This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:42] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, your one-stop walk-in closet for creative inspiration.

[0:46] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:47] Laura Camien: And I'm Laura Camien. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I have to file in it?

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: That's a good question.

[0:58] Laura Camien: Good questions. And we have got answers.

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: We do. A Spark File is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations. Here's the deal. We are makers and we are always making all kinds of things.

[1:12] Laura Camien: And if you're like us and making stuff all the time or want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:21] Susan Blackwell: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity. Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:32] Laura Camien: Or an idea that induces sweaty palms, nausea, and potentially crapping your pants.

[1:38] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:39] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[1:40] Susan Blackwell: Or a lifetime full of creativity built to give love and to get love.

[1:47] Laura Camien: Oh.

[1:47] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks.

[1:51] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might appreciate the sparks in your own backyard.

[1:55] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:01] Laura Camien: That's how you say it now.

[2:02] Susan Blackwell: That's how the kids are saying it now.

[2:03] Laura Camien: Yes. Um, I just have I've I've gone around the band.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: I love when you go around the band.

[2:13] Laura Camien: I want to see what's back there. This happened when the theme song came up, and I was like, so just full disclosure, counselors.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: We this is sort of the culmination of the Sparkfile New Year 2020 Creativity Workshop and Live Podcast.

[2:32] Laura Camien: Which has been a weekend. This is the live podcast portion of the proceedings.

[2:37] Susan Blackwell: And we're and so the audience is you know singing along with the theme song, and I'm like, this is the best sounding.

[2:44] Laura Camien: This has like there's harmonies, and I was like, what's happening?

[2:47] Susan Blackwell: And then I looked over and I was like, oh, half of Broadway is sitting in the audience.

[2:47] Laura Camien: And I was like, 'cause we brought in the ringers and the professionals. If you could be here for every episode, that would be great.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: That would. Um it's been a hell of a weekend.

[3:03] Laura Camien: It's been amazing.

[3:04] Susan Blackwell: It's been a joy ride.

[3:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:07] Laura Camien: And I think it bears mentioning that we are recording this in front of a live audience at Mark Fisher Fitness.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: The heart of Midtown Manhattan. And this space, we're so thankful to be in this space because it has just it is sort of like it's absolutely chock-a-block with its own sparks and creativity and positivity.

[3:27] Laura Camien: It is, and it's also full of that loving and supportive vibe.

[3:33] Susan Blackwell: 100% that we all need.

[3:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:35] Laura Camien: It's pretty good.

[3:36] Susan Blackwell: That's pretty good.

[3:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:37] Susan Blackwell: Do we have anything else we want to say before?

[3:39] Laura Camien: Is there a kitty cat in here?

[3:41] Susan Blackwell: Anthony left his cat ears.

[3:44] Laura Camien: I don't know what happened.

[3:45] Susan Blackwell: It rubbed off on me.

[3:47] Laura Camien: Real quick. I just want to check levels real quick.

[3:49] Susan Blackwell: Okay, check those levels.

[3:51] Laura Camien: This is what happens when you engineer your own podcast.

[3:58] Susan Blackwell: That's better.

[3:59] Laura Camien: How are the levels?

[4:00] Susan Blackwell: Don't know.

[4:01] Laura Camien: We'll find out when we get home.

[4:03] Susan Blackwell: Great. Suze, I think we've reached that the part in the program where we each reach into our spark files and share a spark.

[4:11] Laura Camien: Is that correct?

[4:12] Susan Blackwell: Nothing more. And I think you're going first.

[4:15] Laura Camien: I am.

[4:16] Susan Blackwell: And that means I'm going to sit back.

[4:19] Laura Camien: I'm going to relax. I'm going to drink this entire how many ounces?

[4:25] Susan Blackwell: 32 ounces of gin.

[4:26] Laura Camien: And you let her rip.

[4:29] Susan Blackwell: Okay. All right. So I reached into my spark file this week. Um, Suze, I don't know if you know uh Jenny Slate, the comedian.

[4:40] Laura Camien: I love Jenny Slate.

[4:42] Susan Blackwell: I do too. I do too. She has a book out that's called, I hope I'm getting this right, Little Weirds.

[4:44] Laura Camien: Little Weirds.

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: I mean, done. I don't want to jump your spark, but when I saw the title of that book, I was just like, why didn't I think of Little Weirds?

[4:58] Laura Camien: For those of you who know the term jumping the shark, for us it's jumping the spark.

[5:03] Susan Blackwell: I'm not gonna jump your spark.

[5:05] Laura Camien: Well, let me say it before you do.

[5:06] Susan Blackwell: Just kidding. That's not my spark.

[5:08] Laura Camien: But I love Little Weirds. I love that.

[5:09] Susan Blackwell: You're like, this spark has nothing to do with Jenny Slate.

[5:12] Laura Camien: But it does though, but she also has a new Netflix stand-up special called Stage Fright.

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:19] Laura Camien: And the tagline for that show is Fear is a Funny Thing.

[5:25] Susan Blackwell: Huh.

[5:26] Laura Camien: I love that. I went around saying it for like 24 hours.

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: I was like, fear is a funny thing.

[5:32] Laura Camien: It is.

[5:33] Susan Blackwell: It is. I think it's the most genius tagline for a comedy special that is called Stage Fright.

[5:40] Laura Camien: Um, it's layered.

[5:43] Susan Blackwell: But it's also I hear you knocking.

[5:45] Laura Camien: I tried saying it, and I'm like, it uh I get hair because to me, sometimes it's just uh pant cracking.

[5:53] Susan Blackwell: I'm hearing this, yeah, and I want to hear that.

[5:56] Laura Camien: I'm kidding.

[5:57] Susan Blackwell: Double wears product.

[5:58] Laura Camien: Okay, sorry.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: For those of you listening, you don't get the visual.

[6:05] Laura Camien: I was just silence.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[6:07] Laura Camien: But anyway, I think fear is a funny thing.

[6:09] Susan Blackwell: I also think it's a tragic thing and a complicated thing.

[6:13] Laura Camien: Or if you subscribe to Elizabeth Gilbert's thinking, it's a boring thing.

[6:18] Susan Blackwell: According to Liz Gilbert, she says, I know for a fact that my fear is the most boring thing about me.

[6:25] Laura Camien: This is especially true when it comes from when it comes to living a life of creativity.

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: Fear is boring because fear only ever has one thing to say to us, and that thing is stop.

[6:37] Laura Camien: So when I first read that Liz Gilbert thought fear was boring, I thought she was gonna say that it was boring because we all have it, and no fear is particularly unique, it's rather universal.

[6:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, which is a good thing.

[6:49] Laura Camien: I think knowing that when you experience fear, you're not alone. Everyone has it.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, I also think of thinking of fear as boring sort of minimizes it and acknowledges that it's there, but it doesn't give it quite so much power.

[7:04] Laura Camien: Like it's not the loudest voice in the room.

[7:06] Susan Blackwell: That part I like, but I don't quite agree with her 100%.

[7:11] Laura Camien: Like, yes, I agree, the sole purpose of fear.

[7:14] Susan Blackwell: Jerry.

[7:15] Laura Camien: Jerry.

[7:15] Susan Blackwell: That's right. This is wrong.

[7:19] Laura Camien: I'll tell you why.

[7:20] Susan Blackwell: Never listen to this podcast.

[7:21] Laura Camien: I think we're safe.

[7:23] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, I don't agree with her 100%.

[7:25] Laura Camien: I do agree that the sole purpose of fear is to get you to stop.

[7:29] Susan Blackwell: But I don't really think that she's giving fear the credit that it's due.

[7:33] Laura Camien: I think fear is crafty.

[7:35] Susan Blackwell: I think fear is very creative in the ways that it will try to get you to stop.

[7:42] Laura Camien: That is why I think fear is a funny thing.

[7:44] Susan Blackwell: Because if you step back and look at the incredibly creative ways that fear is trying to work its magic on you, how hard it's tap dancing to get you worked up or distracted or tangled up in it.

[7:57] Laura Camien: Like I think that if you could step back and look at it sometimes, you might be able to laugh at it and its ridiculousness.

[8:05] Susan Blackwell: Take me there, Cameron.

[8:05] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'll take it.

[8:06] Susan Blackwell: Well, hey, sit back.

[8:08] Laura Camien: We're going on a ride.

[8:09] Susan Blackwell: Drink your gin.

[8:10] Laura Camien: So we went to story gathering last year in Nashville.

[8:15] Susan Blackwell: And there was a speaker there who we weren't able to see, or at least I wasn't.

[8:18] Laura Camien: I don't think you did.

[8:19] Susan Blackwell: Wasn't it? Mira Lee Patel.

[8:21] Laura Camien: And I couldn't see her segment because we had conflicting schedules, but I met her briefly, and I learned that the title of her book is My Friend Fear.

[8:32] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, Well, I'm done. I mean, I'm so in. Count me on board. I need a copy of that book.

[8:38] Laura Camien: I'm totally with you. How can I support?

[8:41] Susan Blackwell: I mean, you know those moments when like something rings so true for you?

[8:46] Laura Camien: Like sometimes it feels so simple, almost like, how did I not think of that before?

[8:51] Susan Blackwell: But I didn't. Mira did.

[8:53] Laura Camien: Um, but it just felt so right to me.

[8:56] Susan Blackwell: I've always loved the idea of making friends with fear.

[8:59] Laura Camien: Yes, wait, Mira.

[9:02] Susan Blackwell: Sorry, Mira was at that dinner with us.

[9:04] Laura Camien: She was.

[9:05] Susan Blackwell: The book that she made, is it sort of like it's illustrations?

[9:10] Laura Camien: Yes.

[9:11] Susan Blackwell: It is.

[9:11] Laura Camien: Yeah, okay.

[9:12] Susan Blackwell: It is totally.

[9:14] Laura Camien: Okay.

[9:14] Susan Blackwell: It's beautiful. I'm gonna talk about that.

[9:16] Laura Camien: Um, jump in my spark.

[9:20] Susan Blackwell: I'm kidding.

[9:21] Laura Camien: Um, so I've always loved the idea of making friends with fear.

[9:24] Susan Blackwell: I think that at one time in my life it was a pretty radical notion.

[9:27] Laura Camien: Like if you had said it to me maybe 20 years ago, I would have thought, like, there's no way that fear and I are going to be friends.

[9:36] Susan Blackwell: No, no, no, yeah.

[9:37] Laura Camien: Um, but over time, I think that once I learned that concept of what we resist persists, and then I learned that the objective is not to avoid or eradicate fear.

[9:52] Susan Blackwell: If we embrace it, if we accept it, we can move forward with it by our side, but we're moving forward nonetheless.

[10:01] Laura Camien: I just want to acknowledge that as you're speaking, just as you're speaking the words, it gives me a visceral feeling in my body.

[10:08] Susan Blackwell: Like I start to get afraid, and it starts to make me, if I'm honest, you're like, have to feel like it's not gonna be my BFF.

[10:15] Laura Camien: It's kind of just talking about it, like I start to feel to twist a little bit.

[10:20] Susan Blackwell: Okay, yeah, let's twist together.

[10:23] Laura Camien: So, writer James Clear said, fear isn't something that must be avoided, it's not an indicator that you're doing things wrong.

[10:30] Susan Blackwell: Fear is simply a cost that all artists have to pay on the way to doing meaningful work.

[10:37] Laura Camien: Word.

[10:37] Susan Blackwell: So there's no scenario where you're going to have a fulfilling creative life and not feel fear, period.

[10:44] Laura Camien: I think that, I mean, that's my opinion, but if you're going to do meaningful work, and by that I mean work that means something to you, it's always going to be by your side.

[10:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[10:55] Laura Camien: You know, and the sooner that you can befriend fear, the sooner you can reap the benefits of it rather than suffer the repercussions of it.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: So this is the basic premise of Mira Lee Patel's book, My Friend Fear, which is officially the topic of my spark today.

[11:10] Laura Camien: The spark now.

[11:11] Susan Blackwell: That's my topic.

[11:12] Laura Camien: Okay, great.

[11:13] Susan Blackwell: So listen, I might give you like a few spoilers, but I still think you should get the book.

[11:18] Laura Camien: Okay.

[11:18] Susan Blackwell: Um, one, because I'm not gonna tell you everything, but she's also a self-taught visual artist.

[11:24] Laura Camien: So the book is, as you mentioned, like beautifully illustrated.

[11:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:29] Laura Camien: Uh her paintings and her drawings.

[11:31] Susan Blackwell: So it's it's worth getting the book regardless of our conversation today.

[11:37] Laura Camien: Also, this is certainly not going to be the end all be all conversation about fear.

[11:42] Susan Blackwell: I think that fear will weave its way through our conversations, probably as it does in many episodes.

[11:48] Laura Camien: But I'd like to take, you know, using the framework of her book, I'd like to talk about it today.

[11:53] Susan Blackwell: So when we talked to Lynn Manuel, when we talked to Sara Bareilles, fear is often a topic.

[12:01] Laura Camien: Lynn had said that the pressure and the fear do not dissipate as you achieve success and accolades.

[12:11] Susan Blackwell: In fact, they increase.

[12:14] Laura Camien: So he said you just learn to deal with it more effectively and you keep moving forward.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:22] Laura Camien: Sara Bareilles has talked about how often she feels fear and she pushes through it constantly in order to try new things.

[12:29] Susan Blackwell: Side sparks because I don't know that we've talked about this expressly on mic on the podcast.

[12:35] Laura Camien: And if we have, please enjoy it again.

[12:38] Susan Blackwell: After we were done recording the interview with Sara Bareilles in her living room, Sarah was like, How this is great.

[12:46] Laura Camien: How are you guys doing? Are you excited for the launch of your podcast?

[12:49] Susan Blackwell: It was right before we launched. And I just remember taking her by the shoulders and looking her in the eye and just saying, Sarah, I am losing sleep at night.

[12:59] Laura Camien: I am up and twisting with anxiety that people are going to come for us and they're going to say we're doing it wrong.

[13:09] Susan Blackwell: We were talking about it.

[13:10] Laura Camien: Hi.

[13:10] Susan Blackwell: Laura Powered.

[13:12] Laura Camien: I've said your name on a podcast.

[13:14] Susan Blackwell: What did Sarah say to them?

[13:15] Laura Camien: That people are going to come for us.

[13:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:17] Laura Camien: I'm so afraid I had was very present to my fear that people were going to come for us.

[13:23] Susan Blackwell: For what fill in the blank.

[13:25] Laura Camien: I didn't know.

[13:26] Susan Blackwell: It could be anything.

[13:27] Laura Camien: And sweet, sweet, wise Sara Bareilles looked me in the eye and said, they're going to come for you.

[13:35] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, huh? That's your response. That was the wrong answer, Sarah. Don't say it. Thanks, Sarah Borrell's. But she was like, they're going to. Like if you make something that has any sort of visibility, they are going to come for you. And you can't give a shit. Or you have to have ways of dealing and coping with that. That's right. And I was like, it's like learning that the Easter Bunny is it was it was really something. Sorry. Sidespark concludes. Oh, spoiler. Sorry if we ruined that for you. But we need to put a content warning at the top just for young listeners. Anyway. So let's just start with a basic understanding. And I know you know this, but I just want to have a collective understanding.

What is fear? If you're Susan Blackwell, fear might be defined by the need to shake your pants. It's a truth. If you're Cammian, it might be defined by a daily cry, like the character in broadcast news. This is how this lives for us. But truly, fear is defined as a feeling induced by perceived danger or threat, which causes a change in metabolic and organ functions and ultimately a change in behavior, such as fleeing, hiding, or freezing from perceived traumatic events.

[15:00] Laura Camien: So I'm interested in looking at that definition again. Let's dissect it. It's really three pieces. Fear is defined as one, a feeling induced by perceived danger or threat. Two, which causes a change in metabolic and organ functions, and three, ultimately a change in behavior, such as fleeing, hiding, or freezing from perceived traumatic events. This is great. Right? Yeah. First, I can't help but noticing the use of the word perceived on several occasions. So let's, you know, let's just acknowledge that. Perceived threats. But piece by piece, number one, a feeling induced by perceived danger or threat. Everyone seems to agree that fear is a primitive emotion handed down through evolution, designed to keep us safe from you know, saber-toothed tigers and whatnot.

And we're meant to sense a possible threat, have our brain translate that as a warning and get everything moving so that we can escape to safety. But as humans evolved, our fear evolved as well. So rather than a simple fight or flight response, we now have a more complicated emotion that has spawned secondary emotions like guilt, despair, and shame. And these feelings, these lovely feelings linger and can slowly take root inside of our bodies.

[16:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yay. Evolution. Yay. Yay. So part two of the definition, which causes a change in metabolic and organ functions. And yes, Anthony like just tore that up. But fear begins in the mind, it quickly starts sending orders to change things physically. The nervous system sends out the warning message, the adrenaline surges through the brain first. This will create the desire to make quick, impulsive, split-second decisions. Then it moves through your limbs, your arms and legs, preparing you to run to literally escape the danger to make that possible. Your heart pumps blood harder and faster, which makes your breathing more shallow. You might be sweating, your blood sugar is spiking, the muscles may be inflating, which pushes each hair follicle on end, perhaps causing goosebumps.

This evolved. So that's what's happening with those goosebumps. But every inch of your body is being engaged. And part three of the definition. I mean, those behaviors are self-explanatory. But it seems to me if we can get our minds to understand what is happening when we feel the metabolic changes in our body and not take the action such as fleeting, hiding, or freezing, we'd be doing okay, right?

[17:41] Laura Camien: According to Brene Brown, all kinds of things are fear. Rage is fear, drinking is fear, eating can be fear, and admin. Addict intimates, your favorite. Addiction and violence can be fear. And I think she's talking about and addressing that third point about the changed behavior. Yes. Wanting to drink or eat or pick a fight with someone or play video games for 60 hours or binge watch TV may be the equivalent. Sounds like a great weekend, though. Right. Sounds like a good weekend, but it is also the equivalent to fleeing, hiding, or freezing. Yeah. Right? That certainly feels true to me when I think about like creativity and the avoidance of doing the work. Can I side spark for a second? I hope you do.

As we're talking, I'm reflecting back on the conversation that we just had with Anthony and Shockwave from Freestyle Love Supreme, which may air after this, so get a time machine. But I'm struck by how there are artists like them who place themselves again and again and again in this space of um just right on the edge of risk and fear, like willingly, over and over and over again. And we do it in a way too. But I'm like, they really do it. Like they're really like walking that razor razor's edge.

[19:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And I don't want to jump your spark, but there's something that I'm like, it is, it is I this is not a this is such a half baked spark, but it's almost like it's saying, fuck you to death. Interesting. Like, fuck you. I I'm and live and saying fuck you to death. Yeah. It's like fully living. I want you to shut the fuck up. No, I'm kidding. No, I'm gonna use a phrase I hate. Put a pin in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, because we're gonna yeah, I want you to say that again. But just a little bit later. You got it. And we'll edit it so it happens all in the right sequence. I'm gonna say it so freshly. Yeah. So the thing is our brain is trying to help. It's designed to protect us, but it doesn't always differentiate between facing a pack of wolves or introducing yourself to a stranger.

You know what I mean? So we have to learn the difference and retrain our brains to respond differently, or for us to respond differently to the way our brain responds. If that makes sense, which is all about I'm gonna be like, and so here's Anthony to explain that one more time.

[20:20] Laura Camien: Um, so you might ask the question so if we can figure out where the fear comes from, can we avoid experiencing that fear? Yeah. Maybe. But many times, and this is all in Mira's book. Many times the fears that we carry with us are not really our own. We take other people's fears with us from the moment that adults start giving us advice as children, we are capturing and storing other people's fears. That's right. I see you. Um parents can instill fears, but so do aunts and uncles and neighbors and teachers and friends, and it can be done with the purest of emotions and intentions. I mean, I know I I see my little baby nieces and my nephew, and I'm not sure. You just want to protect them. Just want to literally, I was like, please God, if there's anything I can do to keep them from feeling pain or experiencing heartbreak, I would do it.

I would throw myself in front of whatever it was. Yeah. And then I realized like those types of cautions and warnings like shape themselves into fears, but then they prevent that person, that child from trying new things. And those might be the things that will shape them into the person they were meant to be.

[21:42] Susan Blackwell: So you're actually getting in the way. Yeah. Frankly, you're getting in the way. You have to let them experience it. So we also live in a culture that tells us to be afraid. Our media thrives on us being afraid, spending money is inspired by being afraid. And we're continually being told that changing ourselves or changing our lives is the only way we'll ever be accepted, loved, cherished, or seen. Can you just say a little more about spending money as inspired by being afraid? Sure. Um, thinking that you need new clothing five times a year because the season has changed. Um, thinking that you need more products for your face or your hair, or uh you just need need, need. Although you won't die penniless and alone. That's right, penniless and alone if you don't buy all this stuff, basically.

[22:31] Laura Camien: Um actually, I have a really I have an early example of this fear. I genuinely I remember like being 12 years old. And when I was that age, like I think my mom let me wear mascara or something, like not much, but um, I would get ready for school, curl my hair, mascara, lip balm, out the door, and I was like super proud of that because I could wake up and like boom, I'm done. Then I distinctly remember seeing a headline on 17 magazine. Do you remember 17 magazines? Do I ever? Okay. Yes. I saw a headline. I sound drunk right now. I saw this headline, and I'm not joking, it never left me. I'm 40 some years old. I have not forgotten this. It said something like, if your makeup routine takes less than 10 minutes, you probably look tired.

And it shows. Oh, fuck off. And I'm like, you carry it that fear in your heart now. I carried it for years. I was like 17. Let me put this lip balm on a little slower. I've been doing this too fast, apparently. But I just felt so like less than because I didn't have a more extensive makeup routine. And therefore they're they're partnering with their advertisers to make sure that you buy the products that you need.

[23:56] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Dewy and beautiful. That's right. Got it. Yeah. And in the book, Mira talks about her particular fear of being different and my teenage self related so hard. I mean, I remember my fear of being different was like so intense. I was just like, please God, don't. And also in Kansas, like you, it's like you you want to be special, but you don't want to stand out. You don't, you want to wear something cute, but you don't want anyone to notice that you put something on cute, you know. So I remember being in science class and we were testing our blood to find out what type we were. And I distinctly recall saying a silent prayer. Please, God, don't let me be A-Big negative. Please, not A B negative, because it would mean that I was different and I was weird because barely anybody has A B negative. And I was not worried about the mental, you know, I mean the medical issues of like, oh, what if I need blood and there aren't many people who have A B negative?

[25:00] Laura Camien: You didn't want to be different. I was mortified we were all gonna have to say what our blood type was, and I was gonna have to say, I'm one of the weirdos that has AB negative. And it's running through my veins. It is me. I am it. Yeah. Yes, yes. It was so, but I'm O positive. Thank God. Um, but no, I think um Wow. I think it's crazy. That's amazing. That's amazing. Mira, and Mira wrote this. The fear of being different forces me to be like everyone else. If you don't look too closely, I'm a blur, inseparable from the elements to the left or to the right of me. For a lot of my life, I've tried to remain out of focus. That broke my heart just a little bit. I thought that was really profound and heartbreaking.

I'm very thankful that as I aged, I grew out of that and began to recognize the beauty of being different. And I don't really know. Like, was that due to great teachers and professors in college or friends in college, some of whom are in the room right now? Um, or has it been a change in our culture? You know, I certainly look at younger generations, and there's an emphasis on self-expression that I certainly didn't feel that's true growing up. And I embrace that, I envy that, and I hope that sort of continues. Did you have any particular fears in junior high?

[26:27] Susan Blackwell: I feel like my my history is still feeling it. What like a giant. I've gotten so much better, but I feel like I was so riddled with fears. And we have written, we wrote this musical now hear this. And there's a whole musical number called members only about how we believe each of us to a person believed if we had the right article of clothing, a members only jacket, Gloria Vanderbilt jeans, an ISOD polo shirt, that it would grant us access to this members only club where we were whole and accepted and like the big man on campus and how and what a total crock of shit it is.

[27:13] Susan Blackwell: And just to call out somebody else in the audience, I remember after we performed that musical, our friend Alan came to see it, and our friend Mars came to see it. And afterwards, I remember Alan so clearly saying there was this jumper, there was this this sweater, this jumper that I knew that if I could just convince my mom to get me the jumper, then I would have achieved status. Like and how we all bought into this belief that it was it's the acquisitional mind. If I could get the jumper, then I will be kidding. You're a better person and your life all works.

[27:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:49] Susan Blackwell: Now I know it's smoke and mirrors. And yet sometimes I still believe it. We still feel it. I mean, because it's unavoidable.

[27:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:57] Susan Blackwell: There are other fears, or there's other people that believe that some of these fears are hardwired into us, like no matter what we no matter what we're doing. People like researchers and scientists who believe it, they're hardwired.

[28:08] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I think writers, um, my friend Susan Adams, she's a friend of yours as well. She once said to me, so succinctly, we're all fighting an inner battle, our desperate need to be part of the tribe versus the desire to be singled out for being special.

[28:25] Susan Blackwell: And we want them both. And they both come with their own set of fears. So it's really, really interesting.

[28:30] Laura Camien: I heard that, heard that deeply.

[28:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But some of our fears come from personal experiences, obviously. I know I've witnessed real cruelty from people from one human being to another, and I've learned to fear that. I've seen someone left behind and learned to fear the loss of love. Um, I fear someone being unkind to me or saying bad things about me or my work, either to my face or behind my back or on social media, which just makes it so easy. And that is a very, very real fear that has come from personal experience.

[29:10] Laura Camien: But I've also learned that it won't kill you.

[29:15] Susan Blackwell: Because what you're talking about, I just think it bears mentioning. What you're talking about are these kinds of fears as opposed to literally like I have an intuition, there's a fear rising up in me that's right. Uh, I'm in danger, like physical danger, right? Please listen to those fears.

[29:32] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:32] Susan Blackwell: Like the fear is real, but the fear won't kill you.

[29:37] Laura Camien: Right.

[29:37] Susan Blackwell: You can kind of fears that you're describing. But even the fear of of uh rock climbing, or if the fear, it's not the fear that's gonna kill you. If fear is telling you that the stranger behind you is dangerous, yeah, the fear won't kill you. It's trying to tell you that the stranger will kill you, kill you.

[29:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[29:56] Susan Blackwell: Got it, got it. That it's just a difference of am I gonna listen to this podcast of terrible lessons.

[30:02] Laura Camien: That was to be the name of us.

[30:04] Susan Blackwell: Just our service to society. Um, I was thinking about the conversation that we had about free solo, um, which is El Capitan.

[30:13] Laura Camien: El Capitan, this man climbed it, no string rope attached, no rigging, literally his fingertips took him to the top.

[30:27] Susan Blackwell: Um, and we talked a lot about that. And of course, like if you and I decided we wanted to climb El Capitan or any cliff of any size, and we felt fear about it. I think that would be a good thing for us, if we felt fear and had an inclination to say maybe this isn't the smartest idea, yeah, we should listen to it.

[30:48] Laura Camien: Yes.

[30:49] Susan Blackwell: But for Alex, he trained for years, and fear for him isn't helpful, it isn't necessary, and he has learned to compartmentalize it so that it literally does not get in the way of what of him doing what he wants to do.

[31:06] Laura Camien: I still think about the stakes that are involved in his choices and what a mistake means to him versus what a mistake means to those of us who might be terrified of doing poorly at an audition or terrified of public speaking or getting a bad review.

[31:25] Susan Blackwell: A mistake to him is literally he might die.

[31:30] Laura Camien: Probably would probably would die.

[31:32] Susan Blackwell: But a mistake to us is not going to kill us.

[31:37] Laura Camien: Yes, there's that distinction.

[31:38] Susan Blackwell: That's the distinction. It's not gonna kill us. It only feels like it will, it only feels like we're going to die.

[31:45] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[31:46] Susan Blackwell: So when we talk about that in the workshops too, about you know, the the what's happening physically to us, right?

[31:52] Laura Camien: Yep.

[31:53] Susan Blackwell: So we simply have to remember the difference. Despite all this, our society seems a little bit obsessed with this trying to achieve this fearless state.

[32:02] Laura Camien: Like somehow we could literally become fearless, or we celebrate like they're fearless, they're fearless.

[32:08] Susan Blackwell: I think it's really tempting to think that perhaps if you did things differently, maybe you wouldn't have fear, or if you'd been a better person, could you could you achieve a fearless state? If you'd been better with money, or you showed up on time to everything, or did everything right. Maybe you wouldn't feel fear.

[32:26] Laura Camien: But I think fear will always be here.

[32:30] Susan Blackwell: Even if we say all the right words, even if we do all the right things, send every holiday card on time, all that stuff.

[32:37] Laura Camien: All the zeros in our bank account.

[32:39] Susan Blackwell: All that. According to Mira, fear will still be here because fear is not a consequence.

[32:47] Laura Camien: It's not a punishment we receive for doing something wrong or behaving badly.

[32:52] Susan Blackwell: It's not something we feel because we lack the strength to overcome it. Fear isn't an obstacle to overcome.

[33:00] Laura Camien: Fear is a light that's meant to guide us.

[33:02] Susan Blackwell: This is Mira's writing. Fear is a light that's meant to guide us. It builds strength and provides sustenance. It has the ability to split us open like a knife does a pomegranate, spilling seeds of beauty and incredible possibility from the inside.

[33:18] Laura Camien: It's very flowery and very lovely way of putting it.

[33:22] Susan Blackwell: And it's nothing like what it feels.

[33:25] Laura Camien: But I thought it was really interesting.

[33:27] Susan Blackwell: Fear is not a. Listen, here's all my the insides of me.

[33:32] Laura Camien: But I thought it was interesting that fear is not a consequence or a punishment.

[33:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[33:36] Laura Camien: That is interesting.

[33:36] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[33:37] Laura Camien: And again, the title of her book, according to her, fear is a friend and it's here to support you.

[33:43] Susan Blackwell: But we understand why it we it feels like a punishment because it's so uncomfortable.

[33:50] Laura Camien: That's right.

[33:50] Susan Blackwell: It hurts sometimes, it aches sometimes.

[33:53] Laura Camien: That's right.

[33:54] Susan Blackwell: It does.

[33:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:56] Susan Blackwell: But it's not gonna kill us.

[33:57] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[33:59] Susan Blackwell: Um, sure. But this idea that fear is a friend is supported by a lot of people. If you've ever read Stephen Pressfield, The War of Art, he writes, Are you paralyzed with fear? That's a good sign. Fear is good, like self-doubt.

[34:14] Laura Camien: Fear is an indicator.

[34:16] Susan Blackwell: Fear tells us what we have to do. Remember our rule of thumb. The more scared we are of a work or a calling, the more sure we can be that that's what we have to do.

[34:26] Laura Camien: Word.

[34:27] Susan Blackwell: The more fear we feel about a specific enterprise, the more certain we can be that that enterprise is important to us and to the growth of our soul.

[34:35] Laura Camien: So fear actually shows us what we need to look at.

[34:38] Susan Blackwell: It shows us like how deeply we love something or how much we want something. He also talks in his book about um professional athletes.

[34:46] Laura Camien: And their bodies are constantly in pain.

[34:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah. Like literally in pain. And there isn't a version of being a professional athlete where you imagine, like, well, I'll play when I'm feeling better. I'll play when nothing hurts.

[34:57] Laura Camien: I'm gonna throw Broadway dancers in there too.

[35:00] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna Right. I'll dance the show when nothing hurts.

[35:04] Laura Camien: Ha ha.

[35:05] Susan Blackwell: You learn to you dance right through that pain.

[35:08] Laura Camien: You dance right through it.

[35:10] Susan Blackwell: So I think there are examples of people who are experiencing the pain and learning to create and learning to live with it by their side.

[35:21] Laura Camien: Um so I think we have to do the same as artists.

[35:24] Susan Blackwell: It might be emotional pain, but the pain is there right beside us. We go anyway, we create anyway.

[35:33] Laura Camien: Seth Godin says, What we need to do is say, what's the smallest, tiniest thing that I can master?

[35:40] Susan Blackwell: And what's the scariest thing that I can do in front of the smallest number of people that can teach me how to dance with the fear. Once we get good at that, we just realize that it's not fatal, and we intellectually realize we've lived through something that's not fatal.

[35:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[35:57] Susan Blackwell: And that idea is what's so key because then we can do it a little bit more.

[36:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:01] Susan Blackwell: And a little bit more and a little bit more, right?

[36:05] Laura Camien: Love it.

[36:06] Susan Blackwell: So before she became a presidential candidate, Marianne Williamson wrote a book.

[36:14] Laura Camien: Sorry, sorry, I have to interrupt you. I was walking down the street the other day, and I didn't realize, I didn't realize that she was still in the running.

[36:22] Susan Blackwell: In the running, I think as of today, she may not be, but I think she just let her staff go. But this was last week. And I saw somebody had taped up just with scotch tape, a Marian Williamson for president poster. And I was like, Well, she's out of the race. Don't mind if I do. Because I was like what an amazing.

[36:42] Laura Camien: It has this watercolor painting of Marian.

[36:45] Susan Blackwell: I was like, this is the most misty watercolor presidential campaign poster I've ever seen. And I need that. And you know, I enjoy, I enjoy, I have one whole room in my house that is just kitsch, and I was like, baby's getting framed. I need that.

[36:51] Laura Camien: I need that.

[37:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Sorry, you were saying.

[37:04] Laura Camien: Um, but she did write a book called A Return to Love.

[37:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[37:08] Laura Camien: Um, which is based on the principles of A Course in Miracles.

[37:11] Susan Blackwell: And within it, this little gem of a poem.

[37:13] Laura Camien: Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

[37:17] Susan Blackwell: Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.

[37:25] Laura Camien: We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?

[37:31] Susan Blackwell: Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world.

[37:40] Laura Camien: There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

[37:45] Susan Blackwell: We are all meant to shine as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us.

[37:52] Laura Camien: It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone.

[37:55] Susan Blackwell: And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

[38:02] Laura Camien: As we're liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

[38:09] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:11] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:11] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[38:12] Laura Camien: I do love it.

[38:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I know that once I thought of letting my light shine as a selfless gesture rather than a selfish gesture, which I had been taught previously.

[38:25] Laura Camien: Something that could be of service to others.

[38:28] Susan Blackwell: That is correct. That you can start to think about, like, oh, I have an answer for that fear inside that asks, hey, what what makes you worthy?

[38:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:36] Susan Blackwell: Why should you get what you want when other people don't get what they want? And going after it, you're actually freeing others to go after it too.

[38:44] Laura Camien: Like Tony Morrison said.

[38:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:48] Laura Camien: Oh, I thought you were gonna say it.

[38:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh, uh, I say it 17 times a day.

[38:52] Laura Camien: That's okay.

[38:52] Susan Blackwell: I don't know if we've said it on the podcast.

[38:54] Laura Camien: Have we?

[38:55] Susan Blackwell: As Tony Morrison uh said, and I repeat constantly, the function of freedom is to free others.

[39:04] Laura Camien: There you go.

[39:04] Susan Blackwell: It's that. It's kind of once you've figured out a little something, can you hold up the lantern to light the way for other people to maybe make the path a little more illuminated and their lives just a touch easier?

[39:18] Laura Camien: That's right.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:19] Laura Camien: Fear.

[39:20] Susan Blackwell: What do we make of it?

[39:21] Laura Camien: It what we can make of it is limitless, genuinely.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: On a personal level, you can trace your fears back to their source and find many sparks of inspiration there. You can face your fears directly and write about what happened when you looked right at them.

[39:37] Laura Camien: I love it.

[39:37] Susan Blackwell: A lot of people do this. This is like, I don't know if Elizabeth Gilbert was the first, but it seems like she sort of kicked off that genre with eat pray love.

[39:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:45] Susan Blackwell: Of like, I'm gonna spend time with myself, which terrifies me. I'm gonna look at the choices I've made, and I'm gonna travel and write about it. And then, like a lot of people step away from an established life and yeah.

[39:56] Laura Camien: Um, or you can do something like artist Candy Chang, who creates public artworks that embrace doubt and nervous thoughts and literally puts them on display.

[40:05] Susan Blackwell: She's the creator of the before I die series, which is this like traveling enormous chalkboard that allows people to share their deepest wishes and desires before they die.

[40:17] Laura Camien: Um, so they write on the wall, and by shining a light on them and bringing them into the open, that you know, the power they have over us can be diminished.

[40:27] Susan Blackwell: I love it. So that's something. Um, you can go right to the center of your fears and create work that will scare others, like horror films, or turn the horror film genre on its side and create a comedic cultural horror film like Get Out.

[40:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Jordan Peel, the writer, director of *Get Out*, said it was very important to me to just get the entire audience in touch in some way with the fears inherent in being black in this country. Part of being black in this country, and I presume being any minority, is constantly being told that we're seeing racism where there just isn't racism. He also said, "This movie is my truest passion." It comes from this fact that in order to deal with my own fears, I wanted to be able to master them. I love that. I love what he created out of that. I love it because he talked further about how the challenge was, so any person of a minority might come in and understand that fear immediately. But if he wanted a Caucasian audience to understand that fear, he had to write it and navigate it in such a careful way.

And he did; like he so succeeded, where like no one can name another movie that's ever done that. So I think he, I'd say he conquered his fear and helped us all take a look in the mirror. I'm amazed by that. Those are just a few things that you can create with your fear. We all feel the fear. Can we learn to love it or like it or at least listen to it? Can we support each other when we're feeling it? It's gonna be there. I think that is a fact. So if we're gonna do this together, I say, let's do it, and let's invite our friend fear.

[42:21] Laura Camien: Aw, Cammy.

[42:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, Blackwell. So such a good spark. And I feel like a couture spark for the participants in the creativity workshop. We're all wearing couture now. Couture sparks fancy. That is sparks on sparks on sparks on sparks. And I feel like I have, we were talking in the workshop about giving ourselves permission and just acknowledging that many artists, we tell the same story over and over and over again, and we might dress it up in a different costume, and sometimes it might be a comedy, and sometimes it might be a horror movie, and sometimes it might have a tap number in the middle of it. But we sometimes, like there are artists like myself, we tell the same story over and over and over again, and one of my greatest hits is a travelog of my fears.

It is over and over and over again. We talked about that. If we can sidebar for a second, it's your *Die Vampire Die* song where you talk about first the fears are little gnats, they're also your, you spray them up, you know, cleanse it up my aunt, your aunt, right? And then the dementor, yeah. And I feel we talked about this after. I feel like fear is a funny thing. If you saw all of those as fears, and you were like, "Ha ha, that is hilarious." So you've gone from your little, you didn't get me to stop when you were little gnats, and you didn't get me to stop when you asked me to freshen it up. So you've brought up the big guns now. Now we're dementors. Now you're like, if you could see the ridiculousness of the shape-shifting. Shape-shifting that fears slippery. They're slippery and they're clever. It's wacky.

[44:10] Laura Camien: Yes.

[44:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yes. So we've had fun discussions about fear. But what's more fun than that? Yeah, you're right. There is, unless you're a sociopath, there is sort of a bottomless bit of sparks in relationship to this fear. And if I do a *Die Vampire Die*, it's going to be different than what Austin makes out of whatever his principal fears are.

[44:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:35] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. I love it, Cammy.

[44:37] Laura Camien: Thanks, Black. What a beautiful spark that was.

[44:40] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. I can't wait to hear yours.

[44:44] Laura Camien: Ooh, will it measure up?

[44:46] Susan Blackwell: All right. Let's do this. Let's do this. Kick back. Here we go. The title of my spark today is *Find the Need and Endeavor to Meet It*. I was struck when we were sharing yesterday in the workshop somebody's spark, one of their principal sparks that they first showed out was necessity. And I was like, ooh, have I got a spark for you? Find the need and endeavor to meet it. The sources include sometimes I have 52 sources. My source today is an interview with my spark subject. Period. What? Let's dive in. Um, so as of this recording, we just completed the Sparks File Creativity Challenge, which is it's just a total deep dive into creativity. The challenge in a nutshell asks anyone who wants to participate to do something creative every day from December 1st to January 1st. And we post a little video each morning, including a prompt.

And if you're someone who responds well to prompts, then that works out great, but you don't have to do the prompt. And then people share all day what they have created. And then we do a little wrap-up every night to share out some of the things that people are making. Um, and in addition to running this challenge, Cam's, you do something creative every day, I do something creative every day. You, Cams, you wrote a lot. You wrote so many pages. But you did something like different every time.

[46:08] Laura Camien: I know I did a lot of different things.

[46:09] Susan Blackwell: I painted, I decorated, I crafted, I planted things, I edited a lot of video and sound files for the Sparks File. Um, I wrote stuff, we podcasted. We continued to grow and refine our curriculum. Just so, so many different things. And it was awesome. And also, let's be real. It was sometimes it was so tiring. It was so tiring. But when all is said and done, it was so worth it because we had this external accountability from this community of people on the internet, some of whom we had never met, many of whom we've never met before. And just with that, we were creating so many things that wouldn't have existed. They wouldn't have been there if we hadn't done the challenge. So, Sidespark, you know that for many years I've been trying to come up with a word that describes the sensation that I feel when I'm in creative flow.

Because creative flow, that phrase just sounded so, it doesn't do it. Um, but it's a complicated feeling to capture because it's got a lot of dimensions, and when you're there, it's right at the center of all of these things. To me, it feels flowing, but it also feels focused and it's peaceful and it's satisfying and it's meditative in a way, but it also is like very active, and it can feel transcendent. Like time takes on a different dimension. And when I'm experiencing it, there's usually this moment where I experience this sort of like thrill in my lungs, get this like puff of exhilaration, and I'm like, huh, yeah, it's happening. It's happening right now. Um, so I was, I'm always have been banging my head against a wall.

What is the word that sums it all up? I've been working on it, and here's where I'm at. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Big fucking buildup. Okay. Let's all lower our expectations. Okay. Um, this is where I'm at. Creative meditative flow state, woe state satisfaction. And you can sing it or say it to the tune of *supercalifragilisticexpialidocious*. But I think it gets all the things I'm feeling. Will you sing it to that tune?

[48:21] Laura Camien: Creative meditative flow state, woe state satisfaction.

[48:24] Susan Blackwell: That is the closest I've come. I love it. Settle down, everybody. It's the closest I've come to putting language to that feeling. And I'm gonna keep you updated on any changes that I make to that word. Please, side spark concluded, just wanted you to know. In any event, um, so we just finished rocking this month-long creativity challenge. One of the things I created was that word. Um, and I was talking with Laura about the challenge and all of the work, the workshop and all of it, and I was thinking, all of this stuff matters so much to me. Like enough that I would take time at my desk to try to refine that word, like it's my job. But why? Why am I so passionate about it? Where is this coming from?

All of this energy and excitement around creativity specifically. Why am I endlessly obsessed with the pursuit of creativity and talking about creativity and teaching about creativity and urging people to create more and sort of evangelizing about how life can be better? Like life is tough. And if you've got to experience it, at least you can make something out of it. And trying to come up with these words to describe this transcendent bliss that I feel when I create. Why? Why, why, why? Why? Why? What's your why? I think so much of it goes back to one single human being. That person is my spark for today. It is my mother, Nancy Ann Black.

[49:45] Laura Camien: It's Nancy.

[49:48] Susan Blackwell: It's Nancy. Oh my gosh. She is one of the most—everybody's like. I'm so excited. That it's Nancy. I'm so excited. Oh my gosh. That was a real something that happened over here. It was either like hooray or deflation. I'm not sure. Let's see how it unpacks. It was hooray. So, Cam's, you and I have talked on this podcast about what rich sparks our family and our family history can provide.

[50:19] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[50:19] Susan Blackwell: And we've even talked about interviewing our family to mine sparks. And I've done that in the past. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna dig deeper and blessed that I have the luxury to do that. Both of my parents are alive, and I know that is a privilege. I'm going to ask some questions I hadn't asked before. So I, which was felt risky. I'm not kidding. I was a little nervous about it. So, but I did ask my mother's permission to interview her. We spoke for about two and a half hours, all told, and I asked her questions that we would ask our guests during a maker show.

[50:57] Laura Camien: No way.

[50:57] Susan Blackwell: No way. I'm gonna tell you, I was shocked by some of her answers. But I just like to share some of the things that I learned with you all.

[51:07] Laura Camien: Please can I just say Nancy is such a delight? And one I got to spend a weekend like preparing for a Christmas party and all of you cooking in the kitchen. It's like oh it's so clear how you get where you can where all that came from.

[51:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, she's really special. As are you.

[51:26] Laura Camien: And thanks, Kim.

[51:27] Susan Blackwell: Um, and uh so let's learn a little bit more about my mother, Nancy Blackwell.

[51:33] Laura Camien: Yes, Michael Litting's eyes were just like what?

[51:38] Susan Blackwell: Um here we go, we'll see how this goes. This spark feels like a risk, but here we go. So my mom was born in 1941 in Dayton, Ohio. I'm bad at math, but I think that puts her just about around 80 years old. Sure, geniuses. Um three children. So she's the middle child. Her father, Ed, was a farmer and a florist, and her mother Mary did all the things to raise three kids and run a house and keep the plants growing on the farm and keep the business running. And my mom described her childhood and her life with her family as haphazard. And I think she's maybe being a little poetic and generous with that word. Um, my her parents, my grandparents grew up during the depression, and my mom always thought that they were poor because they had so very little.

And that may have been true to some measure, but more than that, her parents were very frugal, especially her father. Her father did most of the shopping, and they didn't have a lot. The nuns at her Catholic school used to try to enlist students to join the convent. And these nuns practically had my mother signed up to go be a nun.

[52:49] Laura Camien: Really?

[52:54] Susan Blackwell: And she, yep, they sent a list home with her, and she remembers seeing the list of things required if you went to the convent and thinking, oh my God, my parents will never buy me all of this stuff for the convent.

[53:05] Laura Camien: Oh.

[53:06] Susan Blackwell: Underwear, like 10 pairs of underwear, they'll never buy me. She wanted to be a nun.

[53:11] Laura Camien: Underwear.

[53:13] Susan Blackwell: No, no, no, no. Um, she was like, "My parents are never going to buy me this." So that's just an indication of they just, I just didn't, I this is so inappropriate. But like I think about my underwear drawer, and I've got to tell you, it's a fine underwear drawer filled with many pieces of underwear.

[53:32] Laura Camien: I believe that.

[53:32] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, my mom was just like, "They're never gonna buy me underwear." Um, so but can you specify? I just want a little bit of clarity. She thought they weren't buying those things because they didn't, they couldn't afford it. But did she discover later they had some money?

[53:49] Laura Camien: No spark.

[53:50] Susan Blackwell: Did you say am I jumping your shards?

[53:53] Laura Camien: Yep.

[53:54] Susan Blackwell: Awesome. All of it stays. Maybe maybe I did. They had some money, they weren't spending the money.

[54:01] Laura Camien: Wow.

[54:01] Susan Blackwell: But in fairness, you know, my mom said, and I believe this is true, like they, every all the parents are doing the best that they can.

[54:13] Susan Blackwell: Okay. So my mom, her parents, and her older sister and younger brother lived a pretty rural life. They never had running water. They had a cistern under their porch, so they didn't really take baths. My mom would say, I was like, then what were you doing? Because we live in this modern world where, you know, shower every day. You get the privilege of, you know, hot running water. And my mom said they would just wash up. They would just wash up like with a washcloth and a little water. So with like a damp washcloth. But this is the 40s. I'm bad at the 40s into the 50s. Okay. And their clothes were washed in a ringer washer, but that was hard to do in the winter. So she doesn't really know how often that happened or really how clean they kept.

Okay. I'm just stating facts. So they also worked a fair amount to support the family floral business. My grandparents had a greenhouse. And on a holiday where people would purchase flowers to place on the grave of a loved one, like on Mother's Day or Memorial Day, my grandfather would drop my mom off at the entrance to the cemetery with a bunch of flowers. And she would just be there all day by herself selling flowers to people who came, like a little girl, until he came back in the evening to pick her up, sometimes after dark. And people would stop their cars and ask if she was okay. And she would just say, I'm just waiting for my dad. And it all sounded so scary and so boring. Yeah. So when they weren't working, or they did a lot of picking, like from the farming, they had to do like a lot of picking, which my mother said she totally hated.

There was not a lot to do at their remote rural house. And this wasn't a time or a family who invested a lot in keeping kids engaged, which I all the time thought was so sparkish and interesting because now it's just like here's an iPad, here's a thing, here's another thing. We're going to like, here's enrichment. Like there's so much, and my grandparents were not giving a fuck about that. So there wasn't a lot to do in the downtime. Um, there was a radio, and my mother had some books, and my she would spend the afternoons in the greenhouse reading. The bookmobile would come to school, and she was allowed to take out X number of books, and she would find out when the bookmobile was scheduled to return, and she would calculate the total number of pages of all her checked-out books.

She would divide the pages by the number of days, and she would ration how many pages she would allow herself to read each day until she could get fresh books. But she my mother loves to read, so of course she would always like read ahead. She loves, loves, loves, loves reading, and still still does because it was such a source of entertainment. And all she wanted was boo books, books, books, books. Um, but it was a real source of escape and entertainment and learning for her. So I asked my mom a question that we frequently ask our guest, which is when you reflect on your personal life thus far, is there a line of demarcation, an event or a chapter that defines your life before this event and after? And my mom said, of course, there are the big life-changing events like marriage and children and completing her education and all of that, but for her, it would probably be when she learned to sew.

[57:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh. Not my birth, when she learned to sew. So for her 16th birthday, my mom asked for, and actually, and I cannot believe this, received a Sears sewing machine. And she went down to Sears and she learned how to use it. So as I said, reading was a source of freedom and escape for my mom. And sewing became a source of freedom and escape for her, too. As long as she could get fabric, she could dress herself, and she didn't have to rely on my old farmer grandfather to purchase clothing for her. And she could also be of service, which we'll get to in a second. So backing up, my mother attended, I've talked about this a little bit on the pie. I think I've expressly actually told this story before, but enjoy it again.

My mother attended an all-girls Catholic school, and she graduated first in her class, all that reading. Wow. And as valedictorian, my mom was offered a full ride scholarship to the University of Dayton. And the headline that we still have, it's yellowed and falling apart. The headline in the Dayton paper read, High School Senior turns down juicy UD scholarship to go to nursing school. Right when she graduated from high school, she went to nursing school. And the fashion changed, and hemlines went up four inches right at that time. I think it was his Jackie O time, and hemlines went boop. And she set up her sewing machine on her dorm room desk and she raised everybody's hem four inches on all their skirts and all their coats.

She also I've said this on the podcast before, but she never considered taking the scholarship. She said she didn't have a lot of social skills, given her background, that makes sense. And the idea of going to university really scared her. Her parents didn't really prize education. None of her teachers ever offered her any guidance, and not a single person challenged her and said, you can do this. Or maybe they figured out that she, yeah, she was set in her plans to go to get married and go to nursing school. So that's what she aimed for. And then she got pregnant, and then she got pregnant again, and then she did that several more times. And she was finally able to go back to nursing school when I, the youngest of her children, was old enough to start school too. Wow.

[1:00:14] Susan Blackwell: So we've talked about this before, but the difference between concerted cultivation and natural growth. My both of my parents are really children of natural growth. And there weren't a lot of adults around, let's say zero adults around who were um just challenging the notion that this really oh, that's such a spark for me. This this really intelligent young person. That's right. What a brain. That's right. What a brain that this intelligent young person could do more, be more. That's right. They weren't advocating more. And Sidebark, just based on conversations with my mom throughout the years, I think if that mentorship had existed, she would have become a doctor. That is my guess. Yeah. Um, in addition to sewing, my mom possesses several other creative skill sets: crocheting, gardening, baking, cooking, costuming.

And these different forms of creativity are often dictated by the season. In the spring, summer, and fall, gardening, and she really is an expert gardener because of all those years on the farm. Gardening uses so much of her day and time and energy, and other things get pushed to the background. And then when the weather turns colder and the holidays are approaching, my mom is making gifts and cookies and cookie gifts, and usually she has several projects going. And she said that these projects, these acts of creativity, give her a reason to get out of bed in the morning, which I deeply related to. Why would I run such a labor-intensive creativity challenge? These are the things that give me a reason to get up and out of bed in the morning.

And something else that I observe is that creativity and love are so intertwined for me. Some of my closest friends are the people that I've made things with. I feel like this creativity, it brings color to our lives and it provides us a reason for living. That's right. And a reason for engaging with each other.

[1:02:31] Susan Blackwell: Smell you, Nancy Blackwell. I believe so. She said she does it once by the book, and then it's after that it's cross-country. And I was like, Yay, I loved it. I loved it. Um like many of us, my mom said every time she starts a project, she wonders if she will see it to completion. She has started and not finished many things throughout her lifetime. Even the highly competent, amazing maker Nancy Blackwell, there are many things she has not finished in her lifetime. And now in her 80s, she looks at stuff and says, Is this a realistic project? She likes to strike this balance of staying in her comfort zone, executing things that provide some new learning and challenge, but not so much challenge that they're super stressful.

She says she enjoys challenges, especially when they're done. Which again, I was like, I am your child, Nancy Blackwell. Now that I've done it, that was great. Um, my mom has made a lot of clothes and costumes for me in my lifetime. And now her grandniece Kaylee keeps my mom very busy making her anime cosplay costumes and renaissance costumes. And my mom said, Most of the characters, my mom hasn't, my mom wouldn't know a sailor moon from a she's never heard of them. And she's but it doesn't stop her. It doesn't stop her from just like digging in. And because she is her father's daughter, she can also stretch a sewing dollar. Oh she said that fabric has gotten over the years, it's gotten very expensive.

And when she's costuming, for instance, a high school production of Les Miserables, she buys, she goes to the thrift store and she buys a lot of old sheets and towels and tablecloths and blankets and fabric. And those textiles can make wonderful costumes. She said she had a bolt of rotting denim that should have been thrown away, but she ended up like sort of hacking off the rotted parts, washing washing it because she is sanitary. She was a nurse after all. Um, but she made a billion tattered shop aprons for the working poor characters in this high school production of Les Miserables. Oh my god. Nancy Blackwell, she'll stretch a motherfucking dollar. Um, she said, and I want to stitch this into a pillow.

A good costume lives forever because you can repurpose it, you can re-accessorize it, you can let it out, you can take it in, and it can just live on and on forever. And sometimes when she does a production of a high school musical at the high school where I went, which I it's very rural, and I had a graduating class of 87 people, and half of those people went to vocational school, very small. But when she's doing a costume there, she'll be fitting a cast member and she'll say, This costume is older than you are, kid, because she is my mother.

[1:04:05] Susan Blackwell: For a recent high school production of Fiddler on the Roof, for all the men, they all had to have a vest, and they couldn't be store-bought suit vests. They had to be like working men's pogrom vests. So she went to the thrift store, she bought up all the sort of like earth-toned sweatshirts, she turned them inside out, she cut off the sleeves, she cut uh up through the center, she would sew a pleat on the front, sew all the high school teachers are like, Yes. She would sew some high some buttons on it and make them all these little like fiddler on the roof vests. And then with all the leftover sweatshirt sleeves, she made them into cat hammocks for my cousin's rescue cats. So in the cat cage, there are these sleeping hammocks for the cats that they can crawl up into. And she made catalyst. Very useful. Very useful. Nancy Bible's not fucking around. She's not. She's amazing.

[1:06:27] Susan Blackwell: So I asked my mom of all the things she's created so far, what she was the most proud of, which is something we often ask makers. And she said she made her own wedding dress, which was simple, but she was proud of it. But the single most challenging thing was my sister Julie's wedding dress. My mom said it took them forever to figure out the pattern and the bodice, and then to make each layer, and then they took the lace overlay, they divided it amongst a couple of women in the family, and they hand beaded it. Then they brought it back together, they assembled it, and it was a major engineering project to try to figure out the logistics of this very long train that trailed behind my sister as she came down the aisle.

And then it all came up together and with a series of buttons, it bustled for the reception. Oh my gosh. And I gotta tell you, that bucking dress, so I'm sorry, mother, so much profanity. That effing dress is much. It is an architect, it was an architectural feat. That's incredible. Stunning, stunning. Then in the years that followed, out of the wedding dress scraps, my mom made christening gowns for each of my sister Julie's children to be baptized in.

[1:07:43] Susan Blackwell: And each little my uh sister's uh veil had this sort of headband, and each little sculpted rose on my sister's veil was handmade by my mother too. And it's an idea. She was sparked when she was visiting New York and she visited the garment district. I think I can count on uh one maybe maybe on my fingers the times my parents have gotten on a plane to travel. But they were visiting uh New York City, and she took a mental, they wouldn't allow her to take a photo, so she took a mental snapshot and she went home and she made it herself. The headpiece in the veil. Wow. She said she's inclined to look at something and think, I could do that. Let's go home and make that. Which I think, if you're a maker, is an interesting way to live.

If you see a movie you love or a TV show or a painting or a dance piece, whatever the spark is, as long as it's not a perfect replica, all the better. In the words of Stevie Sondheim, anything you do, let it come from you, then it will be new. And I really do think that is true to add the fourth rhyme. People will say to my mom, Oh, I should learn how to sew. And my mom's response is, you have to want it. You have to be motivated. It's like learning a language or an instrument. And here's my mom's creative advice for all of us. Do what you like doing as much as possible. Which I thought was deceptively simple, but useful advice. Do what you really like doing, not what you think you should be doing.

Maybe not even what you trained, what your degree is, you know, is in to do. Do what you like doing now as much as possible. After I went into elementary school, my mom went back to Sinclair Community College in Dayton, Ohio, and she finished her nursing degree. I get very proud when I think about my parents finishing their education. At her graduation, she received her nursing pen that had a quote inscribed by the founder of the school, a man named David Sinclair. It said, Find the need and then endeavor to meet it. My mom thought that was a damn fine guiding principle, whether it applied to someone who needed their hem shortened four inches or an affordable nursing uniform or a renaissance costume or a wedding dress.

And she said she tries not to say no to anyone because there are so few people that have the time and the ability to do what she can do, especially for people who have trouble finding or affording clothes that fit.

[1:10:14] Susan Blackwell: Oh Amy Poeh wrote about her longtime collaborator Tina Faye. Tina shows her love for you by writing for you. And I asked my I shared that quote with my mom and I asked if she thought that one of the ways she shows love for people is by creating for them. And I was certain I knew the answer. And she said, sure. And then it's also my deep insecurity that I'm desperately needy of being loved. Oh, and I was floored by that. Didn't expect that. I did not. I had always thought it was purely her way of expressing love, which is a part of it, but on a deeper level, so much of it was her asking to be loved. When I asked her the question we ask of all of our makers, what's it all for? She said again, just in case I missed it, so someone will love me.

So I want to say a few words about my mother for my mother. Nancy Blackwell was born in 1941 in Dayton, Ohio, and she still lives there, y'all. Her parents, my grandparents, grew and sold flowers, and they lived way, way out there with no indoor plumbing and not a lot to do. My grandfather did the shopping for the family, and he was tight with a dollar. My mother didn't have much in the way of clothing. When my mother was in eighth grade, her teacher notified the parents that every student had to have an angel costume for the school pageant. And my grandmother refused. She thought it was a ridiculous request, and she wouldn't be obliged. And no other adult stepped in to help. So my mom found an old gown.

It had been a hand me down from a wealthy woman my grandmother had worked for as a maid. And my mother used the fabric to make her own angel costume. When my mother was 16, she asked for a sewing machine for her birthday. She started using the machine to make her own clothes on that machine, self-taught. So when I was little little, I shared a bedroom with my brother and with my mother's sewing machine. And when I was in kindergarten, my report card was pretty good. This is what it actually said. Susan is a delight to have in class when she is here. She is absent 50% of the time. We would love to see Susan in school more often. You know what I had to say at five years old? F that S. I wanted to be at home playing at my mother's feet while she sewed at her sewing machine and chatted with me. What could be better than that?

[1:13:02] Susan Blackwell: I've heard stories about other people's mothers who say things like, You're not planning on leaving the house like that, are you? When teenage me would come home to my mother with a sketch on a piece of loose sleeve paper and say, I have an idea for a dress. It's sort of goth, it's got a bat wing sleeve, it's got a wasp waist, it's got a journal skirt, it's like T length. It's got a cow hood, and I'm picturing it with like granny boots and a snood. True. True story. No kid of mine is going out looking like that. My mother immediately digs into how it can be constructed, what fabric might work best to get that bat wing sleeve to drape just so, where we can source snoods in the greater Dayton area.

No judgment, just creativity. At my grandmother's funeral, mom told me that the first time she told her mother that she loved her was when my grandmother was lying unconscious in her hospital bed. They just did not say it to each other. Contrast that with the millions of times my parents have told me that they love me. And I was so curious. How did she learn to do that when she didn't learn it from her parents? She says, I don't know. We just did it. Self-taught. Self-taught. When I think of my mother, I picture her at her sewing machine. She has spent the better portion of her life making sure that anyone who asks has what they need christening dresses, first holy communion dresses, prom dresses, wedding gowns, nursing uniforms, costumes for the local high school musical, Halloween costumes.

Speaking of, when me and my siblings were little, my mom bought cheap remnants of this brown fake fur. It looked like Rolf from the Muppets. And the fabric had this very suspicious smell, which is probably why it was on the dollar a yard table. And she made these hooded footy pajama suits in various sizes. And every Halloween, she would take the suit that fit you the best that year, and she would just swap out the ears of this generic fursuit. So one year you'd be like a weird smelling cat. And then you'd be like a weird smelling rabbit, and then you'd be like a weird smelling puppy. Nancy Blackwell. Thrifty as hell. Pictures is what I need. I need pictures. She's very thrifty, but also very generous.

If you compliment me on a blouse that my mother has made, she will make one for you, but she will never take any money for her sewing. My mother has spent her life making sure we all have our angel costume over and over and over again. But my mother is not an angel. She is a human lady. And like all of us, she is perfectly imperfect. Still in all, how grateful am I that I pulled that Nancy Blackwell card? How lucky that she is mine? And how fortunate am I that I get to say a few words about my mother? And those words are creative, generous, intelligent, warm, loving, loved, love. Nancy Blackwell, y'all. Blackwell. And that is my spark du jour.

[1:16:38] Laura Camien: Such a good spark. I can't wait for Nancy to hear that spark. I really can't. Nancy Blackwell. She's just the best. She's just the best. And she has created more than just beautiful clothing. Sorry to be cheesy.

[1:16:55] Susan Blackwell: Are you talking about me?

[1:16:56] Laura Camien: I am. I am. They did a good job. They did a good job. They did a good job. And again, the thing I'm so fascinated by with both of my parents, and I talked about my dad on the Golden Palace episode and in this the peas, Golden Palace, is how did these people coming from I mean, imagine if you I can't even imagine. But isn't it a pendulum swing? Like she wasn't given those things, and she has made a life of giving those things.

[1:17:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and I think there are many people who didn't have those things and could have or do become embittered. They become a lot of things that aren't, you know, great for raising kids and other things. And I just think, what alchemy occurred.

[1:17:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:17:50] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it?

[1:17:51] Laura Camien: Well, I make that piece, I make that spark for my mom, but also I feel like we make and make and make. We make as an act of love. We take the hard things that we've been through, because life is sometimes awesome and sometimes awesome. And if you're gonna if you have to live through it, why not make something out of it? How lucky we are to be makers so that we can whatever our angel costume is make something out of it.

[1:18:18] Susan Blackwell: Amen to that. Listen. That's a beautiful spark, Blackwell.

[1:18:22] Laura Camien: Oh, came in. I feel like I really put everybody through the ringer washing machine. But we went together, and that's what matters. I just want to say before we wrap this baby up that uh we have had an extraordinary time with the participants in the Sparkfile New Year 2020 Creativity Workshop and live podcasts. Like what a like just truly that collective of people, what a basket full of miracles that they're looking at their faces, right now. I know their beautiful faces. So I just want to thank them for being sparks to us as well. But that's it. We hope that all of this, whatever this was, put another bunch of sparks in your spark spark file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, won't you email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe, rate, five star review it. If you like this podcast, what's that voice? If you like this podcast, share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, in the words of Scandal's 1982 hit song. Goodbye to you. Goodbye to you. I didn't like that on that one. That's nice. Woo!

[1:19:49] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You gotta pick a low it.

[1:20:00] Laura Camien: Scarf.

[1:20:28] Susan Blackwell: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:20:37] Laura Camien: Sparkfire.

[1:20:38] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files.

[1:20:42] Laura Camien: Spark, let's open up the sparkfiles. We want to extend special thanks to Ryan Field and Garrett for providing the original music to the piece about my mom entitled Sewing Machine. We also want to thank our live hype man, Jack D'Amelio, everyone at Mark Fisher Fitness, Mark Fisher, Michael Keeler, Andrew Cole, the amazing Denise Stumper, and special thanks to the attendees of the Sparkfile New Year 2020 Creativity Workshop and Live Podcast. You are all truly a shower of sparks.