This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file. To be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark spot.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide. Let's open up the Spark File.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Hey everybody! Welcome to the Spark File, your one stop print shop for creative inspiration. I'm Laura Camien.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are such good questions, and we have got answers.

[0:53] Laura Camien: A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, sometimes the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry. We're here to refill it.

[1:06] Susan Blackwell: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity. Things that inspire us to rise up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:19] Laura Camien: Or a limitless catalog of inspired graphic designs for brand logos, books, film, and TV shows. Including the title design for one of the most iconic and one of my favorite shows, Saturday Night Live.

[1:32] Susan Blackwell: Or a powerful visual history of protest and resistance in America from suffragettes to Black Lives Matter. Or a book devoted to helping non-creative clients learn how to get the most of the creative teams they hire.

[1:46] Laura Camien: On today's Makersode, we're gonna talk with someone who truly sparks us. And that special someone is Bonnie Siegler.

[1:53] Susan Blackwell: Bonnie! Welcome to the Spark File.

[1:58] Bonnie Siegler: You guys are adorable.

[2:01] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[2:02] Bonnie Siegler: No, you.

[2:04] Laura Camien: Did your life flash before your eyes?

[2:05] Bonnie Siegler: Yes, very much so.

[2:05] Susan Blackwell: I love there's this dawning realization with it.

[2:12] Bonnie Siegler: Exactly.

[2:13] Laura Camien: Hey, I did that. Wow.

[2:14] Bonnie Siegler: I also did that.

[2:16] Laura Camien: I thought you were going to say Will and Grace, actually.

[2:19] Bonnie Siegler: Oh, interesting.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: But you said Saturday Night Live.

[2:22] Bonnie Siegler: Oh.

[2:22] Laura Camien: Because she did Will and Grace.

[2:23] Bonnie Siegler: Interesting.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: Saturday Night Live, baby.

[2:26] Bonnie Siegler: She's an SNL.

[2:27] Susan Blackwell: Susan was actually like, what years didn't I know Bonnie?

[2:32] Bonnie Siegler: What casts are we talking about?

[2:33] Laura Camien: '93.

[2:35] Bonnie Siegler: And then plus 20 years.

[2:37] Laura Camien: But you also did like '96, '97.

[2:40] Bonnie Siegler: No, no.

[2:40] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 20 years, yeah.

[2:42] Bonnie Siegler: Can I?

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: And amazing.

[2:43] Bonnie Siegler: You know what? Maybe.

[2:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:45] Bonnie Siegler: I just want to make sure we get to it. I don't want to lose it.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: I, as a lifelong fan of that show, and I am, and I've said on the podcast before, I've never been a person who's been like, oh, I thought it was good one day in a car. I love it all.

[2:58] Bonnie Siegler: I love it all.

[3:02] Susan Blackwell: And I love the art direction and the titling on that fucking show.

[3:07] Bonnie Siegler: Thank you.

[3:08] Susan Blackwell: And here is the woman responsible.

[3:10] Bonnie Siegler: I don't FF.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: I don't FF through any of that ever, even when the technology allowed me to. I love looking at it all the way back, and this predates you, but all the way back to like the watercolor tint. I just have always thought it's so right on the leading edge, Bonnie Siegler.

[3:30] Bonnie Siegler: Thank you.

[3:31] Susan Blackwell: For the first few years, we just worked on parody commercials. And then we redesigned the logo, which we redesigned again and again.

[3:40] Bonnie Siegler: Um, but then in like '97, we started doing the opening sequence.

[3:44] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[3:45] Bonnie Siegler: So cool.

[3:46] Susan Blackwell: So cool. All right.

[3:47] Laura Camien: Okay. So as you know, before we truly get started, there is a price of admission. You need to share with us something that you have created recently or creative risk you've taken recently.

[3:59] Bonnie Siegler: Oh, that's easy.

[4:00] Laura Camien: Oh, okay. Well, right. Tell us.

[4:03] Bonnie Siegler: Um, I am I have a development deal for a TV show. That was my idea.

[4:08] Laura Camien: Shut it.

[4:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. Are we the first one?

[4:11] Bonnie Siegler: Have you ever been? I can't. I can't tell. I can't say any details because I mean I've never done anything like that.

[4:19] Laura Camien: Do you have a development deal for a TV show?

[4:22] Bonnie Siegler: You were gonna say a fucking TV show.

[4:25] Laura Camien: That's fantastic.

[4:26] Bonnie Siegler: Not surprised me. How does it so this you've never done anything like this before?

[4:30] Bonnie Siegler: Not where it was my not where I've sold the idea. No.

[4:34] Laura Camien: That's oh my god. Okay, tell us about the part though that just like made you want to shake your pants. Like, was it the pitching it? Was it knowing that it's gonna happen?

[4:44] Bonnie Siegler: Three years.

[4:45] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh. I never knew. Like when people at the Oscars say, like, well, I've been working on this developing it for 10 years. I was always like, why? Why is it taking so long? Now I know.

[4:56] Bonnie Siegler: Three years. And and we still haven't started.

[5:00] Laura Camien: Things of quality take time.

[5:01] Bonnie Siegler: They really do.

[5:03] Laura Camien: Is that I'm just curious. Like, is that part of it hard for you? Because I know you as someone who's like, do do do. Let's get it done.

[5:10] Bonnie Siegler: Yes, but I've done other, I mean, I it's not my job my main job. So I was working the whole time. I wasn't like waiting for the doorbell to ring or the phone to ring.

[5:19] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that makes it easier.

[5:21] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah. Will there come a time when this goes into production where it does become more the center of your existence?

[5:28] Bonnie Siegler: Absolutely. I hope so. It's so exciting. I wanted to. It's just something totally different for me.

[5:33] Laura Camien: It is. So that's what's well excited for you. That is thrilling. Good risk.

[5:36] Susan Blackwell: Okay, you're officially admitted to the Spark File. Welcome.

[5:40] Bonnie Siegler: Thank you. Uh, full disclosure, I should say at the top that I had the pleasure of working with Bonnie when I was the creative director and head writer on a book called Blue Man World. Bonnie and her team at eight and a half did a beautiful work on this book.

[5:55] Laura Camien: So I know you a little bit, but for people who don't know you, can you tell us? It's a two-parter.

[6:00] Bonnie Siegler: Okay. How do you identify creatively? And where are most people most likely to have seen your work or encountered your work?

[6:10] Bonnie Siegler: Okay, wait. First, I have can I say what you said to me the other night when I saw you?

[6:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think.

[6:16] Bonnie Siegler: What did I say?

[6:18] Bonnie Siegler: So we worked together a lot. No, no, no alcohol was involved. We um so we made this book together years ago. And then since then I wrote this book called Dear Client, which aims to you know what I'm gonna say.

[6:31] Laura Camien: Oh no, they'll say it.

[6:32] Bonnie Siegler: Okay, horrifying. Which aims to teach people how to work with creative people because you in order for it to be successful, both sides have to be happy and satisfied. It doesn't work if only one is.

[6:44] Laura Camien: And so Laura said to me after she read my book, she realized how badly they had done when they were my clients.

[6:52] Bonnie Siegler: I'd be in clients.

[6:53] Laura Camien: But I have to say that made me feel so good. I told I told people that you said that. Like it means my book made a difference.

[7:01] Bonnie Siegler: You heard it, it. It went into your head, and it's not like you anybody has to be perfect, but some things went in and they will come out for the next guy.

[7:09] Laura Camien: That's right. That's right. That means a lot to me. I was just telling Susan, like, you know, you don't know, I guess, until you know. If you're someone who starts out as a creative coordinator, as you write about in the book, um, you're just doing it the way the guy above you told you to do it. Don't just call them, send an RFP, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[7:29] Bonnie Siegler: Um, and then as you grow and learn, you're like, oh my God, I think there's a better way to do this. And maybe some of the things I, you know, that I witnessed in, you know, not just with your agency, but others, there are better ways to do it.

[7:45] Laura Camien: And you outlined it for us. So thank you.

[7:47] Bonnie Siegler: You're welcome.

[7:48] Laura Camien: Ask.

[7:49] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah. I wasn't there. I didn't see any of this go down. Bonnie, did you agree with Laura's assessment that they had been kind of a challenging client?

[7:57] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, Laura knew it at the time. It was a difficult process.

[8:01] Bonnie Siegler: There was rough. And we weren't breach birth all the way. But but I'm always honest about stuff like that. I'm not going to go like whimper in the corner.

[8:12] Bonnie Siegler: We talked about it. We tried to find better ways to move forward.

[8:15] Laura Camien: My God, I love you. I love like honesty is one thing you can count on from like I don't I see you, and I think like you're not capable of bullshitting through an answer without telling the truth.

[8:26] Bonnie Siegler: You're like, I'm gonna give you the truth.

[8:28] Laura Camien: And I have no poker face.

[8:30] Bonnie Siegler: I love it. I personally love it because I feel like if you know what's going on with someone, then you can deal with it. And like now we can talk about it. But when someone has a great poker face and they're like, no, everything's great, it's fine. You're like, I don't feel like it's fine.

[8:45] Laura Camien: Right. You can't you can't deal with it.

[8:46] Bonnie Siegler: Well, and that's one of the things in the book is some I tell a story about a client who said, Oh my god, I love I love all of this. It's amazing. And then the next day had her representative call to say, No, no, no, she hated it all.

[8:46] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[9:01] Bonnie Siegler: Oh okay. Have we said the title of the book? Have we actually said the title of this book?

[9:07] Laura Camien: We have not.

[9:08] Bonnie Siegler: I'll do the subtitle.

[9:11] Laura Camien: Okay.

[9:12] Bonnie Siegler: Dear Client is the title.

[9:14] Laura Camien: Subtitle.

[9:15] Bonnie Siegler: This book will teach you how to get what you want from creative people.

[9:19] Laura Camien: It's brilliant. It's genius.

[9:20] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[9:22] Laura Camien: And it's just like you, it's straightforward. It's like boom, boom, boom. Like, let's not bullshit around this. Here's how it is.

[9:28] Bonnie Siegler: The best thing for me about it is we made a deal with a bookstore in Austin, Texas called Book People, and you can have the book sent anonymously.

[9:40] Laura Camien: No way.

[9:41] Bonnie Siegler: No way.

[9:43] Laura Camien: Dear Valentine, please be a better fucking guy.

[9:47] Bonnie Siegler: That's amazing.

[9:48] Laura Camien: It arrives in like like the way Brown paper, like porno.

[9:51] Bonnie Siegler: Exactly.

[9:52] Laura Camien: Like porn magazines used to arrive in the olden days. Umbody will know who sent it.

[9:58] Bonnie Siegler: That is fucking awesome.

[10:00] Laura Camien: Okay, so this can be off the record, but I need to know like was the I looked at the date that you published that book.

[10:07] Bonnie Siegler: Almost two years ago.

[10:15] Laura Camien: Oh my god, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, okay, good.

[10:17] Bonnie Siegler: Because I was like, it's sort of lines up. You're like, there is not a there is not a blue man story in the book.

[10:23] Laura Camien: Oh, oh great.

[10:25] Bonnie Siegler: Okay, good. I that's really good. And I have to tell you, everybody asks me. Am I like, yeah, I do that. Everybody wants the book to be about them on some line.

[10:33] Laura Camien: Not in the lesson.

[10:34] Bonnie Siegler: On some line.

[10:36] Laura Camien: Well, you read it and you're like, I know whether it was with Bonnie or someone else. I know that groups of people I've worked with, we've been guilty of this. We've been guilty of that.

[10:44] Bonnie Siegler: Like you recognize yourself in it as you read.

[10:48] Laura Camien: What an amazing thing to do with. I have to imagine, tell me if I'm wrong, but this was born out of a career full of frustration. But what an amazing thing to do with those feelings to actually pour them into something creative that is of service.

[11:03] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it was a public service, but it wasn't born out of frustration, actually. What it was born out of was I I'm involved with the National Organization of Design, AIGA, and you'd go to conferences and everyone would talk, and all they would do is complain about clients.

[11:19] Bonnie Siegler: And it was the same story. Everybody had the same 10 stories. Just like, why do we all know these 10 stories? And they don't know these 10 stories. So what if I we just gave them the benefit of the doubt and assume they just don't know. They're not bad people, and tell them.

[11:38] Laura Camien: It's fantastic.

[11:39] Bonnie Siegler: It makes so much sense because if you're not a creative person, you don't you make a lot of assumptions because you're telling me you worked away on it. Do you know what I mean? Like if you are the head of a soap company.

[11:53] Laura Camien: That's correct.

[11:54] Bonnie Siegler: You might be like, and I do watercolors on the weekend. Like, and blessed.

[11:58] Laura Camien: That's right. I don't, I'm not, this isn't a takedown of CEOs who do watercolors on the weekend, but it's like, but you may overestimate your professional capabilities when it comes to things like I don't know, design.

[12:11] Bonnie Siegler: Well, I think that, and you also might be working in a culture where it's not okay to not have the answer. So the people at the end of the day.

[12:21] Laura Camien: No, I I like watercolors on the weekend. It's my new band name.

[12:25] Bonnie Siegler: But um, I think that there's times when there's people around the room and there's a person who says I like it, and that person can't possibly be as smart as the person who's like, I'm gonna rip that apart. Uh I got some ideas, I know how to fix this.

[12:41] Laura Camien: Criticism is always taken more seriously than praise.

[12:44] Bonnie Siegler: Like in a focus group. If someone criticizes something, then everyone else is like, oh, I must not be as smart as them because I liked it. And it's hard to go against the crowd, which is why I hate focus groups.

[12:55] Bonnie Siegler: But the thing in the book sort of connected to watercolors on the weekends, there's a chapter called Um Watercolors on the Weekends.

[13:03] Laura Camien: Please let it be.

[13:04] Bonnie Siegler: God damn it.

[13:05] Laura Camien: But it relates.

[13:06] Bonnie Siegler: It's called Um, We Don't Care What Your Spouse Thinks.

[13:12] Laura Camien: Very related.

[13:14] Bonnie Siegler: Oh my God, I have to get the My husband is a graphic designer and he must own this book.

[13:18] Laura Camien: I think he's gonna love it.

[13:19] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, I've literally been told, well, I showed it to my 12-year-old, she has really good taste in design and things, and she said I'm totally serious.

[13:29] Laura Camien: Let me jump back in.

[13:30] Bonnie Siegler: I want to jump back in.

[13:32] Laura Camien: So when people when you're at a professional function or at a cocktail party and people ask you what you do or how you identify creatively, how would you answer that?

[13:40] Bonnie Siegler: I'm a graphic designer.

[13:42] Laura Camien: And to Laura's question, where what of your work would people be most familiar with?

[13:48] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, probably the TV stuff, most likely, network TV and cable TV.

[13:53] Bonnie Siegler: I've worked on a lot of shows with HBO, a lot for NBC.

[13:59] Laura Camien: Can you give us some names?

[14:01] Bonnie Siegler: Just you know, just drop a few names.

[14:03] Bonnie Siegler: Sure. Well, Will and Grace, we did the very first season and every season thereafter, including this current batch.

[14:10] Bonnie Siegler: There've been a few sitcoms that didn't last very long that I won't do.

[14:16] Laura Camien: Correct.

[14:16] Bonnie Siegler: Um, the logo for 30 Rock.

[14:19] Laura Camien: Wow.

[14:19] Bonnie Siegler: Um, and hotels. We've done a lot of hotels in New York, The Mercer, the Maritime.

[14:25] Bonnie Siegler: We did stuff for Chateau Marmont.

[14:27] Bonnie Siegler: And a million books.

[14:28] Laura Camien: A million books.

[14:29] Bonnie Siegler: There's actually a book that Susan is familiar with when I told her that I knew you and was hoping we you would do our podcast.

[14:38] Bonnie Siegler: Susan was like, Hold on. Did you do the book that accompanied the release of the film Beloved?

[14:45] Bonnie Siegler: Yes.

[14:47] Susan Blackwell: Fun true fact.

[14:49] Bonnie Siegler: I remember standing in a Barnes and Noble at one of those big tables that has I mean, there are like 1,000 books you could gravitate towards.

[15:00] Bonnie Siegler: And that is the book that I could not step away from.

[15:05] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, I thought the movie was beautiful.

[15:08] Bonnie Siegler: I remember when we went to the casting crew screening, my partner and I literally sat there for 20 minutes after crying.

[15:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[15:14] Bonnie Siegler: Like I just couldn't stop sobbing.

[15:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[15:16] Bonnie Siegler: But Oprah, just to make a connection here, Oprah is the very first story in the book of a great client.

[15:23] Laura Camien: Oh.

[15:24] Bonnie Siegler: And why was Oprah a great client?

[15:26] Bonnie Siegler: She, so we sent, we didn't know what to expect.

[15:30] Bonnie Siegler: We didn't know how involved she would be.

[15:32] Bonnie Siegler: And when we sent the first like set of sketches, she called, like she dialed.

[15:38] Bonnie Siegler: Like there wasn't an assistant saying hold for Oprah.

[15:42] Bonnie Siegler: And then we're like, what's the Chicago number?

[15:44] Bonnie Siegler: Who do we know in that area code?

[15:46] Bonnie Siegler: No, somebody's amazing.

[15:47] Bonnie Siegler: My assistant said Oprah's on the phone, and I just assumed it would be please hold on.

[15:51] Bonnie Siegler: An office.

[15:52] Laura Camien: Yes.

[15:52] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[15:53] Bonnie Siegler: No.

[15:53] Bonnie Siegler: And then we went through the book and she asked a million questions, and she would say, Why did you do this?

[15:58] Bonnie Siegler: And sometimes when we answered, she'd say, Oh, okay, I understand now.

[16:02] Bonnie Siegler: And sometimes she's I still don't like it.

[16:04] Bonnie Siegler: But it was just a conversation, and she gave us the chance to explain what we did, so that maybe it would make a difference.

[16:14] Bonnie Siegler: But we had a great conversation, which then pushed us to do better for the rest of the project.

[16:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh god.

[16:20] Laura Camien: Do you say in the book?

[16:21] Bonnie Siegler: Um, I don't want to get this wrong, but you there were some magic phrases like um, I'm noticing this.

[16:27] Bonnie Siegler: Oh, it's uh wonder this.

[16:30] Bonnie Siegler: I notice, I wonder uh-huh as a way to respond.

[16:33] Bonnie Siegler: It's it was actually developed for responding to children's artwork.

[16:37] Laura Camien: I was gonna say, keep going, but this seems like it could apply to a lot of different creatives.

[16:42] Bonnie Siegler: Absolutely, because you never want, I mean, you don't want to be honest with a child, like that doesn't look like a cow or whatever, but because you always want to encourage them to keep going.

[16:52] Bonnie Siegler: So you say what you notice, and this goes for critting design work too.

[16:57] Bonnie Siegler: You just say what you notice, no judgment involved.

[17:00] Bonnie Siegler: I notice it's very colorful, very poppy.

[17:04] Bonnie Siegler: Again, no judgment because what you notice might not be what we even thought you would notice, and then you move on to I wonder what would happen if, which is not saying I don't like it, make it yellow.

[17:16] Bonnie Siegler: Yes, or can you move this over here and make this bigger?

[17:19] Bonnie Siegler: Right, but like just by prefacing it with I wonder if it wasn't in that order, or I wonder if the scale was different.

[17:25] Bonnie Siegler: I notice I changes our whole relationship.

[17:29] Laura Camien: I'm going to try to notice remember that.

[17:31] Bonnie Siegler: Maybe we'll have it printed on a t-shirt to help me.

[17:34] Bonnie Siegler: I notice, I wonder, I think that's so good.

[17:38] Bonnie Siegler: And so applicable.

[17:39] Laura Camien: And as somebody on the receiving end of that, you know from experience that that feels more collaborative, or that goes down easier.

[17:48] Bonnie Siegler: Well, someone's not telling you what to do.

[17:50] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[17:50] Bonnie Siegler: And they're inviting dialogue.

[17:52] Bonnie Siegler: And they're not saying something is wrong with it when it's simply a subjective, it's a different choice.

[17:56] Laura Camien: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be exactly those words.

[17:59] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[18:00] Bonnie Siegler: But just that general idea of inviting dialogue rather than giving commands.

[18:05] Bonnie Siegler: I feel like this applies to everything.

[18:07] Bonnie Siegler: I can see a director speaking to an actor.

[18:10] Bonnie Siegler: It's so much, it's so respectful.

[18:12] Bonnie Siegler: Or um giving feedback to a writer once you read a draft of something.

[18:18] Bonnie Siegler: It's so respectful.

[18:20] Bonnie Siegler: No, the a lot of the stuff.

[18:21] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, the one of the quotes I have in the beginning of the book is from Mr. Rogers, which says the way to success.

[18:28] Bonnie Siegler: There are three ways to success.

[18:30] Bonnie Siegler: One is be nice, two is be nice, and three is be nice.

[18:35] Laura Camien: Sounds like it applies to a lot of things.

[18:38] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[18:39] Bonnie Siegler: That's fantastic.

[18:40] Laura Camien: Can you tell us a little bit more about your creative origin story?

[18:44] Laura Camien: Like, was it always graphic design for you?

[18:47] Bonnie Siegler: Do you dabble in other visual arts?

[18:49] Bonnie Siegler: How'd you get here?

[18:51] Bonnie Siegler: Um I didn't know what graphic design was for a long time.

[18:56] Bonnie Siegler: But when I was like 13, we went on a family vacation to Disney World.

[19:01] Bonnie Siegler: And at Disney World, it was the first place I saw what brand identity could do.

[19:08] Bonnie Siegler: There were these different worlds, and everything was branded so completely and totally.

[19:14] Bonnie Siegler: Everything the like the hotel amenities and the tickets and everything.

[19:18] Bonnie Siegler: They're good.

[19:19] Bonnie Siegler: And it blew my mind.

[19:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:21] Bonnie Siegler: I didn't know why I was so drawn to it, but I was so drawn to it.

[19:25] Bonnie Siegler: So then I started drawing like band logos and making ads for different companies.

[19:31] Bonnie Siegler: Watercolors on the weekends.

[19:32] Laura Camien: Could you do the logo for that?

[19:34] Bonnie Siegler: Fantastic.

[19:35] Bonnie Siegler: Magic markers.

[19:36] Bonnie Siegler: But anyway, but same idea.

[19:38] Bonnie Siegler: I love it.

[19:39] Bonnie Siegler: And I made, I would like find a company like Kleenex and make ads for them.

[19:44] Bonnie Siegler: Like that I thought.

[19:47] Laura Camien: That's fucking awesome.

[19:49] Bonnie Siegler: Then I discovered Andy Warhol.

[19:52] Laura Camien: Oh.

[19:53] Bonnie Siegler: What happened then?

[19:55] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, he was just everything to me.

[19:57] Bonnie Siegler: I was so blown away because again, because he was taking these brands that we knew and loved and making you look at them a different way.

[20:05] Bonnie Siegler: And why weren't they art anyway?

[20:07] Bonnie Siegler: And all these amazing questions that I'd never thought about.

[20:10] Bonnie Siegler: So I went to college where he went to college.

[20:14] Laura Camien: Did you really?

[20:16] Bonnie Siegler: Specifically to follow in the footsteps of Andy Warhol.

[20:19] Laura Camien: I think that's legit.

[20:21] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, it really I will say I also had a very specific thing.

[20:25] Bonnie Siegler: I wanted to go to a design school within a bigger school.

[20:28] Bonnie Siegler: And there was only one.

[20:29] Bonnie Siegler: And it happened to be where he went.

[20:31] Laura Camien: So it wasn't, it was like a little bit of both.

[20:33] Bonnie Siegler: Can I ask you as somebody who I did had no fucking idea about any of like I didn't I never toured schools?

[20:41] Bonnie Siegler: I didn't, I just didn't fucking know.

[20:43] Laura Camien: How did you know as a young person that you wanted to go to a design school that was within a bigger school?

[20:49] Bonnie Siegler: How the fuck did you put that together?

[20:51] Bonnie Siegler: Very specific and mature.

[20:53] Bonnie Siegler: Did you have a really super duper guidance counselor or something?

[20:56] Bonnie Siegler: No, no.

[20:56] Bonnie Siegler: My guidance counselor hadn't heard of Carnegie Mellon.

[20:59] Laura Camien: Okay.

[21:00] Bonnie Siegler: So I brought him to her.

[21:01] Laura Camien: So how so what about how did you figure that out?

[21:05] Bonnie Siegler: I don't I don't remember.

[21:06] Bonnie Siegler: It was a long time ago.

[21:07] Bonnie Siegler: I think it was just I had done a summer program at Parsons, and I saw, you know, you're with everybody's like you.

[21:15] Bonnie Siegler: Everybody wants the same thing as you and is thinking of the same things.

[21:19] Bonnie Siegler: And I think I just thought I want to be where there are other kinds of people too for these four years.

[21:25] Laura Camien: So you didn't want it just to be like like designer homogeny.

[21:29] Bonnie Siegler: You wanted it.

[21:31] Bonnie Siegler: All the majors.

[21:32] Bonnie Siegler: Yes.

[21:32] Bonnie Siegler: And I double majored in English.

[21:34] Bonnie Siegler: So I wanted also to be able to do that.

[21:36] Laura Camien: That's great.

[21:38] Bonnie Siegler: Super smart.

[21:38] Laura Camien: Thanks for the tip.

[21:39] Bonnie Siegler: So you followed Andy there.

[21:41] Bonnie Siegler: Yes.

[21:42] Bonnie Siegler: And it was there that you were like learned that you're very specifically a graphic designer.

[21:48] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, you had to.

[21:49] Bonnie Siegler: That's the other thing about Carnegie Mellon, which makes it unique, is you have to declare your major.

[21:53] Bonnie Siegler: There's like no, I wonder, I'll decide sophomore year.

[21:56] Bonnie Siegler: I'll decide like you knew.

[21:57] Bonnie Siegler: So I applied to be a graphic design major.

[21:59] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[22:00] Bonnie Siegler: So I knew before I applied.

[22:01] Laura Camien: Got it.

[22:02] Bonnie Siegler: Jumping back when you were designing those band logos and those Kleenex logos in your trapper keeper.

[22:08] Laura Camien: Are you a gifted?

[22:09] Bonnie Siegler: Can you like draw?

[22:11] Bonnie Siegler: Are you gifted visual artists if you're just saying doing watercolors on the weekend?

[22:15] Bonnie Siegler: No.

[22:15] Bonnie Siegler: Really?

[22:17] Bonnie Siegler: I can't draw.

[22:18] Bonnie Siegler: You can't draw.

[22:20] Bonnie Siegler: I'm terrible, but I'm married to someone who can.

[22:23] Laura Camien: Okay.

[22:24] Bonnie Siegler: That's helpful.

[22:25] Bonnie Siegler: That's interesting.

[22:26] Bonnie Siegler: So I use him a lot.

[22:28] Bonnie Siegler: But when you so then when you combined, like you obviously had a vision that maybe you couldn't draw, but once you got on the computer and built your skills, you were like, oh, now I can make it.

[22:39] Bonnie Siegler: I'm really old, so there were no computers.

[22:41] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[22:42] Bonnie Siegler: Um, but I could always draw type.

[22:45] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[22:45] Bonnie Siegler: Okay.

[22:45] Bonnie Siegler: I love type and color and layout and all of those other elements.

[22:49] Bonnie Siegler: Illustration is more about really being able to draw than graphic design, which is another reason I was drawn to graphic design.

[22:57] Bonnie Siegler: No pun intended.

[22:58] Bonnie Siegler: So I went to college from 1981 to 1985.

[23:02] Bonnie Siegler: 1984 is when the first Macintosh came out.

[23:06] Bonnie Siegler: So it really wasn't until like 87 with Mac 2.

[23:10] Bonnie Siegler: And even then there wasn't a really good design program.

[23:13] Bonnie Siegler: Mm-hmm.

[23:14] Bonnie Siegler: So it was a while before the computer, you know, kicked into my industry.

[23:18] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah.

[23:18] Bonnie Siegler: With Quark Express.

[23:20] Laura Camien: And now so you learned all of that stuff, all of that layout by hand, right?

[23:24] Bonnie Siegler: Like old school.

[23:26] Bonnie Siegler: And then when now can you do all of that Adobe Illustrator?

[23:31] Bonnie Siegler: You can do all of that stuff.

[23:33] Bonnie Siegler: Yes.

[23:33] Bonnie Siegler: When when in the olden days you got a bot piece of text, like let's say you were whatever, and I mean a poster and you got a typed sheet with all the text on it, and you would to write the typeface and the size and the letting that you wanted each thing to be in.

[23:50] Bonnie Siegler: And then you sent that out and it came back the next day.

[23:54] Bonnie Siegler: And if you didn't and then you cut it up.

[23:55] Bonnie Siegler: And if you didn't like it, you had to send it back out again that night.

[23:59] Bonnie Siegler: I mean compared to what we can do now.

[24:01] Bonnie Siegler: Yes in three minutes time.

[24:04] Bonnie Siegler: It's insane.

[24:05] Laura Camien: Bonnie, I heard you speak recently, which was a joy, by the way, honestly.

[24:10] Laura Camien: I'd not seen you present, you know, any of your work in a setting like that.

[24:15] Laura Camien: So it was really I really loved it.

[24:17] Bonnie Siegler: Um, but you mentioned that there was a point in your career where you made a real shift into I guess creative activism um and political work.

[24:28] Bonnie Siegler: Can you tell us a bit about that and how that happened?

[24:31] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, sure.

[24:32] Bonnie Siegler: We were hired to do the identity for a radio station, a new radio station called Air America Radio, which was kind of when right wing radio was growing bigger and bigger and bigger, pre-Fox.

[24:43] Bonnie Siegler: Um, so this was the answer to that to have left wing radio.

[24:47] Bonnie Siegler: So we did the identity, we did and we did all the you know marketing materials and everything, and it was really exciting because I felt like this could make a difference.

[24:57] Bonnie Siegler: We could really make a difference here.

[24:58] Bonnie Siegler: Um it was the 2004 election, and of course, we did not make a difference.

[25:03] Bonnie Siegler: Um, but then when Obama was running four years later, you know, he was it, he was everything.

[25:10] Bonnie Siegler: So I was like, what can I do?

[25:11] Bonnie Siegler: What can I do?

[25:12] Bonnie Siegler: So we had um a fundraiser first in Dumbo called um a bridge to somewhere because Sarah Pellin had been talking about a bridge to nowhere, and it was just over the Brooklyn Bridge, somewhere.

[25:24] Bonnie Siegler: Um, and then four years later we did one called Baracklin at the Brooklyn Bowl.

[25:30] Bonnie Siegler: And then for Hillary, we did one called it was a it was a huge event.

[25:35] Bonnie Siegler: We raised over a million dollars, and it was called Laugh Your Pants Suit Off.

[25:39] Bonnie Siegler: And it was just women stand-up comedians, and it was amazing.

[25:44] Bonnie Siegler: It was really great.

[25:45] Bonnie Siegler: But but and then with with my friends, we do lots of smaller events for different candidates that we believe in.

[25:52] Bonnie Siegler: So together, you and your group of collaborators, you conceive of these events, and then I imagine that you join superpowers. You have this graphic design superpower, I'm sure they have other superpowers, and you make these things happen and raise a lot of money for the cause.

[26:10] Laura Camien: Yes, exactly.

[26:11] Susan Blackwell: Fantastic.

[26:11] Bonnie Siegler: We had one before the 2018 election called Flip Off the GOP for four Democratic candidates, and three of them here in New York, and three of them did flip seats.

[26:23] Laura Camien: So it was really exciting.

[26:24] Susan Blackwell: That is exciting to help make a difference. Is this how your book, Signs of Resistance, came into being? Was it sort of did it grow out of this activity?

[26:30] Bonnie Siegler: No, no, weirdly it didn't. The book came because Adobe has this very big conference with like 13,000 attendees.

[26:40] Laura Camien: Is that Adobe Max?

[26:42] Bonnie Siegler: Yes, Adobe Max.

[26:43] Susan Blackwell: Very good.

[26:45] Bonnie Siegler: So they asked me to speak, and they said, "So what we'd like you to speak about the future of design." And I said, "I don't know anything about the future of design." And they said, "Oh, okay, what do you want to talk about?" And I was like, "Well, there's nothing but the resistance. I can't talk about anything but the resistance." And so they said, "Okay, talk about the resistance." And so I made this talk, and people really responded to it in a way that I didn't anticipate. And so I showed my publisher my talk. Actually, I gave the talk to the whole publishing house, and they were like, "How quickly can you make it?" So that's how that became my second book.

[27:26] Laura Camien: You didn't—did you realize it was a book pitch that you were giving, or you were just like, "I'm giving my talk again"?

[27:31] Bonnie Siegler: It's, uh, I really like this talk. Somewhere in between. I didn't know. I was hoping—it hadn't occurred to me. I had a specific reason for doing the talk.

[27:39] Susan Blackwell: Y'all, this book, Signs of Resistance. Get yourself to a bookstore or get around online and get this book. It is a beautiful book.

[27:50] Bonnie Siegler: Thank you.

[27:50] Susan Blackwell: You mentioned like being really riled up after the, you know, the election. Um, and so was that timing—did that correlate, like you being passionately angry and them asking you to speak?

[28:05] Bonnie Siegler: I think it was like June that they asked me to speak in November or in October, and then the book was—I sent the files out in January. So it happened really quickly. But I had already did have the talk. I mean, I, you know, I had done a lot of—

[28:19] Laura Camien: So you had started to pull a lot of those.

[28:23] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, but then I had to get permissions.

[28:25] Laura Camien: Yeah. That's a big project.

[28:26] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah. I—when I was reading it, I was like, you're a historian.

[28:31] Susan Blackwell: I love history.

[28:32] Bonnie Siegler: It shows beautifully in that book. It shows—did digging into all of that art and all of those historical protest signs, did it soothe you? Did it rile you up further? How did—

[28:42] Bonnie Siegler: No, no, it definitely soothed me because it—I mean, you know, when at this moment that we're speaking, the impeachment trial isn't over, so I can't talk about today without, you know, getting hysterical. But at the time, it made me feel better to recognize all the incredibly difficult times we've survived in America.

[29:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:04] Bonnie Siegler: And that, you know, people and women have stood up and made those changes happen slowly sometimes. Like I told in the talk you saw, to get suffrage, it began in 1848 and ended in 1920. That means women were shouting for 72 years.

[29:22] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[29:23] Bonnie Siegler: Oh my gosh. 72 years is so many years.

[29:26] Laura Camien: I know.

[29:26] Bonnie Siegler: It's a lot of years. Those are lifetimes.

[29:29] Laura Camien: I know.

[29:29] Bonnie Siegler: And we learn about them in about a 30-minute, you know, class somewhere in our high school trajectory.

[29:37] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[29:37] Bonnie Siegler: Hopefully.

[29:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:38] Bonnie Siegler: Hopefully we do. Yeah, but 72 years. But there were tons of really difficult times where the country was at peril and really divided, not counting the Civil War or counting the Civil War. And so that made me—that comforted me to see how much we've survived. Today I don't feel that way.

[29:56] Susan Blackwell: But is there—just jumping back to what you said a moment ago? I cannot imagine how what a project it was to get the rights for all of this material. Was there anything that you didn't get the rights to that you were like, "Oh, this is a heartbreaker"?

[30:12] Bonnie Siegler: Yes. And some things were super expensive. I mean, a lot—like colleagues of mine gave me, but there were a few historical things we had to pay for, and some things were just absurd. So we just couldn't do it.

[30:27] Laura Camien: Wow, that's so interesting.

[30:28] Bonnie Siegler: What a shame. Like that they won't be counted.

[30:31] Laura Camien: Historical items.

[30:32] Bonnie Siegler: I know. Historical items won't be in a historical timeline. It's an amazing thing that you've compiled. It's really something that's nice.

[30:42] Susan Blackwell: No, it really is. We're not just buttering your bread; it's filling out as well. Um, was there—in addition to that sort of riled up feeling that you had after the election, was there a—you did it so quickly too? You accomplished it so quickly and turned it around. Was there a specific goal that you were carrying in your head or your heart as you were running this across the finish line so quickly?

[31:06] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, I mean, after I did the talk, I felt like that was like—I felt a real accomplishment, like to share all of this and encourage people to become active, like all these Americans had done before them for whatever you care about. Just get involved because when you're not involved, then you really can't complain.

[31:31] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[31:31] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, people do, but you really care about it. Almost to inspire. So I wanted to inspire activism, and I feel like it, so I was just like, "I'm done." That was great when I finished the talk.

[31:41] Bonnie Siegler: Um, and then the book was just that on another level.

[31:44] Susan Blackwell: Fantastic. I'd say, I mean, goal achieved. It's impossible to like look at that book and not feel inspired and to not realize, you know, and I know you're working on another or just finished another project called We Are the Dream.

[32:00] Bonnie Siegler: Yes.

[32:00] Susan Blackwell: Where I think that's gonna inspire more activists as well. Could you tell us about that?

[32:06] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, absolutely. I just posted it on Instagram today.

[32:09] Laura Camien: I might have seen it.

[32:10] Bonnie Siegler: Um, but I already knew because you told me about it. It's a documentary on HBO called We Are the Dream, and it's the Oakland, California MLK Oratorical Project. So it's a big contest across middle schools, and the kids have to get on stage and recite from memory either a speech of MLK, something they wrote, or something else that's sort of inspired by MLK. And these kids work really hard and are so inspiring. I mean, again, you're just gonna be weeping by the end. It's a beautiful show.

[32:42] Susan Blackwell: I cannot wait to see it.

[32:43] Bonnie Siegler: That's great. Do you feel a sense of responsibility to use your graphic superpowers for good?

[32:53] Bonnie Siegler: Oh, definitely, but I feel like everybody should feel a sense of responsibility to use their superpowers for good. Everybody has a superpower.

[32:59] Laura Camien: You wouldn't think that, wouldn't you? You'd think that people would want to do that.

[33:04] Bonnie Siegler: To reiterate that when we can. It was really palpable when we were looking actually at both of the books that we've talked about for clients, and also these—they're both so strong and powerful. And you can see how if somebody was as gifted as any of the graphic designers represented, they could use that for the powers of not good.

[33:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, but create—

[33:30] Bonnie Siegler: But actually, I mean, people often bring up, you know, that kind of thing about the other side. But artists tend to be on this side of the divide because they have an open mind, yeah, and are thinking about things outside of their bank account. And they have empathy and yes, naturally sensitive with empathy. So it just ends—it works out that way. But the other thing about everybody in the book was nobody asked anybody—almost everything in the book, with the exception of, you know, a poster for the government or something, but nobody asked anybody to do these things. Their only client was their own conscience, their own drum. I know that they granted themselves permission to express themselves.

[34:19] Laura Camien: It makes so much sense.

[34:21] Bonnie Siegler: When you look through that book, some of those designs, many of those designs are so inspired that it's—shocking, they're beautiful pieces of art. But I'm also like, that is so smart, it's so clever.

[34:37] Bonnie Siegler: But you know what else? I've done workshops like poster workshops with people, and all you have to do really is figure out what you care about the most, like dig deep down what makes you—the—I mean, especially for women's marches, but what makes you the angriest? Yes, and try and express that, and then it will be authentic and moving. We did an episode recently at I did a spark about making change, and I was like, "Here's a formula for you. Pick one thing. Just pick one, absolve yourself of the responsibility of the rest of the dumpster fire that is happening in the world right now, and actually do something."

[35:15] Laura Camien: But I love what you're saying, which is pick that thing, pick that thing that's really like burning a hole in your ass and find a way to express it.

[35:26] Bonnie Siegler: I think I've never heard that expression before.

[35:32] Bonnie Siegler: But I just think it—I think where the brilliance comes is some of those things that I see that people have arrived at. It's represented in the book. I'm like, "How did you think of that?" It's so brilliant. There's so many examples of just these flashes of creative brilliance. Did you have any major takeaway after looking at all of this?

[35:55] Bonnie Siegler: Um, all of these examples from history. Just in regard to like the sheer power of graphic design to impact emotions and opinions.

[36:10] Bonnie Siegler: Not from this book. I mean, that's just something I've known. I mean, literally from being a kid with actual albums, the big ones. Those covers, I mean, they had all the emotion in it. They—I can't separate those visuals from the music.

[36:27] Laura Camien: Yes, that's right.

[36:28] Bonnie Siegler: What album covers did you fucking love when you were growing up?

[36:31] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, all the Beatles, but Captain Fantastic. I mean, I could stare at that for hours.

[36:37] Susan Blackwell: That's a good album cover if you can just like fall into that.

[36:41] Bonnie Siegler: Those—who was it? Journey and Rush. I feel like I remember being on the school bus on the long rural drive to school, and one of the Tharp boys bringing like their Rush album and just spending like a 30-minute bus ride just like looking at that album cover.

[37:02] Laura Camien: I know, it's a total—it's such a shame to not have that because to look up lyrics, you go online and you find the thing. Do you print it out? Do you not print it out? But when you sit and listen to music and look at it also, it was just a completely different experience.

[37:19] Bonnie Siegler: And your beanbag theory was—

[37:21] Laura Camien: I'm being such an old person.

[37:22] Bonnie Siegler: No, I'm with you.

[37:23] Bonnie Siegler: But I miss it, is all, because I don't do it anymore. I mean, I even—I printed out the lyrics to Hamilton, you know.

[37:30] Laura Camien: Yes, of course.

[37:31] Bonnie Siegler: But it wasn't the same to have my 20 pieces of paper.

[37:35] Laura Camien: No, and you get it from some site that doesn't look like it's really—anyway.

[37:41] Bonnie Siegler: When I bought the CD. I mean, when I bought the MP3, whatever it was, that you get the book.

[37:46] Laura Camien: Oh, okay.

[37:47] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, okay.

[37:47] Bonnie Siegler: And then so it was official.

[37:49] Laura Camien: Okay.

[37:50] Bonnie Siegler: But we also don't have the free time that we had to like make an afternoon of sitting and staring at the cover for Dark Side of the Moon. You know what I mean?

[37:59] Laura Camien: You were the free time anymore.

[38:01] Bonnie Siegler: But to Dark Side of the Moon.

[38:05] Susan Blackwell: We are kind of obsessed with a topic, and that is how people process creative failure or perceive failure, like in your own mind. Do you have any big quote-unquote failures that you faced and how did you handle them?

[38:24] Bonnie Siegler: Oh, definitely, because I have a lot of ideas and I tried to make them come to life, and I can't always make them come to life. But that's the most fun part; it's just like inventing something out of whole cloth. Um, and yeah, it's happened too many times.

[38:40] Laura Camien: Well, you know what? I think a lot—for a lot of people, and we've talked to a number of highly successful creative people who when they encountered what they perceived as a failure, it shut them down for long periods of time.

[38:54] Bonnie Siegler: Like in some cases, like, uh I'm putting that in a drawer or I'm I'm moving across the country and I'm not gonna sing anymore, things like that.

[39:04] Laura Camien: You sound like you have a really healthy, like, well, that didn't work.

[39:07] Bonnie Siegler: Well, also because I I've I have my studio, so I'm always doing work with other people, and then I'm just trying to slip these other things in on the side, so so it's it's not like I got fired.

[39:20] Susan Blackwell: Right, yeah, right.

[39:22] Laura Camien: I see.

[39:23] Laura Camien: Gotcha. Can I jump into curious about? Is there uh in addition to the aforementioned of all the things that you've made, is there something that you've made that you're super proud of? And this could even just be like a a one-off logo or something that you're just really proud of.

[39:42] Bonnie Siegler: Yes, um, I'm sure there is. Um I mean, I remember when I worked at VH1, there was one the wistful look in your eyes right now. Just there was one thing that I did that made me so happy. I mean, I know it's been like forever, but there I don't even know what the logo is now, but then it was a triangle. I don't know if you can picture it. It was a triangle like this.

[40:07] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, and then an uh like a box for the H and a one.

[40:11] Bonnie Siegler: Yes. So, and I was responsible for the bug in the corner of the screen when there used to be bugs in the corners of screens. And so for Christmas, I turned the V upside down.

[40:23] Laura Camien: Oh, I see where you're going with this.

[40:27] Bonnie Siegler: And the V to to to illustrate the that it was a V and not a triangle, there was a little rectangle in it. I didn't design the logo. So when you turned it upside down, it was a Christmas tree. And it lived in the corner of the screen. And it made me so happy.

[40:43] Laura Camien: Those small delights.

[40:45] Bonnie Siegler: I love that. And that you remember that and you remember the feeling it gave you so many years.

[40:52] Bonnie Siegler: Yeah, because it was I mean, it was on TV. I mean, I'm a TV person. I love TV. I've always have. I wanted to work in TV. I wanted to be Mary Teller more. And so, like that was just a major with your development deal. Look at you. I'm so proud of you.

[41:08] Laura Camien: Is there a creative thing that you know you need to do before you're done? Like more things you're itching to do.

[41:16] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, it it knowing you, you're just like, oh, I'm doing it. I'm doing it all. But yeah, I just want to keep doing it and do more different things that I haven't done before.

[41:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that. Um, you have been in the creativity game for a while. Do you have any creative advice for us and for our listeners?

[41:36] Bonnie Siegler: I don't, I think this is the same thing you asked me the other night that I couldn't answer. Because I mean, I I can talk about specific problem solving, like how to approach something from a different angle or get a new perspective on something. But the whole thing for me is is that problem solving, that curiosity. What's the best way to represent this and make a connection with another human being? Which is what graphic design is about to me is making that emotional connection. Um, so uh, but in general, for all creativity, because you know, this is also I don't think about creativity. You're just personify it.

[42:17] Laura Camien: So I don't know if I can articulate it beyond, you know. One thing that's funny, my husband is an artist, and so for him, a blank piece of paper is like the happiest thing in the world. Like anything is possible, but I'm not an artist like that. I'm a problem.

[42:33] Bonnie Siegler: No, I almost said I'm not a fine artist, actually.

[42:38] Laura Camien: Ah, yes, because you're classy, the other F.

[42:40] Bonnie Siegler: I'm a different kind of artist. But so I need someone to say, okay, this is the company, this is what we want to communicate. I need someone to give me that problem to solve.

[42:49] Laura Camien: So it's too very different.

[42:50] Bonnie Siegler: That makes sense to me.

[42:51] Laura Camien: Yeah. Can I ask you this? I'm just thinking about what you said there and about your VH1 Christmas tree button. And I'm wondering, like, how do you know when you're like, I got it?

[43:04] Bonnie Siegler: I wish I had the answer to it. I just know. I just know.

[43:07] Laura Camien: You're just, do you feel it?

[43:09] Bonnie Siegler: Yes, definitely. And it's like, it's like, it's like, I don't know, it's like searching for gold or something. You're just like hammering away.

[43:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[43:17] Bonnie Siegler: And then and then it shines. And then you trust it. Witness this happen because I've been in a room with you where you're like, I know the it, this is it. And then sometimes waiting for everyone to make the realization and come and yes, come to that same conclusion. All the trains pull into the certainty within Bonnie is so I don't know, it's very um, it's comforting. So I'm like, Bonnie knows, so I feel great.

[43:45] Laura Camien: There is something about that, like whatever that eureka flash is that yeah, I would be covered by you.

[43:53] Bonnie Siegler: I don't fucking know. Bonnie graphic designer. Bonnie loves I'm gonna trust Bonnie's instinct. You have made so much, you get so much done, you work really hard.

[44:07] Bonnie Siegler: Yes.

[44:07] Laura Camien: What's it all for?

[44:09] Bonnie Siegler: Oh gosh, it's just the joy of doing it. This is just what makes me happy. I mean, I need to, you know, support my family and stuff like that. But it's what makes me happy. And and you know, my husband and I both are just constantly working. And I I have two boys, 14 and 19. And my 19-year-old, um, I mean, people have suggested this to me. It hasn't, it didn't really occur to me, but he started a business when he was 15, and now he's a very successful influencer.

[44:41] Laura Camien: Really?

[44:41] Bonnie Siegler: Really, and people have said it's probably because you guys both love what you do, and that was the example. And so he took on what he loved to do, and now he didn't go to college, he's just working, he has an apartment in Hudson Yards, and he's just living it, he's living it, he's living it like you live it.

[45:00] Laura Camien: Right.

[45:01] Bonnie Siegler: But in a complete, you know, it's all about the NBA. Yeah, like it's in a completely different place. But I but just you know, that that's what it's that's what work should be is doing what you love.

[45:11] Laura Camien: I think this might be the advice that you don't know yet that you have to give, which is I I feel like it's that critical first step, which is finding that thing that you found when you were at Disney, and you were like, I don't know why, right, but this is turning my crank. And then finding that thing, I don't know a lot of other young people who in their notebooks were redesigning the Kleenex logo, but finding that thing that is your Kleenex logo.

[45:38] Bonnie Siegler: Right. Yeah, it just authentically, you know, comes from that spirit of joy. And I love imagining that your son just grew up knowing that. Like that wasn't something that a college professor said to him, like, go try to find something you really like.

[45:53] Bonnie Siegler: Exactly. Just was integrated into his upbringing.

[45:58] Laura Camien: That's that's great. Bonnie, finally, what or who is sparking you right now?

[46:05] Bonnie Siegler: I just saw a Bridget Riley exhibit in London that blew my mind.

[46:09] Laura Camien: Can you tell us who Bridget Riley is?

[46:11] Bonnie Siegler: She's a painter, a fine artist. Um very fun fucking artist.

[46:15] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[46:17] Bonnie Siegler: Um do you guys actually not know who she is?

[46:19] Laura Camien: I don't.

[46:20] Bonnie Siegler: Oh, okay. Yeah. No, no, we really don't. Um she does things with shapes. It's a lot of shapes, it's completely abstract. But also what they had in the exhibit was what she did when she was young, like how it built up to where she got.

[46:35] Laura Camien: Cool.

[46:35] Bonnie Siegler: So it was really incredible to see how she got because you know, it's the kind of art that people could say, I could do that, but you didn't. But you didn't. And her process to get there was just um amazing and really inspiring. Um, so you should look her up.

[46:51] Laura Camien: Fantastic.

[46:51] Bonnie Siegler: I like the idea of seeing like uh a successful artist's early work.

[46:56] Laura Camien: Evolution, their whole evolution because the number of times people imagine stopping. And so if you could look at so many artists and realize had you stopped right here, we wouldn't have that's this so interesting camps. At the at the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh, you can see that and it's amazing. And also at the um at the Gertrude Whitney Um house in in um Venice, yeah. There's a room that has like 10 Jackson Pollocks, and it's one every five years.

[47:31] Laura Camien: Oh.

[47:32] Bonnie Siegler: And you see the evolution and how he got to where he got, which really changes the way you look at that last one.

[47:40] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[47:40] Bonnie Siegler: It's really beautiful.

[47:41] Laura Camien: It is fascinating. When we went to the Hilma off-klint exhibit at the Guggenheim, and they showed her early work, which is like very pastoral fields. It it like what she would have done when she was in art school and you know, floral studies and things like that. And then to see what, you know, when her like mind cracked open and the spirits were speaking to her.

[48:04] Laura Camien: Right.

[48:04] Bonnie Siegler: And she would never have gotten there. She wouldn't have had she not gone through this process, which is why you never want to discourage young people from keep to keep going. They have to keep going.

[48:13] Laura Camien: That's why we notice and we wonder.

[48:16] Bonnie Siegler: Exactly.

[48:17] Laura Camien: I notice.

[48:18] Bonnie Siegler: I wonder.

[48:19] Laura Camien: I notice.

[48:20] Bonnie Siegler: I wonder.

[48:20] Laura Camien: That's a keeper.

[48:21] Bonnie Siegler: That is. See, you're full of you got all sorts of great creative advice. You are so so good. My God. Thank you so much for joining us.

[48:32] Bonnie Siegler: Thank you for having me. This was really fun.

[48:34] Laura Camien: Before I let before we like sign you off and let you go, I'm just like, tell us what else. Because I feel like we have so much to learn from you, and I don't want to let you go until you just download it into the colour.

[48:44] Bonnie Siegler: We're meeting again after this without all the, you know, my own. Wait, I have one thing I have to say.

[48:48] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[48:49] Bonnie Siegler: I actually have a folder on my desktop called Inspiration. And whenever I see something like I literally have a spark file.

[48:56] Laura Camien: Yes.

[48:57] Bonnie Siegler: What's in there right now? Just off the top of your head.

[48:59] Bonnie Siegler: Tons of images, photographs, sometimes a phrase that somebody uses in an article. I'll screenshot it, put it in.

[49:06] Laura Camien: There you love it.

[49:08] Laura Camien: See, Bonnie's Eggler has a spark file.

[49:11] Bonnie Siegler: I love that. That's the name of my new YA novel.

[49:15] Bonnie Siegler: Bonnie Siegler has a spark file.

[49:17] Laura Camien: It's ridiculous.

[49:19] Bonnie Siegler: So that's it. We hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, if you've taken a little spark and you fann it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We'll even take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe, rate, five-star review it. If you like this podcast, share it with people you love. If you didn't like it, Bonnie, what do you say to critics?

[49:52] Bonnie Siegler: What do you say to people who don't love your work?

[49:59] Bonnie Siegler: I mean, there was one there was one time I did this identity for the Brooklyn Public Library. And the logo we made it B K-L-Y-N. And peep in the newspapers in Brooklyn, they said that we spelled Brooklyn wrong.

[50:12] Laura Camien: To which you said they're writing about the library.

[50:18] Bonnie Siegler: What is better than that? Like when was the last time you wrote an article about a graphic design, but B, the library.

[50:26] Laura Camien: So I guess what we're saying is if you didn't like it, you've already listened this far.

[50:30] Bonnie Siegler: Exactly.

[50:31] Laura Camien: Writing about the library. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You gotta mine it. You gotta refine it. You gotta get all riled up and full-on graphic design it. You gotta take it and make it.

[50:55] Bonnie Siegler: Bye.

[51:05] Bonnie Siegler: When I poke into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files. Could be something that I wanna fake or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark files. I jump into my spark files. Let's open up the spark fire.