there's some truth to that.

[1:24:13] Laura Camien: But I also think that Bill Withers is also his own thing.

[1:24:18] Susan Blackwell: No comparison necessary.

[1:24:19] Laura Camien: And what I know about Bruce Springsteen, when I saw Bruce Springsteen do his show on Broadway, he talked about all that stuff about like I'm driving a car on dirt roads after dark and working in the factory.

[1:24:33] Susan Blackwell: He didn't work in a factory.

[1:24:34] Laura Camien: He didn't work in a factory.

[1:24:35] Susan Blackwell: He didn't have a driver's license.

[1:24:37] Laura Camien: He was talking about his father's experience.

[1:24:40] Susan Blackwell: He was writing from the point of view, the character of his father.

[1:24:44] Laura Camien: Bill Withers was writing from the point of view of his own experience.

[1:24:49] Susan Blackwell: So not to take anything away from Bruce Springsteen, but I'm sort of like maybe Bruce Springsteen is the white Bill Withers.

[1:24:59] Laura Camien: He's also, you know, good job, Bruce Springsteen.

[1:25:02] Susan Blackwell: You're doing okay.

[1:25:03] Laura Camien: I think he's gonna be okay.

[1:25:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:25:05] Laura Camien: So in 2015, Bill Withers was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

[1:25:09] Susan Blackwell: Stevie Wonder was the person who inducted him.

[1:25:12] Laura Camien: And in his speech, Stevie talked about how he wished he had written those great songs.

[1:25:17] Susan Blackwell: Me too, Stevie, and how relatable they were.

[1:25:20] Laura Camien: He's talked about how a song like Ain't No Sunshine When She's Gone is at face value, about how when that special person you love is gone, you feel incomplete.

[1:25:29] Susan Blackwell: But how it can reflect the feelings around a current event.

[1:25:34] Laura Camien: The year before Bill Withers' induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the Chibok schoolgirls had been kidnapped by an Islamic extremist terrorist organization.

[1:25:44] Susan Blackwell: And Stevie Wonder talked about how the song felt relevant to how the parents of those girls must feel.

[1:25:51] Laura Camien: And I think Stevie's right.

[1:25:53] Susan Blackwell: Because of the way the songs are written, because of their authenticity and their like the penny words of it all, there's a universality about them.

[1:26:03] Laura Camien: And we can all project our own experience onto them.

[1:26:07] Susan Blackwell: I just think it's brilliant.

[1:26:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:26:10] Susan Blackwell: This is what the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame website says about Bill Withers, a masterful lyricist and brilliant vocalist who made emotional connections with listeners on friendship, family, and vulnerability.

[1:26:23] Laura Camien: His timeless songs have been covered and sampled by hundreds of artists from Aretha Franklin and Michael R. Jackson to Mary J. Blige and Willie Nelson.

[1:26:32] Susan Blackwell: This is what Bill Withers said about Bill Withers.

[1:26:36] Laura Camien: I'm not a virtuoso, but I was able to write songs that people could identify with.

[1:26:41] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I've done bad for a guy from Slab Fork, West Virginia.

[1:26:46] Laura Camien: And that is why Bill Withers is my spark for today.

[1:26:49] Susan Blackwell: Bill Withers, I'm so thankful for you.

[1:26:51] Laura Camien: And I hope you rest in peace.

[1:26:55] Susan Blackwell: Oh, God, Zeus.

[1:26:57] Laura Camien: That was a great spark.

[1:27:00] Susan Blackwell: It sparks me, Cam, as just like a little dirty rural blue-collar girl.

[1:27:08] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:27:08] Susan Blackwell: I cannot tell you how much hope somebody like Bill Withers gives me.

[1:27:13] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:27:15] Susan Blackwell: He wrote his own destiny.

[1:27:17] Laura Camien: He liked at every turn.

[1:27:20] Susan Blackwell: That's exactly right.

[1:27:21] Laura Camien: He did it his way.

[1:27:23] Susan Blackwell: He did what he wanted to do in the way he wanted to do it.

[1:27:26] Laura Camien: Thank you, Bill Withers.

[1:27:27] Susan Blackwell: We love you.

[1:27:27] Laura Camien: I'm sparkling.

[1:27:28] Susan Blackwell: And I send love to his family.

[1:27:31] Laura Camien: I can't imagine the loss that they must be feeling.

[1:27:34] Susan Blackwell: I can't even imagine.

[1:27:35] Laura Camien: Um with you.

[1:27:37] Susan Blackwell: But let's all let's go listen to, let's go listen to those albums.

[1:27:42] Laura Camien: Lovely day, right?

[1:27:42] Susan Blackwell: Lovely day.

[1:27:44] Laura Camien: A lovely day.

[1:27:45] Susan Blackwell: What that song is a day.

[1:27:48] Laura Camien: That is a happy song.

[1:27:49] Susan Blackwell: Put that on in the morning. That'll make you feel good.

[1:27:53] Laura Camien: I mean, I think that's it.

[1:27:55] Susan Blackwell: That's it.

[1:27:56] Laura Camien: I'm full to the brim of sparks.

[1:27:59] Susan Blackwell: Captain's log.

[1:28:00] Laura Camien: We have this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:28:03] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, won't you email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:28:17] Laura Camien: We will even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

[1:28:20] Susan Blackwell: First, you must share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[1:28:24] Laura Camien: And you can follow us on social media at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[1:28:30] Susan Blackwell: Subscribe, rate, five-star review it.

[1:28:33] Laura Camien: If you like this podcast, it would be so excellent of you to share it with people that you love.

[1:28:38] Susan Blackwell: And if you didn't like it, I don't know why in God's name you are still listening.

[1:28:43] Laura Camien: Go, go do something else.

[1:28:45] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:28:46] Laura Camien: And if something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:28:56] Susan Blackwell: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:29:01] Laura Camien: You gotta wash those hands up, right?

[1:29:03] Susan Blackwell: You gotta go fly a homemade kite.

[1:29:05] Laura Camien: You gotta write yourself the next club hit and dance, dance, dance all night.

[1:29:09] Susan Blackwell: You gotta take it.

[1:29:12] Laura Camien: And make it. Bye everybody.

[1:29:17] Susan Blackwell: When I bop into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:29:26] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:29:32] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark files.

[1:29:36] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark files.

[1:29:41] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark file.