This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump into my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark style.

[0:23] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:26] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you are an original member of The Spark File community, welcome back, Sparkler. You're still here.

[1:00] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, where have you been? And welcome, friend. Please know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:12] Laura Camien: You also may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:23] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:32] Laura Camien: Hey, don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:43] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this very podcast. Or a perfectly perfect plan to feature perfectionism.

[1:54] Laura Camien: Oh God.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: God, yes. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks and from time to time we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too that means we have so many more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:11] Laura Camien: If something lights you up we encourage you to please take that thing and make something out of it. Please we beg of you and without further ado let's open up the spark.

[2:18] Susan Blackwell: The spark file came Susie Q I was just thinking about your um AI episode and I've not read this article but I did see a headline I think it's in the Times or in New York magazine it is about the perfect AI boyfriend that will chat with you while you're like taking a walk in the park etc it's a whole thing.

[2:53] Laura Camien: More on that story as it develops. I have a little sparklet that I am super excited to share with you. Is this an okay time?

[3:02] Susan Blackwell: Sure this is the time when we share sparklets.

[3:06] Laura Camien: I know but sometimes like if we have a really really big spark like a big main course spark it's like listen I've got a full meal for a spark but I say give me your sparklet here's an appetizer for you I happened upon a social media account that rocked my world I'm so excited to share it with you.

[3:31] Susan Blackwell: The name of the account on Instagram and TikTok is the Black Moth Society.

[3:39] Laura Camien: This artist refers to themselves as the thrift creeper, which is a fun play on the Crypt Keeper, the thrift creeper. And what they do right here in their bio on Instagram, I purchase innocent knickknacks from thrift stores, turn them into monstrosities, and sneak them back in.

[4:01] Susan Blackwell: They are based in Phoenix, Arizona. And essentially what they do is they go into the store, they purchase a little tchotchke. Like, for instance, maybe it's a little statue of like a little Dutch boy, like a little ceramic figurine.

[4:14] Laura Camien: Oh my god. They take it back to their studio. They might like knock the head off of it, knock the arms and the legs off of it.

[4:23] Susan Blackwell: Then they use, I don't know if they use Sculpey or what they use, but they use essentially some sort of modeling material to put a 3D monster in it. And they are an impeccable artist.

[4:38] Laura Camien: And what they are creating is super duper, like it's very fine work. It's very specific. Not only is the sculpting really, really well done, but also the painting is really well done, but they are straight up horrific monsters that they then put the price tag back on and sneak back into the thrift store so that the thrift store sells it again.

[5:06] Susan Blackwell: No. I think what they do is they basically take a shot and post on their Instagram just like a brief shot of their hand, putting it back on the shelf at the Goodwill.

[5:16] Laura Camien: Tell me the name of this again.

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: The Black Moth Society. And essentially, the followers, the people who love this artist, rush to the thrift store to try to be the first person to grab it and be able to own it.

[5:31] Laura Camien: Oh my God. So that's the concept. I'm completely obsessed, but there's one that I just want to highlight because it is just so amazing.

[5:42] Susan Blackwell: Which one is it?

[5:43] Laura Camien: It's on their Instagram. They took what began life as a little ceramic figurine of a black Labrador. They took it home. They cut off its head before they built the monster head on top of it and painted it before they sealed it up and built it out.

[6:00] Susan Blackwell: They cracked two raw eggs inside of it so that when this thing, it's the eggs are going to start to stink, it's gonna like waft out of its mouth, and it's gonna be like this monstrosity has like sulfuric breath.

[6:20] Laura Camien: No way.

[6:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's gonna smell like rotting eggs.

[6:25] Laura Camien: This is so amazing.

[6:29] Susan Blackwell: Every element starts and finish, top notch. And the craft. I mean, their work is this is not amateur work.

[6:37] Laura Camien: And because of the nature of the way they're doing this work, I'm like, if you're lucky enough to get one of these, I almost was like, I got to get to Phoenix, Arizona and just like post myself up in a goodwill and see if I could get one of these because these are serious pieces.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: The imagination, if you're familiar with the work of Ed Roth, who, you know, back in I think like the 60s and the 70s, did a lot of these sort of like creatures and crazy things that were riding motorcycles, both illustrations and sculptures, very, very influenced by the work of Ed Roth.

[7:14] Laura Camien: And P.S., this isn't this person's real job, obviously. They're not making any money off of this. Their real job is some other job, but because they are anonymous, we don't know what that is.

[7:26] Susan Blackwell: I just want to give a giant spark file shout out to the thrift keeper at the Black Moth Society.

[7:33] Laura Camien: It's amazing. It's incredible. Like I can see a ton of sparklers following them now because every element of it, from the way they find the thing, the sparks of inspiration, what they do with the thing, the inspiration to put it back where others can have it again.

[7:51] Susan Blackwell: I mean, yes to everything this person's doing.

[7:54] Laura Camien: The inspiration to crack two raw eggs inside of it. So over time it starts to stink up your house. That is, I mean, just top-notch. That's inspired work. Good work, thriftkeeper.

[8:08] Susan Blackwell: You must love all those monsters too.

[8:10] Laura Camien: Oh, love them. Love them. Love, love that work. Anyway, I've taken enough of your spark time with my sparklet. Please, please.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: I see the floor.

[8:21] Laura Camien: That was a great sparklet. So, Suze, a few weeks back, we had one of our clients add a little quiz to the Voxer Thread. Listeners, we use an app called Voxer to talk to all of our clients, and everyone in our courses uses it to share sparks and wins and questions they have, et cetera.

[8:40] Susan Blackwell: Just a lively community of creatives in the Voxer Thread.

[8:44] Laura Camien: So I think it was Chris Papas who dropped in a quiz from NPR about the five types of perfectionists. And it was like this quick seven-question quiz that sort of helps you to understand at a glance exactly what your particular perfectionism was all about.

[9:05] Susan Blackwell: And it wasn't the quiz that captivated me so much. It was that was a fun quiz to take. But what happened next was really interesting.

[9:13] Laura Camien: It felt like a hot button moment that kicked off a number of conversations with clients about their perfectionism, how it's held them back or kept them from sharing their work or putting themselves forward for opportunities, et cetera.

[9:30] Susan Blackwell: And I think around that time I got clear on something that I said to you. And I apologize if I said it to you on an earlier episode of the podcast, I really can't remember because we're always talking.

[9:43] Laura Camien: But I was reflecting on what had kept me from sharing some of my own writing for many years of my life. And the answer that I got back from myself was I had put this criteria on it.

[9:56] Susan Blackwell: If I was gonna share something with the world, I wanted it to be smart and funny and heartfelt and deep and emotionally impactful. And I wanted it to be important and culturally relevant, and I wanted it to matter.

[10:11] Laura Camien: I mean, essentially I wanted it to be like life-changing.

[10:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So, in other words, if I was gonna share any work, it needed to be fucking perfect. That was literally an expectation of mine that I put on myself.

[10:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[10:27] Susan Blackwell: And if I couldn't be those things, then I was just gonna keep it to myself.

[10:30] Laura Camien: I don't want to jump your spark and please tell me if I am. But do you feel that just putting out volumes of Sparks File episodes and curriculum? Has that cured you a little bit of that?

[10:45] Susan Blackwell: Because it's like volume, volume, volume.

[10:47] Laura Camien: Yes. I mean, volume is a was definitely a part of it. I will talk a little bit about that. Yes. I think there's a lot of elements to The Spark File that has helped me.

[10:56] Susan Blackwell: But when I like reflect back, I realized like I didn't have this expectation of all the work that I did. I did a shit ton of work in my life.

[11:04] Laura Camien: And if I was writing with others, or if I was writing for Blue Man Group, like writing their book, or anything I was working on, I didn't have that expectation.

[11:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I shared my work all the time. I got a lot of feedback on my work all the time. It was a very collaborative culture.

[11:24] Laura Camien: So my work might have like 10 sets of hands on it. And I was the person that sort of originated here's this document. And then everybody pile on with various opinions.

[11:34] Susan Blackwell: And I thought that was really fun to sort of my next job would be to cohere everybody's ideas together, do the next draft that represented, you know, all of our thoughts. And I enjoyed that work as well.

[11:47] Laura Camien: But I realized like, wow, what a hugely vastly different set of expectations I had. I was doing work in the realm of other people's work or with other people versus this is my voice, this is my work, solely mine. I'm responsible for it, good or bad.

[12:06] Susan Blackwell: That had a different set.

[12:10] Laura Camien: One million percent. This makes so much sense to me. Yes, yes, yes.

[12:14] Susan Blackwell: Crazy, right?

[12:16] Laura Camien: Not crazy.

[12:16] Susan Blackwell: Well, so human. I look at it now, I'm like, wow, okay. So I've been coming back to some of my own creative work now and revisiting it, and I'm so excited to experience how I've evolved over time.

[12:33] Laura Camien: You know what I mean?

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: Like, I wasn't cognizant of all of the work I've been doing on myself and progressing in this way, but I have been. And I feel so much more capable of sharing my personal work and relieving it of the need to be all of those things, the need to be perfect.

[12:51] Laura Camien: Yeah. And I do think a lot of it has to do with the internal work that I've done by myself or with coaches or with therapists over the years.

[12:59] Susan Blackwell: But I also have to credit our collective work at The Spark File.

[13:05] Laura Camien: Yeah. Because like you and I both feel if we're gonna ask our clients to be brave and put their work out there, we should be brave enough to do the same.

[13:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And we are in our podcast episodes and our curriculum and our workshops and our speaking engagements. Like we're doing that all the time.

[13:22] Laura Camien: And we're committing to learning new things. And my God, I think the fastest way probably to push yourself to learn more is to become a teacher of any kind.

[13:33] Susan Blackwell: Because you just feel that flame of like, well, you know, this genuine compulsion to keep learning and keep growing and evolving.

[13:40] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[13:41] Susan Blackwell: So I'm super excited about this. And I was excited when this topic came up with our clients. I just gave you sort of one example of perfectionism, just holding back on sharing my work because it's not perfect yet.

[13:54] Laura Camien: But perfectionism can show up in a lot of different ways. It is a complex and multi-dimensional trait, and everyone's experience of it can be different.

[14:05] Susan Blackwell: Uh, this is an amazing spark. And I feel like we've never done an episode of the podcast about this before.

[14:13] Laura Camien: And I'm like, oh, it's one of those things, it's like the very air that we breathe, like it's so close to us.

[14:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes, maybe I couldn't even see it to section it out and do a spark on it.

[14:25] Laura Camien: Because we've been living and breathing it, yeah.

[14:27] Susan Blackwell: I'm just like shaking my head because I'm like four seasons in. And maybe it's the kind of folks that become artists or the folks that become artists that we work with, or just the nature of how our brains are cultivated in this modern society.

[14:44] Laura Camien: But I feel like so many people suffer under this. It is so prevalent, and I love that you're doing this. That's all I wanted to say.

[14:54] Susan Blackwell: Well, let's start at the beginning then. Perfectionism is defined as the tendency to hold oneself or others to extremely high standards of performance, often accompanied by a critical evaluation of one's own or others' actions, thoughts, or behaviors. Perfectionism can manifest as an unrelenting pursuit of flawlessness, an obsession with avoiding mistakes, and a belief that anything less than perfection is unacceptable.

[15:26] Laura Camien: Now, I want to say this, Susan. This might sound really odd, but I have to confess something. And I think it is because I thought that if I was a perfectionist, I'd be a hell of a lot closer to perfect than I am. Does that make any sense?

[15:53] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Like it does. A lack of self-esteem kept me from thinking, hey, I'm struggling with perfectionism. Like I wasn't perfect enough to consider myself a perfectionist. But as I learned more about it, I'm like, oh, I recognize this. But if you had used the phrase not good enough, I would be the first person. My hand would go flying into the air. I feel like I'm not good enough. That resonated with me, which is how I, like so many people, began to get familiar with the work of Brene Brown. But I will circle back to that in just a moment.

[16:30] Laura Camien: If you are struggling or wondering if you're struggling with perfectionism, here are a few ways that you can spot it in yourself or in others. And Susan, please chime in if any of these resonate for you. So number one, you set high standards. Perfectionists set extremely high and often unrealistic standards for themselves, i.e., like my work has to be this long list of things to be any good. And they can be extremely hard on themselves when they fail to meet those standards. So it could be like the criteria I have for my work, but Susan, it can also be literally in the to-do list that we make. They are a mile long. Sometimes for our day off, what we plan to do and accomplish is a mile long. And we feel frustrated when we didn't get through it. But it wasn't humanly possible in the first place.

[17:22] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh. That's perfectionism.

[17:24] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. Next up, we have fear of failure. Perfectionists have an intense fear of failure, and they see mistakes as evidence of their inadequacy. They may avoid taking risks or trying new things in order to avoid making mistakes, right? So, how many people? This is a big one. How many people are keeping themselves from even trying something new? Uh-huh. Even trying something that they've always been curious about or interested in just because they fear that they'll fail on their first time out or on their tenth time out. Oh my God. They just avoid even trying.

[18:04] Susan Blackwell: I remember having a conversation with my therapist, oh, a million years ago, and talking about this very concept. And the way that I recollect she discussed it was the reason why I was holding on to this, like, I've got to try to be perfect. The fear is if somebody even sees the tiniest crickle crack, which of course they're going to because we're human beings. But she was like, you're afraid that if anybody sees the crickle crack, then they're going to see all the other, she didn't use these words, but I'm using these words like all the other, like the bullshit and the trauma and the things that we are most afraid of, people knowing about us, that if they see the tiny crickle crack, they're going to see it all. And it's all gonna come like crashing down. 100% the dark depths of who we are and the ways in which we are not good enough. And we are afraid of people seeing that.

[19:03] Laura Camien: Totally, totally. Another thing you might experience if you're a perfectionist is procrastination. Perfectionists struggle with procrastination because they feel overwhelmed by the thought of not being able to do something perfectly, or they may delay starting a task until they feel ready to do it perfectly, which can lead to missed deadlines and increased stress. And oh my God, this one hit me because I will think about something for a long, long time and have the image of me completing it perfectly. And then I will run out of time to do it perfectly, as if that was even possible in the first place.

[19:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But just like with imposter syndrome, you can procrastinate, then not do a great job. And look at that, you have a perfect excuse or reason why you failed because you didn't have enough time.

[19:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, you build a body of evidence that supports that.

[19:57] Susan Blackwell: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[19:59] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. So, number four, perfectionist thinking. Perfectionists have a tendency to engage in black and white thinking, where things are either perfect or a failure. And they may have difficulty seeing the gray areas or appreciating the progress that they've made. I was talking about this recently, I think with you, Susan, in regards to like notes about a note session for a script that I'm writing. In my early, early years, I couldn't hold two opposing thoughts in my mind. For example, if we read a draft of a script and people rave and say, it's amazing. I loved this part, I love that part. You're so good at this. And then you move on to in the conversation and the feedback and ways to improve it or level up, and you have a long list of changes and edits and rewrites to make. That would stop me. Like a lot of people would stop right there. I used to stop right there because both things can't be true, or so I thought.

[21:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It can't be amazing and wonderful and need so much more work at the same time.

[21:16] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. But now I realize yes, it can. Yes, it can. And creating something meaningful, you and I talk about this all the time. Creating long-form work that is meaningful, it takes time. It takes a lot of work. If you can embrace the fact that things are not black and white, progress can be incremental, you're much more likely to complete work and move through this perfectionism that you can understand you're doing great work and it's not finished yet. That's it. That's all you're doing it. So keep going.

[21:54] Susan Blackwell: That concept that you just shared about developing the ability to hold two or more thoughts almost simultaneously.

[22:04] Laura Camien: Yeah. I feel like that is a great thing to develop. I think it's extraordinarily helpful in so many ways. And again, doing the spark enabled me to actually see how much progress I've made as a human being, not just as a creative, but as a human being over 20 years. Because in my 20s or even 30s, compliments about my work followed by, here's what needs to change about it, would leave me with like, well, that note about what needs to change has now negated all of those compliments in my mind.

[22:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. You know what I mean? I just it couldn't both exist.

[22:50] Laura Camien: So the next sign of perfectionism is micromanaging. Perfectionists may feel that no one can do things as well as they can and may therefore micromanage others. And this can lead to strained relationships and a lack of trust.

[23:15] Susan Blackwell: Now I know you're laughing, so I'm gonna let you talk about this. This, but what I wrote in my spark is like this isn't my issue so much, but other people who are affected by perfectionism, it affects them in this way. Like it shows up in different ways.

[23:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think this is something that I still, you know, it shows up in different ways in my creativity and in our business, where I'm sort of like, I have to be the one who does the bookkeeping.

[23:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[23:42] Laura Camien: Like because nobody is going to care as much about our bookkeeping and its accuracy as I am.

[23:49] Susan Blackwell: And you're not wrong.

[23:50] Laura Camien: I may or may not be wrong, but it's like uh I noticed that I we've talked about this extensively, and I'm really, really working on this. I notice sometimes that whereas historically I would be like, I need to do this and I need to maintain control over this. Instead of micromanaging my other gear, I completely give it over, and I'm like, bye.

[24:15] Susan Blackwell: That may be a little of that black and white thinking too. It's like either you're gonna be in control or you release.

[24:20] Laura Camien: You think uh yes, I feel very seen. I feel very seen. My heart is open though, and I'm willing to learn and grow.

[24:28] Susan Blackwell: Well, it's funny that you mentioned control because separate and and different and distinct from micromanagement, listed here in perfectionism behavior is the need for control. Perfectionists may need to control their environment and the people around them to ensure that everything is done perfectly. And I've told you this again, this one isn't my bag. And I think it's because I had an older sister who kind of tossed me around when we were kids. I love you, Marcy. I love you so much. But in order to cope with that environment, like I learned to downshift. If I'm in the presence of someone who needs to control, I just always think, okay, it's more important to them to be in control. So I will just hop in the passenger seat and I'll ride along.

But for me, that can lead to people thinking that I'm weak. And when the moment comes, as it always does at some point, when it becomes clear to them that I am not in fact weak, like I am not in fact a doormat, that can sometimes not go over so well because they had gotten accustomed to like that dynamic.

[25:36] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. That's probably a spark for another day. But I call that spark do not mistake my kindness for weakness.

[25:42] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh. And like that's come up in my life before because I will, I will just downshift and be like, okay, great, that's yours. But it's a real thing. But it's interesting that we can both identify so much with like, oh my God, I think perfectionism has been affecting my life. And we can read this list and be like, oh, for me, it affects me this way, for you it affects you that way. Do you know what I mean?

[26:09] Laura Camien: Yes. And I think that was, I did not take the quiz that you were referring to at the outset, but I know there were all these little like, oh, I'm a this type of a perfectionist. And it's all these little like variables and multiple combinations depending on what is dominant for you.

[26:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[26:26] Laura Camien: And I think you're spot on that it sh is going to look different and feel different as it manifests in different people. It's multidimensional.

[26:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And then the last thing to look for, if you're wondering, do I have this or do I struggle with this? Is self-criticism. Perfectionists are highly self-critical and may struggle with feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem. So, like I said, I would not have put myself in the category of perfectionist because I was not good enough to be a perfectionist.

[27:03] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[27:05] Susan Blackwell: So ridiculous. But I remember, like, even having thoughts, I'm like, I'm clearly not. Look at my messy bedroom. Look at the clothes all over the floor. A perfectionist wouldn't live like this. You know what I mean?

[27:15] Laura Camien: Right.

[27:15] Susan Blackwell: So I felt I was not good enough to be a perfectionist until I began to get familiar with the work of Brene Brown. And of course, we're all familiar with her now. But back in 2010, Brene Brown wrote the book, The Gifts of Imperfection.

[27:33] Laura Camien: Right.

[27:34] Susan Blackwell: So she's absolutely everywhere now. And her work resonates with millions and millions of people. But in 2010, this was only her second book. And the idea of embracing imperfection was just starting to grow, mostly due to her and her work. Uh-huh. But I remember seeing genuinely clear as a bell in my mind. I remember seeing the title of her book, The Gifts of Imperfection, Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are. And I thought, yes, imperfection. That resonates with me. That I see myself in imperfection. And that subtitle, let go of who you think you're supposed to be and embrace who you are, rattled me to my core because I thought that is literally my life's work. Wow. Trying to put down the years of training, being who I thought I needed to be in order to be accepted and be liked by everyone, and instead be brave enough to just be me.

[28:38] Laura Camien: Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[28:40] Susan Blackwell: I do, I do. And you've known me through all of this. Like you knew me back then. And I'm well aware that like being liked by everyone is not a bad thing inherently in and of itself. It's a lovely thing. But if you are not being authentically yourself, if you're changing yourself in order to gain approval, then that love from other people doesn't mean jack shit.

[29:07] Laura Camien: I mean, it doesn't mean diddly squat. I mean, it won't fill you up. It won't even feel that good because there's a part of you deep down that knows all those people like you because you have changed or altered yourself or your behaviors in order to please them.

[29:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[29:26] Laura Camien: And the fact is, and you know deep down, if you revealed your true self and behaved more authentically, some of those people would fall away.

[29:34] Susan Blackwell: They would not be pleased.

[29:36] Laura Camien: Yeah. But as we've all learned, thanks very much in part to Brene Brown.

[29:42] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Brene.

[29:43] Laura Camien: Thanks, Brene. That's okay because those spots will be filled with new people who absolutely love you exactly as you are when you show up as your authentic self.

[29:55] Susan Blackwell: And that feels amazing.

[29:56] Laura Camien: Yeah. But that takes work. So all of those ideas were kind of new 10 to 15 years ago, or at least they weren't in the cultural mainstream.

[30:07] Susan Blackwell: But I was thirsty for them. Clearly, the whole world was thirsty for them because Brene Brown has become Brene Brown.

[30:15] Laura Camien: And her research into shame and vulnerability and imperfection and resilience just took off.

[30:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:24] Laura Camien: So in this book, The Gifts of Imperfection, Brene Brown shares 10 guideposts to help you embrace your imperfection and cultivate your self-worth because that's where it's all stemming from. That's what perfectionism is all about—a lack of self-worth, a seeking of that validation from outside yourself, and the belief that if you could just be absolutely perfect, you would gain that validation.

[30:48] Susan Blackwell: But here's a quick overview of the 10 guideposts.

[30:51] Laura Camien: Number one, cultivate authenticity. Embrace who you really are rather than trying to be someone else to fit in.

[31:00] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien, I feel like that is your like print it on your sweatshirt.

[31:05] Laura Camien: It's on it's on my neck tattoo.

[31:07] Susan Blackwell: That is your neck tattoo.

[31:09] Laura Camien: Cultivate authenticity is your jam.

[31:12] Laura Camien: I mean, only because again, a shout out to fellow children of narcissists. It took a long time to find out who I really was. And then it took a lot of time to allow myself to be that person.

[31:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[31:28] Laura Camien: So thank you to all of the people that I learned from that made it safe and okay.

[31:35] Susan Blackwell: Number two, and this is something I was so excited to be like, wow, I've really worked on this too. Cultivate self-compassion, be kind and gentle with yourself rather than self-critical or judgmental.

[31:48] Laura Camien: And I had the thing that so many have that we'll talk about later, which is, but I think that being hard on myself is the reason why I get anything done.

[31:57] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[31:58] Laura Camien: Denied.

[31:59] Susan Blackwell: Denied.

[32:01] Laura Camien: Okay. Number three, cultivate a resilient spirit. Build your resilience by learning how to bounce back from setbacks and disappointments.

[32:10] Susan Blackwell: Guess what? You can't build that if you don't even try something new.

[32:15] Laura Camien: You stay in that safe zone.

[32:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[32:16] Laura Camien: Number four, cultivate gratitude and joy. Practice gratitude and focus on the positive things in your life.

[32:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[32:24] Laura Camien: Five, cultivate intuition and trusting faith. Listen to your intuition and trust that things will work out in the end.

[32:32] Susan Blackwell: Six, cultivate creativity, baby.

[32:37] Laura Camien: Express yourself. Express yourself. Engage in creative pursuits, even if you don't consider yourself an artist.

[32:47] Susan Blackwell: Brene Brown is a huge proponent of creativity and all that we can gain from it as human beings.

[32:55] Laura Camien: Huh.

[32:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, more on that in a minute. Number seven, cultivate play and rest. Take breaks, have fun, allow yourself to relax and recharge.

[33:05] Laura Camien: I mean, how ahead of the game was she? In 2010, these are not the things that were being talked about.

[33:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[33:12] Laura Camien: Now you look at this list and it's like, oh yeah, yes, yes, yes.

[33:17] Susan Blackwell: Number eight, cultivate calm and stillness. Practice mindfulness and meditation to find peace in the present moment.

[33:26] Laura Camien: Number nine, cultivate meaningful work. Find work that feels meaningful and fulfilling to you.

[33:34] Susan Blackwell: Hello, Simon Sinek, finding your uh purpose.

[33:38] Laura Camien: And number 10, cultivate laughter, song, and dance. Embrace joy and laughter in your life and don't take yourself too seriously.

[33:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that makes sense.

[33:49] Laura Camien: Well, some of them I'm like, get it, I get it, I get it. And then some of them I'm like, I believe Brene Brown, and I believe that this is all research based. Sometimes I'm just always surprised whether if it's work like this or physical therapy, what the exercise is that's going to yield growth, evolution, or results.

[34:08] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[34:09] Laura Camien: And so some of the on that list, I'm like, check, check, check. Like I get how like the one about cultivating laughter and what was that one?

[34:19] Susan Blackwell: Song and dance.

[34:22] Laura Camien: I'm like, if you are willing to have a sense of humor about things, to laugh, to make an idiot out of yourself, singing and dancing. It is like a lighter, like talk about crackling, you know, and vulnerability and just like spirit.

[34:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[34:40] Laura Camien: If that makes sense.

[34:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Which seems like an antidote to that perfectionistic, yes, what I think of as sort of brittle and rigid tendency.

[34:50] Laura Camien: And then some of them I'm like, huh. Who knew? Who knew that that could help you?

[34:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[34:57] Laura Camien: But I think that could also go back to how are you experiencing perfectionism? And therefore, some of these things would be great for you and how someone else is. But that last one, that laughter, song and dance, I gotta tell you, I'll tell you a little bit in code, but Wes was telling me that there's this movie coming out that is going to, it's a comedy and it pokes fun at a particular, very niche microcosm of our world.

[35:27] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[35:28] Laura Camien: And he was saying that he noticed online that there were people who were like, I'm not for this movie. This is gonna be a monstrosity. I can't go through this. And I was like, oh, you're kidding me. You're kidding me. It's a comedy, it's gonna be amazing.

[35:44] Susan Blackwell: And he was like, Well, yeah, babe, because you and I understand that life is a comedy, and they're operating under the presumption that life is a tragedy.

[35:54] Laura Camien: Oh, interesting.

[35:56] Susan Blackwell: I was like, oh my God, I laugh so hard. But I was also like, we do approach it that way. I think we have to. I mean, my and my dad, my parents, even my mom, I think were like, you gotta laugh. That was kind of a thing of like, well, you kind of have to laugh. Because the alternative is to think about like life is a tragedy and goodness, but a downer all the time.

[36:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[36:22] Susan Blackwell: So overall, these guideposts, the gifts of imperfection, are meant to help us let go of the pressure to be perfect and instead cultivate a more authentic and joyful, fulfilling life.

[36:34] Laura Camien: Doing the spark and returning to that book, revisiting those guideposts, it's been very validating for me because I'm reflecting on how many changes I've made in my life and my outlook since then. And wow, what a difference.

[36:51] Susan Blackwell: And I say that not to just be like, oh, yay, Laura, great for you.

[36:55] Laura Camien: Shut the fuck up, Laura. I'm not there yet. I'm not trying to be obnoxious about it. What I'm saying is those small things, simply not being so hard on myself.

[37:05] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[37:06] Laura Camien: I wasn't necessarily making this change with like intentionally, I'm gonna work on my perfectionism by not being so hard on myself. These were just small incremental changes that I made over 15 years' time. It takes time, but each of those small little things makes a difference.

[37:27] Susan Blackwell: Trust me, there is always room for more improvement.

[37:31] Laura Camien: Yeah, said the perfectionist in me. But embracing our authenticity and enjoying our imperfections can truly be life changing.

[37:41] Susan Blackwell: Was that whole thing just really obnoxious? What I just said.

[37:44] Laura Camien: No, I th I'm just sitting here kind of basking in the glory of it. And I'm thinking about younger us, each in our own version of a perfectionistic trap.

[37:59] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:00] Laura Camien: And I still have shades of like there, I can still smell a few of those that you mentioned, especially. I'm just like, oh yeah, that old friend is still with me.

[38:12] Susan Blackwell: But then also, I'm just gonna mirror back to you what you said, but because it's fresh to me because I'm being sparked right now. Yeah, it's like we have learned from some great teachers over time, including each other.

[38:26] Laura Camien: Thank you, Susie Blackwell. And practiced another option. Now, sometimes I still get like all tangled up in kind of an old way of being. But even that, we've talked about there are certain specific aspects of this that we have talked about as recently as this week, where I'm like, I am working actively on this to try to just kind of evolve and grow in this area.

[38:51] Susan Blackwell: Like I've got my own number, and when I can, I'm gonna try to grow on this a little bit. Maybe rock a new neural pathway here or there.

[39:00] Laura Camien: But I'm just kind of basking in the glory of being where we are now.

[39:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:05] Laura Camien: Still room to grow.

[39:06] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[39:07] Laura Camien: I just feel like I have spent my youth. You wouldn't maybe know it from the outside because I was such a ding-dong, but there was definitely like a brittleness that was tied to this perfectionism.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: I mean, all of it, Suze, and me too. Even in this last week, I definitely want to say it's not that it's not there. I have more awareness of it.

[39:27] Laura Camien: I think I was telling you the self-criticism thing. That's tough for me. And my brain can find the insult in a compliment.

[39:39] Susan Blackwell: The other day we had someone, it was so sweet, it was nice and was so well intended. But a vocal coach friend of ours said, Oh my God, Laura, I've never heard your voice sound better. Yours your voice sounds amazing.

[39:59] Laura Camien: Like later, I was like, just want you to know what my brain would have done in the past. I'm fine, and it's I'm not, I'm not upset, and I'm not not beating myself up, but I have an awareness when my brain is like, I can see the insults in your compliment. It's hiding in plain sight. You've never liked my voice, and you like it now because I sound like, you know, because I sound like a totally different person.

[40:23] Susan Blackwell: And so that kind of thing could have spun me up 20 years ago. That well-intentioned compliment could have been enough to like knock me out of the game for a week because my mind was spinning out on it.

[40:37] Laura Camien: Isn't that something? That's the kind of progress I'm talking about. But it's still, you still have an awareness of it.

[40:44] Susan Blackwell: So if shedding our perfectionism is so great, why aren't we all shedding our perfectionism?

[40:44] Laura Camien: Why aren't we all doing it? Why are all the kids doing it?

[40:53] Susan Blackwell: Right. One of the tricky things is that we mentioned this before, but many of us, like we want to strive for excellence. I know I do, I know you do.

[41:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:04] Susan Blackwell: But there's a part of us that equates that striving for excellence with this push to be perfect.

[41:10] Laura Camien: We think that perfectionism is the very thing that is gonna get us to where we aspire to be.

[41:16] Susan Blackwell: It's so fucking true.

[41:18] Laura Camien: God damn it. I mean, my God, if I'm falling short while trying to be perfect, what the hell's gonna happen if I'm not even trying to be perfect?

[41:29] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[41:30] Laura Camien: Like I said before, I was not good enough to be a perfectionist. If I stop trying to be perfect, how far short am I gonna fall?

[41:37] Susan Blackwell: But this is like a Zen Cohen. This is like what is the sound of one hand clapping?

[41:43] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[41:43] Susan Blackwell: Because I really do think that you're saying this, this is your whole spark, but like get in there.

[41:49] Laura Camien: That striving, get in there, girl. That striving for excellence via the root of perfectionism is the opposite of what is not only necessary to take steps towards excellent, but also just the experience of living while taking the root of perfectionism versus taking some other roots.

[42:18] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[42:18] Laura Camien: It's just like there's no comparison.

[42:21] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[42:22] Laura Camien: Like I do.

[42:23] Susan Blackwell: I do.

[42:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:24] Susan Blackwell: We think the opposite of perfection is complete failure.

[42:29] Laura Camien: And the opposite of perfectionism would be a lack of even trying, just being a sloth or slovenly.

[42:37] Susan Blackwell: But that's not it.

[42:38] Laura Camien: I remember my therapist used to say, you think if you're not perfect, you'll die. And I was like, that's extreme, but that is where like our lizard brain is just like if you don't do it perfectly, that's that black and white thinking.

[42:54] Susan Blackwell: So if you do not live perfectly, you die.

[42:57] Laura Camien: These are the options. Choose wisely.

[43:00] Susan Blackwell: But the thing is the opposite of perfection is actually just embracing imperfection and accepting that things don't have to be perfect.

[43:12] Laura Camien: That's the crazy part. Just accepting that is gonna result in being comfortable with mistakes and failures.

[43:21] Susan Blackwell: And being comfortable doesn't mean settling for mistakes and failures.

[43:27] Laura Camien: It means after a mistake or what you deem to be a failure, you assess what you learned, you move on to the next, you get better. It doesn't mean you stop now because you failed. It means you learn from it and you grow.

[43:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. The opposite of perfectionism can mean focusing on progress.

[43:44] Susan Blackwell: Progress, not perfection, which you and I have embraced wholeheartedly in the four years that the Sparks File has existed.

[43:53] Laura Camien: Has it been four years?

[43:55] Susan Blackwell: It has.

[43:56] Laura Camien: Jesus.

[43:57] Susan Blackwell: I mean, since we launched the podcast.

[43:59] Laura Camien: Happy Sparks anniversary.

[44:01] Susan Blackwell: But yes, that's another great neck tattoo.

[44:04] Susan Blackwell: Progress, not perfection.

[44:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:07] Laura Camien: And accepting your imperfections, being kind to yourself, valuing effort and your growth over achievement and accolades from other people and stuff, but it's so worthwhile.

[44:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[44:23] Susan Blackwell: The relationship between not feeling good enough and perfectionism is this self-perpetuating cycle.

[44:31] Laura Camien: The more we strive for perfection, the more we reinforce the belief that we are not good enough, which in turn fuels our perfectionism, and we dig in our heels and we try even harder.

[44:42] Susan Blackwell: My God.

[44:43] Laura Camien: Breaking this cycle requires us to challenge the belief that our worthiness is tied to our achievements, and instead cultivate a sense of self-worth based on our inherent value as human beings.

[45:01] Susan Blackwell: Now that is an idea whose time has come, and we are just starting to see it bubble and percolate in the mainstream population that we are not valued based on our achievement and our output.

[45:34] Laura Camien: Sure, love or validation that we get from other people, accomplishments, or productivity.

[45:41] Susan Blackwell: So, Brene Brown may be the best known and possibly most influential person helping all of us embrace our imperfections right now, but there are many, many other experts in this field.

[45:52] Laura Camien: Dr. Paul Hewitt, professor of psychology at the University of British Columbia, he has said perfectionism is not a healthy striving for excellence. It is a crippling emotional and mental burden that interferes with the enjoyment of life.

[46:06] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[46:07] Laura Camien: Right?

[46:08] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[46:10] Laura Camien: It is literally going to keep you from having as happy and satisfying life as you could have.

[46:15] Susan Blackwell: This is what I was trying to say earlier.

[46:17] Laura Camien: Dr. Paul put it much better, that it kind of fucks you in multiple ways because it not only is the Zen Cohen of like if you're aiming for perfection or excellence via the root of perfection, haha, it's a trick.

[46:32] Susan Blackwell: The road actually doesn't go there.

[46:35] Laura Camien: But also it makes the journey miserable.

[46:38] Susan Blackwell: Miserable journey never to arrive.

[46:41] Laura Camien: That's such a beautiful metaphor, Susan.

[46:44] Susan Blackwell: Don't do not tattoo that on your neck.

[46:47] Laura Camien: Don't take that right turn.

[46:49] Laura Camien: Like, don't go down that road.

[46:50] Laura Camien: Miserable journey never to arrive.

[46:53] Laura Camien: He stresses that perfectionism has been linked to depression, anxiety, eating disorders, and a whole bunch of other mental health issues.

[47:02] Susan Blackwell: Of course it has.

[47:03] Laura Camien: Of course it has.

[47:04] Susan Blackwell: Of course.

[47:05] Laura Camien: Dr. Harriet Breaker, author of The Type E Woman, How to Overcome the Stress of Being Everything to Everybody. She has said perfectionism is a self-defeating behavior pattern that blocks intimacy and connection with others.

[47:20] Susan Blackwell: Perfectionists often have an all-or-nothing mindset that can lead to burnout and exhaustion.

[47:26] Laura Camien: Like all these other things we've been talking about, and right under our noses is this perfectionism.

[47:33] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Carol Dweck, author of Mindset, The New Psychology of Success, a Growth Mindset.

[47:40] Laura Camien: I feel like we've talked, we've talked about Carol Dweck.

[47:43] Susan Blackwell: We did a spark about Mindset.

[47:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:44] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[47:45] Laura Camien: So I sure did.

[47:46] Laura Camien: Growth mindset is essential for overcoming perfectionism. It involves embracing challenges and seeing failures as opportunities for growth and learning.

[47:55] Susan Blackwell: She says we need to teach children and adults that their worth is not based on their achievements, but rather on their effort and their willingness to learn.

[48:05] Laura Camien: There's one other book I want to mention, Suze.

[48:08] Laura Camien: I was thinking about, I might do a whole spark on this, and I still might.

[48:13] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[48:14] Laura Camien: But I recently read a book called Welcome Home, a guide to building a home for your soul by Najwa Zebian.

[48:24] Laura Camien: This book was fantastic for anybody who resonates with that aspect of perfectionism that comes from the need for external validation.

[48:35] Laura Camien: This feeling that if we do enough or achieve enough, and that doing and achieving is recognized and validated by others, we might be able to feel love for ourselves, that we might feel worthy of love, that we might feel good enough.

[48:49] Susan Blackwell: I mean, this book is full of exercises and thought work helping you build a home inside yourself rather than looking to build it inside of someone else.

[49:00] Laura Camien: So she talks a lot about like romantic love and like that urge to build your nest inside of someone else. I felt, as I read this, it similarly, I felt as I was reading it like I had worked through a lot of these issues, but I couldn't shake the feeling that if I had had this book 20 years ago, even 15 years ago, I could have perhaps moved through these things a bit more elegantly with more intentionality and understanding of what I was going through.

[49:31] Laura Camien: Because I just was like, this is amazing. It goes, it's fully in depth, and really the exercise work covers a lot. She doesn't call it perfectionism, but I'm like, these things are related.

[49:44] Laura Camien: So perhaps we'll swing back on that book. But in the meantime, if external validation is something that seems to motivate you, perhaps a bit more than you would like, pick up a copy of Welcome Home.

[49:56] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of all this, Suze? Perfectionism. It's a pretty freaking common trait among high achievers. It shows up in a variety of ways. Here's some thoughts.

[50:06] Laura Camien: Again, it may differ in the way that you experience it, but try being kind to yourself. I'll admit, like a little bit of eye rolling inside myself, like when therapists would say, let's do a visualization and imagine that little Laura inside of you.

[50:23] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[50:24] Laura Camien: And, or imagine, and sometimes because of my eye roll, I think therapists would be like, imagine one of your nieces who you love so much.

[50:32] Susan Blackwell: I love them, love them so much.

[50:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:35] Laura Camien: Would you ever tell that little Laura or that niece of yours that she sucks?

[50:41] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[50:42] Laura Camien: No, you wouldn't. You would never say that. You would be sweet. You would hug her, you would say, You did a great job. You would say, You're growing and you're learning. Keep going. That is literally what we need to do for ourselves.

[50:56] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[50:57] Laura Camien: Try laughing at your imperfections, a sense of humor is going to go a long way. In the gifts of imperfection, Brene Brown argues that creativity is essential for living a fulfilling life.

[51:11] Laura Camien: And it requires vulnerability and the willingness to take risks. So fostering your creativity is going to help you overcome your perfectionism for sure.

[51:21] Susan Blackwell: Overcoming your perfectionism is also going to help you foster your creativity.

[51:25] Laura Camien: So this is a win-win.

[51:27] Susan Blackwell: Love it.

[51:27] Laura Camien: A lot of great creative work has come from artists exploring the topic of perfectionism and maybe how it has lived in them.

[51:35] Laura Camien: Movies like Black Swan, The Aviator, which is about Howard Hughes and his perfectionism, Whiplash, that drumming teacher, music teacher obsessed with perfectionism.

[51:46] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[51:47] Laura Camien: Amadeus, songs like Perfect by Ed Sheeran, All Too Well by Taylor Swift, Try by Pink. So many more.

[51:55] Susan Blackwell: So just pouring your thoughts about your perfectionism into your creative work may be of use to you.

[52:01] Laura Camien: I love that. Practice sharing things about yourself or your work that you're creating that is not yet perfect.

[52:08] Susan Blackwell: Sounds like a sparkfile creativity share to me.

[52:11] Laura Camien: Am I right?

[52:12] Susan Blackwell: I mean, this is a practice that we do in the Sparks File. Intentionally, intentionally, we say we are putting forward unfinished work in progress.

[52:24] Laura Camien: And when you do that, it can feel terrifying, but you learn that you will survive. You're going to learn from it, and your work is going to be better as a result.

[52:33] Susan Blackwell: And it will get out into the world. It won't be trapped inside of you waiting.

[52:38] Laura Camien: Right.

[52:39] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[52:39] Laura Camien: Practice holding two seemingly opposite thoughts in your mind. This is good work for everything, for your creativity, but your whole life.

[52:48] Susan Blackwell: Our friend Gavin Creel, when he came to one of our courses recently, he talked about this and the word both.

[52:56] Laura Camien: Both things can be true.

[52:58] Susan Blackwell: We can hold space for both things.

[53:00] Laura Camien: One does not negate the other, and there's a whole lot of gray space in between.

[53:06] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[53:06] Laura Camien: Brene Brown says authenticity is a collection of choices that we have to make every day. It's about the choice to show up and be real, the choice to be honest, the choice to let our true selves be seen.

[53:23] Susan Blackwell: She also says connection is the energy that exists between people when they feel seen, heard, and valued, and when they can give and receive without judgment.

[53:37] Laura Camien: So another thing I'd make out of it is to cultivate a circle of friends or family or creative collaborators who you feel safe with, who truly see you and celebrate you for all the incredible things that you are.

[53:55] Susan Blackwell: Also sounds like the Sparks File.

[53:59] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File.

[54:01] Susan Blackwell: Join us.

[54:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[54:10] Susan Blackwell: It is. That space where they are seen and celebrated, and we feel it.

[54:16] Laura Camien: And it speaks to finding our meaningful life's purpose.

[54:20] Susan Blackwell: Our meaningful work is the spark file. And we find that meaning in seeing the transformation in our creative community.

[54:30] Laura Camien: Oh my god, Laura Instant Classic.

[54:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Suze, Suze. I'm telling you, it's so it's like again. I'm like, I cannot believe four seasons in, and it didn't occur to me.

[54:45] Laura Camien: We have never covered, like we touch it in all sorts of different things, but like never looked directly in its eyes.

[54:53] Susan Blackwell: Into the eyes of perfectionism.

[54:55] Laura Camien: And as you can see is sprinkled throughout this whole episode and this whole conversation is all these other topics that we have focused on sometimes without realizing that those behaviors are a part of perfectionism.

[55:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:10] Laura Camien: But I the more we do this, the more we learn, the more we do this. I'm just like all of it feels deeply interconnected.

[55:16] Susan Blackwell: All of it.

[55:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:20] Susan Blackwell: All of it.

[55:21] Laura Camien: Oh, Laura, that was so good. I also want to thank all of our clients because their courage to be brave and to be vulnerable. We learn from them truth every day.

[55:33] Susan Blackwell: We learn from them every class and every conversation we have. And I'm so inspired.

[55:41] Laura Camien: Yep.

[55:43] Laura Camien: Same. They swing out. They really are practicing all of the things that you just mentioned in all the different ways.

[55:51] Susan Blackwell: They are putting it into practice, and it is a glorious, glorious thing to see.

[55:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:57] Laura Camien: It is inspiring.

[55:58] Susan Blackwell: So thanks everybody.

[55:59] Laura Camien: Thank you, Sparks File.

[56:00] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Laura. That was a beautiful, beautiful spark.

[56:04] Laura Camien: Thanks, Suze.

[56:05] Susan Blackwell: And that's it. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people.

[56:10] Laura Camien: And as always, we hope this put another boomcha sparks in your file.

[56:14] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, you can email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[56:29] Laura Camien: We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[56:37] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast.

[56:43] Laura Camien: If you just want to take a moment, look down at your phone, beep up beep, give us a little five-star review. It really helps other listeners to find us.

[56:51] Susan Blackwell: Also, if you like this podcast, we do hope you'll share it with people that you love.

[56:55] Laura Camien: And if you didn't like it, it's okay.

[56:55] Susan Blackwell: It's okay.

[56:59] Laura Camien: It's okay.

[56:59] Susan Blackwell: This is progress, not perfection for us.

[57:01] Laura Camien: This is progress not perfection.

[57:03] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[57:03] Laura Camien: And also, we're not relying on your validation.

[57:06] Susan Blackwell: We're not for everyone.

[57:07] Laura Camien: And we look inside ourselves for how we feel about the podcast.

[57:11] Susan Blackwell: So it's all gonna work out great for all of us.

[57:14] Laura Camien: It's all good.

[57:14] Susan Blackwell: You were saying, Laura?

[57:16] Laura Camien: If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[57:25] Susan Blackwell: It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[57:31] Laura Camien: You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[57:36] Susan Blackwell: And speaking of Gavin Creel, sing it, Gavin.

[57:39] Laura Camien: Oh, sing it, Gab.

[57:40] Laura Camien: And Sophie Hearn.

[57:42] Laura Camien: I love it. When I bump into something that inspires me.

[57:48] Laura Camien: I dump it in the spark files.

[57:52] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[57:57] Laura Camien: I'll pump it in my spark files.

[58:02] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark files.

[58:07] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark fire.