This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark vibes to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark style.

[0:23] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:26] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:53] Laura Camien: If you are an original member of the Sparks File community, welcome back, Sparkler. You've been listening to this band from the beginning.

[1:01] Susan Blackwell: If you are joining us for the first time, welcome, friend. Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:10] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:19] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:29] Laura Camien: But don't despair. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:02] Susan Blackwell: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly ever use in this lifetime. So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:14] Laura Camien: Without further ado, friends, let's open up the Sparks File.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Laura Camien.

[2:22] Laura Camien: Hi, Susie Q. I'm excited for Sparks. How are you doing?

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: I'm so well. I'm relaxed and excited, or as I like to say, relaxited.

[2:32] Laura Camien: Relaxed. And it feels so good. I love a spark recording day.

[2:40] Susan Blackwell: I love it. It's one of my great joys in life.

[2:43] Laura Camien: Yeah. Very, very fun. I'm excited as well. I think I told you before, I'm also sparked like extra spark today, extra charged because I've been working on this screenplay.

[2:54] Susan Blackwell: And today, literally today, a little epiphany came to me about a sequence of events that fit that I was like, this is the puzzle piece I have been looking for.

[3:09] Laura Camien: Clicking into place. It was like it had fallen on the floor and got tucked under the rug, and I could not find it. And today I found it. And I'm so so so so excited.

[3:22] Susan Blackwell: It's that, you know, that thing that you have said before of just like this is the feeling that we chase. This is the thing. This is the why we do this.

[3:31] Laura Camien: I love that feeling where I actually had this feeling yesterday, you and me, and I think our client, Mona Patel, were having a conversation.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:44] Laura Camien: And we were sort of building something in our minds, talking about the possibility of something and sort of talking it into existence. And I got that feeling where I was like, oh, I love this feeling. This is the feeling I chase.

[3:59] Susan Blackwell: Yes. It's big. Congratulations on finding that little puzzle piece.

[4:06] Laura Camien: Thank you. I haven't written it yet, but I have it in my mind. And I wrote it down as bullet points. I'm like, this is you know, the assignment.

[4:15] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[4:16] Laura Camien: So, Suze, I'm also excited to share a spark with you today. Are you ready?

[4:22] Susan Blackwell: I couldn't be more ready. Reporting for duty, sir.

[4:27] Laura Camien: All right. Well, listen, we are about, if you can believe it, a full three years since the world shut down before a pandemic.

[4:37] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[4:38] Laura Camien: We're just about at the three-year mark. And when this airs, it might be right around there.

[4:45] Susan Blackwell: Wow. Happy anniversary.

[4:46] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. Happy anniversary. And suffice to say that we learned and we've changed and we've evolved over that time.

[4:58] Susan Blackwell: Maybe in some ways we regressed during that time. We, as in the big sense, if we all of the people.

[5:05] Laura Camien: But on the other side of it now, I think like we're still processing all the ways we as individuals may have changed, and also how we've changed as a society, a country, a world.

[5:17] Susan Blackwell: Every day it feels like, I don't know, you and I at least are always talking, noticing like how the rules are changing. Do we do this anymore? Do we do this now? What is happening?

[5:31] Laura Camien: And sometimes it feels like we're catching up. We're wondering when is everyone else going to catch up? It's just been a very interesting time.

[5:40] Susan Blackwell: I have one of those that I have been pondering.

[5:43] Laura Camien: Oh, oh, I can't wait to hear that.

[5:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's I don't know that it's necessarily tied to the pandemic, but it has emerged as I have gone back out into the world. I have intersected with it, and it wasn't in place before the pandemic.

[5:56] Laura Camien: Oh, interesting.

[5:57] Susan Blackwell: But I don't know if it has anything to do with your spark.

[6:00] Laura Camien: Okay, we'll see if it comes up.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: And if it doesn't, remember that and we'll say it at the end.

[6:04] Laura Camien: Okay. I'll note it.

[6:05] Susan Blackwell: Yep. All right. Well, as if to help us all get on the same page. Last week, or when this airs, it will have been a few weeks ago. New York magazine's The Cut came out with new rules on how to text, tip, ghost, host, and generally exist in polite society today.

[6:28] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: Your face. I wish I could have captured your face.

[6:34] Laura Camien: Amazing. I feel like I look like a crazy puppet whose head popped up and my mouth flew open.

[6:41] Susan Blackwell: I loved it. I loved it.

[6:42] Laura Camien: Yes, that's exactly. And like these rules, just you wait.

[6:47] Susan Blackwell: I know that this exists. This is why I'm so excited. I know that this exists, and I wanted to get into that article, but it's behind a paywall for me.

[6:56] Laura Camien: And I was just like, God dang it.

[6:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[6:59] Laura Camien: And you are going to permeate the paywall.

[7:03] Susan Blackwell: I totally mean. Give mama what she needs.

[7:06] Laura Camien: I totally am. This article's been everywhere.

[7:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And the thing is, so there's no specific writers attributed to the piece, but the editors of New York magazine, Katie Schneider, Joy Shann, Corey Seesha, and I hope I'm saying that name right, and Alexis Swordloff.

[7:25] Laura Camien: They said this.

[7:27] Susan Blackwell: At some point last fall, we began to reluctantly acknowledge that the past three years may have altered or broken something inside our brains.

[7:37] Laura Camien: Maybe it was all the time we spent hiding behind our screens.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: Maybe it was from watching the slow motion collapse of our community ties and our social safety net. But for whatever reason, it became clear that a lot of us were confused about how to be in society again.

[7:55] Laura Camien: Over the past few months, we polled colleagues, friends, and writers about the situations that induce the most anxiety in us.

[8:04] Susan Blackwell: And the result is an obsessive, slightly neurotic list of 194 new rules of etiquette, a modern day guide on how to exist in society.

[8:18] Laura Camien: All right. 194 rules, did you say?

[8:21] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I said 194. Settle in, folks.

[8:26] Laura Camien: Oh my God. Settle in.

[8:28] Susan Blackwell: It's gonna be a bumpy night. No, um, we're not obviously gonna go over all of them, but I grouped a few of them into a couple of buckets.

[8:38] Laura Camien: Like ones I agree with that I think will, I mean, you might surprise me though, and be like, I don't agree with that.

[8:44] Susan Blackwell: So ones I agree with, and ones I questioned or are kind of cringe for a variety of reasons. One of which is that I've probably broken those rules more times than I can count.

[8:58] Laura Camien: Oh.

[8:58] Susan Blackwell: So we'll get into those. So New York magazine divided them into categories, which included like friends and lovers, strangers and others going out and staying in, tipping, work, the city, parenting, posting, and texting.

[9:16] Laura Camien: This article, Suze, sparked me for so many reasons. First, as I mentioned, it turns out that I'm guilty of a lot of infractions.

[9:26] Susan Blackwell: And I want to apologize, and I need to reflect on some of the things I've done and said.

[10:08] Laura Camien: Other people called the rules deranged and out of touch. It was even called etiquette for assholes. The comment section of the article alone was as great a read as the article itself.

[10:21] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[10:21] Laura Camien: So it sparked people.

[10:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I thought today we could have a hearty debate about some of these concepts, Suze.

[10:29] Laura Camien: Spring it on.

[10:30] Susan Blackwell: Bring it on.

[10:30] Laura Camien: Oh, okay. Spring on the sparks.

[10:33] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So let me tell you real quick how New York magazine says that they developed the list. Essentially, for all the aforementioned reasons, they felt like the post pandemic caused our like our social graces to atrophy.

[10:48] Laura Camien: So they said they started with the problems. They asked people what specific kinds of interactions or situations really made them anxious or afraid or uncertain or ashamed.

[10:59] Susan Blackwell: From there, they created rigid but not entirely inflexible rules. Then they themselves implemented the rules in their personal and professional lives.

[11:11] Laura Camien: Okay.

[11:11] Susan Blackwell: They said some of them really didn't work. So they fine-tuned and eliminated and vetted. Then they talked to friends, entertaining experts, and service workers.

[11:23] Laura Camien: They sparked office arguments and made messes.

[11:27] Susan Blackwell: And then finally, they arrived at this guide. So it was a group effort. Like I said, there's no single writer for this piece, but there are times when they quote someone directly or add stories or anecdotes or explanations from a specific person.

[11:45] Laura Camien: And when we come across those, I will note that when I'm reading words from a specific person.

[11:51] Susan Blackwell: Okay. But otherwise, it's from this article. So you ready to jump in?

[11:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:58] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Let's start with the easy stuff. And I say it's easy because I think I think I know I agree with it, and I think you will too, but we will see.

[12:09] Laura Camien: We'll see.

[12:10] Susan Blackwell: Please, by all means, feel free to disagree with me. So in the general bucket of rules I agree with. They have the rule, gift randomly.

[12:20] Laura Camien: Oh.

[12:20] Susan Blackwell: I think we both agree on this completely. We are we are random gifters, are we not?

[12:26] Laura Camien: We're random gifters. For me, I think it frees the pressure of gifting on a specific day, like a birthday. I'm very inconsistent about that.

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: Same.

[12:35] Laura Camien: But it's also just a way to say, I'm thinking about you. I thought about you.

[12:39] Susan Blackwell: You make me smile. This made me smile, right?

[12:41] Laura Camien: I like this, and I think you'd like this.

[12:44] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. But I want you to be more like me.

[12:48] Laura Camien: I'm just kidding. But I like to get a gift, don't you?

[12:52] Susan Blackwell: This really is working for me so far because it just it really lines up with my inconsistency.

[12:58] Laura Camien: Like this is how I roll. So I'm like, oh, somebody that's right. The Cut has deigned to stamp it as approved.

[13:05] Susan Blackwell: Great. Exactly. Exactly. And they explained why, but this is this is my explanation, but I was totally into it. And yeah, they also added, like, always send mail.

[13:16] Laura Camien: Everybody loves getting mail. I think that's a true fact.

[13:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I think that's fun. No one would be against getting mail.

[13:23] Laura Camien: I'm gonna say something controversial.

[13:25] Susan Blackwell: You don't like to get mail?

[13:26] Laura Camien: I don't always love getting mail.

[13:28] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[13:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think that's a really hot topic and very controversial.

[13:33] Susan Blackwell: I can just see people are gonna come for us.

[13:35] Laura Camien: I know.

[13:36] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:36] Laura Camien: The letters are gonna come for us, and I'll tell you.

[13:40] Susan Blackwell: In snail mail, and Susan won't like getting them.

[13:42] Laura Camien: I just want to say I've observed in myself sometimes when people send me mail.

[13:47] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[13:48] Laura Camien: It takes me a minute to open it because I'm like, oh, this is gonna really require some attention and potentially response.

[13:54] Susan Blackwell: Oh, how funny.

[13:56] Laura Camien: That's so interesting.

[13:57] Susan Blackwell: I never feel that way.

[13:58] Laura Camien: I'm always like, I'll get postcards from friends or a card. It feels like a little present.

[14:01] Susan Blackwell: It feels like a little gift.

[14:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, it feels like a little gift. Sometimes for me, it feels like a little homework assembly.

[14:07] Susan Blackwell: Well, I suppose if it's like I've written you this letter because I have some feelings to express.

[14:13] Laura Camien: Yeah, well, that would make me dread opening the mail.

[14:16] Susan Blackwell: It doesn't happen that often. Let's not overstate it.

[14:19] Laura Camien: Okay.

[14:19] Susan Blackwell: So let's move on to another one that I think we can agree with.

[14:22] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[14:23] Susan Blackwell: If you're real friends, you accommodate the most COVID careful among you.

[14:29] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. Simply true.

[14:30] Susan Blackwell: I think.

[14:31] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. Simply true. No questions asked. If that's what they feel comfortable with, done.

[14:35] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. Yep.

[14:36] Laura Camien: Another one I agree with. Um, it's okay to ask how to say someone's name.

[14:41] Susan Blackwell: I right? I live by it. I did it today.

[14:44] Laura Camien: They say do it early as possible and casually.

[14:48] Susan Blackwell: And I agree with that. Like a fuss does not need to be made. Simply ask, remember it, move on.

[14:53] Laura Camien: There's somebody that we've been working with for six months now. And it struck me right before we got on a call with them that I was like, if I knew how to pronounce their last name, I've lost it to the sands of my memory.

[15:08] Susan Blackwell: And I'm just gonna be like, hey, remind us how to pronounce your last name.

[15:12] Laura Camien: That's right. There it is. And there we and it was no no biggie.

[15:14] Susan Blackwell: No biggie.

[15:18] Laura Camien: I used to be very afraid of that, but I'm all for it.

[15:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh, interesting.

[15:21] Laura Camien: Okay.

[15:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Uh next one. The proper response to being told something you already know isn't I know.

[15:30] Laura Camien: It's you're right.

[15:32] Susan Blackwell: I like that one. I think I do it. I don't think I was intentional about it or thought about why I do it, but I think I say, You're right.

[15:40] Laura Camien: You're right all the time.

[15:41] Susan Blackwell: You're right. And I don't always, maybe to my own detriment, I don't feel the need to say, I already knew that.

[15:48] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[15:49] Susan Blackwell: I need you to know that I knew that. I really don't. I will often, like I said, maybe to my detriment. There have been many a time when I think people underestimated what I knew because I did not make a point to let them know that I knew.

[16:07] Laura Camien: I'm genuinely trying this on and trying to figure out what I say. I feel like it's more along the lines of yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[16:15] Susan Blackwell: Or something like that.

[16:16] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm. Because I think there's a way of saying you're right that is in agreement, uh, that doesn't mean, oh, I didn't know that. But now that you've said that, you're right. But rather, like, you're right.

[16:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you're right. Totally you're right.

[16:30] Laura Camien: Right, right, right. You're right. Okay, so I'm gonna say this back to you so I can remember it. Instead of saying I knew that, or I knew saying you're right.

[16:40] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[16:42] Laura Camien: I don't know. Maybe I say I know. I'm not sure.

[16:45] Susan Blackwell: Maybe I do too. I don't know.

[16:46] Laura Camien: But now we have we have an alternative.

[16:48] Susan Blackwell: We have a choice.

[16:49] Laura Camien: Yep. All right. They say the grace period for one on one social lateness without penalty remains unchanged at 10 minutes sharp.

[17:02] Susan Blackwell: No credit is awarded for arriving early and demanding any is impolite.

[17:08] Laura Camien: The pandemic changed everything but this.

[17:13] Susan Blackwell: Okay. I thought that was interesting. And I think that's fair.

[17:16] Laura Camien: Yeah, 10 minutes, no problem.

[17:19] Susan Blackwell: No problem. Especially if you're meeting in real life again.

[17:23] Laura Camien: Also, I think I've gotten far better at this in my older age, but in my young years, I was always late.

[17:31] Susan Blackwell: So I was never ever, ever, I mean, ever in a position to be upset with anybody for being late.

[17:43] Laura Camien: Right.

[17:43] Susan Blackwell: No. I just was like, Laura, we are not a hypocrite.

[17:48] Laura Camien: If there's one thing we're not, we're not hypocritical about this because I've got you know 30 years of lateness.

[17:55] Susan Blackwell: Do you think you're more on time now? Because I attributed your historical lateness to the fact that you were always kind of crushed and running and running and running from thing to thing to thing to thing.

[18:11] Laura Camien: Yes. Probably scheduled too tightly by necessity.

[18:16] Susan Blackwell: Yes. But now life has simplified a little bit.

[18:20] Laura Camien: I think my life has simplified. I have it. And I mean, you learn techniques also of like, well, schedule in the travel time then. You know, you're not gonna magically get from this place to the next place somehow.

[18:34] Susan Blackwell: But I would kind of like on a wing in a prayer.

[18:36] Laura Camien: Yeah. I'll get across town. I'll catch the lights.

[18:39] Susan Blackwell: I'll catch the lights.

[18:41] Laura Camien: And but I also think, like, you know, I was kind of an asshole because I'm not proud of this. I don't like this when I see it and feel it in other people, but that sort of like I'm so busy, it gives that sense of like I'm I'm busier than you. My stuff is more important than you. Bullshit. Like the person who's waiting on you also has a busy life, and they manage to get there on time.

[19:10] Susan Blackwell: So I think it wasn't cool then, it's not cool now. But I think I'm getting better, and I gotta forgive myself for it.

[19:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:18] Susan Blackwell: All right. So we now know 10 minutes is the grace period, no bonus points for arriving early, and don't be a gloaty weirdo if you did arrive early.

[19:27] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[19:29] Susan Blackwell: Here's something I think we'll agree on. Don't browbeat anyone into joining a game at a party.

[19:34] Laura Camien: No. I'm like, don't browbeat anybody into doing it into anything. Period.

[19:39] Susan Blackwell: Period. Okay.

[19:40] Laura Camien: Yeah. You may callously cancel almost any plans up until 2 p.m.

[19:46] Susan Blackwell: This is interesting.

[19:47] Laura Camien: They go on to say at 2 p.m., there's still ample time for your friend, if they so choose, to text around and find another dinner companion.

[19:56] Susan Blackwell: By three, they almost certainly will be alone for the night.

[20:00] Laura Camien: What if it's like theater ticket? What if it's like a big ticket?

[20:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it doesn't seem great.

[20:07] Laura Camien: I want this one to be true. I really do.

[20:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But it's still, it doesn't always feel good.

[20:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, I have remedied all of this by essentially eliminating all social plans from my calendar.

[20:24] Susan Blackwell: There's one way to not break any rules. It's here's one way to not like make people unhappy.

[20:30] Laura Camien: Yeah. Exactly. I'm thinking of somebody I know from our lives, you know well, I know well, who kind of broke up with me as a friend because I canceled plans.

[20:44] Susan Blackwell: This was decades ago.

[20:46] Laura Camien: Day of, and I'm sitting here thinking if I could look at the timestamp of that email, might it have been before 2 p.m.?

[20:54] Susan Blackwell: And I there's something in my body that tells me it was right around lunchtime.

[21:00] Laura Camien: Really?

[21:01] Susan Blackwell: That person canceled you. Was it theater tickets? Was it something big like that?

[21:05] Laura Camien: Dinner.

[21:07] Susan Blackwell: I got canceled. And and they confirmed later when I was like, hey, you seem really mad at me. And they were like, you canceled. Day of you canceled.

[21:18] Laura Camien: So they did not get the memo about there's a two o'clock cutoff.

[21:22] Susan Blackwell: This memo needs to go out because I again, similar to the lateness thing, I have canceled. I've been, you know, same.

[21:31] Laura Camien: And I'm also someone who, for the most part, if you cancel on me, I will be just as relieved to be like, awesome, night at home.

[21:40] Susan Blackwell: I think it's an introvert thing.

[21:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[21:42] Susan Blackwell: I really do. I think it's an introvert thing. And it's a social anxiety thing. It's something that I didn't have language for as a younger person, but I have people cancel me and school me about canceling plans.

[21:56] Laura Camien: And I had no, I had no snappy comeback, except like I could not day of, I could not bring myself to go forward with the plan.

[22:12] Susan Blackwell: And now I know that it was social anxiety.

[22:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, exactly.

[22:16] Susan Blackwell: It makes so much sense.

[22:18] Laura Camien: There's a great thing I saw on TikTok to this point about social anxiety. And it's just this little animated cartoon. I almost sent it to you, but I don't like to clog up anybody's phone with TikToks.

[22:30] Susan Blackwell: And it said an introvert making a phone call, and it's a person holding their phone, and they're like, please don't pick up. Please don't pick up. Please don't pick up. Please don't pick up. Please don't pick up.

[22:41] Laura Camien: And the person picks up and they're like, Hi, I was wondering, and I was like, that is me. Like, I completely read like I'm a total extrovert, and I am, please don't pick up.

[22:54] Susan Blackwell: I'm such an introvert, and I have so much social anxiety.

[22:57] Laura Camien: Same.

[22:58] Susan Blackwell: Like, I think there was a point where I gave myself permission to be the introvert that I always was. But I, you know, like you, people would be like, oh my God, you are not an introvert. That's ridiculous.

[23:04] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[23:12] Susan Blackwell: And I just didn't know.

[23:14] Laura Camien: I didn't have a name for it.

[23:15] Susan Blackwell: Tell that to the number of birthday parties that I have canceled on day of and been like, I can't be at your birthday party. I can't go.

[23:22] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[23:25] Susan Blackwell: I'm so I feel not great about it. I told you that when I was younger, and again, I have so much to apologize. I feel like, oh God, I have people to make amends with. But when I was younger, and I would, I didn't go to parties made me so anxious.

[23:40] Laura Camien: And that can sometimes lead to even more sort of like you make yourself scarce, and people really, really, really, really, really, really want you there and make you know, like great efforts to be like, Will you go? Will you go?

[23:40] Susan Blackwell: Will you go?

[23:54] Laura Camien: And so I would, I think I've told you this before, I apologize, but friends would be like, please are you gonna go? Please go, will you go?

[24:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah, and you had a total plan.

[24:03] Laura Camien: I would have to have a plan, yes. And I would make people promise. And I'm I would be like, Okay, I will go. You will. Oh my god, you're gonna go? You're gonna go? Yes, I will go, but you have to like sit by me, you have to stand by me, you have to like promise you will be like right there.

[24:20] Susan Blackwell: This is my younger years, okay.

[24:21] Laura Camien: This is like super, super like scaredy cat me.

[24:24] Susan Blackwell: And they're like, I will, I will, I'll be right beside you the whole time.

[24:28] Laura Camien: And then what would happen, Suze is like just getting me there is the hardest part. So then I would get there, and then like bam, across the room, like oh hi, and I'm off and running, and my friend, and then I would be like, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, go, go, go, go, go, go.

[24:47] Susan Blackwell: And my friend would be like, are you fucking kidding me? I promised you I would stand beside you, and then you didn't even talk to me all night.

[24:55] Laura Camien: I'm like, I just like a light bulb went off. I did what I was like, this is what I'm supposed to do. And then I'm getting out of here.

[25:04] Susan Blackwell: And then I would be out, like, you know, the Irish exit, which that may be something we're not allowed to say anymore. But being an Irish person, I'll say it, I would slip out the back door, no goodbye, don't make a bust. I'm out.

[25:17] Laura Camien: Best, my favorite. But it's it's cruel. Like, I needed to have some entire framework set up to make sure that I would feel comfortable.

[25:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[25:28] Laura Camien: But then, like you, like they pick up and it's like, oh, hello, da da da. You know, like energy on.

[25:36] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[25:37] Laura Camien: But it's we isn't it weird to have people tell you, like, oh, you're not an introvert. They are not living inside my body.

[25:41] Susan Blackwell: They don't know.

[25:44] Laura Camien: That's right. They don't know.

[25:45] Susan Blackwell: All right, we're moving on.

[25:46] Laura Camien: Okay. For group dinners with friends, always split the bill evenly.

[25:51] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Done.

[25:52] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes.

[25:53] Susan Blackwell: But if you're drinking and I'm not, offer to pay the entire tip.

[25:57] Laura Camien: Just offer.

[25:58] Susan Blackwell: Just acknowledge.

[26:01] Laura Camien: Okay, wait a second. If you were if you're drinking and I'm not.

[26:05] Susan Blackwell: Oh, if you're drinking, offer to pay the entire tip.

[26:07] Laura Camien: That's a great idea.

[26:08] Susan Blackwell: And their whole thing was like, just offer. Probably we're gonna be like, no, let's just split it anyway. But it's just nice to acknowledge.

[26:15] Laura Camien: Absolutely. Um I've I had my friend Dorothy used to call that who had the jello. She's like, I can't stand that. Like, who had the cello? No.

[26:25] Susan Blackwell: It's like, no, no, who had the cello.

[26:28] Laura Camien: And they, I don't know if they say this in if I'm jumping your spark, but I also believe in tipping generously.

[26:35] Susan Blackwell: 100%. People who cannot hang with that, I cannot hang with you.

[26:39] Laura Camien: That's right. That tells me what I need to know. If there's a financial, like genuinely, if you're like, I am busted, then I'll be picking up the whole tab.

[26:49] Susan Blackwell: Like that. You know what I mean?

[26:51] Laura Camien: Yes.

[26:52] Susan Blackwell: I'm on board with this whole rule, but it is similar. Like, if you know you ordered the lobster and no one else was eating, you just acknowledge that. Just pick up the check. And then I also think if you choose the restaurant, I'm super conscious of this now. If I chose a restaurant and it's pricey, yeah. Acknowledge that with your friend. They may not have had that big of a dinner in mind. So I think it's okay to acknowledge and also be prepared to offer to pay more.

[27:22] Laura Camien: Agreed.

[27:23] Susan Blackwell: Don't be a dick.

[27:24] Laura Camien: Don't be a dick.

[27:26] Susan Blackwell: So this was interesting. When planning a hangout, it's absolutely fine to say no partners. I was fascinated by this because I realized I always assume it's no partners unless partners are mentioned, which is also totally fine. Mention your partners. But I am like, if I'm making a plan with you, I assume it's me and you, unless you say, oh, Nathan's gonna be there too. Great. Uh-huh. But not the other way around. Like, I've never actually encountered a this is just us, right? No partners. And I'm like, no, I wouldn't bring Wes without saying, hey, Wes wanted to join us. Do you mind? Like, I yeah, it's weird. I just was like, wow, is that happening everywhere? And I just didn't know.

[28:09] Laura Camien: I'm with you on this. I think I don't know if we've ever talked about this on mic, but I at my first wedding, I had a something, it was very, very curated and it was very small. And you were seeing somebody and you were like, may I bring them? It was also a destination wedding. And I was like, I'm so sorry, you can't bring them.

[28:34] Susan Blackwell: Oh, that's so funny. I don't even remember who I was dating.

[28:38] Laura Camien: That's probably just fine that they didn't come.

[28:40] Susan Blackwell: But I was like, it's so small that yeah, you had accounted down to the detail for every single that makes sense. But also there are people that are like, go fuck yourself. How like you invite me and not allow my partner.

[28:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Interesting. And I believe it all the way down the line to just like for a hangout. Communication is key with all of this.

[29:02] Susan Blackwell: All right. They have a whole bunch of birthday rules, which I found fascinating because I am not one to point out my birthday at all. And if it glides on by, I don't mind. I'm not again because I gift randomly, I'm happy for others to gift me randomly. Doesn't matter if it's anywhere near my birthday. But some of these I agree with, so it's interesting. But my lens might be skewed. Just want to say that. If you plan a birthday trip, aggressively message that people should not feel obligated to come.

[29:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:36] Susan Blackwell: But this is such a no-brainer. I'm like, always anything you do, you should message no one is under any obligation. Always. Interesting though. I just was like, of course, they shouldn't feel obligated to come. They don't have to come. Um, after high school, you're not allowed to be a birthday diva. I'm just like, I know this is rough, and I apologize to any friends of mine who are birthday divas, but I agree with this.

[30:03] Laura Camien: Does that mean like at the big center of attention? It's my day, it's my week, I'm gonna wear a crown, I'm gonna it means like we're gonna have seven birthday parties. I like to make the whole month my birthday, and so I'm gonna be doing all these things, and I want you to do them as well and be prepared because this is what I do for my birthday. And I'm like, how quickly do I need to inform you that that is not how I do birthdays? I feel like as long as there is no sense of obligation, then when somebody can diva it up, as long as I am not my participation is not mandatory, diva it up.

[30:48] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[30:58] Laura Camien: Yeah, we go back to rule the first rule. They also say do not have an ironic birthday party. They say it's rude to the people genuinely enjoying that cheesy supper club or medieval times. And I kind of have to agree too. If, like, you know what? If there are people there enjoying themselves, just don't be a dick.

[31:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[31:20] Laura Camien: Yeah. Don't don't yuck somebody's yum. If they're having if they're loving this, let them love this, right?

[31:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, this kind of goes back to the you can cancel before two. It's fine to use COVID as an excuse to get out of almost anything. I'll take it. I'm like, yes, please. If you don't feel well at all, yeah. Yeah, that's all enough said, don't, you know, please opt out. Yeah. If we've learned anything, can we learn that? Like, can that be the takeaway?

[31:48] Laura Camien: Yep.

[31:49] Susan Blackwell: Moving on to some of the rules that surprised me or I have questions about, or even some that make me grind or make it squirm.

[31:58] Laura Camien: Okay.

[31:59] Susan Blackwell: Yes. All right. This one is weird. This one is weird. And I'm gonna give a there's a person attributed to an explanation, and I'll read that to you. Okay. Disperse. Don't clump the superstars at the table. This is from a person named Wendy Goodman, who I'm sure is someone who knows these sorts of things. But Wendy Goodman said never ever make a superstar, whether they are famous or just extremely charismatic, face a wall. They always face the room. They must be allowed to sparkle. I once sat a very famous actor facing a wall at a dinner party. He did not say anything to me, but I think he was upset, and I've often thought about it since.

[32:43] Laura Camien: Okay.

[32:44] Susan Blackwell: I find this to be interesting because I've seen famous people at restaurants who seem to prefer to be facing the wall or the window with their back to the rest of the space. So they're not interrupted throughout their whole meal. Yeah, and they're not performing for the room. They're just trying to eat in peace and spend time with their friends or their family or whatnot. This seems like a personal preference to me because also not every quote unquote famous person is the same. You know, they are unique individuals with their own taste and their own preferences. They're not a monolith.

[33:17] Laura Camien: Right.

[33:18] Susan Blackwell: And also some people prefer to sit back against the wall.

[33:24] Laura Camien: Right.

[33:24] Susan Blackwell: Or facing the door.

[33:26] Laura Camien: Yes.

[33:27] Susan Blackwell: Because there's something in their nervous system that they can be calm when they can see everything that's coming at them, or they have a vantage point of the door. My husband is not a famous person. He is to me. But he when we go to a restaurant, I know where he's going to want to sit because he is going to want to be able to protect us if necessary. And he's had to, like we've been on the subway, and he has had to, he has physically, physically put his body between me slash other passengers and harm's way. Thrown his body like a shield. And it's because he was positioned in a way where he could see everything that was going on. So I didn't I've that's a tangent, but I'm sort of like superstars, quote unquote, are not a monolith. And so when in doubt, if it's your dinner party, ask that person where they prefer to sit. I mean, it's sort of like really not make assumptions.

[34:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't know about that one. All right, Suze. This one, oh, I'm taking a deep breath here because it's their rule. It's not my rule, but I might agree with it. All right. When another human is present, don't talk to your animal in the private voice you use when you're alone.

[34:55] Laura Camien: It's one of their rules.

[34:57] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I want to say, I want to talk out of both sides of my mouth. Out of one side, I want to say I completely agree with this. I think when I see other people do it, there are times when I find it to be the most repellent thing. I'm just like, don't I? I don't need to know that. It's almost like, or I'm just like, it just is like nails on a chalkboard. And I did when it's me. And I do it. I'm guilty of doing that. It's interesting. It's just something to think about.

[35:31] Laura Camien: It's just something to think about.

[35:33] Susan Blackwell: Is there more you'd like to say, Laura?

[35:36] Laura Camien: No.

[35:37] Susan Blackwell: No, I too also have like sometimes uh repellent reactions, and sometimes I didn't even notice. You know what I mean? It probably depends on the person, the place, the time, the pet. I mean, it can really depend on everything.

[35:53] Laura Camien: I think it does. There are people that I see on social media, because I love a good animal video, as I don't think I'm alone on that.

[36:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[36:01] Laura Camien: You know what it is, Laura? Why?

[36:03] Susan Blackwell: I'm arriving at this in real time.

[36:05] Laura Camien: It's when it feels performative.

[36:08] Susan Blackwell: Like the person, the human is doing it as a performance.

[36:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:13] Susan Blackwell: That I'm like, ugh. And when they are just communing with the animal, it feels different to me.

[36:20] Laura Camien: Okay. Can I just say this is interesting because it relates back to that, don't communicate like you're an influencer when you're not.

[36:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[36:27] Laura Camien: When it's performative, yeah. I think that bothers me. But if you want to get on there and talk as though, like I'm talking to, I don't care if you have 47 friends, I'm talking to my 47 friends, and it feels totally authentic and real. I'm right there with you. It's the performative nature. There's also a faux jocularity.

[36:47] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[36:48] Laura Camien: I don't know how better to put it than that.

[36:50] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[36:50] Laura Camien: And this goes to authenticity as well, where I'm like, the way that you're talking to the pet or performatively talking to the pet has a is not completely authentic. That I'm also like, that's what gives me the shivers.

[37:05] Susan Blackwell: There are certain videos where people are just loving their.

[37:10] Laura Camien: I have to say, sometimes I like this.

[37:13] Susan Blackwell: This episode of the podcast is my instant favorite ever. I'm just realizing it. There are times on social media where someone is especially talking to their little pet birds.

[37:28] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[37:29] Susan Blackwell: These beautiful, affectionate little pet birds. And the bird is so loving and so affectionate and so delightful. And the person is talking to them and responding in kind or laughing, laughing at something they're doing. And sometimes they have a little private voice that they're talking with. Okay. And I'm I'm with it. I'm here for it. So I think I think it has something again to do with authenticity and is it performative or not?

[37:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:59] Susan Blackwell: I think we're getting to something here. Really deep stuff.

[38:03] Laura Camien: I love it.

[38:06] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Now I may speed through a couple, but but maybe not. Here's one. If someone starts telling you a story you've heard before, you have two seconds to tell them. According to New York magazine, you are to interject with, oh my gosh, that was hilarious, or truly horrific, or unbelievable. You've told me. But if you don't say it within the allotted time, you have to listen to them tell the story again. And if you're in a larger group, you just have to listen, period.

[38:32] Laura Camien: You know what gets me about this one is that I have a thing, and I've I'm fascinated by it that people will stop and ask if you've heard this before before they've said anything. So they're like two sentences in. They're like, This one time, have I told you this? And I'm like, I don't know if you've told me because I need more information. I need more to go on than that one time I did I already tell you this.

[39:04] Susan Blackwell: I please give me some clue before you ask me if I've already heard this.

[39:09] Laura Camien: I also I have to say, as somebody with an aging brain, you and I talk all the time for decades. And so we will often be like, I'm gonna tell you a story. I may have told you this before. Yes. And I think you and I, when we're like, I know. When we recognize, yes, when we recognize it, we say, yes, yes.

[39:34] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And so that may be past two seconds in, and there is no offense taken about it.

[39:40] Laura Camien: Agreed.

[39:41] Susan Blackwell: Usually we finish with enough information to make the point we were aiming at.

[39:44] Laura Camien: I mean, it's like name that tune.

[39:46] Susan Blackwell: So if you can name it in two seconds and two notes, great.

[39:50] Laura Camien: Good on you.

[39:50] Susan Blackwell: But you might need the whole chorus before you're like, yeah, I think you have told me this.

[39:56] Laura Camien: I think, and Nathan and I do that too, where we're like, yes, yes, but you let the person make their point.

[40:02] Susan Blackwell: Yes, exactly.

[40:03] Laura Camien: It's like why they're saying this now.

[40:04] Susan Blackwell: And if it's a group and you've heard it seven times, you hear it again.

[40:04] Laura Camien: You hear it again.

[40:12] Susan Blackwell: Now, this one, I'm gonna read a little bit what this person wrote too, because it's attributed to someone named Freddie De Boer. And I have some thoughts about this one. This rule is never show that you're impressed by anyone. And Freddie writes, I'm counseling you to never be impressed based on my conviction that being impressed by people you meet is an implicit endorsement of the status competition that dogs so much of our social lives. We're impressed by degrees and professional accomplishments and physical beauty and fame, none of which is the basis of lasting human connection. Developing affection for someone makes you more human. Being impressed by someone makes you less.

[42:02] Laura Camien: For this very reason. But what I think Freddie is conflating is this superficial adoration because someone is famous versus simply being impressed with a person. I think it can be meaningful to be impressed by people. I'm impressed by them all the time. But the things that impress me are how smart they are, the amount of work that they put into learning something, how they treat other people. These are impressive things.

[42:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And I want to be impressed by that.

[42:33] Laura Camien: I completely agree with you. And as you were reading Freddie's thoughts on this, I really believe in nobody's above me, nobody's below me, haters to the left. It's a really fun way to live. And I'm a big fan of saying what you have an opportunity to say to people. So meeting somebody as a peer on their level and getting to say, I'm so happy in this lifetime that I have this opportunity to say to you how much your book meant to me.

[43:05] Susan Blackwell: That's right. It's beautiful. I'm not subjugating myself by doing that. I'm just saying I see something beautiful that you have made in the world, and I'm so happy I get a chance to tell you. And I acknowledge it. That book took a lot of time and research. That book affected many lives, including mine. And I find that to be impressive, but in a sense of gratitude for the work that they've done, not in the sense of like, oh, you're so much better than me because you did that. I don't feel that way, but I do want to tell people when they've had an impact on my life, I want to tell them.

[43:43] Laura Camien: Absolutely. And both of us have had a lot of opportunity to make choices around this very circumstance.

[43:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Like a lot of opportunity. And this is what Laura and I are describing is born out of probably a lot of trial and error and experimentation as we have grown and changed as people. And it's different for everybody. But for me, this is the funnest place to live. To meet somebody as a peer, never to subjugate and never to subordinate somebody else. I'm not better than them. But to also take opportunities to get to bask in the glory of other people's creativity, their accomplishments. It's so fun.

[44:28] Laura Camien: And it really does, like I have to say, I think it is meaningful to people, especially when you lead with kindness and specificity. I think it's really meaningful to people.

[44:43] Susan Blackwell: I think so too. I'm like, I don't know if I want to live in a world where we can't say to each other, why would people aspire to things? And if we couldn't just acknowledge, hey, you did something meaningful, really neat.

[44:59] Laura Camien: Yeah. And knowing that it could be as simple as like, I saw how you handled that kerfuffle on the subway. I'm really impressed how you de-escalated that situation.

[45:12] Susan Blackwell: You're talking to Nathan now, right?

[45:13] Laura Camien: I'm talking right to Nathan. Tell him.

[45:16] Susan Blackwell: I'm very impressed.

[45:17] Laura Camien: He shielded us with his body.

[45:19] Susan Blackwell: Right. And then I've had people say to me, I'm so impressed with how you spoke to that child. And I'm like, I spoke to that child like a human being, because they are. And things like that that I'm like, that doesn't mean you're subjugating yourself.

[45:33] Susan Blackwell: No.

[45:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:35] Susan Blackwell: No.

[45:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:36] Susan Blackwell: Suze. This one is funny, especially because I know you have a story about Robert De Niro.

[45:41] Laura Camien: No.

[45:42] Susan Blackwell: But this one they named there, like, this is this is the rule. I'm saying this word word for word. You and Bobby De Niro may go way back, but to everyone else, he's Robert.

[45:53] Laura Camien: Yeah. Same goes for Annie Hathaway and Jen Lawrence. Name drop.

[46:01] Susan Blackwell: They say nickname dropping is worse than regular name dropping.

[46:06] Laura Camien: I'm sure I'm guilty of this.

[46:09] Susan Blackwell: Certainly. I'm just laughing. I was laughing because it's Bobby De Niro that they used. And I know you have a Bobby De Niro story. But I don't think I've ever called him Bobby.

[46:19] Laura Camien: You say Robert De Niro.

[46:20] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. So you're proving the point. Like, how obnoxious is that to be like, oh, I was talking to Annie Hathaway the other day.

[46:26] Laura Camien: Yeah. Like, okay.

[46:29] Susan Blackwell: So that I just thought that was funny. You're not guilty of Bobbying him.

[46:33] Laura Camien: Okay. There's a whole slew of rules about if you like them, text people within three hours of hanging out with them.

[46:45] Susan Blackwell: Like romantically like them.

[46:46] Laura Camien: No, it's even friends. I'm gonna speed through this one. This is from Annie Hamilton. And this is what Annie says, and I'll speed through a few things. It was very complex. And to me, I thought, A, I've broken all these rules, and I've had wonderful times with friends, and I feel I've failed them in this whole category. So if you like them, text people within three hours of hanging out with them. If you didn't receive a text from me within three hours after our hanging out, it was signaled that I did not have a good time and I am simply not interested.

[47:20] Susan Blackwell: No, this obligation shit eat my butt. Like, no, no. Annie says, I understand not all of my cohort follows this rule, but they should. It is rude to not confirm that a good time was had.

[47:31] Laura Camien: I hate it when people say should to me, Annie. My rule for you is don't should me.

[47:36] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, oh my gosh, invisible rule book.

[47:40] Laura Camien: Yes. Holy crap. So they go on to if you met the person for the first time, the person who did not ask for the hangout should be the first to text that they had a good time. If nobody texts within the three hours post initial meetup, not only should you not expect a friendship, you should come to terms with the fact that neither of you even respects each other.

[48:02] Susan Blackwell: No. When hanging out with a famous person, you should not expect a follow-up text.

[48:06] Laura Camien: I think Annie's just making trouble and stirring shit.

[48:09] Susan Blackwell: No, it's all this stuff. All of these rules. It was like, yeah. And I just wrote this maybe one too many rules for me within one rule, Annie. It's too complicated.

[48:18] Laura Camien: It's like way too much.

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: No. Here's another controversial one. You can eat anything at your desk in an open plan office.

[48:27] Laura Camien: Even things that that have a strong smell.

[48:30] Susan Blackwell: I think that's new. And I think that will just drive people back into work from home.

[48:35] Laura Camien: You want tuna?

[48:37] Susan Blackwell: No, I don't think so.

[48:39] Laura Camien: I don't think so.

[48:40] Susan Blackwell: I'm so hungry. That sounds delicious. Like, actually, I would like a tuna melt right now.

[48:45] Laura Camien: That's too much tuna.

[48:46] Susan Blackwell: Too much tuna.

[48:48] Laura Camien: Okay. They suggest that we should ask how much everyone pays in rent because it empowers everybody to know.

[48:57] Susan Blackwell: I love those sorts of conversations. Like, why not, right?

[48:59] Laura Camien: I do. I enjoy those. Here's one. Even when a kid's party says no gifts, you're supposed to bring a gift.

[49:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh, this makes me mad. Like anything where it's like you should or you should know the secret rule book. I'm just like, fuck off.

[49:14] Laura Camien: I don't like any rule that is encouraging us to say one thing but do another.

[49:21] Susan Blackwell: Agreed.

[49:22] Laura Camien: Or encouraging us not to trust the words that people use. I think we should be moving more towards trust that people say what they mean.

[49:31] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[49:32] Laura Camien: If I ask you once, like, are you mad? Are you okay? What's happening? And you say, I'm fine, okay. I will take you at your words. Energetically, you do not feel fine, but you have said you are fine. And I can't do anything else except continue to ask you. So if this whole I'm fine in a snippy way is meant to get me uh she I'm supposed to know that I need to ask exactly how many more times?

[50:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, three more times, four more times.

[50:05] Laura Camien: No, no. I mean, if you're not fine, I think it's acceptable to say I'm not fine. I don't think I'm ready to talk about it yet. Yeah, but I will talk to you about it. Whatever, whatever the case may be. But try not to encourage people to use words that mean one thing and expect that you have a different understanding of them. If you say no gifts, I can only take that at its word, no gifts. Okay. Then don't expect that I'm somehow gonna know to show up with one, right?

[50:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm with you. 100%.

[50:43] Laura Camien: Okay. Hot gossip goes into the voice memo only, never in text.

[50:49] Susan Blackwell: I think anything, an email, text, voice memo is a press release. And if you would not be comfortable with it getting out, there are times I've almost communicated stuff to you, and I'm like, I'll tell her when I see her.

[51:05] Laura Camien: Yes. I'll tell her when I see this.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I didn't learn that until later in life. And frankly, it was around a bunch of grown-ups who behaved like teenagers, recording each other in secret, uh-uh. Capturing texts, uh-uh, screenshotting texts and spreading them around. Yeah, I was like, oh my God, I didn't know people were doing this.

[51:29] Laura Camien: An email, a voicemail, a text message is a press release.

[51:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So unless you want it to go wide, yeah.

[51:36] Laura Camien: No, no, no.

[51:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[51:37] Laura Camien: Yep.

[51:37] Susan Blackwell: Uh, this was cringy for me. I'll be quick. Don't be loudly naive about dating apps if you're in a relationship.

[51:44] Laura Camien: I didn't think about this. But so this is what they wrote. Your single friends have likely put up with a host of your well-intended yet annoying behaviors. That time you invited your significant other to tag along without asking. Those other times you offered to set them up with your significant other's unemployed friends. You may think that asking basic questions about their newfangled dating apps. So which way do you swipe again? Shows interest and engagement in their loved lives, but your wide-eyed curiosity could just as easily come across as patronizing and as a subtle reminder of your own blissful insulation from the dumpster fire that is app dating.

[52:23] Susan Blackwell: I feel like that was written by somebody who has that firsthand experience. But this whole group agreed upon it and made it a rule. And I'm like, wow, that's a lot of people feeling that way. I never thought about it. And maybe that makes me the asshole.

[52:41] Laura Camien: Well, I'll I'll I'll take that information in. I also think some of these are just sort of like it's fun for the writers at the cut to be like, not only do we report on the culture, we set the culture.

[52:56] Susan Blackwell: And so some of it, I think it's it's provocative for fun.

[53:00] Laura Camien: Well, yes, you know, totally, totally. I'm gonna say just a couple more, and then I promise we're gonna wrap up. Susan, brace yourself. Do not describe TikToks, it's more boring than describing dreams.

[53:16] Susan Blackwell: I've done that in this podcast episode.

[53:20] Laura Camien: I've done it too. And I'm like, damn. Wow, New York magazine. Note taken. What are we doing? But when you learn something interesting in a TikTok, so I guess, but that the thing is that furthers the idea of like we're just not gonna attribute it to a TikTok.

[53:35] Susan Blackwell: I'm just gonna say, you know, I was reading the other day.

[53:39] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[53:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh, okay. This is an interesting one. It's never too late to send a condolence note.

[53:45] Laura Camien: And they talk at length about how literally, even if it's a year, do it.

[53:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And I'm like, okay, I needed that. I needed that. I like that. Conversely, though, they say if you ghost someone, stay gone forever.

[54:00] Laura Camien: Okay.

[54:01] Susan Blackwell: Ouch. Okay. All right. Um, weird one, never answer a compliment with a compliment.

[54:08] Laura Camien: Okay, this is interesting. I think there's something to this. I think that it could be separated though, with a thank you, taking it in, and then if you have something to say, you could say it.

[54:22] Susan Blackwell: Agreed. Because if you're using your response compliment as like a she a wonder woman deflection, ba bam, ba bam. I'm not letting your compliment in.

[54:34] Laura Camien: But what you're saying is exactly it. Let it in. Thank you. And I love your glasses as well.

[54:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Great, Susan. Oh, this one made me laugh. I'm sorry. If someone mispronounces a word, but you knew what they meant, just move along.

[54:52] Laura Camien: Okay. And I laughed at that one because I'm like, I don't mind it. I like when you tell me. I'd rather know. I mean, you know, I'll just take a running go at something. And if I say it incorrectly, you correct me.

[55:05] Susan Blackwell: They're talking about in the course of conversation.

[55:07] Laura Camien: Yeah. I'm always thinking about you in perpetuity on a recording of a podcast.

[55:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And how would you want to I want to know? I want to know. Or if we're classic, can I admit something to you?

[55:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Oh no. So full disclosure, Laura and I have recorded two episodes of the podcast back to back. We just recorded one, and now this is the second one.

[55:35] Laura Camien: In the last episode, you misused a word, and I didn't correct you.

[55:41] Susan Blackwell: What word was it?

[55:42] Laura Camien: We've talked about it on the podcast before. Penultimate.

[55:46] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it doesn't mean the ultimate.

[55:49] Laura Camien: Doesn't mean the ultimate. It means the one before the last one. So if there's 10 things, it's not the 10th thing. It's number nine.

[55:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That's exactly what I meant. But there's always this moment where I'm like, do you want to be the Hermione Granger, Susan? Who is just like, that's not how you use that word?

[56:13] Laura Camien: But another angle is do you want to make sure that your friend is representing themselves the way they want to be represented on mic in perpetuity? And also, I'm sure I do it too. Anyway.

[56:25] Susan Blackwell: No, I'm saying I disagree with this rule because I want to learn. I don't think I get angry about it. I'm like, oh, okay. Oh, interesting. Wow.

[56:34] Laura Camien: Me, maybe if I'm on like the 10th take of something, which we never get to the 10th take of something. But if we're tired or whatever, I might be like, are you fucking kidding me? B plus work out the door, baby.

[56:46] Susan Blackwell: I like learning. I try to stay not defensive about that. But I also never know like the timing of it. Because I was like, You have two seconds. Even when we're making that recording, I was exactly per the cuts rules. I was like, do I stop now? Do I have Laura just say in the clear the word ultimate so we can cut it in? Do I I was like doing this whole like weighing it out, and I was like, fuck it. Fuck that one.

[57:12] Laura Camien: Yes, I was talking about number nine. Who cares?

[57:15] Susan Blackwell: She was talking about number nine. Okay, I swear we're almost done, even though we're not even like there's a hundred and ninety-four. Did I say that? This one made me mad. Do not touch the small of my back to move around me out of the bar if you're ugly.

[57:31] Laura Camien: Oh, fuck off. And then I was like, you know what? Whoever wrote this is ugly. That's ugly to me. You're either okay with someone touching the small of your back or you are not. But to put that criteria on there of like if you're who the fuck are you? No. To decide. No.

[57:50] Susan Blackwell: Okay. All right. Susan, it's okay to email, text, or DM anyone at any hour.

[57:58] Laura Camien: No. No. No. I don't see how when did that come to be?

[58:03] Susan Blackwell: No. Sometimes people who don't know me well, they may be on a thread of an email thread, will email after my bedtime of 10:20 p.m. And it I will get enraged.

[58:18] Laura Camien: Sometimes I can't figure out the settings. There, I've I've put it on airplane mode. It is on do not disturb, it is on focus mode, and sometimes it will still slip through, and my phone won't stop buzzing, and I want to throw the phone and the texture across the room.

[58:39] Susan Blackwell: I so I guess I disagree with this. Yeah. But here's the unfair thing. Yeah. Nobody knows that.

[58:43] Laura Camien: Nobody knows that my bed until this podcast that my bedtime is 10:20 p.m.

[58:49] Susan Blackwell: I guess my rule is because my I don't get those alerts. My rule would be like, sure, text me if you want. You're going to hear from me on my timeline.

[58:58] Laura Camien: Of course.

[58:59] Susan Blackwell: Not your timeline. But of course. You're referring even to work stuff. I'm like, no, we're moving backwards there. They can communicate it. You're just not gonna hear back.

[59:11] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yeah. I'm guilty of this. Don't comment on other people's food.

[59:16] Susan Blackwell: I would comment on other people's food, but complimentarily, but I think that there's more sensitivity to it now.

[59:22] Laura Camien: Do you mean other people's cooking?

[59:24] Susan Blackwell: No, just like what they're about to eat. Don't say, oh my god, that looks so good. Or oh my gosh, you ordered well. They're literally just like you don't know about people's potential journeys with disordered eating.

[59:36] Laura Camien: Got it. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Don't comment. I'm like, okay, good to know. Good to know. Susan, don't ever message someone the letter K.

[59:47] Laura Camien: I've done it to you.

[59:49] Susan Blackwell: I think you've done it to me. Right?

[59:51] Laura Camien: Okay. When you we are running, when one of us is running late. Speaking of late, and it's like, I'll be there as soon as possible. Like it's the same as like a little thumbs up to me of like, okay, yeah, no big deal. But according to New York magazine, it basically means fuck you to Gen Z, but K, no period or KK or okay are fine. But you can't put a period after no.

[1:00:15] Susan Blackwell: All of this, like this little minutia, and all of this, what it means is that's not what it means to Laura and I.

[1:00:24] Laura Camien: No. No. And I probably wouldn't text that to somebody I didn't know very well. I probably would make it a more formal or elongated, but that works for us, so all of this is to say like people's responses to this article were nuts.

[1:00:42] Susan Blackwell: These aren't even like tip of the iceberg. This is like a sampling. But the comments overall included the sentiment that there is just too much sensitivity, too much wokeness. And who are these people who are just hanging around with so many celebrities that that alone needs its own guidebook?

[1:01:01] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:01:02] Susan Blackwell: Somebody wrote, just don't be a weenie. Conflict, anger, sex, ego, assholes, and dark humor are all unavoidable in life. Adults should be equipped to be in the presence of all or at least talk of any of those things without flinching.

[1:01:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:01:18] Susan Blackwell: And I think my biggest hang up overall with with it is this. I don't like an unwritten rule book. I don't like it when people have a moral code by which they are judging you, but they have never told you what their expectations are. I just, I won't play. I won't play. And it will piss people off, but I won't play.

[1:01:41] Laura Camien: Maybe I had too much of that moving target when I was growing up, just never being able to like please the narcissist in my life. And I used up all my adaptive energy for that, potentially. But if you are my friend and you would like to introduce a new rule into the relationship, please do it directly, honestly, and authentically.

[1:02:03] Susan Blackwell: And that's your rule.

[1:02:04] Laura Camien: And that's my rule. My rule is we will talk about our rules. Feel free to tell me what your expectations are. If I am unable to meet them, I will let you know. I haven't always been able to do that, but as I've aged, I've gotten so much more clear.

[1:02:18] Susan Blackwell: I've had people tell me they're looking for a talk every day, text every day type of friend. And I was grateful that they said that because I was able to say, I don't think I'm in for that. I can't promise you that.

[1:02:31] Laura Camien: So I try to keep my rules pretty simple: authenticity, empathy, integrity, humor, kindness, grace, forgiveness. I think you can get by pretty well in life by applying any of the above.

[1:02:49] Susan Blackwell: Josh Barrow wrote on his blog called Very Serious. He had a lot of issues with the list and wrote about trying to figure out what his is for setting other people at eventually boiled it down to this. New York magazine's conception of etiquette is selfish. It's about self-soothing, having rules to follow so that you can stop freaking out about whether you're doing it wrong.

[1:03:15] Laura Camien: And I have to say, I agree. Most things can be made better when we think about the other person and realize it isn't all about us.

[1:03:25] Susan Blackwell: That was fucking fun. And apparently we had very strong opinions about some of those rules.

[1:03:32] Laura Camien: We had some thoughts, yeah.

[1:03:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And there's others, Suze will, I'm sure we'll do off mic, but oh my God. Don't describe TikToks.

[1:03:41] Laura Camien: They're not wrong.

[1:03:42] Susan Blackwell: They're not wrong.

[1:03:43] Laura Camien: So don't talk to your dog and your little asshole voice.

[1:03:45] Susan Blackwell: They're not wrong. Guilty as charged. I was guilty of so many of these. I just was like, oh God, I've been an asshole and I've been unaware of my assholeness. You know, it's just like there is a lot of cultural and social change that has happened over the past several years.

[1:04:04] Laura Camien: And I think, like, I feel as a person who has like an elastic brain, I'm like, all right, bring it on. I'll roll with this and I can learn. But some of this stuff I'm just like, now you're just trying to throw down an obstacle course for me.

[1:04:18] Susan Blackwell: For some of them. Some of them I totally agree with. But the ones that I'm just like, oh, you're just trying to make my life harder with your rules about like texting after so like fuck straight off.

[1:04:28] Laura Camien: Really?

[1:04:28] Susan Blackwell: When you get into that, I'm just like, that's a hard pass from me. But you enjoy it.

[1:04:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:04:35] Susan Blackwell: You go ahead. Go ahead. You and see how that works out.

[1:04:38] Laura Camien: Oh, Laura, that was so fun.

[1:04:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thanks for going on that roller coaster with me. God damn, but that was fun.

[1:04:44] Laura Camien: That was fun.

[1:04:45] Susan Blackwell: And I guess that's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:04:54] Laura Camien: If there is a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We'll even happily take your feedback.

[1:05:08] Susan Blackwell: But you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently. You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really, really helps other listeners to find us.

[1:05:25] Laura Camien: Also, if you like this podcast, we hope that you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, wait until 2 p.m. Eastern time on the day and text, but don't text after three hours because that will indicate that you didn't like us or you did like us or we're not sure.

[1:05:43] Susan Blackwell: But you did because that was the unspoken part of the rule. Go back yourself. If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:05:58] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:06:03] Susan Blackwell: You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[1:06:07] Laura Camien: Oh my god, Laura. I wanted to tell you about this TikTok I saw that made me laugh so hard. It's a little cartoon of a dog, and it's like, please please wake up. And BB.

[1:06:19] Susan Blackwell: And then another little dog pops up and goes, and me. We're not bumping to something that inspires me. Dump it in the spark files.

[1:06:32] Laura Camien: Spark file could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:06:38] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark file.

[1:06:38] Laura Camien: Spark file.

[1:06:43] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files.

[1:06:48] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark fire.