This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:19] Laura Camien: To be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be, I pump it in my spark spa.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:42] Laura Camien: Or as I say, I'm bastarding smack creative people don't go it alone.

[0:46] Susan Blackwell: They do not.

[0:47] Laura Camien: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:48] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:56] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Sparks File community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[1:01] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, what get in here? Welcome, friend.

[1:06] Laura Camien: Get into this sweatshirt. Know that just by listening to this podcast, you're joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:14] Susan Blackwell: Behold the phone, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:24] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:33] Susan Blackwell: But do not despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:50] Laura Camien: Or a rock and roll approach to maintaining healthy collaborations.

[1:54] Susan Blackwell: Ooh! Shredders. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:03] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too. That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime, folks.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: So please, if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:18] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: Mass holes. Hey, Camien!

[2:28] Laura Camien: Blackwell!

[2:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh. Rock and roll girl.

[2:32] Laura Camien: Rock and roll. Girls!

[2:33] Susan Blackwell: So many excitements afoot. I feel like at the risk of repeating ourselves, so many excitements afoot.

[2:40] Laura Camien: The January 1st and 2nd Sparks File annual new year creativity kickoff is coming.

[2:47] Susan Blackwell: To a Zoom near you. I think that is going to be fun AF.

[2:52] Laura Camien: Yes, it is. The Sparks File Merchapalooza is, uh, if it hasn't opened up yet online, it's getting ready to.

[3:00] Susan Blackwell: And you know what? I'm so excited because I realized I have not really, I told Nathan that we were planning on doing this, but I haven't really updated him on it.

[3:11] Laura Camien: And the update may be when he opens a little holiday gifty.

[3:15] Susan Blackwell: You're kidding. Do you think you could keep it from him till then?

[3:19] Laura Camien: I don't. I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't see how I could possibly could.

[3:24] Susan Blackwell: Suze, this is how I am with gifts for Wes. I'll be like, I got these Christmas, I got these holiday gifts for Wes, and I can't wait for them to get here.

[3:33] Laura Camien: They get here, they sit here for I don't know, 10 minutes.

[3:37] Susan Blackwell: Yes, 10 minutes. And I'm like, babe, I got you this. I don't want to wait.

[3:42] Laura Camien: I received a present for Nathan. And we've been together long enough. And I think you and Wes, this is true too. Where I said to Nathan this morning, what do you get for the partner who really has everything?

[3:57] Susan Blackwell: And you've kind of given them so many. And if he wants something, he's gonna get exactly what he wants.

[3:59] Laura Camien: If he wants something, it's already like the delivery man is at our door and it's being delivered.

[4:07] Susan Blackwell: He's already bought it for himself. But this, I think that I can say this safely on the podcast. I don't think he's going to hear it.

[4:15] Laura Camien: But something that I found for him. Now, Laura, keep this under your hat and Sparklers if you're listening, please, please don't tell Nathan.

[4:25] Susan Blackwell: But I found for him, I've seen this one time before on Cherish, but it was like a thousand dollars. It was totally jacked up because I think the person knew for the right buyer, somebody would lay it down, but that person was not me.

[4:41] Laura Camien: But then I found it again on eBay for a fraction of that. It is a vintage woven wicker chihuahua.

[4:53] Susan Blackwell: It's a yes, yes. Oh my god. If you've spent any time with me, you know we love our dogs, POTUS and Kitty Bunny, and they're both two little rescue chihuahuas.

[5:06] Laura Camien: And this is, I'm so nervous. He's gonna walk through the room while I'm recording this. It is so, it's vintage.

[5:12] Susan Blackwell: It looks like it came straight out of like 1965, and it is as adorable in person as it has been looking at me online for months.

[5:25] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[5:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Oh, I cannot wait to see it. I'm excited for him to get it. I've only seen two of them ever online.

[5:33] Laura Camien: And so I got one of them, but I got it at a very recent one. Far less than the crazy problem.

[5:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. Now the one that was a thousand dollars, it was in, it was like pristine, it was beautiful. And this one is a little bit like, okay, you've been around since 1965, but I don't mind that. I like the charm of it.

[5:49] Laura Camien: That's right. A little patina.

[5:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Did I tell you this is something weird and crazy that's happening? So we may or may not have talked about this on the podcast, but when Wes and I moved out of Florida, we had an estate sale.

[6:05] Laura Camien: And Suze, I was poking around on Etsy last night looking for something, and I saw something listed that the person 100% bought at my estate sale.

[6:19] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[6:19] Laura Camien: 100%. And it's available for local pickup in northern Florida.

[6:24] Susan Blackwell: How did you feel about it? How did it make you feel?

[6:26] Laura Camien: You know, uh overall, I was like, this is the flow. This is, you know, I had that for a moment and enjoyed it and let it go.

[6:37] Susan Blackwell: You and I were talking about this the other night. I'm sure we've talked about it on the podcast. We are just the stewards of it for a period of time.

[6:45] Laura Camien: And then if we're lucky, if it doesn't go into the landfill, somebody else will be the steward of it.

[6:51] Susan Blackwell: That is correct. One instance where I would cry over something. This happened. Okay, let me tell you this. I was in Berlin and I went to a little like flea market, and there I found a pair of sunglasses that were amazing.

[7:07] Laura Camien: You told me this.

[7:11] Susan Blackwell: Right. And I was so mad at myself because I was like, here's a piece of history that survived the fucking Berlin Wall coming down, but didn't survive one trip with me to the Gulf of Mexico.

[7:23] Laura Camien: And I felt so disappointed in myself. You know, I'm like, that's in the bottom of the ocean now because of me.

[7:30] Susan Blackwell: And I feel that way about like, you know, if I ruined something, I guess, a broken, if I break something, and I'm like, that was a piece of history that was intact until it came under my care, and then I fucked it up.

[7:45] Laura Camien: That makes me cry more so than giving it up and handing it over to another person who's gonna love and enjoy it.

[7:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, I forgot I told you about those sunglasses, but obviously you can see it weighs on me.

[7:55] Laura Camien: It weighs on me. It's interesting though, because so that's that thing's life cycle, and I think that's okay too.

[8:08] Susan Blackwell: I guess, but did you see? I don't know if you saw this. We have a client, Michael Reddy. Hi, Michael Reddy.

[8:12] Laura Camien: Hi, Michael Reddy.

[8:13] Susan Blackwell: Um, Michael has a show that he has written, The King's Legacy, and it deals with um the tutor, Henry, uh King Henry.

[8:24] Laura Camien: There was an article about this bird, this little bird thing that was found that belonged to Anne Boleyn.

[8:32] Susan Blackwell: It's carved and it has the bird has a crown on it and it has like her family symbol, etc.

[8:37] Laura Camien: Yeah. You have to know to look for these things. Obviously, they knew it was old, but it sold at auction for a hundred dollars.

[8:44] Susan Blackwell: Someone picked this up and then come to find out it belonged to Anne Boleyn. It is actually worth like $275,000, but more importantly, it belonged to Anne Boleyn.

[8:57] Laura Camien: And what's crazy about finding something that belonged to Anne Boleyn is that after he had her beheaded, they intentionally wiped the castle and the kingdom clean of any remnant of Anne Boleyn.

[9:11] Susan Blackwell: It was like, we're going to make her go away. Let's all forget that she existed. So here is this piece that basically for a nerd like me, and I think Michael Reddy, it symbolizes the spirit of Anne Boleyn being so irrepressible that it's like you will not destroy everything.

[9:40] Laura Camien: That is rad.

[9:41] Susan Blackwell: That's why I get pumped up about things. But passing them on, it was actually a real pleasure to have an estate sale. And the people who ran the estate sale still text me and Wes from time to time, and they're like, We're still thinking about you guys, and um people still talk about what an amazing sale that was and the little treasures they got.

[10:00] Laura Camien: I think that was an amazing sale because you are such a, you have great taste, and or maybe I should say you have similar taste to me, so I think you have great taste.

[10:09] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing.

[10:11] Laura Camien: So pat myself on the back.

[10:13] Susan Blackwell: But we have amazing taste.

[10:15] Laura Camien: We have amazing taste. No, but seriously, you are a collector of some really interesting treasures.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: Can I ask it if you don't want to talk about it? We don't have to, but what was the thing that was posted? What was the thing?

[10:27] Laura Camien: Yeah. So you know those valets, like a man's valet that you can like put a jacket on and take your watch off and put it on there, right?

[10:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[10:36] Laura Camien: I had one that was lucite. And you just do not see them.

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. I you don't see them.

[10:44] Laura Camien: I wish I would have bought that at your estate sale.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: But it was tough because you were working fast at your estate sale, and I was like, wait, wait, can we go shopping?

[10:52] Laura Camien: There's no time.

[10:53] Susan Blackwell: I saved that one thing for you that I'm happy I saved.

[10:57] Laura Camien: But I should have walked through the sale with you and just been like, Do you want anything?

[11:02] Susan Blackwell: There was no time.

[11:04] Laura Camien: There wasn't. There wasn't. I'm here to tell you there wasn't.

[11:07] Susan Blackwell: But I will say the thing that you saved that you did share with me. Nathan was I brought it home, and Nathan was like, That is rad.

[11:16] Laura Camien: Yay!

[11:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, it's a also from Berlin.

[11:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:20] Susan Blackwell: It's beautiful. It's just like there's no mystery around it. It's just like a beautiful, it's so my up my alley.

[11:26] Laura Camien: I love things that come from the mid-century, things that are on a tulip base, essentially.

[11:32] Susan Blackwell: So if it's got a tulip base, whether that's a table, a terrarium, a clock, like if it has a tulip base, I'm here for it.

[11:39] Laura Camien: And it was a it's this little round the spherical plastic clock with a tulip base, and man, do I love that clock.

[11:46] Susan Blackwell: And also wasn't it, doesn't it say like does it say West Berlin?

[11:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Made in West Berlin. So that tells you just like the time period because obviously when the wall came down, they no longer had to say east or west.

[11:59] Laura Camien: Did you get it there and bring it home or did you buy it here?

[12:02] Susan Blackwell: No, I found it online.

[12:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, I've seen it before, and I tried to get I tried to buy that a similar clock in an online auction and I lost it.

[12:11] Susan Blackwell: So but here's the thing again, with all of this stuff, it's just stuff and you know just stuff as long as someone's taking care of it, that's all that matters to me.

[12:22] Laura Camien: Like if someone who loves it is cherishing it and tending to it and taking care of it, making sure that it continues on, it's joyful life, then I'm happy.

[12:32] Susan Blackwell: But I also posit that those sunglasses may be living their best life at the bottom of the ocean.

[12:38] Laura Camien: Maybe someone found them. Maybe they washed up on shore.

[12:41] Susan Blackwell: There's an octopus, my octopus teacher is wearing them right now.

[12:45] Laura Camien: And they look amazing.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: They look good.

[12:47] Laura Camien: They look good in those sunglasses.

[12:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh stuff. Laura, would you can I interest you in a spark?

[12:54] Laura Camien: Oh, I would love a spark.

[12:56] Susan Blackwell: Oh, good, because I have a spark for you, Laura Camien. Something that you and I have been talking about for so long and talking about on the rigs is collaboration.

[13:08] Laura Camien: I feel like you and I talk about collaboration all the goddamn time.

[13:14] Susan Blackwell: Well, for sure, because one is it's very meta because we're both like processing, yes, learning, growing, expanding, and you know, always fine-tuning how do we make our current collaboration the very best that it could be.

[13:27] Laura Camien: We're also thinking about our clients, and that's right. Their collaborations can be the very best that they can be.

[13:34] Susan Blackwell: But we are stealing also from our collaborations in the past and like what we learned from those collaborations.

[13:40] Laura Camien: That's right. That's right. You and I, we have both collaborated on a lot of different things with a wide variety of collaborators, and some of the work that those collaborations have yielded has been great.

[13:41] Susan Blackwell: And some of the work has been less great. And some of those collaborative relationships have been more joyous, and some have been more challenging.

[14:03] Laura Camien: And I just want to say for the record, right here, while we're on this point, I'm sure that if you pulled some of my former collaborators or even current collaborators, and they spoke candidly, they would have a strong informed opinion about how I was challenging as a collaborator with very specific examples to back it up.

[14:24] Susan Blackwell: So I just want to be honest with myself. I've got my bullshit for show. Sus, I think that's really important. I want to like underline it and circle it and all that stuff because we come by these things that we now know very honestly. And it's through mistakes that we have made. It is lived experiences that we have lived.

[14:46] Laura Camien: That's right. And sometimes, like I do think of very well-intentioned attempts at doing something like when I was younger, that concept of like, use your voice and take a stand and like have an opinion. No one then told me like the consequence of that is going to be that not everyone is happy with the opinion that you shared, or the fact that you had one, or the fact that you expressed it.

[15:11] Susan Blackwell: Oh I got stuck in that. I was like, oh, wait, wasn't it good that I expressed myself? That was good, right? But no, not so, not to everyone. So everyone's in different places at all times, learning the different lessons that they're trying to learn.

[15:27] Laura Camien: Yes, yes. You nailed it, nailed it. Those times when I have been the most clear, compassionate, but clear and direct, that's when people have been the most unhappy with me. Sometimes people are like, you can't just be that direct.

[15:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And it's really interesting because we get taught those things. We get taught like those sorts of communications, like what is appropriate, and sometimes a direct line from A to B is not what everyone wants. Sometimes you might get punished for that.

[15:57] Laura Camien: You might. I'm sure we're gonna pepper this whole spark with reflections on our own current collaborations and past collaborations. But I actually think that you and I have done a pretty good job with clean as you go and not punishing each other for being direct.

[16:14] Susan Blackwell: I always think we are direct but compassionate. But even with that, we don't punish each other. I do hope that you're gonna unpack these the clean as you go concept and the not punishing concept. I think those are interesting things for people to hear.

[16:27] Laura Camien: I have to acknowledge right now, as sometimes happens on this pod, I am just gonna be tink tink tinking the tip of the spark bird with my little spark hammer. This subject is so vast, and I'm only one little Susan. But listen, if you want more information, contact us about potentially joining the Sparks File Select group because we will be taking a deeper dive on this topic in the coming months.

[16:50] Susan Blackwell: But also, I'm sure this is part one of a series on collaboration. Because I honestly, like those terms, which you and I use all the time, all the time clean as you go. And what was the other thing that you said? You just said it. You said non-punishment, like we don't punish, yeah.

[17:06] Laura Camien: We don't punish each other, they are not included, but they'll probably come up. So when they do, you know, we'll point back to them. There'll be a little dictionary that goes along with the colours. We'll provide a glossary. This is a small glossary, we'll come in the mail.

[17:21] Susan Blackwell: So because we talk to so many creatives, I do get the distinct impression that sometimes people think if they could just find the right collaborator, then their project, their vision, etc. would really be able to come to life. That the skills that they lacked would be completed by this magical other person.

[17:42] Laura Camien: And I just want to say, I think sometimes you might make a case for that, but sometimes I don't think that's true. For better or for worse, for richer or for poor in sickness and in health, I have likened identifying compatible collaborators to finding compatible long-term romantic partners and then some.

[18:01] Susan Blackwell: Because for the collaborative relationship to be successful, the collaborators have to check off as many points of compatibility as a romantic relationship, and then some. And unlike romantic relationships with collaboration, you cannot rely on romance to smooth over your conflicts.

[18:18] Laura Camien: That's right. You have to rely on communication and compromise and a number of other considerations that may or may not start with the letter C. So this week, if you couldn't tell, I'm gonna be exploring the spark of collaboration. So hold on to your butts. Let's dive into the wild and woolly world of collaboration.

[18:37] Susan Blackwell: Now, this spark was actually sparked by you, Laura Camien, on a variety of levels now that I think about it.

[18:42] Laura Camien: Oh yes.

[18:43] Susan Blackwell: It was sparked by you because you are one of my longest collaborators, still going strong for 20 million years.

[18:52] Laura Camien: 20 million years later.

[18:54] Susan Blackwell: Folks, if you're just diving into this episode because you did a search in your podcast for collaboration, let me just tell you, Laura and I have made all sorts of stuff together, and our work spans Broadway, off Broadway theater, podcasting, teaching. We partner in business. Laura has written plays that I've appeared in. You've produced theater festivals and shows that I've acted in. I've pulled you've suckered you into teaching and facilitating. Uh with me. You've produced Broadway shows that I've been in. We've done a lot of stuff together, and we're still rocking in the free world.

[19:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:27] Susan Blackwell: So I have had several collaborations that haven't lasted as long as ours. They just haven't been sustainable for various reasons. But I will say our collaboration is one that I foresee well into the distant future.

[19:44] Laura Camien: Me too.

[19:45] Susan Blackwell: And aren't we lucky?

[19:47] Laura Camien: We're lucky.

[19:48] Susan Blackwell: Very lucky, and we do not take it for granted.

[19:51] Laura Camien: And we work hard on it.

[19:51] Susan Blackwell: And we work hard to do that. We work really hard. We'll talk about that.

[19:54] Laura Camien: So as we talk about collaboration today, I want to challenge both of us to consider what, in addition to clean as you go and not punishing, what other factors have made this collaboration sustainable and lasting? And maybe throughout or near the end of this conversation, we can share some of those observations for the little sparklers who are listening, in case they are interested in the idea of collaboration, they're seeking collaborators, or they already have a collaboration and they want to keep it as healthy as possible.

[20:22] Susan Blackwell: Hey, I like this.

[20:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:25] Susan Blackwell: So I also want to say another way that you sparked this spark, Laura Camien, is because just the other day, you and I were talking about Metallica as we are wont to do. And you told me Metallica has a masterclass on You Guessed It, My Favorite, Masterclass.com, about what it takes to be a band that lasts.

[20:48] Laura Camien: And laugh if you will, but I will say this was super interesting to me because I've actually been fascinated with Metallica for a very long time. When you said, Did you know you started the sentence with, did you know Metallica? And I was like, Huh, I leaned in. But but you, when you said Metallica has a masterclass, my face lit up, and it is really about their collaboration. These guys have been collaborating for 40 plus years.

[21:18] Susan Blackwell: And if you're like, I'm not so Metallica, yeah, I have a vague idea. Let me bring you up to speed on Metallica. According to Wikipedia, James Hetfield and Lars Ulrich formed the band in 1981 in Los Angeles. And over the years, the lineup has evolved, but it's settled into the current four members: James Hetfield, Lars Ulrich, Kurt Hammett, and Robert Trujillo.

[21:41] Laura Camien: And if you have seen the great 2004 documentary film Metallica, some kind of monster, made by Joe Berlinger and Bruce Sanofsky, you know that these guys began working together when they were kids. They were emotionally unevolved, as young people often are. And when they became successful, there was this big injection of money and all sorts of other ways to numb out. It was just like a recipe for implosion.

[22:10] Susan Blackwell: But I continue to be fascinated by Metallica because they haven't imploded. They are still rocking like Docken or like Metallica.

[22:22] Laura Camien: I am curious. I don't want to take you too far on a tangent, but did they implode a few times though?

[22:29] Susan Blackwell: But they just were able to put themselves back together and keep going. They talk about it and I'll talk about it in this spark. They talk about how there were times when it did get like the conflict was to the point where are we gonna last? Are we gonna make it? Which I think, you know, in lots of long-term relationships, whether that's marriages or friendships or you know, business dealings, I'm sure they're not the only people who have had that feeling.

[22:54] Laura Camien: For sure, for sure.

[22:54] Susan Blackwell: Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm misguided, but I can imagine that there may be people who are listening to this and think that I'm kidding about centering Metallica in a spark about creativity and collaboration. But if you are having those feelings, I'm telling you, you have got to suck on it. It is amazing what these guys have accomplished.

[23:14] Laura Camien: Yes.

[23:15] Susan Blackwell: And I, if I could just say right before you list, I want to hear all their accomplishments. But Wes Day and I will talk very frequently, not just Metallica, but other bands. He he will just be like, there is nothing harder to do than keep a band together. If you're unsuccessful, if you're super successful, keeping the fucking band together is the hardest part of the job.

[23:40] Laura Camien: Yes.

[23:42] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[23:42] Laura Camien: Have you ever watched an episode of Behind the Music?

[23:46] Susan Blackwell: TLC, Fleetwood Mac.

[23:48] Laura Camien: It is a testament to something, tenacity or so I think so. To me, I think that might have been even why this topic came up when I saw that masterclass. It made me think of what Wes says, which is like keeping the band together is the hardest thing to do. And I was just like, and that makes them perfect to teach us all about how to fucking collaborate.

[24:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[24:14] Susan Blackwell: I agree. I love that documentary, Metallica, some kind of monster. I own it. I've watched it several times. I love it. I feel like they captured a moment when the band was really struggling and how they processed through that. So my heart is open. But just in case somebody else was like, oh, I'm gonna skip the Metallica collaboration episode of the Sparkfile podcast, you get your ass back in here right now.

[24:41] Laura Camien: That's right. Get your ass back in here.

[24:43] Susan Blackwell: According to Wikipedia, Metallica has released 10 studio albums. Think about that. 10 studio albums, four live albums, a cover album, five EPs, 37 singles, and 39 music videos. That's what they've made. Some of what they've made, some of what they've made.

[25:03] Laura Camien: Here's some things that they have won nine Grammys from 23 nominations.

[25:09] Susan Blackwell: And the band's last six studio albums have consecutively debuted at number one on the Billboard 200.

[25:16] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[25:16] Susan Blackwell: Metallica ranks as one of the most commercially successful bands of all time, having sold over 125 million albums worldwide as of 2018. As of 2017, Metallica is the third best selling music artist since Nielsen SoundScan tracking sales in 1991, selling a total of 58 million albums in the United States on Planned Sidespark.

[25:40] Laura Camien: I recently learned more about Nielsen's Sound Scan. Do you know about that? You know how uh Shazam, like you can hold up the app Shazam and it will listen to a song playing and it will be like, this is that song. Sound scan are like virtual ears that are listening to what's playing on the radio, what's blah, blah, blah. And so when it came out, it was the first realistic tracking of how music was actually being played in the world and the culture, etc. On the radio at that time.

[26:07] Susan Blackwell: Radio, television, blah, blah, blah. So we have it on good authority from Nielsen SoundScreen that they are the third best selling music artist since the Sound Scan began tracking in 1991. It's just amazing what they have made. The amount of work and rehearsal. I didn't even share with you the tours, the stadiums. They wrote and made a film. Like they've, they're they're really something. They've created more than I could hope to in this lifetime. And they've done it with the scrutiny of their industry and the world watching, which I think only raises the stake.

[26:43] Laura Camien: So I have to say I've got mad respect for their creative stamina, all that they've accomplished. And I also think it's a great study in collaboration because while we all may want to believe that we are more emotionally evolved than four guys in a sex, drugs, and rock and roll band.

[27:02] Susan Blackwell: Really, we might not be. I mean, just speaking for myself as a collaborator, I think I really might have started out closer to where they started out emotionally than I'd like to admit. I think they are actually a great model for an approach to creativity and collaboration.

[27:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:19] Susan Blackwell: If you haven't already put this in your Sparks file, I highly recommend you put the documentary some kind of monster. I own it. I love it. I've watched it so many times. Back to Metallica's masterclass on my favorite, masterclass.com. Not a sponsor, but we wish they would be.

[28:09] Laura Camien: Jason Newstead was a band member who was leaving the band, and they were seeking and then bringing in someone to replace Jason Newstead.

[28:18] Susan Blackwell: And at that time, they also actually brought in a coach, and they described it as a very transformative time because under the guidance of this coach, it was basically the first time that these bandmates talked to each other about how they were doing, how they were feeling, how being in Metallica was affecting them individually.

[28:43] Laura Camien: Really?

[28:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:43] Laura Camien: So it's actually fascinating.

[28:45] Susan Blackwell: This is a very like high-level performance coach.

[28:48] Laura Camien: And some of the stuff I was like, oh my God, how did this square get this job?

[28:53] Susan Blackwell: Do respect, feel told.

[28:55] Laura Camien: I know.

[28:56] Susan Blackwell: Like part of me is like, did their agent or manager probably producer?

[29:00] Laura Camien: Oh, here's a guy who can help.

[29:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[29:03] Laura Camien: Okay.

[29:03] Susan Blackwell: And I'm sure that he had worked with other like very high-profile, very successful people or organizations. But there's one thing that I actually just want to say it out loud because sometimes I'm like, oh, you're what gives coaching a bad name. I think he did a lot of good. I think he did a lot of good for Metallica. And I'll talk more about that in a moment. But there's a moment in it where they are songwriting for their album that they are putting together that they're going to release called Saint Anger. And he gets into the room with a pad of paper and a pencil, like he's a member of Metallica, and he's going to start writing lyrics. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

What's happening here? When I saw it, I wasn't a coach. And now that I'm a coach, I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's not your job to be a part of the band. It's your job to be on the outside and support these people to be, you know, the best collaborators that they can be. So I just wanted to have said that. I really, when that happened, I was like, it gave me shivers. And I was years away from becoming a coach, but I was just like, no, no, Phil. You are not the newest member of Metallica.

[30:13] Laura Camien: Yeah, this is an overstep.

[30:14] Susan Blackwell: This is yeah. So even that aside, I do think that this coach had a, I believe his name is Phil Toll, had a transformative effect on them. And Lars Ulrich says that that Metallica, the version that emerged because of those conversations and learning those new tools, that's the Metallica that has been going strong for the past 18 years as a result of that work that they did.

[30:43] Laura Camien: With that coach.

[30:44] Susan Blackwell: With that coach. So he talked about how they are much healthier internally, and I think this is important, that they enjoy what they are doing so much more, which I loved. Because why the fuck do it? If you're making millions and millions of dollars, that's one reason. That's one reason to do it. But God, you know, our life is so brief. So when we say that, you know, collaboration requires hard work, so does a marriage. So does a friendship, but it is worthwhile work. So band member Kirk Hammett said, when you're in a band, I love this, Laura. I love this. I'm excited. When you're in a band, so you can sub in the word collaboration if you prefer, you have a commitment to the music, but the real commitment is to each other.

He said, We need each other to create great things. I love this idea so much because when you're collaborating with fellow creatives, yes, you're committing to the work that you're making, the project you're working on, but you're also committing to each other as people. So in essence, you're committing and contributing to the creation of two things the project you're working on, yes, and hopefully the healthy relationship that you're fostering. And I had never really thought about it that way before, that clearly. Thank you, Kirk Hammett. It is two things. So, Laura, everything that we make, we are working on the thing that we're making, and I think we're working on the relationship.

[32:11] Laura Camien: 100%.

[32:12] Susan Blackwell: One alternative to that would be that if the work is the most important thing, then every single time I choose like the work, and this is how it has to be over the relationship with you. Then that relationship is eroding and eroding and eroding. And you've got to question whether the quality of work can actually stay that high as this erodes. Whereas when you're like, this is about us doing good work, being happy and fulfilled, doing it and being able to help our clients be happy and fulfilled. And if that means that sometimes the sentence we wrote about this, I would have written differently, big deal.

[32:51] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:52] Susan Blackwell: Big deal. Like, who cares? It's just not worth it, it's not worth it. I want to talk a little bit more about that in just a moment because I think that's such a great point that you make. Continuing this thought about like in a collaboration, you're essentially working on two things the project and the relationship. James Hetfield said, you face yourself through the other guys, meaning you face yourself through your collaborators. And I think that's true, whether it's a marriage, a friendship, or collaboration, you have the opportunity to use the relationship as an opportunity/slash space for evolution and positive change in relation to your partner. So you and I, Laura, we are mirroring each other, we're pushing against each other, but it's all an opportunity, in addition to whatever great creative stuff we're making, it's all an opportunity for growth as well. And it can only happen sort of in dialogue with each other in relationship to each other.

[33:51] Susan Blackwell: At the top of the masterclass, the members of Metallica say that they want the students of this masterclass, so me and you and the listeners by extension, they want us to understand what kills creative flow and creativity and how to get the best out of others without dominating them and how not to take things personally. And James Hetfield, who, if you're not familiar, is the lead singer of the band, says that they really used to operate from this space of I want to dominate. That is a very rock and roll, very masculine thing. But he described it as I want my vision to be seen, and I have to squish your vision so mine can be. He goes on to say, there's no way these two visions can see each other. You know, I think he meant there's no way these two visions could coexist. He says, we did not have the knowledge of get ready for this, sparklers. If I light your candle with my candle, my candle's still burning and it's still good. We get to.

[34:53] Laura Camien: Yes.

[34:54] Susan Blackwell: There was no clue about that. Oh. And I was like, oh my God, are you talking SparkFile language or what? Oh that idea was so beautiful to me. And he said that they eventually learned to live together, to compromise, and still have integrity, which I loved. That idea that you can compromise and you can still maintain integrity, that it's not a zero-sum game, that it's my vision or your vision. It's not either or. It is an either or.

[35:27] Laura Camien: That's right.

[35:27] Susan Blackwell: That in fact, my vision combined with your vision or your vision combined with my vision might, if you're open to the possibility, might actually evolve into a greater vision than either one alone.

[35:42] Laura Camien: That's right.

[35:43] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Yes. Robert Trujillo said that communication is key with all of this. And I think this is something that we have all heard one million times, probably modeled more readily in romantic relationships, talk about that, modeled less frequently and talks about friendship. And uh I think, you know, to a certain extent, it's been uh talked about in regards to collaboration. But it really is true. When there is an issue about anything in or around the collaboration, whether it's related to Robert talks about whether it's related to crafting the music or songwriting credit, so like legal issues or even just a vibe, they now talk about it with level heads and they always come back feeling a lot better.

That a little bit of communication goes a long way. And Laura, I will tell you, this is something that I'm still like I am growing, I'm making real progress with it, but there's that part of me that fears conflict. And so there's part of me that's still just like, okay, take a breath. But knowing that I don't have to like armor up, and it's been proven to me time and time and time again that when you and I just go straight into the conversation and talk about something, we always feel better on the other side of the conversation. We always feel better.

[37:02] Laura Camien: But I think that goes to one of those rules you mentioned at the top. Like there's no punishment for how someone was feeling, is feeling, has felt.

[37:13] Susan Blackwell: There's no punishment. And I also think there's a real gift of like coming at communication when you can relinquish the this is the big you, you, all of us, can relinquish the need to be right about something and instead want to understand something. I mean, I feel unstoppable when we do that, that we'll have a conversation. I'm like, it isn't that I was right, it isn't that you were right. We understood each other better after having communicated.

[37:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:45] Susan Blackwell: Lars Ulrich actually addresses this, and he says, if you start with the premise that there's no right or wrong to begin with, then it's all easier to navigate. Because then it's not you're playing it wrong.

[38:00] Laura Camien: That's right.

[38:00] Susan Blackwell: That's not that.

[38:03] Laura Camien: Yes.

[38:04] Susan Blackwell: And he said years ago, they would come off stage and put on the body armor, and then they'd review the show and assess what you did wrong and what you played wrong and what you fucked up, and they'd go around the room for 30 minutes sharing what each other did wrong. Doesn't that sound fun? And then you wonder how how did you come to the brink of falling apart?

[38:25] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[38:27] Susan Blackwell: So they've arrived in the last 10 to 20 years, they've come to this place where they're thinking, these are our songs. We can do what we want with them. So if they play them slower or faster, or somebody changes the key for two bars or forgets the middle section, they're their songs. So you can't play them wrong. And instead of criticizing each other after a show, they laugh about those variations they played because at the end of the day, it's a fucking rock and roll song. So we used to sum this up around Title of Show by saying, and this always brought my blood pressure down by saying, we're not curing cancer, we're not saving France. It's a piece of musical theater. And it really helped to like reframe the perspective in the room and lower the temperature. I just, I love this idea of taking right and wrong off the table.

[39:16] Laura Camien: Yeah, when we really truly, so few of us get taught to communicate, like even like when you're younger, an argument or even the dressed up version of an argument, which might be a debate, even a very civilized debate, we are taught the point of it is to persuade a person to your side that you are right about this.

[39:40] Susan Blackwell: James Hetfield talks about this, how they would go into these interactions and they would try to form basically alliances. So it would be like, can I get more people on my side to make my point? Because it was about winning. It was about winning. So they were saying that a mantra for the band now is whatever is best for the project. That everyone will have a chance to speak and share input, but at the end of the day, whatever is best for the project wins. And there's a sidebar to this little side spark that I think is really relevant to a point you made earlier, Laura. They also note that when a collaborator is really passionate about something, like if one of them feels really strongly that this riff is the right riff at the right time for this song, they will pay attention to that.

They'll take that passionate POV into consideration and weigh it accordingly when making decisions, which I think is actually really wise because they are seeing all four people in this band. They're all very passionate about the band, about the project, about the album, about the song they're making, but they view it as this four-person creative think tank. And these four accomplished musicians all want to add to the creative mix. It's pretty dynamic when you think about it. But when you think about these four strongly intuitive, very seasoned creatives, one of them saying, I'm telling you guys, I'm telling you, I feel very strongly that this is the right choice at the right time, or that they they weight that differently.

I am so here for that because it causes the other person, I think, to question like, so do I have as strong a feeling about that? And if I don't, what would be the case against going with the the person who has the strong feeling? And there are there are times when we come at to an impasse as well. I'm just like, I don't have an answer that's resonating from within me that it's like it's this, it's this. And you do. And so let's go with yours.

[41:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That's the benefit of having like four gut instincts or two gut instincts. Like if there is one standing up and saying, I know this, I know this answer, pick me, pick me, I've got the answer on this. Yeah, great.

[41:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:58] Susan Blackwell: So jumping back in, yeah. James Hetfield stresses how important it is to understand the personalities of your collaborators because if you understand them, you're less likely to take things personally.

[42:10] Susan Blackwell: And Robert Trujillo expands that and says, it's really helpful to understand, for instance, what pisses off your collaborators, what makes them happy. You know, I think about that, Laura. I think about like what are your love languages? What do you need? Right. There's something that you said to me about seven months ago. And I'm like, that's a piece of information I'm tucking away so that I can know Laura and basically support her, and I can behave in the collaboration in a way that helps you to feel safe and feel positive. And it is this you were like, I just need you to be in communication. I just need you to be in communication. And so what do we do? We started utilizing when we had commute time and we had we have these long conversations and they weave in and out of spark file, creativity, business, personal life, some movie we saw, but it really has brought us closer together because you said, I need you to stay in touch, be in communication. And I know what you meant. And it was in response to a very specific juncture in our relationship, but I also think it applies globally to our relationship.

[43:22] Laura Camien: Well, yes. Wow. I mean, I don't remember the moment that I said it or what it applied to, but in the biggest possible sense, it's a great big yes on that. Like I just feel like always to err on the side of overcommunicating rather than undercommunicating.

[43:39] Susan Blackwell: You know, what's interesting is as you say that, it occurred to me that we've talked on this podcast about my history with my narcissistic mom and a little lack of like some foundational beliefs that I didn't get as a kid. And one was this like trust, trust from other people. And the thing that I think communicating has done, and then not just in the Sparks File, but in our 20 years of friendship is just I don't think for one second, like Susan is keeping something from me. Susan is not sharing something with me. Just none of that ever happens because I just know in my bones, if there's anything wrong, Susan will communicate with me. Which is an incredible gift, especially for someone with my, I'll say from my background and what it did to my nervous system in terms of like learning to trust people. The fact that I just don't even question that is just an enormous gift.

[44:36] Laura Camien: I'm glad you love that gift because guess what I got you for Christmas? A coupon, it's homemade, good for 10 free hugs and phone calls. You're like this shitty homemade gift. But I do think there was a time, even in our collaboration, look at us just opening up the cabinet and airing our honey pants. There was a time when you weren't as settled in that. I think that us being more and more practiced in our communication has calmed that old fear down. I feel like I've watched it happen, and I have my own version of that on the flip side on the flippity dippity.

[45:13] Susan Blackwell: You do?

[45:14] Laura Camien: Of course I did. Also, I'll tell you right now.

[45:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh, tell me.

[45:19] Laura Camien: Well, I fear that if I'm honest and direct with you, I will be punished for it.

[45:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[45:26] Laura Camien: But you you don't do it. And time and time and time again, you practice every time it gets easier for me to be like, I'm gonna take a breath and I'm gonna tell you something that may not be your favorite thing to hear, but it's where I'm at, and it is my current truth. And I never get punished for it. And so my nervous system just like quiets down, quiets down, quiets down. So I feel like this is what I mean. And this is what I think James Hetfield is talking about when you meet yourself through your collaborators, you get an opportunity to evolve as a human being through practicing all of this with your collaborators.

[46:06] Susan Blackwell: I think this is what he's talking about. It's like you have a discussion and you set it aside, and three months later it occurs to you, oh, I really think that thing that we talked about three months ago, it's not even come up again. It hasn't been an issue again. And it occurs to you to thank your partner like, wow, I don't know, the tiny tweaks you made, they are noticed and appreciated.

[46:27] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, it's so nice.

[46:29] Susan Blackwell: It's wonderful. Speaking of this communication piece, Kurt Hammett points out that choice of words when you're communicating is really important. So if somebody pitches an option, instead of saying this sounds very rock and roll, like very sort of young rock and roll, instead of saying that goddamn, that sucks, being more supportive, constructive, and participatory too. So he's not just talking about being more supportive and constructive, he's also talking about participating. So they talk a lot about adding a challenge to it and responding with something like, This is my challenge to you. How can we make this better? And in this way, that piece of creative detail that's currently under consideration, you're bringing it to the collective. You're taking responsibility yourself for making it the best that it can be.

[47:20] Susan Blackwell: And he says something that I just want to tip my tiny invisible hat to, which is being disparaging is all part of old school toxic masculinity. We are now moving forward, communicating better. So you want to be constructive and positive, and you want to bring it into the collective and throw it down as a challenge. And I was like, I feel like I've watched these guys grow. And there's still a little bit of a posturing and a little bit of like a, but I'm still my heart is black, like rock and roll. But I'm like, I'm like, okay, I'll take all the showmanship. Because I was gonna say, like the throwing down as a challenge. I'm sort of like, I don't know if I need that. But I get the gist of it, I get the idea of like I would probably add to that, like the absolute knowledge that you don't actually need me to challenge you to make something better.

Like we both want this to be the best that it can be, but challenge is almost you could also see that as maybe gamifying it as well, like in a fun way. You could be like, okay, so if you pick up this challenge, I see both, I see both sides of what you're saying.

[48:27] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. I think that's that's astute, Laura Camien.

[48:31] Susan Blackwell: What I'm here for the astuteness. So I want to share something to that point that James Hetfield, he sort of continues the thought, and he says, giving constructive criticism is an art form, which I completely agree with. And he says they've been getting better at it over time, and that they used to respond with machismo, and now they lean into what their collaborator is doing well, and then challenge the group to improve the piece that feels lacking. So I think that just as a clarifying point around that challenge idea, is recognizing what they feel like is going well and what the collaborator has contributed that is going well, and then challenging the whole group to improve whatever is lacking.

And he goes on to say that criticism, forcing negativity, you don't get the best out of a person that way, which I have to say that may seem super obvious, but I have been in what I would consider pretty evolved collaborations where there is forcing, and I just go porcupine. I'm just like, it's not the best way to get the best out of people. It's really, really not. People, I think, are tempted by the time savings of it of like, well, just tell you what you should do, and it never gets you. It never gets you what you want.

[49:49] Laura Camien: Yeah. But also, I want to say something that about these last few notes that you've shared from them. I keep coming back to this idea of like challenging everyone to be involved and to contribute because I have been a part of pretty major collaborative entities. This is not gonna surprise you, but you know, Blue Man is and was a very collaborative place, like no one single person did anything on their own. Everything was a group effort because of the belief is so strong that five minds is better than four, and ten minds is better than nine minds.

[50:23] Susan Blackwell: It's that is so many minds.

[50:25] Laura Camien: Oh my god. So many minds. But I will tell you this when everyone is in the arena and contributing, it's so different than when someone or multiple people decide their way of contributing is to criticize and tell you what isn't working.

[50:45] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I think that's what they mean when they say that it becomes participatory and they challenge themselves to all seek problem solving and what is the best course forward, et cetera. And even challenging each other. Like, is there a better way to do that? That's what I felt out of that. That really resonated for me. It's a different energy when you're throwing out ideas that you know, good, bad, ugly, what have you, but you are in the problem solving mode and you're making a contribution that you then have to receive feedback on. That puts us all in the arena together, not one person sitting outside of the arena judging.

[51:24] Laura Camien: Totally, totally. So where are we? To recap, so many things. I don't, I can't remember all the things, but I love the idea of taking right and wrong off the table. I love the idea of focusing on what is best for the project, what is best for the project, what is best for the project. I love being thoughtful about communication. I love saying this is what's working. I challenge all of us to direct our focus on this and see if we can make this piece of it as good as these other parts of it.

[51:53] Susan Blackwell: I love it. Another thing that they say, which I think is wise, is having humor about times when the work varies from your idea about how it should be, just viewing it as a variance, having humor about it, not making it wrong. And I want to just say, I want to put my hand up and say, I have totally been the collaborator who was like, You messed up my precious, precious words. You did it wrong. And I am mortified, mortified. And I knew when I was saying it, I was divided, and I was like, I feel so strongly, and this is my truth in this moment. And I was also like, Susan, you're a fucking dick.

[52:33] Laura Camien: You mean you said that to someone who like performed your thing and you were like, That's not it, right there, what you just did.

[52:41] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. That's just one example of me being not the greatest collaborator. I mean, it was a long time ago, but it still like haunts my dreams. So those are some words of wisdom about how oh, didn't mean to leave it on a down note, about how to operate healthily in an existing collaboration, courtesy of our friends in Metallica. But I just thought I wanted to turn the Sparks steering wheel a little bit and talk a little bit about how you identify and select collaborators in the first place. Metallica is talking about how you exist in a healthy collaboration, but how do you even identify and select collaborators in the first place?

[53:19] Susan Blackwell: So after I watched Metallica share their evolution around collaboration, I tootled over to a masterclass offered by a stage designer named S. Devlin. And according to Wikipedia, S is a London-based artist and stage designer who works in a range of media, often mapping light and projected film onto kinetic sculptural forms. I loved listening to what S had to say about collaboration. So she first started by talking about selecting the project she's working on. And she said it all comes down to whether the core project resonates with her. Does she echo to the same vibration of the piece? Has she got anything to add to it? And if it's a yes, then she will definitely do the project. But she said, if it's a no, don't definitely not do the project.

Ask yourself, are there other elements that might evolve and come into focus in a great way? Ask yourself if the people, above all the people, if you really love the people, you might not absolutely be on board yet with what the message is, but if you love the people, then maybe that project could still work.

[54:31] Laura Camien: So let me flesh out this thought here. So in her things to avoid, she again says it's all about the people. If you haven't enjoyed a one hour conversation with the person that you are potentially going to be collaborating with, then you have a really good reason to not spend more time with that person. So think hard about that. If you've spent an hour with them and you're like, huh, they seem great, but they've said three things that sort of hit me the wrong way. Maybe that's not your collaborator.

[54:58] Susan Blackwell: Now, I want to point out she's an artist who goes from project to project. And I believe if she was considering a collaboration with a director who she's going to work with for a finite period of time, she would weigh her decision differently than if she was considering working with an associate designer who's going to come to her home every day. They're going to collaborate together, they're going to eat meals together, they're going to travel together, they're going to stay up late at night problem solving together. I believe that with collaborators like that, she's going to give more thought to those choices.

[55:33] Laura Camien: That's right.

[55:34] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Than people that she's going to work with for a finite period of time.

[55:38] Laura Camien: That's right.

[55:38] Susan Blackwell: So those are sort of the two big pieces of this collaboration conversation. How to choose well in regards to collaborators. And once you have those collaborators in place, how to collaborate well. And and also, Suze, when you think of all everything you've just talked about in terms of having a great collaborative relationship, imagine whether you want to do that work with these people. Are these the people you want to do that work with?

[56:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I mean, we talk a lot about, I mean, we say it in this podcast, smart creative people don't go it alone.

[56:10] Susan Blackwell: And I just want to unpack that a little bit. What do we mean by that? We mean a lot of things. One of the things we mean is making things can be lonely work. So it can be amazingly uplifting to make that work with the support of a group like the Sparks Files Select Group. So you, the artist, are doing your work, but you're surrounded by this human scaffolding of smart, kind-hearted support and accountability. So that's one thing we mean when we say smart creative people don't go it alone, but it can also mean finding like-minded collaborators. And that can be really productive. But I will say I think a collaboration has less chance of being successful if you have unconscious, unspoken desires, what some might call frozen needs that you are trying to address via the collaboration.

So I really think as I've evolved as a human, as you've evolved as a human, as we have gotten therapy, as we've worked our shit out as individuals, it has permitted the collaboration to be more successful because we are not seeking to have our needs met via the collaboration.

[57:21] Laura Camien: That is so true. Does that make sense?

[57:24] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[57:25] Laura Camien: 100%.

[57:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So do what you gotta do, people. Clean up your shit. Um another facet of this is our business coach, Jennifer Rosenfeld. Hi Jennifer! Jennifer has this concept that I am obsessed with about a blank in shining armor. So that could be a collaborator in shining armor, or an agent or a manager or producer or a director or a business partner in shining armor, a magical blank in shining armor who is going to ride in on a white stallion and produce your play or champion your career or make you a star or write material for you to perform or do all the boring business stuff that you are intimidated to learn so that you can tend to the fun part of your business idea. And while that is a very nice idea when you think about a potential collaborator, I'm gonna say that I am more inclined to begin by being my own blank in shining armor, in so much as I can.

[58:25] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[58:26] Susan Blackwell: I wouldn't be in a position to be my musical director. I could not do that because I don't have the and I'm not in this lifetime going to acquire the skills to do that. But I mean, I think building a business is a great creative act and it's a great example of where people think, well, what I want to be doing in my business is this, but maybe I'll partner with somebody and they'll do the parts that are intimidating or unsavory to me.

[58:50] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[58:51] Susan Blackwell: Or I just want to be a working playwright. So I want somebody to produce my work, and I'm like, uh-uh, uh-uh, not so fast. Uh-uh. I would like to, whenever it is possible, encourage folks to consider being their own blank in shining armor.

[59:08] Laura Camien: Yes.

[59:09] Susan Blackwell: Master as much of what you need to kick ass in whatever you want to make. So that might mean being as organized as a stage manager or learning as much as you can about producing, leaning into these learnings, even if in the long run you're not gonna be the one that executes them. I just think doing that work not only makes you a much more informed artist, it also, I will speak for myself, it has made me a much more appealing collaborator, I believe, because I'll be the one that says, Laura, I'm not the most numerate person in the world, but I'll learn QuickBooks. I'm gonna learn it, I'm gonna master it, I'm gonna teach it to you. Like I will do that.

[1:00:02] Laura Camien: It really does, Suze, because you don't have to master all of those things. You, the bigger again, the bigger you. If you're listening to this, you don't have to master everything, but you empower yourself by learning enough about it. If you are imagining some producer's gonna come in and you get to just hand it over. It's it doesn't work like that. That is some show business trope.

[1:00:25] Susan Blackwell: It really doesn't work like that.

[1:00:26] Laura Camien: It really doesn't. And those times when you think, I'm so happy this person is doing all of that. You will kick yourself for not knowing enough to know what questions to ask, what to poke around in and say, now wait a minute, how did you do this? How did you do that? I once asked someone to like direct a short, just a short play, just uh in a festival. And I thought, well, this will be so great. I don't know what their vision is. I just it'll be fun to just sit in the audience and see it. And it was a festival, so it was like eight short plays in a row. And I was sitting and the this particular play started, and they were probably like they said a bunch of lines, and then I heard a line and I was like, wait, I have that line in my show. Well, that's weird. And then I heard the next line, and I was like, This is mine. This is mine. I didn't recognize it, Susan.

[1:01:18] Susan Blackwell: I didn't recognize it.

[1:01:23] Laura Camien: So those are those moments that it's like you've got to know what questions, you've got to know enough to know what questions you would ask. I don't have to learn every single role in every single thing and every, you know, behind the stage, on the stage production, all of that. But if you want to have any control over the quality of your work out in the world, you at least have to have some sense of what questions to ask so that you empower yourself.

[1:01:52] Susan Blackwell: I agree. I don't think this is about maintaining absolute control either. It's about having an informed point of view as a collaborator. And to a certain extent, keeping your hands on the steering wheel. Laura, I feel like we are actually a good example of this because there are certain areas of our business where organically you have taken the lead or I have taken the lead, which is a wonderful thing. But we are conferring with each other all the time. And we have opinions about all of the things that we put out into the world and how they get made and how you know all of the underpinnings of that. And so we should. And you like you might again fantasize about that bookkeeper in shining armor. But let me tell you, if you're looking at your bank statements and wondering where that money went, you will kick yourself for not knowing the program, not being able to go in when you want to.

[1:02:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:02:49] Susan Blackwell: Click around and look at it. The fantasy of like there's gonna be an entire area that I don't even have to think about. It could exist for you, but you probably won't be happy with how it works out. So, friends, if you are on the hunt for potential creative partners, we totally feel you. And again, we really do believe smart creative people don't go it alone. And that healthy creative support can embody many forms of. It can be artistic collaborators, and it can be producers, directors, mentors, teachers, accountability partners, creativity coaches, creativity groups. We have heard it on this very podcast from guests like Lin-Manuel Miranda talking about Tommy Cale and those collaborators, Julianne Moore and Bart Freundlich, Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson-Lopez. That message that we have heard repeatedly is that having a good collaborator really can bring your creativity to life.

[1:03:43] Laura Camien: But again, a collaborator is more than someone who likes you and wants you to succeed, though that is a part of it. So here's a short list that Laura and I have talked about and developed about what an ideal collaborator might look like. It is somebody you hold in high regard and they hold you in high regard. They have a clear understanding of your goal, and you have a clear understanding of their goals. They are as committed as you are. You hold similar values. I think this is really important. And I just want to sidebar and say a value that Laura and I both really value is a commitment to clean, healthy communication, clean as we go. Clean up on aisle seven, we say to each other from time to time.

That is a value that we hold really dear. Kindness is a value that we hold really dear. You want to make sure that your collaborator or potential collaborator has similar values, that they can be available when you are available. That they are genuinely supportive of your success.

[1:04:47] Susan Blackwell: Now, this is really important because, you know, in preparing for the spark, there's a lot of material in addition to my friends in Metallica. I listened to and looked at a lot of stuff, and it's another spark for another day, but I do think sometimes if there is sort of an equal collaboration and somebody has an unresolved need that can undermine this bullet point of genuinely being supportive of everyone in the collaboration's success. So it's something that you really need to look at. And you can't keep communication clean when that exists because there's an expectation that cannot be filled because it hasn't been spoken or communicated. And no one can serve an expectation that isn't clear.

[1:05:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, and sometimes it takes a long time. Sometimes a person, they're not even acting consciously. That's why it's really great to work with. Here's here's a quick tip age, get older, and have a lot of therapy. Like it's super super helpful.

[1:05:45] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Do the work, do the internal work.

[1:05:47] Laura Camien: Yeah. Just kidding, be where you're at, but seriously, do the work. It wants to be someone who communicates in a way that is complimentary to you. I feel like we've talked about that. And it wants to be someone who you trust to have your best interests at heart, and vice versa. You want to have their best interests at heart. So those are just a few things to consider as you're scanning the world. We know you're already scanning the world for sparks. If you're also scanning the world for collaborators, those are some bullet points to keep in mind.

[1:06:16] Susan Blackwell: There is a quote that we love from Amy Poehler, and I just want to read it. We may have already shared it on the podcast. I may have spoken it when I did the spark about Amy Poehler, and it is this I want to be around people that do things. I don't want to be around people anymore that judge or talk about what people do. I want to be around people that dream and support and do things. Thank you, Amy Poehler.

[1:06:42] Laura Camien: Now, if you have already identified and even you've begun working with like-minded folks, awesome. Learn from the wisdom of Metallica and know yourself and what works for you. Know your collaborators and what works for them. Commit to thoughtful and consistent communication and continue to prioritize what works best for the project. And if you're a solo artist and you want to be around like-minded people who support you and want what's best for you and communicate at very high levels, but with kindness, talk to us about the Sparks File Select Group because that is what is cooking over there.

[1:07:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes, indeed.

[1:07:26] Laura Camien: That's my spark.

[1:07:27] Susan Blackwell: That's it, Laura Camien. I just love that spark.

[1:07:30] Laura Camien: It was a king-sized spark.

[1:07:31] Susan Blackwell: It was king size, but I feel like I jumped in so much, I might have like scrambled your eggs there, but I got excited. I really love this spark. It made for a delicious omelet. And I'll tell you, this is just what Metallica and S. Devlin and we have to say on this topic. There is so much out there that I think that this really is just part one of our just investigation around collaboration.

[1:07:56] Laura Camien: I completely, completely agree. There's more to say, but that was so helpful.

[1:08:03] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Laura. I guess that's it.

[1:08:06] Laura Camien: Oh my god. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file. Hey, listen to me. If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, you can email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:08:40] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really does help other listeners find us. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope that you will share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, shout at the devil. I know that's a Motley Crue saying, but if you didn't like it, enter Sandman didn't track. So shout at the devil.

[1:09:03] Laura Camien: Oh shoot.

[1:09:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh shit. If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[1:09:28] Laura Camien: Bye.

[1:09:29] Susan Blackwell: Bye.

[1:09:31] Laura Camien: Shout out the devil.

[1:09:34] Susan Blackwell: When I both into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files. Could be something that I wanna pick or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark file. Sparkile. I jump into my spark files. Let's open up the spark f