This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] The Sparks File podcast: The Sparks File podcast contains profanity and other adult content.

[0:03] The Sparks File podcast: And this episode also includes discussion of sexual violence.

[0:08] The Sparks File podcast: Take care when listening.

[0:14] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in in my spark files.

[0:22] Laura Camien: Spark vibes to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark.

[0:31] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone. I am Laura Camien.

[0:49] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:56] Laura Camien: Hey, if you're an OG member of The Spark File community, welcome back, Sparkler. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, new friend. Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:11] Susan Blackwell: But hold up. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations. If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you wanna be making stuff all the time, you know that if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:32] Laura Camien: It can, but don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:42] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast or a story of seduction from an unlikely source.

[1:52] Laura Camien: Okay. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who truly spark us as well. That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime. So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:13] Susan Blackwell: Without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:21] Laura Camien: Hi, Susan Blackwell.

[2:23] Susan Blackwell: Good afternoon. It's recording day. Happy spark day.

[2:27] Laura Camien: Happy spark day.

[2:28] Susan Blackwell: Good spark day to you and yours. You know what? I do love a spark recording day.

[2:35] Laura Camien: I love a spark. You're gonna give me a spark. I'm gonna get a spark, and then I'm gonna share a spark with you. And it just, you know what it is, Susan?

[2:43] Susan Blackwell: What is it, Laura?

[2:44] Laura Camien: Well, I love spending time with you. It also is an opportunity to rock the entire spark cycle. I'm sure I've said this on the podcast before. But like we get a little spark of inspiration about the spark story we're gonna do, and then we actually have to fan the flames and research it and write it and know our mind about it, and then we get to share it with each other, and then ultimately the world.

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: It's lovely.

[3:08] Laura Camien: It's lovely. It's the full cycle. And I personally love like the research and the committing our thoughts to paper before the sharing because you know, a lot of these things would just be fleeting ideas that never come back again if I didn't do that.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: Totally.

[3:28] Laura Camien: And this sort of solidifies it in my brain.

[3:31] Susan Blackwell: In me brain.

[3:33] Laura Camien: In me brain, Susan. Now today, yeah, you're sparking me.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: I'm sparking you.

[3:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I am going to jump in with a little bit, some dark feelings today, just so you know. That's what's going on over here.

[3:49] Susan Blackwell: I can take it.

[3:50] Laura Camien: Okay. The past few weeks, the news has been covering some pretty disturbing displays of anti-Semitism. This particular bout of public anti-Semitism began with Kanye West, and I really don't want to give him or his ideas any more airtime. But I will just say that I was very present to the current expressions of anti-Jewish sentiment in our culture.

[4:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:20] Laura Camien: And while that was very top of mind for me, I came upon this article in the New York Times by Alexis Soloski.

[4:28] Susan Blackwell: Oh, love her.

[4:29] Laura Camien: Yeah. Titled How a Pro-Nazi Camp on Long Island Inspired a New Play.

[4:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[4:41] Laura Camien: Right? You know, you know, I was gonna be like, what? That sentence is so loaded. I also I was so curious where you were headed because I know Alexis as sort of a theater and an arts writer, and I was like, how are we? How's this gonna merge?

[4:56] Susan Blackwell: This is gonna tie in, but here we go.

[5:01] Laura Camien: Same. So when I saw that article, I was like, um, uh yeah, I let what the heck? And so I was in. And the moment, when I tell you the moment, Susan, that I read about the new play by Bess Wohl called Camp Siegfried.

[5:19] Susan Blackwell: I bought a ticket.

[5:20] Laura Camien: I mean, I could not buy a ticket fast enough.

[5:22] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[5:23] Laura Camien: It was like, read, okay, tell me where, tell me where. Immediately.

[5:27] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien, you will ask. When someone mentions a book or a film or a play or a thing that they recommend, I have never seen somebody not only reach for their spark file faster, but also just grab their credit card.

[5:48] Laura Camien: You will not miss it.

[5:50] Susan Blackwell: You will I'm getting that book. I'm seeing that play. If something is not to be missed, Laura Camien will not miss it.

[5:57] Laura Camien: I mean, I don't know if I would go that far because there's plenty of not to be missed things that I've missed, but things that move a needle inside my brain in that moment, I'm like, I'm on it.

[6:07] Susan Blackwell: Love it. Now there's other things like culturally that people like, oh, like everyone's raving about this or that. And I'm like, okay, I might, I might see that. But it didn't, yeah, like it didn't create a little firestorm in my brain.

[6:20] Laura Camien: That makes sense.

[6:21] Susan Blackwell: But this sure did. So I booked a ticket for the very next night.

[6:25] Laura Camien: Oh, which happened to be their first preview.

[6:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh, oh my gosh.

[6:30] Laura Camien: I literally was like, and how soon can I see this?

[6:34] Susan Blackwell: So I had no idea whether this was going to be a great play or not, but I knew that I was drawn in by the subject matter and by the spark that led Bess Wohl to write this play.

[6:49] Laura Camien: So both the subject matter and the spark like really got to me. So I was like, I gotta see what the end result of this is. In this interview she gave in the New York Times, she talked about what sparked her to write it and her creative process, why the story was important, all of those things.

[7:07] Susan Blackwell: I sense that like there might be a thousand ways to write about this material.

[7:14] Laura Camien: And I needed to know what her genius creative mind had done with this information.

[7:19] Susan Blackwell: I love this.

[7:19] Laura Camien: You know what I uh just already say what I love about this spark is that I like it when we get to do sparks about the spark of inspiration and how an artist followed it. So I'm so here for this.

[7:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and what can be done with it, and just hopefully remind people again and again, same source of inspiration can result in a thousand different outcomes.

[7:50] Laura Camien: Love it, and I think that this is a great example of that. So before I get to the play, let me tell you first about Camp Siegfried. Have you ever heard of it, Susan?

[8:02] Susan Blackwell: No.

[8:03] Laura Camien: Me neither. Is this a modern day thing?

[8:07] Susan Blackwell: No.

[8:08] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[8:10] Susan Blackwell: No, thankfully.

[8:11] Laura Camien: Oh my god. This is a camp that existed in the past.

[8:14] Susan Blackwell: But the news and the what's happening in the world and in our country is so batshit right now.

[8:20] Laura Camien: That's right.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And you and I have talked as recently as yesterday. First of all, I think it's also amazing that you were able to go to a play and not tell me about it because we talk all the time.

[8:40] Laura Camien: It was like Wednesday night. There's a block, and it's like, I forget what I put there. Something. I might have put second stage question mark or something like that, but I didn't put anything definitive.

[8:51] Susan Blackwell: It's so funny because I share calendars with you. I share calendars, Hunter Bell, I share a calendar with, just so that we know we just know where we are in the world. You know, somebody's looking in in a good way. And um when I see stuff like that, I'm like, oh, somebody's up to something. Something somebody is sparking something.

[9:11] Laura Camien: Oh, but what I was gonna say is we have spoken as recently as yesterday about uh my sister was kind enough to get me a subscription to a magazine called The Week, which is is a essentially an aggregate of a lot of other journalistic sources, and it sort of presents points of view from all different newspapers and magazines, etc. And just reading that, my defenses are a little down because I've been a little under the weather, but I was shook. Like I felt so disheartened by all of the insanity that's happening in the world.

[9:45] Susan Blackwell: So I was fully prepared for you to tell me that Camp Siegfried is had just finished its summer season.

[9:52] Laura Camien: Yeah. There's there's a number of things that are uh to be disbelieved about this. One that it ever happened on U.S. soil, which we'll talk about, but also that, yeah, now we're sort of like, would I be completely shocked if I heard about this again? Probably not, and that's a real problem.

[10:11] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[10:12] Laura Camien: So let me tell you about what it was, and we will commit to making sure it never happens again. But here it is. Camp Siegfried was located, Susan, 60 miles from Manhattan, just 60 miles from here on Long Island. It's like a little bit further than the midpoint of Long Island, I'd say.

[10:33] Susan Blackwell: Was there a town or a?

[10:35] Laura Camien: Yeah? It's a little hamlet called Yaphank, New York.

[10:39] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[10:39] Laura Camien: Yaphank. Heard of it?

[10:41] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[10:41] Laura Camien: There was even a dedicated stop on the Long Island Railroad called the Siegfried Special.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh, the Siegfried Special that took you directly to this camp.

[10:52] Laura Camien: It was alive and well in the 1930s. It was operated by the German American Bund and was devoted to promoting a favorable view of Nazi Germany.

[11:07] Susan Blackwell: They had a social club for adults year-round, including activities and events like Oktoberfest.

[11:14] Laura Camien: In fact, in 1938, sorry, war is going on. We're not the US is not in it yet, but in 1938, they hosted German Day, and 40,000 people attended, many of them taking that train in from Manhattan.

[11:29] Susan Blackwell: In the summer, they hosted summer camps for teenagers, and all of they had all the activities. They hiked, they swam, they danced, they learned archery.

[11:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's how they get such yeah, that's how they get that.

[11:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But the whole time they're being immersed in Nazi ideology in the United States. And by the way, Camp Siegfried was not the only one. There were others in Wisconsin, in New Jersey, in Pennsylvania.

[11:56] Laura Camien: Oh course there were.

[12:00] Susan Blackwell: Now, in that New York Times article I mentioned, Arnie Bernstein, the author of a book about the German American Bund, said that on the surface, it was like any other camp, except that it was filled with swastikas.

[12:14] Laura Camien: And when you see the images, Susan.

[12:16] Susan Blackwell: Like I'm talking about shrubbery shaped like swastikas, flags, all of everywhere.

[12:24] Laura Camien: Can I pause you one second?

[12:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:25] Laura Camien: The but I'm I the word Bund is it it that is it's not a word that's familiar to me, but that's a German word that means something, I'm guessing.

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: Okay, let's look it up.

[12:35] Laura Camien: Let's look it up together. What does Bund mean?

[12:38] Susan Blackwell: Boond, actually.

[12:39] Laura Camien: Boond.

[12:41] Susan Blackwell: A pro-Nazi German American organization of the 1930s.

[12:45] Laura Camien: Oh, here it is.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it, got it, got it. Especially a political one.

[12:51] Laura Camien: Okay, great.

[12:52] Susan Blackwell: Friends, thanks for hanging with us.

[12:53] Laura Camien: We learned today.

[12:55] Susan Blackwell: A bound.

[12:56] Laura Camien: Okay.

[12:57] Susan Blackwell: So on the surface, this camp looked like any other summer camp, except that it was filled with swastikas.

[13:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[13:04] Susan Blackwell: And you might arrive there to like men in the black shirts and the women in sort of German traditional German garb.

[13:14] Laura Camien: But that is not all.

[13:16] Susan Blackwell: I read further on the Washington Post, the purpose of Camp Siegfried was to quote raise the future leaders of America and make sure they were steeped in Nazi ideals.

[13:29] Laura Camien: Oh these future Aryan leaders, Susan, were not only forced to physically build the camp's infrastructure so that they could avoid hiring union labor because they believed unions were full of Jews.

[13:45] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[13:46] Laura Camien: So they used the kids to sort of build the whole thing.

[13:50] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[13:50] Laura Camien: But they were also coerced into having sex with each other in order to breed a new generation of perfect Aryan children.

[14:01] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[14:02] Laura Camien: So what you said earlier about this dark subject matter.

[14:06] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[14:08] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[14:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, darker than I thought.

[14:11] Laura Camien: And yeah, and according to a 2016 article in the Daily News, they didn't just encourage sex between the kids, they also forced it.

[14:23] Susan Blackwell: Oh God.

[14:24] Laura Camien: And afterwards, like with camp counselors, etc., afterwards, there were horrific accounts of like male counselors raping the female campers.

[14:35] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[14:35] Laura Camien: So it's not just like, you know, when we think about like summer camp and summer camp movies like Meatballs or What Hot American Summer, it's you know, like a bunch of horndog teenagers.

[14:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:47] Laura Camien: This is horrific.

[14:48] Susan Blackwell: But I think it had that aspect as well, because but it was like, but with permission, you know, when I think of those camps, there's still a little like naughtiness about like sneaking away for your first kiss or more than your first kiss.

[15:04] Laura Camien: But in this case, it was like condoned and encouraged that the kids would sneak off together and procreate.

[15:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but sexual assault.

[15:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, exactly.

[15:16] Susan Blackwell: So that was one part of it.

[15:17] Laura Camien: But then if that wasn't happening, the male counselors, it sounds like got to have their way.

[15:24] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[15:24] Laura Camien: You know, like how do you I I'm assuming that this isn't advertised in the camp brochure.

[15:29] Susan Blackwell: Otherwise, like how as a parent do you send your kids, but your daughters, like actually, I I don't know the answer to that from research, but I and I don't want to s give too much away about the play.

[15:45] Laura Camien: I'll talk about it in a minute.

[15:46] Susan Blackwell: But in the play, you know, the parents were, like I said, there was an adult component to Camp Siegfried.

[15:54] Laura Camien: So they were members of this society.

[15:57] Susan Blackwell: And in the play, at least, and I trust that she did her research, but in the play, there was an aspect of like someone might be pregnant and their parents are going to be thrilled.

[16:06] Laura Camien: Okay.

[16:07] Susan Blackwell: So I think there actually was more awareness than we would like to imagine.

[16:12] Laura Camien: Okay.

[16:13] Susan Blackwell: All in the pursuit of their ultimate goal.

[16:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:18] Susan Blackwell: So, in better news, the camp was seized and shut down by the U.S. government when Germany declared war on the United States in 1941.

[16:29] Laura Camien: So it had been protected by the First Amendment, but once we were at war, it became illegal for American citizens to swear allegiance to Germany.

[16:39] Susan Blackwell: Like you can't actually swear allegiance to the country that we're at war with.

[16:44] Laura Camien: So at that point, the town erased it from memory, like wiped it out.

[16:49] Susan Blackwell: There are little historical centers in that town that don't mention it.

[16:53] Laura Camien: Now, this was a little bit of information that I thought was interesting.

[16:57] Susan Blackwell: There's some evidence that the indoctrination worked on people, according to that same Daily News article.

[17:05] Laura Camien: In June 1942, a German U-boat quietly landed off the shore of Long Island near Amigansett Beach.

[17:15] Susan Blackwell: Four men, three of whom were former Camp Siegfried, they paddled ashore.

[17:22] Laura Camien: They had a stash of explosives and cash.

[17:26] Susan Blackwell: Apparently, they buried their Nazi uniforms in the sand along with their explosives.

[17:31] Laura Camien: They were planning to sabotage the war effort by blowing up military installations.

[17:37] Susan Blackwell: Luckily, a single man they ran into a man who was a member of the Coast Guard who spotted them, and they attempted to pay him off.

[17:46] Laura Camien: He took the money, but then he went to his superiors anyway and immediately let them know.

[17:51] Susan Blackwell: One of those men confessed, getting the three others arrested, along with another group who had landed in Florida with the same intentions.

[18:00] Laura Camien: Wow.

[18:01] Susan Blackwell: So they were in deep.

[18:04] Laura Camien: It succeeded in really making some passionate Nazi followers and people who became Nazis.

[18:11] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[18:12] Laura Camien: And fought against America.

[18:13] Susan Blackwell: So anyhow, the way that Bess Wohl found out about the camp was during the pandemic.

[18:20] Laura Camien: She and her husband booked an Airbnb on Long Island in Belport.

[18:25] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[18:25] Laura Camien: And apparently she Googled things in the to do, like um in the area.

[18:29] Susan Blackwell: And so Google spit out um some information.

[18:33] Laura Camien: She stumbled upon a website that mentioned this camp.

[18:37] Susan Blackwell: And then she, of course, just went down a rabbit hole, kind of like I did.

[18:41] Laura Camien: Hot spark.

[18:42] Susan Blackwell: Finding like photos of the camp, even archival film.

[18:47] Laura Camien: And so she hopped in her car to get a closer look.

[18:51] Susan Blackwell: She drove through the area that used to be the camp.

[18:53] Laura Camien: Wow.

[18:54] Susan Blackwell: And the surrounding village.

[18:55] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[18:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[18:56] Laura Camien: She discovered the streets, Susan.

[19:00] Susan Blackwell: The streets in this little American village had been named after Hitler, Goring, and other like high ranking Nazis.

[19:08] Laura Camien: The street names have been changed at this point.

[19:10] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[19:11] Laura Camien: But she also discovered that in order to purchase a home in this area, you had to prove that you had German ancestry.

[19:21] Susan Blackwell: Interesting.

[19:22] Laura Camien: After the camp had been shut down, it became what they called a planned community called German Gardens.

[19:28] Susan Blackwell: That was in place.

[19:30] Laura Camien: This restrictive housing covenant that you had to be German in order to buy a home here, that was in place until 2017.

[19:37] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[19:40] Laura Camien: That's right.

[19:41] Susan Blackwell: 20 fucking 17.

[19:44] Laura Camien: And would we say that, or do we know if those people were just German people, or was it like a little Nazi enclave?

[19:53] Susan Blackwell: Don't know.

[19:53] Laura Camien: Don't know.

[19:54] Susan Blackwell: Don't know.

[19:55] Laura Camien: That is that is weird and dark.

[20:00] Susan Blackwell: It is.

[20:01] Laura Camien: Hitler Street.

[20:02] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[20:03] Laura Camien: Hitler Street, yeah.

[20:05] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[20:06] Laura Camien: So in that same New York Times article, Alexis Soloski describes also driving in the area more recently.

[20:14] Susan Blackwell: And seeing along with these announcements that this is a private community, this is that German Gardens area.

[20:21] Laura Camien: There's no swastikas anymore.

[20:24] Susan Blackwell: But although, Susan, some of those homes were built with like swastikas in the brickwork.

[20:29] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[20:32] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[20:33] Laura Camien: Long Island.

[20:34] Susan Blackwell: But now no swastikas but American flags and Trump flags fly in the neighborhood.

[20:41] Laura Camien: So I read that for the play, Camp Siegfried, which is, as I mentioned before, at second stage, and it's there until early December at least.

[20:53] Susan Blackwell: Wohl approached the play.

[20:55] Laura Camien: Get this.

[20:56] Susan Blackwell: She approached the play like a story of seduction.

[21:02] Laura Camien: When I read that, I was like, huh?

[21:05] Susan Blackwell: Like I just real disconnect at first, but the kind that makes you like lean in, not lean out.

[21:12] Laura Camien: I was so intrigued.

[21:15] Susan Blackwell: Like I would imagine, like my mind would immediately jump to like this could be a story of defiance or repulsion or coercion or redemption, like any number of things that come to mind.

[21:26] Laura Camien: But seduction, I'm super curious.

[21:30] Susan Blackwell: For conspiracy theories or ideologies where someone or a group of people are othered and blamed, you know, for the world's problems or for your unhappiness, and eventually large groups of people get on board with violence and harming those who are different from them.

[21:51] Laura Camien: That happens over time.

[21:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[21:53] Laura Camien: Right?

[21:54] Susan Blackwell: We don't just jump on board with something like that.

[21:56] Laura Camien: People get slowly seduced by the idea.

[22:00] Susan Blackwell: So I was like, oh, maybe this is a story of seduction.

[22:08] Laura Camien: So like I said, I was completely and totally sparked at this point, like by the subject matter, the fact that this camp existed in the US and so close to us.

[22:20] Susan Blackwell: And I was sparked by the way that she discovered this camp, how she researched it, and then I was sparked by what she decided to do with it.

[22:28] Laura Camien: I mean, I haven't even seen the show yet.

[22:30] Susan Blackwell: I was completely lit up.

[22:31] Laura Camien: So I started writing the spark before I went to the show.

[22:35] Susan Blackwell: But 24 hours later, I was in my seat at the second stage, about to see Camp Siegfried.

[22:43] Laura Camien: And I asked my friend Laura to join me.

[22:46] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Laura Coward.

[22:47] Laura Camien: Hi, Laura Coward.

[22:49] Susan Blackwell: When she got there, I was delighted to find out that she didn't know anything about the show.

[22:54] Laura Camien: Like she hadn't read that article yet.

[22:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[22:56] Laura Camien: Which was perfect.

[22:58] Susan Blackwell: So we agreed that I would not say a single thing about any of the background.

[23:02] Laura Camien: We just watch and see how it hits each of us, given what we knew about the backstory.

[23:08] Susan Blackwell: And so let me just say up top, I'm not gonna review the show in detail here.

[23:12] Laura Camien: I don't want to review it.

[23:13] Susan Blackwell: I want to talk about what Bess Wohl created out of the spark that she felt.

[23:17] Laura Camien: Yes.

[23:18] Susan Blackwell: So regardless of how anybody reacts to it, I am dazzled by what she made out of the information she had.

[23:26] Laura Camien: The show's a two-hander.

[23:28] Susan Blackwell: Both the leads were making their New York stage debut.

[23:31] Laura Camien: Johnny Bertold and Lily McInerney.

[23:34] Susan Blackwell: They were both incredible.

[23:37] Laura Camien: The set design is its own character, and the more you know about Camp Siegfried, the more you can appreciate everything about that and everything you see.

[23:46] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna avoid spoilers.

[23:48] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh, I'm intrigued.

[23:50] Susan Blackwell: I know, and I just want to say, people, if you're able to see this show, I think you should see this show.

[23:56] Laura Camien: So Bess Wohl took this information that I just shared with you about a teenage summer camp for pro-Nazis in the United States.

[24:05] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure she took more information than I just shared with you, but she wrote a coming of age first love story, and she did it beautifully, like expertly.

[24:19] Laura Camien: What the actual F.

[24:23] Susan Blackwell: Seriously, I'm just like, how'd you get from here to here?

[24:27] Laura Camien: But like I said, upon closer investigation, it does start to make sense.

[24:32] Susan Blackwell: When I think about Teenage Summer Camp, I think about the thrilling possibilities it always promised.

[24:40] Laura Camien: Maybe first kisses, maybe first love and intense feelings that you're absolutely sure will never change.

[24:48] Susan Blackwell: You might have the opportunity to try on new roles at summer camp, like be a new person.

[24:53] Laura Camien: Maybe your friends back home treated you like you were powerless.

[24:57] Susan Blackwell: But at camp, you have the chance to take on a more emboldened persona, a powerful persona, or maybe your family treats you as though they have very low expectations of you.

[25:09] Laura Camien: At camp, you might find a way to show what you are capable of.

[25:14] Susan Blackwell: Turn the tides for yourself.

[25:16] Laura Camien: And over the course of your summer, maybe you push the limits.

[25:20] Susan Blackwell: Maybe what was a first kiss leads to first intercourse.

[25:23] Laura Camien: Maybe your first lesson in archery leads you to your first hunt, killing your first animal, taking your first life.

[25:31] Susan Blackwell: You know, it's so funny because just knowing what we know about what this play is about.

[25:38] Laura Camien: If you didn't know that, if you're Laura Coward and you sit down to watch this, yeah, it may spark a certain sort of like warm or wistful feeling, but knowing what we know about the greater context, this is like a horror movie.

[25:52] Susan Blackwell: It is. And she slowly reveals, like throughout the play, you do you do like get context clues of like, oh, oh, okay, we're in the United States. She's this character's from Baltimore. Interesting. Okay. Oh, they're saying their parents are over there. Oh, okay. And you're like kind of piecing together what is happening and what are we actually talking about?

[26:20] Laura Camien: Which is what I fucking give up.

[26:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Excuse my language. So perhaps at summer camp, you gain like awards and accolades that leave you emboldened to sort of march confidently out into the world, feeling like a new person, perhaps like a more powerful person. Not all of the things I just described happen in this show, I should say, but the script is really a masterful exercise in using one thing to talk all about another thing.

[26:47] Laura Camien: Wow.

[26:48] Susan Blackwell: That's fantastic. So the entire time we're watching these two form a relationship at Summer Camp, in retrospect, we're really talking about the slow seduction of ideology. It's baby steps. It's the introduction of ideas, it's the justification, the escalation. As Bess Wohl said, it's a play about seduction by bodies, by beliefs, by stories.

[27:16] Laura Camien: In the end, I'm just gonna share one thing, um, just one line from the play. I so don't want to spoil it for anyone, but if you're gonna see it, pause now, I guess, and come back to this. But our heroine in the end experiences a traumatic event. She tells us how she wandered out of the camp and found a doctor. She's physically okay, but she talks with the doctor about everything she's been through, and he says, anyone can fall into anything, really. Anyone can be seduced. And then he says, never underestimate our infinite capacity for delusion.

[27:59] Susan Blackwell: That hurt so much, and it just like resonated and stayed with me, just thinking about what is happening in our country, families being torn apart by political beliefs, by conspiracy theories, by propaganda. It's on my mind all the time, honestly.

[28:18] Laura Camien: Yeah, anyone can fall into anything, really.

[28:23] Susan Blackwell: It just made me shudder. I was reminded of this article by a writer named Mick West in a publication called Big Think, and the article was titled, We Are All Conspiracy Theorists. And Mick writes about how there's such a wide spectrum of people who believe in conspiracy theories because the spectrum of conspiracy theories itself is very wide. There's a conspiracy theory for everyone, basically, and he says very few people are immune.

[28:52] Laura Camien: Mick West's belief is that everyone has a demarcation line. So on one side of the line, there's science and reasonable theories they feel are probably correct. And on the other side of the line, there's non-science, gibberish propaganda lies, disinformation. So to help illustrate this point, he created this scale on which various conspiracy theories are ranked based on their extremeness.

[29:18] Susan Blackwell: So it would start, for example, like maybe like the idea of big pharma trying to sell drugs that people don't need in order to make more money. This would be like the lowest thing on the scale.

[29:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:29] Susan Blackwell: And you're like, you know, it's kind of maybe you're sort of like that's a reasonable idea because they are about profits and selling drugs we don't need would make them more profitable. So I could maybe get on board with that. That's lowest on the scale.

[29:43] Laura Camien: And then on the other end of the spectrum, and this is gonna sound like I'm joking, but I'm not joking. On the other end of the spectrum is for real, a belief that a cabal of shape-shifting trans-dimensional beings is running our government.

[29:59] Susan Blackwell: And that's most extreme. But there are people, QAnon theorists believe that that's what's happening. So you have this spectrum, and everyone he believes has a line in the sand. So wherever your line is, he says, you are likely to believe everything leading up to that line, but nothing beyond that line. Does that make sense?

[30:22] Laura Camien: It does.

[30:22] Susan Blackwell: It does. So for me, like my demarcation line might be around one or two. Like I'm willing to believe that potentially there were other people besides Lee Harvey Oswald involved in Kennedy's assassination, which is it's a conspiracy theory, frankly, because we don't have any evidence of that. But I'm like, you know, if someone presented some evidence of that, I wouldn't be totally shocked. So maybe I'm somewhere around this, like one or two.

[30:52] Laura Camien: But I'm not signing up for chemtrails, which is probably like a seven or eight.

[30:57] Susan Blackwell: I'm not signing up for like some a flat earther. I'm not like all of that is well beyond my demarcation line. But for someone else, like if you do believe in some of the more extreme theories, like the reptile overlords.

[31:11] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh, yes.

[31:12] Susan Blackwell: Or if you do believe that the earth is flat, you are likely to believe every other less extreme theory as well.

[31:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, got it.

[31:21] Susan Blackwell: The point of all of that is that none of us are immune.

[31:26] Laura Camien: We're not immune.

[31:27] Susan Blackwell: In fact, having some prudent paranoia is useful to the survival of our species. So we don't want to lose that bit of paranoia that's like, yeah, maybe the government does do some of these things, or yeah, maybe there is some evil force working. But we want to avoid, I think his point is, and maybe Bess Wohl's point is we want to avoid thinking that we are above all conspiracy theories.

[31:56] Laura Camien: Like it would never happen to us.

[31:58] Susan Blackwell: I would never believe that. Because I think she's right. We can all be seduced by anything under the right circumstances.

[32:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:07] Susan Blackwell: I'm thinking right now, and I don't want to out anybody, so I'm gonna say this thoughtfully, but I'm thinking about right now about somebody who I used to work with, really close colleagues, somebody who I really adore, and their grandfather as a kid was, you know, this sort of hungry poor kid and went to Nazi summer camp, essentially, and was fed, like had food, had, you know, shelter, had nature and fun and training, and it's sort of like under the right circumstance.

[32:48] Laura Camien: That's a e that even that's a more extreme example, but you can see how I have I always think about that, how there's so much shame for people who have that in their lineage and in their past.

[33:02] Susan Blackwell: Well, it's you know, this is too big to crack open right now, but the similarities that we're seeing with certain things happening in our culture now as well, like when you can find a population of people that is disenfranchised, feels cut off from help and support, feels isolated. Like there's a number of factors that play into it. Psychologically, it is easier to seduce them than other people who feel like I'm doing fine or the world is a fair place.

[33:37] Laura Camien: Or maybe the world isn't fair, but the fact that it isn't fair is true for all of us.

[33:42] Susan Blackwell: And so there's a weird fairness about that. Like if you have that sort of belief system as opposed to look what's being done to me, it's easier, I think, to convince those people that there is someone to blame for that.

[33:58] Laura Camien: And then you can identify, and throughout history, not just right now, and not just with Nazis, but throughout history, immigrants, no matter where you live.

[34:09] Susan Blackwell: So if you're in Germany and people are entering Germany that are not German, immigrants, or in the US, immigrants, they're often the easiest group to blame for our problems, even if there isn't actual data that's proving they affected your life in a negative way.

[34:27] Laura Camien: It doesn't matter.

[34:28] Susan Blackwell: It's like um someone providing you with like, look, you there's a seduction to like there is someone you can blame for this. There is a group of people that you can focus all of your negative emotion, frustration, anger at.

[34:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:48] Susan Blackwell: And there are people who will take advantage of that. That also makes me think about I'm fascinated by that graph that you described.

[34:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:57] Susan Blackwell: If you fall to this extreme on this graph, then you'll probably like scoop up and believe the things that you know.

[35:03] Laura Camien: All the other things to this point.

[35:05] Susan Blackwell: There's what I thought you were talking about, and I don't think you are, but something that I sort of became fascinated with in 2021 is this thing called the conspiracy chart, which looks not like sort of a dyad, just a line, like a timeline.

[35:22] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's a triangle.

[35:24] Susan Blackwell: Does that ring a bell?

[35:25] Laura Camien: No.

[35:26] Susan Blackwell: Somebody put a lot of work into this conspiracy chart, and essentially the triangle, the smallest part of the triangle is down towards pointed towards what we'll call the ground, and the widest part of the triangle, so it's sort of balanced on its nose.

[35:41] Laura Camien: Oh yeah.

[35:43] Susan Blackwell: And so down at the bottom we have sort of things that actually happened.

[35:48] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, and then up at the top of the water gate.

[35:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. We get into the like the red hot, like detached from reality.

[35:55] Laura Camien: Yes.

[35:56] Susan Blackwell: This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is like you're sort of you see here, you're like um, I don't know, one third of the way up, and you're like, we're beginning to leave reality now.

[36:10] Laura Camien: But but the original, you can see how it happens.

[36:14] Susan Blackwell: These original things that were quote unquote conspiracy theories were then proven to happen. So that's like a gateway. You're like, well, Watergate did happen. The government did lie about this. Operation Paperclip did happen.

[36:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:29] Susan Blackwell: Um Tuskegee Airmen were tested on and lied about and by our government. So you sort of are like, this is an entry point to start believing things.

[36:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:41] Susan Blackwell: And then you start leaving reality.

[36:43] Laura Camien: This is amazing.

[36:44] Susan Blackwell: Whoever made this, I have this in my Sparks file, and this is what I first thought you were talking about, but this is a really cool infographic because it's interactive, and you can click on any of the conspiracies to learn more about them.

[36:58] Laura Camien: And some of them are well I'm gonna say relatively harmless like Elvis is alive kind of thing or some of them are funny like Ted Cruz is actually the zodiac killer.

[37:09] Susan Blackwell: And then some of them get into what the builder of this infographic calls you pass through the anti-Semitic point of no return, which is where it gets you know not only is it unhinged, it's uh it's dangerous.

[37:26] Laura Camien: Yes and it's dangerous because when especially when you look at any of this and you realize that people are being whipped into a frenzy that leads to violence or a willingness to perpetuate violence based on these ideas.

[37:45] Susan Blackwell: And they are systematically training people to dehumanize other groups of people and that's how you get to genocide like how the hell does that happen? It's by slowly being seduced into the idea that these aren't real people anyway.

[38:03] Laura Camien: These are aliens there was a longstanding belief that the queen was one of these reptilian um aliens and what is this like Biden is a robot etc.

[38:14] Susan Blackwell: So if you can literally separate them from their humanity you have a more willing um army yes to inflict harm.

[38:26] Laura Camien: Wow or and the step before this before I think it's a step before they are actually reptilian um aliens, is they're pedophiles.

[38:36] Susan Blackwell: We can all agree there's just, you know, nothing worse than people who would harm children in that way and mass murderers and pedophiles.

[38:44] Laura Camien: So you again, you make it if you can convince people that our politicians are pedophiles, you can arrive at the breaking into Nancy Pelosi's home looking for her, wanting to murder her, and instead beating up her husband.

[39:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:00] Laura Camien: Suze, I get really fired up about this. I get really disheartened by it. It really scares me and it freaks me out and it depresses me.

[39:11] Susan Blackwell: Same, but I was working on another spark and came upon some information that might be useful to help. It might be helpful.

[39:21] Laura Camien: I'll take it.

[39:22] Susan Blackwell: Okay. I discovered that it feels like conspiracy theories are on the rise now.

[39:29] Laura Camien: It feels that way because of social media and the quickness with which we can, you know, get news out.

[39:38] Susan Blackwell: But in actuality, conspiracy theories have been around since the 1400s.

[39:45] Laura Camien: They usually raise their, like, oh, there's more awareness around them during times of like instability. Um, and so you can actually track through time that these things are, um, they happen every so often.

[39:59] Susan Blackwell: Now, obviously, there's times where like Salem witch trials, the Nazis, and others and others and others, where it leads to huge groups of people being persecuted, killed, and killed.

[40:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:13] Susan Blackwell: And that's where I think like it gets like super scary. And I think that's why we're scared now of like this might all lead to violence.

[40:22] Laura Camien: But the reason they don't go away is because of profit. It's all, it's follow the money. There's money to be made off of flat earthers. There's money to be made off of election deniers. Alex Jones. Money to be made, money to be made.

[40:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I don't know. I guess I take a little bit of solace in knowing that we just have a greater awareness of it, but they're not necessarily growing in power or growing in numbers of people.

[40:55] Laura Camien: I hope that's true. I hope that remains true. And um, but I'm still, I'm totally with you on the, uh, genuine concern for violence and where this leads.

[41:05] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely, because if you have people believing the big lie that the election was rigged or the election was stolen, and then the people that believe that and take that position are in, uh, roles of authority in politics, in the actual election, then it starts getting really dangerous.

[41:28] Laura Camien: It really does, and like not to be a voting answers everything person, but if the numbers are true that more people don't believe in this stuff than do believe in it, if we all freaking vote.

[41:46] Susan Blackwell: If you take nothing away from this podcast today, I just want to say let's just say it every episode. Vote, vote, you have to vote.

[41:56] Laura Camien: Yeah, you, you, the options are we thought like, oh yeah, you know, you might have been a person who was sort of like, I haven't voted yet in an election. If you are of legal voting age and you haven't been voting or haven't voted recently or ever, it's time to vote.

[42:14] Susan Blackwell: It is time to vote.

[42:16] Laura Camien: It's time to vote.

[42:17] Susan Blackwell: And I'm also going to say it is time, we're getting a little into what do we make of all this, but it is time to pay attention to what's happening in your local education boards.

[42:29] Laura Camien: Yes.

[42:30] Susan Blackwell: Because as evidenced, even in this spark, the battleground is for young minds.

[42:37] Laura Camien: Yes.

[42:37] Susan Blackwell: Because they want to indoctrinate them from the beginning.

[42:43] Laura Camien: And so pay attention to what is happening and get involved on the local level because all of that will make a difference.

[42:50] Susan Blackwell: This summer camp. This summer camp that we know of, there were people who literally tried to thwart the American effort in the war. And they came right from this camp.

[43:02] Laura Camien: So it works on malleable young minds.

[43:08] Susan Blackwell: So we must stay diligent.

[43:10] Laura Camien: I agree with that. I just want to jump back for a second and just you just said that conspiracy theories have been around since the 1400s. I'm guessing have been documented since the 1400s. And I'm just curious what a 1400s conspiracy theory might look like or sound like.

[43:27] Susan Blackwell: You know, Suze. So number one, I bet there's conspiracies about the plague, just like we have with COVID.

[43:33] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[43:33] Susan Blackwell: Like the what is the source of the plague?

[43:36] Laura Camien: That's right.

[43:36] Susan Blackwell: What is the, what is the cure for the plague?

[43:39] Laura Camien: Yes, absolutely. I think that what we saw were spiritual and witchery. So, like when things would happen, magical thinking, basically. So, when something might happen, someone got sick, right? And two nights earlier they had dinner with this person. So, making false connections between things and making it sort of witchery and, um, anti whatever religion they were occupied with.

[44:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[44:10] Laura Camien: That makes sense.

[44:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[44:11] Laura Camien: That makes sense.

[44:13] Susan Blackwell: I think so. I don't love it, but it does make sense.

[44:16] Laura Camien: So, what do we make of all of this, friends? What we just mentioned, number one, stay diligent. I hope that we can take an awareness that we are all capable of being seduced. From pickup artists to propagandists, there are groups of people who would benefit from us believing things in particular, believing things that divide us.

[44:38] Susan Blackwell: So stay focused on using your superpowers for good, my friends. Stay focused on what heals us, the art forms that bring us together. Let's stay diligent and focused on that.

[44:53] Laura Camien: As creatives, I hope we are all so sparked by Beth's approach to this story, making her play a story of seduction. When I think about all of the historic stories out there, and you know I love them, Suze. I love to write them, I love to read them, I love to watch them.

[45:11] Susan Blackwell: You could, you would marry them if you could.

[45:13] Laura Camien: I would marry my historical stories, but I think that this is an essential step. One way of writing the story is exactly as it happened chronologically. That is a fine choice. Like tell us, tell us what happened. But another way to approach an event in history or a person in history you want to write about is to determine what kind of story it wants to be.

[45:38] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes we can have the very same information, and one creative might say, I see a story of redemption, and another might say, I see a love story, or a story of forgiveness, and on and on. And with a person, you can sometimes just take like a person who's had a really big life, like Elvis, or you know, we've seen these biopics. You can take just one section of their life, and like this decade of their life was a story of forgiveness. It doesn't tell the whole story of their life, but this part of it tells this story.

[46:14] Laura Camien: It's a worthy endeavor to take the time to explore this before jumping into the retelling of a historic event.

[46:22] Susan Blackwell: I love that you say that because just to bring you into our world a little bit, recently in our Blaze course, Laura, you did a kick-ass class. You did this curriculum around storytelling. And while it centered more on storytelling and screenwriting, it really spoke to so many of the different creatives in the group, including me. I don't consider myself a screenwriter, but earlier when you were talking about Bess Wohl framing this as a story of seduction, I was like, ah, Laura, story themes. Like how if you do make something out of this, like how you frame the story and what themes you want to use to, I don't know, make it relevant and human.

[47:11] Laura Camien: I love that.

[47:12] Susan Blackwell: And heal people.

[47:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:15] Laura Camien: Thanks, Suze. I know you know this, Suze, but I just want to, I want to end on this thought. I know you know my grandfather was a screaming eagle in World War II.

[47:26] Susan Blackwell: I do.

[47:27] Laura Camien: He was a paratrooper in the 101st Airborne. He jumped out of a plane over Normandy Beach on D-Day. He wouldn't talk about what he went through during that war, but as a family, we've pieced a lot of that together. And I might do like a full spark on that one day. But for today, suffice to say, I grew up knowing one thing. The Nazis were our enemy. And no matter what else people disagreed about, we could all agree on that. We could draw the line at religious persecution and mass genocide, full stop. I grew up with that understanding.

[48:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[48:09] Laura Camien: And I'm reminded of what Bess Wohl said in the New York Times. If we're going to live up to the moral imperative of never again, we have to look at these stories. We have to tell these stories, and we have to learn from them.

[48:26] Susan Blackwell: Agreed.

[48:27] Laura Camien: That's my spark.

[48:29] Susan Blackwell: It's a good spark, Laura.

[48:31] Laura Camien: It's a hard spark.

[48:33] Susan Blackwell: It's a hard spark.

[48:34] Laura Camien: It's hard, but we can take it.

[48:38] Susan Blackwell: Why?

[48:38] Laura Camien: Because we're strong creative conduits.

[48:40] Susan Blackwell: We're strong.

[48:42] Laura Camien: Creative conduits. And sometimes it is about finding the way in which someone can receive information as well.

[48:50] Susan Blackwell: Yes, that's great.

[48:52] Laura Camien: What do we make of it too? It's a weird tension to be like you and I, I think are both super sensitive people. And we also believe deeply that we're strong creative conduits.

[48:53] Susan Blackwell: It's a weird tension.

[49:04] Laura Camien: It is, but I think it's both can be true. Like I can hold this, I can hold all of this and understand that it is all for good.

[49:15] Susan Blackwell: It's storytelling for good and for healing and for love, essentially.

[49:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[49:24] Laura Camien: That's what it's all about.

[49:26] Susan Blackwell: Clap, clap. Great spark, Laura Camien.

[49:28] Laura Camien: Thanks, Sus.

[49:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh boy. Woo-hoo!

[49:31] Laura Camien: That's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people.

[49:39] Susan Blackwell: And as always, we hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

[50:02] Laura Camien: First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[50:06] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at The Spark File and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really helps other listeners to find us.

[50:14] Laura Camien: Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, I can't imagine why you didn't like it.

[50:22] Susan Blackwell: What is not to like?

[50:24] Laura Camien: It's awesome.

[50:25] Susan Blackwell: Little baby cams is awesome.

[50:27] Laura Camien: Thanks, Sus. If something did light you up or get your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door.

[50:40] Susan Blackwell: It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[50:45] Laura Camien: You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[50:50] Susan Blackwell: Bye.

[50:51] Laura Camien: Bye.

[50:52] Susan Blackwell: Vote when I bucket into something that inspires me.

[50:58] Laura Camien: I dump it in my spark fire.

[51:02] Susan Blackwell: Spark could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[51:08] Laura Camien: I pump it in the spark fire.

[51:08] Susan Blackwell: Spark fire.

[51:13] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark fire.