This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] The Sparks File podcast contains profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] And this episode also includes discussion of suicide.

[0:07] Take care when listening.

[0:13] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark files.

[0:31] I jump into my spark files to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:31] I pump it in my spark file.

[0:30] Spark files.

[0:31] I jump into my spark.

[0:36] Let's open up the spark file.

[0:40] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:47] I'm Laura Camien.

[0:49] And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:57] If you're an OG member of The Spark File community, hey, welcome back, Sparkler.

[1:02] If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, new friend.

[1:05] Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:12] But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a Sparks File?

[1:12] A Spark File is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:21] If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:29] But don't despair, we're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:46] Or a discussion that actually asks for whom the creative bell tolls.

[1:51] Spoiler alert, it tolls for thee.

[1:56] Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:01] And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:05] That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:09] So many sparks.

[2:10] So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:15] Without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:22] Laura Camien: Susie B.

[2:24] Huzzah Haza!

[2:26] How are you doing?

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: I'm good.

[2:27] It's Sparks Day, which always feels fresh and fine to me.

[2:30] How are you doing?

[2:32] Laura Camien: It feels fantastic.

[2:35] You know, I went to a little cafe this morning to do some writing.

[2:40] And love upon entering, I said hello to the woman there.

[2:45] I said, Hi, how are you doing?

[2:46] And she said, you know, I can't complain.

[2:49] And I said, Neither can I.

[2:52] Neither can I.

[2:53] Not one thing to complain about.

[2:55] Doing good.

[2:55] Susan Blackwell: That's nice.

[2:56] Out in the world, and people are doing good.

[2:58] That's great.

[2:59] It's a beautiful day.

[3:00] Laura Camien: It is autumn of 2022.

[3:04] It's been a really, really pretty autumn.

[3:07] It is just like all the autumn colors and the crunch and the crisp.

[3:13] It's been great.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: I know you love this weather, Laura, key and crispy weather.

[3:18] Laura Camien: I love it.

[3:19] Crispy, crunchy.

[3:20] Would you live someplace where you could have crispity crunchity autumn?

[3:24] Susan Blackwell: I would.

[3:25] I would.

[3:26] Now, my beautiful lifetime partner, Wesley Day, would not.

[3:31] He would not have that.

[3:32] So we've got to split the difference on the thermostat, basically.

[3:37] Laura Camien: The thermostat of love.

[3:39] Susan Blackwell: Well, we're enjoying it.

[3:40] We're enjoying it.

[3:41] It's been loving it.

[3:43] It's been beautiful.

[3:45] Laura Camien: It's beautiful.

[3:46] And we get to record a spark today.

[3:48] And uh, should we jump in?

[3:51] Susan Blackwell: Let's spark it up.

[3:52] All right.

[3:53] Today I'm sparking you.

[3:55] I'm excited.

[3:57] Laura Camien: Sparky back.

[3:58] So, Laura, you will recall, and maybe some of our listeners will recall that back in June of 2021, I shared the spark that I titled Write Like Your Parents Are Dead.

[4:10] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah, you did.

[4:11] Susan Blackwell: I don't mean to be provocative, but if you haven't heard that spark, you're welcome to go back, give it a listen or don't.

[4:16] If you don't want to do that, I'm gonna catch you up now.

[4:19] So when I titled that spark, Write Like Your Parents Are Dead, I didn't mean like write about your parents being dead or that I wished your parents harm.

[4:28] No, no, no, no, no.

[4:29] What I meant with that provocative title is as we approach our creative work, I think Laura and I are both interested in cultivating a mindset that allows us to be as free and self-expressed as possible with inhibitions released.

[4:44] In our world, there are lots of folks who have a desire to spin their lived experience into their creative self-expression, us included.

[4:52] And we've done so in many things we've made.

[4:54] The musical's title of the show, and now hear this, Laura's play, Echo Speaks, is a great example of that.

[5:01] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[5:02] Susan Blackwell: We do it.

[5:03] We like to do that.

[5:04] We like to do that.

[5:05] Talks and films and curriculum and stories and podcast episodes.

[5:09] I may even do a little bit of it today.

[5:11] But our lived experience shows up in all sorts of places.

[5:15] Laura, have you ever put your lived experience into a screenplay that you made of a movie?

[5:20] Laura Camien: Well, my short film called Foreclosure.

[5:23] Yeah.

[5:23] It um was based on some things that happened to my sister.

[5:27] Not to me, but yeah, to my sister.

[5:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[5:30] Oh, this is great.

[5:31] This is a great example of like, is that your story to tell?

[5:35] Did you check in with your sister before you told that story, Laura Camien?

[5:39] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah, I told I did.

[5:41] You know, this topic fascinates me because I don't think you and I land in the same place.

[5:45] Not, and that's not bad.

[5:47] That's good.

[5:47] Susan Blackwell: No, it's just a very personal thing.

[5:49] Laura Camien: It's just different, it's different places.

[5:52] But yeah, I did talk to my sister about it.

[5:54] She didn't mind one bit.

[5:55] Susan Blackwell: Well, there you go.

[5:56] Green light.

[5:56] Go ahead.

[5:57] I love it.

[5:58] Laura Camien: So this desire to spin our lived experience into self-expression can present a conundrum for creatives, as Laura and I were just bantering.

[6:06] It's a very personal decision about where that boundary line lies.

[6:10] But our stories don't exist in a vacuum.

[6:13] Our stories often feature other people.

[6:15] Those people might be Laura's sister or parents or friends or people we've loved and lost to breakups or deaths.

[6:23] So how do we tell our version of events and still represent those folks in our work?

[6:29] And further, how do we tell our stories in a way that doesn't scandalize innocent bystanders like our kids or our grandparents or our work colleagues or our fellow parishioners?

[6:40] Laura Camien: Very real.

[6:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[6:41] It is.

[6:42] You gotta you you just have to, I feel like come to terms with it for yourself, not to not to put the spark in front of the horse.

[6:50] But as as you all listen to this and Laura, as you listen to this spark that I'm about to share, see where you fall on it.

[6:56] Because that's the most important thing is that you have clarity, conscious clarity that you can refer back to.

[7:02] And you feel at peace with it.

[7:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:05] Exactly.

[7:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[7:06] So something I didn't focus on last time, but I think it's worth saying now.

[7:10] This isn't just about spinning your lived experience into your creative self-expression either.

[7:15] In both fiction and nonfiction work, you may want to create things that include aspects that may be considered less acceptable in polite society.

[7:23] For instance, maybe you want your creativity to include themes around sex or violence or random weirdness.

[7:29] And you may not have lived it, but maybe you want to reference it or have your central protagonist experience it.

[7:36] But maybe you intuit that your Aunt Fanny wouldn't approve of that.

[7:39] That's also included in the spark, which is why I'm titling it Write Like Your Parents Are Dead Again.

[7:46] Laura Camien: Nice.

[7:47] Susan Blackwell: Is it nice, Laura?

[7:49] Maybe not, but I'm not worried about what other people think.

[7:51] I'm worried about what speaks to me.

[7:54] Laura Camien: I might be a little worried about what other people think, but here we go.

[7:57] Susan Blackwell: So I said it before.

[7:59] We just said it a few seconds ago.

[8:01] This is not blanket advice that I'm doling out to everybody.

[8:10] This spark is just meant to get you thinking about what is right for you.

[8:14] But write like your parents are dead is actually an option suggested by Anne Lamott in her wonderful book on writing, Bird by Bird.

[8:22] If you want to learn more about that book, we did an episode of the podcast on it a while ago.

[8:26] Also, if you want to learn more about it, you should just read the book.

[8:29] It's awesome.

[8:29] Laura Camien: So good.

[8:30] Susan Blackwell: To bring you back up to speed, Anne says, We write to expose the unexposed.

[8:36] If there is one door in the castle you have been told not to go through, you must.

[8:42] Otherwise, you'll just be rearranging furniture and rooms you've already been in.

[8:46] Most humans are dedicated to keeping that one door shut.

[8:51] But the writer's job is to see what's behind it, to see the bleak, unspeakable stuff, and to turn the unspeakable into words, not just into any words, but if we can into rhythm and blues.

[9:04] And she goes on.

[9:05] You can't do this without discovering your own true voice.

[9:09] And you can't find your true voice and peer behind the door and report honestly and clearly to us if your parents are reading over your shoulder.

[9:17] They are probably the ones who told you not to open that door in the first place.

[9:21] You can tell if they're there because a small voice will say, Oh, whoops, don't say that.

[9:27] That's a secret, or that's a bad word, or don't tell anyone you jack off.

[9:32] They'll all start doing it.

[9:34] So you have to breathe or pray or do therapy to send them away.

[9:38] Write as if your parents are dead.

[9:41] Thank you, Anne Lamott.

[9:43] Laura Camien: Thank you, Anne Lamott.

[9:45] Susan Blackwell: Now, that is just one person's point of view, but it is a very informed point of view.

[9:49] It's the point of view of someone who has created extensively from their lived experience.

[9:54] Laura Camien: Suze, I see you taking notes over there.

[9:55] What are you thinking?

[9:56] Susan Blackwell: I have so many thoughts.

[9:58] I mean, I'll try to chime in at the appropriate times, but I think just to add on to what you're saying about hope for our listeners.

[10:08] I would hope that people check within themselves to see if this idea of X person might be upset, yeah, or this might disturb someone, or this isn't my story to tell.

[10:20] If any of those things are keeping you from creating, then that's something to contend with.

[10:27] Because I do think sometimes people can entangle themselves into stories about who this might hurt, or who might be upset, or who isn't gonna like it the way they did it, or the way they told it, or the way they were represented, etc.

[10:41] And that can grow into a complete blockade of your creative absolutely.

[10:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[10:49] This is actually interesting because recently, Laura, there was something that you had made fully made fully.

[10:58] And when it got to the point of the sharing of the light of it, you were like, no, I'm not gonna do that.

[11:03] Laura Camien: That's right.

[11:04] Susan Blackwell: And I also know you to be someone as evidenced by this very day that we're experiencing right now, who it's not a block because you keep on making things, and you just you you had you made a judgment call.

[11:16] Laura Camien: Yeah, you made a judgment call about the sharing of the light of a single thing that you had made, which is different than what you're talking about, which is allowing all of those stories, and might somebody be mad at me, or might somebody might somebody clutch their pearls at this becoming a whole thing that stops you from making stuff and sharing it.

[11:38] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[11:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:40] And that thing, that case in point that you just mentioned, like I just determined this is not the moment that it things are a too fresh, yeah, and a person is going through something right now, and now's not the time.

[11:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but that doesn't mean that I won't ever share that.

[11:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:58] But the other thing I think about Susan, I don't know what this I really don't know what gave me this compulsion at that at this age, but um, as many of you know, like I am a a young divorcee, or I was young when I became a divorce, I should say, way back when.

[12:17] And this is one of the conversations with this kind and wonderful human being who I you know cared deeply for, but was not meant to be married to.

[12:27] One of the conversations I remember having, I had written some stuff in my journal, and I was like, I think I'm I think I'm feeling like I might be a writer and I've got some things to say.

[12:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:39] Laura Camien: And he was um a more religious person than I.

[12:43] And um I said to him, like, for example, here are some things that I have written about, like in my journal.

[12:51] And I fear that the church, quote unquote, the church that you are uh attending or any other church, like may not be happy with it.

[12:59] And he expressed that's true.

[13:03] It he wouldn't be happy, and like, why would you write about that?

[13:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:08] Laura Camien: And something clicked into place, and I was like, and why would I be held back from writing about that?

[13:14] I'm I think I'm out.

[13:15] Like I can't live in a world where I can't express what is happening inside of me.

[13:23] And whether or not I share that with that expression with the world is something else, but I don't want to be blocked from from putting it down on paper.

[13:30] Susan Blackwell: I'll say that.

[13:31] Laura Camien: So young, nearly divorcee Laura Camien had a growing realization that you were like, I am not gonna prioritize this relationship over my self-expression.

[13:43] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and I'm not gonna prioritize the pleasing of some people in an organization, religious or otherwise.

[13:50] Laura Camien: Yeah, and prioritize their thoughts and feelings before I even begin to express myself.

[13:57] Susan Blackwell: No.

[13:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, girl, you know I'm with you.

[13:59] Susan Blackwell: You know I'm with you.

[14:01] Laura Camien: Uh a young burgeoning awareness, how I love it so.

[14:05] Susan Blackwell: So, in researching the spark, I found a dissenting opinion written by the novelist David Wellington.

[14:11] Laura Camien: David wrote a blog post back in 2018 titled, Bad Advice, Colonel Write Like Your Parents Are Already Dead.

[14:18] Susan Blackwell: And in that blog, David wrote, It's good to be a little libertine in your choices as a writer. You want drama and excitement and a little adrenaline to spice up your stories. But there are two reasons I think this is, if not terrible advice, at least worth questioning.

[14:35] Laura Camien: The first is that your parents, actually, let's open this up and say your loved ones, regardless of their legal relationships to you, are the best support staff you're going to get. They can nurture you and be your best first readers, and their stories can inform what you write.

[14:50] Susan Blackwell: So then David goes on to share this lovely specific anecdote about how supportive his father was towards David and towards David's writing, which is so beautiful.

[15:00] Laura Camien: Wonderful.

[15:01] Susan Blackwell: But we don't all have loved ones as accepting and supportive as David's dad. Not to say that our loved ones may not outright object to our work. They may simply not understand elements of our work or how to discuss creative work in general.

[15:17] Laura Camien: So David makes another point that I find potentially more compelling.

[15:22] Susan Blackwell: David says, Strictures and limitations are what make art great. Most great stories come from some kind of artificial rule, some boundary set up against the author's progress by forces they couldn't control.

[15:36] Laura Camien: He then says, There's a reason why Monty Python movies aren't as good as the television sketches.

[15:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm not sure I agree with you there, David. But David says, forced to work within arbitrary rules of censorship on state media, the pythons were forced to go absurd. They couldn't just make endless jokes about shit and fucking, so they had to get surreal.

[15:56] Laura Camien: In closing, David writes, don't write like your parents are already dead. Write the story that's going to make your father or mother or wife or cousin or crazy best friend proud of you.

[16:07] Susan Blackwell: So Laura and I have talked extensively about the benefits of creative limitations. I love I love a good creative limitation. And with the right creative limitations, I think both of us have really cited examples where we feel like we thrive.

[16:23] Laura Camien: But for me, I just don't believe that every piece I create benefits from the creative limitation that the piece is aiming on some level to make my loved ones proud.

[16:33] Susan Blackwell: You know, I've got to go with you on like David. I think it depends on who your loved ones are.

[16:39] Laura Camien: And I mean, I have a thousand thoughts about this because I'm just like, yeah, it sounds like he doesn't have a lot of family issues that he needs to explore. That's wonderful, and that's great for David. But it does not discount all of the other healing that people are working on when they are writing about, you know, their family stories or their life stories.

[16:59] Susan Blackwell: And I also would like to, if you don't mind, just split one hair here a little bit.

[17:03] Laura Camien: I'm just put this hair.

[17:05] Susan Blackwell: Split it. You know, I am never advocating for let's name the names and take down the people.

[17:14] Laura Camien: Right, of course.

[17:15] Susan Blackwell: We're talking, or at least I'm talking about fictionalizing things that are inspired by people, places, and events of your life. And when someone watches it, they may be like, Well, that seems strikingly like me. But they're not named after that person. They're not actually attacking that person or calling them out.

[17:40] Laura Camien: It's all if that person wants to be like, I think you wrote about me in that nasty little scene right there, great. They're welcome to call attention to it. But the rest of the world is not gonna know that was that woman you worked with in the office seven years ago.

[17:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. So I want to ask David, what kind of stories would make your parents proud? Like one where there isn't any conflict.

[18:04] Laura Camien: I don't, I I mean, I'm just curious.

[18:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's a great question. I have two thoughts. One is when we say write like your parents are dead, we mean create like your parents are dead.

[18:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[18:17] Susan Blackwell: Again, that's not blanket advice, but the concept is whether you're a painter, whatever medium you work in, creating with as much freedom as possible.

[18:29] Laura Camien: The other piece is I just feel like David's very I think loving, I think this comes from a real loving place, and very well-meaning suggestion borders on invoking the air freshener vampire.

[18:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and having that air freshener vampire sit on your shoulder while you create.

[18:48] Laura Camien: Your comment reminds me of that. Like, what would make David's parents proud? Like, what is David Amy has in David's work?

[18:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So y'all may have heard me talk about the Air Freshener Vampire. I wrote her into a little song called Die Vampire Die in the musical title of show. And generally speaking, a vampire is any person, thought, feeling, memory that impedes your creative self-expression. And specifically, the air freshener vampire, who to me looks like my mom. She's got a perm. It's very sweet, very well-intentioned, looks like my mom. It has wings that look like my mom crocheted them out of some yarn she got on sale at Walmart.

[19:26] Laura Camien: And Cam's listeners, I hope you know by now, I fight hard for the powers of good. And I'm also a bona fide weirdo. I cuss. I used to impulsively lick people on the face. And when I have a pure impulse to say something weird or do something weird, that's when that air freshener vampire might show up.

[19:46] Susan Blackwell: And it comes bearing a can of pine fresh vanilla island breeze, renews it. And it just sprays me and tries desperately to cloak the smell of my weirdness with its synthetic fresh scent. It tries to keep me from getting the stink of my weirdness on anybody else.

[20:05] Laura Camien: Or getting onto my loved ones.

[20:06] Susan Blackwell: That's right. But if those delicious weirdo impulses get sanitized away when I'm trying to express my creativity, I don't count that as a win, even if it makes my loved ones feel proud and comfortable.

[20:18] Laura Camien: So I just named my mom when referencing the air freshener vampire. And I want to acknowledge my mom is not the judgiest mom. But when we were little, I got the message loud and clear about what was acceptable and unacceptable to talk about and create about.

[20:35] Susan Blackwell: Story time.

[20:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:50] Susan Blackwell: And someone asked me what I did that day because you know, we just sort of ran around in the neighborhood.

[20:57] Laura Camien: In the olden times.

[20:59] Susan Blackwell: In the olden times, like people, we were not really being, you know, watched closely, but we were good kids, but we just wandered around like one of those family circus cartoons of Billy's dotted line. Do you remember those?

[21:11] Laura Camien: Old timers.

[21:12] Susan Blackwell: Uh just going from thing to thing, just just doing moving towards whatever tugged at our curiosity. So someone, my mom or my dad said, What did you do today? And I said, We drew pictures of naked people. And we had some little group of neighborhood kids. Had we had this temporary fort made out of a kind of this box that we crawled into in this band this empty field.

[21:37] Laura Camien: Yes.

[21:38] Susan Blackwell: Glamour. And we crawled in there, and on the walls of that box, we drew a naked man and a naked woman. And I asked what we did that day. That's what I said. We drew pictures of naked people. And I remember Laura, this record scratch and silence at the table.

[21:49] Laura Camien: Naked people.

[21:59] Susan Blackwell: What? And then I'm not sure if it was my mom or my dad, but one of them said, you know, you should draw pictures of nice things like flowers.

[22:10] Laura Camien: I remember it so clearly.

[22:12] Susan Blackwell: You should draw pictures of nice things like flowers. So I heard that message. And sometime after that, my parents put me into private art lessons where I learned how to paint.

[22:25] Laura Camien: You guessed it.

[22:26] Susan Blackwell: Nice things? Flowers. So it was a it's a mixed message though. Drawing, yes, yes. Creativity, yes. Naked people, no, no, no. No, we don't do that. So and and listen, my parents had a point. It was probably not age appropriate for a five-year-old or a six-year-old to be drawing naked people, or at least if you're gonna draw them and you're gonna bring it up at the dinner table, have a have a conversation, an age-appropriate conversation about it.

[22:57] Laura Camien: That's honest.

[22:58] Susan Blackwell: So um, but I remember just loud and clear getting the message like there's some things you don't create about.

[23:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[23:08] Susan Blackwell: No, yeah.

[23:09] Laura Camien: So cut to about 11 years ago. I'm a grown-ass adult, clearly, and I interviewed Billy Crude Up for Side by Side by Susan Blackwell on Broadway.com. And Billy is famously the voice of the MasterCard Priceless campaign.

[23:24] Susan Blackwell: Do you know that? Like, uh I don't know if you all remember that, where it's sort of like um a trip to the Berkshires, $500, new hiking boots, $50, a weekend with your family, priceless. It's one of those things. But so I had written and I made Billy record my outgoing voicemail.

[23:44] Laura Camien: Okay, and this is this is what I made him read in his famous MasterCard voice.

[23:50] Susan Blackwell: A suitcase containing 65 pounds of baboon noses, street value, $33,000. The haunted ruby encrusted skull of a 17th century monk $450,000. One ounce of powdered unicorn ejaculate, one million dollars. The voicemail you're about to leave Susan Blackwell, priceless.

[24:10] Laura Camien: So I have him record this.

[24:12] Susan Blackwell: That's awesome. We film the interview. He leaves that message on my outgoing voicemail. I totally forget about it. And then I get this voicemail message from my mom, and she had just heard that outgoing message, and she I'm gonna try to do it as accurately as I can recollect it. She, so there's a silence, and then she goes, uh okay.

[24:37] Laura Camien: And if you're a sensitive person, you can use that uh as evidence that we don't use words like ejaculate outside of a doctor's office, and we certainly don't put them on our outgoing voicemail, or our mom might get frosty with us.

[24:54] Susan Blackwell: And even writing about this, I was like, uh, does my mom listen to this podcast? Do I need to soften this or not call her out or not use the word ejaculate again? I've now said it three times so far.

[25:05] Laura Camien: Who knows when I'll stop saying ejaculate, Laura Camien.

[25:08] Susan Blackwell: Will you tell your mom about this before it airs?

[25:11] Laura Camien: No, that's kind of new though. I mean, I hear what you're saying, but I also know you to be the person who's like, I ran all of this by my mother.

[25:13] Susan Blackwell: I ran all of this by this person.

[25:24] Laura Camien: I feel like uh the reason why I could say no with such uh with just like, you know, just absolute resolve is because I'm pretty sure she doesn't know how to find a podcast.

[25:37] Susan Blackwell: She couldn't locate it, she wouldn't know how to play it if she did find it.

[25:41] Laura Camien: So it's a little bit right like your parents don't know how to find a podcast.

[25:46] Susan Blackwell: Yes, amen to that.

[25:47] Laura Camien: Yeah, that yeah, that works too.

[25:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But it's also I do think that this whatever you want to call it, this rules of engagement for each artist, I do think that they change over time.

[26:00] Laura Camien: Yeah, and maybe mine are changing as well.

[26:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting to me, and I don't want to jump your spark if you if you're gonna hit on this, but where I think some people get tripped up is the idea of truth, in terms of I need to tell the truth about what happened.

[26:22] Laura Camien: And the impossibility of that.

[26:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes, this is where I think it blocks some people creatively. Because it's not possible to tell the truth about it. At the very best, you will tell your recollection of that truth, which is scraps of memories you have pulled back together into some semblance of a story that makes sense. It will always be your version of that.

[26:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[26:52] Susan Blackwell: And so I think that's you know, I'll get feisty about this because I feel feisty about it. There is no truth.

[27:01] Laura Camien: So we're we're like creating some target that is not possible to hit.

[27:17] Susan Blackwell: Tell me what impeccable means. Like I want to, this is why for something where I do think my parents would hear it, or it's a story that I've that not an episode of the podcast that I've just sort of cobbled together, but something really crafted.

[27:31] Susan Blackwell: If I'm referencing, say my mom, I'd want to check in with her and say, it is my understanding based on what you've told me that this fact, fact, fact, fact are your lived experience and be impeccable about that.

[27:44] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[27:44] Susan Blackwell: And if she's like all of those except number four, I'm like, then we'll cut number four.

[27:50] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[27:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. That's what I mean.

[27:51] Laura Camien: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense in the if you're creating something where that's possible.

[27:56] Susan Blackwell: I contend that many a person has cut things from a story because they are unflattering. And we're forgetting the reality that in all of our stories, people can do something bad and not be something bad.

[28:19] Laura Camien: So if you want to tell a story about, remember that time Laura snapped and said just the meanest thing, just the meanest thing.

[28:29] Susan Blackwell: If you write that story about that and you include that moment, and you include what happens later, which is the character of Flora feels terrible about what she'd done, circles back and corrects it, has a moment of redemption. So you're not, I could go back in and be like, I don't want you to show that part where I snapped and said where I said something really ugly. That's not very nice. But without it, you don't have a story. Without you don't have a story of redemption without something that needed to be redeemed.

[29:06] Laura Camien: Well, I think this is something that I've heard you talk about a fair amount. How writers, I'll focus on writers right now.

[29:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[29:14] Laura Camien: How we so don't want to put our characters, even if they're fictional characters, through tough things that will pull obstacles and real like heroes' journey stuff, will smooth the path for them.

[29:29] Susan Blackwell: And it's sort of like you are not making this fun for your reader, your listener, your we'll not only pull our punches in terms of what happens to our character, but we will not allow our character to show what is a true range of humanity? Which means, yeah, sometimes they make mistakes, they say something, they fuck up, and it is the forgiving of that character that allows us to heal. If we remove that from the story, and we're like, we had a perfect human being, and look at this, they responded to everything perfectly, and they arrive at more perfection.

[30:13] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[30:14] Susan Blackwell: We're not healing anything. We're not talking truthfully about anything. And that's boring.

[30:19] Laura Camien: And it's not.

[30:21] Susan Blackwell: But it gets complicated when you're drawing from real life. People in your life.

[30:26] Laura Camien: That's right.

[30:27] Susan Blackwell: So I just want to say it doesn't have to look like that your loved ones are going to disown you or hold a mock funeral for you if you express yourself in your art. Though there are certainly people who have contended and are contending with that. And if you're listening and that's happened to you, I am so sorry. That is terrible.

[30:45] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[30:47] Susan Blackwell: The way typically that this manifests can be a much more subtle. That if you're not conscious of it, it can form a little vampire that can stand between you and your creative self-expression and prevent you from sharing all sorts of elements. Things that to Laura's point might make your work much more vibrant and fun.

[31:10] Laura Camien: I mean fun, I don't mean fun, like a joy ride, but much more, much more exciting for people who eventually take in your work.

[31:17] Susan Blackwell: And potentially more healing.

[31:18] Laura Camien: And potentially more healing.

[31:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So me speaking for myself, I want to use many words, including not to write like my parents are dead.

[31:34] Laura Camien: There, I'm choosing to write like they're not listening to this podcast.

[31:36] Susan Blackwell: But that's just me.

[31:37] Laura Camien: That helps too.

[31:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So that helps too if you're like, write this play as though your parents aren't gonna come. Right play like your parents aren't gonna come. You know, you can deal with it later, but or decide to hold the play until later. Or do the play in another state.

[31:52] Laura Camien: Do the play in another state and they're not coming.

[31:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yep.

[31:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[31:55] Susan Blackwell: But it again, every artist, it is incumbent upon every artist to set these guidelines for themselves with the acknowledgement that it can evolve over time.

[32:05] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[32:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Can I mention one other thing? Like not just like your parents being dead, you could choose to write certain things as though it'll be published after you're dead.

[32:18] Laura Camien: That's a more graceful way of write like this is going to be published posthumously.

[32:23] Susan Blackwell: Because like Paul Newman's, I don't know if you read much, I haven't read the book, but I've read about the book that Paul Newman did a bunch of interviews, all of which edited into a book, published after he died. Now, many of these articles are really interesting because his kid there his kids are being asked, like, when your dad wrote about the sex room that he and your mom had, how did that make you feel? And they were like, We were delighted. It was so fun that they handled it in this way, and we knew their relationship to be this and that.

[32:56] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[32:58] Susan Blackwell: Joanne Woodward, apparently, what did she call it? Oh shoot. I'm gonna the sex hut or something like that. She decorated, like she set up a whole bedroom for them just to kind of have romps in when they wanted to get away from the kids.

[33:12] Laura Camien: And get away from the kids.

[33:13] Susan Blackwell: And the kids were like, Yeah, there were locks on that, on that room. And they they had such fond and happy memories. Like it didn't bother them at all. But it is one way you might deal with, like, oh no, you know, I just don't want all this to come out while I'm alive. Great. Hold it till later.

[33:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, I like it.

[33:33] Susan Blackwell: One of the main reasons I wanted to revisit this topic is because of someone I've talked about several times on this podcast, David Sedaris. So just to bring up to speed quickly, David is another person who has written extensively about his life, which of course includes his loved ones. And while he has fun, funny, celebrated siblings that he loves to write about, it's not always a love fest. He has written very honestly about his sister Tiffany, their conflicts, her suicide. By the time she took her own life, she and her brother David had not spoken in eight years. And in his masterclass, he talks about how the very last time he saw her before she died, right before he was going to do a signing after one of his book readings, she showed up at the an open stage door, saw him, and called out to him.

And in response, he told the handlers at the event to close the door. And that was the last time he saw his sister alive. And the way that he writes about that is not particularly flattering towards either of them. And even though he's known for being a humorist, he doesn't undercut it with a joke. And it feels very authentic and true and human.

[34:46] Laura Camien: So the thing that's re-sparked in me is David had a new book out called Happy Go Lucky. And when he was promoting the book, he was on NPR's Fresh Air talking to Terry Gross, and he said something that struck me about how writing about his father has changed since his dad's death in May of 2021. This is what David said. I think what changed was there's a real person and then there's the character of that person. And when you're in a story or an essay, you're the character of who you are. My father was not a good person, but he was a great character. I know plenty of people who are good people, but terrible characters. They just don't work in an essay, they just don't advance anything. When I wrote about my father in the past, he was like, Oh, that nut. Gee, he can be tough sometimes, but it's lovable Lou, but that's not really who he was. Now that he is dead, I just feel like I can kind of let that aspect of it go.

[35:46] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[35:46] Laura Camien: And David, have you by any chance read Happy Go Lucky?

[35:50] Susan Blackwell: No, but I have it.

[35:52] Laura Camien: So he really talked about letting it go. Now that his father is dead, he's really writing like his parents are dead.

[36:00] Susan Blackwell: I listened to the book two times, read by David Sedaris.

[36:04] Laura Camien: Wow.

[36:04] Susan Blackwell: It's ex Laura, this is the understatement of the century. Based on David's point of view, yeah, and David's truth, it is extremely honest in regards to his dad. He talks about his father's lying.

[36:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:18] Susan Blackwell: Talks about his the way his father talked about his daughter's in sexual ways. He recounts this thing about asking one of his daughters to go with him into the woods so he can photograph her topless. David does not hold back in this writing. But he wasn't totally pulling punches about his dad before his father died either. He just wasn't revealing everything.

[36:42] Laura Camien: Everything.

[36:42] Susan Blackwell: So in one of his earlier books called Theft by Finding, David Sedaris wrote about his father's mantra towards David of you're a big fat zero. And in this interview that David did with Hugh Delahante in AARP, David said, When I think back, I wouldn't wanted another father. I'm completely happy with the one I got. Everything he ever said to me, I did the opposite. Everything. And I made a nice career out of reacting against him. If he had been my biggest cheerleader, I would be a nobody today. He'd say, You're a big fat zero. But that's exactly what I needed to hear because I think, oh yeah, I'll show you. Fuck around and find out.

[37:25] Laura Camien: Fuck around and find out.

[37:26] Susan Blackwell: David Sedaris's dad.

[37:28] Laura Camien: So I don't know. I was just very aware as I listened to Happy Go Lucky, as I started doing more digging and research around revisiting the spark. I was like, this is not an easy when I when we talk about like establishing your own guidelines and rules of engagement, it's not easy.

[37:49] Susan Blackwell: It's murky.

[37:50] Laura Camien: It is. It's murky because humans and your interactions, memories are infallible. Um, people are unreliable narrators of their own experience. Like it could get very murky.

[38:00] Susan Blackwell: It absolutely can. And I just think that like understanding that any story that we experience from another person is their part of the story.

[38:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:11] Susan Blackwell: And honestly, they might change the way they tell that story over time as well.

[38:15] Laura Camien: That's right.

[38:16] Susan Blackwell: But in this moment, right now, this is the way they are telling that story. Are there other sides to the story? Absolutely.

[38:23] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:24] Susan Blackwell: Are there other ways you could tell the story? Yeah. Absolutely. Something that illustrates this case in point. David also writes pretty frankly about his sister, Tiffany, who I just described. In both the book, Happy Go Lucky and in the Fresh Air interview. And I also I found a 2004 Boston Globe article written by Gina Moore, and it was all from Tiffany's point of view.

[38:50] Laura Camien: Wow.

[38:50] Susan Blackwell: It was written before she committed suicide, and it was clear that the journalist Gina Moore had spent time with her in her home, and had kind of a different point of view. So the headline is Sister in a Glass House. And under the headline, it reads, The good news is that her brother is a famous writer. The bad news is that David Sedaris keeps putting his family in his stories, even though his sister Tiffany prefers her privacy. So in the article through Gina Moore's writing, we get to hear from Tiffany herself. She was an artist in her own right. She did a lot of collaging and mosaicing glass and ceramics and things that she found in people's trash.

[39:32] Laura Camien: Wow.

[39:32] Susan Blackwell: Um, and in his essay after Tiffany's suicide, David summed it up like this. One day she'd throw a dish at you, and the next she'd create a stunning mosaic made of the shards.

[39:43] Laura Camien: Wow.

[39:44] Susan Blackwell: So she, you know, Tiffany sounded like somebody who really struggled with a lot of demons, mental health, um, addiction, a really, really tough set of life circumstances. And she could be somebody that like literally throw a plate at you, but she could was also an artist capable of making beautiful things out of that broken plate. So um, in the 2004 Boston Globe article, Tiffany says of her five siblings, I was the only one who told him not to put me in his books. I don't trust David to have boundaries. Our friends, our shrinks, the guy who gives us our meds, they all think David is incredibly violating. But then everyone says, Oh, what? Does your brother not like you? Even when he doesn't write about you, he's writing about you. Meaning she asked not to be written about, and then her requested absence in his writing garnered unwanted attention as well.

[40:40] Laura Camien: That's right.

[40:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I think this is a really, really good example, Suze, because it's fair. Like I would probably be mad as well if my sibling did that.

[40:51] Laura Camien: It's all it's completely fair.

[41:02] Susan Blackwell: Yes. That's not true. It's just not true. Yeah, that's why I stress that this is I mean, it's a provocative title for the podcast episode, but it's not blanket advice because there are repercussions and ramifications, and you have to get clear for yourself about what your tolerance level is for, you know, blowback. So just again, more of this case study. In an interview on Fresh Air with Terry Gross back in May of 2022 when Happy Go Lucky came out, David was very candid. Terry Gross went deep, and David Sedaris went there with her. It is a great interview, and I highly recommend it. And in it, David says, "One day, Tiffany asked me never to write about her, and I said, 'That's no problem.' And then she called and said, 'Everyone thinks you don't like me.

Will you write a story about me?' So I did, and I sent it to her, and I said, 'Is this okay?' And she said, 'Yeah, I love it, and it's really funny, and you capture me perfectly.' And then the book came out, and she was like, 'I can't believe he did this to me. I can't believe that he would betray me like this.' And it's like, you see, you just couldn't trust her, you know. So I got this sense from reading Tiffany's account and David's account and reading countless people weigh in on this on Reddit and other online forums. There isn't an easy, clear-cut answer about whether or not David had the right to reference Tiffany in his writing. So this is a sister who struggled with mental illness, addiction, and this dark troubled past.

And again, there are so many differing opinions about this. So if you are making work based on your lived experience, or if you want to put things in your work that may be, I don't know, a little pearl clutchy or hot to the touch, I think it's important to get clear with yourself about what your rules of engagement are.

[43:02] Laura Camien: Yeah. If it frees your self-expression, you can try writing like your parents are dead, or put more gently, as we've discussed, write like your loved ones are never going to read it or hear it or see it, or write like it's going to be published posthumously, like I was just saying. What were you gonna say, Susan?

[43:20] Susan Blackwell: Well, and or like if the story can be told without the use of actual names. I mean, David Sedaris is specific because he uses very clearly, these are my sisters, these are my parents, and makes no, like his line was, "I actually make no attempt to conceal who's who." Yeah, but another way of doing that is like writing all about your family by making it like a fictional family, or changing all the names of the people, and maybe even sometimes attributing a story to your sister that was actually your brother that did it. Like shake it up a little bit. So you do tell the stories, but it makes it less like a journalist might actually call up that person and say, "We understand from your brother's book that you did this."

[44:08] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, yes. Another, you remember that Banksy painting that sold at auction and it immediately shredded itself?

[44:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. Create like that. Create like your work is immediately gonna shred itself. Um, if you're inclined, you can do what I sometimes do, which is discuss it with people before or not. You get to decide.

[44:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:28] Susan Blackwell: But again, at the risk of repeating myself five times, we encourage you to make these decisions consciously. Because if you don't, your fears, which may be subconscious, may keep you from telling your story.

[44:42] Laura Camien: So I mean 100%. And that idea that we might be able to create from our heart in our deepest pain points, and not have anyone ever be mad about it, dislike us or dislike our work. It's just not a reasonable hope. If you remove anything that could possibly offend anyone ever, um, and I'm not talking just about family, I'm talking about like if you're thinking I'm gonna put a show out there that will not disturb a single hair on anyone's head, and no one's gonna dislike anything about it. It's just not, it's just not reality, or it's so washed down that sure, no one was bothered by it because no one's gonna remember it the moment they walk out the door. And you, I would posit that you also won't feel as though you truly expressed yourself because you pulled everything.

[45:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I guess I just feel like what is the real fear that we're dealing with here? And sometimes it is the fear of putting a story, any story out there, and knowing that other people are going to have opinions about it.

[46:00] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[46:01] Susan Blackwell: And it's hard. It can feel challenging. Yeah. And you have to decide if it's worth it to you.

[46:07] Laura Camien: That's right. 100%. But do us a favor and think about it consciously and don't just like live in that place of maybe forever, because then you could just go ahead and live with the regret of never having made anything at all.

[46:24] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna close with this. This is something I've said on this podcast before, and I often quote, and I quoted it the other day, driving down the road with my sweet husband Nathan. It's a 2012 tweet from Anne Lamott. It's because Anne Lamott always gets the last word. You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories. If people wanted you to write warmly about them, they should have behaved better. And that's my spark. Boom!

[46:56] Laura Camien: Wow. Yeah, I think this is a great spark. And obviously, I think it's clear I get sparked by it as well, Susan, is like every time we talk about it, and I think it is such a worthy exploration for people. Well, I'll tell you, like, you know, different people have different appetites that they are satisfying when they consume art, culture, creativity.

[47:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:23] Laura Camien: And you may be like, I love David Sedaris' first book, I love the jokes, it makes me laugh so hard. And I don't need this like darker family, like this tumult, and that's just a question of like where your personal taste lies. This book, Happy Go Lucky, not that David Sedaris needs any more promotion from me, but like it is crazy how honest it is. I mean, yeah. And it I do think it is because based on, you know, what I've heard him say in interviews, etc., now that his father and his sister, who were two really, really challenging folks in his life, now that they're gone, it's sort of like no holds are being barred. It is so honest.

[48:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, super honest.

[48:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, and it sounds like it might be a step too far for some people. And it might have been exactly what he needed in order to be self-expressed. And you know, sometimes you can do that, and three people buy the book. David Sedaris has, you know, many, many others who buy his books, and I would say that could be evidence that other people have healing to do as well, and his books help them heal from their family experiences.

[48:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, potentially, potentially. For me, it's a great case study because it's operating with high visibility and high stakes. And I think there's somebody in our, I'm thinking of somebody that's in our SparkFile community, and they were expressing some apprehension because they've experienced a lot of creative output recently, and there's been a lot of support that showed up for them. A lot of people have turned out to see their work, to read their work, etc.

[49:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:16] Susan Blackwell: And they were like, I feel physically sick. And I'm like, I think it's a little bit of an upper limit problem where you're sort of like, I'm not sure yet. I've caught up with my deserve levels about this level of support and attention towards my work. But I also was like having higher visibility can be real anxiety provoking.

[49:40] Laura Camien: Oh, the David Sedaris case study, I feel like is a good one because it's sort of like I didn't, when I was younger, I didn't understand like I desire success and I fear success.

[49:52] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[49:53] Laura Camien: And I was like, oh, I get it now because one of the aspects of success is there's a lot of reasons to fear success, but one of them is like you should see these Reddit chat boards, people weighing in about whether David Sedaris has a right or not to tell stories that involve especially his sister Tiffany. And I'm like everybody's got an opinion, but that's why I think David Sedaris clearly has clarified in his mind where his boundaries and what his rules of engagement are, and also he acknowledges in his writing that the murkiness and the unresolved conflicts that existed before Tiffany committed suicide will exist for him until he dies. Like he will not necessarily find a clean, easy resolution with an understanding with a little bow on top.

[50:53] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[50:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's right. So that's what I mean when I say all of it can get real murky, and you want to gain as much conscious clarity around this for yourself as a creative as possible.

[51:06] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And you might not agree with, like I don't know where I fall on that spectrum. Like I think maybe for me, like David Sedaris, where he has his line is probably further out than where I would have my line.

[51:19] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[51:19] Susan Blackwell: And that's okay. Like, I think like all of us being aware, like again, like you are empowered to put that line where it suits you and allows you to feel free as a creative and also feel like I'm not harming anyone. And he has his, he obviously feels, you know, like he has the reasoning for why it's okay for him to do what he does. Everybody gets to put that line, you know, where they want and need to put that line.

[51:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, put that line where you want.

[51:56] Susan Blackwell: Give it some thought though.

[51:57] Laura Camien: Give it some thought, but not forever.

[52:00] Susan Blackwell: Not forever. Get back to work now.

[52:03] Laura Camien: Get back to creating and self-expressing.

[52:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and I'll just say this. Remember, you can create something and choose not to share it out at that moment.

[52:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:11] Susan Blackwell: But if it is knocking on your door and it needs to get out, yeah, get it done on paper, sculpt it out, draw it out, whatever you need to do, and then that does not need to go out into the world immediately. You can contemplate that. It's the Hilma af Klint rule. Remember Hilma from episode one of this very podcast?

[52:31] Laura Camien: That's right.

[52:31] Susan Blackwell: Hilma did not intend for her wild ass paintings to be seen until well after her death because she felt like the world could not handle it.

[52:40] Laura Camien: Yeah, they were not ready to have their asses blown off.

[52:43] Susan Blackwell: And she's not wrong. The world can barely handle it now. Those paintings are so fucking rad.

[52:49] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[52:50] Susan Blackwell: That is correct. It all goes back to Hilma.

[52:53] Laura Camien: It really does. Friends, I think that's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, you can email us at thesparkfile@gmail.com or submit any inquiries through our website, thesparkfile.com. We'll even take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently. You can follow us on social at The Spark File and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really helps listeners to find us.

Also, if you like this podcast, we do hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, oh no! Don't piss off a couple of writers. We will write about you. If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know you gotta take it and make it. Bye.

[54:07] Laura Camien: Bye, everybody.

[54:08] Susan Blackwell: We're not bumping into something that inspires me.

[54:17] Laura Camien: Spark files could be something that I wanna take or how I wanna be.

[54:23] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[54:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[54:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files.

[54:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.