This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark style. Spark!

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark slide. Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Laura Camien: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Sparks File community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:57] Susan Blackwell: Hey!

[0:57] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, first timer.

[1:01] Susan Blackwell: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:07] Laura Camien: But hold the phone. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: Well, Laura, a spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and your fascinations.

[1:19] Laura Camien: If you're anything like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know you're not careful. Your little campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:28] Susan Blackwell: But do not despair. We are collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:45] Laura Camien: Or a compassionate creative response to the wintry seasons of our lives.

[1:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh Shingling. I'm interested.

[1:53] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:59] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:03] Laura Camien: This means that we have more sparks than we can possibly use in our lifetimes, friends.

[2:08] Susan Blackwell: So please, we beg you if something lights you up, we begin to encourage you. We beg you, we implore you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:17] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the SPAC file.

[2:22] Susan Blackwell: Oh, the SPAC file.

[2:23] Laura Camien: The SPAC file.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien.

[2:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, doing over there.

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: I'm doing good.

[2:28] Laura Camien: How are you doing?

[2:30] Susan Blackwell: I'm doing well.

[2:30] Laura Camien: You're sounding well.

[2:32] Susan Blackwell: Thank you so much. I want to tell you something. It's silly and I don't have all the details, but it reminded me of your armchair treasure hunters.

[2:41] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: I read this little piece about a teacher, like a university professor who put a little Easter egg in his class syllabus that basically said, There's a place on campus where there's $50 waiting for you.

[2:56] Laura Camien: And he didn't even leave like a bunch of clues. He pretty much told them exactly where it was.

[3:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh like locker number, blah, blah, blah, to see if people would read the syllabus.

[3:06] Laura Camien: And he even told them, read your syllabus.

[3:10] Susan Blackwell: Not one person. He went at the end of the semester to check the locker to see if anyone had.

[3:15] Laura Camien: And there's that, his $50 bill.

[3:19] Susan Blackwell: That is so funny.

[3:20] Laura Camien: That reminds me of a story. I feel like I read this in a Reader's Digest about supposedly a true story written in by a Reader's Digest reader where when their kid left for college, they gave them a Bible, and they were like, you know, take this with you, have a good college experience.

[3:37] Susan Blackwell: And when the kid would reach back and say, I need money. Can you send money? They would say, look to, you know, John chapter 3, 16, and tucked into those chapter and verses, there was money.

[3:50] Laura Camien: But the kid would be like, Oh, and so they knew that the kid was not reading the Bible.

[3:56] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. That's what you get for giving your kid a Bible. Nobody wants to read your syllabus.

[4:03] Laura Camien: It's so funny. We communicate, we probably over-communicate with the people that we teach and the people that we coach.

[4:09] Susan Blackwell: And bless them. We put a TLDR too long, didn't read at the top of every email. So it's just like, but still, if you said there's a real treat for anyone who reads this entire email, you wonder how many people would.

[4:23] Laura Camien: Apparently, those kids did not. It was really, really funny.

[4:27] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Laura Camien, I've got a spark for you. Would you like?

[4:31] Laura Camien: Oh, I want to hear it.

[4:33] Susan Blackwell: I will receive that spark. What you got?

[4:36] Susan Blackwell: Well, I want to acknowledge first off, I feel like this spark is sort of half-baked, because I feel like I'm still working through it as a human being, and I'm still making connections and I'm still trying to understand it and how I relate to it.

[4:52] Laura Camien: So it's a bit of a spark in progress, if you will.

[4:55] Susan Blackwell: I want to confess something to you now.

[4:56] Laura Camien: Oh, get real close to your mic while you do it.

[4:59] Susan Blackwell: I feel like that description describes almost every spark I share. I'm still working it out.

[5:04] Laura Camien: I literally wrote, I guess they all are really all these sparks. We're just working it out. This is just our way of working it out.

[5:15] Susan Blackwell: Sparks in progress, people. So just to come clean, you know this, Laura, but to come clean with our listeners in a very private and very sort of quiet way, which is commensurate with where I'm at.

[5:31] Laura Camien: I don't want to overstate this.

[5:32] Susan Blackwell: I've been on the struggle bus a bit lately. And there are times in life when things are easier, they're more flowing, maybe we have more energy, that sort of thing.

[5:43] Laura Camien: And then there are times when it's not like that.

[5:46] Susan Blackwell: And I have experienced seasons like this in my life before. And historically, when these seasons have occurred in my life, I go inward.

[5:56] Laura Camien: It is extremely unusual for me to talk about something like this publicly.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: I have a tendency to not discuss things until I really have a fuller understanding of what's going on.

[6:08] Laura Camien: And I have my arms around whatever the thing is.

[6:11] Susan Blackwell: And until then, I usually just kind of keep my own counsel. And then when it's more like if I'm if the metaphor I'm in the little car and I'm passing it or I'm starting to see it in the rearview mirror, when I've come out the other side and even cultivated meaning around it, then I talk about it.

[6:30] Laura Camien: Is that true with Nathan too? Or does he hear some mid-process stuff?

[6:34] Susan Blackwell: Well, I feel like you hear mid-process stuff, Nathan hears mid-process stuff. But just talking about it more publicly, yeah. I really tend to wait until I have cultivated meaning around it.

[6:48] Laura Camien: So this is a little bit of a departure for me. So please enjoy that.

[6:52] Susan Blackwell: So you're saying this is mid-process.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Yes.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: So we're gonna, you know, you might have a eureka right in front of us. Like some things might click.

[7:01] Laura Camien: I would just say that, just to continue my car metaphor, if I'm in the car, I feel like I am like passing through and moving through the tunnel of this. Like I can see a light.

[7:10] Susan Blackwell: So, you know, I'm not like in the darkest thick of it. Like we shouldn't be worried about you.

[7:17] Laura Camien: You're gonna come out the other side of this tunnel.

[7:21] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Let me just say, just to put everyone's mind at ease in case you were not at ease. Mostly people are like, listen, I'm just living my life trying to get through my commute.

[7:32] Laura Camien: But uh I'm totally fine. I'm healthy, everyone is healthy. There's no big event, there's no crisis to report.

[7:38] Susan Blackwell: I'm just experiencing this season in life that I think maybe other people experienced earlier in the pandemic.

[7:46] Laura Camien: I think if I boiled it down to the simplest possible terms, I've been working pretty hard before the pandemic started.

[7:53] Susan Blackwell: And then when March of 2020 kicked in, I double-timed it.

[7:57] Laura Camien: Double-timed it, yes.

[7:59] Susan Blackwell: You talked recently on a podcast, and I don't know if it's aired yet, but you talked recently about these financial flashpoints. It struck fear in me.

[8:09] Laura Camien: I started working even more.

[8:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And then I would say in spring of 2021, I triple-timed it. And it's not sustainable.

[8:16] Laura Camien: That pace, like working at that pace, it's just not sustainable.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: So there's no health crisis there, because sometimes these things, these seasons in life can be precipitated by a variety of things. I'm I'm just fine. I'm just having a time.

[8:33] Laura Camien: Sure, but you're kind of now self-reflecting on what has transpired since March 2020 and maybe the stress and response in your body.

[8:43] Susan Blackwell: That makes so much sense, Suze.

[8:45] Laura Camien: Yeah. Just jumping back, when I think about why I keep my own counsel until I have a more full understanding of something and I've applied meaning to it, I think it's because in some cases, I haven't come up with language yet to talk about it.

[9:00] Susan Blackwell: But I think on a deeper level, it's because I don't want people to think that they cannot rely on me.

[9:06] Laura Camien: And I also don't want it to be viewed as weak.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And if I'm completely honest, I don't want to be perceived as being a low capacity person.

[9:15] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. All that makes so much sense.

[9:17] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And another reason is I think that these seasons seem to swirl around changes that I'm experiencing in life. And I feel like I want to understand it before talking about it or even declaring how I'm gonna calibrate the change.

[9:32] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes sense because sometimes the alternative can be, you know, you talk to someone who's like making a declaration of like, here's what's going on with me, and I think I'm gonna do this to solve it.

[9:43] Susan Blackwell: And then you talk to them four weeks later, and it's something different, and they're just trying something out.

[9:48] Laura Camien: You're like, absolutely. I'd like a more responsive approach rather than a reactive approach.

[9:53] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And so I think that's one of the reasons why I can get sort of quiet. But the here's the problem for the folks around me is when I do go underground and I do get quiet, it can be challenging because sorting out things when you're trying to do so in the bubble of your own thoughts can be tricky.

[10:10] Laura Camien: So it's great to have discussion partners like you, like Nathan, like a therapist, et cetera, like a coach.

[10:15] Susan Blackwell: But I also think it can be potentially confusing for the people around me if they're sort of like, where'd Susan go? You know what I mean?

[10:21] Laura Camien: For sure. And we've all ha been on the receiving end of like, what's wrong? What's wrong? Like I haven't put my finger on it yet, or I'm not able to describe it yet.

[10:32] Susan Blackwell: I don't know how to put language to it.

[10:34] Laura Camien: Yeah. Sometimes it's it's hard to just convince people it's not you. I'm figuring out what it is, and I'll get back to you.

[10:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I can see already that I have had to change some commitments that I can no longer keep.

[10:48] Laura Camien: And I can see how that has been challenging to my identity because I want to be everything to myself and to everyone else, but I just have to reckon with the fact that it's not feasible.

[11:02] Susan Blackwell: And I have been double arrowing myself because of that. For those of you who aren't familiar with this concept, it comes from the Buddhist tradition, uh, which is it's described as the double arrow or the second arrow.

[11:15] Laura Camien: And I've I've been aware of the old double arrow for a while now. I found an article online by Desiree Anderson called The Second Arrow of Suffering, which has helped me to articulate it.

[11:26] Susan Blackwell: So I want to share from this piece written by Desiree Anderson. The Buddhists say that any time we suffer misfortune, two arrows fly our way. Picture yourself walking through a forest. Suddenly you're hit by an arrow. The first arrow is an actual event which can cause pain, but it isn't over yet.

[11:45] Laura Camien: There is a second arrow.

[11:47] Susan Blackwell: The second arrow represents our reaction to the event, the manner in which we choose to respond emotionally. The Buddha explained in life, we can't always control the first arrow. However, the second arrow is our reaction to the first. The second arrow is optional.

[12:04] Laura Camien: So how do you avoid the second arrow?

[12:07] Susan Blackwell: First, notice the first arrow. When you are in emotional pain, allow yourself to feel it. You may notice your arrows in other ways, like frustration, irritation, and emotional or physical pain.

[12:19] Laura Camien: Next, become aware and notice your emotional reaction. Maybe it is a desire to yell or complain to someone. Maybe you get angry with yourself or turn your emotions inward, feeling you're like you're not good enough or that there is something wrong with you.

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: That's my go-to. This is the second arrow. Catch yourself adding more pain and suffering. Finally, give yourself credit for recognizing and avoiding the second arrow.

[12:45] Laura Camien: You are learning a new response. Over time, being aware of this choice and refraining from shooting endless second arrows at ourselves can help free us of much unnecessary suffering. All of that was from an article called The Second Arrow of Suffering by Desiree Anderson.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: Laura, this is precisely what I have been doing. So at first, being confused and not fully understanding why I haven't been able to drive as hard as I have done previously, why I haven't been able to like keep up that grind six and seven days a week. And then feeling bad that I feel that way, feeling bad that I'm not feeling my best. It's just like compounding interest. It just makes me feel worse.

[13:31] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[13:32] Susan Blackwell: Familiar with that, Laura Camien.

[13:34] Laura Camien: Oh God, yes. Yes, just this description. Like first, you have to clean up the second arrow before you can even deal with the first arrow.

[13:43] Susan Blackwell: Or even just dodge it before it even comes your way. So I have recently come across a spark that has been helpful to me to understand the first arrow that I'm experiencing. And further to avoid double arrowing myself. This spark has already provided some guidance and it's brought me some much needed peace. And all of this seems especially timely as we find ourselves in this particular part of the year. This spark was originally recommended to me by Celia Keenan-Bolger back in January of 2021. Remember that leg of the pandemic. Thank you, Celia.

[14:18] Laura Camien: Thank you, Celia.

[14:19] Susan Blackwell: It was re-recommended to me by one of our wonderful group members, Richard Wayne, during this Omicron spike moment that we're having in the pandemic. So Celia and Richard, I want to thank you both for this spark. So this timely spark came in the form of a podcast, which led to a book. The podcast is On Being, hosted by Krista Tippett. And on this particular episode of the show, Krista interviewed the English writer Katherine May about her book, Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times.

[14:53] Susan Blackwell: I am going to read from Catherine's book to begin to explain her concept of wintering. A surprising cluster of novels and fairy tales are set in the snow. Our knowledge of winter is a fragment of childhood, almost innate. All the careful preparations that animals make to endure the cold, foodless months, hibernation and migration, deciduous trees dropping leaves. This is no accident. The changes that take place in winter are a kind of alchemy, an enchantment performed by ordinary creatures to survive. Dormice laying on fat to hibernate, swallows navigating to South Africa, trees blazing out the final weeks of autumn. It is all very well to survive the abundant months of spring and summer. But in winter, we witness the full glory of nature's flourishing in lean times.

Plants and animals don't fight the winter. They don't pretend it's not happening and attempt to carry on living the same lives they lived in the summer. They prepare, they adapt, they perform extraordinary acts of metamorphosis to get them through.

[16:06] Laura Camien: That plants and animals don't fight the winter. They don't pretend it's not happening to attempt to carry on the same lives they lived in the summer. I was like, why the fight? Why the second arrow, Susan?

[16:17] Susan Blackwell: Uh, you know, I'm sorry to say this, but it's top of mind, but I think so much of it goes back to productivity. And as our country evolved and this sort of like, it doesn't really matter what's going on. We are going to push through. So mail will be delivered, rain, sleet, or snow. And um, I'll tell you just a tiny confession. It's an embarrassing one. But um, like sometimes I have very visceral imaginings of what it was like to like live in New York in say turn of the century, horse and carriage and people calling on you, and you know, in very particular ways if you're gonna like visit each other. And I think about when snowfalls, everything like in your home, you just sort of settle in. You settle in, no one's going to be showing up today, no one's going to be doing anything because we're going to wait until this passes. And I have a strange like fantasy about it.

[17:20] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah. Well, you're gonna love the spark then, Laura Camien.

[17:23] Susan Blackwell: I feel it already. I feel it deeply. I'm just like, yes, please. Yes, please. Let me read a little bit more from Katherine May, because this is where I feel like she really gets into it. Wintering is a time of withdrawing from the world, maximizing scant resources, carrying out acts of brutal efficiency and vanishing from sight. But that's where the transformation occurs. Winter is not the death of the life cycle, but it's crucible. It's a time for reflection and recuperation, for slow replenishment, for putting your house in order. Doing these deeply unfashionable things, slowing down, letting your spare time expand, getting enough sleep, resting is a radical act now, but it's essential.

[18:12] Laura Camien: Oh, Katherine May. So the first time that I heard Katherine May's concept of wintering almost exactly a year ago, back in January of 2021, I enjoyed it and I appreciated the beautiful writing. But when I heard it this second time, nearly a year later, when I really needed it and was relating to it, it's like this spark bulb went off above my head. I am not defective. I am not permanently breaking down. I'm just in this very specific season of life. And I was like, oh my fucking God, I'm wintering. It just clicked in my mind, and that little second arrow just began to evaporate. So almost immediately I was just like this sense of ease started to rise up. So thank you, Katherine May. Thank you, thank you.

[19:00] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes. I'm gonna read more from her book. So please enjoy.

[19:03] Laura Camien: Please do.

[19:05] Susan Blackwell: I'm snuggled up over here. Please, everybody, if you can, if you're not driving a car, snug a bug. Catherine writes When you start tuning into winter, you realize that we live through a thousand winters in our lives, some big, some small. I realized that a grand winter had rolled in without my even realizing it. She goes on. Some winters are gradual. Some winters creep up on us so slowly that they have infiltrated every part of our lives before we truly feel them. I also want to add what Catherine shares, which is wintering can happen in the blaze of summer. She is using natural metaphors to describe an emotional state and a process. And while one of Catherine's periods of wintering was brought on by illness, there can be a lot of reasons we enter into seasons of wintering.

[19:57] Laura Camien: So, CamS, insofar as you understand it, have you experienced wintering seasons in your life?

[20:04] Susan Blackwell: 100%. Yes. I think I have also it feels more accurate to say I have fought against wintering.

[20:15] Laura Camien: I was gonna ask you if you've been able to graciously embrace.

[20:15] Susan Blackwell: I'm working on it literally right now because of some life changes and moving. And I felt like it was a really fresh start to, you know, figure out a natural pace for my life, and it might be a little bit slower and give myself some time to sort out all of that. And I think wintering is what needs to happen in order to come out on the other side refreshed and revived and like ready to start a new chapter.

[20:49] Laura Camien: Yeah. But for the most part, I can think of times when I felt a very, very strong desire to winter. And then, to be honest, probably did not grant it to myself.

[21:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, fought it, fought it.

[21:06] Laura Camien: I am with you. Yeah. And there are times when it has felt like an absolute necessity. Again, largely tied to financial commitments that had to be kept. But then there's another version of this where it's just sort of like, this is what I do. And I say yes and I show up and I'm there for everybody. And if it's a money-making thing, of course I take the job and I make the money. There are social times in the social context where it's sort of like if you're invited, then you say yes. Even if you're like, I don't want to do that, I don't want to travel, I don't want to leave the house. Unless you have a real good reason, it's easier. You go along to get along. Those are just two contexts that I can think of where I'm just like, I don't have the capacity. I'm not feeling this, and just fucking pushing through, usually to satisfy somebody else.

[22:04] Susan Blackwell: I think we get sold an idea about momentum in terms of our money-making ability, frankly. Like if you've got momentum, you can't slow down. Like there's always a story about an actor or an actress who's like coming off of five films, and they're like they're on some trajectory for greatness, and they decide to like step off and take a year off or have a baby or go to school.

[22:30] Laura Camien: Go to school.

[22:31] Susan Blackwell: And there's always journalists who will write some shocking tale of like how in the world would they allow themselves that because they have so much momentum.

[22:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:39] Susan Blackwell: And I think we get kind of told that as well. Like you say yes, you say yes. And if you start to say no, the offers are gonna dry up. At least that's a story that I feel like I've been told. And so I was always afraid to slow down for fear that there would be no shifting back into gear when I wanted to.

[23:00] Laura Camien: On the On Being Podcast, there's an exchange between the writer Katherine May and the host Krista Tippett, where Krista says, when you look at these individual words like recuperation, slow replenishment, and even reflection, there's a sense in which everything in our culture inclines us to resist these things. And then Katherine May jumps in and says, and to see rest and the need for rest as shameful, like rest is something that you only ever get forced into, or that it has to be commodified somehow. That rest can only be something that you've paid to do, a fancy retreat or a day at spa. And I think we've just got it all wrong. Rest should be a part of the simple rhythm of our day and of our week and of our year in different ways. I don't think we know what rest even is anymore, to be honest. I think we've lost track of it.

[23:54] Susan Blackwell: In her book, Katherine May talks about how her one of her seasons of wintering that she writes extensively about was kicked off by an illness. Her body mandated that she had to rest. And Krista Tippett on the podcast says, I really recognize myself in some of the ways you described. You were forced to stop. You were forced to go inward, you were forced to slow down and seek replenishment. And I have to say, I recognize what you describe. But I'm trying to take this wintering moment, both the season and in our culture, to try to get really clear in myself who do I want to be on the other side? How I want to live on the other side. She goes on, you say people admired me for how much I got done.

I lapped it up, but felt secretly that I was only trying to keep pace with everyone else. And they seem to be coping better. Krista says, I felt like that all the time for so many years in my life. And then Katherine May says, I sometimes think that's probably the case, and that we all suspect everyone else is doing it much better than we are. And then Krista Tippett says, and we're hiding it. We're hiding it. We're all hiding it from each other. And so feeling more alone with it than we are. And then Katherine May concludes that beat by saying, it's like our dirty secret. And yes. It's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about it on the podcast because I think they're right. I think that there is this sort of belief that we have.

[25:27] Susan Blackwell: It's reinforced on things like social media and the things that we look at and the things that we see, where it looks like everybody is in the most productive summers of their lives. Like everybody is making hay while the sun shines. And so I'm sort of like, oh, it feels shameful to not be able to keep up.

[25:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[25:48] Susan Blackwell: And I'm sick of it. I don't like feeling that way. Hopefully you're getting to the point where you can release that of like that last paragraph where she's saying, like, it's a secret that most people have, that they're not saying that they are struggling to keep up.

[26:04] Laura Camien: Yeah, that everybody is sort of fighting this little battle and keeping it a secret and thinking everybody else has figured it out.

[26:12] Susan Blackwell: So I'm very thankful to Katherine May for providing this exploration and this wintering metaphor so that I slash we can understand it, not be afraid of it, move through it and experience it. And not to get ahead of myself with what do we make of it, but I just want to point out that this is a beautiful book. It's a beautifully written book. And the way that she presents these concepts, I think is very clever. She has arranged her chapters from the prologue, which is set in September through what we think of as the winter months, all the way to the epilogue, which is set in late March.

[26:52] Laura Camien: And I was also fascinated as a writer, because I wouldn't describe this as a self-help book, though it helped me very much. It's more like a memoir where she explores her own life combined with this study of different cultures, various religions, flora, fauna, literature, to see how these things reflect the concept of wintering.

[27:17] Susan Blackwell: And she sort of takes us on her journey. And in doing so, as she gains a greater understanding, we all do. And when was this written? Do you know?

[27:26] Laura Camien: It was written before the pandemic and released, I think, during the pandemic.

[27:32] Susan Blackwell: So I think it's so interesting. Obviously, this is, you know, she'd given great thought to it prior to this pandemic, but it couldn't have been more applicable to this moment where, you know, people found themselves with a slower pace. Some people welcomed it, some people did not welcome it. It didn't mean good things for everyone. It was a very, very, very mixed bag. But as long as we had the time on our hands. Some people chose to really think about what good that could do them to, you know, obviously it doesn't solve the need to bring in money to support your family.

[28:13] Laura Camien: Um, but barring that, you know, can you use this slower pace to better yourself, to feel better about your life, to determine who you want to be, etc.

[28:25] Susan Blackwell: There's a specific example that she talks about in the book. She talks about the challenges her son is having at school, which leads to her decision to remove him from school. There was something about the way that she wrote about school that was so evocative to me. She writes, "How many people found school on utter endurance? Yet many of them believed that our children should endure it too for 14 painful years of their life."

[28:52] Laura Camien: And there's something about the way that I didn't really want to go to school. I mean, my parents worked and they weren't in a position to homeschool me, but I did ask to be homeschooled, and that was not gonna happen.

[29:05] Susan Blackwell: And there's something about this pushing through, like even when you're like, I don't think this is the best choice for me. But the circumstances being what they were, like learning that what you do is you grind through it. There's something for me that's tied into this. Welcome to my therapy session. But when her son was six years old, she took him out of school for a time. And she writes the following passage.

[29:38] Laura Camien: So we took our time and sank into the things we love. We played on the beach and burrowed through the library. We made pirates out of air drying clay and walked in the woods to bring home pine cones and berries. We took the train up to London and visited the Natural History Museum to see the dinosaurs in relative solitude. One particularly cold morning, we took advantage of a hoar frost to make strangely indestructible snowballs. We baked cookies and kneaded pizza dough and played more Minecraft than I would have preferred.

[30:11] Susan Blackwell: Even her description of that, minus the Minecraft, sounds like heaven to me. Oh my God. It seems nearly exactly what I want to be doing with my much needed downtime. I recognize this time as a period where I need to parent myself and say, it's okay to change your choices around commitments that you've outgrown. It's okay to take time for yourself. It's okay to winter. It's okay to make pirates out of self-drying clay. But it can feel risky to me for some reason. But I'm also, there's part of me that's just like, Susan, you must. You must slow down. You must. You absolutely must.

[30:51] Laura Camien: Um, and then the real gift is allowing yourself that time, that exploratory time. When you, when she described what she did for her son, like I had that pang of like, ah, my inner child wants to that. It's something you and I have been talking about recently, this um sort of reparenting our creativity.

[31:12] Susan Blackwell: And I feel like this is right in the pocket of that, that sort of being a good parent to yourself and saying, you know what, it's a snow day today. You're not gonna keep grinding through just in misery. You get to go and read any books you want at the library or go make a fire and crochet or whatever. As a parent, to have that outward perspective to look and say, okay, sweetie, I can see from here what you're doing isn't working for you. We're gonna try something else. First, let's start with exploring like what things bring us joy. Let's start with those basics. How do you feel when you do this? How do you feel when you do that?

[31:54] Laura Camien: And you know, parents, if they're able, want to do that for their kids, if they, you know, are able to do it. And I think what a gift for us to do it for ourselves.

[32:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[32:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:06] Susan Blackwell: That reparenting of our creative, like been thinking about that nonstop and how, you know, if we could have a do-over with our inner creative, that creative being started to show itself at a certain time, was responded to in a certain way, and then went, I'm going back in. It's scary out here, and I don't know if I'm gonna be welcomed or valued, you know, or received with joy. And I'm just now realizing how important it is and how much value we can bring to others by helping them re-establish that relationship with themselves and that part of themselves in a healthy way.

[32:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:52] Susan Blackwell: Wes and I talk about this all the time. We read somewhere that all a child really wants is to see your face light up when they enter a room. And I think about that in relation to our little inner creative, and all it really wants is to know, you know, and to see your face light up when it enters the room.

[33:15] Laura Camien: That says, You're welcome here. We celebrate you, we want you. Come join us. You belong. It says all of those things. And uh, I just feel like it makes me just want to hug all of our little inner artists and say, let us all winter together and figure out what are those things that bring you joy.

[33:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[33:40] Laura Camien: I love that. It's an interesting idea to consider what brings one joy now. Because I do think it changes over the course of a life. Katherine May's exploratory journey of understanding and processing through her winter took her to some very interesting places, some surprising places where she was sort of seeking that joy.

[34:05] Susan Blackwell: She connects with this group of women who bathe in the cold winter waters of the sea.

[34:12] Laura Camien: Woo!

[34:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I know we have a client, Jess Edelstein, who does this as well. And there's all sorts of thought and research around this. I'm simultaneously drawn to this. And also I just don't know that I can hang with it, but the benefits of it seem ridiculous.

[34:30] Laura Camien: Katherine May describes how she begins by only running in and out for a matter of seconds, but she slowly increases her endurance. And she writes, immersion in cold water has been shown to increase levels of dopamine, the neurotransmitter that stimulates the brain's reward and pleasure centers by 250%.

[34:50] Susan Blackwell: A recent study found that regular winter swimming significantly decreased tension and fatigue, as well as negative states associated with memory and mood and improved swimmers' sense of general well-being. It's no surprise then that we felt good, but the effects seem more than physiological. Getting into the sea on days when the temperature hovered around zero was an act of defiance against our own woes. By doing a resilient thing, we felt more resilient.

[35:20] Laura Camien: That circular process of being resilient and feeling resilient kept us afloat. Encountering the extremes of cold drew us both into that most cliched space, the moment, forcibly pulling our minds away from ruminating on the past or the future or tilling over an endless to-do list.

[35:40] Susan Blackwell: We had to tend to our bodies right there, right then, ever watchful that the cold did not encroach too far.

[35:48] Laura Camien: Wow.

[35:49] Susan Blackwell: It's so funny. Again, I'm like simultaneously drawn to it because the benefits of it seem amazing. And also talk about a price of admission. Holy fucking shit.

[36:04] Laura Camien: You know, Suze, there's other ways you can do that too. There was a place that I would used to go to and probably would not go to now because of the way of the world. But you could do the hot plunge and cold plunge.

[36:17] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[36:18] Laura Camien: And it was hard, but it was also so gratifying once you've done it. But it is that adrenaline, the release of endorphins, the heart rate goes up, all of all of it. I just think I mean we have a pond. I literally could walk down the hill.

[36:32] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[36:34] Laura Camien: The thought of that seems insane to me. Absolutely insane. Because there is ice on the pond right now. I mean, this is some little women shit. Like that is that seems insane to me.

[36:45] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[36:48] Laura Camien: But oh wow.

[36:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[36:49] Laura Camien: But for those of us who maybe we're not quite ready, we're not quite up to the challenge of the cold plunge yet. In another section of her book, she processes her wintering in this way. Cooped up in our hives with cold winds blasting at the roof, we are invited into the industry of the dark season when there is nothing else to do but keep our hands moving.

[37:11] Susan Blackwell: Winter is a time for the quiet arts of making, for knitting and sewing, baking and simmering, repairing and restoring our homes. In the high summer, we want to be outside and active. In winter, we are called inside. And here we attend to all the detritus of the summer months when we were too busy to take the necessary care.

[37:33] Laura Camien: Winter is when I reorganize my bookshelves and read all the books I acquired in the previous year and failed to actually read. It is also the time when I reread beloved novels for the pleasure of reacquainting myself with old friends.

[37:46] Susan Blackwell: She goes on. This is for you, Camien. Winter is a time for libraries, the muffled quiet of book stacks and the scent of old pages and dust. In winter, I can spend hours in silent pursuit of a half-understood concept or a detail of history. There is nowhere else to be, after all.

[38:05] Laura Camien: Ding ding ding, Katherine May.

[38:07] Susan Blackwell: This is a ringing my bell.

[38:09] Susan Blackwell: If that didn't sell you, get a load of this passage. One recent study found that knitting can lower blood pressure as much as yoga and can also help to relieve sufferers of chronic pain by releasing serotonin. The charity Knit for Peace conducted research on the health benefits of crafting and found that it had a range of benefits, including maintaining mental sharpness, helping smokers to quit, and reducing loneliness and isolation in the elderly. They went on to argue that craft should be available on prescription. So listen, if the cold plunge isn't your thing, the library, the reading, the crafting, the cooking, the mending, the cleaning, the organizing your bookshelves. Just the idea of allowing time for those things feels so luxurious.

I don't know that it will always be this way for me, but right now I'm just really feeling it. And I don't think it's just because it's winter as we record this. It could be the blaze of summer, and I may still I think you need the restorative qualities of all of this and the rest and the replenishment.

[39:21] Laura Camien: Yeah. I mean, we it's so interesting because we talk about that, those concepts all the time. Rest, replenishing. And here it is, just a confession of how difficult it is to allow ourselves to have it.

[39:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. This whole podcast is built around the idea of refilling your spark files and just replenishing. And it's sort of like, well, Susan, are you gonna walk the walk or just talk the talk? And this goes to authenticity, I feel like, like being having what you think, what you say, and what you do being in alignment. Clear the decks, Babel. Anyway, near the end of her book, in the chapter entitled Thaw, which is such a just love the way that she's ordered this book. In the chapter entitled Thaw, Catherine writes There were times when I thought I probably couldn't write this, that I wasn't up to it, that doing so would bring about some kind of catastrophe of embarrassment just for having the guile to think I had anything to say on the matter.

Once upon a time, this would have engulfed me entirely for a season, and I would have emerged in a year or two shaking my head and starting again. But here I am, and here it is. The only difference, the only reason I finished this is experience. I saw it coming a mile off since you ask, and I looked it in the eye. I greeted it and let it in. I had some tricks up my sleeve, you see. I learned them the hard way. When I started to feel the drag of winter, I began to treat myself like a favored child with kindness and love. I assumed my needs were reasonable and that my feelings were signals of something important. I kept myself well fed and I made sure I was getting enough sleep. I took myself for walks in the fresh air and spent time doing things that soothed me. I asked myself, what is this winter all about? I asked myself, what change is coming.

[41:31] Laura Camien: So this organically leads me to what do we make of it? If you're Katherine May, you spin it into a beautiful book. I just feel like Katherine May really took, I like she just said in that passage, she really took her experience and having to have probably bumped into this lesson on several occasions before she could bring herself to recognize it, to process it, to order it, to get her arms around it, to assign meaning to it, and then have the courage to admit it publicly that you know we go through these seasons in life, and it's natural. And instead of like resisting it and trying to grind through and keep up with these levels, these like I think sometimes unrealistic levels of productivity to take a different path. And I feel like she's just done a beautiful job of bravely illustrating that and showing us just a potential series of alternatives, that it doesn't have to be the way that we've always done it.

[42:38] Susan Blackwell: Another beautiful what do we make of it could be something like lyrics. And I was reminded by an uh listener's comment, the on-being podcast on their website. There was a listener comment, and they shared the last four verses of the song The Rose that was written by Amanda McBroom and sung by Bet Midler. And those lyrics go just remember in the winter, far beneath the bitter snows lies the seed that with the sun's love in the spring becomes the rose. And it goes back to Katherine May's point that this is it's not the death, it's not representing death in the cycle of life. It is the crucible, it is the transformation, and it is a necessary part of being a human and being alive.

[43:31] Laura Camien: Yes. Amen to that. On a personal level, I have this sense more than ever that I have to continue to be very clear about how I use my time. I need to engage with things that I am hell yes about, me now, not me two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. So that can mean changing choices that past me agreed to. It can mean scaling back, it can mean dialing up rest. I mean real rest, not staring numbly at a screen, which sometimes can be uh resistance for me or revenge, bedtime procrastination, which I learned about from Laura Camien. Um it also for me, I think means engaging in activities that are genuinely nourishing to me. And those can take the form of many things. One of the things she talks about in her book, and I really like I just lit up and I was like, that, that, that is like reading ghost stories, reading YA, curling up on the couch, having fires in the fireplace, getting my crocheting back out, working with you, Laura Camien.

I don't mean I'm like, well, I guess I'm not gonna work for a few months. Of course not. It means doing work that I love with people that I love, like our creativity coaching clients, just like the nutritious, delicious stuff, and how good that feels. How good it feels, letting other stuff fall away, and trusting that as long as I draw breath and continue to respond to myself compassionately, that spring and summer and fall and other winters will come again. And that is my spark.

[45:21] Laura Camien: Suze, that is so beautiful. Oh, it's so beautiful. Uh, the image that is playing over and over in my mind is that one of truly caring for yourself and asking, what do we need today? How much rest? What kind of nourishment? What sort of warmth are we in need of? And that step alone feels so meaningful and like it's the one we all skip.

[45:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It doesn't really matter what we need. We've got this stuff on the to-do list. So if we can shift it to what do we need to tend to ourselves, our creative beings? I really love this part. A reasonable work day, not working from the morning until 10 o'clock at night. Like just all of that. So that means that things have to fall away. And that means sometimes you have to grieve that and be like, well, that's that's that's where we are now. And those choices, like that resonates for me too. There's a couple things in my life right now that I'm like, yeah. Did I say yes to that based on five years ago? Me who really wanted to do that, never did. So I should do it now. I don't know. I don't know that that's still important to me to do.

[46:43] Laura Camien: Yeah. So just examining those choices, what really is filling up our dance card? It's a beautiful spark, Suze. I can't recommend that book highly enough. I listened to it, the audiobook, and I read it because that's how I do. I listen and I I read off the page at the same time. And the writing is just beautiful. It's such a great exploration that Katherine May has embarked upon. And if you just want to add a little starter kit on being with Krista Tippett with the guest Katherine May discussing wintering is also lovely.

[47:18] Susan Blackwell: And is the audiobook version just as warm and delicious as I think it might be audibly?

[47:25] Laura Camien: Yes. And she really goes on a journey. Like she goes to different countries. She is exploring different cultures. We're talking about druids. We're talking about saunas and we're talking about cold plunges and door mice. Siestas, do they make any kind of uh break? I don't do they make an approach. I don't recall that, but definitely like crafting and flyers and you know. So it's a it's a lovely book, and it's a it's a delicious book to read in the winter.

[47:59] Susan Blackwell: Thank you so much for this spark.

[48:01] Laura Camien: You're welcome. I feel emotional.

[48:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, of course. That makes total sense. I feel like it just a tiny coming out that I'm in a wintering.

[48:11] Laura Camien: That you're in a wintering.

[48:12] Susan Blackwell: I think it's so okay.

[48:15] Laura Camien: It's so much more than okay. I think it should be celebrated. And if we all like had this shared language that we could understand, you know, when someone asks, like, do you want to get lunch? You're like, I'm I'm I'm in a bit of a wintering right now. But let me swing back around with you when things thaw.

[48:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I'll see you at the thaw.

[48:36] Laura Camien: Oh, so friends, that's it. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen to me. If there is a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, you can email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, the sparkfile.com. We will even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission first.

[49:08] Susan Blackwell: First, we'd love to hear a creative risk that you have taken recently. You can follow us on social media at the sparkfile. And if you have a moment, be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really truly helps other listeners to find us. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope that you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, I just want you in the dead of winter to walk up to a frozen lamppost and just stick your tongue to it. Just try it. Just as an experiment.

[49:41] Laura Camien: I thought you were gonna offer them a cold plunge.

[49:44] Susan Blackwell: Walk up to like a half frozen lake and jump off a long pier. Yeah, that too. If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know you gotta take it and make it.

[50:08] Laura Camien: Bye.

[50:15] Susan Blackwell: Happy wintering.

[50:18] Laura Camien: Happy wintering.

[50:19] Susan Blackwell: When I bop into something that inspires me. I dump it in the sparkfiles. Could be something that I wanna take or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark file. Sparkile. I jump into my sparkfil. Let's open up the spark f