This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: The Spark File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Laura Camien: Please use your discretion.

[0:09] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:17] Laura Camien: Spark File will be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump in my spark file.

[0:23] Laura Camien: Spark File.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark file.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the Spark File.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't do it alone.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:44] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, you are so welcome. But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get a spark file? What do I file in my spark file? These are such good questions, and we actually do have answers.

[0:57] Susan Blackwell: We do. A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry. We're here to refill it.

[1:16] Laura Camien: That's right, babies. We are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to rise up off of our asses and make things like this very podcast.

[1:30] Susan Blackwell: Or a series of short films with your best friends. Or a campaign to get behind a local politician you love. Or a show poster that is itself a work of art. Or some sweet ass dance moves.

[1:45] Laura Camien: On today's Makersode, we're gonna talk with someone who truly sparks us. And that special someone is John Early.

[1:54] Susan Blackwell: John Early, welcome to the Spark.

[1:54] John Early: Hello.

[2:03] Susan Blackwell: We want to start by asking where are you right now?

[2:09] John Early: Absolutely. Here we go.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: And how are you right now for reels?

[2:14] John Early: Okay, let's see. I am in Los Angeles, where I moved maybe four years ago.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: You're a real showbiz type.

[2:22] John Early: I am. It's so interesting. I really think we could devote the whole hour to the differences between New York and LA if you guys are down.

[2:29] Laura Camien: I'm totally down for that.

[2:31] John Early: Some versus comedy.

[2:32] John Early: 100%. West Coast versus East Coast comedy. I would love it. Um, and then no, okay, that's where I am. I'm in Los Angeles, and I am um I'm sitting in the room in my quote unquote office. It really has yet.

[2:44] John Early: I moved here in June, so it's kind of not fully like, you know, inhabited yet.

[2:52] Susan Blackwell: I feel like there's a house I see you in when you do interviews and stuff that it like is it the same house you were in when you uh filmed the the short film Rachel like is it that house?

[3:06] John Early: It's not, but it's I that was the place I lived for four years, then I moved here.

[3:10] Susan Blackwell: Oh wow. It's similar to that in vibe, it's kind of cottagey and sweet and like tree housey, which is really.

[3:19] John Early: What I was picturing, just for what it's worth, what I was picturing was more just like glass, concrete, and stone. Like like you moved on up. You moved away from stucco and alcoves, and you moved into that.

[3:33] John Early: Just Neil Patrick Harris in Gone Girl.

[3:36] John Early: Just cold and lonely.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. American Psycho.

[3:40] John Early: That's the vibe. Now we have the picture.

[3:43] John Early: Top of the world. Where are you guys?

[3:45] Laura Camien: Oof. Well, Suze.

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: Sues is on the side of a mountain.

[3:50] Susan Blackwell: I'm on the side of a mountain. John, I live on the side of a mountain.

[3:53] John Early: Where?

[3:55] Susan Blackwell: When I was like, I don't want to do eight shows a week of anything. I was like, as long as I can get to location or to get to my work, I can live anywhere. And so I took my introverted ass and moved to the side of a mountain.

[4:06] Laura Camien: Cammy, where do you live?

[4:08] Laura Camien: Well, I'm most frequently in New York City, but for the duration of the pandemic, I have been in sunny Florida.

[4:15] Laura Camien: So I like to bounce back and forth, but you know, during a pandemic, I like to hang here.

[4:22] John Early: I love that technology has brought us all together, though.

[4:25] Laura Camien: I know sincerely.

[4:26] John Early: And often so seamlessly on an audio level.

[4:29] Laura Camien: And so seamlessly. And John, but for reels, the second part of that two-parter is how are you? How has it been?

[4:34] John Early: Yeah, I was trying to swiftly navigate away from the second question. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No. I'm um, I'm actually pretty good. I I feel like I've been in a kind of just flattened. I've kind of been ping-ponging between just like total despair or just kind of a flat kind of um I feel like you I feel like you just did, and we'll talk about this more, but you you just did a big heavy lift. Like I feel like you throughout the the election, you worked really hard. I feel like you expended a lot of creative energy.

[5:17] Laura Camien: And so are you a little bit like just wrung out from that?

[5:22] John Early: Well, honestly, um, to get right into it, I mean, I that first of all, that is the answer to your first question. That particular question is.

[5:31] John Early: We like to write the answers, ask the questions and the answers. That's what we like to do. It's our special thing. But I will I actually feel like um that was very uh it's I feel corny saying this, but it was it was actually very nourishing creatively on uh you know politically everything. It was like touching in with just someone who is an actual like public servant and like someone who I mean there there it was there was a total alignment of like my kind of like um very poorly formed politics, but all but like you know, what what I know of my own politics completely aligned with Marquita Bradshaw who we're talking about.

[6:12] John Early: Um it was a very I I it actually was it felt very good because I also hadn't used a lot of those like muscles um in a while because of the pandemic, and I I am really happy when I am like producing when I'm like getting the gang together and making a video.

[6:12] Susan Blackwell: And you're so good at it, yeah.

[6:35] John Early: Thank you, Susan. And especially when I'm like not, you know, doing it with um kind of overlords like corporate overlords where it's like with my friends and when everyone's kind of in the right spirit and there's a there's a sense of like excitement about it, um, and there was so much to be excited about with Marquita, and so it it was very um it felt incredible. Like that was actually a profoundly cathartic uh experience.

[7:00] Laura Camien: Yeah. So she was Marquita was running for US Senate in Tennessee, is that correct?

[7:05] John Early: Yes.

[7:06] Laura Camien: And can I just ask you how something that and you may have answered this publicly, and I apologize if I'm making you repeat yourself, but how did you come to find her? And how did you what moved you? Because you went talk about the price spark file price of admission. This is a big creative risk that I well, I don't know if I can't. This may not be. But I did I in my observation, you swung for the fences. Like you went all in and put what seemed if you have more capacity than the capacity you expended on the work that you did on that campaign, then you are a gifted human. But it seems like you put all of your energy for a period of time behind that work that you were doing. Is that is that a fair assessment?

[8:01] John Early: Yeah, I mean, it is. Like, you know, and it was also it was really thrilling to realize that my the my kind of creative skills that I've developed over the years could actually be of use. Like transferable so much. It was actually transferable instead of this thing of like, okay, I'm very out of my comfort zone, and I'm because I've done a lot of these kind of like I've encouraged people to phone bank, or like I did a video on like canvassing, you know, and I was like horrified. Like we I have we had, you know, my friend shot this video of me canvassing in like the 2018, uh, the you know, midterms. And like I literally, I mean, the point of the video was that I did not know what I was doing. Like I I had I'm not a policy wonk. You know, I'm not like I was completely out of uh my real time learning in the video.

[8:53] John Early: Yes.

[8:53] John Early: Yeah, and it was embarrassing, and I was like, kind of, I was like, oh God, I will I'm really hoping my charm takes over. And it like, and I was honestly like too hung over for even the charm to like take over. I was like, I was like, okay, well, the charm's not coming. I literally can't string a sentence together, and I literally have no idea what I'm talking about. And like the camera was rolling as I'm talking to these like total strangers about their like about what, you know, like what they're concerned about in the election. They would say something like, cool. Like I had nothing to I it was a disaster. I mean, the video is fine, but like it was nice to actually, I was like, this is actually something I'm good at.

I'm good at like kind of I'm good at like seeing star quality in people. It's such an embarrassing thing to say, but like recognize talent. I can, and like I I saw that in Marquita, and like I felt like I trusted, I actually trusted myself more making this video than I would trust a random like PR firm that they would that the campaign would hire. Because no one, I just don't trust those people actually also to have the kind of to understand what's special about her, both personally and politically, you know.

[10:03] John Early: Yeah, and like she she basically she came. I was, you know, still in the process of grieving uh Bernie losing in the primary, and like she out of I had not even heard of her, even though I'm from Tennessee, and no one had heard of her. She had no ad money. She won the she like went up against this like establishment backed Democrat who had millions, literally two million, over two million in his um campaign. And sh she not only did she beat him with only $22,000, she knocked him down to third place. Like he didn't and to me, I'm just like, I'm always looking for stories like this.

[10:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[10:45] John Early: Where like police politically, for me, it's like I always want to see, I always want people to realize that like money does not make movements, money does not make political movements, and like the only way we're ever going to get out of our like partisan chokehold is through actually people who are on the ground talking to people, and like I'm paraphrasing like a tweet I read the other night, but it's like people who are actually helping people connect the material conditions of their lives to the two policymakers. You know, because like we're never gonna move get anywhere unless you have someone like Marquita who has been doing this for 25 years, going door to door and being like, okay, the reason, like, so let's talk about the pandemic.

Let's talk about this like economic depression we're about to face. Like, like you should have you are entitled to health care, like you are entitled to uh I mean, we just need people like deprogramming people who are so brainwashed by the American dream. And like Marquita is someone who has like lived a crazy life. She grew up next to this toxic landfill in South Memphis, poisoned her whole community, and she's spent the past like 25 years doing environmental activism and organizing around this like toxic landfill and like and protecting her community.

[12:01] John Early: And then she also was in union organizing, and she's just an actual working person, so she actually can speak to these things, and she she has done such a beautiful job of helping people understand, and I'll stop talking about this in a second, but she's done such a beautiful job of helping people understand that like it makes how just insane it is that Congress is full of just insanely rich people making decisions about incredibly vulnerable like working people. And she and so I to me in this kind of the wake of my grief about Bernie, I was like, I couldn't and also the Charles Booker thing in Kentucky was so tremendous. I was like so excited by the idea of this person like with an actual movement behind him, and and he really could have won his primary had people found out about him sooner, but he didn't have money, like he didn't have money to he didn't have the literally almost 100 million dollars that Amy McGrath had.

[13:01] John Early: Yeah. So like it I just I saw the Marquita thing happen in Tennessee. I saw a news an article about it about her primary win, and I was like, holy shit. Like, if I can try to make a big stink about her online, hopefully, like she can have some more momentum going into the um the you know the thing that the election. You know, on this podcast, we talk, you know, we talk so much about keeping your eyes open and keeping your heart open and just catching those sparks of inspiration when they float by, and instead of just being like, oh, that would be cool, and then forgetting about it and being like, what should we make for dinner? Like actually like keying into it, and if it really moves you in a visceral way, fucking doing something about it, making something out of it. And I feel like you in reading that article caught a spark. Did you just reach out to their campaign? Like, how did that happen?

[13:58] John Early: Well, I my sister actually now lives in Nashville again, where we grew up, and um she she was like really excited about Marquita too and was like, I'm gonna reach out to the campaign and like see if what see what I can do, you know, and there it's a very small campaign. So like it was very truly a grassroots campaign. So they had, you know, it's not that inaccessible. It's not hard to like get in touch with them. And um got it, yeah. And and so she just she basically like set up a call where she was with me and like the finance director, and and it was really and I had no kind of I was like, you know, I'll do a c a couple targeted posts. You know, I was like not I I was I I didn't really know how I felt about like my involvement because and this is where we get into the question of like what's the risk or like a recent risk that you took was like there was obviously something profoundly terrifying to me.

I mean, maybe not obviously, but to me it was it was really scary to um just I I mean I've I've experienced like being like so high on caffeine and like and giving interviews where I'm talking about my politics, and then literally three months later my politics being like 180 degrees, like just completely different.

[15:17] John Early: Yeah and so there's something really terrifying, as I'm sure you can relate to about like not even exactly. That's the hell of being creative. That's right. Is like, yeah, you're like committing to like the public record, like your point of view, and then four months later you're like, oops, like I fully don't believe that, you know. And so there was there's that, and there's also this this I've become more and more troubled kind of by the the blending of art and politics and culture, and I feel like it's really weakened art, and I feel like it's really fucked with politics, like political movements. And I and so I'm I I'm kind of like on principle. Like, like I don't want to do this anymore.

I don't want to like it, it shouldn't be up to like dumb gay celebrities, you know, to like to make it. To get the word out for her. Like we should have like institutions that like actually support the kinds of politicians like Marquita who fight for like working people. Um so yeah, I was scared about it. But then I so I did this fundraiser, and that was once I did the fundraiser for her when I was like, oh, you actually can have fun with an online show, and and it was just really, and I was like talking to her on the fundraiser, and I was just so blown away by her. It was like the actual contact with her that turned it around for me, where I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go like I'm going online to Nashville.

I'm gonna like go make a video. So that's the other one. But but I don't know. I we are so in love with your creativity. And then during the election, when you sort of really honed in on Marquita's campaign, I I don't know. We have no claim to you. We were super happy we just love you. We love you in that weird and awkward way. But you know, the other thing we talk about or have been talking about, you know, for some time now is the pivot that everyone's had to do. And I love this example of taking your creative skills. It's you know, yes, you added your celebrity to it, but really more importantly, you added your production skills and your producing skills and applied them to political organizing and community organizing. I don't think that that is necessarily an obvious jump for so many.

[17:39] John Early: I want I just want to say that because we have so many friends who are producers kind of waiting for gigs to start happening and you know so many people waiting and I'm like ooh what a great effing use of your talents.

[17:54] John Early: I yeah I mean I did I really felt like a um I felt determined to make some again because like the time like there wasn't much time. There was like basically a month between the fundraiser and the election. And so I knew that like it was very scary because I felt like I had very little time to make something that was in could pierce through the noise of like all the kind of political content that we were all take you know consuming every single day. And I did I really didn't trust anyone to not be like super cheesy about it. Like it's very hard to make political ads that aren't cheesy. And like I also didn't necessarily try like one thing that I learned in this like just about campaigns and my involvement with them is like even someone like Marquita who's extremely progressive and is running this grassroots campaign and we have all these examples thank God now Bernie Sanders, AOC Charles Booker and on and on of these like kind of successful grassroots campaigns that came out of nowhere like there's still that has yet to be kind of institutionalized like her campaign staff and they were amazing but like they were apt they were kind of they were for hire.

You know these are not people who like are life like lifelong organizers and stuff. And I kind of was like, I need to like, and this is insanely egotistical of me, but I was like, I need to get in there and make sure that like the messaging is correct. Because like I didn't necessarily because she's too busy. They're very busy, but they're also like I I was like, I don't necessarily trust that they're kind of contextualizing her as the kind of progressive icon that she is and and particularly a progressive icon in the South. Like that's why she's such an incredible opportunity just like nationally. And and so I felt a big kind of I felt like I could do a good job of making it like beautiful and protecting her like her like progressive values.

Like you know I I don't know. So yeah that was that was yeah the storytelling the storytelling is is everything and I love that you were like wait I can do this. I know how to do this and you know center her in it and her values and make sure that's reflected.

[20:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So John, do you want to use that officially as your smartphone price of admission this this is your creative risk you've taken recently or do you want to tell us another one?

[20:24] John Early: Well that's a pretty I would like to use I would like to use that as my risk but I would like to focus in on particularly what the risk was. Ooh okay and I think it'll be very not to control but I think it'll be very generative by the end of this you're producing this podcast. Absolutely amazing.

[20:47] John Early: No but I think I can if I really narrow in on this particular quality of terror that I experienced making this then I can um it we could it can become like abstract we we can universalize it and talk about other things.

[20:59] Susan Blackwell: Love it and then I think we have 15 minutes at the end where we can do some music. It'll be a wrap. We could recap this. Just we'll just recap what you did in Tennessee and then we're good to go. In folk songs.

[21:10] John Early: So tell okay, tell us. Let's like let's hone in then.

[21:14] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Tell us about that fear that you felt.

[21:18] John Early: Well, I'm really curious to know if you've felt a similar fear in any of your work. Um, Susan, I you know, I I am very familiar with your work, especially in Title of Show. And like, I, you know, immediately recognized you as like a deeply funny person. Um, so I wonder if you can kind of commiserate with this, but like there is something totally terrifying being a like comedian, or even just kind of being a funny person in the world who like, you know, I I kind of defined myself in, you know, I think a lot of funny people define themselves in the negative. They define themselves in opposition to things in response to things, especially in response to like hyper, like like false sincerity, or like um, you know, it and and so that that's been my kind of like life's like work and my life's like struggle, which is like all like being an incredibly earnest, um, emphatic, enthusiastic person who also is like deeply troubled by like most expressions of sincerity.

And so like, and it can often be very paralyzing. And so, like, there is there was something totally terrifying and and even like psychologically just like disturbing. Like, I I knew that it had to be done. I knew that there was no reason, there was no point in kind of questioning my motives in doing it. But there's obviously like it was it was really scary for me to be like, why am I doing like why am I swooping into this campaign? Like, she doesn't need my fucking help. Like, she knows exactly what she's doing. Like, what is this like kind of Hollywood like impulse of like, look at the celebrity, go look at Audrey Hepburn in Africa, you know, like with the children, like, you know, like I there is it was again, there was like no time to question it.

[23:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, the world is too insane right now. The work had to be done.

[23:22] John Early: Yeah, there's no point, it's unproductive to kind of pick apart one's like motives or whatever. But it was obviously scary as like a deeply self-aware person with a platform with a kind of comedic voice, an established comedic voice, to do something as earnest as make like a campaign video.

[23:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yeah, and that really terrified me. And I there were points where I was like literally having conversations with the campaign where I was like, and we won't, of course, publish that. I did this, like, you know, I was like, I was like, I don't think we should, and they and they literally were like, Well, I think it kind of is great, and it makes it more of a story, and maybe people will be more interested in it. And I, of course, it took nothing for me to be like, okay, you know, it's like because I had worked hard and I wanted my, you know, it's so it was it was scary a little bit.

[24:08] John Early: You know, I I do relate to that, and I I think John, I do think that is vulnerable. It's like feels like the definition of vulnerability to be like, so my performative persona is something more like this, and I'm going to risk dropping that for a moment to you know do something that I'm really passionate about. I think that is vulnerable, but I also feel like to me, it just represents growth when you can be like, I'm gonna take a swing and share some more dimensions.

[24:48] John Early: And I always have that other thing. I will, you know, I can always jump back to that other thing. But for me, when I started doing more work that was like I my favorite is the combo platter. I love shit that is like really funny. And then it's sort of like I am not afraid to take you down a dark road for a moment. And or uh more vol like, and then I'm gonna like undercut it with a joke, like just that like kind of like that playing with a chemistry set and sort of calibrating and tinkering. That's my favorite, is sort of the combo platter. And I think a lot of times it's easier to for people to take information in if it goes in with a spoonful of sugar.

[25:31] Susan Blackwell: Totally. I'm stoked that you just fucking went for it. And you didn't have to be dressed as Vicky, like you fucking went for it. I think it's great. I think it officially admits you to the spark file.

[25:47] John Early: Thank you so much. It's an honor. Listen, for those who don't know you as a political organizer, how do you identify yourself creatively? We're curious. Like when people say, "What do you do?" How do you answer that?

[26:08] John Early: Well, I usually just say comedian because I feel like it's for some reason less embarrassing than being like an actor-writer, like it feels less pretentious. Director, actor, writer, director, I guess I'm multi-hyphen, if that makes sense. Yeah, like you know, it's much easier to be like, "I'm a comedian." And also like it does actually feel true to me. Like, even if I do other things, and even if there is like a bleeding heart part of me, it's like I do that's like your heart. I identify as a comedian for sure.

[26:39] Susan Blackwell: That makes sense. And for the noobs, what creative work are you most known for? Or another way of asking this is what are you, what creative work are you proudest of?

[26:50] John Early: Well, you know, they're often not the same. I would say I'm most known for Search Party, which I'm an actor on, and which I really am deeply proud of. I'm very, very proud of it.

[27:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[27:07] John Early: But it's delicious. I was scared of it because I was, you know, my whole, my like, um, kind of crazily egotistical path that I had laid out for myself greatly. Like it was always to kind of make my own work and make my originator.

[27:23] Laura Camien: Yes.

[27:24] John Early: So I was so that was scary for me a little bit.

[27:26] Susan Blackwell: That's interesting because a lot of people that we talked to started as interpretive artists, and really the big risk for them was moving into being originating artists. You actually have always been, as long as I've known you, have been an originator, and then you took the spin into, I think you've always been a gifted interpretive artist as well, but I think it's interesting that it's like a reverse risk.

[27:51] John Early: Totally. Well, I mean, and also it kind of helped me accept that I maybe am an interpretive artist. Like, you know, maybe not just like, um, it's not that I'm just that, but like I did, it did help me kind of relax the part of myself that needed to be some sort of like wonder kid. Yeah, like you know, I'm of a generation that's like very, you know, that grew up with like the promise of the Clintons, like, you know, just like of like you will succeed, you will like you, uh, you achieve your dreams, and like, and there was this kind of, I think expectation in my 20s for a lot of people, um, you know, for my generation when we were in our 20s, it was like they were like the Lena Dunhams of the world, and like it was like, it was like, yeah, you go, you the path everyone's goal is to become a showrunner at age 14, or you know, like to become like an auteur at age 14, and like, and I think it's really, really nice to see people realize like, oh, that's well, also just the entertainment world has changed so dramatically in like five seconds, so it's like, and just yeah, but like, but I definitely had to Search Party was a way where I was like, oh, I actually like interpreting. I really, really like acting. Like, I really like to kind of...

[29:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, but that writing is so fucking good. I bet it makes a pleasure.

[29:10] John Early: Yeah, it's such a pleasure. Do you find like it's hard at all to give up the control that you have with your own projects? You know, is that a shift you have to make mentally when you are, are you really bossy when you're doing Search Party?

[29:26] John Early: Yeah, you got a lot to say about it.

[29:28] Susan Blackwell: You got a lot to say about it.

[29:30] John Early: I am the opposite.

[29:32] Laura Camien: Yeah, I've been very buggy so far.

[29:35] John Early: Can I just give you a note on the podcast?

[29:38] Susan Blackwell: Are we doing notes?

[29:39] John Early: Um, you can check this out, right? Actually, leave it in. Um, I'm, um, I the thing that I love love about Search Party was like, is like I get to go to New York for like three months. Uh-huh. And I love being in New York. And I eat like a king. And I like guzzle wine. I'm like, I'm literally like I when I do Search Party, I have gout. Which is not true. But like, but I'm literally like I just love that I can kind of there's like three months out of the year where I when I'm not in control of my schedule, where I can kind of shut everything down to like sorry, I'm doing this now.

[30:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:20] John Early: And I get to show up and do something. And I think the work, as much as um, it's bad for my body, the work is like benefits from me kind of not caring in a way. And I I've found that I'm a better actor on things that I don't write. You know, like I'm much more like loosey-goosey.

[30:39] Laura Camien: Is that true, really?

[30:40] John Early: Oh, you feel more like you feel freer in your performance.

[30:43] John Early: Well, I think what it is is that the things that I make. Are you just drunk through the whole shoot?

[30:48] John Early: Yeah, absolutely tanked. Um, no, I'm when I the things that I make, I'm usually editing too. So I am confronted with you have that. Well, I always think of it like there's a tentacle that coming out from my neck and attached to that tentacle is an eyeball, and the eyeball is watching me with such scrutiny because I know that I'm gonna have to take it and cut it.

[31:09] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[31:11] John Early: Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Is there anything else that you feel like you're super proud of that you want to shout out or well the characters I'm very very proud of, which you were involved in Lauren Lapkiss's episode as we all know.

[31:26] Susan Blackwell: And um, all the people know.

[31:29] John Early: Yeah, all the charts. The characters' heads. Because that was such a successful show. Um but that was um that was like a dream come true. Just like I had spent a few years developing, like just getting really invested in like kind of trying to figure out what my little like comedic persona was and making these short films with my friends for free. And like it was like this insane moment in like Netflix's history where they were like, let's try to be a little like avant-garde or like you know and they did this, and then they just were like, you can do whatever you want. And like it was like, oh, and like I had I don't know, it just was a total dream. And I got to kind of weave together all these like favorite parts of my uh comedics, and it was a dream.

[32:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Um can I can I ask you a character-specific question?

[32:19] John Early: Uh you should know that the the this the remaining questions in this podcast are all just Laura and I getting to ask you all the things we want to ask you while we have the chance.

[32:28] John Early: I'm absolutely thrilled.

[32:29] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so this is a deep cut, and if you haven't watched The Characters, you might want to pause this podcast and go watch John Early's episode of The Characters on Netflix. Okay, there is a moment in...

[32:39] John Early: And then leave it running and then leave it running and have it repeat.

[32:44] Susan Blackwell: And then there is a moment in your episode where you're on, you're playing this sort of like, I don't know, like sort of this with all due respect, kind of this like offish Christian character on a blind date. And you're having a meal with this very sweet girl who's trying to make conversation with you. And in it, it's sort of smash cuts to your character almost like going into a recovered memory, or like, what is that? What was that? Tell us.

[33:23] John Early: That was, you know what's funny about that, I wrote that, like coming directly out of a breakup, like an extremely painful breakup.

[33:35] John Early: And not the characters, but that particular sketch. Yes. And I was like, and I remember kind of coming out of that breakup and feeling like so raw and being like, now is the time to like drop the mask and make something about your pain. And then I ended up the only thing I wanted to make was like me as a straight dude. And I think it was like, I think it was about the fact that he is very, that is very much a part of me, which is like I sometimes feel just like a fucking dumb fuck. Like just a total just like a puppy dog, you know, and like, and I think it was very cathartic for me to like kind of like completely externalize what I like feel like I am in relationships or something, and like, and then I think to me, I've always just as I was writing it, I was like, it would be so funny.

I mean, I this wasn't completely just um I didn't think about this at all. I just thought it'd be funny, and now looking back on it, I'm like, I think it's just there is something interesting to me about these kind of like, you know, this is definitely retroactive, I want to be clear. Um, but but I do that, I do think it's really interesting. The you know, it's like it's important to remember that the way we kind of like flatten and like portray like straight men, especially like it's important to remember that they're like complex creatures with like their own emotional trauma, and like I thought it would be really kind of sweet, but also in the moment I think I thought it'd be more hilarious to just like see this kind of idiot on a date and then just like to go quickly into like some sort of strange like sexual moment like in his like teenage years like in a gay particularly a gay moment yeah like so she that's kind of what he's hiding or something.

[34:55] Laura Camien: One of the the here's the uh the thing I loved about it and I know this is the part that you have this tendency I have this tendency to like undercut it uh but it it makes it it up to me and this is we're gonna talk about this more because you can see it in all of your work it makes it not just sort of like here's an episode of a sketch show and here's some characters here's a here's a bushel basket of characters I've put together it is that and it's also a piece of art it's like a a a little piece of art because it's sort of like what it because it's not all like laid out for you and I'm like it gives it this crazy dimension and it's actually beautifully shot.

[36:15] John Early: So I I don't know I it's one of the reasons and the way that that lives and in your other work as well that I feel like I am drawn to your work consistently over the years.

[36:30] Susan Blackwell: And this seems as good a time as any to say this. So just like a little bit of backstory. So I first met you via email when you I think were a little baby student at NYU I think is that right?

[36:32] John Early: Tiny little baby.

[36:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, tiny little baby and you emailed me a video that you had made and I knew that you had made it for me because it actually you said my name in the video. It wasn't something that you had that old track.

[36:54] John Early: I actually tried to find the I actually tried to find your email in preparation for this today and it's somewhere on I'm sure it's somewhere on a hotmail server.

[37:03] Susan Blackwell: But uh but you know Laura and I get a lot because of the work we do we get a lot of email from a lot of people who send us things they're making and it's it's all great. That video was so fucking good and it was like you doing a college orientation speech with that the old trope of look to your right to your left and I was like who the fuck is this very special weirdo and I was moved to respond to you very quickly which completely I I mean I were you sending those videos all over town like it was absolutely and I had replaced the names each time no no no no I well you do you remember why the because you it was your birthday oh and there was your 40th birthday I don't know but it was something like there was some sort of I put out a call on my 40th birthday where I was like don't give me anything make me something yes it was that and I was such an obsessive title of show fan I had like seen it randomly my freshman year of college imagine coming into New York a suit um and uh suitcase full of dreams but I was weather shoes yeah um but yeah I was like I saw the closing night a title of show title of show at Vineyard oh my god wow.

[38:30] John Early: It was a complete accident. It was like my crush that I had at the time loved it and was like, you know, I was like, oh, I gotta see it. And I managed to get tickets like completely accidentally on the closing night, and I had no idea what I was walking into. And it was of course, I walked into like an extremely emotional environment full of people who love the show or were involved with the show. Did you feel like you were at like a band that like everybody loved and you were like, uh? No, I felt like I was at like a funeral. It was like everyone I felt like was on edge, but it was all very like it was a celebration, but I was yeah, I was absolutely rocked. I was weeping, I was screaming, laughing.

I could not, I mean, you have to understand, I had no idea what I was walking into, and it was like it was insane, and you guys were all crying, and it was like it was just it was insane. I always like retroactively embarrassed about that stuff because I'm like I always think about who are the people sitting there watching it that are like girl, you're not all that. Like, dry your hot tears, you're not all that those people that said it wasn't for them. Relax like boy. But yeah, I like from then on, I remember I mean I used to check the Title of Show website like literally every day. Like Jeff Bowen needs to know that. It was psychotic.

[40:07] John Early: Really? Just updating the blogs. Thank Laura Camien and Laura Camien is the person who brought that show to the world. Thanks, Laura. Oh my god, Laura. I bow to you, I'm on my knees. Well, seriously, come into the show. Thanks for your support. Thank you for all that kindness. But there were some other moments that so first that video came, and I was like, this is genius. No, you it was just like it was. I was out. Oh, Hunter Bell says hi. I was actually talking to him today. But he said that you had emailed him, so I guess you were writing to all the girls you invited, maybe invited us, but certainly I was unable to attend. But he went to see you in a show that you did at NYU and was like, in school, it was so clear, like your talent was so clear and fully formed even then.

But then there were these moments that I have bumped into these little pieces of you and your work that I still like every single time afresh, I'm just like, yes, yes, yes. So I was do I was on a different episode of The Characters, and I was in hair and makeup, and I looked to my left, and there's a wig on a wig stand. And I said to, I was like, oh, it was sort of like a um Kate Gossett. What's what was that lady's name? John and Clayton Plus Eight, uh, like a baby chick in the back and then bangs on in the front. And I was like, who, what is that, and who is that for? And the hair and makeup people were like, oh, it's for John Early's episode. And I was like, oh my god, a fucking wig, a wig had me undone. Oh my god. Other hits of yours. Sorry, just sit and take this. Oh, I'm honey, asshole wide open.

[42:03] John Early: Okay. That's right. Fully dilated. You years ago, you all you know what? We should post this when we post this episode because it, oh my God. I showed it to Camien because I was like, Camien, I just want you to take some spoonfuls of this. I was like, this is a video that John Early made years ago with the Cocoon Central Dance Team for a show you guys were doing at Arsnova, and about I'm honest with you, Hunter Bell does this, I do this, and now Laura Camien does it as well. About once a year, we put on that video and just we'll watch it like three times in a row. Because it's so fucking satisfying. It's so good. It's just like it's so pleasing to us. Is it with the animated background? Yes, it has that green 90s squiggle vision animated background, yeah, and you have a black eye that turns into like a bejeweled black eye.

And the music's so mellow, like it's the dancing is so hot. I it's so good. It so truly thrills me that you love that video. I love that this is just becoming a clip reel of your greatest hits. But here's a here's a question, and this is for nobody but me. Good. Have we ever met in person? Like ever at like in the lobby at Joe's Pub or at a Cola Schola Jeffrey Self show or anywhere? I am pretty sure we have met in person, but I don't think it was like long enough for either of us to remember. But I'm pretty sure we met there was some sort of crossover on The Characters. Like, because those were all shot out of sequence that like every episode was shooting at the same time. And I'm pretty sure I had a moment of being like, Susan, and like a touching in and being like, I made that video for you, and you knew.

I mean, I'm there's all the things. I may have had the wig on. I also somehow, and somehow, I mean, you the common theme, the fact that I was emailing you and Hunter, it's psychotic. But like I went to I'm pretty no, I definitely went to the closing night at Broadway too. Title of Show. Oh I just bought tickets. You just like to see everyone cry. Exactly. I was sick of the last night. But that was um, you know Allie Stroker from Oklahoma. Of course, yeah, yeah. I brought Allie Stroker. Oh she had never seen it. And we love it. Yeah. And it will, and we were like, it's funny. When I've spent time with Allie Stroker, she's never mentioned she's not mentioned it. Let me talk to her. Let me talk to her first. That's awkward. I'm pretty sure I met you there. I don't know.

[44:50] John Early: Interesting. I was talking with Michael R. Jackson recently last week. And he was saying, yes, Pulitzer Prize winner for A Strange Loop, friend of the pod. And he was saying how you appeared in a piece he wrote when you were both students at NYU, and Allie Stroker was in it, and lots of other great people. Star studded. Star studied. That's how I met Allie. And I was completely nude. He didn't. I'm honestly shocked he didn't mention it's um. We were on another worthy. That's what I'm saying. No, no, we don't worry. It was a very dignified panel. I was moderating a very dignified panel. He didn't really see Fitz bring it up. Yeah. Hey, another thing, just to add to this growing list of things.

So when you first got onto this recording tonight, we were in the midst of discussing another thing we ebbing love that you've made. And that is that short film called Rachel. We are obsessed and now need to know this is what we were talking about. We were talking about your face at the end of it when you joined us. And then he's like, hi, I hey it's um John's here. So we were like awkwardly embarrassed. But um, so to back it up, yeah. Do you want to give us give our listeners a description of what the short film Rachel is about?

[46:10] John Early: Okay, well, Rachel is let me just contextualize it creatively again to like exert control of the podcast. Rachel came at a time, and I mean she literally like you know, popped into my life, the real Rachel. She came at a time where Kate Berlant and I, my like chief collaborator, we were in just development hell. We had like gone through 16 losses in a row with this like show we made together. Oh shit. And yeah, it sucks. And and we were like, oh, cool. Well, we have we like looked up, we're like, we haven't made anything in three years. And um, and so we were just desperate to make something that wasn't beholden to like the development hell, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, and still are by the way.

But like we so this girl's true story. I just moved to LA. I did a show, I did a stand-up show, and like a bunch of my friends happened to be at that show, and I was like, You guys should come over. And I brought like eight friends over, and like I would say, like five of those friends were my friends, and three of those people were people that knew those friends. It was a very intimate but fun, kind of spontaneous gathering. And we like were drunk, we were like, we were ordering food, whatever. And like there was this one girl there who literally I was like, Well, I don't know her, but I assume she came in with my friend Ellen, who I kind of barely know, you know. Like, it was just I and and we started, and like, like in the short, okay, we'll get there.

Basically, in real life, we all started to piece together, like in in my kitchen, already drunk. We all started to piece together. We're like whispering, we're like, Do you know her? And like we were just no, we realized everyone assumed that she was a friend of a friend, and we were like the process of elimination. We're like, Well, it's not my friend, it's not my friend, it's not my friend. And then literally, it's like a fucking murder mystery. It was so chilling, and then we my friend Sam was like, Well, we she has to leave. And I am such a little southern boy, terrified of confrontation. I was like, No, no, no, no, no. And he was like, What are you talking about? Like, we have to kick her out.

And I was like, it's fine. Like, I was like, I was willing to let this person who intruded into my house. Like, and so then he, but so he took over and he kicked her out, and like she was extremely defensive in a way that was like deeply comedic, like, but also very disturbing. And it was a it was a really kind of scary experience because she started talking about like a band, like music she was hearing, and how she followed the music to my house, and like it was like it was, and what was so crazy is like she was so kind of she fooled us all because she was so like reasonable, yeah. Yeah, she was like, she took her shoes off and she like hopped on the couch, and she was like talking to truly talking to my friend Aaron, being like, Are you a dancer?

Like, literally kept insisting that my friend Aaron was a dancer, and like it was just it was crazy. She seemed like a just kind of LA girl, like who loves candles, you know. It's just like a Margot Kidder waking up in your bed or something. Just like have somebody having a psychotic break and having it at your house.

[49:26] John Early: Yes. And so then we like basically, I was I told Kate about it the next day, and Andy, her boyfriend, who we make a lot of stuff together, the three of us. Andy directed that is her boyfriend. Yeah. My god, what a power couple. I know. Fuck. I know. They're so talented. I know, I know. And uh, but so we I was basically like, you guys, this is we just we gotta make this a short. And Kate, it's Kate is was born to play Rachel. It's exactly her susceptibility. And so we just got we got all of our friends there, like non-actors, basically, everyone who is there, plus my boyfriend. We added him in the mix because he just moved in with me. And so we just and we were like really kind of committed to making it making the short in the way that I used to make shorts, which was like bring all your friends over.

It is a volunteer made film. Yes, it's it's really well done. So it hues pretty closely to the events of the night. Like, I was like, Did she couldn't have possibly been like the band? Like, there's some things that she says that you're just like, no, that's not that couldn't have possibly been real life, but it seems like it hues pretty closely, except at the end when it turns into a ghost story. When she's just gone, yeah, that did not happen. Spoilers. She actually did leave the room. Even though it's not a good one. Even the way that was shot was so masterfully done. Oh my god, that was amazing. She did though go to the bathroom looking, claiming to look for her purse. Like she literally, she's gonna steal your pills.

[51:02] John Early: That's where my mind went.

[51:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[51:04] John Early: And that's what actually happened to us where she was like, we had spent or Sam had spent, and we by the way, we blocked it exactly how it happened.

[51:10] John Early: Like Aaron was sitting in that spot on the couch. And she was in the door frame, like it happens in the short, and Sam was right behind the couch. And like, and so we fully recreated it. And then, like, basically, after like a probably 20 minute confrontation with her, where she was like being extremely defensive and like not and like kind of making us feel like losers for not being like open to her chilling with us, which was like so fucking funny. She literally was like about to and she's like, Oh my god, my purse. And then she went into the bathroom and we were like all kind of trapped in the living room, kind of like, well, at this point, this is a crazy person, and I'm letting her like go into my bathroom, like where there's razors and pills.

[51:56] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[51:57] John Early: Oh my god.

[51:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[51:57] John Early: Oh my god. And then she thank God came out and left. But like we decided to end the short with her.

[52:02] Susan Blackwell: Did she leave with your sweater on?

[52:04] John Early: That is not okay. That's a genius addition because I was like obsessed with is she gonna give that sweater back?

[52:11] John Early: That is John's sweater, and she needs to take it off. Is someone gonna call her out? I fucking loved that.

[52:18] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so question at the very end of the film. I love that we're doing a hot 15 minutes on this film. This this conversation is long. This film is so good, y'all. Pause this and go watch that film. At the very end, there is a tiny slice of what I believe is the actual footage taken that night. One of your friends, who I think is also in the film, pulled out their cell phone and was started to video the confrontation. And there's a teeny tiny slice of her.

[52:37] John Early: Yep.

[52:49] Susan Blackwell: This is the what Camien and I were betting on. Is you when you joined us? When the camera passes over, is it the is Rachel the woman with her back to the camera?

[53:01] John Early: Yep.

[53:02] John Early: You don't show her face.

[53:03] John Early: We don't show her face, but also we don't have any footage of her face. That was that is literally that is the length of the footage we had.

[53:14] John Early: Yeah.

[53:17] John Early: That's all we had of it.

[53:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. Love that film. Amazing.

[53:21] John Early: Thank you.

[53:23] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. So good. Hey, in the course of telling that, you touched on something that we're completely obsessed with. So I'm gonna I'm gonna jump to this question that I I I want to hear you talk about. And that is processing creative failure. Can you talk about one of the biggest like perceived failures or more challenges that you know you mentioned having and how do you process through it? Because everyone has it.

[53:51] John Early: Totally. Well, yeah, my so Kate Berliant and I made this was definitely the biggest one. This is like the this was the most painful one. Yeah. Uh we we made this pilot. Um we had always wanted to make a um kind of abfabby, like really classic friendship show. Um perfect. And it was like it really was it was called This Is Heaven, which isn't I'm so deeply proud of that title. Um, and it was basically us trying to make a kind of like trying to like build a philosoph like we we have a very um kind of gestural friendship. You know, we like we like met and it was like love at first sight, and we were like we've kind of been mythologizing our friendship ever since we became friends. Oh and we're like so like it was about kind of our we tried to make a show about this kind of like this kind of inseparable, like this refusal to part.

Um and like and also we were very excited to make something that was like a gay guy and a straight girl, but it wasn't like caustic, it was like full of love, it was like deeply romantic, and and then we also just wanted to do something that was like kind of like abfab, just like kind of like beautiful and colorful, like Alma Dovar, like really like just like candy and like Romy Michelle, you know, and like and full of these kind of like sketchy, like just really simple premises of like us hosting a dinner party, like us going to a middle school musical, you know, like you know, just like and and and so it it really we we set out to make something that was kind of the most pure expression of our friendship and ourselves and our like worldview, and because of that level, it wasn't just like oh, this is us, here's a situation that works.

Kate's a clerk and I'm our boss. You know, it's like it was like it was much more kind of personal and like it was also much more kind of like open-hearted and stuff we had made, you know. It was like very kind of bright-eyed and innocent, and like, and so when it didn't work out, it was like particularly crushing. But yeah, we just had like many, it like moved to a million different places, so we had to experience the failure like three or four times, and it kind of and it was just like the final one, and also after you experience it multiple times, you get in this mode where you're like, well, it can keep being opened up again. Right, and like the final time when we literally, I had my like managers calling me, like being like, it's over.

Like, and I was like, I like, I was such a wreck. I never thought I would react that way to like a professional thing. But I was like really like, I wasn't sleeping for like a month. I was like just getting up in the middle of the night and like weeping on the couch. Like just even the words you use to describe how much of your selves you put into that. Like that is that it does become deeply personal.

[56:49] John Early: It was very personal. And it was also like, you know, we were setting out to make something that was like the opposite of what we were seeing. We were trying to make something that was like wartime, like for the Trump era, like wartime entertainment, like classic, silly, warm. But like, so it just was like it really felt like they were like stomping on our hearts. And like it was, I we how did we deal with it? I mean, we like it, it's crazy what you'll do. I mean, it is true grief. Like, there was like manic denial, yeah where we were like, we're literally the next day, we're like oh my god, we have an even better idea. Like we were like calling our we called our manager, we were like, we're like, we cracked it, we're actually glad.

We're actually glad I got it. And he was like listen, he like was really sweet and listening to us. Like, oh okay, like sure, you know, because like part of this, you'll die. Like part of what the pr the issue was like everyone was always so worried that it was too rarefied, that it was like the language was too like dense, and that it was too like, which is like very us, like we're posturing, the characters are posturing too, you know, and but like it was always like people thought like it was too like narrow of a kind of like sensibility or something, which is so fucking dumb. And then but like so we literally the next day, and I'm not kidding, the next day we were like, her parents are coal miners. We were like we were like, so it's this whole we can maintain the sensibility, but they're they're they're keeping the sensibility alive in as a response to their kind of rural coal miner.

[58:31] John Early: Oh my god. And our manager was like looking at us like we were fucking crazy. Sweetie, it's done. It's it's done. Stage two. What's up? Yeah, yeah.

[58:44] John Early: Oh my god. So there was the manic denial, and then there was like the anger came in very quickly, and like I am not proud of some like interviews I did where I was like, and where I was very quick to like, and I think that some of this I think there's truth in this. I don't think it's as simple as this, but I do think they that people have a very limited imagination when it comes to like gay characters and and gay friendship, like um, like female, like woman gay guy friendships. Like, I think that people wanted something more recognizable and like kind of like me on grinder and her being like, honey, no, you know, like I think that's what they were expecting from us, and they got something much more kind of like like can't be an anti mame, honestly.

And I think they were like terrified of it. And so I the I do think that's true, but I literally was like on Twitter and I was like, just call me a faggot. Like I was so angry. Like I was like, just go ahead and call me a faggot. Like, and I was like giving all these interviews or was talking about like, yeah, these people these idiots, these executives, you know, and it was like that is something I'm not proud of because I also think there were things that were definitely that I now can only now see some like really like pivotal flaws that like that are so obvious that I like thank God have now learned from, but like I literally was so blinded by love and like passion that I could not see them then.

[1:00:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, of course, yeah, of course, and and I I feel like you sort of answered this earlier, but as a result of all of that, you were you looked in each other's eyes and you were like, we have to get back to making something that is not like gonna be put through this meat grinder process of approvals, exactly.

[1:00:35] John Early: And that's how you came to make Rachel, yeah.

[1:00:37] John Early: And we wanted to make something that felt less like belabored, just like or labored. I don't know. I love to add a b betrothed but uh, but like it was really nice to like just to be like, oh, this thing just this fucking crazy thing just happened to me. Let's get everyone who is there to my house. Let's get drunk and let's and see what happens. And like it was really sweet. The thing that Laura referred to earlier that I didn't want to lose the thread of is when you show the slice of footage at the very end, we we've got on line together, opened up the video and paused it on your face.

[1:01:16] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I was gonna bring this up.

[1:01:18] John Early: Fucking face.

[1:01:19] John Early: Your face, you are so uncomfortable, and the way it's manifesting on your face is amazing.

[1:01:26] John Early: Well, that is the Easter egg within the Easter egg, which is that I am literally unable to look up from the computer. And I have a smile plaster across.

[1:01:36] John Early: I'm smiling ear to ear. It's insane.

[1:01:38] John Early: Oh my god. I was so scared, and I decided to just commit to like pretending to order food.

[1:01:47] Susan Blackwell: That's the new home screen on my phone.

[1:01:49] John Early: It's just like a screen capture of your face.

[1:01:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, it's so good.

[1:01:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, John, we know that we don't have you much longer, so we're gonna ask you some quickies. We're just gonna ask you some rapid vibes. Here we go. Ready? Is there a creative thing you need to do before you're done?

[1:02:06] John Early: Um, is that a euphemism for before I croak?

[1:02:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:02:10] John Early: Or before you come.

[1:02:11] Susan Blackwell: Or pretend you need to do before you're done.

[1:02:15] John Early: Um, yes. I would like to make a kind of um I would like to make a movie or a TV show or mini series that is like that is that aspires to be like something that I like on the level of the things that I love. A la, the comeback enlightened that have that exact kind of thing that you were talking about of the the funny, funny, funny, and then like guts you, and like that that's those are that's everything I aspire to do is like just something like that.

[1:02:47] Susan Blackwell: And I so like a glee, like a like a glee.

[1:02:50] John Early: Exactly. I love that. And I I I was hoping that you would say, like, I I feel like you are longer form film starring directing, writing. I feel like that's gonna happen. Your aesthetic, you have it all. Godspeed to you. Okay.

[1:03:07] John Early: Thank you.

[1:03:08] Susan Blackwell: Next question. John, you've been in the creative business for a while. Give us some good creative advice.

[1:03:14] John Early: Oh well, okay. This is always my advice when I go when I when I give these talks at schools. I'm kidding.

[1:03:21] John Early: Um I do give talks.

[1:03:22] Susan Blackwell: You do.

[1:03:25] John Early: Um if you like.

[1:03:28] Susan Blackwell: And we're gonna tell them exactly what you say now. So make it good.

[1:03:32] John Early: Oh shit. Um well, I I always just, you know, I think creative people, it is your like duty to and you heard the liquid you.

[1:03:50] John Early: I um I think it's I think I feel very like this. May not be true for everyone, but I think people usually people who kind of desire to be creative or like, you know, it's because there's something that you do already naturally in your life. It's not like you're not like crazy, it's not out of nowhere. Like you probably already have an instinct. There's probably something you do with your closest friends. There's probably you know, yeah. And I think what's been I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it was uh it was very important to me early on to like um basically kind of reverse engineer the stuff that I loved, like like I would like I could see like in Eastbound and Down or the Comeback or Enlightened, like these they were around built around these performers who had this like really beautiful, like sweet spot, you know, comedically.

Yeah, and they, but there was also this like interest on their part and on the writers and on the you know people making the show, like an interest in like contextualizing that in a kind of a grand, like psychological way. And like that was like to me, that's always been my like starting point is like what is the thing that I do without any thought? Like, what's the thing that I do when I'm like making my friends laugh at a dinner party? You know, like yeah, and like what were what's the thing that I'm most comfortable doing? And like what's what's my little sweet spot? And then how can I from there create a world that like supports that sweet spot? Who is what does that person look like and what do they do?

And you know, and what what is the kind of perfect dramatic structure that will like heighten that sweet spot and like and yeah, so that's that's I think it's like always just like build your stuff, build your narrative if if you want to be in it at least. You know, if if you're trying to build something around you as a performer, um, but I'm sure this can be you know extrapolated, you know, for other disciplines. But yeah, what yeah, like like start with the thing that you already do, like start with the thing that is like that brings you joy. Starting to do it. It just feels flowing and easy and and you love it, and then work backwards from there.

[1:06:05] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[1:06:06] Laura Camien: So smart.

[1:06:07] John Early: That's good. That's good. Don, you work really fucking hard as far as we can tell. The question is, what's it all for?

[1:06:16] John Early: Oh man, what is it all for? You know, I don't stop to think about that a lot, which is I guess the point of asking the question. I have to go. I'm kidding. Um I have a hard stop. What is it all for? I mean, I think that answer is like changing by the minute. I don't, it's all been pretty kind of compulsive and instinctual for me my whole life. I've never, I don't I haven't, I'm lucky enough to like have grown up with enough kind of support to not spend too much time questioning why I'm doing it or doubting it, you know. So but I think more and more I am like convinced that just um I don't know, we're just I'm looking around at my generation, and I just think we're all just being kind of bludgeoned by Twitter and by the state of the world.

I and I'm fully like strapped to my phone completely. But I think we're just I feel like a boomer saying this, but we're all just becoming less smart, and we have fewer people, fewer and fewer people in the culture to like like there aren't like great public intellectuals, like there aren't like you know, like there's no people aren't like fucking like I don't know, like when I read a book like once every six years, I'm like, oh my god. I'm like, oh, this is what we're meant to be doing. Like your brain is actually meant to be like pulled in one direction and like and not to be so like not meant to be this like atomized and and yeah, refracted as we all are now. So I think now what we do it all for is like to give people a break from like the hellscape of like capitalism. You know, just to like give people like uh truly this is what I believe. And I'm arriving at this in the moment, so I apologize for the long-winded answer.

[1:08:17] Laura Camien: Love it.

[1:08:18] John Early: Take your time. Long wind grandma's house, but it's worth it. Here we go. We're with you. Um, here come grandma's cookies. But I the reason we do it, gang, is because there are so few examples in the world of people doing things um not for money. Like it's just every every single authentic expression gets immediately commodified by capitalism. And so there has to be like this is to me, this is the new like goal for all artists. It's like if you really, really fucking mean it, it's like you have to find a way to make things that don't immediately get absorbed and commodified by capitalism, and like you have to find a way to like resist like try to take money. What would you make if money weren't an issue? But of course that's impossible, but you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, you just have to incoming money's not on the way. Yeah, what do you want to make anyway?

[1:09:18] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[1:09:18] John Early: And that's the stuff I made when I was younger. I made stuff that had nothing to do with like some sort of financial model that would one day like you know, pay off or pay a mortgage. It's like I I that's what I used to do, and I'm trying to kind of you know get back to that, not even out of some like just because the I I just keep looking up and I'm like, oh, no one's making these choices because why would you? It's so easy to just give over to the like the the running, like like raging waters of capitalism.

[1:09:54] Laura Camien: That's a good whatsoever.

[1:09:55] John Early: That was a good one. Um okay, well, I know we have to get you out of here, but before I forget, do you remember when you were filming? I'm so obsessed with this fucking film. When you were filming Rachel, where did Kate go when she disappears? And do you know what I mean? Like, where did the Kate's embody how did she do it? How did she get behind the camera or get out of the way? Or did she sneak out when she's supposedly in the bathroom?

[1:10:18] John Early: How did the such a good question? Um, so she there is a door that we purposely that my dad dealt. Yeah. No, there were there was a door that we avoided shooting. So she went. So the the how or the apartment was actually like a donut. Like you really can do a full circle. Yeah. And so you go through the bathroom into the bedroom and then into this little back room that has a door to the outside. And we avoided shooting that door. So like she went into the bathroom and then quietly tiptoed out and went outside and hid behind that door.

[1:10:55] Susan Blackwell: And then we're amazing. Would you please send our our just infatuated love to Andrew and Kate and all the people that made that beautiful piece of art?

[1:11:08] John Early: I really will. I really will. Okay. And now back on track. Finally, here's the last question. Okay. What or who is sparking you these days?

[1:11:18] John Early: Ooh. Well, the big one, and this is the major, major spark. Like, this has started a kind of um, like it it's there's nothing better, am I right, ladies? Went than when you're like then when you finally are kind of like taken outside of yourself with like an obsession of an artist, you know, like nothing better. Like I was very late to John Waters, like, and that was a br that was like a three-year period of like, oh, I'm devoted my life to him. It's all I thought about or talked about, you know. And now, and I haven't had that in a while because I have by trade, like had to be kind of focused on myself. And so, like, this the recent thing for me has been Deborah Eisenberg, who is the fucking best.

She's Wallace Sean's longtime girlfriend. Yeah. And she is a short story writer. And she I met I I became obsessed with her because my friend Theta is obsessed with Wallace Sean. And we did a I produced a production of Marie and Bruce that Theta played Theta played Marie. Yeah. And Wallace Sean and Deborah Eisenberg came to the goddamn show. Awesome. And just shitting yourself. Just absolutely shitting myself. And they fucking like loved it. And it was like, and they wrote us emails. It was like the sweetest thing in the world. And then Deborah, and then Wally and Deborah both did Search Party season three. And so I got to spend. Yeah, I got to spend like two days on set with Deborah. And like, and I just fell madly in love with her.

And then so I started obsessively reading her work. And I knew Wallace Sean already was very much in my like language. Like there's a there's like he's definitely kind of into writing about like well-meaning liberals who are like as like the world is like falling apart, but they're like, you know, in denial that, you know, whatever. And like, and Deborah, what I was really excited to realize, like she is that is why they're in love. It's like they both kind of write about the same kind of person, and it's very much it very much overlaps with like what me and Kate love, what I love, you know. And so I've read she has like just completely blown my mind, and I've been reading her, and I I read all of her shit over quarantine, and then I like started reading stuff that she has written forwards or afterwards for, like. Like I've just been letting her be my guide to like becoming like into books again, which has been so goddamn nice.

[1:13:53] Susan Blackwell: You will die. You have to read her.

[1:13:56] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:13:57] John Early: Thank you. That's a great spark.

[1:13:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. We'll take that spark.

[1:14:00] John Early: Yes. She's the best. Oh, John Early. I know we have to go, but we want to say thank you so much.

[1:14:08] John Early: Thank you guys. Thank you for thank you. It was an honor to be here. And I've talked so much. I'm so sorry.

[1:14:15] Laura Camien: That is it. This episode of The Spark File was made on Muncie, Lenape, and Seminole Land. And we hope that it put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen to the sound of my voice when I say if there is a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, we hope you'll email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our fancy website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast, subscribe, rate, five-star review it. If you like this podcast, we hope that you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, I don't know, John. What do you say to your critics?

[1:15:01] John Early: What do I say to my critics? I am oh, I mean, this is the big growing edge for me is I've got to be be more open to criticism. Oh. So I listen, there there is a certain kind of criticism. I would say criticism among collaborators in relationships family. That's where I gotta be more open. But I guess like the hostile Twitter critics. Yeah, I say, may you burn.

[1:15:30] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:15:31] John Early: Simple. May you burn.

[1:15:33] Laura Camien: Thanks, Sean. If something tick tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You gotta take it and make it make it.

[1:15:59] John Early: Thank you guys. There was some Java in there. I was really when I bumped into something that inspires me. I dump it in the spark files. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark five. Skyfire. I jump into my spark fire. Let's open up the spark fire.