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[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Spark File, your twice-weekly dose of creative inspiration.

[0:40] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are such good questions, and we do have answers.

[0:56] Laura Camien: We do. A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, you know the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry. We're here to refill it.

[1:12] Susan Blackwell: We are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity. Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast. Or a piece of pottery. Or an album that chronicles a chapter of your life in music. Or a Tony Award-winning stage performance. Or a great big whole life, including a family, a home, a community of artists, and tons of creativity that is built on internal intuition instead of external expectations.

[1:48] Laura Camien: On today's Makersode, we're gonna talk to someone who truly sparks us. And that someone is Karen Olivo.

[1:55] Susan Blackwell: Karen. Welcome to the Spark File.

[2:01] Karen Olivo: Yeah, what's up?

[2:01] Susan Blackwell: Hi Karen.

[2:02] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:03] Susan Blackwell: There's the understatement. That Karen Olivo's signature understatement that I love. Karen, we're so happy that you're joining us today. I have wanted to have this conversation with you literally for years and I'm so thrilled it's happening.

[2:16] Laura Camien: Before we dive in, it's time for the Spark File price of admission. Real quick, can you tell us a creative risk that you have taken recently?

[2:25] Karen Olivo: Well I'm not really sure when this is gonna air, but by the time this airs probably that risk will have just been taken, which is I'm vowing to no longer work with any organization that would knowingly fund hate or inequality.

[2:43] Karen Olivo: So that's across the board in any capacity whatsoever and for me to work for any of those organizations I'll need to see some form of equality audit, some form of receipt.

[2:43] Laura Camien: Oh, equality control.

[2:43] Karen Olivo: I like that.

[2:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so that is unbelievable. I have like a thrill running through my body and when you said that my mouth like popped open and no sounds could come out. That is amazing. That's fantastic. That's some action.

[2:43] Karen Olivo: Yeah, it's kind of the only thing you can do, right?

[2:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I fucking love that. You know, as a maker, the thing that I have to give is my art. And so if I withhold it, then hopefully we can force people to really enact change.

[3:40] Karen Olivo: And also, you know, the money, the money. It's like the money is going into places that we need to be able to track at this point. So I'm not gonna make you millions of dollars on a Broadway stage so that you can then funnel it into an organization that means to do me harm in the end.

[3:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's right.

[3:58] Susan Blackwell: God damn.

[3:59] Laura Camien: Yes.

[4:00] Susan Blackwell: That's fucking awesome. I'd say you're officially admitted into the Spark File.

[4:04] Laura Camien: Fuck yes, Karen.

[4:06] Karen Olivo: Sweet.

[4:07] Susan Blackwell: Sweet. You're in. You're totally in.

[4:09] Laura Camien: That was easy.

[4:12] Susan Blackwell: Well, that was honestly one of the more, I think that's the completely unique as far as creative risks that we've heard from people.

[4:20] Laura Camien: I hope more people start answering that question with that. That's a big bold creative.

[4:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh, so good.

[4:26] Laura Camien: So good. So as we know, these are complex times to say the least. And we're all experiencing a lot of rapid change. So let's start with this little three-part question. Where are you right now? How are you right now? And in this rapidly changing world, what's top of mind for you today?

[4:46] Karen Olivo: Um, yeah, so I guess top of mind is this vow and this initiative that I'm sort of taking on because it impacts, you know, my team, the people that make their money from me, meaning my manager and my agent and publicist and people of that nature.

[5:08] Karen Olivo: That being said, where I am currently physically, I'm sitting in my basement studio at my desk, where I teach and where I make art. I also I'm also a visual artist, so that this is also a place where that stuff happens.

[5:29] Karen Olivo: And how am I? I'm actually feeling very inspired today, which is different from most days where I feel like the train has left the station and I need to figure out a way of getting to my destination on my own.

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: Um, but that's it. So, Karen, for people who are just meeting you for the first time, this is a two-part question. Part one, creatively speaking, when people ask you, what do you do? How do you answer?

[5:53] Karen Olivo: I feel like you're the kind of person that really does contain creative multitudes. So how do you answer that question?

[6:00] Karen Olivo: So I usually say that I'm an artist in different capacities and a teacher. Cause I've written for theater. There are times that I've made physical pieces of art for people, custom pieces of art. Sometimes I act as a bit of a sounding board for other artists.

[6:26] Karen Olivo: And then the other bigger part of me being an artist is that I teach, I teach baby artists who be big artists.

[6:35] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[6:36] Laura Camien: I love it. And are you doing a bunch of teaching now in this virginal age? Are you how are you teaching and what are you teaching them and what can you teach us?

[6:46] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I'm actually starting a summer school course tomorrow with the Madison School District. I'm teaching, I've entitled it Art Appreciation, but truthfully, what it is to reflect the times, I'm going back and using musical theater pieces of art to explain racism.

[7:11] Karen Olivo: And to, you know, it's a predominantly white area where I live. There are not a lot of minorities, and so it's sort of I'm tiptoeing into the world of basically song interpretation and empathy because there's a lot of components of empathy that I mean actors are like the OG, like we've basically branded empathy.

[7:37] Laura Camien: That's what we do.

[7:38] Karen Olivo: Yeah. And so for these kids to really get inside some of these characters, they have to see it from a very different perspective, which they probably have not been exposed to.

[7:47] Karen Olivo: So we're working on, I think it's a five-week course, four-week course. And I'm teaching.

[7:53] Laura Camien: Fantastic.

[7:56] Laura Camien: And will you be assigning them things or will you be asking them to select material that is somehow like how do you how specifically will you be expanding their empathy with this curriculum?

[8:09] Karen Olivo: So I usually work, there's a technique that I use, which is an Eric Morris technique. He's an acting teacher that was based out of LA in the 70s. He uses a lot of personalization and being states, so it's basically using what you know in life and experiences that you have to bring to characters.

[8:32] Karen Olivo: And so I've chosen a handful of things from musicals that talk about racism. So I'm using some pieces from Fiddler, and I'm using some pieces from South Pacific because those are the two more classical pieces that these kids will probably have known.

[8:48] Karen Olivo: Most kids have done, like Fiddler Jr., Fiddler, you know, South Pacific, the junior version, at some point. And so I want it to be something that they've already experienced.

[9:01] Karen Olivo: And then I'm sort of assigning key parts. And so using it sort of as a point of entry, like a familiar, maybe comfortable point of entry to get into some more challenging expansion.

[9:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, I mean, I think Fiddler is a wonderful show because it talks about the family unit. We all have a family, whether or not we like them, that's another thing, but it talks about traditions of different families, and so we're gonna sort of use the template of what they are doing and their struggles and have kids sort of look at the similarities and the differences, and then try to approach it from a place of them becoming using their own life experience of what it means to be in a family and to need the approval of your father, and to also follow your heart and your own individuality, and then sort of funneling that into the framework that discusses racism.

[10:04] Laura Camien: Is that too much for high school students? I just said that out loud, and I'm like, is that too much?

[10:08] Karen Olivo: I think you're right on time.

[10:10] Laura Camien: And as I listen to you speak, it you, something I've known about you for a long time and enjoyed very much is that you truly you have the heart of an artist and you have the heart of a teacher.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: My God, do you have the heart of a teacher?

[10:25] Laura Camien: Which I love. Um wait, there was two parts to that question I was asking you for one.

[10:31] Susan Blackwell: We covered. What creative work are you most well known for?

[10:36] Karen Olivo: Uh, I would say that I'm most well known for winning the Tony Award for West Side Story, The Revival.

[10:44] Laura Camien: I don't know. What do you, I mean, it's hard for me to say what I think I'm most well known for.

[10:49] Karen Olivo: You've done so many things.

[10:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[10:51] Karen Olivo: Yeah.

[10:52] Karen Olivo: That's like a, but I guess that's a trick. That's a trick question because there's no way for me to because I'm inside.

[10:57] Karen Olivo: I know what I, what people tell me.

[10:59] Susan Blackwell: You're right.

[11:00] Karen Olivo: You know?

[11:01] Susan Blackwell: You're right.

[11:01] Karen Olivo: It's a trick question.

[11:02] Susan Blackwell: That's the kind of hard-hitting journalism that gotcha journalism that I'm famous for.

[11:08] Karen Olivo: But I can imagine what you're not our only guest that we've talked to who has this, where I bet when people approach you, it's anybody's guess what's going to come out of their mouth when they say, Oh my God, Karen, you don't know me, but I loved you in fill in the blank.

[11:26] Laura Camien: Like I bet there's a lot, there's a lot of things that it's just dealer's choice, what's gonna come out.

[11:31] Karen Olivo: That is true. I've gotten a lot of, oh, weren't you the girl on Law and Order whose kid got sick?

[11:38] Laura Camien: Yes.

[11:39] Karen Olivo: Right.

[11:39] Karen Olivo: And the last couple of weeks.

[11:41] Karen Olivo: Um actually I should say every time I would go before, you know, the pandemic, every time I would go to the airport and I would go to Florida, I would get stopped in the airport by elderly people and they would say, Oh my god, you're the lawyer from Harry's Law, because they all love Harry's Law.

[11:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:58] Karen Olivo: I was on a show with Kathy Bates. Everybody loved Kathy Bates.

[12:02] Laura Camien: Yeah, so I would always get that.

[12:04] Karen Olivo: Um, and then, but just more recently, I've had a lot of students come up to me and say, You taught me at XYZ.

[12:12] Laura Camien: And I'm like, Yeah, I love that.

[12:14] Karen Olivo: That's gotta feel really good.

[12:16] Karen Olivo: Yeah, because they're, I mean, I didn't screw them up because if they're coming back to say I...

[12:16] Laura Camien: They're not walking up to you and just like confronting you or smacking your face.

[12:28] Karen Olivo: That has gotta feel good.

[12:29] Karen Olivo: That's right.

[12:29] Susan Blackwell: So, Karen, one of the many things we admire in you is your decision to forge your own creative career and life path.

[12:40] Susan Blackwell: In a wow, look at this journalism. I'm gonna quote another journalist. In 2018, an interview in The Ledger, you said, I kind of broke the mold of what an artist is supposed to do to have a successful career.

[12:55] Karen Olivo: And that ended up being the right move for me. I don't have to be incredibly rich, I don't have to be on everyone's TV all the time. I don't have to be a name everyone knows. I just have to make good art.

[13:07] Laura Camien: Can you talk to us about what and how you decided to make a change and what that looked like?

[13:14] Karen Olivo: Uh yeah, I mean, there were a lot of things about commerce and art that did not make sense to me from a very young age.

[13:25] Karen Olivo: Um, and when I started becoming a maker of art in all of these different capacities, I realized that when I would get paid, things got weird.

[13:38] Laura Camien: And so...

[13:39] Karen Olivo: That's so fucking interesting.

[13:41] Karen Olivo: The things that sort of pushed me away from, I guess doing the thing that I saw everyone else doing was that I've always operated from this gut instinct. You know, my stomach usually tells me when something feels right or when I'm about to be in flow.

[14:04] Karen Olivo: And so being really young and not having a lot of training, I learned to sort of guide myself through that. And so as I got further into my career, I started noticing that I was feeling out of flow more than I was feeling in flow.

[14:18] Karen Olivo: And usually it involved when I would start doing work that there was more money involved.

[14:26] Karen Olivo: And uh and then I thought well I want to, I'm not gonna stop making art, but I need to sort of figure out what it is about this that does not gel with me as a person. And so I pulled away and I moved you know off the coast I had been bi-coastal before and I started looking at um the components of Karen that uh that without her her resume and without her career those things that I'd I'd sort of overlooked and I sort of filled my own sort of uh my my artistic well was filled with just living life and being a human being on this earth. And then when I decided to go back I waited for a tug in my stomach. I waited for that feeling of you have to make art now you have something to say. And then I I try to operate in that sort of vein of listening to my stomach always knowing that if I decided to pull away for any reason because it felt unsafe or it felt like I was not being true to my art that I would still sort of exist and I would be fine because that's the thing that most artists probably want to operate from their gut that's right. They want to be organic but that money that money keeps going the money and then that's gonna help me like that's gonna help me figure out who I am later but first I need to have that pile of money.

[15:47] Laura Camien: Um, what can I'm so curious to know? Like, did do you remember who even or how you learned who taught you what flow was, or how to identify, like, oh, this is the preferred state of being. Because I just think you it's it took such bravery and boldness to say, I'm gonna go take myself and figure this out. Uh, did anyone sort of lead that charge, support you? Was there someone whose life course you were like, ah, I'm gonna emulate that? I don't know. I'm just so curious because I think it takes so much to just decide that you're gonna do that.

[16:27] Karen Olivo: Um, I would say that my dad was a very big uh influence on me very young. Um he was a he's a visual artist and works on lots of different mediums. Um but one of the things that I noticed as a child was that uh when he would work, he would kind of go into like this trans light state. Uh-huh. He would sort of like you'd be talking to him and he just couldn't hear you. And um, and then knowing as a child, watching him work and the things that he could come up with, I learned pretty young. Like, if if I say his name twice and he's not listening, I gotta wait because he's making something really special. God bless. So that in, and then you know, I I was not a visual art. I always had like art lessons because he would give them to me for free.

But when I decided to be a performer, um, there were a handful of times that I would feel this thing. Um, you know, it feels like uh it almost feels like a spiritual experience where uh you're like someone puts on a Karen suit. Like I sort of vacate my body and something else is operating the arms and the legs and making the choices, and I would be able to have this sort of out-of-body experience where I would notice that I was performing, but I had nothing to do with it and how incredible that was. And then I would kind of get yanked back in. Uh-huh. Um, and then I was like, oh, that must be fucking flow. Because I've heard people talk about that, where you're just like, you're going with it.

You're not, you're not manifesting anything in the sense that you're you're you're not manipulating a moment, you're not manipulating the art to go into any direction. You're sort of allowing it to do what it does. That's fucking amazing.

[18:12] Laura Camien: I'm just sitting here and listening to you and thinking how um I don't want to over-romanticize it, but how amazing to have a parent who is modeling something like that. I don't I'm so glad you asked that question, Laura, because I don't think I even knew or had any exposure to anything like that until I don't know, I was 40 or so. Like, I really don't know if I I that's so fucking fascinating. Yeah, I think that you could identify this is that that trance like state that my dad was in. Um I I don't know, I just I'm I'm amazed by that. Cause yeah, I didn't have that either. It took a long time to figure out what it was, and probably like through college, people talking about it and then eventually me experiencing it. I'm like, oh, that's what they were talking about. Um, but not so much witnessing it in anyone else.

[19:09] Karen Olivo: It also reminds me of something you and I were having a conversation, Karen, where you were talking about sometimes uh if you're doing say you're starring in a Broadway show, and there's a lot like you're getting your costume changed, you're getting your wig changed, and it's like uh that's a lot of people touching me kind of feeling. But I when you said that, I was like, Oh, I think that might be your introversion talking. But now that you say what you just said, I think it might be you're in a flow state, ideally, and all of that could feel disruptive.

[19:46] Karen Olivo: Well, I think that there's also like this thing, you know, when you're doing a Broadway show, there's because there's so much repetition, you understand your existence almost um in a meter, you know. Um, because you know, in musicals, costume changes are timed. There's there's only a certain amount of there's a only a handful of bars of music that you have for the scene change. So everything is is almost there's a metronome happening at all times. And so a lot of times people talking or people tugging can literally yank you out of your time. And so I try to be, I try to be really sensitive to that, because once you lose it, you end up spending the rest of the performance trying to get back on track, and therefore you cannot be in flow.

[20:34] Laura Camien: Yes, you can't I really feel like the muse won't come if she sees that you're in distress. Like you have to be open and prepared and like eyes wide open and sort of like, come on, I'm here. But if you're running all over the place and you're not focused, she's like I'll swing back around when you're ready.

[20:55] Karen Olivo: Do you feel like you can consistently access that? Um, I wouldn't say that um I'm always striving for it, but I do know I the I know so little about it, in the sense that I don't know how to um truly manifest it, but I do know the things that will take me away from getting there. So there are there are roadblocks that I've experienced in the past over and over again. Um just negative programming or even a specific person's energy, um, uh uh a routine that um that is not good for mental health right before I decide to make art. And so I've been able to eliminate those over time. But as far as like being able to like flip a switch, I think that's the great thing about being an artist is that you really have to sort of be open to the open and primed for that other thing to show up. Uh it's it's uh ephemeral, it's not a good thing.

[22:05] Laura Camien: But it sounds like you've like done your best to learn over time, like lots and lots of learning over time about what works for you to set that stage, whether it's you're gonna do time in your art studio or you're gonna go be the lead in a Broadway show and carry that on your shoulders, that you've you've worked to kind of learn how to step set the stage as best as possible to invite that flow in.

[22:34] Karen Olivo: Absolutely. I mean, I think that there's also, you know, anyone who's really good at what they do or they make, it takes hours and hours of figuring out not just like the practical aspects of what it is that you're trying to create, like in my like the the practicing of you know the vocal warmups to make sure that my voice is pliable or a stamina. Like those are like the the components that everyone is gonna have to work on. But there's a very there's a much more personal level to making art that if you don't know yourself in that vein that it doesn't matter how long you spend in the practice room or how hard you work at doing something that's very technical, you won't be able to reach success because you haven't sort of made that connection to the other you know that sort of spiritual realm that I think we usually work in. And so there's just hours and hours of me doing the wrong thing I guess spiritually that keeps the art in this really stagnant immediate peak flow.

[23:35] Laura Camien: What are some of the things that you like how are you structuring your life what practices are you putting like consistently implementing to get you there?

[23:49] Karen Olivo: I work a lot on repetition. So because and it's partly because of the work that I do. So um my day has a little bit of repetition and I don't try to uh also because I'm an empath I try not to come in contact with too many people for each stage because I I get those people sort of drag yeah I drag them around the rest of the day and that's like not great. For a while it's really funny um this is like total this is sort of weird but I started watching um the tell us more and um, I was I was basically watching it because I was trying to give myself some sort of like break from watching the news. And while I was doing a show, I was watching it, and I would notice that I would get to the theater and I would be speaking.

[24:50] Karen Olivo: The Scottish Lilt. Um English. Yeah. And luckily, my in the show, I'm I speak in a heightened sort of uh accent. So it it sort of it, I think for most people it looked like I was getting ready. But I noticed, I noticed that it was one of the things that I had to actually remove from my routine before I could watch it after the show, but I couldn't watch it before. That's just fascinating.

[25:23] Laura Camien: So repetitive practices work for you, which reminds me of what you're talking about, like that metronome, that rhythm of that, and also knowing what what's gonna work and knowing what you're gonna have to enjoy later so it can you like you can get a full night's sleep and it can burn off and then you can start a fresh day.

[25:42] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Oh, outlander. Um like seven years is that in deciding to structure your life and your career and your creativity in a way that was really attuned with your intuition. I believe that you shine a light for others to follow no matter what their form of creativity is. And I I feel like that that light is made up of multiple parts. But one is that it's okay to change your choice, you don't have to continue to follow a path because of a choice you made as a younger person, and that really it is okay to take what you've learned and build new choices that suit the person you are now. And also that you don't have to follow the path that others have consistently taken. You can really get quiet and determine what works for you and what doesn't work for you and follow your own North Star.

[26:41] Laura Camien: It's one of the reasons I was so when you gosh, was it in 2013 when you were like, I'm choosing something different? Like I've had all of the success, I've been lauded and awarded for that, and I'm gonna choose something different. I don't, I don't even think you knew like how much that would seize people's imaginations when you did that. Like people really got super interested in that choice.

[27:10] Karen Olivo: And I think it's because it was shining the light on a different possibility that had not even occurred to people before. Yeah. I mean, I think in our industry it sort of made a bit of a splash, but um, yeah, I mean, I guess that's years and years, and because I wasn't a trained actor before or a performer, a lot of my stuff, uh you know, a lot of the things that I did were um, like I said before, in intuitive. Um I think that they're the sort of it's hard to say. I don't want to say like I hit the pause button because then that would sort of that means that I'm not sort of moving, and I felt like I started moving at a rapid rate. Once I decided to take the blockage away, you know.

[28:01] Karen Olivo: Um, but you know, in it for me, it feels like my relationship to what I do in being a creator is like all relationships in which you look at that person and you decide whether or not this is working today. You know, and after year one and after year five, you have to keep checking in and acknowledging that you're changing and how does this best fit me and how can we keep moving forward? Um and then along the lines of like just being a teacher, you know, the one thing that when I teach young kids to do what I do, what they really forget a lot of the times is that uh their uniqueness and the way that their perspective of the world is the thing that is going to make them successful because they only have it. That's no one else can touch it.

[28:52] Karen Olivo: Yeah, for sure. And so it sort of makes sense that I would go with something that was fitting to me and me alone. Uh, because that's kind of what I teach kids.

[29:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, that makes sense.

[29:05] Karen Olivo: You know, it's just striking me right now, like as I listen to you talk, you have such a confidence and an ownership of the word artist. And when you say you are an artist, everything about that feels authentic. Um, I just wonder, like I'm projecting myself onto this, I admit, but when you made that choice, I do wonder if other people were like, I can't, like leaving the city or leaving this whatever this ladder I'm climbing, this industry I, uh, the way I thought it was supposed to be, would that mean I'm not an artist? Like if I step out of this, am I still an artist? And it doesn't strike me that that question even entered your mind, which is so inspiring.

[30:00] Karen Olivo: Well, I think it has to do with the fact that I'm definitely like my dad being an artist and being a person of color as an artist when he was coming into making art professionally. Uh, one of the things that I was always hyper aware from his perspective was the socialization of what artists are. Um, you know, the framework of commerce and art doesn't work unless those signing the checks put you in a category and keep you there and show you that you can only be what they tell you you can be. And for my parent, I saw a different way of doing it because he was told always that he couldn't. So he wasn't even invited to the table. So the only way for him to make art in the way that most artists have to, because it's habitual and it's instinctive, was to forget the framework in its entirety and to exist outside of the framework.

[31:04] Laura Camien: That just gave me chills.

[31:05] Karen Olivo: Yeah, that's you. And the thing that strikes me about all of this is it seems like you made this decision to just, I'm restating in a different way what you have been stating, but that you made a decision to just keep moving towards the things that actually, um, in your gut lifted you up, that you were genuinely curious about, that brought you joy that you intuited could bring you, um, real creative gratification. And I feel like you're moving to Madison, moving towards love, moving towards a home and a family and space to have an art studio and things like that. It all feels in attunement with that.

[31:55] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I mean, I should also state that I mean, I didn't, I had read some things somewhere about like some of the great painters, um, like Picasso and like the about how they would go through these periods of just unplugging on their own. Like they'd paint, you know, their blue period, and then they'd go and they'd get drunk for like two years in a chateau, roam around drunk and you know what I mean? They did this because they knew that the output could had to be sort of replenished.

[32:28] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[32:29] Karen Olivo: And I love the idea of ease and sort of the ownership of this sort of this is my vessel, and I can't, like I can't run it into the ground. And I can't just keep pouring out and out and out and out. And this is exactly what it looks like from the outside. It may feel different from the inside, but from the outside, it looks like you have this life where you have great community, great family, uh, great replenishment. And then when things really move you, really move you, you'll be like, yeah, I'll go to Chicago and you know, play a principal role in Hamilton. Yeah, I'll go star in a Broadway show and carry that on my shoulders. But from a place of real replenishment.

[33:17] Laura Camien: Yeah, pretty smart. I want to ask a question about this moment we're in right now. Um, it feels like like so many people, Suzanne and I included, are really trying to look at the future, how will it take shape? How can we help to, um, imagine how it should take shape and move towards that like proactively. We're curious to know like how is this time and this place in the world that we're living in right now impacting your creativity.

[33:54] Karen Olivo: Well, um, you know, it's interesting I had, I've had many conversations with some of my mentors in the last couple of weeks, um, since you know, the riots have begun, um, and a lot of, you know, doing a lot of research and reading of my own, um, reading White Fragility by Robin D'Angelo and like really sort of doing some deep dives on Jane Elliott. And what I realized was that, uh, I was, there was a part of me, you know, I work in a very commercial level of the art industry. You know, um, I don't do a lot of fringe work not because I don't want to, but because you know, because I work so infrequently I kind of have to make it count. It really do. But one of the things that I was sort of noticing is that, uh, I was operating in this, uh, let's say, I mean I used the word before but I guess it's the best word, a socialized place.

Like I'd been told that I could do so many things, and I'd be so used to being the token person in the room that it, you know, it become normalized for me. And so a lot of my conversations with some of my mentors involved me taking this perspective of, oh, I should have been a better ally. And being a two-time, you know, marginalized person myself, a woman and a woman of color, you would think that I would immediately sort of like sit on the other side and be like, how can you still be doing this to us? Um, but I really did take another position. And in doing so, um, you know, my mentor was like, you're acting like you're a white person in this industry, and you're not. And I, it blew my mind that I was like, oh, wait, you're right.

Like, I'm not, I'm also part of, I'm a, I'm a part of the problem, but I'm also being marginalized. And so this time has sort of proved to me that if I don't do more education of my, uh, of the obvious issues, but um, education involving what actually happened to me over these 20 plus odd years. And I don't identify these key moments in which, um, I wasn't a good ally or I was marginalized and I brushed it off because that's just the business, that I would never really be able to be an active part of the movement. I wouldn't be able to truly put all of my focus, uh, into this. And so for most for you, for whoever it is that's listening, I think that there's two things, right? There's so there's like the obvious education of the system that we're operating within, and then what is your part specifically, and then creating for yourself, um, a group of people that will be able to hold you accountable. Um, which is, you know, um, that has actually been very difficult. Um, there are plenty of people who want to hold me accountable, but just like really understanding what I need to ask them for.

[37:13] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[37:21] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Because that is, have I done that? Well, I'm just wondering, have you figured it out at all or have any insight on that? Like for those of us who are thinking right now, I need an accountability group.

[37:35] Karen Olivo: Um, well, you know, usually it's someone who, uh, is probably not an African American person right now because they're dealing with something that is, uh, it's truly hard for me to, um, I don't have the capacity to understand that. Um, sometimes it's a, it's another mar part partially marginalized person, um, whether it be because of gender or, um, uh, another person of color or another person who's dealt with, you know. So almost like an affinity group of discussion partners that somebody who's got the bandwidth.

[38:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.

[38:16] Karen Olivo: Um, you're asking them to like call you out on things to challenge you to learn more.

[38:25] Laura Camien: What are you asking of them specifically?

[38:27] Karen Olivo: A little bit of all of that. Yeah, a little bit of all of that. So, like share with me your resources. Um, when I do interact with you, hold me to, uh, these standards, these new standards that we're learning about. Mm-hmm. Um, from now on, uh, when you feel microaggressions, uh, I'm the person that you can talk to, and vice versa.

[38:50] Laura Camien: Wow.

[38:51] Karen Olivo: Right. If you're none, if you're not sure, that's the other thing, you know, about people who have been marginalized. Sometimes it's so normalized that something happens and you can't really put your, you're like, that didn't feel right, but you can't, it's you can't focus on it because you're just so used to it. So being able to have a safe person that you can go to and say, hey, did this is what happened. Is that what I think it is? Um, really just creating community that talk about race and inequality regularly because we obviously haven't been doing that enough. And I know it's, uh, it's dark and it can sometimes almost seem negative to some people, but when I think about, you know, the people in my life who are suffering because of the state of our world, I think, well, that's the least that I can do is sit in this uncomfortability.

[39:47] Laura Camien: Yeah, there's a lot of different definitions of creativity, but the one that we sort of use is applied imagination that fights for the powers of good. And what you're talking about creating really, you know, if the question is, how is this time impacting your creativity? What an amazing piece of creativity that is to set about creating a discussion group, an affinity group, an accountability group, yeah, so that the conversation and that work can be ongoing. That's fucking amazing.

[40:20] Karen Olivo: Yeah, that's incredible. I love that. So, Karen, we're obsessed with this scholar researcher named Meta Wagner, and we're obsessed with her five creative types. We all contain a blend of the following, but we're curious which you would say best describes your creative driver. So here they are. The A-lister. You live to make an audience laugh or cry, and you love applause and adoration. The artisan, you become so immersed in your creative work, you lose all track of time and space, kind of like you were describing with your dad. The game changer, you thrive on breaking boundaries and crashing conventions, the sensitive soul. You need to express yourself, and you hope your art will help others. And the activist, you have a fiery desire to write wrongs and change the world with your art. Do any of those jump out at you as your creative driver?

[41:14] Karen Olivo: I was gonna go, I mean, definitely no for the first one.

[41:17] Laura Camien: Um, that makes sense to me.

[41:20] Karen Olivo: I actually wrote nope. Nope. No, thank you. Um, the artisan, I, I have an issue. I don't know if it's a clinical issue, but I do not understand time the way that I would assume normal people do. I struggle with it all the time. But I don't, I don't think that that is, um, I don't think that that would be it. I, I want to go with probably the activist because one of my, I have a friend who one time she, we were in the middle of some sort of debate involving, you know, our union or something, and she was like, you're like, uh, you're like, uh, would you call me Norma Rae?

[42:06] Laura Camien: Great.

[42:08] Karen Olivo: Wow. We're gonna need you.

[42:09] Laura Camien: We're gonna need you, Norma Rae.

[42:11] Karen Olivo: That's right. That's great. Karen, another topic that we're obsessed with on this podcast is processing creative failure or perceived failure. Um, we're wondering if you would be willing to share one of your perceived failures or challenges that you've faced and how you processed through it.

[42:34] Karen Olivo: Yeah. So yeah, one of my biggest, I would say professional failures would probably be, uh, or what I perceive to be, uh, would be the Carnegie Hall concert that I was a part of. Uh, there was a, there were three of us. There were three of us that were, we were asked to recreate Judy Garland's famed, um, concert. Oh my god, I knew within like, uh, I had like a year to prepare for it, and I was, um, you know, playing Carnegie Hall is a big deal for pretty much anyone, right? Um, so I, and I also struggle in those settings, like concert settings, because I'm such, I'm someone who needs story, and I'm also someone who's, oh my god, yes.

[43:24] Karen Olivo: I need something, I need someone to play off of, and an orchestra behind you is not that thing. Do you not understand how people excel in those formats? And some people really do. Oh yeah. So I mean, I prepared for a year to do it, and then when I took this stage, I realized that the entire time that I had been working, I had uh I'd been operating from I'd been acting as if I was prepared to do it. And I'd been acting as if I felt like I deserved it. I deserved the opportunity to be on Carnegie Hall stage. Did this come to you like at a moment, this realization? Oh, yeah. It was when I opened my mouth to sing the very first note. I felt Jesus Christ. Yeah, I felt the floor sort of uh drop out from underneath me, and I felt like I was like 10 years old.

Oh my god. And so that entire evening was one of the most horrifying experiences of my life because I was unable to really stay in the moment because the only thing I could hear was my heart beating and this sort of like this uh this overwhelming sense of uh you're a fraud, you you shouldn't even be here. Look at like showing me what I was doing incorrectly momentarily. Oh God, while you're doing it. Yeah, while I was doing it. And um, I guess the big takeaway from that, what I feel is my most epic failure, was I walked away and then I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, did I fail on my own on that? Like, what is it that because you we don't make art by ourselves, our experiences and the environment, everything sort of bleeds into the work that we do, and I was like, what what is mine and what is and what was aided?

And I realized that I had done enough of the actual book work, but what I had not done was the preparation of Karen. You know, I hadn't I hadn't done enough of my own sort of self-uh worth work, yeah. Yeah, like on your deserve levels and oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I also had I'd surrounded myself with people who were trying to take rather than give. And so it really sort of uh it opened my eyes to some relationships that I needed to end and um things that I needed to not let happen again for me to actually make art.

[46:02] Laura Camien: How long ago was this, Karen?

[46:05] Karen Olivo: Oh, right after, let's see, uh right after I just won the Tony, I think. Someone two, but right before you decided to move to the Midwest.

[46:17] Laura Camien: That that is the most that is one of the most harrowing stories I have ever heard. Uh to have that lightning strike you as you open your mouth to sing an entire evening of music at Carnegie Hall.

[46:31] Karen Olivo: Mm-hmm. I can argue I'm I'm imagining what was happening in your body was a dose of adrenaline and a dose of cortisol, which feels like green poison to me. Holy fucking.

[46:46] Laura Camien: Did it feel like the evening was in slow motion, like it couldn't go fast enough or not?

[46:56] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Oh no. With a costume change, mind you.

[47:00] Laura Camien: Um sure, it's Carnegie Hall. You gotta costume change.

[47:03] Karen Olivo: Yeah. Um how did you heal from that?

[47:07] Karen Olivo: Uh, well, I I was thrust under the blanket of shame for quite some time. And I uh I vowed to never do a concert again. Um, and I just sort of luckily I had a show that I knew very well that I could go back to. Because I mean, something like that can really sort of turn you off of life performing forever.

[47:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:30] Karen Olivo: Um but luckily I had that in my back pocket that I knew what I was doing when I would step on the stage in West Side Story. Yep. Um repetition. Yeah. Truthfully, I don't think that I'm completely over it. Like I can't listen to recordings of it because I am thrust into a sense that sense memory in such a way that my body starts to shake and I start to smoke.

[47:53] Laura Camien: That makes sense to me. Cause it that what you're describing and uh CamS, have you experienced something? I know I have, but have you experienced something like that before?

[48:01] Laura Camien: I don't think we've ever talked about it.

[48:03] Karen Olivo: Not on the level of Carnegie Hall, but yes, in a moment.

[48:06] Laura Camien: But it doesn't have to be Carnegie Hall.

[48:07] Karen Olivo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for sure, that's how I knew the time scale. It's always Carnegie Hall, baby.

[48:14] Laura Camien: No, absolutely I think that's why I'm I'm like laughing slash crying through it because uh all of it felt so real. And and that's why I asked the question about time, because I'm like, why do I suspect time slowed way down? And it was like I can't get through this fast enough because it's miserable. What I'm feeling is misery and I just want it to end. But yes, I so yeah, I have had those experiences. I mean, luckily not many, but yeah.

[48:43] Karen Olivo: Yeah, those those experiences that I have had have been so career changing that I am I'm impressed and I'm proud of you, Karen, because you continue to make your living doing this. There's also something about, and I don't know if this played into your experience, a one night only shot out of a candle.

[49:06] Laura Camien: Yeah. Is there any part of you that wants like, could I have a do over at some point? Or maybe I would want to be a concert at some point. Just wondering.

[49:21] Karen Olivo: You know, there, I guess that there maybe early on, I was like, you know, I have to sort of like tick that back on. Yeah. Yeah. But what I what I have known about myself since that is that when I do when I perform in that concert sort of arena, I don't find enjoyment in it. And so fuck that shit.

[49:42] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's it. You don't need it. You don't need to come back. That doesn't have to be in your creative portfolio. Fuck that shit.

[49:49] Karen Olivo: Yeah. I love that. I like if there's anything to take away, it's that. Like if if you're not enjoying it, what is that? Like basically fuck that voice that's like um you have to be good at every single type of performance if you're a performer. And no, you don't. You and you don't have to enjoy every type. You can actually just focus on the ones that bring you uh, you know, joy and happiness, and that's it.

[50:18] Laura Camien: Yeah. Right?

[50:19] Karen Olivo: Yeah, yeah.

[50:20] Laura Camien: Karen, I never knew that story. That chills me to the bone, and I feel you so deeply. You've been in this creativity business for a good long while. Do you have some good creative advice for us and for our listeners?

[50:32] Karen Olivo: Uh you know what I actually I was gonna say no, and then I just realized as I look at my studio, I have so many different things that I'm um that I'm not really good at in the art world. Like I'm not really, I'm really, really bad at like watercolor, and um I'm pretty good with charcoal. Um, and when it comes to crafty stuff, I can do this or I can do that. But what I think is been really helpful for me is that I'm really good at one thing, which I know is performing live, but I keep sort of uh injecting other forms just to sort of like maintain humility and to also keep my brain in that like that student place.

[51:20] Laura Camien: So I'm screwed mindset, yes.

[51:20] Karen Olivo: Yes, yes.

[51:24] Laura Camien: So I would say just keep doing that, like keep and also like the failures. I mean, that Carnegie Hall story is it's horrifying, but like I wouldn't change it because I learned more in that moment. And so every time I pick something up and I'm I'm shit at it, I'm like, good, okay, cool. Okay. So we can spend a couple more hours trying to do do this right, or um, you can just know that you're just not good at that. It's similar though to what you said about like um sitting in the the uncomfortability of something. And uh learning a new skill is often like that's the barrier to entry. People will feel I don't like how I feel uncomfortable because I don't know what I'm doing. Um being okay with that for a while uh is actually what allows you to learn new skills. It's a really good time to be comfortable with uh discomfort.

[52:19] Laura Camien: Yeah, and to have to sit it is like because we are all if you are a thinking feeling person right now, you know your homework assignment. Like we all have a lot of work to do, and a lot of that work is really gonna be uncomfortable. But if you there's something you're describing reminds me of that growth mindset and wrapping your arms around it because it's gonna be the thing, no matter what your age is, that's gonna continue to allow us to uh make this make our lives better and make our worlds better.

[52:54] Karen Olivo: Karen, you do so much. Can you tell us what's it all for?

[53:01] Karen Olivo: Hmm. Um, I really do have this sort of uh I'm not I wouldn't call myself like a positive person for sure, but um really no, truthfully no, yeah, yeah. I know, but there is something about creating art to me that is is a lot like creating life. Um, and I I feel like when I make it, I've somehow made the world better. So I keep doing it because it's the only thing that really sort of keeps me um uh grounded in this uh I was gonna sound weird, but like this cosmic framework. I feel like I'm definitely a part of that other thing if I keep uh putting it out into the world.

[53:55] Laura Camien: That's a good what's it all for. I like it. Finally, what or who is sparking you these days?

[54:02] Karen Olivo: Mmm, I'm gonna be honest with you. Oh, she is 16 and has uh it's it's as if she is not an overprivileged kid from the Midwest. She is understanding and trying to understand concepts that are so far beyond her age. She is she's like she's more of an activist than I am, you know. And I and that is not something that I would have expected from her upbringing or from where she's been or who she's been involved with, you know. And so it's sort of her tenacity and um and her willingness to uh say the uncomfortable stuff and to learn that is giving me such inspiration and hope in this moment.

[55:02] Laura Camien: That's incredible. What is her name?

[55:04] Karen Olivo: Her name's Madison Elpov.

[55:06] Laura Camien: Thanks, Madison. That sparks me too.

[55:08] Karen Olivo: Ah, Karen, thank you so much for being our guest. We love you so much.

[55:15] Laura Camien: I'm still I'm still back stuck on that you don't think you're a positive person, which you're you know, every you can say that, but I just think whenever I um get any time with you, I always leave the situation feeling better for it. So it it just surprises me to hear you say that.

[55:34] Karen Olivo: But I think that's a reflection of you, truthfully. You're like a party, man.

[55:39] Laura Camien: You really do Karen.

[55:41] Karen Olivo: You know, I'm I'm from a tired old party.

[55:45] Laura Camien: Yeah, but it's a good party. Sorry.

[55:47] Karen Olivo: Thanks, Karen. I feel the same, I feel the same way about you. Um we do, we love you. And listeners, we do hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen to us. If there's a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you've fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, we want to celebrate you. Please email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently. And be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast wherever you get your podcast. If you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, I don't know, Karen. What do you say to your critics?

[56:30] Karen Olivo: Oh man, I don't really worry about them because they don't know me.

[56:36] Laura Camien: There you go. There you go. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. Take some clay and throw and glaze it. Take some text and musically phrase it. You have a choice, you have a voice, and we hope to God you will raise it. You've got to take it and make it.

[57:08] Karen Olivo: Oh my god. We love you, Carolivo.

[57:11] Laura Camien: We love you guys. We have looked into something that inspires me. Dump it in the sparkfiles. Could be something that I want to pick or how I want to be. I'll pump it in the spark files. Spark. I jump into my spark files. Sparkfiles. Let's open up the sparkfile.