This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I want to be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Sparks File where we believe.

[0:40] Laura Camien: I'm gonna just where we believe in hard H's.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: Hard aspirin H's.

[0:46] Laura Camien: That everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:50] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:52] Laura Camien: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:53] Susan Blackwell: If you are an OG listener, welcome back, Sparky.

[0:56] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, know that all are welcome here.

[1:01] Susan Blackwell: Whether you have put your creativity on pause during this time, or if you've clung to it like a lifeline.

[1:07] Laura Camien: Either way, welcome.

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: But you may be asking yourself, well, what exactly what exactly is a spark file?

[1:13] Laura Camien: Where do I get one?

[1:15] Susan Blackwell: What do I file in it?

[1:16] Laura Camien: These are such good questions.

[1:18] Susan Blackwell: And we have got answers.

[1:25] Laura Camien: Here's the deal.

[1:26] Susan Blackwell: We are makers, we make all kinds of things.

[1:28] Laura Camien: And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now.

[1:38] Susan Blackwell: But don't despair because we're here for you, and we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:48] Laura Camien: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: Or a daily creative habit that gets us one step closer to completing our projects and mastering our talents.

[2:05] Laura Camien: Ah, I love it.

[2:07] Susan Blackwell: Or a series of questions designed to make you think a little more deeply about the choices you make every day.

[2:15] Laura Camien: Oh, every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks.

[2:21] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:24] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you just might let us get into your head for the next couple of hours.

[2:29] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up some spark file.

[2:35] Laura Camien: Hi, hi, Suze.

[2:37] Susan Blackwell: It's our favorite day of the week.

[2:39] Laura Camien: It's podcast day.

[2:41] Susan Blackwell: You know, I love it.

[2:42] Laura Camien: And we I'll speak for myself.

[2:44] Susan Blackwell: Okay, I've had a little bit of caffeine.

[2:47] Laura Camien: It seems like a beer, but it's actually caffeine.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: Big deal.

[2:50] Laura Camien: And uh we've also spent the morning and part of the afternoon with the Sparkfile Select group creativity coaching.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: Ugh, I love that group of human beings.

[3:03] Laura Camien: What I I feel I said today, I was like, I don't mean this to be self-aggrandizing because I know Laura and I made the program, but I feel so lucky to be with this group of people.

[3:17] Susan Blackwell: My God, they're spectacular.

[3:19] Laura Camien: Suze, I want to like I don't want to reveal this secret to them because it seems as though they have gathered in this place for us to help them.

[3:31] Susan Blackwell: And yet, oh my god, we are reaping the benefits.

[3:36] Laura Camien: It is us who have been gifted with the pleasure of their company, watching them really expand and grow and share their work.

[3:47] Susan Blackwell: It's just like it just lights us up, I think.

[3:52] Laura Camien: The risks these people are taking and they're sharing the vulnerability and the God, all the different kinds of creative projects that are coming out of it.

[4:04] Susan Blackwell: It blows my mind.

[4:07] Laura Camien: And again, I say I feel like I am a delivery room nurse, and every time this little creative baby pops out, I burst into tears.

[4:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:17] Laura Camien: It's it's it's pretty astonishing.

[4:20] Susan Blackwell: It's astonishing to watch, you know, uh a piece of paper that was blank that had nothing, is now suddenly filled with ideas and concepts and things that are being literally brought to life.

[4:34] Laura Camien: Love it, love it.

[4:36] Susan Blackwell: Love pretty great.

[4:36] Laura Camien: So I'm coming off, we're both coming off of that.

[4:39] Susan Blackwell: So I'm a little jazzed.

[4:41] Laura Camien: I'm a little jazzed up.

[4:43] Susan Blackwell: Camps, um, I had this spark idea that I just want to cast out.

[4:48] Laura Camien: It's a little baby spark.

[4:49] Susan Blackwell: I want to cast it out into the sparkosphere.

[4:51] Laura Camien: And if anybody wants to make it or write it or script it or pitch it, go on and do it.

[4:55] Susan Blackwell: Okay, you ready?

[4:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'm ready.

[4:58] Susan Blackwell: This just came to me the other day.

[4:59] Laura Camien: Okay, so you know that as I've discussed on the podcast before, and I'm very, I'm just very thoughtful about when and around whom I say this, but I have been privileged to have a very good time during this pandemic.

[5:19] Susan Blackwell: Not mean and not to say that I've like been partying or something, just meaning that I've had the privilege of being able to stay safe, to stay healthy.

[5:28] Laura Camien: Unlike many people, I haven't I've experienced some loss, but I mean, some people have experienced unthinkable, tremendous loss.

[5:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:37] Laura Camien: And from loss of yes, work that they love to human beings.

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:42] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[5:43] Susan Blackwell: So much different.

[5:44] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[5:45] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:46] Laura Camien: So I, you know, we have used this time to continue to do work that we love with people that we adore and to um have really deep, meaningful connections with each other and our clients.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: And I mean, really, so when people like harsh on Zoom, I'm like, wow, I this little introvert loves it because I can be have these deep connected moments with people.

[6:23] Laura Camien: And then I have my time to myself, which I I also really adore.

[6:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[6:28] Laura Camien: And it's it's just been lovely.

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: And and Suze, we can't discount the fact that, you know, creativity helping all of us complete that stress cycle, as you taught all of us in that spark.

[6:40] Laura Camien: And so I don't think it's a coincidence that you know, we turned our focus almost entirely on being creative, helping others be creative, and you know, the connections that we make in that process.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: So it doesn't surprise me that ultimately, you know, positive feelings and positive results have come from that.

[7:02] Laura Camien: So, yeah, so that's where I'm at.

[7:04] Susan Blackwell: And I was just thinking about that the other day.

[7:06] Laura Camien: As we sort of get vaccinated and start to move back out into the world, and I know we'll continue to have conversations about what that means and navigating that transition, because I do think it's going to be something to navigate, even if you've really been looking forward to a return to a new reality where there's more hugging involved and more gathering of people.

[7:27] Susan Blackwell: It's still going to be a transition for sure.

[7:30] Laura Camien: And I think about it when uh I, when I was in graduate school, I've told you this story before, but I broke both my arms in one fall and spent the summer with my arms in casts.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: Now I have kind of like little bony baby bird arms to begin with.

[7:46] Laura Camien: But at the end of that summer, when they took those casts off, number one, stink town, but number two, my little arms had atrophied so much that they were just these, and the skin was so when they take the cast off, they send you straight over to a sink and they're like, go ahead and take time and just slow it's gonna be very tender, but like you're gonna want to wash off all of that crud.

[8:11] Susan Blackwell: Just like it's really gross.

[8:13] Laura Camien: Sorry, kids.

[8:14] Susan Blackwell: I see your face right now and you're like, that's not cute.

[8:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[8:16] Susan Blackwell: And guess what?

[8:17] Laura Camien: It really smelled like it looked.

[8:19] Susan Blackwell: So I was still on stink town.

[8:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: But I will tell you when that water hits your little skin like for the first time in months, and your little atrophied arm.

[8:33] Laura Camien: I was like, is that what it's gonna be like a little bit to go out for the first time or be in a crowd for the first time?

[8:40] Susan Blackwell: Maybe I don't know.

[8:41] Laura Camien: But so I was thinking about all of this, and I was thinking about how I've been tucked away on the side of a mountain, you know, having this really rich, like deeply, deeply rich connections with people.

[8:55] Susan Blackwell: And of course, I'm lucky to have um love and companionship with Nathan.

[9:00] Laura Camien: I do not take that for granted.

[9:01] Susan Blackwell: And POTUS and Kitty, I do not take them for granted.

[9:05] Laura Camien: And so I get touch and stuff like that.

[9:08] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[9:09] Laura Camien: And then I thought about so here's here's the spark.

[9:13] Susan Blackwell: This is a long way to grandma's spark.

[9:16] Laura Camien: Prelude to a spark.

[9:17] Susan Blackwell: Prelude to a spark.

[9:18] Laura Camien: So what if there's like an episode?

[9:21] Susan Blackwell: This could be a film, this could be an episode of Black Mirror.

[9:23] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[9:24] Susan Blackwell: But it's you're just basically seeing somebody like me, their pandemic reality, where I'm sort of just like a happy introvert.

[9:33] Laura Camien: I'm on, I'm working on Zoom, I'm talking to clients, I'm talking to my business partner.

[9:38] Susan Blackwell: I am, you know, getting my entertainment through my Netflix and my streaming services.

[9:45] Laura Camien: I am voxering.

[9:47] Susan Blackwell: We voxer with clients all day.

[9:48] Laura Camien: Like I'm having all of this, you know, my the care, the my proxy, the character is having all of this like super meaningful engagement.

[9:57] Susan Blackwell: And then the twist is that like you open a door and you realize this person is the last person on earth, and it was all virtual reality.

[10:11] Laura Camien: That is totally black mirror.

[10:13] Susan Blackwell: It was all AI generated.

[10:15] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[10:17] Susan Blackwell: All like your your conversations with your therapist and your conversations with your clients and your business partner and your mom and made it all your grandkids.

[10:26] Laura Camien: It's all being generated like by a supercomputer, and you're really the last person on earth.

[10:31] Susan Blackwell: But that human is real.

[10:33] Laura Camien: That person was real.

[10:35] Susan Blackwell: It's very Twilight Zone.

[10:36] Laura Camien: Yes, the last.

[10:38] Susan Blackwell: Yes, it is.

[10:39] Laura Camien: And then you break your glasses and all you have all this books.

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: That's Twilight Zone.

[10:43] Laura Camien: That's just a ripoff.

[10:44] Susan Blackwell: Um that's my I missed that last time.

[10:48] Laura Camien: Remember that episode of Twilight Zone where he was the last man on Earth and he was surrounded by books, and he was just like, books, books, books.

[10:55] Susan Blackwell: I'll fill my time with books.

[10:57] Laura Camien: And then his glasses break.

[11:00] Susan Blackwell: No, I've not seen that.

[11:03] Laura Camien: Spoiler alert.

[11:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[11:05] Laura Camien: A 50-year-old episode of a television show.

[11:08] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[11:09] Laura Camien: If you haven't watched it yet, run.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: Don't want Burgess Meredith, I think, maybe.

[11:15] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[11:16] Susan Blackwell: I I remember one about like it getting um hotter and hotter and hotter on Earth.

[11:23] Laura Camien: And like the because the Earth had sort of like gotten out of its orbit.

[11:28] Susan Blackwell: And um, so it was getting like further and further from the sun.

[11:31] Laura Camien: So with each, you know, with each cycle, it was getting further away.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: No, the other way around.

[11:36] Laura Camien: It was getting closer and closer and closer to the sun.

[11:39] Susan Blackwell: And it was gonna burn up.

[11:40] Laura Camien: And then the person wakes up from the dream, and they're like under seven layers of blankets because the reverse was actually true.

[11:50] Susan Blackwell: They were getting further and further and further adrifting away from the signs.

[11:59] Laura Camien: Oh, Twilight Zone.

[12:00] Susan Blackwell: It's been another episode of the Sparks File Podcast.

[12:06] Laura Camien: Two oldies bagoonies.

[12:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, there we go.

[12:09] Laura Camien: Anyway, that's right.

[12:11] Susan Blackwell: Our two sparks are two episodes of Twilight Zone.

[12:14] Laura Camien: Um, all right, enough.

[12:16] Susan Blackwell: Shall we?

[12:17] Laura Camien: Is there anything any next one?

[12:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, could there be anything fresher?

[12:20] Laura Camien: Would we talk about anything fresher?

[12:22] Susan Blackwell: 70-year old episodes of television shows.

[12:27] Laura Camien: Yes, I'm ready for some sparks.

[12:29] Susan Blackwell: Do you want to go first?

[12:31] Laura Camien: I will crack into a fresh spark for you, Cam.

[12:35] Susan Blackwell: Cams, I will tell you, when I dove into the Sparks, I thought I knew where it was headed.

[12:40] Laura Camien: Oh, and then I took a left toyina Albuquerque.

[12:45] Susan Blackwell: I took a left toy to Sparkbuker, but I went with it, and I'm glad that I did because it took me so many unexpected places.

[12:53] Laura Camien: Nice.

[12:54] Susan Blackwell: And my entire Sparks this week is titled with one tiny word.

[13:01] Laura Camien: And that word is why.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: What?

[13:08] Laura Camien: I wanted to use the pronunciation at the top.

[13:11] Susan Blackwell: Why?

[13:12] Laura Camien: Why is the name of your spark?

[13:15] Susan Blackwell: The name of my spark is why, Cam's.

[13:18] Laura Camien: Who?

[13:19] Susan Blackwell: Why?

[13:20] Laura Camien: And that's one of those words when you look at it and say it a lot, it totally starts to lose its meaning.

[13:27] Susan Blackwell: Why, why, why, why?

[13:29] Laura Camien: It's so weird.

[13:30] Susan Blackwell: That is a weird fucking word.

[13:32] Laura Camien: W-h-y.

[13:33] Susan Blackwell: Why?

[13:34] Laura Camien: Why?

[13:34] Susan Blackwell: Three little letters, and why?

[13:37] Laura Camien: I was as I was writing the spark and researching the spark, I was like, it is as small as a key, and if it's used correctly, as powerful.

[13:47] Susan Blackwell: Why?

[13:47] Laura Camien: Oh.

[13:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh, boom.

[13:50] Laura Camien: You didn't expect that one.

[13:54] Susan Blackwell: Um so I remember the first time I was really exposed to the power of the word why.

[14:01] Susan Blackwell: I was a graduate student, and one of our teachers did this exercise with us, and I'm gonna do it with you now, Cam. Um, he asked us why we wanted to study acting. And I'm gonna I am gonna do this with you, Camps. And I just want to point out to listeners, what we're about to do is not scripted. I'm totally putting Laura Cammy right on the spot. Um she's brilliant, and I actually think this is gonna be quite awesome. You can take it. I trust you. Um, Cams, I have a question for you. Uh-huh. Why why do you want to make the Sparks File? The business, the courses, the podcast why do you want to make the Sparks File? Why do you want to create the Sparks File?

[14:45] Laura Camien: I want to create the Sparks File because I want to I want to help myself and other people feel the exhilaration and power of creativity and and uh what it feels like for them to get their ideas out of their minds and into the world.

[15:12] Susan Blackwell: Great. And why do you want to do that?

[15:16] Laura Camien: I believe that we will be happier people by doing that. Whether people do it professionally or they do it as hobbies and habits that just enrich their lives, I think that it makes us um happier, more fulfilled to be uh self-expressed.

[15:43] Susan Blackwell: And why does that matter?

[15:48] Laura Camien: Well, on the really big scale, I'm embarrassed to say this.

[15:51] Susan Blackwell: Say it.

[15:52] Laura Camien: Go big, go big or go home.

[15:54] Susan Blackwell: Get out of here, kid.

[15:56] Laura Camien: I because if pe I believe that if people are not, when people are not self-expressed, I believe that things fester inside of them. Anger and resentment and sadness and shame. And um I think that by creating and expressing ourselves, we free ourselves from a lot of many negative emotions.

[16:26] Susan Blackwell: And why does that matter?

[16:30] Laura Camien: I can see why I see where this is going, Suze. Um I think it matters because again, on a very large scale, I think it affects the way we treat each other as human beings. I think hurt people hurt people. I think that angry people do angry and violent things. I think that we can help to avoid some of the pain and anguish that is going on in the world by starting local, starting with our own individual selves and being more self-expressed as individuals again can keep those feelings from festering and keep it from leading to pain and anguish on a large scale.

[17:21] Susan Blackwell: And why does that matter?

[17:24] Laura Camien: It matters because I want to live in a better world. I want to live in a world where people are kinder to themselves and to each other, where people um see and appreciate differences and can um contemplate what it is like to walk in other people's shoes and have empathy for each other.

[17:56] Susan Blackwell: So Cam's, yeah, why do you want to create the Sparks File?

[18:01] Laura Camien: Because I want to make the world a better place, Suze. I want to make the world a better place.

[18:07] Susan Blackwell: There you go. That's it, baby. That's it, right there. You want to make the Sparks File because you want to make the world a better place.

[18:18] Laura Camien: I want to make the world a better place.

[18:20] Susan Blackwell: Starting local, act uh what is it? What's that phrase? Um act think local, act local.

[18:27] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[18:28] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. Act local.

[18:30] Laura Camien: That's right.

[18:32] Susan Blackwell: In terms of creativity.

[18:34] Laura Camien: That's right.

[18:35] Susan Blackwell: So that's one of the powers. Cam's just beautifully demonstrated. And thank you for going on that little journey with me.

[18:43] Laura Camien: You betcha. Happy to.

[18:44] Susan Blackwell: Um, I and again, she did it so beautifully that you might think that that was prepared, but I totally sprang that on. I promise you, it was not.

[18:51] Laura Camien: It was not, and Susan's gonna hear about it.

[18:56] Susan Blackwell: Kidding. I the minute I push pause on this recording.

[19:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:02] Susan Blackwell: Oh but you just demonstrated is one of the powers of why, and why why can be a key that can turn and swing open doors of understanding and problem solving and creativity. So I had a very similar experience when I volunteered to do this in my graduate school acting class.

[19:25] Laura Camien: And uh, why do you want to be an actor?

[19:28] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, Because I, you know, I started very like, because I think I'm really good at it, and because I I want to be and but why? But why does that matter? Why, why, why? And I got all the way to and I got all the way to because I want to make the world a better place. You know, if you keep peeling back the layers. And I'm sure there's other good answers to that, but that's where Cam's and I seem to have arrived. Um, related to this, another spark for this why spark was an article from the New York Times by a dude I've actually talked about before in our workshops and maybe even on this podcast, and that's a name you're right, you're gonna recognize this name, Charles Doohig.

[20:13] Susan Blackwell: So Charles wrote an article for the Times called How Asking Five Questions Allowed Me to Eat Dinner with My Kids. And I was like, Well, that is the most awesome clickbaity uh title of an article. How asking five questions allowed me to eat dinner with my kids. Camps, spoiler alert, can you guess what five questions Chuck asked that allowed him to eat dinner with his kids?

[20:40] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[20:47] Susan Blackwell: Do you really want to be? Why, why, why, and why?

[20:53] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[20:54] Susan Blackwell: Five questions. Like, why can't we get to the dinner table together on time? Yep. What you just did. You just did it. So here's the story. Okay. Some years back, Charles Doohig was working on this book about productivity. And I just want to say, productivity is a word that I find a little bit triggering. As we've discussed before on this very podcast, I think that we as a culture have been brainwashed to believe that productivity is this hallowed ongoing goal, like the ultimate goal to strive for. That's what we have been so rewarded for being productive. And I think it serves the capitalist system we live in. So productivity has been sort of canonized. But in a second, we're going to talk about another definition that I personally find more useful.

Great. But where was I? So Charles Doohig was working on this book about the secrets of productivity. And he claims that his hidden motivation was this to figure out how to eat dinner with his wife and his two sons, who were seven and four at the time the article was written. He and his wife both had these demanding jobs, and their family had found it nearly impossible to consistently sit down and have dinner together.

[22:01] Susan Blackwell: Every morning they would announce their intentions to leave work early enough so that they could all eat together. But then one thing would lead to another and life would happen, and they would get held up at work, and then the babysitter would call and say that the kids were starving, and then snacks were being handed out and on and on until they were not sitting down to eat dinner together and lather and rinse and repeat. So Charles Doohig says he eventually found a solution to their dinner time dilemma in an unlikely place, a Toyota factory that opened in Fremont, California in the 1980s. So some old ass Toyota factory in Fremont, California. According to Doohig, the factory was guided by a management philosophy known as the Toyota Production System, which at its core, holds that even the most complex problems have simple causes if you know how to look for them.

[22:52] Laura Camien: That philosophy is known as the five whys.

[22:57] Susan Blackwell: And here's how it works. Ready? You simply keep asking why. So for the Doohiggs, this is how it played out. They began by identifying the problem. We never managed to have dinner together. And then they explored at the most surface level why. And on the most surface level, it's because Charles and his wife always got home later than they expected. And then came the next why. Why were we getting home so late? The answer was that although they intended to leave the office by five, they often found it impossible to walk away from their desks because there were so many tasks that they had ignored during the day, which prompted the next why. Why had they ignored all these tasks? So it turns out, inevitably, they arrived at work each morning just in time for their first meetings to begin.

So rather than deal with like unread emails, et cetera, they put them aside until later in the day. And then when they finally got to them, in addition to those ones they hadn't dealt with in the morning, there were new emails and tasks that demanded their attention. Then comes the next why. Why were they arriving at work right before their first meetings rather than a little bit earlier? Because although they always intended to leave the house at 8 a.m. to get the kids to school, they usually ran late and they didn't get out the door until around 8:20 or so. And finally, the fifth why. Why were they leaving the house later than they planned? Because it took so long to get the kids dressed in the morning that they always left later than they had expected.

So to recap, they began by identifying the problem, despite their declared intentions. They weren't managing to have dinner together as a family. And then by tracking through the five whys, they found their root cause. Their kids were taking too long to get dressed in the morning. Blame it on the kids, Charles Doohig. They're too little to read the New York Times and defend themselves. So Duhick said that before conducting this exercise, he would have, I believe this too. He said he would have never suspected that there was a connection between their morning routines and their evening meal. But once they took the time to ask why after why after why after why after why, it was clear what needed to change.

If they could convince their kids to get dressed earlier, they could make it out the door faster. And in turn, they would have time to get to their desk to deal with admin work before the day started getting crazy. And then they would be able to leave work a little earlier, make it home in time, and have dinner together. So they instituted a new family rule. Each night before going to bed, the kids laid out their clothes for the next day, and then they got dressed as soon as they woke up. So in this scenario, the five whys is this process of continually asking questions until you get to the root cause and getting closer and closer and closer to the core of the problem until you understand what's really going on.

[25:51] Laura Camien: Cammian, I read this and I was like, this smells right to me. There's I was like, this smells useful to me. Do you have any thoughts swirling around in your head over there as I say all this to you?

[26:04] Laura Camien: Well, one thing popped up when you know, a few weeks ago we talked about the upper limit problem. And we talked about like one of the ways we keep ourselves from experiencing, you know, the expansion into greater and greater things is by blaming and focusing on like the blame of something. And so as you were talking about these whys, I thought, like, wow, you know, dedicating yourself to the practice of asking why and why and why and why could also help to alleviate some of the like just getting fixated on a thing and blaming it for why you're not having dinner. You know what I mean? Why you're not having dinner with your family or you're why you're not creating, why you're not getting something done.

Um keep asking the whys until you get to something that is within your control, that is something that you can do. So we I I was just I was just over here thinking about how it could be beneficial in so many ways. Um, but one of which is to not it kind of doesn't allow us to get stuck in the blame if we keep asking a why.

[27:13] Susan Blackwell: Amazing. I I as you were saying that, I was like, huh, I wonder if this could sort of take the teeth out of certain kinds of conflict. When you know what I mean? If if you that's right, like you're saying, like if you're tracking back to what is something that I am at cause for or I am responsible for, yeah, instead of just being like that person is making me miserable. With that, that's right. Or like my spouse can't get home in time for dinner and we can't do this thing. When in actuality, you go all the way back and you you realize like, oh, it the morning is the issue.

[27:51] Susan Blackwell: And if we both do this thing the night before, we can play a part in making a difference to achieve the goal, the mutual goal that we want.

[28:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:02] Susan Blackwell: Just not to jump to um, what do we make of it? But next time we're having a real conundrum in our business, I think it'd be fun to run the five whys.

[28:11] Laura Camien: Yes.

[28:12] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[28:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:13] Susan Blackwell: We're just like, uh, this, this, this is this is a pickle. Like, what can we might it might be interesting?

[28:20] Laura Camien: That's right.

[28:21] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah. So that's great. To recap, Doohig says that the five whys is a process of continually asking these questions until you get to the root cause and understand what's really going on.

[28:32] Laura Camien: And he says that this method has helped managers eliminate waste, aided executives in figuring out what projects to pursue and which to discard, and helped children understand how to analyze problems and find solutions and assisted teachers in creating environments where even underperforming students can succeed.

[28:51] Susan Blackwell: And I'll add to this, I think it would be useful, could be useful to creatives like you and me and all you little sparkies out there listening. If there's something in your creative process that's not working for you, the five whys might help you get to the bottom of the root cause. Like if you have every intention of being a stand-up comic, and for some reason you're not making it up, you know, night after night after night, like getting it's just digging, digging, digging. And find out what's really going on.

[29:22] Laura Camien: And it could be something that you would not have connected in your mind. You know what I mean?

[29:28] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah. Uh as I've said before on other episodes of this podcast, and I said earlier, I have over time developed a little bit of an allergic reaction to the word productivity. But this next bit that Charles Doohig wrote actually spoke to me. He's he said, at the center of the five whys, the reason it's so effective is a basic insight. Productivity means different things to different people. But at its core, it's about thinking a little more deeply about the choices we make every day. Productivity isn't about running faster or pushing yourself harder. Word, but rather about working smarter and paying a bit more attention to what is really going on.

[30:18] Laura Camien: That to me seems more like mindfulness, but I'm like, if you say so, that helps me make peace with the word productivity.

[30:25] Susan Blackwell: That's right. It also reminds me of um just last week when we talked about um or two weeks ago when we talked about the attention economy, that we are in choice about where we put our energy and our time. And so if we're like, oh, I'm not getting any of my writing done, but you're I look at my phone and it is telling me that I just spent five hours a day on average on my phone. This is information that that does affect your productivity. That you, you know, it's fine. You you're it's just the awareness of like you've made that choice about what I tell you is more important.

[31:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[31:08] Susan Blackwell: Can I tell just tell you how every time I look at my after we had that conversation on the podcast, every time I look at my phone now, I have this awareness. It's not, I'm not mean to myself about it, but I'm just like, if I'm just sort of like, how much of this are you gonna give to them? How much of this are you gonna give to them? How much of your attention are you gonna give to this? And it minimizes my time on the phone because I'm like, blip bloop, that's enough. You've gotten enough of me.

[31:41] Laura Camien: That's right. Go track somebody else.

[31:45] Susan Blackwell: I mean, yeah. And, you know, uh, for some people, they may get more out of it than we do. And they might be like, nope, this is the best use of my time. This is how I want to spend it. Okay. But for most of us, it is it is drawing us in. And without that awareness, you know, it is it is our brain is, you know, sending our body chemicals and um making us feel certain ways that that we actually can walk away from.

[32:14] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:15] Susan Blackwell: I like that was a gift. You gave me a gift. Thank you for that. I love that spark. Um thanks. But now back back to the why. Back to this spark. This part. Don't get it. Jealous spark. You're also very pretty, Sparks.

[32:29] Laura Camien: So by the end of the article, Charles Doohig claimed that he and his wife made a game with their kids where they would choose their outfits and lay out their clothing before they fell asleep at night, and that they were dressed every morning by 7:30. And that small shift had a profound impact. Calmer mornings, prompt departures, home from work earlier, and dinner as a family at least three times per week. And I'm like, that's pretty great. I think that is, I would call that a win, Charles Doohig.

[33:01] Susan Blackwell: I am laughing about like, I wonder how many things are affected by our clothing. I remember when um when I was trying to like walk or run in the morning, and now I'm more free about like the time of day. It doesn't matter to me. And and so I've like given myself that gift. But at the time, it was very much like it's in the morning or it's nothing at all. And I would get up in the morning and I'll be damned if I did not have my sports bra. That specific thing, sports bra, ready to go. If I had to scramble to look for where's my sports bra. Oh, is it in the washer? Is it in the not gonna happen? And so I realized um, I didn't realize I was using the five whys, but by, you know, tracing it back to that, it was like, holy crap, this one thing is, you know, this this entire plan is make or break on this one element. I need one clean fucking sports bra. That's all I need. At an arm's reach.

[34:08] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[34:09] Susan Blackwell: Um, he concluded the article by saying productivity isn't every family's goal, but understanding how to analyze problems by drilling down to their roots can go a long way toward making life easier. So, yes, sports bra and a little side spark on top of that, Cam, this actually leads me to something I've been doing in my life. I don't think I've talked about it on the podcast. I know we've talked about it privately, but my version of laying out my clothes the night before is this. It's from a book called Organize Tomorrow Today by Dr. Jason Selk and Tom Bartow. And so my problem that I was trying to address is that the stress that I was feeling outside of work hours, like the inability to turn it off and to have relax, like much needed relaxation time was really making me a little cuckoo.

And I just had these perseverating thoughts about what wasn't getting done and worry about what might be falling through the cracks. So to proverbially lay out my clothes the night before, every afternoon, uh, I would say starting around maybe like two, I take a pre-printed avery label and I stick it into my journal. And it has, I write the following day's date, and then it says it's pre-printed. I made a little thing in Canva and it says three most important. So for instance, it will say like May 14's three most important. So the tomorrow's dates, three most important. And below that, I list out the three most important things I must complete the following morning. And then right below that, I list one thing that I absolutely is non-negotiable that has to be done that next day.

So the three most important things I'm gonna do the next day, and then one that I absolutely must get done. And that's it. And I then give myself, like you were saying, the gift of doing them in whatever order I want the next day. And I can fill in around them by doing my other little to-dozies or resting or whatever. But by making that list before I shut down my brain for the day, it allows me to rest during my downtime.

[36:18] Laura Camien: Yes.

[36:18] Susan Blackwell: And I also believe, and we've talked about this, that while my brain is resting or dreaming, etc., I also think that it's very quietly, not in a sort of a perseverating way, but like very quietly deep in the background, it's starting to solve around tomorrow's three most important things in this very peaceful way. So for me, I've reframed this a bit, and it's less about productivity and it's more about peace.

[36:44] Laura Camien: So I just want to offer you.

[36:46] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I like that spark.

[36:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:48] Susan Blackwell: I like that. So it isn't about like um what I have to do, do do do. It's like, what can I gift myself in order to have some time of peace?

[37:00] Laura Camien: Yes.

[37:01] Susan Blackwell: Um and rest, which is so different and so nice. We've talked about this before, I think in our classes. I don't know, maybe we've talked about on the podcast, but the idea of the parking lot where it's like it's almost taking those to dozies and putting them in a parking lot overnight. They're like, go in the parking garage, you're gonna be safe there. There's good security, you don't have to worry about a break in. Yep. You're not going anywhere, just park it so that the mind can be at peace.

[37:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:28] Susan Blackwell: So, but back to the spark at hand, the why. Hi. In her excellent book, The Art of Gathering, which was a spark sent our way by the great Celia Keenan-Bolger. Thank you, Celia.

[37:42] Laura Camien: Celia, thank you.

[37:44] Susan Blackwell: Oh, author Priya Parker encourages people to really consider why they are gathering, to consider the purpose of a gathering at its deepest root level. And which is, you know, if you're just like, oh, we're having the birthday party, what are the ones a birthday party? When's a kid's birthday party? What we do, because that's what we do. We just need to do it.

[38:06] Laura Camien: So familiar, yeah.

[38:08] Susan Blackwell: It's it's another to-do thing. But Priya says, think back to the last several gatherings you hosted or attended, a networking event, a book club, a volunteer training. If I were to ask you or your host the purpose behind each of those gatherings, I wouldn't be surprised to hear what I often do in my work, what you were supposed to do at the gathering. That networking night, you might tell me, was intended to help people in similar fields meet one another. The book club was organized to get us to read a book together. The volunteer training was arranged to train volunteers. Priya goes on to say, When we gather, we often make the mistake of conflicting category with purpose. We outsource our decisions and our assumptions about our gatherings to people, formats, and contexts that are not our own.

We get lulled into the false belief that knowing the category of the gathering, the board meeting, workshop, birthday party, town hall, will be instructive to designing it. But we often choose the template and the activities and structure that go along with it before we're clear on our purpose.

[39:09] Laura Camien: She then says, when we don't examine the deeper assumptions behind why we gather, we end up skipping too quickly to replicating old stay formats of gathering. And we forego the possibility of creating something memorable, even transformative.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: And I'll just add wildly creative.

[39:29] Laura Camien: Yes.

[39:30] Susan Blackwell: Like every, you know, it's an opportunity for creativity. And we're just sort of like, okay, we'll get the sheet cake from Costco. We'll get that, you know, like we just go to the what we've done before, what our moms did. And you know, tradition is one thing, but I think what she's talking about is the potential of making something really transformative. Suze, I think that even applies to weekly meetings. You know, oh, if you have a job where you have these weekly meetings, and sometimes you're like, frankly, we don't need to meet today. We, you know, we could relieve ourselves of this unless we have some greater purpose that we, you know, that we could communicate to each other. Why don't we skip it? But there's so much resistance to that. There's so much like, but this is what we do. We get together in a room and we This is what we do. And this is how we do it.

[40:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:22] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. So to your point, Priya says, before you gather, ask yourself, why is this gathering? Why is this gathering different from all my other gatherings? Why is it different from other people's gatherings of the same general type? What is this that other gatherings aren't? And she again encourages taking the time for the deeper dive. She says, drill, baby, drill. Take the reasons you think you are gathering because it's our departmental Monday morning meeting. Right. Because it's a family tradition to barbecue at the lake and keep drilling below them. Ask why you're doing it. And every time you get to another deeper reason, ask why again. Keep asking why until you hit a belief or a value. That is the power of asking why, why, why, why, why, baby camps?

[41:14] Laura Camien: Why?

[41:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So good. It's it's as I did the spark. This is where I was like, oh, I thought it was gonna be one thing. Uh-huh. And then as I got into it, I realized how pervasive and how powerful this concept of why is. And it's um, it really is about that like drilling down, or however you want to look at it, it could be thought of as like up, up, up, up, up, like, what is the highest purpose that we're striving for?

[41:48] Susan Blackwell: Before I go any further, I'm gonna do a whole separate spark on the art of gathering. It is an unbelievably well-written book.

[41:56] Laura Camien: Are you like, wait, I'm gonna do it?

[41:57] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I just don't look crossing.

[41:59] Laura Camien: No, because you I had heard you talk about that book before.

[42:02] Susan Blackwell: And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna take that off of my spark file.

[42:07] Laura Camien: I mean, not that I'm not sparked by it, but I just had an awareness of like you're sparking on that.

[42:13] Susan Blackwell: So I can't wait to hear your.

[42:18] Laura Camien: It is so beautifully researched and written.

[42:22] Susan Blackwell: And the way that she has made it um applicable to her thoughts are oh my god, it's so good.

[42:30] Laura Camien: Like maybe after your spark, are you saying I might spark back at you?

[42:34] Susan Blackwell: Spark back and spark baby.

[42:35] Laura Camien: Okay.

[42:36] Susan Blackwell: It's spark off.

[42:38] Laura Camien: It's really it's a really good book.

[42:41] Susan Blackwell: And I'll tell you we'll get into it deeper, but I was like, oh, this is going to make all of our teaching and coaching better too.

[42:49] Laura Camien: Oh just for thoughtfulness.

[42:51] Susan Blackwell: It's so good. It's so so so so smooth. Love anyway. Love it. Love it.

[42:55] Laura Camien: And like just sparks on sparks over here.

[42:58] Susan Blackwell: But you know who's really good at that deep contemplative work around event planning and meetings and all of that, making it special?

[43:12] Laura Camien: Tom Thomas Schulteis.

[43:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I believe that.

[43:16] Laura Camien: Schulteis I believe that.

[43:18] Susan Blackwell: I bet he's a master at that.

[43:21] Laura Camien: Thomas Schulteis Team Sparks file, man, is he a master of that?

[43:25] Susan Blackwell: He's so good at it.

[43:26] Laura Camien: So shout out, T Bone.

[43:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[43:29] Laura Camien: Um, yes.

[43:30] Susan Blackwell: So, but back to the why.

[43:32] Laura Camien: Okay.

[43:32] Susan Blackwell: We see the power of why again in the work of Simon Sinek.

[43:37] Laura Camien: Yes.

[43:38] Susan Blackwell: I mean, he's got that.

[43:40] Laura Camien: We the we recommend his TED Talk to so many people.

[43:43] Susan Blackwell: It's called How Great Leaders Inspire Action.

[43:46] Laura Camien: And it has been viewed.

[43:48] Susan Blackwell: It has been viewed just on the TED site more than 54 million times.

[43:53] Laura Camien: That's incredible.

[43:54] Susan Blackwell: And the idea that he posits in that TED talk is unpacked even further in his book, Start with Why.

[44:03] Laura Camien: In his TED talk, Sinek says, and I'm just straight up reading transcripts here.

[44:08] Susan Blackwell: So please enjoy, and I owe you 50 cents, Simon Sinek.

[44:12] Laura Camien: About three and a half years ago, I made a discovery.

[44:15] Susan Blackwell: And this discovery profoundly changed my view on how I thought the world worked.

[44:19] Laura Camien: And it even profoundly changed the way in which I operate in it.

[44:23] Susan Blackwell: As it turns out, there's a pattern.

[44:25] Laura Camien: As it turns out, all the great inspiring leaders and organizations in the world, whether it's Apple or Martin Luther King or the Wright brothers, they all think, act, and communicate the exact same way.

[44:36] Susan Blackwell: And it's the complete opposite of everyone else.

[44:39] Laura Camien: All I did was codify it, and it's probably the world's simplest idea.

[44:43] Susan Blackwell: I call it the golden circle.

[44:46] Laura Camien: So then Simon Sinek draws on a whiteboard three concentric circles.

[44:50] Susan Blackwell: So it looks sort of like a very simplistic dartboard.

[44:53] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[44:54] Susan Blackwell: And in the outer ring is the word what, and in the middle ring is the word how.

[44:59] Laura Camien: And in the very center, right in the bullseye is the word why.

[45:04] Susan Blackwell: Sinek says that this simple pictogram explains why some organizations and some leaders are able to inspire where others aren't.

[45:12] Laura Camien: Every single person, every single organization on the planet knows what they do.

[45:18] Susan Blackwell: So we know that we are creativity coaches.

[45:20] Laura Camien: We know that we are podcasters.

[45:22] Susan Blackwell: We know, you know, um, some people are like, we make uh Tyvek pipes.

[45:22] Laura Camien: Some people are like, you know what I mean?

[45:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[45:31] Laura Camien: So every single organization on the planet knows what they do.

[45:34] Susan Blackwell: Again, what is that outer circle?

[45:36] Laura Camien: And then Sinek goes on.

[45:38] Susan Blackwell: Some know how they do it.

[45:40] Laura Camien: And that's what a business person might call their differentiated value proposition or their proprietary process.

[45:47] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[45:48] Laura Camien: But very, very few people or organizations know why they do what they do.

[45:53] Susan Blackwell: And by why Sinek says, I don't mean to make a profit.

[45:57] Laura Camien: That's a result.

[45:58] Susan Blackwell: By why, he means what is your purpose?

[46:02] Laura Camien: What is your cause?

[46:03] Susan Blackwell: What is your belief?

[46:04] Laura Camien: Why does your organization exist?

[46:07] Susan Blackwell: Why do you get out of bed in the morning?

[46:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[46:09] Susan Blackwell: Why should anyone care?

[46:11] Laura Camien: And as a result, the way we think, the way we act, the way that we communicate is from the outside in.

[46:17] Susan Blackwell: It's very obvious.

[46:18] Laura Camien: We go from the clearest thing, the most external surface thing to the fuzziest thing.

[46:23] Susan Blackwell: But the inspired leaders and the inspired organizations, regardless of their size or their industry, all think, act, and communicate from the inside out.

[46:32] Laura Camien: To quote the name of Simon Sinek's book, they start with why.

[46:37] Susan Blackwell: They lead with their why, they lead with their purpose.

[46:41] Laura Camien: And I got to tell you, when I first saw this TED Talk, it's been a while.

[46:45] Susan Blackwell: I saw it some many years ago, but I watched it over and over and over again.

[46:52] Laura Camien: And it took me a while to figure out my why.

[46:56] Susan Blackwell: So I watched the TED Talk and I read his book and I talked to my friend Jen Waldman, who now collaborates with Simon Sinek, and she helped provide me and fill in some insight.

[47:04] Laura Camien: But I really took a deep dive to discover my why.

[47:08] Susan Blackwell: And I located it and I refined it.

[47:11] Laura Camien: And then I'll tell you, Cammy, I was really bashful about starting with it, like leading with it.

[47:19] Susan Blackwell: Because I don't, you know, I I don't know why.

[47:22] Laura Camien: I I think if I was going to have to articulate it, I didn't want to scare people off or maybe come on too strong.

[47:31] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[47:31] Laura Camien: But now, as you know, Cameron, I fucking lead it.

[47:35] Susan Blackwell: I got to tell you my why.

[47:38] Laura Camien: Baked into my anytime I introduce myself.

[47:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[47:41] Laura Camien: Any anytime I talk about the work that I do, I lead with it because, number one, life's too short.

[47:48] Susan Blackwell: And number two, it's it's just a great clarifier.

[47:52] Laura Camien: If people resonate with it, great.

[47:55] Susan Blackwell: And if they don't, also, great.

[47:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:58] Susan Blackwell: To quote the great Laura Camien, it's all useful information.

[48:02] Laura Camien: Like if people respond to it or they don't, it's sort of like, well, that's useful information.

[48:07] Susan Blackwell: And we can just cut to the motherfucking chase.

[48:09] Laura Camien: That's right.

[48:10] Susan Blackwell: So it's, it's very, it's uh, I actually love this why.

[48:17] Susan Blackwell: This this manifestation of the why.

[48:19] Laura Camien: Um, and you know this well, Cam.

[48:22] Susan Blackwell: And if you're a client or a student of ours, you've heard it too.

[48:25] Susan Blackwell: My why is to free myself and anyone who wants to come along for the ride. And it shows, I feel like it's my life's work. It shows up in everything that I do. It's in the song Die Vampire Die. Think about Die Vampire Die. If you've ever heard that song, it is to free myself and anyone who wants to come along for the ride. It's in the Golden Palace, if you've ever heard that. It's this podcast. Yeah, it's everything that we teach, it's all the therapy I've had. It's my pursuit of financial freedom and self-expression in all its forms. It's my beautiful, loving, authentic, free home life. It's you and me creating a business we love so we can free ourselves in our work day. It's me exercising to be free from pain. It's me being free to tell all of you this unapologetically. I have no hesitancy in saying this to free myself and anyone who wants to come along for the ride. That is my why.

[49:24] Laura Camien: And CamS, I know this is something you've given a lot of thought to as well.

[49:28] Laura Camien: I have. And I feel like what I haven't come to, and hey, we could do it in real time, but the perfect way to articulate it, so I know my why is about truth and authentic self-expression. Everything I've written is about authentic self-expression, getting to a place where I can express myself authentically and encouraging others to do the same. And that's also all my therapy, also all my relationships, also, you know, in the work that we're doing. So I just, I haven't found the phrase. I'm gonna work on that of just like a kicker there of how exactly I'd say that.

[50:19] Susan Blackwell: It's interesting though, because even though you're like, even though you're like, I don't have the exact 11 words that I want to use to just sum that up in a jaunty way, you live it. Like you are being it.

[50:31] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[50:34] Laura Camien: I really believe that, and I'm proud of that. I think you know, you and I will touch base on freedom and authenticity quite a bit in our work and the moments when we transformed our relationship to those things that were keeping us from being free or keeping us from being self-expressed. And both of us can point directly to creative acts that we took to say, hey, I'm going to get a hold of this. This thing is not going to control me anymore. I am going to examine it, write about it, perform it, put it in the world, and literally change the energy and change the power dynamic between me and it. And I'm really proud of that.

[51:27] Susan Blackwell: I love that, Cammy. I also I'm struck while you're talking. I love that. I feel like we have really, I mean, no surprise, but like really complimentary whys.

[51:42] Laura Camien: 100%.

[51:43] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[51:45] Laura Camien: Snap together like a jigsaw puzzle, two jigsaw puzzle pieces just going click.

[51:49] Susan Blackwell: It's great.

[51:50] Laura Camien: That's right. Click. That's the sound they make when they do it. They go click.

[51:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, so what else do we make of it?

[51:56] Laura Camien: I think that one thing we might make of it is taking a deep dive into what moves us at a core level.

[52:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, what moves us to make, to create, to gather. And I think as we discussed before, we use this process of just simply having a discussion partner, a thinking partner say, why and why does that matter and why and why to get to the heart of rascally dilemmas and finding maybe solutions that free us because it's all about freedom, baby.

[52:31] Laura Camien: You know what else strikes me, Suze is that that process of the why might also help us identify things that are no longer important to us.

[52:41] Laura Camien: It seems to me that sometimes we've got hanger ons, you know, we've got these things that we always thought were like exactly.

[52:50] Susan Blackwell: Vestigial tales, T A L E S vestigial tails.

[52:55] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh. Let's write that down. Hashtag vestigial.

[53:01] Susan Blackwell: People are like keep that spark. It is not trending.

[53:07] Laura Camien: I love I'm writing it down anyway.

[53:10] Laura Camien: I just think that doing that series of questions of why you might actually end up with like, oh, I don't have a strong why for this. I am now realizing this is not that vital to me. I've just been hanging on to it. I've outgrown it. I've done it, I've been there and I've done it.

[53:36] Susan Blackwell: Uh yeah, I think that's great. I think that's great. Um, that's my spark, Cam's, and I'm sticking to it.

[53:43] Laura Camien: Suze, thank you for that. I love it. I really love it. And we talk so much about why. I'm really, really glad we took a deep dive into that.

[53:54] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[53:55] Laura Camien: Yes to all of that.

[53:57] Susan Blackwell: Suck you.

[53:59] Laura Camien: Yes.

[53:59] Susan Blackwell: Fuck yeah. Should we take a little break?

[54:01] Laura Camien: Fuck yes.

[54:05] Susan Blackwell: Let's return to the podcast.

[54:08] Laura Camien: That is not gonna stay in.

[54:10] Susan Blackwell: Welcome back.

[54:12] Laura Camien: Please keep it in.

[54:14] Susan Blackwell: Please keep it in.

[54:15] Laura Camien: We'll see.

[54:16] Susan Blackwell: A little picture. Suze.

[54:18] Laura Camien: I'm excited to share my spark.

[54:20] Susan Blackwell: Cams. What were you gonna say?

[54:23] Laura Camien: Camps?

[54:24] Susan Blackwell: I was just saying your name.

[54:25] Laura Camien: Oh, Cam's.

[54:27] Susan Blackwell: Suze. Um, I am excited to share my spark. I don't think it's going to shock you at all today because I have, upon reflecting on this, I feel I've been leaving a trail of breadcrumbs a mile long on this one. So you're gonna be like, oh yeah, of course. It's kind of worth a moment. I'd be like, I think we got her. I think we've got her. She's messy.

[54:51] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[54:52] Susan Blackwell: I have. Um I think it's come up in a couple conversations. I think I've even dropped in a few quotes. It might be the worst kept secret of all time, but here we go, nonetheless.

[55:07] Susan Blackwell: Here we go. So I read an article a couple of weeks ago in The New Yorker, and it was an interview with Twyla Tharp's by the writer Rachel Sim. It was a really great interview, and they dug into like Twyla's history, what she's been up to during the pandemic, and what comes next for her. She is 79 years old.

[55:31] Laura Camien: Is she just rocking like docking?

[55:33] Susan Blackwell: She's fucking rocking like docking.

[55:36] Laura Camien: She's rocking like docking.

[55:38] Susan Blackwell: You make sure you get the full.

[55:42] Susan Blackwell: She comes through her prickly, prickly, prickly personality comes through in this interview.

[55:47] Laura Camien: It's fascinating. Is she prickly? I don't know a ton about her. I do this is what I know about her. That um, you know, it is my understanding that her choreography was, shall we say, very demanding for dancers.

[56:02] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[56:03] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yes. I would say her personality is in line with that. And I'm going to talk about that a little bit too. Um, because I found that to be really, really interesting. There's a couple things um I'll hit upon as we go. So put them in in that. Um for the record, Twyla began choreographing a new piece over Zoom during the pandemic time, featuring Misty Copeland among other dancers. She took on a commission in Europe, and the PBS American Masters series featured an episode about her work and her life, with which just aired in March of this year.

[56:45] Laura Camien: That special is called Twila Moves, and it explores her life as a dancer, a director, a choreographer. It features interviews and select performances from her more than 160 choreographed works, including 129 dances, 12 television specials, six major Hollywood movies, four full-length ballets, four Broadway shows, and two figure skating routines.

[57:14] Susan Blackwell: Say what you will.

[57:19] Laura Camien: She gets shit done. I mean, this woman is prolific. I mean, truly prolific. And she's also written three books. Keep it moving, the collaborative habit, and the creative habit.

[57:31] Susan Blackwell: Keep it moving indeed.

[57:33] Laura Camien: Holy shit. I remembered that I had my old copy of The Creative Habit, which she wrote almost 20 years ago. Like 200 and sorry. Oh, 200. 2003.

[57:48] Susan Blackwell: In the year 2003.

[57:53] Laura Camien: And we talked so much about developing a creative habit and making space for creativity with our clients. I thought, hey, I'm gonna revisit that book and see what gems could still be mined. And I gotta tell you, Suze, most, not all, and we'll get to that, but most of this book not only stands up but reignited ideas in me that I hadn't thought about in a long, long time. So this was a fun journey back for me.

[58:25] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[58:26] Laura Camien: Real I'm gonna stop this. I'm gonna uh completely unplanned. I'm gonna mention this. I don't know if I mentioned this in the podcast before, but I think I told you. I was flipping through this book, and she stop me if I said this on the podcast, but she has these exercises in there.

[58:45] Laura Camien: And so sometime around 2003, I wrote in the pages of this book. Um, there's a whole section on like your creative DNA. And one of the questions is who is your muse? And I wrote two people. I wrote Bailey, who was my niece at the still is my niece, not only at the time, but currently still my niece. Um she must have just been born. She was, you know, maybe one and a huge inspiration. I adored her. The second person I wrote is one Susan Blackwell.

[59:25] Susan Blackwell: Stop it.

[59:26] Laura Camien: In 2003, which means we were either working on, or maybe it was four or two thousand four or five, like shortly after this book came out, I'm sure. But which means we must have been working on either Electra or the myth of female bonding or something that I was writing that I was like, Susan, you have to be in this.

[59:48] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[59:49] Laura Camien: So just saying I I always like to find things that are like, oh yeah. You like me. I really like you, Susan. Apparently I have really liked you for a very long time.

[1:00:02] Susan Blackwell: And you have excellent taste, if I may add.

[1:00:05] Laura Camien: I do have excellent taste. I'm not gonna argue with that. That's that's I'm kidding aside, like that is that is fun and uh I appreciate that. I take that in.

[1:00:16] Susan Blackwell: It's fun.

[1:00:17] Laura Camien: It is, it is genuinely fun. Like this goes back to you know, my four tenets for a good life. I want to make work that I love with people that I love. I'm gonna make a lot of money doing it, and I want to have uh I want it to be sustainable and balanced.

[1:00:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:00:30] Laura Camien: And it's so fun to think like those are some deep roots we got going.

[1:00:35] Susan Blackwell: Those are some in in terms of the work I love with people that I love.

[1:00:38] Laura Camien: That's right. It goes way back.

[1:00:41] Susan Blackwell: It goes all the way to the bottom.

[1:00:44] Laura Camien: So that was really fun. That was delightful. Um I love that. Thank you, Laura. And now for my book report.

[1:00:49] Susan Blackwell: So this book, as I mentioned, I'm kidding, only half kidding. Um, the book is called The Creative Habit. Learn it and use it for life. And it really is Twyla Tharp's's prescription for how to have more creativity in your life. She insists that making it a habit is the key. It's about discipline, preparation, and routine. And she is not joking about that.

[1:01:18] Laura Camien: So a lot of it is, a lot of it is like modeling her ideas of her, you know, her discipline, her routine. So it's interesting.

[1:01:29] Susan Blackwell: We'll get to some of the things that feel a little bit like a different era.

[1:01:35] Laura Camien: But uh couple of fun things I wanted to mention. First of all, not only does Twyla Tharp's use a Sparks file, she uses a Sparks file box.

[1:01:47] Susan Blackwell: Literally, one of those boxes that is built specifically for files.

[1:01:51] Laura Camien: You know, like you can imagine there's a lot of them that are made that are black and white. They're white with black, and you like fold them up and you fold the the top, and you can they they're just made for cardboard?

[1:02:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, cardboard boxes.

[1:02:04] Laura Camien: Like a like a legal box, like in a legal office.

[1:02:08] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:02:08] Laura Camien: Yeah, for transporting files.

[1:02:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:11] Laura Camien: So she for every single project she has done, she starts by taking a box. And in the bottom of the box is the very first image, very first article or idea on a scrap of paper that sparked that project. And then it just continues to fill up with ideas, inspirations, things associated with this project.

[1:02:38] Susan Blackwell: For that one project.

[1:02:40] Laura Camien: For that one project. So she's got, as you can imagine, she has multiple mini boxes. Well, for somebody that does that many different kinds of projects and has made that much, Twyla Tharp's's got a lot of boxes. It's extraordinary.

[1:02:54] Susan Blackwell: And remember, like this was prior to the internet, you know, when she started this system, but she still uses this system today.

[1:03:03] Laura Camien: And as a result, all of her projects have extensive research materials and inspirations that she can share later. Much of it she does share on her website, twylatharp.org, by the way. In college, she was an she majored in art history, so it's really no surprise that she has what is essentially an archive of her own work that will live on beyond her life, but it will also continue to inspire her while she's still working, which looks to be many, many more years, as far as I can tell.

[1:03:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:03:38] Laura Camien: So, for example, she says, a perfect archive gives you more material to call on to use as a spark for invention. The true value of the box, it contains your inspirations without confining your creativity.

[1:03:54] Susan Blackwell: So, as an example, she goes on to explain the items that are contained in the boxes dedicated to moving out.

[1:04:01] Laura Camien: Her Broadway musical, which was all dancing to the songs of Billy Joel. So that those boxes, it's multiple boxes, but of course it contained his music. That's a given, but so much more.

[1:04:15] Susan Blackwell: After she got this idea, based on her love of Billy Joel music, how it inspired her to move, the more she read about Billy Joel, she really thought she would like him, but she did not know him.

[1:04:26] Laura Camien: So she made a 20-minute videotape of some choreography to some of his music. She got his number and she called him up. He came over, saw the tape, and gave his permission for his entire catalog, by the way, for her to use all of his music.

[1:04:44] Susan Blackwell: And they shook on it.

[1:04:46] Laura Camien: That is the day she said she started the box on moving out. And the very first thing in the box was that videotape. Next, two blue index cards.

[1:04:58] Susan Blackwell: She likes to start each project with a stated goal.

[1:05:02] Laura Camien: For moving out, she had two goals. One to tell a story, and two, to make dance pay for the dancers. She was tired of making of like not making any money for her project. So it was a stated goal of this project.

[1:05:20] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:05:20] Laura Camien: She wrote it on an index card, and in it went into the box. Then in the box went research, music, tapes of Billy Joel live performances, Billy Joel interviews, tapes of dances from the years that he wrote the songs.

[1:05:38] Susan Blackwell: So like tapes from Soul Train and other TV shows that featured dancing that was happening at the time that music was being made.

[1:05:47] Laura Camien: Several songs that Billy Joel wrote related to the Vietnam War. So she researched news footage and articles about the Vietnam War, movies like The Deer Hunter, Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. All of it into the box.

[1:06:02] Susan Blackwell: Also in the box are notebooks with her own scribbles and scrolls.

[1:06:08] Laura Camien: Also in the box, a green beret that belonged to a military advisor that she consulted for the show. He taught her how the men signaled to each other down the line because the thickness of the jungle in Vietnam, like you could basically only see one man along because they're like fanned out over a distance.

[1:06:30] Susan Blackwell: And you were lucky if you could just see one man.

[1:06:33] Laura Camien: So they had to nonverbally communicate. And so she used those real details that he shared with her in her dance pieces. Then there's tzotch keys in the box, all of which relate somehow to the project from a pair of earrings that inspired some costume looks to Polaroid pictures that she took on trips to like Billy Joel childhood locations.

[1:07:00] Susan Blackwell: She writes that's how a box is like soil to me.

[1:07:05] Laura Camien: It's basic, earthy, elemental. It's home. It's what I can always go back to when I need to regroup and keep my bearings. Knowing that the box is always there gives me the freedom to venture out, be bold, dare to fall flat on my face.

[1:07:25] Susan Blackwell: She says, before you can think out of the box, you have to start with the box.

[1:07:30] Laura Camien: She goes on to say, and I appreciated this.

[1:07:33] Susan Blackwell: The box is not a substitute for creating.

[1:07:38] Laura Camien: The box doesn't compose or write a poem or create a dance step. The box is the raw index of your preparation. It's the repository of your creative potential, but it is not that potential realized.

[1:07:54] Susan Blackwell: And of course, I mean, come on.

[1:07:56] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:07:57] Susan Blackwell: As you obviously do.

[1:07:59] Laura Camien: Because the research phase, the collecting of ideas phase, especially if you make it as fun as she just made it, it can be so exciting. All these discoveries and connections are being made.

[1:08:09] Susan Blackwell: It can be delightful and you're popping off.

[1:08:12] Laura Camien: Your brain is, you know, just making connections between disparate things, but we don't want to get stuck there.

[1:08:20] Susan Blackwell: Twilight says, I find the box is most useful at three critical stages.

[1:08:26] Laura Camien: One, when you're getting going, two, when you're lost, and three, after you've finished.

[1:08:33] Susan Blackwell: That's when you can look back and see the directions that you didn't take, the ideas that intrigued you, but maybe didn't fit this time around, but might be the start of your next box.

[1:08:45] Laura Camien: Will you say that one more time?

[1:08:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I sure will.

[1:08:49] Laura Camien: So Twilight's mind.

[1:08:53] Susan Blackwell: I like watching it happen.

[1:08:55] Laura Camien: So she says, I find the box is most useful at three critical stages.

[1:09:01] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:09:01] Laura Camien: One, when you're getting going, like when you're first starting.

[1:09:05] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[1:09:05] Laura Camien: Yep. Yep. Soil, raw materials, love it.

[1:09:09] Susan Blackwell: When you're lost.

[1:09:10] Laura Camien: So let's say you've lost your way, right?

[1:09:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:09:13] Laura Camien: And you're like, wait a minute, I need to get back to basics. What was it that inspired me?

[1:09:19] Susan Blackwell: And number three, after you're finished.

[1:09:23] Laura Camien: That's when you can look back and see all of the directions that you didn't take, the ideas that intrigued you, but didn't fit this time around.

[1:09:33] Susan Blackwell: And just might be the start of your next box.

[1:09:37] Laura Camien: I freaking love it.

[1:09:38] Susan Blackwell: Right?

[1:09:38] Laura Camien: I love it.

[1:09:39] Susan Blackwell: And I just I just want to say what I exclaimed so outheartedly, that there's something about like that.

[1:09:47] Laura Camien: We love you, please.

[1:09:48] Susan Blackwell: We built a fucking podcast about like collecting and sharing sparks.

[1:09:53] Laura Camien: But just like that, collecting sparks is collecting sparks.

[1:09:58] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:09:59] Laura Camien: And it's step one whole spark cycle.

[1:10:01] Susan Blackwell: It's step one.

[1:10:02] Laura Camien: It's that's right one.

[1:10:04] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:10:05] Laura Camien: And so I just love, I love hearing that.

[1:10:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm so excited to tell you more because there's more on more where that came from.

[1:10:13] Laura Camien: Um, that came from.

[1:10:16] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[1:10:16] Laura Camien: I really love this approach, the whole box approach.

[1:10:20] Susan Blackwell: I just love how she walks the line between like taking everything very seriously and taking nothing so seriously when it comes to the box.

[1:10:28] Laura Camien: There's just a real gift there to know that the research is important and vital to your project, and to know that your relationship to it is best kept light, to like touch back to it for inspiration, to jostle some new ideas around in your brain, but not to be weighed down by it.

[1:10:46] Susan Blackwell: That's what I took from her whole section there.

[1:10:49] Laura Camien: I was just like, she has such a healthy relationship to it.

[1:10:54] Susan Blackwell: One of the next things I delighted in, Suze was what you just mentioned.

[1:10:59] Laura Camien: She has an entire section on what we would call generating sparks.

[1:11:05] Susan Blackwell: She calls it scratching.

[1:11:07] Laura Camien: Here's how she describes it.

[1:11:10] Susan Blackwell: The first steps of a creative act are like groping in the dark, random and chaotic, feverish and fearful, a lot of busyness with no apparent or definable end in sight.

[1:11:22] Laura Camien: You need a tangible idea to get you going.

[1:11:26] Susan Blackwell: The idea, however, minuscule, is what turns the verb into a noun.

[1:11:31] Laura Camien: Paint into a painting, sculpt into sculpture, write into writing, dance into a dance.

[1:11:41] Susan Blackwell: I call it scratching.

[1:11:43] Laura Camien: That's what I'm doing when I begin a piece.

[1:11:46] Susan Blackwell: I'm digging through everything to find something.

[1:11:49] Laura Camien: It's like clawing at the side of a mountain to get a toe hold, a grip, some sort of traction to keep moving upward and onward.

[1:11:58] Susan Blackwell: Scratching takes many shapes.

[1:12:01] Laura Camien: A fashion designer is scratching when they visit vintage clothing stores or study music videos, or when they park themselves at a sidewalk cafe to see what the pedestrians are wearing.

[1:12:13] Susan Blackwell: A film director is scratching when they grab a flight to Rome, trusting that they'll get their next big idea in that inspiring city.

[1:12:21] Laura Camien: The act of changing your environment is the scratch.

[1:12:25] Susan Blackwell: An architect is scratching when he walks through a rock quarry, studying the algebraic connections of fallen rocks on the surface of a rock wall or the sweeping space of the quarry itself.

[1:12:37] Laura Camien: Twilight says this.

[1:13:05] Susan Blackwell: If I'm going to be a cheerleader for the creative urge, let it be for something other than the notion that ideas are everywhere.

[1:13:14] Laura Camien: Oh my God, Suze, I just laughed.

[1:13:16] Susan Blackwell: I was like, well, we'll be the cheerleaders for the fact that ideas are everywhere.

[1:13:23] Laura Camien: I mean, it just podcasts.

[1:13:26] Susan Blackwell: We'll do it.

[1:13:27] Laura Camien: Remember her prickly personality.

[1:13:29] Susan Blackwell: It's in this book as well, but I laughed so hard because it's truly the essence of the Sparks File to be cheerleaders for the notion that ideas are everywhere.

[1:13:39] Laura Camien: I don't mind it.

[1:13:40] Susan Blackwell: I have zero shame.

[1:13:42] Laura Camien: It might be obvious to some people, but there are so many, many more people who struggle with developing an idea, wondering if what they've got in their mind is an idea, or knowing what to do with it once they have an idea, which is why we're here to help, which is awesome.

[1:14:02] Susan Blackwell: Um, and so is Twila, frankly.

[1:14:05] Laura Camien: I mean, she has a bunch of ideas on how to generate sparks in here, what she calls scratching, from like reading, taking other people, um, taking in other people's creativity, looking to your mentors, heroes, nature, all of those great ideas.

[1:14:20] Susan Blackwell: And she gives great examples.

[1:14:22] Laura Camien: But she also offers a few tips on making your scratching or spark hunting more successful.

[1:14:28] Susan Blackwell: One, she says, be in shape, meaning get into the practice of it and stay in the practice of it.

[1:14:35] Laura Camien: It takes longer when you're rusty.

[1:14:38] Susan Blackwell: So just keep yourself always searching.

[1:14:42] Laura Camien: Um, she says scratch in the best places.

[1:14:45] Susan Blackwell: She recommends listening to the highest quality music, reading the best writers, studying the greats.

[1:14:51] Laura Camien: If you're gonna get great ideas, get them from the greats.

[1:14:55] Susan Blackwell: And then the last thing she says is maintain a white hot pitch.

[1:15:01] Laura Camien: This one I found really interesting because she talks about unleashing furious, mindless energy and watching it bounce off everything in your path.

[1:15:14] Susan Blackwell: And the hope is that a spark will fly from all of that contact and combustion.

[1:15:19] Laura Camien: And it usually does.

[1:15:20] Susan Blackwell: But when it does, we often stop to try to correct it, edit it, judge it, slow it down because I think, because she doesn't say this, but I think we try to slow it down because the combustion of ideas is really scary.

[1:15:36] Laura Camien: And so she recommends maintaining the white hot pitch when you're in creative mode.

[1:15:41] Susan Blackwell: Try to resist the urge to calm it down.

[1:15:44] Laura Camien: Instead, if you can move with it, roll with it, let it take you to new ideas.

[1:15:50] Susan Blackwell: I have to say that one struck me because I've had projects that had such an energy behind them that scared me.

[1:16:00] Laura Camien: And I I can just personally say, like, I was like slow it down.

[1:16:04] Susan Blackwell: And I know you and I are always like slow it down on a lot of things, but I think this is important to be conscious of not slowing something down out of fear.

[1:16:16] Laura Camien: You know, letting those ideal ideas really roll.

[1:16:19] Susan Blackwell: Usually when we talk about slow it down, we're talking about let it go deeper, like take your time and let it go deeper.

[1:16:26] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:16:27] Susan Blackwell: But you're talking about not pulling off and back from something because of fear.

[1:16:33] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:16:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:16:34] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:16:34] Susan Blackwell: Because sometimes something is so exciting and the energy does feel like a combustion and the ideas are big and it's maybe grander than what you had planned on.

[1:16:44] Laura Camien: And suddenly we can feel overwhelmed.

[1:16:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:16:48] Laura Camien: So I just thought that was interesting.

[1:16:50] Susan Blackwell: Maintain the white hot pitch.

[1:16:53] Laura Camien: So she really talks about the creative state as turning off the conscious mind and the mental filters.

[1:17:00] Susan Blackwell: She's very careful to say, like, it's not like meditation, but it is also not um our conscious mind with all of its judgments and filters.

[1:17:13] Laura Camien: So it's like this middle state of like leaving yourself open to everything.

[1:17:18] Susan Blackwell: She tells this story that I'd totally forgotten about.

[1:17:21] Laura Camien: Um, it's a story of Thomas Edison.

[1:17:24] Susan Blackwell: She says, when he needed an idea, Thomas Edison liked to sit in what he called a thinking chair, holding a metal ball bearing in each palm.

[1:17:33] Laura Camien: Do you know this story?

[1:17:35] Susan Blackwell: With his hands closed and on the floor directly under his hands were two metal pie pans.

[1:17:41] Laura Camien: He would close his eyes and allow his body to relax somewhere between consciousness and dreaming, his hands would relax and open without effort, letting the ball bearing fall noisily into the pie pans.

[1:17:54] Susan Blackwell: That's when he would wake up and he would write down whatever idea was in his head at the moment.

[1:17:59] Laura Camien: And it was his way of coming up with ideas without his conscious mind censoring them.

[1:18:06] Susan Blackwell: So this is a story that Emily Fletcher tells when she's teaching meditation.

[1:18:10] Laura Camien: Interesting, what she is, what you are describing with that story of Thomas Edison and basically cresting up into consciousness.

[1:18:22] Susan Blackwell: And then if you were meditating back down and back up and back down, you're doing it with the mantra as opposed to the sound of the ball bearing hitting the pi pan.

[1:18:22] Laura Camien: You're doing it.

[1:18:34] Susan Blackwell: But I will say it is very creatively fertile.

[1:18:39] Laura Camien: Thomas Edison was doing it to surface when he was maybe at a uh impasse and he was looking to refresh his brain and surface creative like creative ideas.

[1:18:50] Susan Blackwell: And I will say that when I meditate, which is every day, I said, Well, sometimes, if we have a conundrum, or if I have a conundrum and I'm like, oh, the way we describe it with to our clients sometimes is I'll ask my highest self.

[1:19:06] Laura Camien: So capital S Susan, I'll just pose the question and then I'll meditate.

[1:19:11] Susan Blackwell: And a lot of times the answer will come during meditation.

[1:19:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:19:17] Susan Blackwell: It's the ball bearing hitting the pipe in.

[1:19:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:19:19] Susan Blackwell: It is.

[1:19:20] Laura Camien: And it's like getting out of our way.

[1:19:23] Susan Blackwell: It's like silencing that judge that sometimes like kills things before they even have a chance.

[1:19:29] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[1:19:30] Susan Blackwell: You know, it's like just getting that out of the way.

[1:19:34] Laura Camien: She also shares her beliefs about luck and preparation.

[1:19:38] Susan Blackwell: Um, you know, which a lot of people have these ideas about whether the muse comes to you, yes, but you have to be working.

[1:19:45] Laura Camien: Um, and so it's a similar idea.

[1:19:47] Susan Blackwell: She says the most productive artists I know have a plan in mind when they get down to work.

[1:19:52] Laura Camien: They know what they want to accomplish, how to do it, and what to do if the process falls off track.

[1:19:57] Susan Blackwell: But there's a fine line between good planning and over planning.

[1:20:02] Laura Camien: You never want the planning to inhibit the natural evolution of your work.

[1:20:06] Susan Blackwell: This to me is the most interesting paradox of creativity.

[1:20:10] Laura Camien: In order to be habitually creative, you have to know how to prepare to be creative.

[1:20:16] Susan Blackwell: But good planning alone won't make your efforts successful.

[1:20:19] Laura Camien: It's only after you let go of your plans that you can breathe life into your efforts.

[1:20:25] Susan Blackwell: Your men.

[1:20:27] Laura Camien: Amen, right?

[1:20:28] Susan Blackwell: Your creative efforts.

[1:20:30] Laura Camien: I'm sorry, backing up.

[1:20:32] Susan Blackwell: Your creative endeavors can never be thoroughly mapped out ahead of time.

[1:20:37] Laura Camien: You have to allow for the suddenly altered landscape, the change in plan, the accidental spark, and you have to see it as a stroke of luck rather than a disturbance to your perfect scheme.

[1:20:50] Susan Blackwell: Habitually, creative people are, in E.B. White's phrase, prepared to be lucky or prepared for happy little accidents, we'd say, thanks to Bob Ross.

[1:21:01] Laura Camien: Being prepared for luck is like getting a message that tells you something good may happen to you between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. today.

[1:21:10] Susan Blackwell: Make sure you're at your desk or in your studio or at your laboratory bench, or you have your guitar in your hands working and keep your eyes open for it.

[1:21:20] Laura Camien: You have to be present in the room to recognize the stroke of luck.

[1:21:25] Susan Blackwell: The more you are in the room working, experimenting, banging away at your objective, the more luck has a chance of biting you on the nose.

[1:21:36] Laura Camien: Amen.

[1:21:37] Susan Blackwell: Amen, right?

[1:21:38] Laura Camien: Amen.

[1:21:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:21:40] Laura Camien: It's just like, you know, people are magnetized to those who are doing things already in motion.

[1:21:47] Susan Blackwell: Uh, the momentum is, you know, is such a draw.

[1:21:51] Laura Camien: There's also a lot of really good stuff in this book about creative limitation.

[1:21:57] Susan Blackwell: And uh yeah, I we're gonna revisit that.

[1:22:01] Laura Camien: And I think, you know, we have some curriculum about creative limitation, and I think there's some there's some Twilight Star Twilight stuff that needs to go in there.

[1:22:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, she also talks about the need for failure, what to do when you get in a groove or a rut, and even how to increase our metaphor IQ.

[1:22:20] Laura Camien: There's over, which is so interesting, Suze.

[1:22:23] Susan Blackwell: That's gonna be another conversation for another day.

[1:22:26] Laura Camien: But there's over 30 different exercises you can do.

[1:22:29] Susan Blackwell: It's very active.

[1:22:31] Laura Camien: I really appreciate also that she explores some of the more frustrating like misconceptions about creativity.

[1:22:38] Susan Blackwell: She says there's a paradox in the notion that creativity should be a habit.

[1:22:43] Laura Camien: We think of creativity as a way of keeping everything fresh and new, while habit implies routine and repetition.

[1:22:51] Susan Blackwell: That paradox intrigues her because it occupies the place where creativity and skill rub up against each other.

[1:22:58] Laura Camien: It takes skill to bring something you've imagined into the world.

[1:23:02] Susan Blackwell: And no one is born with that skill.

[1:23:04] Laura Camien: If art is the bridge between what you see in your mind and what the world sees, then skill is how you build that bridge.

[1:23:14] Susan Blackwell: And Suze, I think we know, obviously, the building of that skill, it takes time.

[1:23:19] Laura Camien: It takes trial and error.

[1:23:21] Susan Blackwell: It takes failure.

[1:23:23] Laura Camien: And we have so little experience practicing the errors.

[1:23:30] Susan Blackwell: Like so many of us, I think, you know, we we've witnessed it time and time again.

[1:23:35] Susan Blackwell: Like we just want our work to pop out of us perfect, deeply meaningful, culturally relevant, and we tend not to be patient with ourselves as our skill develops.

[1:23:48] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:23:49] Susan Blackwell: You know, if I could help anyone in their creative effort, Suze, I think this is one of the most important and meaningful steps that must be taken to understand what it feels like to be in the process of becoming skilled at something. Allowing for the time and the energy that it takes, allowing for the vulnerability that that takes, um, and knowing I'm just in the middle of it. That's all. That's all. I'm just in the middle of it.

[1:24:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:24:24] Susan Blackwell: But we're just not taught that. You know what I mean? Like, I it feels like so much of our arts education is about end product and how quickly can you get to the end product. So, as Twyla says, when creativity has become your habit, when you've learned to manage time, resources, expectations, and the demands of others, when you understand the value in the place of validation, continuity, and the purity of purpose. There's your why, then you're on the way to an artist's ultimate goal, the achievement of mastery.

[1:24:58] Laura Camien: There's really a lot that we can learn from Twyla Tharp's about her process, her work ethic, and her attitude. The one thing that really struck me reading this, as we would say in today's terminology, Twyla Tharp's is not here to be your basic bitch. She is not, there's just nothing pedestrian about her approach. She makes it clear, there's no time for these types of worries. But here is what she does say about her fears, which I think are interesting. She says, when I walk into the studio, I am alone, but I'm alone with my body, ambition, ideas, passions, needs, memories, goals, prejudices, distractions, fears. These ten items are at the heart of who I am. Whatever I'm going to create will be a reflection of how these have shaped my life and how I've learned to channel my experiences into them.

The last two, distractions and fears, are the dangerous ones. They're the habitual demons that invade the launch of any project. No one starts a creative endeavor without a certain amount of fear. The key is to learn how to keep free-floating fears from paralyzing you before you've begun.

[1:26:17] Susan Blackwell: When I feel that sense of dread, I try to make it as specific as possible. Let me tell you my five big fears. One, people will laugh at me. Two, someone has done it before. Three, I have nothing to say. Four, I will upset someone I love. Five, once executed, the idea will never be as good as it is in my mind. These are mighty demons, but they are hardly unique to me. You probably share some. If I let them in, they'll shut down my impulses and perhaps turn off the spigots of creativity altogether. So I combat my fears with a staring down ritual, like a boxer looking his opponent right in the eye before a bout. Number one, people will laugh at me. Not the people I respect. They haven't yet, and they're not going to start now. Number two, someone has done it before. Honey, it's all been done before. Nothing's original, not Homer or Shakespeare, and certainly not you. Get over yourselves.

[1:27:27] Laura Camien: She's giving me dive vampire dive vibes.

[1:27:31] Susan Blackwell: Right? Right? Number three, I have nothing to say, an irrelevant fear. We all have something to say. Number four, I will upset someone I love. A serious worry that is not easily exercised or stared down because you never know how loved ones will respond to your creation. The best you can do is remind yourself that you're a good person with good intentions. You're trying to create unity, not discord. Number five. Once executed, the idea will never be as good as it is in my mind. Toughen up. Leon Battista Alberti, the 15th-century architectural theorist said, Errors accumulate in the sketch and compound in the model. But better an imperfect dome in Florence than cathedrals in the clouds. And isn't that what it all comes down to? Having created something, even with its imperfections and things you would do differently. Isn't it better than not having created anything at all?

[1:28:36] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:28:38] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes.

[1:28:40] Laura Camien: There's so much goodness. There's a lot of goodness in this book. There are a few things that didn't quite hold up for me. One of them, I think it what you know, it sort of triggered feelings in me because I was like, oh, this was an idea that was perpetuated when I was in college and just getting out of school. And Twyla states it like it's a fact. And it is this idea that you cannot be more than one type of artist. She literally says, it is a curse to be talented in more than one art form, because then you have to choose. And that gives you a 50-50 chance that you'll be wrong in your choice. And you could have been a genius at the other thing that you didn't choose. And I was like, I don't think this idea is helpful.

First of all, creatives don't need another fear to be distraught over. And I think you have to feel like what is of interest to you. And that may change over time. And you get to change over time. Also, we're living in a new world. People today, in particular, younger people, which I'm incredibly inspired by, are naming their interests, giving themselves hyphenates and going for it.

[1:30:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:30:01] Laura Camien: Like this idea that you can only be one, mm-mm. I think we're all over it. Chicken says, not feeling it, toilet.

[1:30:09] Susan Blackwell: No.

[1:30:10] Laura Camien: You know, the not feeling it chicken.

[1:30:12] Susan Blackwell: The not feeling it chicken says, No.

[1:30:15] Laura Camien: Not feel it. Thanks, Pete Holmes.

[1:30:18] Susan Blackwell: That's yeah. I think I think that that, I mean, that's probably. And maybe she still believes this. Maybe she does still stand by this. But it feels dated.

[1:30:26] Laura Camien: It feels dated.

[1:30:30] Susan Blackwell: And I mean, I do think it's difficult to do all of the things at the same time. But the idea that we contain multitudes and can express ourselves in many different artistic modes, I'm down with that.

[1:30:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:30:43] Susan Blackwell: The other thing that feels a bit dated to me, frankly, and we touched on this at the very top of the spark. The attitude of if you are an artistic genius, you can overwork people and you can be rude because you've earned it. There's a little tiny, tiny flavor of that in this book. It's filed under never wavering from your artistic vision, but it rings out with a different tone in these days, I think. I really do. I think we're, I think we're evolving. I mean, I get that when you've earned your stripes, you get to bark out orders however you want and only give respect to those who will work around the clock. That's the world that we were brought up in. Um, and you know, I get that, but I really do think it might be changing a bit. Let's hope it's changing a little bit.

[1:31:40] Laura Camien: I'm I agree.

[1:31:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:31:42] Laura Camien: So in it has to change for us because we're just too fucking tired.

[1:31:45] Susan Blackwell: But too fucking tired.

[1:31:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:31:47] Susan Blackwell: And I don't want to bark orders at anyone. I want to work collaboratively with people.

[1:31:52] Laura Camien: And yeah.

[1:31:53] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:31:53] Laura Camien: Yeah, it felt it felt dated. Um, in that interview in The New Yorker, talk about prickly, Twyla says this about that American Masters special that just aired on PBS. She said, it is the low-hanging fruit on the tip of the iceberg, the beginner's kit with me and my career. Then she paused, sighed, and added, but that's okay. It's better than nothing.

[1:32:23] Susan Blackwell: Oh. I will say this about both MySpark and about the book, The Creative Habit. It's just the beginner's kit. It's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to designing a creatively filled life. In fact, Twyla sums up the book like this. In the end, there is no ideal condition for creativity. What works for one person is useless for another. The only criterion is this. Make it easy on yourself. Find a working environment where the prospect of wrestling with your muse doesn't scare you, doesn't shut you down. It should make you want to be there. And once you find it, stick with it. To get the creative habit, you need a working environment that's habit forming. All preferred working states, no matter how eccentric, have one thing in common. When you enter into them, they compel you to get started.

[1:33:22] Laura Camien: And I think that's really what we make of it, Suze. Get started. Getting started is the key. You can write a whole book about it, but at the end of the day, Nike put it best. We just have to do it.

[1:33:38] Susan Blackwell: Do it. I mean, really, we were talking, I was talking with one of our clients recently, and they're like, Well, I just don't know. Like, I'm having this resistance, and I feel like the answer is like I just have to do it, but I don't want to do it. And I I like we want so much for there to be a different answer.

[1:34:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:34:01] Susan Blackwell: But we just have to do it.

[1:34:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:34:01] Susan Blackwell: It's funny though, when you do get into the practice of it, like you were saying, when you show up and then you stand a better chance of catching some luck. When you're in the practice of it, and that flow is a little more lubricated.

[1:34:17] Laura Camien: Yeah, it is easier.

[1:34:19] Susan Blackwell: It is easier. And when you're kind of rusty or like you've been all fallen off the pony for a little while, like exercise, it just reminds me of that.

[1:34:29] Laura Camien: Exercise.

[1:34:29] Susan Blackwell: It is. You're in the flow of it. You feel good, you're doing it every day, you don't question it. You grab your sports bra, just in arm's reach there.

[1:34:37] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:34:38] Susan Blackwell: And you're doing it. You just do it when it can be daunting if you're off the wagon and just trying to get something going. And I think the less we do it, the more pressure we put on the session when we do do it. So not having done it in a long time, we need some like evidence of our genius to arrive almost immediately. And in actuality, that's gonna come with the practice. That's gonna come with the habit, the habitual spark searching, fanning the flames, you know.

[1:35:14] Laura Camien: You know, there was another thing in what you said, and it was sort of solidified by, you know, there's an American Masters piece that comes out, and you're sort of complaining in your New Yorker profile about how it's just the tip of the tip of the iceberg of your life's work, yeah, and your genius. And um, there was something inherent in something that you said earlier, and I can't remember what the specific point was, but I was like, oh, she's gunning for legacy. Like what she's gunning for with her creativity is something different than you or I, or maybe some of the people that are listening.

[1:35:56] Susan Blackwell: Suze 100%.

[1:35:56] Laura Camien: It might, it might be a connection to the archive. Um, this fact that, you know, she and she does talk about it in the New Yorker, that that dance, it isn't like there are manuscripts or manuscripts of anyone's work that can be, you know, put on file and found there years later. Dance, there isn't, there isn't um sheet music. So I think it's incredibly important to her that these archives exist and that her dance is cataloged and written about in the context of like how it changed um the dance world you know what you're right but that's not the point that you made that made me think oh she's you know what it was what it's the sort of it it's a curse to be a multipassionate person oh that was the point because I was like oh because you're just trying to ascend to mastery that's right in one discipline that is that to me that to me I'm like what I you know I hope I I hope we change the world back to my spark like what is the why because I want to make the world a better place.

[1:37:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:37:12] Laura Camien: But legacy is less of a driver for me if I'm honest. I'm sort of like I'll do what I I think a hundred years from now it's probably a pretty safe bet that nobody's gonna be saying my name. And I'm not that I'm not I'm not that chuffed about it as the British would say. But I think about all the different creative things that you and I get to do just in our worlds whether that is podcasting or teaching which for me I feel like is my that's like my true calling in life but then sometimes it's acting sometimes it's painting and am I ever going to be uh Michelangelo or Chuck Close or Picasso or some or Jerry Ulfelder.

[1:38:01] Laura Camien: I'm looking at her paintings on my wall right now. Nope, I'm not. But I love it. It brings me pleasure. That's right. I don't view that as a waste of time, just because it's not flowing into me reaching the pinnacle of being a great teacher. I think it actually, I think in some ways it makes me a better teacher. So it's funny. I have so much respect for Twyla Tharp's, and I don't want to come off like I am crapping on her legacy or the things she's, you know, all the amazing things she's accomplished. I just feel differently. I feel differently, and I think it's because my eyes are on a different prize. That's right. And I also want to remain open to the possibility that maybe she feels differently now.

It's very possible that she has evolved since writing this book. Um, but it also articulates how about that? Well, true, true. They didn't touch on this, this topic exactly of, you know, being only one kind of artist. But I think you are spot on in terms of the mastery. Um, that is her ultimate goal. And she does talk a lot about Mozart and Beethoven and Bach and those people who she would say live. Yeah, whose names live on and you know that she aspires to that level. It makes perfect sense. And it explains the work ethic. It explains the, uh, round the clock. I mean, there are a lot of stories about her. Um, she had gotten married and moved upstate and had a child and then almost immediately moved back, like child in tow to um the dance studios, like just could not, like she was unwilling to not have dance in her life, no matter what it took, and you know, that took years of um essentially living in poverty and um holding their dance rehearsals in the park outside, um bringing the baby everywhere.

Uh it, it was, it's there's just no doubt. Like she, um driven, I guess driven is the word that people would probably say, like at any cost, she was driven. And she might argue that is what it takes. That she might say that is what it takes to leave a legacy, yeah. Yeah, interesting. But I mean it was it's very, very inspiring television too much. Yeah, that's right. She didn't have Netflix during this time, so that could explain everything. Yeah, I like I like more um I just disparate different drivers, different structures. Different drivers, it all goes back to like what drives your creativity and um, you know, leaving a legacy just may not be the, you know what's driving us, but there's still so much to take in terms of um the creative habit and and creating a habit that works for you that is unique, you know.

It no one's gonna have all the answers, no one's gonna say, I mean, all you can do is learn about ways other people do it, and then whatever is working for you, keep doing it. Keep doing it and make a habit of it. Make a creative habit of it. Make a creative habit of it, Suze.

[1:41:44] Susan Blackwell: I enjoyed this spark outing very much, Laura Camien.

[1:41:49] Laura Camien: Oh, me too, Suze. Thanks. Always a good time. It still stands. This is a good fucking time for us. We don't know what it's like for you out there, but we sure do. Oh, I hope you had fun too and got spark. I swear every time we do this. Oh, I wanted to check in with you because before we started recording, you were like, I've got a little film of irritability.

[1:42:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I just almost like flash paper. I want to light it on fire and let it burn off. And I'm just wanted to check in with you and see how you're feeling now after we've got a lot of time.

[1:42:20] Laura Camien: It's burn off. It's burn off. We had a spark. And there it went. There it went. I had a suspicion. I feel like this podcast is such a mood changer for me. Even if I come in and I'm just like ground down to a fine powder.

[1:42:36] Yes. I do a little sparking with you.

[1:42:39] Susan Blackwell: I'm completely sober. And still so it's it, it it's like happy juice.

[1:42:48] Laura Camien: It's happy juice. It reminds me of, you know, 20 years ago when we would just sit and talk about things and be inspired and excited, and we just we didn't have anything to record it on. But now we do. So now we get to record these conversations. I love that. 20 years ago when you wrote in that book that I was your muse.

[1:43:10] Susan Blackwell: We'll be in Bailey. Hi, Bailey. I'll share it with you. What am I gonna write for you next? I feel the urge, Suze. Something's brewing. It's gonna look like it.

[1:43:22] Laura Camien: You're a cameo. You know, I said this to you the other day, but I was like, if you want to, please. I don't need to give you a creative homework assignment. You got plenty on your plate. But I was like, I think you might want to give some thought to either making something for yourself where you get to center your performing as well as your writing, but that you get to perform, or that you maybe find an external opportunity. But I'm just like, if you're if you can write it yourself, make it couture, baby. Um I just thought I think I don't know. I think something you have a lot to do, but I ooh, yeah. I see something on the horizon.

[1:44:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm super excited. Yeah, you little devil. I'm excited. Yeah, there's some stuff. There's some stuff sparking off in my mind. And um I think you're gonna blow minds. I feel like you know, most of the world doesn't know. They know you're a great Laura Camien, they know you're many people know you're like, you're a great coach, you're a great teacher. You're a great fucking actor. Um writer, too. And I think they're gonna be like, they're gonna come back and hit them. What they'll say out loud from the audience in the darkness.

[1:44:44] Laura Camien: What's up?

[1:44:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thank you, Suze. That's exciting. And I'm excited to get, you know, maybe back on uh and do something with you because that's what we did back in the day, you know. We just wrote the show after memorize anything, do I? I'll try to make it so like your character always carries a clipboard around or something.

[1:45:06] Laura Camien: So there you go. Can I just tell you I just shot a very uh just a little tiny part on the marvelous Mrs. Maisel?

[1:45:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:45:14] Laura Camien: And I had it was one of those things that they do to guests on the show. This is every show. It's not just Maisel. But this is my area of specialty, ladies and gentlemen, and people who don't identify as either ladies or gentlemen. This is my area of specialty. I can it takes a year off my life, but I can do these big long runs of text where I'm just like, it's this, it's that, it's this, it's that. It's me talking, it's me talking for two minutes straight, sort of thing. And I didn't know until I did an episode of a show called The Good Wife. And I walked into the hair and makeup room, and Christine Baranski goes, Oh, thank God you're here. And I was like, Oh, they make the guests do a lot of the heavy lifting so that they don't have to memorize this shit.

So I'm sitting in um hair and makeup, just quietly getting my hair done for Maisel, running those lines because I had some thick, chunky lines. And uh Jane Lynch is on that show as well. And from like three chairs away, Jane Lynch, who let me tell you right now, it's not always like here. You like a little showbiz talk kids? Here we go. Jane Lynch. Have I told you this? Jane Lynch was like, Susan, we're so excited that you're here with us today. I had dinner last night with Alex Borstein. She's so excited that you're here. You know, she played you. She played you in title of show. Which I did know, but I didn't know they were talking about me over dinner. And I was just so but she was like, she was so warm.

It's not always like that. So thank you, Jane Lynch. I'm sure she's not listening to this podcast. Jane Lynch. And then I said, she said, How you doing? And I was like, Jane, I've got a lot of talking to do today. And she said, It's my entire career. She said, There are just a few of us who can sound who can handle a lot of language and sound really authoritative. And that's you, and that's me. And I was like, it is. You and me, Jane Lynch. You and me, Jane Lynch. But where was this story going? Where did we start the story?

[1:47:27] Laura Camien: You were talking about story.

[1:47:29] Susan Blackwell: Not having to memorize lines. Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah. There we go. Clipboard.

[1:47:34] Laura Camien: Thank you. God. You bet. So apparently I could give you an entire mouthful of lines. Like I could give you paragraphs. Now you've sort of outed yourself. You and Jane Lynch could do.

[1:47:46] Susan Blackwell: Me and Jane Lynch. So I had this big, chunky list after list. It was a lot. And props came up and they handed me a clipboard. And they were like, okay, here's your clipboard. Here's the file folder. And I was like, how about you type up my lines? No. On some period paper and help a sister out. And they were like, oh yeah. And they take my clipboard back and they bring it. So if you ever see that episode of the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, please enjoy me just fully dipping down to the clipboard, Laura Camien.

[1:48:23] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:48:24] Susan Blackwell: Lines on a clipboard. You brought it up. Lines on a clipboard. Circle. Or we could do like my other spark is we could do like love letters. Do you know that show? And it's just you and I reading love letters to each other. And it could we could just do love letters. We could do a lady on lady love letters.

[1:48:46] Laura Camien: Oh my god, Suze, it's going on my vision board.

[1:48:50] Susan Blackwell: Put on your vision board and smoke it. You and me. Yes. You and me in Love Letters back on Broadway. They're gonna be looking for you know small casts. Um and then on Monday nights, it can be Sally Struthers and Chuck Derning. I don't think is he still alive. Anyway, um, I think that's it. I think we should shut this down. This is it. This has been I gotta go work on another episode. Uh that's right, get out some magazines of scissors. This episode of The Spark File, as usual, was made on Muncie Lenape and Seminole land. And as always, we do hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file, or maybe it just did that for us. You know, it's a win-win. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you've fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, we hope you'll email us at thesparkfile@gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently. You can follow us on social at thesparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast, especially the subscribe part. It really helps other listeners find us. And if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people you love. And if you didn't like it, we want you to ask yourself why, why, why, why, why? Five whys. If something because you don't want to make the world a better place, that's on you. Is that why? If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You can't just put it into your spark box. You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[1:50:43] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:50:50] Susan Blackwell: Why? Why? When I bump into something that inspires me. I dump it in the spark fire. Sparfies could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark fire. Sparfies. I jump into my spark five. Let's open up the spark fire.