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[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark spa.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark five!

[0:19] Susan Blackwell: To be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be, I pump it in my spark spa.

[0:23] Laura Camien: Spark!

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks. Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparkfile where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you're an OG member of the Sparkfile community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, what?

[0:59] Laura Camien: Welcome.

[1:00] Susan Blackwell: Welcome in. Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:07] Laura Camien: But you also may be asking yourself, what exactly is a sparkfile?

[1:11] Susan Blackwell: A sparkfile is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:18] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your little campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:28] Susan Blackwell: It can, but don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:40] Laura Camien: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this very podcast.

[1:47] Susan Blackwell: Or a well-crafted, authentic story based on your own personal experiences.

[1:55] Laura Camien: I already love that.

[1:57] Susan Blackwell: You like the smell of that?

[1:58] Laura Camien: I do.

[1:59] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:04] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some people who spark us too.

[2:08] Susan Blackwell: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:12] Laura Camien: So if something lights you up, we implore you. Please take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: Without further ado, let's open up the Sparks by Laura Camien.

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: Susie Blackwell.

[2:29] Laura Camien: Listen.

[2:30] Susan Blackwell: Okay, what?

[2:30] Laura Camien: Do do do do do do do do do do do this just in, this just in.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: Breaking news. You know, you had to point me towards this because I sometimes go for long spells without going on social media, as is my want.

[2:44] Laura Camien: But we did that little sparklet about the Black Moth Society, aka the thrift creeper.

[2:52] Susan Blackwell: And when we say we, you did, yes.

[2:55] Laura Camien: Well, we covered it briefly on the podcast, but we tagged them on the episode on Instagram.

[3:02] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and they actually listened and wrote back.

[3:07] Laura Camien: And I have to tell you, I was star struck.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: Thrilled you.

[3:12] Laura Camien: It gave you feelings.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: Me too.

[3:15] Laura Camien: Me too. I wrote back to them.

[3:16] Susan Blackwell: They and they were like, This made my day.

[3:19] Laura Camien: It made it. Genuinely made my day.

[3:21] Susan Blackwell: And they said it twice. I went to my husband and I was like, oh my God.

[3:26] Laura Camien: I've explained the story and said that Black Moth Society had written back, and I'm just such a fan of their work.

[3:35] Susan Blackwell: Not only the things that they make, but the way that they share out their art. I think is really inventive.

[3:39] Laura Camien: Yes.

[3:42] Susan Blackwell: And it speaks to so many of my special interests in terms of like thrifting and monsters and where monsters meet thrifting.

[3:50] Laura Camien: I mean, that's pretty specific.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: Specific, yeah. But then also there's sort of a very democratic way that this art is being distributed, and it's not to the highest bidder, it's to the person who's in the right place at the right time.

[4:05] Laura Camien: And if I am reading their social media correctly, they just did their most recent sculpture is based on a ceramic bear figurine, and it sounds like they are going to be visiting some cities across our great nation and depositing some surprises in thrift stores.

[4:27] Susan Blackwell: What I want to know, do you know this? Do they sign it so you know that you have in fact discovered a black moth?

[4:38] Laura Camien: I feel like I saw on one of the videos, or maybe I dreamt it, but just off the top of my head, I feel like I saw them on the base of one of the pieces right, the Black Moth Society.

[4:51] Susan Blackwell: I hope so. Oh, I hope so, because I just now believe that you and I will scour the nation.

[4:57] Laura Camien: I also they said in either the comment or in the exchange when they slid into our DMs, or we slid into theirs.

[5:04] Susan Blackwell: I imagine they slid into our that they actually had cleaned the eggs out of the sculpture before they had, and I was like, Did you mean the smelly egg one that you talked about?

[5:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, it's amazing. I my hope is that they couldn't they couldn't ever fully get the smell of the eggs out.

[5:24] Laura Camien: Just so it has like a little whiff of it, rotten egg.

[5:27] Susan Blackwell: It brought this fantasy to me about wishing that there was some way that this is a very old Susan childhood wish/slash dream that I would somehow miraculously be in the right place at the right time, and I would be the one that would find the sculpture.

[5:48] Laura Camien: I mean, that's like a lottery ticket.

[5:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's a little bit Charlie in the chocolate factory.

[5:52] Laura Camien: Yeah, exactly.

[5:53] Susan Blackwell: But it could happen.

[5:55] Laura Camien: It could totally happen.

[5:57] Susan Blackwell: Sure.

[5:58] Laura Camien: Sure.

[5:59] Susan Blackwell: Yes, it could. I'm just so smitten.

[6:02] Laura Camien: And I've just felt so elated to know that. Like there's so many downsides to social media, but whenever you can connect with somebody whose work that you just love, it's so oh, it just moved me.

[6:15] Laura Camien: So delicious. And speaking of, I just want to share one other this isn't even a spark, it's just a fun thing that happened.

[6:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[6:22] Laura Camien: So I don't know if y'all are watching Succession. It's the final season of Succession, which is a show that at first I could barely watch it because I was like, oh my God, these people are so mean to each other.

[6:37] Susan Blackwell: But then it kind of grew on me, and I was like, oh, there's something so delicious about their toxicity.

[6:43] Laura Camien: Their cruelty.

[6:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And um just watching the rich eat themselves.

[6:48] Laura Camien: But uh they're really promoting this final season, and they're really the push is on because this last episode was a very strong episode.

[6:58] Susan Blackwell: We're speaking of episode three, just in case you're but no spoilers.

[7:01] Laura Camien: This this may not run for yeah, no spoilers, but I'm looking at you, Laura Coward.

[7:06] Susan Blackwell: And I noticed a piece of promotion that I happened to come across on TikTok where each character said, What's a favorite line that you got to say during your time on succession?

[7:18] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[7:19] Susan Blackwell: And Alan Ruck, who plays Connor Roy, the eldest son, who's the half siblings of the other half sibling of the others, said, I loved screaming about the frozen butter.

[7:32] Laura Camien: Which is the scene that I did with him.

[7:34] Susan Blackwell: I was like, that's my scene.

[7:36] Laura Camien: That's my scene, the frozen butter scene.

[7:38] Susan Blackwell: You were screaming at me.

[7:40] Laura Camien: What is so funny is that I thought about you in this last episode.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: I will not give any spoilers, but we all know it's working towards a wedding.

[7:49] Laura Camien: Connor's wedding is the name of the episode.

[7:51] Susan Blackwell: Why didn't they bring back that party planner from season one?

[7:54] Laura Camien: It was like, where's that party planner?

[7:57] Susan Blackwell: A uh well, maybe she wasn't rehired because of the frozen butter.

[8:00] Laura Camien: My competency he would have held that against that party planner.

[8:06] Susan Blackwell: But he has a thing about the cake.

[8:08] Laura Camien: Yes.

[8:09] Susan Blackwell: And it's so spot on character-wise, and it hearkened back to that episode.

[8:15] Laura Camien: I was like, here we are again.

[8:18] Susan Blackwell: Last time it was the butter. This time it's gonna be the cake.

[8:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: Uh it was great. But I thought of you a lot.

[8:25] Laura Camien: That's so funny that that's what he was excited that he got to yell about.

[8:30] Susan Blackwell: Not really a spark, just just something that happened.

[8:33] Laura Camien: But it sparkles.

[8:34] Susan Blackwell: But in the life of a like a weird old character actress, like if somebody, you know, I'm like, I'll take it.

[8:41] Laura Camien: I'll take the second hand.

[8:43] Susan Blackwell: Not even a compliment for me. We're just trying to get through the day. I'll take that you recollect that we had that scene.

[8:52] Laura Camien: That was a fun, it was fun to film.

[8:54] Susan Blackwell: That was really fun to do with him, and it was fun to get screamed at by him.

[8:58] Laura Camien: And then, like, he's sort of like it was very physical, it was very fun.

[9:02] Susan Blackwell: It was a lot of running in heels, and uh, it was that was a fun memory.

[9:06] Laura Camien: Brought it all back.

[9:07] Susan Blackwell: That is awesome. I'm so happy.

[9:10] Laura Camien: How about a spark?

[9:11] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[9:12] Laura Camien: How about like a full-size spark?

[9:14] Susan Blackwell: I'll tell you, Biggie.

[9:16] Laura Camien: A full banquet size spark.

[9:18] Susan Blackwell: All right. Listen, I'm gonna jump in with the spark. I think that all of our listeners are well aware of just the universal human need for storytelling.

[9:30] Laura Camien: I think we could say that.

[9:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, we probably wouldn't be here listening to this if you if you weren't.

[9:35] Laura Camien: But you know, there's no evidence that we know of of like a storytelling gene in our DNA sequence, but we do know that the human brain is wired for storytelling.

[9:46] Susan Blackwell: The human brain wants to tell stories and hear stories, it wants to glean universal truths and morality lessons from stories, it wants to laugh at human nature, the mundane and the extraordinary.

[10:01] Laura Camien: Our brains want to make meaning from our experience on this planet, and stories help us to make meaning.

[10:08] Susan Blackwell: I love this already.

[10:09] Laura Camien: I love this already.

[10:13] Susan Blackwell: So, storyteller Fatu Wori says storytelling is sacred.

[10:19] Laura Camien: It is how we keep the dead living and the living thriving.

[10:23] Susan Blackwell: It is how we show up as our most authentic self, it can permeate artificial boundaries of race, borders, gender, language, and unequal power.

[10:34] Laura Camien: It is the language of the heart reflecting the breadth of our humanity as individuals and as a collective.

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: I'd love that quote.

[10:44] Laura Camien: I was I was like tattoo, sing fatu it, fatu.

[10:48] Susan Blackwell: Because that is the fucking truth.

[10:52] Laura Camien: That is the truth.

[10:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And even a lot of scientists believe that storytelling is a vital and essential component to our brain's development, social and emotional development.

[11:05] Laura Camien: So it's not a small thing.

[11:07] Susan Blackwell: It's easy to trivialize, I think.

[11:09] Laura Camien: It's not a small thing.

[11:11] Susan Blackwell: And throughout time, we have found evidence of storytelling in virtually every human culture throughout history.

[11:18] Laura Camien: As we know, we have found cave paintings as old as 40,000 years ago.

[11:23] Susan Blackwell: And cave paintings specifically that appear to be about storytelling as old as 17,000 years ago.

[11:31] Laura Camien: That's amazing.

[11:33] Susan Blackwell: The oral storytellings of indigenous people around the world involving gathering around the fire, sharing stories verbally with musical instruments.

[11:44] Laura Camien: In medieval Europe, there were storytellers who would travel from town to town and entertain groups of people around a fire or a lantern.

[11:52] Susan Blackwell: During the Great Depression in the U.S., families would gather around a radio to hear stories, creating a feeling of connection and community during an otherwise very challenging time.

[12:25] Laura Camien: Which is why in 1997, in the East Village of New York City, he founded The Moth.

[12:32] Susan Blackwell: Oh, shit.

[12:34] Laura Camien: The moth.

[12:36] Susan Blackwell: I've always loved that visual and why we called it the Moth.

[12:39] Laura Camien: But if you're not familiar with the Moth, we're gonna tell you about it.

[12:43] Susan Blackwell: And if you are familiar with the Moth, we're gonna dig into some of the details about how you might get inspired to craft your own story.

[12:51] Laura Camien: Oh shh, shit.

[12:53] Susan Blackwell: Woo!

[12:55] Susan Blackwell: So The Moth is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the art of storytelling.

[13:00] Laura Camien: Specifically, they celebrate the commonality and diversity of the human experience through the art and craft of true personal storytelling.

[13:19] Susan Blackwell: All of the moth stories are focused on true personal stories told in front of a live audience.

[13:27] Laura Camien: There is no use of scripts, notes, props, or accompaniment of any kind.

[13:32] Susan Blackwell: The different types of events that they produce include mainstage events.

[13:38] Laura Camien: These events are curated in advance, and they feature typically five storytellers who develop and shape their stories in advance with directors from the moth.

[13:50] Susan Blackwell: I think of the main stage events like their most polished events.

[13:55] Laura Camien: People buy tickets knowing they're gonna get a curated show.

[13:59] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[14:00] Laura Camien: And the main stage moth tours internationally.

[14:04] Susan Blackwell: It has featured stories by Malcolm Gladwell, Ethan Hawke, Margaret Cho, many, many, many, many more people.

[14:12] Laura Camien: They also do what they call Story Slam events.

[14:16] Susan Blackwell: These are community focused, they're open mic competitions.

[14:21] Laura Camien: They have taken place in 21 U.S. cities plus Sydney, Melbourne, London, UK, Dublin, etc.

[14:29] Susan Blackwell: And at these events, anyone can share a five-minute story.

[14:34] Laura Camien: You put your name in the hat when you arrive, and if your name is picked, up you go and you tell your story.

[14:40] Susan Blackwell: Now your story needs to relate to the theme of the night, and they rate and rank the storytellers and announce a winner at the end of each event.

[14:48] Laura Camien: And they announce the theme in advance, right?

[14:51] Susan Blackwell: They announce the theme.

[14:52] Laura Camien: Yeah, so you can prepare and must prepare something that relates to the theme.

[14:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:57] Laura Camien: The moth makes clear at these events that they are not responsible for the content of the stories because they have not been screened beforehand.

[15:04] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[15:05] Laura Camien: We don't know.

[15:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[15:05] Laura Camien: So it has a very spontaneous and exciting feel to it.

[15:09] Susan Blackwell: And then they do a Grand Slam on occasion where they invite 10 winners of past story slams in a particular city and then put them up on a stage to battle it out.

[15:22] Laura Camien: Grand Slam is where it's at.

[15:24] Susan Blackwell: Grand Slam's amazing.

[15:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:27] Susan Blackwell: So my interest in this spark is multi-layered. Obviously, I love storytelling. I know you do too, so we're gonna both be in on anything to do with storytelling.

[15:37] Laura Camien: But I'm so sparked by an organization that has tapped directly into our human need for storytelling.

[15:43] Susan Blackwell: And when you hear the history of the moth, so many people were like, dude, I don't think so. That doesn't sound very interesting. Maybe if you add music. Oh, God, no. But he's like, no, storytelling. And it is so focused on our need to come together as a community, specifically for the purpose of telling stories, our personal true stories.

[16:05] Laura Camien: I'm also interested because we have clients who are developing or have developed stories specifically for the moth.

[16:12] Susan Blackwell: So we always want to understand their goals and targets as much as possible so we can support their efforts.

[16:18] Laura Camien: Yes.

[16:19] Susan Blackwell: And I actually have a little behind the curtain experience with the moth as well.

[16:24] Laura Camien: And the whole experience just made me more story curious, if you will.

[16:29] Susan Blackwell: We did a special event, which was a collaboration between Blue Man Group and the Moth, which was really interesting, of course, because blue men are nonverbal, so they wouldn't be storytelling per se.

[16:44] Laura Camien: But we sat down with the folks from the Moth on numerous occasions and we charted a course for a special event that would take place at the Astor Place Theater.

[16:53] Susan Blackwell: And thematically, we decided to follow Blue Man Group's sort of guiding ideas about human commonality and connectivity.

[17:04] Laura Camien: Because Blue Man is really built on the idea that all human beings have a desire to self-express, a desire to be part of a tribe or a community, and a desire to feel a heightened sense of being alive.

[17:18] Susan Blackwell: So we use that as the thematic thread to guide our choices for the night.

[17:23] Laura Camien: And the small group of us got to listen to a variety of stories and curate, help curate who would be the storytellers for the evening.

[17:32] Susan Blackwell: And then those storytellers got to work with the moth to further develop their stories as they do when someone is chosen for the main stage.

[17:40] Laura Camien: So we chose four seasoned storytellers, including, and this was a big debate, but we included a former blue man, John Grady.

[17:50] Susan Blackwell: John had told the only reason why we hesitated, like John had told his story before, but he has an amazing story based on an experience he had while he was performing the role of blue man in a show.

[18:01] Laura Camien: So we had these fantastic storytellers, and the blue men performed musical interludes between each story, including never before heard blue man music.

[18:11] Susan Blackwell: We were debuting at the event, and it was so fun.

[18:15] Laura Camien: It was really an incredible experience to work with this like small group of people to bring it all together.

[18:21] Susan Blackwell: We worked with the moth artistic director Catherine Burns and with Maggie Ceno.

[18:26] Laura Camien: I don't think she's with the Moth anymore, but it was great.

[18:31] Susan Blackwell: And what I noticed about the Moth is that they are as passionate about keeping to their organizational DNA as Blue Man is passionate about keeping to their organizational DNA.

[18:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:46] Susan Blackwell: Both organizations had been born in the East Village, New York City in the 1990s by people who were deeply, deeply committed to their work.

[18:55] Laura Camien: And for this event, they had people in charge who had been with their organization for decades, and we had people who had been with our organization for decades, myself included.

[19:06] Susan Blackwell: So we were all deeply committed to the authenticity of our work, which made it a more challenging thing to collaborate on.

[19:17] Laura Camien: To collaborate and see where the Venn diagram overlapped.

[19:21] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[19:22] Laura Camien: And I find personally that collaboration gets more interesting.

[19:28] Susan Blackwell: Not everyone would agree with me, but I think it gets more interesting when everyone involved is super clear on what they do, what they don't do, and why.

[19:38] Laura Camien: If they're clear on where they will bend, where they won't bend.

[19:42] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes you might come to an impasse and find that you're simply not compatible for collaboration.

[19:50] Laura Camien: That's okay.

[19:51] Susan Blackwell: Like if you're not scared of that happening, you can continue to try to find the places that connect.

[19:58] Laura Camien: Sometimes I think it just means you have to dig deeper to find the alignment.

[20:02] Susan Blackwell: And when you do, you often get to the deeper reasons why you were attracted to working with each other, if you will.

[20:10] Laura Camien: Like the collaboration starts to move beyond the surface level.

[20:14] Susan Blackwell: Like the sorts of things like we would hear all the time at Blue Man is like, I think you guys are blue.

[20:19] Laura Camien: Our logo is blue.

[20:21] Susan Blackwell: We should work together.

[20:22] Laura Camien: You know, and we're like, no, I don't think you're really capturing the gist of it.

[20:28] Susan Blackwell: And with the moth, it was a much deeper mutual appreciation for storytelling and human connection.

[20:34] Laura Camien: So it was really, it was really amazing.

[20:37] Susan Blackwell: And I thought then, and you know, I need to like dig even even further into their work.

[20:44] Laura Camien: But you know, life happens.

[20:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[20:47] Laura Camien: So it remained in my Sparks file.

[20:50] Susan Blackwell: So today I want to dig a little deeper and share some of the guidelines for anyone thinking, hey, maybe I'd like to explore this idea of telling a five-minute true story.

[20:59] Laura Camien: And so I'll start.

[21:00] Susan Blackwell: That's where I'll start.

[21:01] Laura Camien: But we're gonna get into a bunch of things.

[21:03] Susan Blackwell: I think it's brilliant because there are people that are so specifically interested in the moth.

[21:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:08] Susan Blackwell: But also their guidelines are just great storytelling guidelines.

[21:13] Laura Camien: Incredible, incredible.

[21:15] Susan Blackwell: And we'll get into some of these, and I'm sure we'll have thoughts to add.

[21:19] Laura Camien: Um, but the specific guidelines for the moth include the story must be true and personal.

[21:28] Susan Blackwell: It should have stakes for the storyteller, something at risk for the storyteller that could be physical or emotional, psychological risk.

[21:37] Laura Camien: The story should have a clear narrative arc, a beginning, middle, end, clear structure, clear direction.

[21:45] Susan Blackwell: And of course, they want it to be engaging and relatable, like make us care about what happens to the storyteller.

[21:53] Laura Camien: It should be well crafted, well written, and well rehearsed, meaning you have mastered the pacing, the tone, and the delivery.

[22:03] Susan Blackwell: Overall, the moth values stories that are authentic, emotionally resonant, and well told.

[22:11] Laura Camien: And no notes and no notes.

[22:13] Susan Blackwell: No notes and no notes.

[22:16] Laura Camien: Yep.

[22:16] Susan Blackwell: In their book, which I cannot recommend more highly for anyone, as you mentioned, or anyone who wants to tell stories of any kind.

[22:28] Laura Camien: And we'll talk more about that.

[22:30] Susan Blackwell: But in their book, How to Tell a Story, they write at the moth, you can hear stories from people you know, people you thought you knew, and people you might never meet otherwise.

[22:42] Laura Camien: We may start as strangers, but by the end of the story, we are closer, and that is the ultimate point.

[22:49] Susan Blackwell: The act of sharing personal stories builds empathy, and out of many stories, we become our community.

[22:57] Laura Camien: It starts with a single story.

[23:00] Susan Blackwell: I love this.

[23:01] Laura Camien: I believe that's true.

[23:03] Susan Blackwell: A hundred percent.

[23:04] Laura Camien: I think that storytelling is the key to empathy, and it's the key that connection is the key to actually making movement, whether it's political, whatever it is, like whether you're canvassing and you're trying to get people to open their minds to like women's reproductive rights, it's stories.

[23:23] Susan Blackwell: Storytelling is everything.

[23:24] Laura Camien: It's stories, it's everything.

[23:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it is everything.

[23:29] Laura Camien: I agree.

[23:30] Susan Blackwell: I love it so much.

[23:31] Laura Camien: I think of all of us like in a darkened theater, sitting knee to knee.

[23:36] Susan Blackwell: You can hear the breath of the person next to you, and at times you gasp together, you snort together, you literally become one breath, one organism when a great story is being told.

[23:50] Laura Camien: So true.

[23:51] Susan Blackwell: And did you know, Suze, that science backs this up?

[23:56] Laura Camien: That is not just a feeling.

[23:59] Susan Blackwell: There was a study done by neuroscientist Huri Hassan that found when a person is listening and comprehending a story, their brain activity begins to couple with or align with the brain of the storyteller.

[24:15] Laura Camien: And MRI scans of two brains, one talking, one listening, showed that the brains began to sink.

[24:24] Susan Blackwell: Where the teller's brain showed activity or lit up soon after the listener's brain lit up too.

[24:33] Laura Camien: Now, this only happens when the listener is engaged and comprehending, but I learned this from the moth's book.

[24:41] Susan Blackwell: It's not an exaggeration that you can literally light up someone's brain, but only if your story is good.

[24:50] Laura Camien: That is rad.

[24:51] Susan Blackwell: That is fucking rad.

[24:53] Laura Camien: Isn't it rad?

[24:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I love it.

[24:54] Laura Camien: It's like mirror neurons, but from listening, simply from listening.

[24:58] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[24:59] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[25:00] Susan Blackwell: Now at the moth, they believe, and I know you and I agree that everyone has a story.

[25:00] Laura Camien: Everyone has a story.

[25:09] Susan Blackwell: I hope you really hear that.

[25:11] Laura Camien: Every single listener, everyone has a story.

[25:15] Susan Blackwell: The stories that they share on the podcast, The Moth Radio Hour, also have been told live, by the way.

[25:21] Laura Camien: So they really do commit to the idea of people gathering together for a live storytelling experience.

[25:28] Susan Blackwell: Now, Suze, I just wanted to ask you, I think I know the answer to this, but our listeners might not. Have you ever wanted to tell a story at the moth?

[25:36] Laura Camien: It seems like so much of your writing would be a perfect fit.

[25:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I actually was remembering years and years ago, I did a piece of storytelling for them, I think on camera for something that they were doing.

[25:51] Laura Camien: So I feel like technically, many years ago, I have, but I've never done the slam.

[25:58] Susan Blackwell: That whole pull your name out of a hat and you might go on and you might not was a little much for my nervous system.

[26:05] Laura Camien: I wonder what the on-camera thing was, though, because they really do commit to like live audience.

[26:10] Susan Blackwell: I know, but it was a very special thing, and it was like 20 million years ago.

[26:15] Laura Camien: But as you were talking, I was like, oh yeah, I remember the story that I told that had stakes.

[26:22] Susan Blackwell: It was really um, I had never told the story publicly.

[26:25] Laura Camien: I have since, but for whatever reason, I think they wanted to use it, and I was like, let's not use it.

[26:31] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[26:31] Laura Camien: But I backed, I backed away from back to it.

[26:34] Susan Blackwell: Um, but yeah, I have I've had a lot of friends.

[26:37] Laura Camien: I've attended like the Grand Slam, I have slams. I really love the work that they do. And I also personally I like to craft my stories with music, and that's not part of their jail. Uh-huh. So, but I I am a huge, huge fan. And I believe if you can craft that five minute, like a really good story that's really well told, then it's the foundation, it's everything. It's everything.

[27:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I think that the story slams it's a lot for your nervous system because you need to go in being prepared to be chosen, and to not know throughout the entire evening whether or not you will be called up there.

[27:21] Laura Camien: Yeah, you don't they don't even tell you at the beginning, like, here are the here are the people who are coming up, and here's the order one at a time. It's one at a time. It's not for everyone's nervous system, yeah. Whereas like the main stage, you're preparing for it, you know you're going up, you know when you're going up and how you're going up, etc.

[27:38] Susan Blackwell: But I I think it's interesting. When I think about telling a story for the moth, I think it would be super fun, super fun. And then you know what happens to me in my brain. My next thought is like, oh, but the story has to be true. And then I think, oh, I haven't done anything interesting, nothing interesting has happened to me, which really makes me laugh. Oh boy. Because, like, because apparently that's all my brain needs to say to dissuade me from even thinking about it at all. That's it. Like, I don't even put up a fight. I think I'll binge a TV show instead.

[28:11] Laura Camien: In all fairness, like when you see a story at at the moth or elsewhere that really is clicking and really is working and is economic and given people the feels in whatever directions you want to give them the feels.

[28:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes. It is truly a work of art. It is. And so much work has gone into it. So you have true personal stakes, engaging, well crafted and rehearsed, authentic, a narrative arc. Like in five minutes, it's a lot.

[28:46] Laura Camien: I will say this as you were talking, Nathan told us a story the other day. It's so good, and he tells it so well. It's a true story from his life. Okay. And it right at the end takes this turn that everybody was like, Well, we didn't see that coming. And he was recounting how he was telling it to a coworker when he was traveling for work recently, yeah, in a hotel restaurant, and somebody at the next table said was eavesdropping and said, I'm telling that story at dinner tonight. It's that good.

[29:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God, I need to hear it. Okay, put this on it, make a note of this because I need to hear this story. That's the kind of story you want for the moth.

[29:29] Laura Camien: Yes. And we're gonna get into looking at like examining and mining for those types of stories in your life because you probably have some. Yeah. You probably have some. And so when I say that, like my brain's like, oh, we don't have anything. Oh, yes, we do. Of course, of course. I do, you do, we all do. But we just need to jog our memory a little bit.

[29:54] Susan Blackwell: But one thing I wanted to say before we get to jogging our memory, which we will, you and I have talked at length about writing true stories and truth in storytelling in general. Right. Many of our podcasts have broached this topic and a lot of our curriculum as well. So I thought I might share a little bit about what the moth says about truth. I can vouch for this based on my personal experience working with them. They stand by it. But it is also all in their book, How to Tell a Story, which again, you should absolutely pick up if you have any interest in developing a story of any kind.

[30:34] Laura Camien: This is such a good spark, Laura.

[30:35] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thanks, Suze. Oh my God. I mean, I feel like I could get this is we could talk forever, but I gotta get this book. The book is so good. Yeah. It's so good. It's so helpful.

[30:43] Susan Blackwell: So at the end of the Moth Radio Hour, they say moth stories are true as remembered and affirmed by the storytellers. They recognize, as we have on many occasions, that memory is fallible. Dr. Wendy Suzuki, who is a moth storyteller and a neuroscientist, says our memory is precious because it provides the scaffolding for who we are as a person, including defining our own personal histories. However, at the same time, our memories don't act like a YouTube video recording every move in precise detail. Instead, our memories are fallible, inaccurate, and can be modified literally every time we recall them.

[31:31] Laura Camien: Something that they say, which I thought was really interesting, is that you construct a story from memory. You might be as accurate as possible, but what you remember about the event is not all there was to remember. Just sit with that for a second. Like what I recall happening is not even close to all there was to remember. I've got like a little highlight reel of this, this, and this is what happened. And I'm I'm positive about it. But there's a lot of other stuff to remember.

[32:07] Susan Blackwell: Another storyteller, Frimit Goldberger said stories are not static. They grow, they shrivel, they stretch on one side and shrink on the other. Like people, stories evolve, even and especially our own stories. Memory is unreliable. We tend to remember things based on present perceptions. And in that sense, no person's story stays the same. So that's why, like even every time we tell a story, we might recall new details, or we might enhance something that was well received the last time we told the story.

[32:49] Laura Camien: This book has some really, really great tips in regard to telling true stories. But one that I want to mention because I know we have several clients who have written or are writing shows based on their personal experience, entire shows, not just uh five minute stories. And also uh memoirs and novels. Yeah. So this was big. One thing that they encourage is that you uncomplicate the truth. I'll say that again. Uncomplicate the truth.

[33:24] Susan Blackwell: And they give an example of how we can feel multiple things at one time. It is possible to be incredibly grateful for a lifeboat, but also deeply resentful of that lifeboat. Like perhaps you were not really drowning and you wanted the opportunity to prove how strong you are. But also you're kind of relieved that you didn't have to exhaust yourself and a ride on the lifeboat is going to be much quicker than making the swim yourself. Which feelings we include or delete from the story are all based on the point of the story. Is this information relevant to your story arc? Sometimes complexity is what the story is about. If that contradiction is the point of the story, then both of those feelings stay in. But if it is not relevant to that, if it's about anything else, then one of them has to go. We can't explain like the complexity of everything without losing the point of nuance dimension of every moment.

[34:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, without losing the point of the story. I feel like there are times like when we're writing from personal experience, we want to share these complexities because we are complex as human beings. Uh-huh. But if it makes the story muddy, it isn't useful. Yes. It's not useful unless you are literally writing a story about the complexity of being human, uncomplicate the truth. Just uncomplicate it. And even if you are writing about the complications of being human, you still have to make choices. You still have to make choices. You absolutely must.

[35:06] Susan Blackwell: And the last thing I'll say on this topic it this is true for the moth. And I think any storytelling that is based on personal experience, you can spice it up. You can take artistic license. You can switch a few details, skip forward, omit a beat, reorder the things that happened as long as it stays grounded in your lived experience. They give an example of like in real life, maybe you went to a church sermon on Sunday and you heard this thing, and two days later you stopped into Bible study and heard this thing. And then three days after that, someone in your church quilting club said this thing. You can condense all of that.

[35:51] Laura Camien: Yeah. And one trip to church, you heard these things. You can consolidate and omit and reorder things and spice it up, but it all is still grounded in the truth of the event. So if you're like me and your brain just told you, but I don't have any true stories, things that have happened to me or things that I've done. They have an entire chapter that is just genius for mining for memories.

[36:22] Susan Blackwell: Awesome. Mining for memories. One of the storytellers, Neshama Franklin, wrote this. I believe we're like Russian nesting dolls, and everything we've done is still inside us. I just twist off the top, and there it is. I believe this to be true. It is stored in a cellular place. It really is. And if you know Russian nesting dolls, you know that sometimes you have to dig deeper and deeper. Just open one more and one more and one more to get to that solid center.

[36:56] Laura Camien: So I won't be able to share this whole chapter with you, obviously, but let me get you started on a few things. Again, get this book. All right, here's a couple highlights. Number one, not all stories are epic. Stories come from the mundane. They come from when our expectations meet the reality of the situation. Some come from when our expectations are vastly different from the reality of the situation. One way you can approach this is to think of a time when you did something out of the ordinary or broke a pattern of some kind.

[37:33] Susan Blackwell: So for example, it could be like, I'm never without my phone. But this one day, dot dot dot, I never walked to work. But this one day, or I swore I would never sign up for a dance class, but this one day.

[37:50] Laura Camien: Right. So when did you break a pattern? Number two, stories can come from moments of change, transition, or upheaval. Was there a time you changed a belief that you held, or had a moment when everything came into focus? Was there a time you discovered you were just plain wrong about something? This one is all about how you are a different you than you were at the beginning of the story.

[38:21] Susan Blackwell: Change baby. We love to see it. We love to see it. This is the I used to be like this, yeah, but now I know different. Stories can come from decision points. Consider was there a time you made a choice that altered the course of your life? To marry or not marry, stay married or not stay married, quit your job, fire someone. Did you make a choice to speak up or step back? Did you make a choice to drop a friendship? Or did you discover a dynamic that needs to change? Did you decide to change it or not change it? Move across the country or not. Did you make a choice to invite someone in or not invite them in? Decisions, decisions, decisions. These are all ripe for stories.

[39:14] Laura Camien: Number four, look for the ouch, as they say. Look for the ouch. We might say put the pain in the light. Find the pain and put it in the light. Mike Barbiglia said, What I've found over the years is you know you're on the right track with finding a story if it makes you very uncomfortable to tell it. Yes. If you want to bail out at many stages of it, you know you're going in the right direction. Yeah, I agree with that. Right? These can be based around a mistake we made, something we should have seen coming, something we're almost too embarrassed to tell anyone.

[39:55] Susan Blackwell: This is what when we say, like our biggest mistakes can lead to our greatest stories.

[40:01] Laura Camien: This is right here.

[40:03] Susan Blackwell: Right here.

[40:05] Laura Camien: Now, I'll just share a couple more. We're out, we're in different chapters now, but a couple more highlights in terms of telling a story for The Moth or otherwise, frankly, but yeah, this is all um supported by The Moth storytelling techniques. First and foremost, every story needs a point. Every story needs a point. Before you start telling a story, think about the central message or idea you want to convey to your audience. Without a point, a story feels like you're rambling. And although you might think it's charming and fun, it can really leave people quite unsatisfied and confused. That's a harsh reality. I feel even a lot, I feel like, oh, I was just brutally honest there. But sometimes the point doesn't have to be like this deep, deep aha. It can the point can be that is weird and funny, and that's when I knew I had to move out of that apartment.

[41:07] Susan Blackwell: That's exactly right.

[41:08] Laura Camien: Yeah. I was listening to The Moth recently, and there was a story of I guess the point was like a newly divorced woman, uh, dating apps are like those notes you get in fourth grade. Do you like me? Yes or no. And she tells an amazing story. And that's that was the point.

[41:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So sometimes people feel resistant to identifying a point. And I find that interesting, not just about Moth stories, but in general. And sometimes people are like, but it doesn't have a point. It's like a it's like a slice of life. It's a little character-driven moment. But friends, in communication of all kinds, one of the first lessons you learn is that just because you are not defining the point doesn't mean that people aren't deriving a point from it. Our brains will fill a vacuum. So if you're not defining the point, our brain will work over time to try to create some meaning. You must be telling us for some reason.

[42:06] Laura Camien: Yes.

[42:06] Susan Blackwell: So our brains are spinning. We may or may not come to the conclusion of the point that you were trying to make. Maybe there was no point at all, but our brains are still going to be searching for it, and it can be really frustrating for everyone. For everyone.

[42:22] Laura Camien: Now you don't always have to state the point. Like you don't have to say the words. The point of this story is, but sometimes you can, and you do, but either way, the point should be clear. You can also retrofit the point, meaning you can take an anecdote that you've been telling for your whole life and define what the point of that story is.

[42:46] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. Meaning you can start with the story and pull the point out of it. Or you can start with a point and think of a story that illustrates it. And what is interesting to me when we talk with people like who are writing scripts, and this has been true in many of the classes I've taken playwriting, filmmaking. This question of what is this story about? The answer to that question is not launching into the details of it. It's about a woman with her uh puppy, and they and they went. It's not about the plot point synopsis.

[43:20] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[43:21] Susan Blackwell: It is not the synopsis. What is the story about? And if you don't know the answer to that, that is where you should spend your time. And sometimes it takes real time, and you have to get all the clay, the story clay on the wheel before you be like, oh, it is about friendship. It's about this. Oh, it's about deception.

[43:39] Laura Camien: That's right.

[43:43] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah. Yeah. That is absolutely right. Okay. Next highlight. Start in the action. Start in the action, baby. Your story with a scene or moment that grabs your audience's attention and pulls them into the narrative. Another way that we say that, like in playwriting and screenwriting, come in late and leave early. So now in your free write, you might write the whole thing. Laura walks into a room and says, hey, Suze. Susan says, Hey, Laura. What are you doing? I'm eating a sandwich. Blah de blah de blah di blah. And then we get to something happening. When you go back in, cut all of that. Cut the sandwich. Cut the sandwich until Susan bites into it and squirts, you know, tomato juice on Laura. Like it's that's where we start. Now the scene has started and something interesting is happening. So come in late and leave early.

[44:42] Laura Camien: Number three, show, don't tell. We know this. Instead of simply stating your thoughts or feelings, use concrete examples and actions to illustrate your point and make your story more engaging. Things we learned, things we realized, things we felt are so cerebral. Make us feel it. Write it so that it is clear to us what you learned. It's clear to us what you felt because we're feeling it too.

[45:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And this comes from action, things that happened, not just things that you thought. That's right. Make your audience care. Something needs to be at stake, and we need to care about it. And that's whether it's funny, whether it's serious, it doesn't matter. It needs to be emotionally resonant to connect with us. Number five, edit ruthlessly.

[45:33] Laura Camien: Yes, uh. Edit ruthlessly. Cut out any unnecessary details or tangents to keep your story focused and on track. This is so hard for people, especially when they've told a story to their friends a specific way. For a polished story, you have to kill your babies. Everything must pertain to the point. That idea, like in writing, you must kill your darlings is attributed to William Faulkner, but it's also been uh Stephen King and Oscar Wilde and so many more. You must be able to say goodbye to the things like, oh, I thought I just thought that detail was so cute.

[46:17] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[46:18] Laura Camien: And it's not relevant.

[46:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yes. And at this moment, I just thought it might be good to remind everyone writing from inspiration and editing are two very different skills.

[46:30] Laura Camien: Amen.

[46:31] Susan Blackwell: You must be clear on what your assignment is for the day in order for either one of them to be successful. So when you're free writing, writing from inspiration, write, right, write, right, write. That's great. Put all that stuff in. Do not try to edit at the same time. On another day, you put your editor hat on and you edit brutally. This reminds me of Maya Angelou's description of how she would spend her days in that hotel room where she would go to write. And the morning was just writing until she was like, I'm not doing any more good work. And the afternoon was all about editing. Two separate activities. Two separate. Let yourself be free and flowing when you're writing and be ruthless when you're editing.

[47:16] Laura Camien: It reminds me of Toni Morrison, too. She would write in the morning, and she was a professional editor, but she had somebody else also editing her book.

[47:25] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's right. Someone else with the red pen just slashing away.

[47:31] Laura Camien: Yeah. And you have to be okay with that.

[47:34] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Now, when you're ready for your Moth story to be told, practice, practice, practice. Practice more than you think you need to. Yeah. You and I, when we're memorizing something, we both use that technique of repetition. Touch it every day. A little bit every day. Start by reading it aloud.

[47:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:57] Susan Blackwell: Over and over, then lift your eyes off the page, like a plane taking off. Now we're looking up. And then you're completely off book. You're working on pacing, delivery, tone, all of it. Connection. Connection. Connection with each other, connection with the audience.

[48:14] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[48:15] Susan Blackwell: Practice. We just talked about this the other day. Prepare enough so that you can be free.

[48:23] Laura Camien: Prepare enough so you can be free.

[48:26] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm. And finally, be yourself. Authenticity and vulnerability are the key to connecting with your audience and making your story memorable. So if you can practice, then release it and be yourself on stage confidently and with an open heart. This is so good. Rudyard Kipling said if history were taught in the form of stories, it would never be forgotten. And I believe that. Stories bring everything to life. Robert McKee, storytelling guru, said stories are the creative conversion of life itself into a more powerful, clearer, and more meaningful experience. Like we're actually improving upon life when we can put it into a story. I agree with that, Robert McKee.

[49:25] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes.

[49:26] Susan Blackwell: And finally, Michael Margolis from Get Storied. We met him at the story conference in Nashville, Zeus. We had dinner with him. Oh, hey, Michael.

[49:34] Laura Camien: Hey, Michael.

[49:36] Susan Blackwell: I love this idea. And and I want to share this. He said the stories we tell literally make the world. If you want to change the world, you need to change your story. This truth applies both to individuals and institutions. We all have a story to tell. And I hope this little spark might inspire you to explore your story. Maybe tell it at The Moth, maybe write a screenplay, a TV series, a dance piece. Just tell your story.

[50:10] Laura Camien: I love this spark. Did I mention that I love this spark? I feel like the spark is going to, y'all, I have to get that book.

[50:18] Susan Blackwell: You have to get that book. It's so good. And that was such a good spark for. I'm so happy that you liked it. I hope everyone enjoyed it. There's so much more in that book. Like this could this could literally be a part one. But get that book. Listen, if you take nothing else away from this, know that those folks who make it look easy, your Spalding Grays, your Mike Barbiglia's, your Linda Berry's.

[50:40] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[50:41] Susan Blackwell: Fill of the blankers. I love a good storyteller, like a good old-fashioned storytelling storyteller. It's a craft, and they've put an enormous amount of work into it to make it look light as a hair. Easy. As if we're just around.

[50:59] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. On a porch. On a porch. Drinking bourbon with the moths circling the porch light.

[51:06] Laura Camien: Amen. Gotta put in the work.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Laura, that was beautiful.

[51:09] Laura Camien: Thanks, Zeus.

[51:10] Susan Blackwell: And I think that's it.

[51:12] Laura Camien: It is. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks and moths in your file. If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your stories to life, you can email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[51:42] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at The Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and if you are so moved, five-star review. This podcast, it really does help other listeners to find us. And if you like this podcast and you found it useful, we hope that you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, I hope that next time you're up on stage telling a story, people are like, boo!

[52:05] Laura Camien: Oh, that's so mean.

[52:07] Susan Blackwell: That's so mean. Jeez, sorry I take it all back. I thought you were gonna say, if you didn't like it, tell a story about it.

[52:13] Laura Camien: We'll hear it, we'll listen.

[52:15] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a filet.

[52:31] Laura Camien: You know, you gotta take it and make it great spark.

[52:37] Susan Blackwell: Yay. When I bope into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark fire. Spark could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark fire. I jump into my spark fire.

[53:02] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark fire.