This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: The Sparks File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Laura Camien: Please use your discretion.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark side.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark five will be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark size.

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up this spot.

[0:38] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't do it alone, honey.

[0:45] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:46] Laura Camien: And I'm Laura Camien.

[0:48] Susan Blackwell: If you are an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, know that you are so welcome here.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: Whether your creativity has been on pause during this time, or you've clung to it like a lifeline.

[1:01] Laura Camien: Either way, welcome.

[1:03] Susan Blackwell: If you're new around these parts, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:07] Laura Camien: Where do I get a spark file? What do I file in it?

[1:10] Susan Blackwell: These are such good questions, and we have answers for you.

[1:12] Laura Camien: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:18] Susan Blackwell: Listen to the sounds of our voices. We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:22] Laura Camien: If you're anything like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now.

[1:34] Susan Blackwell: But don't despair. We are here for you, and we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:43] Laura Camien: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: Or a witty romantic historical examination of 19th century England.

[1:56] Laura Camien: Or what camp?

[1:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, we had a— I forgot to prepare mine.

[2:00] Laura Camien: Or didn't you do this last time?

[2:02] Susan Blackwell: I forgot.

[2:04] Laura Camien: Or something that perfectly somethings and something something.

[2:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh, that sounds so something.

[2:13] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks.

[2:17] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:21] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might just have some shingling holiday fun.

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:32] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh, Susan, that's never happened before.

[2:38] Susan Blackwell: I was so proud of myself. I got my spark already.

[2:42] Laura Camien: So prepared.

[2:43] Susan Blackwell: I was like, I'm done early. I'm done early.

[2:48] Laura Camien: And I didn't even think to update my intros.

[2:52] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[2:52] Laura Camien: But who cares, you know what? No one noticed.

[2:55] Susan Blackwell: Not one person.

[2:59] Laura Camien: We're selling good times and deep feelings.

[3:02] Susan Blackwell: That's right. How are you doing?

[3:06] Laura Camien: Dude, we're in the midst of the holiday season.

[3:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm in the midst of the holiday season.

[3:11] Laura Camien: Um, I'm gonna keep this light, and so uh, but I'm not trying to make light of this.

[3:18] Susan Blackwell: I will just say that um for, you know how we talked a long time ago, like people, we're all in the same storm, we're not in the same boat, we're in the same storm, right?

[3:28] Laura Camien: So we've all had hardships through this, but in case anyone is out there who's like been working the entire time, and I know I'm grateful to have been working since March 16th, but this is kind of the first break-ish, like of this little holiday break.

[3:50] Susan Blackwell: And I don't know about anyone else, but I'm finding that I'm just—Suze, I'm crying like every two hours.

[3:56] Laura Camien: And I don't know if it's like I just sort of tapped into some wellspring of sadness that I just didn't have time.

[4:04] Susan Blackwell: You know, like I couldn't stop to have it until now.

[4:09] Laura Camien: Um, so I just want to say to any listeners, if that's you, if you've been working your ass off since March, and you find yourself now with a moment of time and you've filled it with sadness.

[4:24] Susan Blackwell: Um, I just want to say you're not alone. Welcome to the maybe I need to know that I'm not alone.

[4:29] Laura Camien: I'm not sure which, but um, you know what that reminds me of?

[4:34] Susan Blackwell: I remember reading um an interview with Parker Posey years ago where she talked about how she was working on it with her therapist about why was it when she did a movie, she felt like she was sort of surrounded, like it felt very familial.

[4:52] Laura Camien: And then when the movie was over, she was overtaken by this deep sadness.

[4:59] Susan Blackwell: And it just reminds me of all the times, Cam's, maybe you can relate to this, like you have that I have been, maybe you have been as well, doing shows, and you're like, you're just so yes, like just morning, noon, and night, working so hard.

[5:17] Laura Camien: You have something that you have your eyes on the process, you're making this thing, and then once the show is done, I have felt over and over in my life this feeling of all of this time and space opens up.

[5:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:32] Laura Camien: Pardon me, I just burped. And sorry, wasn't that touching?

[5:35] Susan Blackwell: And any unprocessed things that had sort of been back burnered just had time to mix my metaphors just to flow into that space.

[5:44] Laura Camien: And so I have to say, I know how hard you've been working. And I'm not surprised that with a little, just a tiny little bit of free time.

[5:56] Susan Blackwell: I filled it. I filled it right up.

[5:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[5:59] Susan Blackwell: I filled it with my tears. I filled it with my salty human tears.

[6:03] Laura Camien: It's been really interesting, though, I have to say, because it has been, while it's sadness and it's tears.

[6:10] Susan Blackwell: I've also at the same time, because we hold multitudes, I've also been able to be like, wow. So here's a well of sadness. I'm also feeling incredibly grateful and incredibly privileged and incredibly um, you know, thankful that so far, you know, surviving the pandemic.

[6:30] Laura Camien: And um, you know, so it's such an intense mix.

[6:35] Susan Blackwell: It's a kind of salad.

[6:37] Laura Camien: Yeah, you got your salad tossed in there.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh no, what kind of podcast is this?

[6:43] Laura Camien: It's a salad podcast.

[6:45] Susan Blackwell: Um, we have anything else about that, Cam?

[6:48] Laura Camien: I don't want to.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: No, I just want to say to anyone who's out there listening who's feeling that I'm with you.

[6:53] Laura Camien: Sweet little babies.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: Love our sweet little sparkling babies.

[6:57] Laura Camien: Well, how are you? What's how what's going on with you?

[7:00] Susan Blackwell: I am well, thank you. Always every day grateful to still be healthy during a pandemic, to be doing uh, you know, work from the safety of my home, all that sort of jazz.

[7:16] Laura Camien: So grateful there.

[7:17] Susan Blackwell: Um, I'll tell you what I'm excited about. Excited about.

[7:17] Laura Camien: Excited about.

[7:23] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited about the Sparks File 2021 New Year creativity kickoff, a three-day virtual retreat on January 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

[7:32] Laura Camien: We have been making magic behind the scenes, building something special, sending out gifts, little elves, like little tinkering elves.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I'm excited.

[7:46] Laura Camien: Or it sounds like we've got an amazing group of people that are coming together.

[7:50] Susan Blackwell: My God, Suze, these people, we have we have such an eclectic group of artists and global.

[7:58] Laura Camien: We, since it's virtual, now, yeah, we are all over Scotland and uh Canada and all over the United States.

[8:07] Susan Blackwell: So it's super super excited.

[8:09] Laura Camien: I'm, I'm, I just I can't wait to get all of these same these people in the same virtual room.

[8:14] Susan Blackwell: I know. I was packing up all the little the workshop presents that people should be receiving, and I keep like just checking.

[8:22] Laura Camien: Has anything— I don't— has anything arrived at your house?

[8:24] Susan Blackwell: Like nothing has arrived here yet. I think it's gonna start dropping.

[8:30] Laura Camien: And I'm excited for people to get their little gifties.

[8:33] Susan Blackwell: Now, technically speaking, people had to sign up by December 20th to get their goodies, but I don't know.

[8:40] Laura Camien: Somebody was saying listening to this podcast with the day it came out, and maybe I don't know, maybe you were like, I didn't exactly get what I wanted for the holidays.

[8:50] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna give myself something, or I'm gonna guilt somebody else into giving me this workshop.

[8:55] Laura Camien: Or if somebody was so inclined to sign up right away, we could do our best to try to get them gifties in time for the workshop.

[9:03] Susan Blackwell: But I guess at the very least, it would arrive after the workshop.

[9:06] Laura Camien: But those gifts are evergreen.

[9:07] Susan Blackwell: We can do our enjoy them outdoors.

[9:10] Laura Camien: We can do our level best.

[9:12] Susan Blackwell: But I so that's that's something I'm very excited about.

[9:16] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I just really love, you know, if you want to give yourself a gift, Nino.

[9:19] Susan Blackwell: Now the presents are opened and you're thinking about next year and yourself like on the right foot.

[9:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:28] Susan Blackwell: From the jump from day one.

[9:31] Laura Camien: I think it's a pretty powerful way to start the new year, but also really effing fun if I say so myself.

[9:40] Susan Blackwell: And I do, I do say so.

[9:42] Laura Camien: You do say so.

[9:43] Susan Blackwell: And you sing so.

[9:43] Laura Camien: I sing so myself.

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh, so uh here's a little update. We got a few updates.

[9:51] Laura Camien: So our friend Laura Coward, hi Laura Coward, Laura Coward will be at the workshop.

[9:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes.

[9:56] Laura Camien: Laura Coward, beautiful writer, beautiful, beautiful writer.

[9:59] Susan Blackwell: Beautiful person.

[10:00] Laura Camien: Um, we first were exposed to Laura when we read a mailbag letter that she sent to us about shadow threads.

[10:07] Susan Blackwell: And we the writing was so great.

[10:10] Laura Camien: And now we're happy to know Laura Coward.

[10:13] Susan Blackwell: But she shared with us that John Mulaney has been working as a staff writer for Seth Myers, which I thought was so amazing.

[10:24] Laura Camien: And when he talked about it, he said that it was because he knew himself to be a person who thrived when they had structure in their lives.

[10:34] Susan Blackwell: Very like very I love it when people have self-awareness around what works for them as a human being and as a creative.

[10:42] Laura Camien: And he seemed to be very clear, and his psychiatrist was like, why don't you get a job like that?

[10:46] Susan Blackwell: We have structure.

[10:47] Laura Camien: So he um had been working as a staff writer at Seth Myers.

[10:52] Susan Blackwell: And then we just learned that he checked himself into rehab to deal with his addictions.

[10:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'm glad he did. That is a person who has brought us so much joy, yeah, and so many sparks.

[11:04] Susan Blackwell: And I, on behalf of The Spark File, which I'm sure he'll never listen to, we send love through the universe to John Mulaney and anybody who's going through that.

[11:14] Laura Camien: We absolutely send that love.

[11:16] Susan Blackwell: We uh I mean, I'm just I'm really thankful because it sounds to me, and we only know what we read.

[11:24] Laura Camien: Come on, we don't have an inside track on him, but yeah, um, but it sounds to me that he's been very responsible and serious about his sobriety.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: And you know, when he relapsed, he knew that he needed to take action.

[11:44] Laura Camien: One of the things I love about John Mulaney is his candor around all everything, including things like his own addictions and the way that he takes that lived experience and he puts it into his work.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: And so I hope that he gets healthy and that he continues to do that with this experience that he's having now.

[12:06] Laura Camien: Yeah, we need more Mulaney in our lives.

[12:09] Susan Blackwell: Another update that people have several people sent to us is updates on the finder of the Forrest Fenn treasure, the armchair treasure hunt spark that you did.

[12:23] Laura Camien: Freaking loved it.

[12:24] Susan Blackwell: Right. Loved it.

[12:25] Laura Camien: So if you haven't listened to it, pause this up as— no, just kidding.

[12:29] Susan Blackwell: Um, did this episode that featured sparks about the Forrest Fenn treasure hunt, which was recently solved.

[12:36] Laura Camien: I think we're all up to date on that.

[12:37] Susan Blackwell: Ooh, spoilers if we're not.

[12:39] Laura Camien: And you can stop searching now.

[12:43] Susan Blackwell: It's been dead.

[12:45] Laura Camien: Come back in from the mountains.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: We did an update where we talked about how the finder was the finder found the treasure and it was verified by Forrest Fenn that the treasure had been found.

[13:00] Laura Camien: But Forrest Fenn and the finder agreed that the finder would remain anonymous and they would also keep the location where the treasure was found.

[13:09] Susan Blackwell: They would not reveal the location because it was very um, it's not a tourist destination.

[13:15] Laura Camien: It was special and significant to Forrest Fenn and became special and significant for the finder because they spent so much time on the ground searching for the treasure there.

[13:26] Susan Blackwell: And they agreed that they would not reveal the location because they didn't want it to get trampled by all the treasure seekers who were curious about it and wanted to visit it.

[13:35] Laura Camien: And they were like, instead of destroying it, we're going to keep it a secret.

[13:38] Susan Blackwell: And they still have kept it a secret.

[13:41] Laura Camien: But the identity of the finder of the Forrest Fenn treasure has been revealed.

[13:50] Susan Blackwell: But um, Jack is a 32-year-old Michigan native and a medical student.

[13:56] Laura Camien: And the reason why Jack had to basically out himself as the finder of this treasure is because there was litigation against Forrest Fenn and then Forrest Fenn's estate.

[14:09] Susan Blackwell: Uh, because some remember that Barbara, that real estate woman, I think she's from Chicago.

[14:15] Laura Camien: She claimed that somebody had hacked her, hacked into her computer and found her solution and beat her to the treasure before she could get there.

[14:23] Susan Blackwell: Which I have to say, come on, Barbara.

[14:23] Laura Camien: Come on.

[14:27] Susan Blackwell: But because when Forrest Fenn passed away, spoiler alert, that also happened.

[14:32] Laura Camien: When Forrest Fenn passed away, the lawsuit then named the heirs to Forrest Fenn's estate, including the treasure.

[14:42] Susan Blackwell: So, so I think that Jack Stewart knew that it was just a matter of days before his identity would be surfaced because of this lawsuit.

[14:51] Laura Camien: And so he had been in conversation with this uh writer and journalist from Outside Magazine uh by the name of Daniel Barbarese, and they had already been in communication.

[15:03] Susan Blackwell: It's actually super interesting.

[15:05] Laura Camien: There's a really, really interesting article on outsideonline.com.

[15:11] Susan Blackwell: If you want to read how this was interesting, how the journalist Daniel Barbarese was able to get into contact with Jack Stewart without knowing his identity.

[15:22] Laura Camien: Oh yes.

[15:24] Susan Blackwell: So actually, I'm gonna say the spark because I thought it was really clever.

[15:27] Laura Camien: If you remember, the finder of the Forest Ben Treasure posted a blog on medium.com.

[15:34] Susan Blackwell: It was anonymous, and there's there's not an easy way for you to get in touch with the writer of these anonymous posts on Medium.com.

[15:42] Laura Camien: But this writer, Daniel Barbarese, knew that you could highlight a passage from the article from the post, and you could send a message notifying the author that it required their attention because there were errors or something that needed correction.

[16:01] Susan Blackwell: And in this way, that Daniel used the limited characters that were available to send a message saying, I'm a writer from Outside Magazine.

[16:11] Laura Camien: I'd love, you know, you don't have to reveal your identity, but I'd love to be in touch.

[16:14] Susan Blackwell: And that's how he began a correspondence with this um anonymous person.

[16:19] Laura Camien: So smart.

[16:20] Susan Blackwell: So, so smartish.

[16:23] Laura Camien: So, anyway, um, they had already been in communication, but Daniel Barbarese, this writer from Outside Magazine, wasn't pressing uh the finder of the treasure to reveal their identity.

[16:33] Susan Blackwell: He was just doing research for a book he was writing about the Forest Ben treasure and about the phenomena around it and about the treasure seekers.

[16:42] Laura Camien: And um, and then because they had that relationship developed when litigation was on the horizon and Jack was about to be outed by the legal process.

[16:50] Susan Blackwell: He was like, I'm gonna tell you who I am.

[16:53] Laura Camien: He still will not say where that treasure was found to protect the land on which it was found.

[16:59] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[16:59] Laura Camien: Um, but there I did just want to share a little bit from the article because I thought this was so I just it just tickled my brain.

[17:08] Susan Blackwell: So I just wanted to share it.

[17:10] Laura Camien: If you haven't listened to that spark that I did about armchair treasure hunts, you know, you can listen to this and go back or never go back.

[17:18] Susan Blackwell: It's up to you.

[17:18] Laura Camien: Um, but I just wanted to read this passage.

[17:20] Susan Blackwell: This is uh Daniel Barbarese's writing in Outside Magazine.

[17:23] Laura Camien: Listening to Stuff talk about it, he seems to make it so attainable, so simple.

[17:28] Susan Blackwell: The key was really just understanding Forrest Fenn.

[17:31] Laura Camien: Stuff hunted solo, never discussed his search with others, stayed away from the blogs after his initial looks at them, and tried hard not to get caught up in any group think.

[17:42] Susan Blackwell: He did his utmost just to focus on Fenn's words and primary sources and understand those as best he could.

[17:48] Laura Camien: I don't want to ruin this treasure hunt by saying it was made for an English major, but it's based on a close read of the text, Stuff said.

[17:55] Susan Blackwell: I mean, that's what it is.

[17:57] Laura Camien: It's having the correct interpretation of a poem.

[18:00] Susan Blackwell: I understood him by reading his words and listening to him talk over and over and over and over again and seeking out anything I could get my hands on that told me who he was.

[18:11] Laura Camien: When asked to figuring out the puzzles required the use of anagrams or GPS coordinates or sophisticated codes of any sort, Stuff was clear in his response.

[18:20] Susan Blackwell: No, he says.

[18:21] Laura Camien: But I don't want to say that people are stupid for thinking those things were valid or that they were being irrational.

[18:27] Susan Blackwell: I think Forrest designed this to be fun.

[18:30] Laura Camien: And whatever people got out of it that gave them fun, I think to me is rational and they were doing it right in that way.

[18:37] Susan Blackwell: The solution, Stuff says, is tied far more to understanding Fenn's emotions and to a close examination of the poem itself than to puzzle solving skills.

[18:46] Laura Camien: Fenn simply didn't care about those kinds of things.

[18:50] Susan Blackwell: He was more interested in adventure, legacy, history, narrative.

[18:55] Laura Camien: I mean, he was coming to this not from the perspective of being a huge fan of puzzles or a puzzle master.

[19:02] Susan Blackwell: He was not a fan of armchair treasure hunts.

[19:04] Laura Camien: Hey, his point of reference, his spark, if you will, was pirates.

[19:10] Susan Blackwell: His purpose was not to create a great puzzle and show everyone how smart and slick he was.

[19:16] Laura Camien: His purpose was this weird idea to entomb himself and to create a historic legend.

[19:22] Susan Blackwell: None of that supports armchair solutions, and he was open about that.

[19:26] Laura Camien: I just thought that was so interesting.

[19:28] Susan Blackwell: That this Jack Stuff was able to key successfully key into what moved the man who was sparked to create this um Forrest Ben treasure hunt.

[19:41] Laura Camien: It makes so much sense to, you know, you need to understand the person who created it.

[19:47] Susan Blackwell: But I really love the respect that he's like showing all the other people by saying, like it makes sense that you tried these other things too.

[19:56] Laura Camien: Um all of that is part of the game.

[20:00] Susan Blackwell: And I thought it was interesting though, if you want to solve one of these to understand the artist to understand the mind of the artist that made it.

[20:08] Laura Camien: Yep.

[20:09] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[20:09] Laura Camien: Is is uh seems like it could be really key.

[20:13] Susan Blackwell: Anyway, those are some updates for update spark, spark, sparks can speaking of sparks.

[20:21] Laura Camien: You got one?

[20:21] Susan Blackwell: You got one.

[20:22] Laura Camien: I got one.

[20:23] Susan Blackwell: You got one.

[20:23] Laura Camien: I think you're going to first.

[20:25] Susan Blackwell: I was just checking, making sure you have one.

[20:27] Laura Camien: Oh, was that a test?

[20:29] Susan Blackwell: You got one?

[20:29] Laura Camien: Do you have yours?

[20:31] Susan Blackwell: What if I was like, you're up first, and then you were like, 'Do you have one?' And I was like, 'I fully didn't prepare a spar today.' But I'm here to listen to yours.

[20:40] Laura Camien: There could be a day when that happens.

[20:42] Susan Blackwell: There might be a day when that happens.

[20:45] Laura Camien: If I wasn't like, if I had been sick, like say I had appendicitis last week, just as an example, and I was well enough to show up and do this, but I hadn't had time or capacity to write the spark.

[20:57] Susan Blackwell: I think we should still do it.

[20:58] Laura Camien: I think you should give me a spark.

[20:59] Susan Blackwell: I would do that.

[20:59] Laura Camien: And then if you had appendicitis, I give you a spark.

[21:01] Susan Blackwell: That sounds great.

[21:03] Laura Camien: That's our plan.

[21:04] Susan Blackwell: Should appendicitis uh creep up on either one of us?

[21:08] Laura Camien: Which I hope it doesn't.

[21:10] Susan Blackwell: But now we have a plan if it does.

[21:12] Laura Camien: Lord willing it.

[21:13] Susan Blackwell: All right.

[21:14] Laura Camien: So without any further ado.

[21:17] Susan Blackwell: First, I'm up, Suze.

[21:19] Laura Camien: Um, I'm kind of excited about this one.

[21:23] Susan Blackwell: It's it's one that's you know, it's bigger, it's bigger than I could possibly cover in this.

[21:29] Laura Camien: So I'm gonna I'll I'm gonna give some highlights.

[21:32] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so here's the thing I came across a comic in The New Yorker recently, and the title was How Dating During a Pandemic is like being in a Jane Austen novel.

[21:45] Laura Camien: It was written by Amy Collier, and it really gave me a giggle.

[21:48] Susan Blackwell: I mean, such a nerdy giggle, but I I really liked it.

[21:52] Laura Camien: So here's a few highlights.

[21:54] Susan Blackwell: How dating during a pandemic is like being in a Jane Austen novel.

[21:58] Laura Camien: I'm here for it.

[21:59] Susan Blackwell: It's a long, drawn-out affair composed of public meetings.

[22:05] Laura Camien: The main characters lead quiet domestic lives.

[22:10] Susan Blackwell: You in regularly inquire about the health of each other's family members.

[22:16] Laura Camien: Includes many brisk walks outdoors.

[22:21] Susan Blackwell: You inform your friends who lead tranquil lives full of cooking and evenings at home of recent romantic developments through vividly written correspondence.

[22:32] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[22:33] Susan Blackwell: And you and your prospective future husband barely touch.

[22:37] Laura Camien: Those are just a few highlights, but I I got a giggle out of it because you know it's well done.

[22:43] Susan Blackwell: It's with and there's more to it.

[22:45] Laura Camien: So take a look at it in the New Yorker.

[22:47] Susan Blackwell: It's super fun.

[22:48] Laura Camien: She has a point.

[22:49] Susan Blackwell: But after I got done giggling at this, two things went through my mind.

[22:54] Laura Camien: One, I'm really thankful I'm not attempting to date during a pandemic because it sounds like it would suck.

[23:01] Susan Blackwell: Fuck that shit.

[23:03] Laura Camien: And number two, I fucking love Jane Austen.

[23:07] Susan Blackwell: I fucking love Jane Austen novels.

[23:09] Laura Camien: I love, love, love.

[23:11] Susan Blackwell: And that is what I want to talk about today.

[23:14] Laura Camien: I have given considerable thought to what exactly sparks me about Jane Austen novels.

[23:20] Susan Blackwell: And I'll say I'll widen that scope to, you know, to other writers as well.

[23:25] Laura Camien: I can't get enough of period pieces written about life in 19th century and 20th century England specifically.

[23:34] Susan Blackwell: I just freaking devour it as quickly as I can find it.

[23:38] Laura Camien: And frankly, I can't understand why the BBC can't just crank out more of it.

[23:44] Susan Blackwell: I mean, what are they doing?

[23:46] Laura Camien: I want that on the scale of like the Hallmark channel.

[23:50] Susan Blackwell: I I don't know why there isn't a channel that isn't playing these movies from dusk till dawn.

[23:56] Laura Camien: Does it what does it do for you?

[23:58] Susan Blackwell: What does it give to you?

[24:00] Laura Camien: Guess what?

[24:01] Susan Blackwell: I have broken it down.

[24:03] Laura Camien: I've narrowed it down to like the two.

[24:06] Susan Blackwell: I do.

[24:07] Laura Camien: I'll post those.

[24:08] Susan Blackwell: But I've broken it down to like the top four things just because you know I could talk on this for hours upon hours.

[24:15] Laura Camien: But I have to live it myself.

[24:16] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[24:17] Laura Camien: Okay.

[24:17] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[24:17] Laura Camien: So these are just four things.

[24:20] Susan Blackwell: Um, but before I launch into it, I feel like I should just say, in case there's any listeners who do not know of whom I speak when I say the name Jane Austen, well, seriously, put down this podcast and pick up one of her books.

[24:35] Laura Camien: Pick up a book stat.

[24:36] Susan Blackwell: Kim, but can I can I admit to you right now, I just want to have full disclosure, counselor.

[24:41] Laura Camien: Yes, I have enjoyed many a Jane Austen movie adaptation.

[24:46] Susan Blackwell: I have never read a single word of a Jane Austen book.

[24:51] Laura Camien: I think that's a fine confession to make.

[24:53] Susan Blackwell: I think that when I speak of these things, I'm speaking of the in book form and in movie form.

[25:01] Laura Camien: So I it's the movies that I can't stop like digesting and I can't get they just don't seem to make them fast enough.

[25:10] Susan Blackwell: You just can't get enough.

[25:11] Laura Camien: I just can't get enough.

[25:14] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so here's the thing.

[25:16] Laura Camien: So if you don't know Jane Austen, you need to know Jane Austen.

[25:20] Susan Blackwell: Um to know Jane Austen.

[25:22] Laura Camien: She wrote Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, Mansfield Park, Emma, and several others that were published after her death, Persuasion, Sandition, etc.

[25:33] Susan Blackwell: She lived from 1775 to 1817.

[25:40] Laura Camien: She was only 41 years old when she died, Suze.

[25:43] Susan Blackwell: Oh I did not know that.

[25:45] Laura Camien: And like most women of her time, all of her books were published anonymously because writing was not considered a suitable career for women.

[25:57] Susan Blackwell: No joke, Susan.

[25:58] Laura Camien: Her first novel, Sense and Sensibility, was published with the title, Sense and Sensibility, and Underneath It by a Lady.

[26:08] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[26:09] Laura Camien: By a Cammy.

[26:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[26:11] Laura Camien: I just want to say I'm amazed.

[26:14] Susan Blackwell: It's so amazing to me.

[26:15] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[26:16] Susan Blackwell: It's crazy to me that somebody who lived from 1775 to 1817, like that their the work lives on.

[26:23] Laura Camien: So kudos to the legacy.

[26:25] Susan Blackwell: But I I'm amazed when somebody gets that much creative work done in their lifetime.

[26:35] Laura Camien: And I'm further amazed when they get that much creative work done in their lifetime under a veil of secrecy.

[26:43] Susan Blackwell: No, holy totally shit.

[26:45] Laura Camien: Anonymous.

[26:46] Susan Blackwell: I can barely get shit done out loud and proud.

[26:50] Laura Camien: But that the weight of like having to do it.

[26:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[26:54] Laura Camien: Maybe she could be out to the people around her.

[26:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[26:57] Laura Camien: But still.

[26:58] Susan Blackwell: But her name was never gonna appear on it.

[27:00] Laura Camien: It was very unproper and unladylike to be doing like press for your latest book, no book tours, things like that.

[27:08] Susan Blackwell: Nope.

[27:09] Laura Camien: Was her stuff well read in her lifetime?

[27:11] Susan Blackwell: It was.

[27:11] Laura Camien: Like, did she know she was successful?

[27:14] Susan Blackwell: She did because she made money.

[27:16] Laura Camien: Um was limited in certain ways because of um the way they would publish female written books.

[27:25] Susan Blackwell: They would have um either a buyout or um some kind of arrangement where the publisher would put up the money to publish it, and then if it sold well enough, then after a certain point, the author would, you know, would get money.

[27:44] Laura Camien: Um so she did make she did make a good amount of money in her lifetime, but she didn't end up like her family had other financial troubles, and so she didn't end up like really high on the hog or anything, but she helped, she was able to help her family.

[27:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah.

[28:00] Laura Camien: Wow, but what an accomplishment.

[28:02] Susan Blackwell: That is huge.

[28:03] Laura Camien: And her, I just can't get over like the first novel being, quote, by a lady, and then all the other books were labeled by the writer of sense and sensibility.

[28:16] Susan Blackwell: So you never, so nowhere on any of her books in her lifetime was her name mentioned, which I just think is flipping amazing.

[28:26] Laura Camien: Makes my mind boggle.

[28:28] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[28:29] Laura Camien: Okay.

[28:29] Susan Blackwell: But here we go.

[28:30] Laura Camien: Okay.

[28:31] Susan Blackwell: My top four fascinations and sparks.

[28:35] Laura Camien: And I'm so nerdy because I'm like, I can't talk so much longer.

[28:39] Susan Blackwell: But okay.

[28:40] Laura Camien: This feels like such a good, this is a such a good spark for the holidays.

[28:45] Susan Blackwell: Like do you know what I mean?

[28:47] Laura Camien: Like it just has like, oh, I'm feeling it.

[28:49] Susan Blackwell: I'm here for it.

[28:50] Laura Camien: Okay.

[28:50] Susan Blackwell: Sorry.

[28:50] Laura Camien: Stop interrupting you.

[28:51] Susan Blackwell: Give me what the top four baby.

[28:53] Laura Camien: Number one top of the list, repressed sexual tension.

[28:59] Susan Blackwell: Is there anything better than repressed sexual tension?

[29:03] Laura Camien: I don't think so.

[29:04] Susan Blackwell: And when you can create an entire world where like the tiniest touch of a hand is electrifying and scandalous.

[29:16] Laura Camien: Oh my God, it's so thrilling.

[29:18] Susan Blackwell: And my most favorite thing in the world is like is when there's great sexual chemistry and that breath right before a kiss.

[29:30] Laura Camien: Like when you see two actors really do that right, it's so breathtaking.

[29:37] Susan Blackwell: And of course, in real life, if you're kissing the right person, it's literally intoxicating.

[29:43] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[29:45] Susan Blackwell: Friday Prejudice with Kieran Knightley.

[29:47] Laura Camien: Yes.

[29:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[29:49] Laura Camien: Is it Matthew McFadden?

[29:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God, there's them.

[29:52] Laura Camien: Literally, the next thing that I was about to say to you is that I know that you and I both love the version of Pride and Prejudice with Kira Knightly as Elizabeth Bennett and Matthew McFadden as Darcy.

[30:03] Susan Blackwell: So good.

[30:03] Laura Camien: And that that's a if you need a spark for a good holiday movie to watch.

[30:08] Susan Blackwell: Not even that it's like that holiday riff, but there's some ball scenes where they like they have big dances.

[30:14] Laura Camien: And family dynamics always reminds me of the holidays.

[30:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:18] Laura Camien: Yeah, that is true.

[30:19] Susan Blackwell: That is true.

[30:20] Laura Camien: I will I think I might have said this on the podcast.

[30:22] Susan Blackwell: I don't remember because real life and podcast life bleed together.

[30:26] Laura Camien: But the other night we were doing that, the dance that we do when we sit to watch television, and it's like, what do you want to watch?

[30:34] Susan Blackwell: We want to watch.

[30:35] Laura Camien: And there's that Venn diagram of things that we can both agree on.

[30:38] Susan Blackwell: And then there's things that it's like, I will indulge you as you watch the great British baking competition, and I will indulge you as you watch a James Bond movie.

[30:46] Laura Camien: But I just took a took a leap, took a risk, took a chance, and I put on the Kira Knightley Pride and Prejudice.

[30:53] Susan Blackwell: Have I talked about this on the podcast?

[30:55] Laura Camien: And Nathan, like it from the jump, the cinematography, the storytelling, the acting, all of it.

[31:05] Susan Blackwell: Nathan, my sweet baby Nathan, was like, this is great.

[31:10] Laura Camien: And I was like, it is great.

[31:12] Susan Blackwell: And it holds up.

[31:13] Laura Camien: That is now 15 years old.

[31:16] Susan Blackwell: It's 2005.

[31:18] Laura Camien: And of course, I watch it at least once a year.

[31:20] Susan Blackwell: I it's one of those like if it's on television and I'm scrolling, I cannot, I have to stop.

[31:20] Laura Camien: I have to stop.

[31:28] Susan Blackwell: I wish there were more, like when you talk about having just like an Austen channel, all Austen all the time.

[31:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[31:35] Susan Blackwell: Then in the evenings, after hours, it goes into like Austen after dark and it gets like a it's like more softcore.

[31:41] Laura Camien: A little softcore.

[31:42] Susan Blackwell: Um it's uh, but that I wish there were more movies like that.

[31:48] Laura Camien: Yeah, I mean, I think there's other, you know, there's like merchant ivory films as well that I would say fall into this category, but there's a little bit more lightness to Jane Austen.

[31:59] Susan Blackwell: Um yeah, there's not enough of them.

[32:02] Laura Camien: We need more.

[32:03] Susan Blackwell: So good.

[32:04] Laura Camien: So good.

[32:05] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes now, and I know I'll let you back here because we're only on number one.

[32:09] Laura Camien: But sometimes now when I watch movies and it's a bunch of white people talking, I'm like, that's a lot of fucking white people.

[32:15] Susan Blackwell: Well, and yeah, okay.

[32:17] Laura Camien: But that movie is so good.

[32:20] Susan Blackwell: It's so good that I'm like, I'm gonna give you a pass, Kira Knightley, Pride and Prejudice because you're such a fucking good movie.

[32:27] Laura Camien: Happy to say there's a new show on Netflix.

[32:31] Susan Blackwell: I think that is a is like um a modern, it's by Shonda Rhymes.

[32:36] Laura Camien: It's Shonda Rhymes, yeah.

[32:38] Susan Blackwell: And um, and it is I think the representation across the board is amazing, but it is set in a period piece in this time.

[32:48] Laura Camien: I'm trying to remember Bridgerton.

[32:50] Susan Blackwell: Does that sound right?

[32:52] Laura Camien: I'm I wanna can I look at it.

[32:54] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes, let's get that right.

[32:55] Laura Camien: Um I can't wait.

[32:57] Susan Blackwell: I think it starts on Christmas Day.

[33:00] Laura Camien: Oh my god, Shonda, right?

[33:02] Susan Blackwell: Bridgerton.

[33:04] Laura Camien: I I hope it's um oh, I just saw a headline that says Bridgerton is a horny Benjible delights.

[33:10] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great.

[33:11] Laura Camien: So Bridgerton might be the nighttime uh, you know, selection.

[33:16] Susan Blackwell: That's that's Austen after dark.

[33:18] Laura Camien: Yes, that's Austen after dark.

[33:19] Susan Blackwell: Because I do think like uh to your point, I I completely agree.

[33:23] Laura Camien: We need to see more representation, but Shonda may help us out here, and we can see dig it.

[33:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm super excited about that.

[33:30] Laura Camien: Right, but it starts on Christmas Act.

[33:33] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, Matthew McFadden.

[33:35] Laura Camien: Um, I'm obsessed with him, and now like I will watch anything that he's in, and like he's in succession right now, which is phenomenal in it.

[33:44] Susan Blackwell: Sure is he's phenomenal.

[33:46] Laura Camien: Oh my god, but the way he like barely touches her hand um to help her into the carriage that one time, and you can feel the spark.

[33:57] Susan Blackwell: I mean, that's beautiful direction by Joe Wright for sure.

[34:00] Laura Camien: That's all in the way he directed that moment.

[34:03] Susan Blackwell: But it's like it catches your breath, and all it is is like his hand touching hers for one second.

[34:10] Laura Camien: Ugh, fucking love it.

[34:12] Susan Blackwell: Also, I don't know about you, I'm not sure if we agree on this, but I also love the sense and sensibility version with Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet.

[34:21] Laura Camien: I love the simmering tension between Emma Thompson and Hugh Grant, and Alan fucking Rickman uh is so amazing.

[34:30] Susan Blackwell: That moment when Marion's Alan Rickman played.

[34:34] Laura Camien: Um Colonel, uh, what's his name?

[34:38] Susan Blackwell: He Colonel Mustard Colonel Mustard Conservatory.

[34:42] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, yes.

[34:43] Susan Blackwell: Um, he Colonel Brandon.

[34:45] Laura Camien: I don't think I know it very well.

[34:46] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I know it well enough to have an opinion about it, Camps.

[34:49] Laura Camien: Ugh Suze, is that gonna be my and the shots of the English countryside are so exquisite.

[35:01] Susan Blackwell: But I've gotten off track.

[35:03] Laura Camien: The the shot the cinematography isn't isn't even in my top four, but I should be sorry, sorry.

[35:09] Susan Blackwell: But so I'm talking now about the repressed sexual tension.

[35:15] Laura Camien: That's right.

[35:16] Susan Blackwell: So yeah.

[35:17] Laura Camien: Where were we?

[35:18] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I got myself worked up.

[35:20] Laura Camien: I can't remember.

[35:21] Susan Blackwell: Um listeners, if we haven't already mentioned the listener discretion is advised.

[35:26] Laura Camien: Listen, here's where I literally sound like a grandma.

[35:29] Susan Blackwell: So young'ins, please, please forgive me.

[35:34] Laura Camien: I I please know that I am completely in support of sexual revolutions and sexual freedoms, and I'm completely proud of how far we've come.

[35:43] Susan Blackwell: Sex positive baby.

[35:44] Laura Camien: In regards to sexual expression without shame.

[35:47] Susan Blackwell: I'm totally here for it.

[35:50] Laura Camien: However, indulge grandma for a minute.

[35:57] Susan Blackwell: So delicious about the delayed satisfaction that comes from wanting something so badly, something that you cannot have right away for whatever reason.

[36:13] Laura Camien: And that wanting simmers for such a long time before being able to be enjoyed.

[36:26] Susan Blackwell: And Jane Austen does it.

[36:29] Laura Camien: She's delivering the goods.

[36:31] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[36:32] Laura Camien: So number two.

[36:33] Susan Blackwell: Through time, delivering the goods.

[36:36] Laura Camien: Yes.

[36:36] Susan Blackwell: Getting your yayas worked out from 1775.

[36:41] Laura Camien: So another thing I live for is the intellectual insult.

[36:48] Susan Blackwell: And Jane Austen, she can do it where sometimes you're not even sure if it is an insult or not.

[36:57] Laura Camien: You have to, like, sometimes the person has been insulted and they're not even aware of it.

[37:02] Susan Blackwell: Um, sometimes it's just a scathing fucking burn, and she is a master of it.

[37:11] Laura Camien: She's a master.

[37:13] Susan Blackwell: Do you have any examples?

[37:14] Laura Camien: Sure, sure, sure.

[37:15] Susan Blackwell: So in Sense and Sensibility, um, Marian describes Colonel Brandon as just the kind of man who everybody speaks well of and no one cares about, whom all are delighted to see and no one remembers to talk to.

[37:32] Laura Camien: That burn hurts.

[37:33] Susan Blackwell: You got burned.

[37:34] Laura Camien: That hurts.

[37:35] Susan Blackwell: Um, in Pride and Prejudice, I have not the pleasure of understanding you, which really means you're not making any fucking sense.

[37:44] Laura Camien: But I but said so politely.

[37:48] Susan Blackwell: She's passive aggressive so poetic and passive aggressive.

[37:52] Laura Camien: Right.

[37:53] Susan Blackwell: She has there's a there's a million of them, but she's so I think I'm drawn to these types of insults because I feel such joy when a character who is confined by the appropriate behaviors of society finds a way to just slice a person to shreds while still remaining civil.

[38:17] Laura Camien: They're still getting in it, and I don't know.

[38:21] Susan Blackwell: This may be a stretch, but I tried to think like why why do I enjoy this so much?

[38:25] Laura Camien: And for me, I think there've been a lot of times in my life when my kindness has been interpreted as weakness, and eventually I'm pushed too far, and then I make it clear that I will not be tread upon.

[38:43] Susan Blackwell: And there have been times in my life when people have been like, oh, whoa, I didn't know you could be so, you know, whatever, fiery.

[38:51] Laura Camien: Yeah, fiery, um, so rude, be such a bitch, you know, any fill in the blank.

[38:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, and it really frustrates me because of course I can be.

[39:00] Laura Camien: I'm hold multitudes, but I really do prefer to resolve things in the kindest of ways if possible.

[39:07] Susan Blackwell: But then I find that some people just don't respect you until you indicate that you can match them at being a dick.

[39:14] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:15] Susan Blackwell: And then they're like, oh, wow, I didn't know you had that side.

[39:18] Laura Camien: And I always marvel at that, Suze, because I think, oh, okay, so you respect me now, but it really says more about you that you needed to push me that far, that you needed to see me be a bitch in order to respect me.

[39:34] Susan Blackwell: It says more about that person than it says about me.

[39:37] Laura Camien: And I think that's why it's so damn satisfying to read or watch these characters in Jane Austen's writing, like really pack a punch because her heroines are not the wealthiest or the most beautiful or the highest ranking, but they have their wit and they have their intellect and they can get away with expressing quite a bit without stepping outside of the bounds.

[40:01] Susan Blackwell: Don't you think it's also super satisfying?

[40:03] Laura Camien: Because we, as mere mortals, frequently move through the world and something will happen, somebody will say something or do something, and we'll be at a loss for how to respond in the moment.

[40:15] Susan Blackwell: And then an hour later or a week later or a year later, we might be like, oh, what I should have said was.

[40:23] Laura Camien: And these characters have the benefit of having a great, great ghostwriter, a K J and Austin.

[40:30] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[40:30] Laura Camien: Who is putting these great words in their mouths that they just have at their fingertips?

[40:35] Susan Blackwell: And so there's satisfaction in that too.

[40:37] Laura Camien: That's exactly it.

[40:39] Susan Blackwell: Because in these moments where I'm pushed, and I what I wish I could do is slice someone just enough to say, see, you're not gonna walk on me.

[40:50] Laura Camien: But also I'm still kind.

[40:58] Susan Blackwell: But also I'm still kind, and I can live with myself at the night, you know, at the end of the night because I I stayed within the boundaries of respectable conversation.

[41:10] Laura Camien: Yes.

[41:10] Susan Blackwell: And she always has it's exactly what you said, she always has the language right there on hand.

[41:16] Laura Camien: And it's just the right temperature and it's just the right dose.

[41:19] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yeah.

[41:20] Laura Camien: It's just totally okay.

[41:23] Susan Blackwell: So number three, I'm totally sparked by the history of how women have been treated.

[41:31] Laura Camien: Um it's unbelievable to me that we're really not that far from being considered our husband's possession.

[41:39] Susan Blackwell: And even though these movies are romanticized versions of life in the 1800s, and I'm tempted, I don't know about you, but when I watch them, I'm like, it's all so simple, and it's also, you know, but no, you really can't get around the message, the plight of women who could not earn their own wage, could not inherit any money, could not own land, and if they were privileged enough to be born into society, they had to follow incredibly strict rules and regulations in regard to their behavior and self-expression.

[42:15] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[42:16] Susan Blackwell: And to have to choose a husband without really spending any time alone with them, that just makes it fucking luck of the draw, you know.

[42:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:25] Susan Blackwell: The very fact that Jane Austen had to publish anonymously, and her brother had to basically sponsor her in order to get the publisher to agree.

[42:34] Laura Camien: Oh, did I say this?

[42:35] Susan Blackwell: Did I tell you that when she died at her funeral, she was praised for quote, extraordinary endowments of her mind, but not one mention of her writing, not one.

[42:50] Laura Camien: Wow.

[42:50] Susan Blackwell: At her funeral, at uh at her burial site.

[42:54] Laura Camien: Nope.

[42:54] Susan Blackwell: Because it still had to be kept a secret.

[42:58] Laura Camien: It just was not to be like it was like it was not proper.

[43:05] Susan Blackwell: Let's just take a second and thank our privilege that we don't have to live like that anymore.

[43:16] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[43:17] Susan Blackwell: There's other things, there are other walls that still need to come down.

[43:20] Laura Camien: Shockingly, still more work to do.

[43:23] Susan Blackwell: But yeah.

[43:24] Laura Camien: God.

[43:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[43:25] Laura Camien: Good God that you can't even talk about it at the graveside.

[43:29] Susan Blackwell: Um yeah, it's unbelievable that you couldn't say her and her accomplishments included these things.

[43:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[43:35] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[43:36] Laura Camien: So several of her novels address these injustices outright.

[43:42] Susan Blackwell: Um, and you know, her characters are very vocal about it.

[43:47] Laura Camien: But somehow the characters do turn out all right in the end because they they do find suitable husbands and all, you know.

[43:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I think about how freaking hard life must have been at that time for women.

[44:01] Laura Camien: Literally everything was hard.

[44:04] Susan Blackwell: Camps, this is such a good example, though, of if you have to live through it, you might as well get to make something out of it.

[44:10] Laura Camien: It is such a good example of she was living under this uh sort of societal set of mores, and she pathetic straight into her work.

[44:22] Susan Blackwell: Not that it could be acknowledged out loud in you know, polite society, but it's amazing that she was still able to add her voice to the um probably like the criticism.

[44:35] Laura Camien: Yeah, against all odds, against all of the barriers like we're gonna be able to do that. So many of us, I think, feel like we've got a bunch of barriers between us and our creativity. And she had, you know, additional barriers, just one that it was not acceptable. And yeah, but everything that women did at that time was hard when just thinking about like preparing a meal requires two hours time. A day, two hours are you? Yeah, more than oh my god. Um, just yeah, everything is waiting, waiting, waiting. You couldn't take any action as a woman. And I think that must have been excruciating. Everything had rules, rules about when you could visit a person, how you could visit, under what conditions would it be appropriate. And any misstep could ruin them all together.

[45:34] Susan Blackwell: Which leads me to number four. In a related note, I am and have for a long time been super sparked by the idea of shame and the role that it plays in society. This is kind of a topic I'm obsessed with. So just go with me here for a second.

[45:57] Laura Camien: I'm with you.

[45:58] Susan Blackwell: In the 1800s, there was a very strict adherence to proper society rules if you were a member of the society. And there was somewhat of a caste system at the top were those with titles and landowners. And if you were a member of the upper class, you had to follow what was deemed as proper behavior. And if you didn't, you were literally outcast. If you were outcast, anyone who wanted to remain accepted in society was required to banish you. Like literally could not be seen talking to you. It was brutal. But then again, the things that you would be outcast for are pretty bad. Lying, being discovered as a liar or a cheat, that would do it. So you had to keep your word, you had to be a person of honor. And the shaming would moderate the collective behavior. And even though this might sound harsh, sociologists talk about shame as an essential component of any functioning society.

[47:14] It's plays the part of behavior modification, the idea that someone or a certain entity is going to be the judge of you at some point, either now or later. And it's meant to deter you from behaving badly. In Christianity, of course, specifically, it's meant to keep you from committing one of the cardinal sins. I think I'm really fascinated by this topic because we as a society right now are moving in two really interesting directions. On the one hand, we're moving more in the direction of no shame. No shame about our bodies, our sexuality, our personal choices regarding career and parenthood or religion, etc. And generally I'm on board with that. On the other hand, we're also moving in the direction of complete shame when it comes to certain things.

And the idea of cancel culture, it's the very raw and absolute admonishment by shame. And we can do it in a much faster and a much wider scale than we could do it before due to social media. But in that way, we're not so different from the 1800s when a man who jilted a woman at the altar could lose his job, his title, his friends, and his place in society. The same can happen now to a man who is accused of sexually harassing a woman at work, for example.

[48:49] So I don't have all the answers on this, but I like to dig my hands into this topic because I think it's fascinating. I know men who really started to examine their own behavior after the Me Too movement. And that reflection is not a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. I don't think we should all live in fear of mistakes we've made in the past. Um, but I do think being compelled for some self-reflection is essential. I think shame can be an incredible tool in society to regulate behavior as long as we can agree upon and be clear about where the line is. For example, sexual assault, rape, racism, human rights. I'm so on board with taking a hard line about people feeling shame about any of those behaviors. But then there's politics or the idea that people are shamed simply for having a different opinion or a different viewpoint about things. And I think it can be really scary to live in a world where shame or cancellation is threatened, but it's unclear what the rules are.

[50:14] Do you know what I mean? Like the key to shame as a motivator, I think is having a collective agreement of our values as a society. And unfortunately, we're living in a time period where we don't have agreement on what the values are. And I think it leads to anxiety about it.

[50:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So, like in the past, it's sort of like you've got the Ten Commandments. They're pretty fucking clear. They're carved into a tablet. But now literally sometimes things can happen where something that was unacceptable to neutral to tolerated something, a statement or something to say. Last week, like the thinking on it may have evolved and you may get canceled for it this week. And so it's, it's that's that is the nature though, I feel like, of I don't know, this is a half-baked thought, but things are evolving and changing, and I do think that change is good.

[51:15] Laura Camien: I fucking hate cancel culture so much, unless it's like you're a monster. If you're Harvey Weinstein, like cancel away, but I just feel like it doesn't make space for what you're talking about, which is ambiguity around things, and it also doesn't make space for people to like know better, learn, evolve, do better, grow. It's just sort of like, no, you're done, you're finished. And I'm just like, there are times when I I'm like, are they really finished?

[51:51] Susan Blackwell: I think I agree. And I think that, um, again, if we could agree as a society that, um, certain, you know, acts of racism, we can agree are beyond the pale, and you deserve to be shamed slash canceled if that is how you're going to behave. Um, but we're literally living in a time where some of those things get defended. Do you know what I mean? Where we have groups of people who are like, yeah, we can agree on that 100%. And then we have groups of people who are like, um, no, that's, you know, uh, they shouldn't get canceled for that. So I think it, it it's leading to such a tumultuous time because we're not aligned on our values.

[52:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:49] Susan Blackwell: And I don't know that we are going to get to a place where we're aligned on our values either. And that bums me out. But I am sparked by the idea of shame as a useful tool. And it's, it's weird saying that because I'm not for personal shame, but I am for personal reflection. So can we get to where we like can learn and improve our behaviors without feeling unnecessary shame?

[53:21] Laura Camien: Right.

[53:21] Susan Blackwell: And I also think like I'm not for shaming people. I think that's I don't I don't know that that's uh healthy or productive, but I know that in my work, in the things that I make, that shame is also is often a really good like if I'm looking back over my life and I'm sort of like maybe looking for potential sparks that I could make stuff out of from my own lived experience. Sometimes if there's uh the visceral feeling of shame attached to something, I'm like, there's something in there that may have some creative juice. So there's also that's another application.

[54:02] Laura Camien: Yeah, for sure.

[54:03] Susan Blackwell: So all of these sparks are completely lit up by Jane Austen and her fellow writers in the 1800s. In fact, I learned a few things to expand my own horizons. There is a book called Not Just Jane by Shelley DeWise. And it's about these seven women besides Jane Austen who were writing and publishing novels in the 1800s. I'm super interested in that. And I just decided Persephone books, which I can't be more delighted about. I ordered five books to start with.

[54:38] Laura Camien: What? Tell me more.

[54:39] Susan Blackwell: Persephone Books is an independent publisher in London that reprints works mostly by women writers in the late 19 and 20th centuries. Also a few males, but mostly women. And the books are there, they are all consistently they're like all in this gray cover. They're titled, of course, but they're also numbered. And there's only 135 of them. And the end paper, when you open it up, the end paper on the inside of each one is different. And they're just these like works of art. And I cannot wait to dig into these stories. Not all of them are life in the Victorian era, but some of them are.

[55:42] Laura Camien: Like we so many of them, we would never know their names.

[55:46] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it, Sue? Well, many an adaptation has been made of Jane Austen's work, and I'm all for more of it. So please keep those coming. I think the Hallmark Channel is capitalizing on the repressed sexual tension thing and all of the holiday movies. So that's happening. I'll take it until we can have this Jane Austen channel. Personally, I'm I'm tempted to do something that my friends Bryn and Nancy have done, which is this is so nerdy. I love them. I love this idea so much, but they have gone to do these things where they experience life in Victorian times at these like living history adventures. Um they did one that wasn't Jane Austen related, but it was totally like period costumes, afternoon teas, card games, and it culminated in a ball. You know, it just sounds delightful.

[56:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:40] Susan Blackwell: And I think they even booked a specifically Jane Austen one this year, which must have gotten canceled. And Bryn and Nancy, if you're listening, I've been remiss about asking you about it, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna find out. But really, I would love for someone to create something that explores the role of shame in our society, the good and the bad of it. We're in such an interesting moment in history right now regarding shame, where I think the younger generation is really leading the way and helping us all release the shame that we've associated with certain things for decades or even centuries, like shame around sex and our bodies and our beliefs. And it's time to let go of that. But I'd love to see something that explores like in what way do we need shame in order to inspire self-reflection and personal growth or to inspire better behavior for those who want to be part of a collective society. I just think it's a hot spark that needs exploring. I wonder if it's has been explored, is being explored as we speak.

[57:46] Laura Camien: It could be, and if so, I want to know about it.

[57:51] Susan Blackwell: So there's many people who can sum up the genius of Jane Austen much better than I can. Writer James Collins says, I find that reading Jane Austen helps me clarify ethical choices, helps me figure out a way to live with integrity in the corrupt world, even helps me adopt the proper tone and manner in dealing with others. Reading Austen, I sometimes feel as if my morals are a wobbly figurine that her hand reaches out and steadies. Which is a neat idea. And which, uh, writer Amy Bloom says, Jane Austen is for me the best writer for anyone who believes in love more than romance, who cares more for the private than the public. She understands that men and women have to grow up in order to deserve and achieve great love, that some suffering is necessary, and that people who mistake the desirable object for the one necessary and essential love will get what they deserve. Oh, Jane Austen, to quote you back to you. If I loved you less, I might be able to talk about it more. And that's my spark.

[59:01] Laura Camien: Yay! I'm gonna watch that movie.

[59:04] Susan Blackwell: So many movies.

[59:06] Laura Camien: Good spark.

[59:07] Susan Blackwell: And I those books sound cool.

[59:09] Laura Camien: Oh my god, I cannot wait to show you.

[59:12] Susan Blackwell: I can't wait to show you. Coming in high fresh sparks, fresh sparks.

[59:19] Susan Blackwell: Welcome back, gentle sparkler. Here we are. You know, chaos. I was knee deep into a spark this week that was something more, let's say, contemplative, something a little, and I was like, and completely useful, completely would be useful to us and to the listeners. And then I was like, oh F this S, this year has been hard, it's the holidays, let's party already. And I was like, let's do something that feels less like it would be of use and service and let's just like, let's rock out. So um then I remembered that tucked deep into my spark file I have been saving this spark for about a year and a half, waiting for it to time out, maybe like with the holidays, the most wonderful time of the year, some say.

And so I was like, do that, do that, Susan. So my spark this week is toys, toys, Cammy, and my spark is toys, toys, toys. Oh my gosh, it's toys! Oh my gosh, okay, so many questions as well, maybe I'll have answers, but this is one of those sparks that shoots in so many different directions that there's a lot of ground I can promise you we will not be covering. I will say, as writing teachers and as creativity coaches, we frequently give our clients prompts to spark their creativity, and one of the prompts that I have observed to be very powerful is the word toys. Like if you ask a person, in fact everybody, unless you're driving, close your eyes. If you're walking or moving something heavy, don't close your eyes, but if you can close your eyes and if I ask you, Camille and you sparklers, what your favorite childhood toy was or the best toy you ever received as a kid, or the toy you always wanted but you never got, it is like instant creative time travel.

Everybody, you can open your eyes. So for so many people who haven't blocked out their childhood, even relatively modest toys that were very beloved or are very specific in their memory, they can be a powerful creative spark. So when you ask people to share about their childhood toys, it is like putting them in a time machine and bringing the past into the present moment in a really evocative way. Camps, do you remember one of your favorite toys as a kid or one that you wanted but you didn't get? What you got for me?

[1:01:59] Laura Camien: Um, I love playing with people. You know, those um Fisher Price people. Like, and also Weeble, Weeble Wobbles, but they don't fall down.

[1:02:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[1:02:10] Laura Camien: So though I mix them together. The Weebles lived in the people neighborhood, and all of them got along great. So integration. I like it.

[1:02:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, people. Oh, yeah. And when you think about them and you talk about them and you share about them, does it give you a feeling?

[1:02:27] Laura Camien: Yes, yes. I mean, we had basically we somehow got a hand-me-down like house, I think a people house and a people car.

[1:02:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:38] Laura Camien: And then beyond that, we had to use like we used little blocks and um albums to put together a bigger house for the people.

[1:02:50] Susan Blackwell: So you would take like the record album cases and make your own, like an A-frame.

[1:02:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:02:54] Susan Blackwell: Nice. Or stack them up. Like in boxes, you know, so make our own little furniture. I think toys are super evocative. I had a few that are very near and dear to my heart, but there is one that was incredibly potent for me. It was a doll that I loved as a child. I was obsessed with this doll. I got it for Christmas, my first grade year in school. And it was called a Draw-a-Face Doll. And I'll just describe it to you. I think I might have talked about it on the pod. No, I don't think I have talked about it on the podcast, but I've talked about it. Um, I have talked about it publicly. It was a soft-bodied doll. It was made out of primary colored fabric, so like red and blue, and it had a flat pink plastic face, and you could draw on that pink plastic and it would make this sort of like bright drawing of wherever your finger stroked.

So you could draw the eyes, the nose in bright pink colors. And then when you squeezed the tummy of the doll, it erased the face and you could draw a new face. And I loved it so much. I'm gonna Google it too.

[1:04:27] Laura Camien: You won't find it.

[1:04:27] Susan Blackwell: It was extremely obscure. So did you um draw different expressions so that the doll would be feeling different things?

[1:04:37] Laura Camien: That's right. You could draw anything, and as an artistic child, I really enjoyed that. And I felt like it was not like any other doll I had ever seen. It felt very special. And I took it after the holiday break. I went back to Catholic school, first grade. I had a very, very, very mean principal, Sister Adriana. And I took my doll in for show and tell. And I showed the doll. And she was so delighted that she, I remember she came and she like put her arms around me and then let me show it to other classes. And so this doll seemed to have magical properties that made our fucking nightmare nun principal kind for a moment. So I was obsessed with this doll. Loved this, loved this doll. So the last time I remember seeing the doll, I was in college and I remember seeing it on a top of a box.

It was upstairs at this house that I grew up in that my sister now lives in. And then I never saw it again. The doll like vanished. And I thought about this doll all the time. And I lamented its loss. And I had such fond associations with this doll. So I wrote about it on, we used to do a blog for Title of Show. Um, and I wrote about it on the blog like in 2007 or so. And I will be damned if someone didn't find that doll and not the doll that I had, but they found a copy of the doll. They gave it back to me.

[1:06:22] Laura Camien: No, yes, it was like this piece of unfinished business.

[1:06:28] Susan Blackwell: It was completed in my mind. So Chrissy Fullerton reunited me with that beloved doll. Thank you, Chrissy.

[1:06:34] Laura Camien: Chrissy, that is amazing.

[1:06:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it was amazing. It was amazing. And I still have it. And you know what I think I'm gonna do? I think I'm going to, I'm having shelves put in behind my desk, and you know, we live in a Zoom world, so now everybody can see if you're reporting teaching. I think I'm gonna put that little doll right behind me so you all have a visual.

[1:06:52] Laura Camien: What is, did the doll have a name? Did you say?

[1:06:55] Susan Blackwell: Well, the doll, I think I called it the little red writing hood doll because it looked like it had on a little red outfit and sort of this peaked thing like the top of a hood, but not writing hood, writing W-R-I-T-I-N-G. But I don't know. I thought I had gotten that from the packaging, but I know what the packaging looks like, and I don't think that's what it was called. In any event, that was, I guess, my name.

[1:06:55] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[1:07:24] Susan Blackwell: So as I've been preparing for the spark, I've been talking to people about their, you know, toys growing up. And Nathan told me that he, when he was little, growing up in Nevada, they were living in and their parents were working in a casino and gambling culture. And so when he was about eight or nine, the kids in his neighborhood came up with a way for them to trade their toys that they had grown bored of. So these little third graders would play toy poker. And when Nathan, when I was talking to Nathan about toys, he goes, did you ever play toy poker? And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[1:07:24] Laura Camien: Oh my.

[1:08:02] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. So all the boys in the neighborhood would bring all their toys that they had didn't they didn't play with much anymore, or they'd grown bored of the toys. They would put them in the pot and they would play poker for them.

[1:08:02] Laura Camien: That's amazing.

[1:08:21] Susan Blackwell: Isn't that crazy? So a couple of the kids' parents were dealers, and Nathan said those kids could be sharky at cards. But he said he never forget he won this stuffed Odie doll. I don't know if you remember Odie from the Garfield comic, but he loved this doll. He said it was in pristine condition, it wasn't slobbered on or anything, but he lost his beloved Garfield in ToyPo.

[1:08:46] Laura Camien: Oh, what a trade.

[1:08:48] Susan Blackwell: What a trade, right? You win some, you lose some. So a while back, I was doing some internet searching to try to find the name of a toy that our family had had and loved when we were little. And I was checking the googs, and I checked with my brother, who's one year older than me. And he, I frequently have to go to him, and he helps me remember arcane bullshit from our childhood. So it was a toy made by Mattel called The Thing Maker. Cams, did you ever play with The Thing Maker?

[1:09:21] Laura Camien: I don't think so.

[1:09:23] Susan Blackwell: Okay. It came with what was essentially it was a casting machine with a little hot plate, and it had these metal molds for the different things you could make. So I think we had the creepy crawler set, which included metal molds that had the shapes of insects and spiders and other creepy crawlies pressed into them. The Thing Maker came with four small bottles of different colored plastigu that you could pour into the molds and then the Thing Maker, that little hot plate, you would place the metal molds into the Thing Maker, and that hot plate would vulcanize the rubber and leave it in solid form. So you could essentially make your own little rubber toys, spiders and flowers and toy soldiers, and you had so you had the toy, and then you could make other toys with the toy.

[1:10:01] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:10:16] Susan Blackwell: Now they also had a version that was called Incredible Edibles, which had similar, is any of this ringing a bell?

[1:10:16] Laura Camien: A couple of Incredible Edibles does.

[1:10:26] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I had it, but I knew what you saw the commercial for it on Saturday morning. So um it had similar molds, but instead of plastigoop, it came with something called gobbledygook, which was edible. And you could form it in these molds into the shape of worms or flowers or insects, and instead of the Thing Maker, the hot plate was called the super gooper.

[1:10:35] Laura Camien: Come on.

[1:10:52] Susan Blackwell: Come on. That's awesome. The flavors of gobbledygook included licorice, mint, butterscotch, cherry, root beer, cinnamon, tootie fruity, banana, and raspberry. But call it what you will, Mattel. It all tasted like shit across the board.

[1:11:11] Laura Camien: What was it?

[1:11:13] Susan Blackwell: It was terrible. It's all just like wax.

[1:11:13] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[1:11:17] Laura Camien: And on the packaging, I wish it was wax. I wish it tasted as good as wax. On the packaging, it was like sugarless. Like that was one of the selling points. It was sugarless. Listen, it tasted terrible, but we put that shit into our mouths and we ate it. And if I'm honest with you, because this is the kind of kid I was, I put the rubber things that we made it with the um the thing maker. I wanted I wanted to chew on all of that stuff. And I'm so surprised that we didn't OD or get poisoned. It's a little like the black spiders and stuff that you made.

[1:11:51] Susan Blackwell: I just wanted to like, I just wanted to like chew on it. But um, but it's so funny because this is this really I'm honing in. I haven't even gotten, I'm honing in on what the initial spark was. The potential danger did not end there. The thing that is so nutty to me about the potential danger of chewing and eating this bullshit. That wasn't, that was just the beginning of the danger. The thing that's so nutty to me about the Thing Maker was the hot plate. It was an open hot plate on our bedroom floor. Uh, Canyon, it heated up to about 400 degrees. And again, I'm just amazed we never burned the fucking house down.

[1:12:02] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[1:12:35] Susan Blackwell: So I wanted to remember more about this toy because I could practically taste how shitty that candy was. So I continued to Google and I came across this article that really does contain the spark for the spark. It was an article on good housekeeping.com called 20 most dangerous toys of all time. It was written by Carolyn Picard, and of course, there have always been toys that are dangerous, like slingshots and pea shooters and trampolines. BB guns. We'll shoot your eye out.

[1:13:09] Laura Camien: That's right, girl, just in time for the holidays.

[1:13:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, these are known to be dangerous trampolines, like it's really hard to get homeowner's insurance if you have a trampoline at your house because so many people get injured. But um, I'm telling you, there's that's not where the list ends. And some of these things that I'm about to share with you could, these are sparks that could be transformed into, oh, I don't know, the plot points in a murder mystery. So like, yeah, in a, oh my god.

[1:13:12] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:13:41] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. I mean, like Chucky. Come on.

[1:13:43] Laura Camien: It's a dimensional.

[1:13:44] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, yes. Yeah. Talk about what has been made of it. Like toys, there, like I said, this spark branches out in so many different directions. So I'm not even getting into like what's her Annabelle and Chucky and all like the nightmare, like horror aspects. This is a little bit of real life danger and horror for you, but here's a few just for fun for the holidays.

[1:14:09] Laura Camien: So aqua dots. So aqua dots came out in 2007, and you would take these small, they look like little plastic beads, and you arrange them in a design, and you spritz them with water, and the design would fuse together, which sounds totally fun. If you're like a creative kid like me, it sounds like totally fun. Here's the problem. This toy was released, and the coating on the aqua dots contained the compound GHB, also known as the date rape drug, when ingested. So three children went into comas after swallowing these little things that look like little pieces of candy. Yes, and 4.2 million of these aqua dots kits were recalled, right? What were they thinking?

[1:15:01] Susan Blackwell: What were they thinking indeed? Other fun, weird fun question mark. I'll say it this way: other fascinating dangerous toys. Atomic laboratory kids produced in 1950 in 1951, the Gilbert U 238 Atomic Energy Lab, coming to you from the inventor of the erector set, actually contained four types of uranium ore.

[1:15:31] Laura Camien: Stop.

[1:15:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:15:32] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:15:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes. So uh actual, like atomic matter. There was a little leaflet enclosed in the kit. When you needed to purchase more uranium, you could write to the AC Gilbert Company in New Haven, Connecticut, and specify what you needed, and they let you know how much it would cost and how much postage would be. Who thought this was a good idea?

[1:15:58] Laura Camien: The 1950s thought this was a good idea.

[1:16:01] Susan Blackwell: Wow. Let's talk about the danger of magnets. Lots of toys had these small, powerful magnets that were part of the toy or were the toy itself that kids would eat, and then the magnets would do their magnet thing inside the kid, and that could block or perforate their intestinal tract and require surgery. So there was one particular toy called, and this toy is a real kick. It's called Barbie and Tanner. Barbie and Tanner was released in 2007, and it's sort of a dog walker Barbie. And from the pictures I looked like looked at, you could see it came with a Barbie doll and her dog Tanner and what looked like a bowl of magnetic kibble and a toy pooper scooper to clean up the kibble after Tanner passes passed it. So Tanner, the dog would eat the kibble, and then it would come out of Tanner on the other side. And then there's a little trash can in the kit so Barbie could scoop and throw away the bag of bag.

[1:17:10] Laura Camien: Okay, so the magnetic kibble poop. But the magnet inside the scooper accessory could come loose and toddlers could ingest it or aspirate it. And I checked the recall on that one. Good news, Cammy Ann no fatalities.

[1:17:24] Laura Camien: Oh, good, good, good.

[1:17:26] Susan Blackwell: Another, if as if you need another one, clackers or curbangers. Does that ring about with you? This was two acrylic balls tied together with a cord.

[1:17:37] Laura Camien: Yeah, right.

[1:17:38] Susan Blackwell: And you're meant to bang them together and they clack.

[1:17:41] Laura Camien: We had those, yeah.

[1:17:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure you did. They were marketed as being shatterproof, but apparently they would often crack into tiny shards that would fly into your face. You know, Candy, for kids.

[1:17:52] Laura Camien: Oh God.

[1:17:53] Susan Blackwell: I am amazed that we did not die. Another one, this is very well known, very well documented. Lawn darts, also known as jarts.

[1:18:03] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, yes.

[1:18:05] Susan Blackwell: I think we might have had those too. If you're not familiar with the lawn dart or the jart, it's like a large dart with a weighted tip that you threw and you tried to get them to land inside their target, which was a plastic hoop. So the consumer product safety commission banned these lawn darts, aka darts, for the first time before reaching a deal with the manufacturers to avoid selling them as toys altogether. But even with the ban and the and and the deal with the manufacturers to stop selling them, 6,000 kids went to the hospital in the 70s and the 80s with related injuries, including three fatalities. They were banned for good in 1988, and they urged consumers to destroy any remaining games. But apparently there's this community of people that are like, no way, no day suckers, and they they continue to cherish and play with their lawn darts.

[1:19:04] Laura Camien: But here's the crazy thing. In this article on Mashable by a person named Peter Alan Clark, I learned that lawn darts were actually inspired by spoke, if you will, by an ancient Greek and Roman war weapon called a plumbata.

[1:19:22] Laura Camien: What?

[1:19:22] Susan Blackwell: Satoy. That's that's what this article says. Peter Alan Clark writes, thought to have originated around 500 BCE, plumbata were, number one, tactical weapons of war. And number two, basically the same thing as lawn darts. Weighted spikes thrown from a distance with the intention of landing somewhere soft. They were even thrown in the same way. Needless to say, the ancient Romans weren't aiming for a plastic circle.

[1:19:52] Laura Camien: No, they were not.

[1:19:53] Susan Blackwell: I have to take Peter Alan Clark's word. I am not a journalist and I did not double check this source, but it's sort of like if these indeed were based on an ancient tactical weapon of war, it's insane to me that they made a toy out of them.

[1:20:09] Laura Camien: It's crazy.

[1:20:11] Susan Blackwell: It's crazy. Nuts. Speaking of weapons, let's talk about the Austin Magic Pistol. In an article on PC Mag.com, writer Eric Griffiths describes this toy gun released in the 50s by Austin Manufacturing. With a look fresh out of Flash Gordon, it could shoot a ping-pong ball a long, long way. The only issue might be the so-called magic crystals that caused the concussive force driving the ball were simply calcium carbide, which, when mixed with any water, even saliva, will expand after it turns to acetylene gas, then explode. If you buy an Austin magic pistol now, say on eBay, in many states, it's technically considered buying an actual firearm.

[1:20:58] Laura Camien: Cammy, I have seen a video of this thing firing. It is intense as hell. It does look like something out of Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers. You unscrew, um, basically, you know where the the like the um what do they call it back in the back where the you pull the hammer back of a gun, you unscrew a little chamber back there. The magic crystals, quote unquote, are in there. You spit into it. You just like like spit or put a few drops of water, close the back, and then you like give it a little shake and you pull it, and it's like a gun going on. It's crazy.

[1:21:34] Susan Blackwell: It's crazy. And kids were like spitting into this crazy, crazy. Like they knew that element when they sold it, then actually instructed kids to spit on it. I think maybe they were like, just put a few drops of water. I didn't see the instructions, but but the guy in the video who's demonstrating it, just like unscrews the chamber in the back with the magic crystals, and he just spits into it, screws the cap back on, gives a little shake, and bang like you cannot believe there's kick off of it, like a real firearm. It's crazy.

[1:22:10] Susan Blackwell: So we arrive at the initial spark that I have carried around for a year and a half. This was the toy that sparked this whole spark. It was called the Little Lady Oven. It was made by the Metalware Corporation out of Mills, it was somewhere in Wisconsin in the 20s. So this was manufactured in the 20s. This is a play oven. It's beautiful. It's enameled. You can still buy them on eBay and collect them. People collect them. It is a kid-sized electric oven that reached temperatures of 600 degrees.

[1:22:19] Laura Camien: Why?

[1:22:19] Susan Blackwell: The little lady oven gets hotter than my actual oven in my kitchen gets. Why do they need it to go to 600 degrees? 600 degrees sitting in a kid's bedroom. What the fuck? Kids' brains are made to get distracted and wander away from a 600 degree oven. What happens when you put a dolly in a 600 degree oven? What happens when you put like you try to put your little brother's hand in a 600 degree oven? How many burns, Camille? How many fires? Unbelievable. But enough about toys that are trying to kill you. Like I said, this spark is so fertile. It shoots in so many different directions.

[1:23:30] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:23:33] Susan Blackwell: Just like the those clackers that I was just talking about. It just splinters into a million pieces. But in researching this story, I watched this really, really beautiful short documentary on the New Yorker website called Eddie's World. Directed by Lynn Goldfarb. This documentary focuses on a man named Eddie Goldfarb, who is documentarian Lynn's father. This man, Eddie Goldfarb, is now 99. And Eddie is, not was, is an independent toy inventor who created such awesomeness as the Yakity Yak chattering teeth. Does that can you get a visual on that?

[1:24:15] Laura Camien: Sort of like, yeah.

[1:24:16] Susan Blackwell: So those teeth, plastic teeth, bright white plastic teeth set into red gums. You wind them up and they go. So invented in 1947, his spark of inspiration for the wind up chattering teeth was a magazine ad that Eddie saw for something called a tooth garage, which was a little container where you could store your false teeth at night, like on your bedstand. In an article on collectorsweekly.com, Eddie said that in his head, he saw a pair of dentures chomping and sputtering down the road like a car and then parking on their own into their tooth garage. So he was at his dentist. He asked for the dentist for a pair of old teeth. He'd made a mold and cast some teeth and plastic, and it was a big hit right from the start. And this novelty toy still has legs. It shows up in pop culture all the time.

[1:25:11] Laura Camien: It shows up all the time.

[1:25:12] Susan Blackwell: So in this doc, Eddie, who has invented more than 800 toys, he says that he wishes he could say more about the creative process, but it's so much of what he's done for so long that he doesn't even think about it. And when it comes to toys and games, anything and everything can provide him the spark of an idea. He said that he, when he first gets an idea about something, he's very lucky because he can visualize it and he can visualize how to make it step by step. So he gets the spark of the idea, and then he can see in his mind's eye how he can make it step by step, which I have to say is a real superpower. I do not possess. But but kudos to you, Eddie, and anybody else who has that. He said that he believes that when you do creative work, you stimulate your brain, and that keeps your body healthy. This is coming from a 99-year-old man. So I'm listening to his sparks.

[1:26:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:26:14] Susan Blackwell: Um, little little side spark from Eddie. In his late 90s, Eddie began writing 100 word stories. He's written his first 100 100 word stories, and now he's into working on his second 100 100 word stories. And he still attends a writing group in his retirement village. Now, this is a person who has creative ideas all the time, but I observed that he makes stuff on his own. He makes stuff with engineers and mold makers and all kinds of support people. But he also attended this writing group and seemed to relish in the creation with the support of others, which is something that I think we always really believe in. But but also just 100 word stories, I think is such a great spark. And I actually called my dad with that spark, and I was like, this is something that would be a very satisfying creative act during the course of a single day to write a 100 word spoke.

[1:27:19] Laura Camien: I agree.

[1:27:20] Susan Blackwell: I agree. I just wrote it down myself. I'm like, oh, that sounds good. They show they show him with his notebook open, uh, not notebook, but just like the you can hear the story in the background.

[1:27:34] Laura Camien: Yes i can love POTUS as a guest star on the spark pile here we go one more that's a good point.

[1:27:41] Susan Blackwell: So they showed him with a three ring binder open and he's turning the pages and a 100 word story is just like a slim little paragraph and I feel like it could be anything from just sort of like a scrap of an idea to like a beginning middle end kind of a story or a reflection on a day and I was like this is a good spark so yeah there's a spark free sparks not free sparks over here make it thank you for the spark so as again as I was preparing for the spark Nathan and I were talking about toys and we were laughing about the first toy they talk about in Laura Ingalls Wilder's first book Little House in the Big Woods cams do you remember the first appearance of the first toy in that book give me a hint what was it?

[1:28:28] Laura Camien: I think I might have talked about it on on the pod. It's an inflated pig's bladder from when Paw does butchering time he saves the pig's bladder and blows it up into sort of a white balloon tied with a string. And Laura and Mary it's like maybe like the only balloon they've ever had and they just bat it back and forth in the air with their hands and it sounds like they have a freaking blast with it.

[1:28:56] Susan Blackwell: And so I found this article on the website quintessentialantiquedolls.com, and in the article, a doll collector and a writer named Jennifer Stewart wrote a beautiful essay about all the toys in all of the Little House books. She also writes about all the toys and dolls that she herself, that Jennifer collects. So this is from her essay, and this is quoted from Little House in the Big Woods. "When cold weather comes, the girls play in the attic where large yellow pumpkins make perfect tables and chairs. Mary has a rag doll named Netty, but Laura's doll, Susan, is just a corn cob wrapped in a handkerchief." I remember reading that when I read Little House in the Big Woods, and I was so taken with the thought that she gets a doll later, and I'll talk about that.

But that Laura's doll that she named Susan was just a little dried-up corn cob wrapped in a handkerchief. But she loved it, and she treasured it, and she carried it around like as her little baby doll. And I just—so let me just get this straight. Laura's doll, she named Susan, and it was a little straw, a little corn cob. Well, clearly, I need to make my own little Susan out of a corn cob and carry you around in my pocket, I think, for when you can't be with me in person. And people like Laura's gun around the end. I love the image of that. I just thought that was so sweet that her treasure doll was just something that she had made and kind of improvised. And Jennifer Stewart goes on to talk about all the toys that they play with in those books.

Some were improvised, some were homemade, some were store-bought. So on the homemade front, this is the passage from Little House in the Big Woods when Laura finally gets like a real doll. "Laura was happiest of all. Laura had a rag doll. She was a beautiful doll. She had a face of white cloth with black button eyes. A black pencil had made her eyebrows, and her cheeks and her mouth were red with the ink made from poke berries. Her hair was black yarn that had been knit and raveled so that it was curly. She had little red flannel stockings and little black cloth gaiters for shoes, and her dress was pretty pink and blue calico. She was so beautiful that Laura could not say a word. She just held her tight and forgot everything else.

She loved her red mittens and she loved her candy, but she loved her doll best of all. She named her Charlotte." And if I remember correctly, she gets that doll at Christmas. That is her Christmas present. Oh sweet. Just love that. Wonder what happened to Susan the corn dog. We upgraded over here. We got to do that. I don't think we hear about—I don't think we heard about Susan much after that. Um then we have—Jennifer shares with us one of the God's POTUS is really going to tell. Jennifer shares some of the improvised toys. "When Paul began building the wonderful house of pine boards the next spring, Laura and Mary played with the curly wood shavings. They made necklaces and earrings, and Laura hung them in her hair to make the golden curls she longed to have." Wood shavings both. Wood shaving. I love an improvised toy. I love an improvised toy. Did you do any improvised toys when you were?

[1:32:27] Laura Camien: Oh yeah. I mean, for the people like, um, so my dad would bring home little scraps of wood from the wood shop. I mean, definitely just like Pa. Um, and we would be like, ooh, this could be the couch, and this could be a little bookshelf, and this could be—we made all of our stuff.

[1:32:47] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:32:48] Laura Camien: And your house made out of record album cards.

[1:32:51] Susan Blackwell: That is correct. We would do all of it.

[1:32:53] Laura Camien: Oh my God, I love it. You know, Hunter Bell always talks about how he would take the armrest cover off of the sofa.

[1:33:04] Susan Blackwell: And he would put it on his hair like a wig.

[1:33:06] Laura Camien: He would just put it on his head. And he would be like Guinevere and Camelot. And there's something about improvised toys that I love. And I think that it is the spark for those improv games where, like on What's My Lines, they have an object, whether it's like it's a hula hoop or it's a boa or it's a book or whatever. And you take it and you make something else out of it. That's a version of adult play that I think is best. I mean, in terms of like engaging your brain and your creative forces.

[1:33:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'd love—all I'm so nostalgic. This is so joyful. This walk down memory lane and just thinking about kids and how much like I want for them to, you know, have just enough to spark their imagination and then have to get resources and then run with it.

[1:34:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:34:01] Susan Blackwell: I think a lot of toys and play now really just like gives it to them.

[1:34:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:34:07] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean? Like it sort of does it all.

[1:34:11] Laura Camien: Uh, we're gonna get to more of that in just a second. But I wanted to share—this is a passage from On the Banks of Plum Creek, and this is about store-bought toys, right? And if we're talking store-bought toys, we're talking Nelly Olson. So this is at a party at the Olsen house. "Nellie walked among them, saying, 'You can look at my doll.' The doll had a China head with smooth red cheeks and red mouth. Her eyes were black, and her china hair was black and waved. Her wee hands were china and her feet were tiny China feet in black China shoes. Oh, said Laura. Oh, what a beautiful doll. Oh, Nelly, what is her name? She's nothing but an old doll, Nelly said. I don't care about this doll. You wait till you see my wax doll." She threw the China doll in a drawer and she took out a long box.

[1:35:08] Laura Camien: All the girls leaned around her to look. There lay a doll that seemed to be alive. Real golden hair lay in soft curls on her pillow. Her lips were parted, showing two tiny white teeth. Her eyes were closed. The doll was sleeping there in the box. Nellie lifted her up and her eyes opened wide. They were big blue eyes. She seemed to laugh. Her arms stretched out and she said, Mama. She was dressed in blue silk. Her petticoats were real petticoats trimmed with ruffles and lace, and her panties were real little panties that would come off on her feet were real little blue leather slippers.

[1:35:54] Susan Blackwell: I'm telling you, I'm telling you. First of all, Nelly loves those ringlets. Having things doesn't make you appreciate things, Nelly Olson.

[1:36:08] Laura Camien: That's right. But it really does, just like reading that. I was like, the very idea of toys can be time machines for creatives, I think.

[1:36:17] Susan Blackwell: Yes. In her essay, Jennifer Stewart says, Laura's little house books reveal four generations of children, toys, and playtime in the 19th century. Her stories evidence the progression of toys through the decades of that century and the advancement of playthings from poor and migrant families through those of more well-to-do families and the development of playtime interests as children in that century grew older. Then, as now, play had a purpose. Play was a means to learn how to be an adult in the world into which one was born and raised. Sometimes a means to break out of the role intended for one by adults. And as always, play was for fun.

[1:37:02] Laura Camien: And I just thought that was I don't know. I thought Jennifer's observations of that were really interesting. How it does just through those books, just through that sort of those recollections, you learn what it was like to be a kid who was growing and developing and changing, and either playing with like girls, I'm using air quotes, girl toys to be like, this is preparing me as I cradle my corn cob doll, Susan. It's preparing me to be a mom. You know what I mean? Or sometimes you could be a kid who's like, I'm not, I'm a girl and I'm not interested in that baby doll.

[1:37:44] Susan Blackwell: That's good.

[1:37:46] Laura Camien: Sort of pushing against it. Um I thought that here's a little meandering that my fingers did as well. I found an article from 2004 from TheGuardian.com by Sophie Ari. And Sophie told the story of archaeologists finding the remains of a 4,000-year-old stone doll on the Mediterranean island of Pantalieri, which is between Sicily and Tunisia.

[1:38:11] Susan Blackwell: I want to see that doll.

[1:38:14] Laura Camien: So, Camps, this is insane. They found a little doll head. It was about three centimeters, crudely carved with eyes, nose, and mouth, wavy hair, and they it was found with a miniature set of terracotta cooking pots.

[1:38:31] Susan Blackwell: What?

[1:38:32] Laura Camien: Oh these little toys were found on the site of this bronze age village at Mercia in these two huts. And these little toys were found in the children's living corners.

[1:38:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[1:38:49] Laura Camien: And they believe that the saucepans at that little doll head were toys belonging to the girls who lived in this village around 4,000 years ago. Which is to say we have been playing with toys for a long time.

[1:39:04] ⚠ About 5 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[1:43:46] Laura Camien: Like, what are your toys now? What is play between? Oh my gosh, Suze. Um, wow, I don't feel like I do enough of it. I'll say that. Um, but I feel like I've been going on these long walks and um like stopping to photograph like things I've never seen, and it's a lot of nature at the moment, which I'm loving. Um, but I wouldn't mind it like when Wes comes along with me, it feels more playful. You know, when I'm by myself, it feels a little more contemplated. Make up songs together. Yeah, things like that. Yeah. Wes. I think Wes is Wes is a lot of my playtime. Um, yeah, because we do exactly that, like just little songs and you know, little things. Um Wes is your toy now. Wes is a one great big toy, a life-size west, yes, he is, but I'm also like, as you know, setting up a new little creative space.

So for for a good portion of the quarantine, I was in the dining room, and so I am setting up more play space in here, uh, intentionally. So I'm hoping that uh I too will have more play when I create a little space for it.

[1:45:06] Susan Blackwell: Literally, let's make a commitment to ourselves. See if you're willing to enter into this pact. That when we set up, we're both in the midst of setting up our spaces. Um, that we both in somewhere in our space, here's a little Easter egg for the listeners that we always have a toy. We always have a toy in view.

[1:45:28] Laura Camien: Yes, I can commit to my to remind us of the importance of toys and play and all this stuff.

[1:45:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love that. So okay. Yeah, there's a spark for you. I also wrote on a post-it note that's stuck on my computer now. I wrote play, and I'll get to that in just a second. So yeah, in conclusion, sort of. I think that toys and play are so sparky, and it's important in the present day, but it's also historic, it's prehistoric. And in the words of Dr. Stuart Brown, it even takes you outside of time. Like it is unbound by time. So in order to find a stopping point and a spark that could be endless, I would like to return to Jennifer Stewart's essay on toys in the little house world. She says, I count myself as quite fortunate to be able to surround myself with antique household items, textiles, toys, and dolls from the 19th and early 20th centuries.

In this way, I am able to be part of the history of these dolls and antiques as they predate me and will live beyond me. While they bring the past with them, they are now and can never be a long time ago. Jennifer concludes her essay with a passage from Little House in the Big Woods. Pa's strong, sweet voice was softly singing. When the fiddle had stopped singing, Laura called out softly. What are days of all langsyme, Pa? They are the days of a long time ago, Laura, Pa said. Go to sleep now. But Laura lay awake a little while, listening to Pa's fiddle playing and to the lonely sound of the wind in the big woods.

[1:47:16] Susan Blackwell: She looked at Pa sitting on the bench by the hearth, the firelight gleaming on his brown hair and beard and glistening on the honey brown fiddle.

[1:47:24] Susan Blackwell: She looked at Ma gently rocking and knitting.

[1:47:27] Susan Blackwell: She thought to herself, this is now.

[1:47:33] Susan Blackwell: She was glad that the cozy house and Pa and Ma and the fire light and the music were now.

[1:47:40] Susan Blackwell: They could not be forgotten, she thought, because now is now.

[1:47:45] Susan Blackwell: It can never be a long time ago.

[1:47:50] Susan Blackwell: So I want to thank Jennifer Stewart and Laura Engels Wilder and Rose Wilder, who probably contributed that music writing.

[1:47:58] Susan Blackwell: There's something about the timelessness of toys that I think is so potently creative and sparkish.

[1:48:13] Susan Blackwell: I mean, this spark is so vast that so many things have been made and so many things will be made.

[1:48:20] Susan Blackwell: If you haven't watched it, Jingle Jangle on Netflix.

[1:48:24] Susan Blackwell: David Talbert, who wrote and directed it, is a human spark.

[1:48:28] Susan Blackwell: He makes books and movies and musicals and films.

[1:48:30] Susan Blackwell: He's so unstoppable.

[1:48:31] Susan Blackwell: He'd be an amazing guest on the podcast.

[1:48:34] Susan Blackwell: But um, you know, you did a social post about it.

[1:48:37] Susan Blackwell: Like Jingle Jangle is all.

[1:48:39] Susan Blackwell: It's all about toys and the magic of toys and creativity.

[1:48:44] Susan Blackwell: And there's the Toy Story movies.

[1:48:48] Susan Blackwell: There are podcasts which are remarkable.

[1:48:51] Susan Blackwell: There's podcasts like Toy Tomb, which I is described as two old guys talking about the toys of their youth.

[1:48:57] Susan Blackwell: I spent an afternoon listening to them going through the major Christmas catalogs, like the Sears catalog, the JC Penny catalog from the 50s, the 60s and the 70s.

[1:49:07] Susan Blackwell: And I just listened to them while they looked at these catalogs and talked about the toys that they had wanted and sometimes got to play with as kids.

[1:49:16] Susan Blackwell: Um, toys that they maybe still be collecting.

[1:49:19] Susan Blackwell: Another spark is you could make a toy.

[1:49:22] Susan Blackwell: You could make a toy for yourself or for someone else.

[1:49:26] Susan Blackwell: You could invent a toy like Eddie Goldfarb.

[1:49:31] Susan Blackwell: This is what I'm gonna take away.

[1:49:33] Susan Blackwell: In the new year, I want to carve out more time for play that is not tied to assignment or work.

[1:49:39] Susan Blackwell: I'm not sure how I'm gonna do that, but I'm craving this.

[1:49:42] Susan Blackwell: And as I thought about that, I thought I want to bring more of a sense of play into our work.

[1:49:50] Susan Blackwell: So whether it's like building curriculum or updating our website or even deciding how we structure episodes and roll them out, I was like, what if we approach it and structure it and infuse that with as much play as possible in the way we talk about things and the way that we make things?

[1:50:06] Susan Blackwell: I was just like, how much of it can just be I know that sometimes you have to like get serious and like do work.

[1:50:13] Susan Blackwell: And I'm not trying to like undercut our work, but I was just like, what if it's like we know that we're not curing cancer or saving France when we do this stuff?

[1:50:23] Susan Blackwell: What if it was like the website was our to play?

[1:50:26] Laura Camien: And it can feel like the classway.

[1:50:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:50:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:50:29] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[1:50:30] Susan Blackwell: What if it what if so what would this feel like if it were easy?

[1:50:33] Susan Blackwell: It would feel like playing.

[1:50:34] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:50:35] Susan Blackwell: What would this feel like if it were easy?

[1:50:38] Susan Blackwell: It would feel like play.

[1:50:39] Susan Blackwell: So that is another thing that I'm taking.

[1:50:42] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:50:43] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:50:45] Laura Camien: You're so right.

[1:50:46] Susan Blackwell: There's so many tentacles from it's so loaded with sparks. I mean, this could be its own podcast series, like the sparks around toys and play. It's crazy. And then, like we were talking about, like you get into toy horror. Not to mention like toy collectibles, like toy nostalgia, toy. It's it's crazy. I keep thinking of like, you know, a plot point, even that was like a fire in someone's house that was created by the what was it? Little Miss, the little miss oven. Oh my god. That's the little lady oven that you see early in act one. Um, and then you know, the the fire that brings it all down. A lingering close-up shot. We take the seat out on a lingering close-up shot of the little lady oven.

Yeah, and then we know, and then we know. Yeah, it just this so it's so amazing. And also when you like think about what you can do with stories regarding your own precious toy and what it meant to you, your siblings' favorite toys and what you did to them, and you know, like there's just so much. It's so loaded. It's so specific and it's so loaded, and it really does. There are some people that they've sort of blocked out large swaths of their childhood in order, usually to protect themselves. But for a lot of us, those are very rich seedlings, very rich sparklings that can be um horse.

[1:52:20] Laura Camien: Well, I feel like I am someone who blocked out a lot of my childhood for a variety of reasons. And this is a way in, like asking yourselves these questions that you that you began your spark with, um, really digging in, it started to like peel back some of the film that that you know keeps me from seeing my childhood. It like gets clearer and clearer as I hone in on the toys. It's really I'm remembering, I'm remembering right now, we used to um make a cabin out of Lincoln logs. Did you know? Oh, yeah. We would make a cabin out of Lincoln Logs. We would take a um like a duckling or a gosling out of the backyard, and we would put a in if we would put a gosling or a duckling into the cabin, put the roof on quickly, and then the gosling would burst through it like the Kool-Aid man coming through the wall.

And if we had, if we had had a little movie camera, I think we would have filmed it and made it as if the duckling was a little like like a dun dun dun dun, kind of like a Godzilla and Mothra type situation.

[1:53:31] Susan Blackwell: Um play babies toys babies. Oh my god, let me just say one more. Uh like you said, um, what were what did you call them? Improvised toys. Improvised. One day, um, so my mom had a pair of leather gloves that had like rabbit fur or probably fake rabbit fur on the inside. Yeah, fancy. I know. And I I took them to school one day, and when I took them off, I discovered that if you take them off sort of and leave them inside out, they look like a little tiny ball of fur. So I um I took this glove off where no one could see me, and then kept this little ball of fur in my cradled in my hand, and and like treated it like it was this tiny little baby rabbit. And of my sure that you know the people behind me could see me like place it in my desk, and then I would like check on it periodically, and and then soon there just started to be like a buzz, buzz, buzz like there's a baby rabbit in her desk.

There's a rabbit in her desk. And then eventually, of course, at recess, I had to be like, just kidding, you guys, it's a glove. It's just a glove. Acting. Acting. But that for a while we all loved the little baby rabbit that was in my desk. Oh, just a glove.

[1:54:56] Laura Camien: I still have the little baby mouse finger puppet that I adored that I got at a county. It wasn't a county fair, it was a local fair, like at the strawberry at the Harvest Festival or something. And um that thing still, I saw the toy demonstrator demonstrating it, and it just like in the same way that you're describing petting the little imaginary live rabbit. I loved that little mouse. I'm getting all of these toys out. Some of them I still have, and they will be on display coming to us here, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I can't wait. Oh my God. So I mean, and I think that's it. Oh my goodness. This episode of the Sparks File was made on Muncie Lenape and Seminole Land. And as always, we hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

Listen, if there's a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share it, email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:56:08] Susan Blackwell: Cams, I just had a thought. When you were saying that thing about how there are large parts of your childhood that you feel like you've obscured from yourself and toys are a way in, I think that there's something to that. I think there's a like a healthy, constructive, gentle entry point to revisit some of those times. And then it makes it possible potentially for people to access and make and create from the other parts of those times that were maybe more challenging. So I think that I just I just wanted to say that before I forgot. Where was I? Oh yes, follow us on social at the Sparks File. And be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. Listen, not only does it really help other listeners find us, we have discussed and we're I think we're gonna start doing a thing where if you want to write a few words about your feelings about the Sparkfile podcast, I think we're gonna start opening up episodes by sharing some of the things that you have written.

We're gonna read your reviews back to you. So share some fresh reviews, people. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope during this holiday season you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, I have nothing more to say to you.

[1:57:31] Laura Camien: We're two hours in and you're still listening. So if something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You know you gotta take it and make it. Bye.

[1:57:57] Susan Blackwell: Bye. Happy holidays. We're gonna bump into something that inspires me. I dump it in the spark five. Scarf could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark five. Scarf. I jump into the spark five. Spark. Let's open up the spark five.