This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Laura Camien: The following conversation with Donna Lieberman was recorded before Q Time began and before recent events unfolded.

[0:06] Susan Blackwell: Please stay tuned for the postscript where we catch up with Donna to reflect on current events.

[0:12] Laura Camien: And as always, the SparkPro podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:17] Susan Blackwell: Please use your discretion.

[0:23] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump in my spark file.

[0:31] Laura Camien: Spark five to be something that I want to make or how I wanna be.

[0:37] Susan Blackwell: I pump in my spark five.

[0:41] Laura Camien: I jump into my spot.

[0:45] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:50] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Spark File, your nonstop rallying cry for creative inspiration.

[0:55] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:57] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, you are so welcome, but you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:03] Laura Camien: Where do I get one?

[1:04] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: These are such good questions, and we have got such good answers.

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:14] Laura Camien: And if you're like us and making stuff all the time, you know that sometimes the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:22] Susan Blackwell: We're here to refill it.

[1:24] Laura Camien: Yes, we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:36] Susan Blackwell: Or a concert that celebrates our freedoms and shines a light on why they need defending.

[1:43] Laura Camien: Or a lawsuit that strikes down the Defense Against Marriage Act in the Edie Windsor case.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: Or a project to strengthen and protect your reproductive rights.

[1:53] Laura Camien: Or a strategy that combines litigation, public education, advocacy, and lobbying to promote and protect civil rights and civil liberties.

[2:01] Susan Blackwell: On today's makersode, we're gonna talk with someone who truly sparks us.

[2:05] Susan Blackwell: And that special someone is the first call I'm going to make if I ever get arrested.

[2:10] Susan Blackwell: Donna Lieberman.

[2:15] Donna Lieberman: Oh, you got it.

[2:17] Donna Lieberman: I'm so happy to be sparky with you.

[2:22] Susan Blackwell: We are overjoyed to be in your presence today.

[2:25] Laura Camien: Very, very excited.

[2:26] Donna Lieberman: Thank you.

[2:27] Donna Lieberman: Me too.

[2:27] Donna Lieberman: Thank you for being here.

[2:29] Laura Camien: So, first of all, price of admission, real quick, you have to tell us a risk that you have taken recently.

[2:36] Laura Camien: It could be something that scared you a little, made you nervous, not perfect, but progress.

[2:42] Donna Lieberman: I have choices here.

[2:43] Donna Lieberman: Oh, give it to us.

[2:45] Donna Lieberman: Play them out.

[2:46] Donna Lieberman: Yeah.

[2:47] Donna Lieberman: So one risk that we took in our annual Broadway Stands Up for Freedom concert this year was um because our theme was my body, my business, yeah, prompted by the abortion ban crusade that's going on in the country and all the uh transphobia um that we're dealing with was we had an all-woman cast for the first time.

[2:47] Laura Camien: That's right.

[2:47] Laura Camien: Broadway stands up for freedom.

[3:25] Donna Lieberman: I gotta say, we kind of backed into it.

[3:27] Donna Lieberman: Um, and then I realized, oh, we have an all-women cast.

[3:31] Donna Lieberman: This is cool.

[3:32] Donna Lieberman: Is it okay?

[3:35] Laura Camien: Were you like, ooh, this feels a little risky?

[3:38] Donna Lieberman: Oh, totally.

[3:39] Donna Lieberman: I was totally, I mean, because we backed into it, yeah.

[3:43] Donna Lieberman: Um, um, I worried that we hadn't sort of prepped anybody for that.

[3:48] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[3:49] Donna Lieberman: Um, I worried that there were guys who could have performed who like we didn't say yes to.

[3:55] Donna Lieberman: And I realized, oh man, you know, particularly like a lot of our gay pals are like, you know, who are staunch supporters of the concert and weren't part of it this year.

[4:06] Donna Lieberman: Um, so, but it was very cool to have an all-woman cast for this particular theme.

[4:16] Laura Camien: Was there a point at which you just you owned it?

[4:18] Laura Camien: Like, yeah, that was our all-female cast, and we're proud of it.

[4:22] Laura Camien: And even though we backed into it, now it's like one of those decisions that thankfully happened for us in a way.

[4:29] Donna Lieberman: Oh, absolutely.

[4:31] Donna Lieberman: I mean, you know, after there was a little hesitation, and then like, yeah, shit, yeah.

[4:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:37] Donna Lieberman: This is like uh, I mean, my body, my business.

[4:39] Donna Lieberman: This makes so much sense.

[4:41] Laura Camien: Yeah, I love it.

[4:42] Laura Camien: That's great.

[4:42] Susan Blackwell: I think you've officially been admitted into the I would say so.

[4:46] Donna Lieberman: Yeah.

[4:46] Susan Blackwell: Welcome.

[4:46] Donna Lieberman: Yeah.

[4:47] Susan Blackwell: So full disclosure, counselor, literally, I had the pleasure of working with Donna for years on the annual Broadway Stands Up for Freedom concert.

[4:55] Susan Blackwell: But for people that don't know you, this is a three-parter.

[4:59] Susan Blackwell: Here's the first one.

[5:00] Susan Blackwell: Donna Lieberman, what is your job title?

[5:03] Donna Lieberman: I am the director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, which is the ACLU of New York.

[5:10] Susan Blackwell: And for people who don't know, what is the ACLU of New York, aka the NYCLU, what is that?

[5:16] Donna Lieberman: Well, we are a um membership organization that is affiliated with the ACLU, and our mission in life is to protect the fundamental freedoms that are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and the equal equality amendments to the Constitution, the way we interpret them.

[5:40] Donna Lieberman: And you know, we use lawsuits, and historically that's what we've been known for.

[5:49] Donna Lieberman: But we also use public education advocacy and lobbying and organizing to get the job done.

[5:57] Donna Lieberman: So it's a mixed media operation to promote social justice.

[6:04] Susan Blackwell: So you are either the first line of defense or the last line of defense.

[6:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm not sure how the analogy goes, but you are the defense between us and our inalienable rights being taken away.

[6:16] Donna Lieberman: Absolutely.

[6:17] Donna Lieberman: So thank you, first of all, for the work that you do.

[6:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, no kidding.

[6:21] Donna Lieberman: Thank you for saying that.

[6:23] Donna Lieberman: Thank you.

[6:23] Donna Lieberman: And you work seemingly tirelessly, but I can't say, you know, you are a human being.

[6:30] Donna Lieberman: So I don't know how you do all that.

[6:33] Laura Camien: But let me ask you this as executive director of the ACLU of New York, what is what is your job like?

[6:40] Donna Lieberman: What what do you specifically do?

[6:43] Donna Lieberman: You know, um, I've been the director here for about 20 years, and I was on staff before that.

[6:49] Susan Blackwell: I feel like your 20th anniversary is coming right up for being the executive director.

[6:54] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, next year.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: Are we having a big party?

[6:56] Donna Lieberman: I don't know.

[6:57] Donna Lieberman: You might be having a party, you know.

[6:59] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I mean like we should vet you.

[7:02] Susan Blackwell: I feel like we should do it.

[7:05] Donna Lieberman: Yeah.

[7:05] Donna Lieberman: Well, anyway, so so so uh what's the question?

[7:09] Laura Camien: What are you what's your day like?

[7:11] Laura Camien: What do you do?

[7:12] Donna Lieberman: So so I guess one could say that my day is a little bit like Sesame Street, you know.

[7:18] Donna Lieberman: I get like three minute chunks of time to focus on any particular issue.

[7:24] Donna Lieberman: I'm dealing with this is a very specific uh episode of Sesame Street, though.

[7:31] Donna Lieberman: Well, like the kids' show, we try to defend values, you know.

[7:35] Donna Lieberman: But but you know, I mean, anything from you know, running the office to uh figuring out what our position's gonna be on bail, on speedy trial, how we're gonna beat back the efforts to uh roll back the reforms that we just won like 10 minutes ago.

[7:52] Laura Camien: Yes.

[7:53] Donna Lieberman: Um, I mean, it's it there is an unending um series of challenges.

[7:58] Donna Lieberman: And anytime we win an issue, like we have to get right back up and like defend the victory.

[8:08] Laura Camien: It happens almost every time.

[8:10] Donna Lieberman: Bail is a classic example, but we passed the reproductive health act yes last, you know, at the beginning, just about a year ago, right?

[8:19] Donna Lieberman: And literally, you know, as soon as it was passed, right?

[8:23] Donna Lieberman: We started getting pushback, you know, and the people who did the right thing in the legislature worried that like you know, people are calling them and saying, Oh, you're killing babies now because you codified Roe v. Wade.

[8:34] Laura Camien: And so so you can't just let a victory hang out there.

[8:39] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, there's so much work to do to not only prevent prevent politicians who are not known for their coverage, whatever, preventing them from reversing course, but also translating the victory into a reality on the ground.

[8:58] Donna Lieberman: And and that's a huge challenge.

[9:00] Donna Lieberman: Because you know, when you win, you know, um uh the right to choose, you know, it's meaningless, it's empty if there aren't providers out there that's to make services available to women.

[9:14] Donna Lieberman: And so you wouldn't believe how many potholes there are along the way to making any given right a reality.

[9:24] Laura Camien: How do you keep that fire in your belly, if you will?

[9:29] Laura Camien: How do you keep that alive, knowing that it's sounds like an exhaustive whacking?

[9:35] Donna Lieberman: You know, win and then defend and then win and defend cycle.

[9:39] Donna Lieberman: Well, there's a couple of types of answers to that.

[9:43] Donna Lieberman: You know, um, first of all, you know, I have to say, for me personally, if I weren't doing this work, I'd be nuts.

[9:51] Donna Lieberman: You know, because poor yourself, because you know, uh I would I would feel so at sea in in a world that was, you know, just so um uh problematic.

[10:04] Donna Lieberman: Um but you know, I think for many years, I we as an organization um were very effective as as a voice for civil liberties and human rights, um, but not so effective at getting stuff done.

[10:26] Donna Lieberman: And of late um for a number of reasons, we've become incredibly effective in getting shit done.

[10:38] Donna Lieberman: You know, um uh we had a we we put out a legislative agenda a year ago for the first hundred days of the new legislature.

[10:47] Donna Lieberman: We didn't do that every year, you know, and there wasn't a reason to because the legislature was a piece of crap.

[10:52] Donna Lieberman: You know, it had nothing, you know, that was so dysfunctional.

[10:56] Donna Lieberman: It been high the Senate was hijacked by the Republicans.

[10:58] Donna Lieberman: But when the Democrats took over, we put out an agenda.

[11:01] Donna Lieberman: You know, we had about 18 things, and we kept thinking, should we put this on?

[11:05] Donna Lieberman: We're not gonna be at that, maybe, you know.

[11:07] Donna Lieberman: Anyway, we put out 18 things, you know, like, and and three quarters of them got done, you know, in the legislative session.

[11:16] Donna Lieberman: You know, in previous years, we could we would take victory lap, you know, really big victory lap if we won one big issue, yeah, you know, or one small issue.

[11:26] Donna Lieberman: But really what what the legislature did, and it's not just because of us, um, we played a significant role in um uh providing support on key issues, but also providing our legal expertise and know-how to help get things over the line.

[11:45] Laura Camien: Can you tell us a little bit about your origin story?

[11:47] Laura Camien: Like how did you end up doing this work?

[11:52] Laura Camien: The Donna Lieberman creation story.

[11:54] Donna Lieberman: Yes, please.

[11:58] Donna Lieberman: So, you know, when I was in college, you know, the first thing I did at registration as a freshman was sign up at the SDS table.

[12:07] Donna Lieberman: SDS was not weather SDS, it was like, you know, power to the people SDS or what, you know, um, it was a much more democracy oriented and anti-war and civil rights group.

[12:20] Donna Lieberman: And I kind of majored in that in activism in college.

[12:26] Donna Lieberman: Um, and honestly, the way I felt about the ACLU, if I knew about them, I did know about them, but it was like, ugh, they're so boring, mainstream.

[12:38] Donna Lieberman: You know, I care about what being able to speak my piece, the people who I like being able to speak their piece.

[12:47] Donna Lieberman: And I really didn't give two shits about, you know, whether the people I disagreed with what should have, would have, could have the right to speak.

[12:59] Laura Camien: Ah, yes.

[13:00] Donna Lieberman: And so I was one of those people who would stand outside of up with people when they came, you know, trying to shout them down.

[13:07] Donna Lieberman: But over time, you know, I came to appreciate that, you know, and I would wonder like who would get excited about like defending the right to say something.

[13:18] Donna Lieberman: I'll get excited about saying the right thing.

[13:21] Laura Camien: Right.

[13:21] Donna Lieberman: You know, right.

[13:22] Donna Lieberman: So um, but over time I came to appreciate how important it is to actually defend neutral principles.

[13:31] Donna Lieberman: I should say that, you know, I grew up in a family that was persecuted during the McCarthy era.

[13:39] Donna Lieberman: My dad lost his job, had to sort of give up on his dreams of a you know career as a lawyer.

[13:45] Donna Lieberman: He was in law school, had to drop out, you know, and and and and move us out of you know, place that we were really happy and loved, you know, into New Jersey.

[13:55] Laura Camien: Uh sorry, Jersey.

[13:58] Donna Lieberman: Donald Lieberman does not pull punches.

[14:01] Donna Lieberman: And and there's a nice little side story.

[14:04] Donna Lieberman: Apparently, he went to work as the personnel director at Maiden Form.

[14:08] Donna Lieberman: And and, you know, of course, that was fun when in college.

[14:12] Donna Lieberman: We didn't wear bras, you know, he would he dreamt he was what in the maiden form.

[14:16] Donna Lieberman: Anyway, but but um uh the day the day before he started his new job at Maidenform, it turns out the FBI visited the company and told the people who ran it that they should not hire, they should, you know, uh get rid of this communist who was supposed to start work the next day.

[14:35] Donna Lieberman: Oh my god. And of course what they didn't know is that the people who founded Maidenform were these old Jewish socialists and immigrants, right? And they just, you know, I mean, told them to go fuck themselves and whatever, you know. So I would that's kind of a cute story. Anyway, so so I mean, I've been an activist all my life, and and you know, when when uh Norman Siegel, my predecessor, you know, asked me to come here as as his deputy, you know, 1989, you know, um, I would gave up a teaching gig at City College that I kind of loved. Um, and um um I said, you're gonna regret this. You know, I had summers off. I could take, you know, I could go in two days, three days, you know. I love teaching, I love my students, you know, and um I said, and I'm only gonna work until 5:30, I gotta pick my kids up.

And so of course I could count on the fingers of one hand, you know, the number of days that I got to pick my kids up on time. Yeah. Um, but I really haven't looked back for a minute. I was so fascinated by it's it's something that I didn't I wasn't aware of until I started um doing more work with you all that that what did you just call them? Neutral principles that you I was surprised and maybe you could share an example with us of the type of case that you would take on defending someone's right to free speech, for instance, where it was different than the kind of free speech that I would enjoy hearing in the world. It you know, they held differing opinions, but what you were fighting for was that neutral principle. Right.

[16:24] Donna Lieberman: You know, one of the most important First Amendment cases, um Brandenburg versus Ohio, um was involves the the establish the principle um that you can't be arrested for um for inciting to riot um unless there is a call for imminent lawless action at a time in a context where it's likely to happen. And and so that came out of like some right-wing, you know, clan like rally, right? Um but that's the principle that was used in the Chicago 8 case where people were charged with inciting to riot, right? And like, you know, they and they weren't right, the police were rioting, but the no, you know, you can't, you know, just because I I get up on a on a a podium and say, you know, we need a revolution, oh groovy, you know.

Um, but if it's not, you know, it's not if it's not a context where I we've got guns and and and you know, violent things, you know, making violent things happening, then well, you know, it's not inciting to riot. And it's actually protected speech. You know, so um uh, you know, we at the NYCLU umce uh maybe more than once, but I I can remember once, you know, represented at the Republican National Convention in 2004, where we were representing all these groups that were demonstrating against the Republicans, you know, um uh uh we also represented some right to life group that wanted to demonstrate at the convention. Because the neutral principle that you're defending is that right to free speech and and peaceful protest and all of that, right?

[18:29] Laura Camien: It is fascinating to think about like the idea that we can be on board with that principle and defend it no matter which side is arguing and what they're arguing for, is such a lost, it's kind of a lost art that we're able to see both sides of it.

[18:48] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, and I'll I can tell you, you know, one area where it's like really a conundrum. I probably shouldn't even raise it because it really, you know, sort of can make people mad, but yeah.

[18:59] Laura Camien: That's what this broadcast is all about.

[19:02] Donna Lieberman: But but you know, in in in the context of, for example, you know, sexual harassment, sexual assault, you know, on campus, for example, yeah, you know, um, some people think that, you know, um uh we believe her, you know, means that whenever a woman makes an accusation against a man, um, you have to believe the woman. Right. Well, you know, we can't we can't agree with that, you know. Um it's not okay to persecute people. You know, if you're gonna accuse somebody, then you have to give them their day in court, and you have to do it by a process that is laid out in advance, that is the same for everybody, and that creates the the greatest likelihood for a just result. So, you know, that that's not you can see how being somebody who is standing in defense of neutral principles could make you a very unpopular person, Donna Lieberman.

[20:11] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah, like why can't you just side with me?

[20:14] Donna Lieberman: Yeah.

[20:15] Laura Camien: I'm on the right side.

[20:16] Donna Lieberman: Yeah. Can you give us, can you just talk about one of like one of the accomplishments that you've had that stands out to you that you're like particularly proud of?

[20:28] Donna Lieberman: I do believe it that like it's hard to pick. Um I do. I do believe it. So so you know, and I have to say that there have been I how lucky am I to have so many moments in my professional life where I feel that the work that we have done has like changed history, changed people's lives for the better. Incredible. And and so, I mean, really, you mentioned the Edie Windsor case. You know, we were co-counsel on that.

[21:00] Laura Camien: I love Edie Windsor. For people that don't know, will you say a little bit about that?

[21:06] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, Edie Windsor challenged um the Defense of Marriage Act, you know, and we got it struck down in the Supreme Court. And and like, you know, wow, you know. And um, but indulge me, because there's so there are a couple of others that that you know come to mind as well. You know, this isn't something that happened in a moment, but happened over the course of time.

[21:36] Laura Camien: Yes.

[21:37] Donna Lieberman: You know, I feel proud and very responsible for for igniting leading um and and participating in the movement to end stop and frisk abuse in New York City. You know, we're the ones who who fought for the data, we're the ones who just uh uh exposed the racial disparities, uh we're the ones who exposed the fact that stop and frisk wasn't about guilty people, it was about innocent people, and it almost never ended with the recovery of a of a uh firearm, which is what it was supposed to be all about. Um and and there's no one thing, you know, there's no one time where we could take a victory lap, but I gotta tell you, I have a picture up in my office of you know the stop and frisk march down Fifth Avenue, um, I think it was 2012, you know, where it was one of the most diverse and beautiful, huge marches, you know, um, of people from all walks of life in New York City against Stop and Frisk.

And you know, Mayor de Blasio, you know, like ran on a campaign to end stop and frisk, you know, and and whatever we may have to say about how he actually ended up, you know, um stop and frisk was at uh 700,000 in 2012 and is now like 25,000 uh today.

[23:14] Laura Camien: And you helped make that happen.

[23:15] Donna Lieberman: When I hear that, I'm just like, that to me is if you're listening to this and you're like, all of this is well and good, Donna Lieberman. Why are you on the SparkFile podcast, a creativity podcast? This is enormously creative to us that you, you know, you and your people here conceived of this, decided that you were going to set your sights on this, and then figured out how to how to address this, you know, in a really you uh it seems like you have to do a lot of creative problem solving because you have to figure out how we're going to attack this problem, like what even selecting what problem you're going to address.

[23:58] Donna Lieberman: Oh, totally. And then what's the way in? And how did how did you within that to use that as an example? How did you decide that that was the thing that you wanted to focus on?

[24:12] Donna Lieberman: Well, you know, I mean 2020 hindsight, you know. I mean, we we didn't know what we were gonna find or actually where we were gonna go along this campaign or what we could accomplish. Um, but but you know, inch by inch, you know, we kept building on this progress. And you know, um using the tool of the fight for transparency was huge. Using the tool of reporting, you know, publishing a report with data is huge.

[24:49] Donna Lieberman: Um but I gotta tell you, um of the most powerful and poignant moments in my professional life was a meeting we had in about 2007, 2008 with a um group of elected officials, all black from Brooklyn, um convened by um uh Yvette Clark, uh the Congresswoman. And it was the first time that we were presenting the data on Stop and Frisk.

[25:23] Laura Camien: Wow.

[25:24] Donna Lieberman: And so we told them how many there were, the racial disparities, and it turns out the racial disparities are basically the same for all sorts of different uh bad things that the police do, you know, um arrests for for um various offenses, school arrests, anyway. Um, and and I went there and it presented this data, and every single black elected official around the table had a story.

[25:56] Laura Camien: Whoa.

[25:56] Donna Lieberman: Had a story about it happened to the nephew, themselves, their their cousin, their uncle, their husband, and and it was, you know, I walked out of there like just totally blown away because nobody knew how to deal with it. Nobody yet, including me, you know, understood that the narrative that stop and frisk was about public safety, was about going after criminals. The police department can say we go where the crime is, you know, we go after criminals, you know, we go to the hot spots, right? You know, but nobody had yet internalized that when you stop and frisk, you know, people and 90% of them walk away without so much as a summons. This ain't about crime.

[26:51] Laura Camien: That's right.

[26:51] Donna Lieberman: This is about an occupying army. And it took a while for that reality to kind of sink in and people had no people were just flabbergasted, didn't know what to do. We didn't know what the next steps were, you know, and we just had to kind of keep writing yes you were taking the information as it comes and writing the story.

[27:13] Laura Camien: Absolutely we were writing the script as we you know and and editing all the way along it was a Tony Kushner production.

[27:21] Donna Lieberman: That is epic. Speaking of productions, I know that you and Susan have worked together quite a bit on Broadway Stands Up for Freedom. Can you share with the rest of us like what that is and how it came to be sure I want to know more.

[27:38] Donna Lieberman: Well Susan knows how it came to be that so she knew she expected me to light up. So Broadway Stands Up for freedom is an annual concert that the NYCLU puts on thanks to the the the generosity and talent of like a whole bunch of wonderful brilliant beautiful Bravo stars who come and do something for the MICLU, they just you know perform their guts out.

[28:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:03] Donna Lieberman: And it it it you know has has evolved over the years, but it started um uh as my daughter Liana's um present to the NYCLU when she graduated was graduating from high school. And the first one was in the back room with Danny's skylight cafe on 40 something street, right? And there were like there were at least like 13 people hanging from the rafters, you know, her soccer buddies and whatever, you know, uh and and um you know it's you know the rest is history. Um it's and and it's really you know, um it's such a feel-good, wonderful event, you know, it's an opportunity to to get together, to feel good, to hear great music, to showcase talent, to showcase new music, I mean, and tell a little bit about our work.

[29:02] Susan Blackwell: And um, I just love it.

[29:04] Laura Camien: I love it too.

[29:05] Susan Blackwell: And one of the things that is, you know, when I participated in this, it's so meaningful. Is number one, it gives all of us, you know, Broadway Yahoos a chance to, if you do have any sort of uh activism spirit in your heart, it gives you a chance to funnel it into something and feel like you are using your special skills and talents to you know to do something. But the other thing that I love about it is I know how hard you all work defending our freedoms and our civil liberties. And I thought, well, at least for one night, even though I know your staff works very hard, even to put it up, at least for one night you get to sit your asses down and get a little like refreshment, like to get a little, a little gratitude and a little bit of hopefully some inspiration to stand back up and keep going.

[30:04] Donna Lieberman: Yeah no it's really invigorating um and inspiring you know um this year I was just it just felt like the perfect moment that we honored Celia Keenan-Bolger you know I mean Celia is the gem of all gems you know every which way and and you know it it with this moment in her career with Mockingbird and Celia is an activist yes you know like nobody like nobody else and you know deeply committed to our work and to social justice stuff it felt so right you know to honor her and that was kind of amazing.

[30:49] Susan Blackwell: And it that speech she gave was uh it's such if go online in fact we'll put the link up go watch the speech she gave is so good um are there any other favorite moments and I mean you've seen so many of these at this point.

[31:04] Donna Lieberman: How many of these have there been seventeen.

[31:04] Susan Blackwell: Seventeen wow um does your daughter still come to all of them she performs beautifully are there any special um standout memories that you have you know of course that that um no matter how fabulous anybody or everybody is it's always a special moment for me to watch Liana on stage.

[31:33] Donna Lieberman: Yes.

[31:35] Donna Lieberman: That's you know, it's always fabulous for me. I'm still a stage mom. Um, you know I I I remember um uh right before the 2016 election, and we invited people to write their own um protest songs songs.

[31:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and I remember um Brandon Ranowitz um doing uh I can't even remember it was fantastic.

[32:01] Donna Lieberman: That was that was an amazing night of theater. Shayna Taub wrote um Huddled Masses also amazing, and that year David Cale performed a song that Stu wrote that I became obsessed with, and the theme of it is essentially the clown has the nuclear codes, and it's one of the most powerful um it was like seeing David Bowie perform.

[32:25] Susan Blackwell: It was unbelievable. I can't believe that that you know I was thinking about like what are my favorite moments from B Stuff and you just like name three of them.

[32:37] Donna Lieberman: All three, all three.

[32:39] Susan Blackwell: That was one spectacular night. We're throwing them out. There was a there's a uh uh all female dance troupe called the Lady Dragons from Brooklyn Tech, and they do like that hard stomping, yeah.

[32:52] Donna Lieberman: And that they're amazing. I'm telling you, this Broadway Stands Up for Freedom when it comes around, get yourself a ticket.

[33:00] Susan Blackwell: I was gonna say, is this something we can all buy tickets to?

[33:03] Donna Lieberman: Yes.

[33:04] Donna Lieberman: Yes, not only that, but we know the date for 2020.

[33:08] Susan Blackwell: Oh scoop.

[33:09] Donna Lieberman: Yeah.

[33:10] Susan Blackwell: What is it?

[33:10] Donna Lieberman: Scoop. October 26th, 2020.

[33:14] Susan Blackwell: And that's like just a week before the most important election in our lives.

[33:18] Donna Lieberman: And the theme of the concert is gonna be voting.

[33:22] Susan Blackwell: You've got to vote.

[33:23] Donna Lieberman: You gotta vote.

[33:24] Susan Blackwell: What a spot.

[33:25] Donna Lieberman: Wow. That energy in the room is gonna be crazy.

[33:31] Susan Blackwell: Because and that's a great example of you know, whether you're a performer or a lawyer or whatever you do, if you're passionate about these issues and you need something to pour that energy into something like this is such a a gift.

[33:47] Donna Lieberman: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Or just buy a ticket, come support it.

[33:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And so we're always seeking to spark ourselves, obviously, but also our listeners. So if there's activist artists listening to the podcast right now, based on your experience, are there ways that they can get involved that they can use their special skills to help on this front?

[34:12] Donna Lieberman: Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that anybody can do really, really easily, you know, aside from you know, joining our email list and following us on this and that. Um, uh, but you know, artists who have celebrity, you know, who have a lot of followers, you know, when they push out messages from the ACLU and the NYCLU and others, you know, about the issues of the day, it's really important, it's really helpful. Um, and it helps to build the movement. You know, the biggest challenge for us, I think, is building a big broad movement that doesn't have to be homogeneous and agree on everything and knows how to how to respect each other, cherish differences, as well as you know, build on common ground.

[35:15] Susan Blackwell: I'm sorry, I'm going off on a tangent.

[35:17] Donna Lieberman: No, this is this is amazing. Because I it sounds like you're talking about um all of us have the ability to use our voice to amplify these messages. Um we're also living in a time when it feels scary to take a stand on things. Um and I just think that's like one of just one of many things that you must be contending with. Um the fact that even on some of these basic rights, if someone does lend their voice to it, we have uh, you know, uh we just have the online version of uh a pylon, you know, of people basically saying the opposite.

[35:57] Susan Blackwell: So I I know that some people have a hesitancy to use their voice for that because of that fear.

[36:05] Donna Lieberman: And and I think that so, you know, using your voice and social media is such, you know, I mean, it's it's a pain in the ass.

[36:12] Donna Lieberman: It is like so dangerous. You said it but but it's also you know, got so much potential and we can't ignore it.

[36:20] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[36:21] Donna Lieberman: So people have the capability of really, you know, I mean, use that gift, you know, use your brilliance, you know, and and and get it out there. Um, you know, of course, for our concert, you know, we're always, you know, um eager to have you know people, you know, join us for that, both as you know, and advertising and stuff, but but but also you know, um uh uh for other organizations, you know.

[36:52] Donna Lieberman: I mean, we're not the only game in town. Planned Parenthood, yeah, we have to protect the hell out of Planned Parenthood, you know, we have to protect the hell out of the New York Immigration Coalition, you know, we have to protect, make the road. We have to really, you know, be together, um, and and and use our activism. You know, I think that that um, and of course, you know, my dream, of course, is like, you know, to have the the ACLU, you know, singer songwriter project, you know, or singer songwriter festival, you know.

[37:26] Susan Blackwell: Um, you know, that's an incredible idea.

[37:29] Donna Lieberman: You know, I I yeah, I feel so so passionate about the importance of art in a social movement. You can't have a movie that that doesn't speak to the soul. And so it's about art, it's about music, it's about poetry, and and um so I would love to, you know, yeah, anyway.

[37:55] Susan Blackwell: Anybody you just said you can't have a movement without something that speaks to your soul.

[38:01] Donna Lieberman: And that's the role that artists can play in it.

[38:04] Susan Blackwell: I I just think that's an incredible takeaway.

[38:07] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, I mean, the more we do this and the more I live life, that there's those that old saw that we've just heard all our lives about it's all about the story, it's all about storytelling.

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: And what I remember first hearing that probably in college being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[38:25] Donna Lieberman: And as I age, I'm like, it really is.

[38:27] Susan Blackwell: So something that maybe people can't even, they they can't wrap their minds around the complexity of the issue, or it seems um dry, or it seems at a remove from them.

[38:42] Donna Lieberman: That storytelling, whether it's through graphic design, Bonnie Siegler, whether it's through like uh, you know, you were saying poetry, protest songs.

[38:51] Donna Lieberman: Um, there's so many ways that it can live, but I think you're right, it's not the only conduit, but art and creativity is a powerful conduit, a visceral conduit.

[39:04] Donna Lieberman: Absolutely. And historically, artists have been on the cutting edge of civil liberties. You know, I mean, we represented Joe Pack back in the day.

[39:14] Susan Blackwell: Is that right?

[39:15] Donna Lieberman: Absolutely. You know, people, you know, artists who who speak their mind. Um, you know, we we we uh challenge the censorship of of um children's hours.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: Children's hour.

[39:26] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, yeah.

[39:27] Susan Blackwell: And what what is so Joe Papp was uh famously the founder of the public theater in New York?

[39:31] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, and he was accused of being a communist, you know, and so so you know, I mean believable. Um the the and artists are you know are often you know testing the limits of free speech.

[39:45] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, you know, I mean saying fuck on the air, you know, is like I know, and we get to stand on their fucking shoulders. It's it's amazing.

[39:54] Donna Lieberman: I said fuck in a press conference today.

[39:59] Susan Blackwell: How'd that go over?

[40:01] Donna Lieberman: The crowd loved it.

[40:02] Susan Blackwell: You were walking along talking the time.

[40:05] Donna Lieberman: This is what this is why I thought it would be so interesting to talk to you because you're I've I believe that your work is deeply creative, and I'm not just referring to Broadway Stands Up for Freedom concert. Um, I feel like the what we were just saying, certainly, are there other ways that you feel like creativity plays a role in your day-to-day work?

[40:25] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, so so this may not be what you're looking for, but you know, another um project that we undertook around policing and and stop and frisk, you know, was the Museum of Broken Windows.

[40:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, my mind is blown, sorry, say more.

[40:44] Donna Lieberman: So we spent about two years trying to figure out how to come, you know, how we could get the message about the harms of broken windows policing. And of course, Stop and Frisk is, you know, a big meaning pillar of that.

[41:00] Donna Lieberman: Yeah. And we worked with um the Sosei Agency and put together a pop-up museum, you know, which documented broken windows policing, you know, with a piece on Abner Lawima, where there's the toe tag um piece that has a a bunch of toe tags, you know, the tags that they put on the corpses.

[41:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[41:27] Donna Lieberman: Um that's powerful. You know, and there were like um uh thousands of them hanging from the ceiling, represent one for each person who was murdered by the cops during one given year.

[41:40] Donna Lieberman: Okay, you know, there's no there's no um record of how many people get killed by the police. And so literally somebody went around to research that, and this was the product. I mean, there was so much. We have portraits of of moms and and other family members of people who were killed by the police, and this is like an interesting story because, you know, um Gwen Carr, um uh uh Sean Bell's mom, Valerie, um uh Irma Baez, and and you know, you can see how Ramarley Graham's mom, Connie Malcolm, you can see, you know, these are people who are in an affinity group that nobody wants to be part of.

[42:28] Donna Lieberman: Um and the portraits of them, which were done kind of after they came together and solidified as a group, show both sadness and determination.

[42:42] Donna Lieberman: And it was it's just so powerful, because I know like personally, so many of the people whose portraits were in the exhibit, and I could watch the the um the body language, the way you know, if for some of them, the way they carried themselves changing over time as they became a cohesive unit and fought back for structural changes that would either vindicate their kids or or or reduce the likelihood that others would get um killed by the police and nobody be held accountable. It was just like so powerful.

[43:24] Donna Lieberman: Yes. So we, you know, we do put our money where our mouth is. I love you. I think you are, I think, and I've just over the years on many a conference call and many a meeting, I see how you're always striving to, and it may be because your daughter is an artist, it may be, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the origin is there, but I always see you, you always make that connection about how can we get children involved? How can we get children's writing involved, you know, having a contest, a poetry contest, so that those students who write those beautiful pieces, they sometimes come and read them at the conversation. I mean, it is you're I feel like you are always, in addition to your very high powered job and very demanding job, you always have there's always this sort of creative wheel turning with you.

[44:20] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. It's true. I don't make the news, I just report it. And the way you describe the artist's role in the bigger picture is really inspiring.

[44:34] Donna Lieberman: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Good to be. Thank you. So you've been the executive director of the NYCLU for almost 20 years. For all of our sakes, I hope it's 20 years more. I don't know how you feel about it. I don't know how my kids feel about that.

[44:51] Susan Blackwell: Is there a thing that you know you need to do before you're done?

[44:58] Donna Lieberman: Well, you know, we have a little, you know, line here that, you know, um the work of defending civil liberties is never done. You have to fight again and again and again. And um, uh so you know, and adding to that, and I think that's true, you know. I mean, look, you know, we thought that, you know, my generation thought that we, you know, won all sorts of civil rights victories and peace in our lives and all that could you know kick back. I mean a little bit. Yeah, look look look look at us now. Look at the world that we're handing down to the next generation. It's disgusting. Um, but but also I know I mean yeah there's lots that I want to do um and and you know perhaps first and foremost you know the notion of sort of building the basis for a huge strong uh broad movement you know that can is committed to basic human rights values would be fabulous you know I think you never get that done it's something you know the the the getting to that in in any moment in time would be wonderful um but it's not something you can just sit back and you know enjoy right yeah um but but um you know and I keep thinking you know I'm I'm passionate about education I think it's at the core of any democratic society um and you know the the fact that we have you know one of the most segregated school systems in the nation uh here in New York um is an embarrassment it's uh what my grandmother would call a shonda and um um uh it's something that we have we have yet to figure out how to grapple with um but I'm also like you know um I know that whatever accomplishments I can be proud of um are accomplishments that are made possible by not just a huge team here at the NYCLU, but a huge team of allies, you know, around the state and around the country.

[47:32] None of us is like, you know, that's none of us can take credit for anything by ourselves, and all of us can take credit for all of it. So, you know, um, I mean, I hope I've done a good job. I think I've accomplished some important things, but you know, you know, things will go on without me. And I just want to set us up to make sure that the NYCLU is as strong and strategic as it can be, and set up to do that moving forward.

[48:11] And that means you know, centering issues of racism, which is like the legacy that we all have to grapple with, but doing so in a way that builds bridges and builds empathy rather than division. So we have to build, you know, across race, across gender, um, um, across ethnicity and religion, um, and and of course, citizen, non-citizen, and and you know, we have to recognize that that our while how we deal with individuals, how we behave in our day-to-day life is important, you know, we are all the products of a society and a set of laws, some of which are fabulous, you know, some of which set forth fabulous principles, and some of which really, really suck and perpetuate racism and gender inequality and homophobia. And so we we can't be blaming each other so much. We have to be focusing on you know, keep our eyes on the prize, as they say.

[49:24] Susan Blackwell: You know, we've said this about other people that we've talked about on this podcast before, and I think this is true of Donna as well. You're a big wave writer. You're not playing small. When I'm like, what do you need to do before you get it done? You're like a major political movement. I need to fix New York education, and I need to create a strong foundation for when I had pass the baton. Check. Big wave writer.

[49:49] Laura Camien: While I'm thinking about it, if people do want to um if if people hear this and they get excited and they do want to volunteer for work with the NYCLU or the ACLU, where do we send them?

[50:03] Donna Lieberman: Well, so our website at nyclu.org has a way to join, donate, and volunteer. Those are good things. So you know, yeah, pick your own adventure. Um, you know, and if there's, you know, I I don't guarantee that anybody can get through to me if they email me at D Lieberman at nyclu.org. But um you can try. Um I I wish I could say you could get through to me.

[50:32] Laura Camien: No, no, that you're a busy person.

[50:34] Donna Lieberman: I mean, just that offer. It's very impressive.

[50:37] Yeah, I mean, I I I mean, think, you know, we've grown um enormously thanks to the Trump bump. Um, but um, and I'm glad people appreciate us, but one of the things that I've lost as a result of having grown so much is my ability to engage as much as I would like, sure, you know, with with on a whole lot of levels. So but try me, you know, you never know.

[51:03] Laura Camien: People love it. You work so hard and it seems like your whole team works so hard tirelessly, endlessly. What's it all for?

[51:15] Donna Lieberman: Well uh you know, um first of all, I can't I can't imagine not devoting a good chunk of my life to improving our lot, you know, as a people, as a country, um, and um as a world, you know. And um if there's one regret I have about what I do, by the way, it's that I'm not working that much on climate change and like what's it all about if we don't have a you know, if we don't have a planet.

[51:51] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[51:51] Donna Lieberman: Um so I'm grateful to others who are doing that work. You know, to me, I think, you know, um it's about creating a society that is fairer, more just, um, and a place where, you know, um everybody can feel can thrive, can strive um uh and have opportunities. Um, you know, I got grandchildren.

[52:22] Laura Camien: That's right.

[52:23] Donna Lieberman: That's a good what's it all really good answer. Finally, what or who is sparking you these days, Donna Lieberman?

[52:30] Donna Lieberman: Oh, there's all these negative people who are sparking me.

[52:33] Laura Camien: But that's what we call those we call those dark sparks.

[52:36] Donna Lieberman: Dark sparks. Well, you know the the dark sparks are obvious, dark orange sparks, you know. Um and everybody in his, you know, um cult, you know. I mean, I can't imagine the politicians in Washington who have, you know, filled the swamp, you know, with Republican, you know, todayism, racism, elitism, capitalism. I mean, ugh. Um, but you know, the the bright sparks, you know, are there's so many. There's like, I mean, I still live on the the joy and courage of Edie Windsor.

[53:26] Laura Camien: Yes.

[53:26] Donna Lieberman: You know, I relish the the legacy of the John Lewis's and of the world, you know. I mean, you know, Brian Stevenson is like um uh an amazing uh role model of courage and smarts. Um there's so many, you know. Um I wish I had one in the presidential field anyway.

[53:57] Laura Camien: It's good though that these these you have these um spark sources to sort of keep you going, you know, to keep you buoyed and like keep you with your eyes on the prize.

[54:11] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, it's um you know um uh there are lots of people who've done amazing work and under much harsher conditions than ours, you know, Nelson Mandela spent decades in solitary confinement. And you know, victory was for the ANC huge and full of problems and full of new challenges. So I guess you know, the wisdom of old age is that like really the battle never stays won. Um and maybe you have to be content with small victories. But um uh man, do we have our work cut out for us?

[54:58] Laura Camien: Yeah. We were we recently talked to a graphic designer named Bonnie Siegler, and she did a book called Signs of Resistance. And it was a historical, I don't know if you've seen this book. We need to get you a copy of this book because beautiful. It's historically uh it's a visual timeline of protest and resistance in America. And her takeaway from all of that research um was basically a very comforting thought that we have been through very hard times before, and we got through them. And she, I mean, she's also fired up and angry about you know the state of the world at the moment, but she does take some comfort in knowing that it as a world, we've been in pretty rough spots previously, and we made it through.

[55:52] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, you know, it feels I mean, things do feel so dire, you know, because the consequences are um are the toll in lives in, you know, just yes upended um yeah you know, here and around the world, you know, based on the the the petty, you know, um greed and corruption of of the guy that we all let get elected you know to the white house and you know one of the lessons you know I think that I hope our country has learned you know all those people who stayed home you know in 2016 because ah you know you know one politician you know Hillary Trump same thing you know what a crock of shit that is you know and and you know we have to sort of you know it's important to figure out what your values are and to fight for them but it's also important to recognize where the context in which you're living and anybody anybody who claims to care a whit about equality um uh uh of racism um um freedoms democracy democracy you know rights reproductive rights everything you know is is you know anybody who cares about the values we hold dear you know um better fucking vote you know in the coming election and do everything that they possibly can you know to to to make sure that this election is not rigged as somebody once said and and and that we don't have to spend another four years you know just pushing pushing back against the juggernaut because the harm to our democracy that has already been done is going to take decades to undo.

[57:57] Donna Lieberman: And um, so so you know it's it's um um it's it's a tough time. It's a it's it's a a what the existential threat to to democracy is like real. This is very real. When I I hear this in listeners, when you hear this, if it does like spark a fire in you, if it does, if you feel similarly, take action. We were talking about that recently, like pick a thing, pick a thing that you know really speaks to you that you do feel passionate about, and take action. And if you have a hard time picking one, then do some volunteer work for a place or make a donation to a place like the NYCLU because that way you can, you know, you can support efforts across the board.

[58:49] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, and you know, um uh there's so much to do. I mean, we have to do we have to in New York, we have a special obligation. You know, we may be a blue state, and what have you know, and and we know how New York will vote in in in the presidential election. We don't know how New York will vote in the state elections, which are really, really important, or in the congressional elections, but but we have to make sure that New York is set up to be as much of a safe haven as possible. Whether Trump gets re-elected, I can't believe I said that, or not. And we have to give the people that we put in office the courage because they're not gonna find it any place else to do the right thing. That's how we got the reproductive health act.

That's how we got voting reform. That's how we got the green light bill that provides for drivers' licenses for undocumented New Yorkers. I mean, it's so important for us to be active. And at the NYCLU, we've got a legislative agenda that's 10 miles long. We may have accomplished a lot last year. We still have a lot to do.

[1:00:02] Donna Lieberman: And so you can become an e-activist for us, you know, if you're in, you know, outside of New York City. We have chapters outside of New York City, several places. You know, and you know, the other thing is some people live comfortably and some people don't, you know, and people don't necessarily put their money where their mouth is. Um, it may not be that you think you should support the ACLU. That's cool. But don't think that it's okay for you to amass your you know, bank accounts or investment portfolio and not support organizations that are fighting for social change. Do good organizations, service organizations, yeah. But social change is where we're gonna make sure that people are taken care of in our country, that people have rights in this country, um, and that we're able to push back.

[1:01:02] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[1:01:03] Laura Camien: I do too.

[1:01:04] Susan Blackwell: And I love you, Donna.

[1:01:05] Laura Camien: I love you.

[1:01:07] Susan Blackwell: You're so sparkish to us. You inspire us so much. And we're very grateful. I mean, we said it at the top. We'll just bookend this episode with our gratitude for the work that you do day in and day out. It's more than just writing a check, although writing a check is great. Um, it's more than a bit of volunteer work. It is your life's work, and all of our lives are better for it. So thank you so much.

[1:01:38] Laura Camien: Yeah, what she said.

[1:01:40] Donna Lieberman: Thank you guys. I love you.

[1:01:43] Donna Lieberman: Hi, listeners. This is a postscript with Donna Lieberman. In the time since we last spoke to Donna, the world has not only been dealing with the stresses of a global pandemic, but even more recently, a man named George Floyd was murdered by a police officer during a routine arrest in Minneapolis. This is only one of a long line of brutalities against people of color and specifically people who are black. What has followed is many nights of peaceful protest, and in some locations, the protests have escalated to violence. As someone who fights fearlessly and tirelessly for the powers of good, we wanted to get Donna's perspective on the events. Donna, thank you so much for taking the time to join us for an update. We've never done anything like this before, but with all that's happening, we really wanted to get your perspective on everything that's happening. So from where you're sitting in your position at the NYCLU, can you help us unpack all of this?

[1:02:40] Donna Lieberman: How's that for a giant question? Because I don't know anybody who thinks that they can unpack what's going on now. Yeah, I'm so big. I I I you know, I remember like the week that we um evacuated our office, you know, from Monday to Friday, our conversations went something like, well, okay, we should allow people to work from home. Um, maybe we should encourage people who know somebody who knew somebody to work from home. Um maybe we should what well maybe they they should work from home. Um you must work from home. Yeah. And and every day it felt eminently reasonable, reasonable, you know, what we were doing, and it was valid, you know, for like a minute and a half. And um, you know, as we have almost miraculously in New York at least, um, adjusted to this new bizarro, painful, um uh uncertain, scary normal.

Um, you know, the police, you know, um go out and kill black people. Um and you know, and what the police don't do, you know, white supremacists do. And you know, it's like um uh i it's hard to fathom um, you know, somebody um I was talking to today referred to our lives as like we're dealing with two dystopias, you know. Yes, and there's the pandemic and then there's the um the racism pandemic, yeah, which is far more intractable. Um but has been around a lot longer than this particular pandemic.

[1:04:55] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, and there's no vaccine to look for against racism. That's right. That's right. So, you know, you know, what we've tried to do, you know, in this, you know, in dealing with COVID, I mean, literally everything that was like important and difficult a week ago is like so you know gone today. So a week ago uh or two weeks ago, we were dealing with the issue of whether um uh in this public health crisis um there really was a ban on protest activity that was small and respected social distancing. And we were talking to some um groups that were protesting Samaritan's Purse in Central Park, the religious nuts who who who you know whose offer of help during the the height of the of the crisis in New York City uh was accepted.

Um and um we ended up they ended up sort of deciding to not meet us. Um but then a you know somebody who doesn't um share a lot of our values to put it mildly, um, who had participated in the open it up you know MAGA rally in Albany wanted to get protest in New York. And what was going on then? What was going on then was that she couldn't get a permit to protest in New York City. Um meanwhile, the governor had said that um well, religious services can happen if they are socially distant and less than 10 people, and um Memorial Day celebrations could go on if they are socially distant and less than 10 people. But you can't have a protest rally that's socially distant and less than 10 people. And so like there's a basic principle in First Amendment law that you can't, you know, discriminate against the message.

You can't prefer one kind of speech to another. You certainly can't prefer religion to non-religion. And so we filed a lawsuit, and like it was the it was like lightning, you know. I mean, we filed, and like before the afternoon of that day, you know, the governor's office changed the rules, you know, and they said, yeah, you can have a protest. And so like that was that was a victory. Protest, less than 10 people socially distant, you know, and boom, fast forward to, you know, uh less than a week later, and there are thousands of people in the street. Um, so my God. Uh it was uh it's been a very strange ride, you know. And that's just like one little aspect of what we're doing. That's really a very small piece of what we're doing.

[1:07:50] Donna Lieberman: You know, so much of the work that we've been doing has been focusing on um uh, you know, getting people out of jail, out of prisons, out of immigration detention. Um uh, you know, each of those places is a petri dish. It's you know, you send somebody to one of those places and it could very well be a death sentence. It has been for too many people, and like, you know, what kind, you know, the the the extreme consequences of this of decades of mass incarceration and Trump's you know um hateful policies on immigration are like, you know, they're like, you know, they're there for everybody to see. So we've been working hard on that stuff and um, you know, with mixed success, honestly.

[1:08:46] Susan Blackwell: For people who um just you know don't know exactly what do you do, how do you fight um and try to make a difference in a time like this?

[1:08:57] Donna Lieberman: The the NYCLU and the ACLU, you know, has a bunch of different tools in our little toolbox. You know, we file lawsuits, um, we do lobbying, we do advocacy and organizing, and this has required all of it. So we filed a lawsuit on behalf of parolees, uh, people who have been released on parole, who were arrested for alleged violations of parole, challenging this ridiculous, you know, rule that's in place that if you're arrested for violation of parole, um you're automatically incarcerated until you have a hearing. And now, given the COVID pandemic, you know, they're actually you know they may have resumed them, but there haven't been any hearings on parole. So not only are you automatically incarcerated for at least like 60 days, at least 60 days under normal circumstances.

Oh my god. But now you're incarcerated and and and it's gonna be 90, 120 days if you make it out alive. And oh my god. So that's a lawsuit that actually hasn't been successful, but we're pressing legislation to change the law so that people who are arrested on parole um are not automatically uh incarcerated like that. And actually we're pressing for a massive overhaul of the parole system. You know, instead of doing like the SMART thing, you know, you know, with the parole system, which is helping people reintegrate into society, you know, the whole approach of the parole system is, well, you know, you're really still in jail. You know, we have control over you, um, uh, but for, you know, uh, and can do anything we want with you.

We can raid your house at any time, we can check in to make sure you're in bed, we can, we can, you know, screw around with you if you don't go to a job when you're supposed to order a curfew for you uh or to a drug treatment program, you know. So what if you're in the hospital and don't show up in the drug program? I don't care. You know, bring you in and we'll ask, you know, you'll answer the questions later. That's the kind of approach that that that the parole system takes. And you know, and who are they taking it towards? I mean, you know, whoa, you know, um uh I mean the people who are you know tormented by this, you know, draconian system are almost exclusively, you know, black and Latinx people.

And so so this is um uh, you know, and and at the same time we're dealing with you know, a pandemic that is that is you know having a massively disparate impact on black and Latinx people. Um we're dealing with with we're creating Petri dishes and death traps of prisons which are massively black and Latinx. And and then the cops are out there, you know, um have killed people for all the world to see who are black. And you know, it's like enough already. Enough. And that's what we're seeing going on in the streets.

[1:12:09] Susan Blackwell: For those of us who have that impulse to get involved to support the powers of good in the most useful way possible, point us in the right direction.

[1:12:19] Donna Lieberman: How can we and or our listeners be of support and what action can people take in a time like this? So the first thing I want to say is the only legitimate kind of protest right now is nonviolent protest. If people want to break the law and make a point, engage in civil disobedience, fine. But engaging in random acts of violence does nobody any good. It does not promote the cause of justice. It doesn't promote the well-being of anybody in society. And we have to hold now is a time when we see police who have for years not been held accountable to anybody. In New York State, there's a law known as 50A which shields police disciplinary records from public scrutiny. Enough already, they have to repeal it.

The legislature has been too scared of its shadow, too scared of the police unions to repeal that law. Our mayor, you know, did a terrible thing in turning it into a much worse law than it started out. And we're pressing hard in Albany to repeal 50A. And so you should tell everybody, you know, who's in an elected position at the state level to repeal 50A, and people should do it now because one of the things that has happened as a result of what's going on nationwide is that politicians are realizing that they haven't done enough. You know, you can't undo the structure of racism if you don't have courage, you know, and if you don't dismantle, you know, systems that shield white supremacy and shield racist law enforcement from scrutiny and accountability.

And, you know, if ever we're gonna restore trust between law enforcement and the people, you know, we have to make the bad cops accountable. So that's one thing, and there's information on our website, nyclu.org about how to take action. There's more information about the issues, and that's just one thing. You know, we have a host of issues that we're working on. Let's talk about education, you know. You know, I mean, our finances, you know, as a state, as a nation, are disastrous, you know. So the stock market's doing fine. But the rest of the people are not doing so well. And there's talk of cutbacks, cutbacks, cutbacks. Remember when New York City elected a progressive mayor? Do you know that that progressive mayor wants to cut the crap out of education?

But nothing from the police department, nothing from the police department. I mean, police department budgets are so bloated, so bloated. You know, it's time for somebody to have the courage to redirect, you know, the money that's been given to the police department and the police lobby into doing some social good. Of course, police are important, but this is nuts. So, you know, it's sort of like a people's budget or a humane budget, a humanitarian budget. And remember, who's in our public schools? It's an outsized representation of the Black and Latinx community in New York and across the country, because Black people sometimes go to private schools, sure, but overwhelmingly, you know, rely on the public schools and if we don't fund adequately the public schools, you know, we lose a generation.

Well, you also think about like the school to prison pipeline. So when you remove support for those kids, aren't we going to just see more need for prisons and a police state? So it's like you're already making that decision by putting the budget into the police and not into the students.

[1:17:01] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:17:19] Donna Lieberman: I mean, I talk, I've been talking for years about the peace dividend. I want to see a police dividend in the New York City schools, which have the largest school safety division in the country, and which standing alone, if it were its own police department, now it's a subdivision of the NYPD, would be like the fifth largest police department in the country, just for the New York City public schools.

[1:17:48] Wow.

[1:17:49] Donna Lieberman: And crime in the schools is at the lowest it's been in years. Don't cut education, cut your bloated bureaucracy, you know, cut your cops, and cut this stupid high stakes testing business. And let's spend money, let's invest in the classroom. Let's invest, you know, on the playing field so kids can build community, can learn, and so that we don't lose a generation.

[1:19:12] Susan Blackwell: What have we not asked you about that you wish people understood or people knew?

[1:19:19] Donna Lieberman: God, I'm not used to that question. I don't know. I mean, I think that this is a bizarre and challenging and precarious moment in history. I mean, I feel like we're, you know, really at the edge of a precipice. I think there are opportunities created by this horrific situation we find ourselves in. There's an opportunity to go in a new and better direction, and there is an opportunity to just fall off the fascist cliff. And I think that it behooves us all to think about how each of us builds the community that we're all missing so much because of the social isolation, and how at least people who have some common ground can appreciate that there are a lot of people of goodwill who have been at various times marginalized and made vulnerable by society, by social biases, by racism, of course, but also by gender and gender identity.

And while it's really hard not to be angry, and anger is entirely appropriate when this shit goes on, when you watch, you know, George Floyd lying there. But thinking about how we move, build relationships and some glue so that we can move forward as a society. That's the challenge, you know. Of course, we've got to get that maniac, you know, away. And we need a new government, but you know, a new face, you know, a different party is only gonna be as good as the policies and the courage that it has to really take on some tough issues.

[1:22:16] Susan Blackwell: When you speak, Donna, I just keep thinking the takeaway is we have to courageously make our voices heard, and that's gonna be something different for each person. If you're somebody who can be out in crowds, that may be being in person protesting. If you're somebody who's a great writer, it may mean writing about it. Everybody who is of legal age should vote, vote, vote. Like this is the time with this pandemic, so much has broken down and we're going to be entering into a new normal. And if we make our voices heard, we could have some say in what this new world is, but people have to courageously stand up and make their voices heard.

[1:23:04] Donna Lieberman: Absolutely. Everybody should be voting.

[1:23:07] Donna Lieberman: Everybody should be voting. The primaries are one thing, but the general election, if you don't vote, you should be ashamed of yourself and your friends should shame you, even if it's a place that doesn't matter. Everybody needs to vote. But also everybody needs to fill out the census. The census is the key, yeah, to representation in Congress. And it's the key to access to the allocation of federal funds, whether it's for highways or schools or lunch or medication, and if people don't do that, we are screwed. So democracy kind of, you know, may feel a little like something that yeah, we got it, you know.

[1:23:58] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I don't think that we can take it for granted at all.

[1:24:02] Donna Lieberman: Yeah, I think that's right. We really need to show up. And like that's a little easy way. Go online, census.gov. You know, fill it out. It takes four and a half minutes. Okay, five if you're a Luddite, you know. Everybody's gotta do it. You know. So step one, complete the census. Step two, vote. Step three, and this is bonus points. You can go to the NYCLU website. You can learn all about or on their social media. I think you all do a great job at keeping up with your Twitter, etc. And as we've said before, pick a thing, pick a thing and do it. Just pick a thing and do it.

[1:24:43] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[1:24:44] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thank you so much for joining us again, Donna. Thank you so much. Your time is so precious always, but especially right now. And we're gonna let you get back to fighting the good fight for our listeners. We hope to God this put another bunch of sparks in your file. If you want to reach out to us, you can email us at thesparkfile@gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently. You can follow us on social media at The Spark File. Be sure to subscribe, rate five-star review this podcast. If you like this podcast, share it with people you love. If you didn't like it, Donna, what do you say to your critics?

[1:25:27] Donna Lieberman: You're entitled to your opinion. Just don't tell anyone.

[1:25:33] Susan Blackwell: Very classy.

[1:25:34] Laura Camien: Very classy.

[1:25:35] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. Here's my poem to close out this episode. Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter. That's it. You gotta take it and make it. Thank you, Donna.

[1:26:10] Donna Lieberman: Thank you so much.

[1:26:11] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, guys.

[1:26:14] Donna Lieberman: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark file.

[1:26:22] Donna Lieberman: Spark could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:26:29] Donna Lieberman: I'll pump it in the spark file.

[1:26:33] Donna Lieberman: I jump into my spark file.

[1:26:38] Donna Lieberman: Let's open up the spark file.