This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: The Sparkfile podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Laura Camien: Please use your discretion.

[0:09] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:14] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark spot.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien and I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:45] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:52] Susan Blackwell: Where do I get a spark file? What do I file in a spark file? These are such good questions, and we actually do have answers.

[0:55] Laura Camien: We do. A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: And if you're anything like us and you're making stuff all the time or want to be making stuff all the time, you know sometimes the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:15] Laura Camien: We're here to refill it.

[1:18] Susan Blackwell: We are. We're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:31] Laura Camien: Or a concert that celebrates a momentous transition.

[1:36] Susan Blackwell: Or a film that captures a single remarkable day in someone's life.

[1:42] Laura Camien: Or a TED Talk exploring the desire to connect directly with another distinct, separate human being.

[1:50] Susan Blackwell: Or art that can build that connection between the maker and their audience.

[1:55] Laura Camien: On today's Makersode, we're gonna talk to someone who truly sparks us.

[1:59] Susan Blackwell: And that someone is Kenyatta Emmanuel.

[2:02] Laura Camien: Kenyatta, welcome to the Spark File.

[2:09] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I feel like there's supposed to be some fanfares, some horns.

[2:15] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Those really long ones with the flags hanging from them.

[2:18] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[2:18] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah, like a real medieval vibe.

[2:21] Laura Camien: That's what we're going for. We're so happy to have you.

[2:24] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I'm so happy to be here.

[2:25] Laura Camien: We want to start by asking you where you are right now and for reals, how you are right now.

[2:33] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Uh, that's a really good question. Um so where I am right now physically is in Queens in New York.

[2:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um I love New York.

[2:41] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, New York.

[2:43] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um and how I am right now is um, I guess uh I'm I'm well is supposed to well as be considered. I mean, be expected.

[2:52] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I'm um I'm still working, you know, not not necessarily making art, um, although I am doing that as well, but I mean I'm still employed, and there's several friends and and some family members who can't all say that, you know, with everything that's going on.

[3:07] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I'm still healthy. And um, all the close friends and family who have been um you know immediately impacted by coronavirus have all recovered, and that's something to be really, really grateful for.

[3:18] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So yeah, when it's all said and done, um, I am in the plus column, is where I am.

[3:23] Laura Camien: Yeah, I like it.

[3:25] Susan Blackwell: Life in the plus column.

[3:26] Laura Camien: Love it. You know, we always begin the spark file with a price of admission, which is just real quick, can you tell us a creative risk that you have taken recently?

[3:39] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, sure. So uh this is interesting. I am so even as a um an artist, there's a weird sort of embarrassment that always accompanies everything because it's so vulnerable, and all you need is for one person to say, Well, that's ridiculous, and suddenly, you know, whatever.

[3:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, but I have been um so conducting these things which I'm calling balcony concerts, or I was calling them that. They've evolved a bit, and it was just once a month.

[4:11] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, because of the, you know, because everything was shut down and there were no venues. I would um do a little half hour perform of um material from my balcony in Queens and just um live stream it to YouTube and Facebook.

[4:26] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And um, oh my goodness, I I probably should not have mentioned them. They're so bad. Oh my goodness, they're so bad.

[4:31] Kenyatta Emmanuel: The technical difficulties, the first one started, but they've never started on time. There's always something in one instance, the the platform that I was using got an update.

[4:44] Kenyatta Emmanuel: The next instance, some I was using my my laptop and I wasn't aware how things worked with the notifications because I just come home and um someone called and I got a notification in the middle of of a performance of a song that caused that caused a particular app to skip just a little bit and suddenly all my background vocals are coming in in the wrong wrong section.

[5:07] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That oh my I can't even tell you how much sweating have you ever been in those situations where a lot of people are looking at you and your skin starts to feel hot and itchy?

[5:17] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That's exactly how I was feeling, except I couldn't be sure if there was one person listening or a million. I knew there wasn't a million, but that said, um, it was good to to to be out there to feel that again, I suppose.

[5:29] Laura Camien: You know, we were getting ready to record an episode of the podcast the other day, and with it, it wasn't just the two of us. We had a guest, and my computer started running a fucking update.

[5:41] Laura Camien: And it said uh it would be completed in I think that was 30 minutes. And I was like, Oh my god, I was shitting myself.

[5:49] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And it it well, I know a similar feeling, and it does not feel good. And that being called in the middle, you're like, I'm trying to make some art in a pandemic, and then somebody calls you and it makes your backing vocals jump.

[6:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That is some pandemic realness right there.

[6:08] Laura Camien: That is some creative pandemic realness.

[6:11] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's it's the messiness, uh, you know, like we're all anyone who's trying to do anything right now knows that it can be messy, and we're still doing it anyway, which is the important part of it, or maybe talking about it now when it's actually happening.

[6:28] Susan Blackwell: It's exactly like what you're saying, Kenyatta. The sweating, the goodness.

[6:35] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Oh my god.

[6:35] Laura Camien: Yeah, that's a good idea. And the the following day, the following day, I got a call from a friend.

[6:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That's what it is, it's the heat in your arm, it's on your skin everywhere.

[6:43] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's hot. Um, and uh, I got a call from a friend the following day who's like, I caught the the the balcony concert, I joined late, it was so great.

[6:51] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I said, Yeah, I had a weird thing where somebody called me and skipped, and I was like, it just made the thing skip, and I'm trying to wrestle with this Mac and turn off the app.

[6:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: At the same time, I can't stop playing the piano and singing along with it. And she says, Yeah, that was me.

[7:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I was like, Well, it wasn't even that big a deal. It barely set me back at all, actually. So yeah, it was nothing.

[7:11] Laura Camien: Oh no!

[7:13] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Backpedal, backpedaled backpedal.

[7:16] Laura Camien: Oh boy, the story gets richer and richer.

[7:19] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah, just life.

[7:20] Laura Camien: Life is rich, man.

[7:21] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Life is rich.

[7:22] Susan Blackwell: I think you're officially admitted to the Spark file.

[7:25] Laura Camien: One way.

[7:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: One million percent.

[7:29] Susan Blackwell: And I do think that there this is something we talk about all the time, which is you know when you are in the midst of a good, healthy, constructive, creative risk when the heat is on.

[7:43] Laura Camien: Like when you can feel the heat in your body.

[7:46] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um I mean, there are times when it's beautiful and it's flowing, and we've certainly seen you perform in that way too, where it's just like everything comes together.

[7:57] Laura Camien: It's just like you're seeing a miracle in real life.

[7:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And then there are times when all of a sudden you're like the temperature on this balcony hasn't changed, but I'm sweating through my shirt.

[8:07] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah, yeah, that sounds exactly right.

[8:10] Laura Camien: Jingle lets you know it's working.

[8:11] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Ooh, baby.

[8:12] Laura Camien: That's intense. Kenyatta, for for everyone listening now who you know doesn't know you, how do you identify creatively?

[8:21] Kenyatta Emmanuel: When people ask you, what do you do? How do you answer that question?

[8:25] Kenyatta Emmanuel: You know, sometimes I say I'm a musician, or I might say that I'm a singer. Um, or I might say any number of things, songwriter.

[8:32] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Songwriter is is pretty solid. Like, I mean, in the context that whenever I say any of those other things, I always feel like I have to add a qualifier of some sort.

[8:41] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, but not songwriter. You don't have to have a lot of people.

[8:44] Laura Camien: No, I think I feel as close as one.

[8:47] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I'm not, you know, I'm not boastful or proud by nature. It's just not really how I'm built.

[8:52] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But that said, if there's one thing that that my um confidence rises to that level, it would probably it would be with songwriter.

[8:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I feel very it's um because ultimately um what I am is a storyteller.

[9:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So while I feel no need to um qualify the storyteller label, the storyteller handle, I often feel the need to kind of explain it to make because I I feel like people don't always appreciate what it is to be a storyteller or what it is to um to tell and create stories and how much we need them, how we are built um to respond to them.

[9:31] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um a book by um uh Daniel Kahneman. Um I want to say it's thinking fast and slow, but it might not be, but folks can go check it out. Google's great.

[9:43] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um do your own research people.

[9:46] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, right. That's not what we're here for.

[9:48] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um so he um talks about yeah, coneman, yeah. And he talks about how the the reason that smart people um often are can believe incredibly outrageous things is because they're so imaginative by by by smart I mean not necessarily learned, but imaginative people.

[10:13] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's because what we really respond to isn't facts, it isn't knowledge, it's stories.

[10:19] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And so when we hear a believable story, if we believe it enough, the facts will just be something to be blown away, like something that w you know that that that we know are just illusions because facts don't convince us of things.

[10:34] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And I think that's why when you look at uh you look at Jesus and and and all of these uh incredible historical figures of of such prominence, and when it comes down to it, when it came time to convey the most important ideas, you know, um I'm I'm mindful or I'm reminded of as though I was there, but I'm reminded of of Jesus saying, you know, um, well, what is the kingdom of heaven like? And to what should I compare it?

[11:02] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And then he goes into a story. He says, This the kingdom of heaven is like a guy goes out in the field and he finds a pearl, he looks around, nobody sees that he's got the pearl, so he covers it back up because it's not his field, he goes and sells everything that he's got so that he can buy this field.

[11:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Now, when a person is listening to that, they understand they understand the motivation of the guy who found the pearl.

[11:25] Kenyatta Emmanuel: You know, on some level, they understand that there's a person who owns this field who doesn't know what they've got, and because they don't know what they've got, they're about to lose it.

[11:33] Kenyatta Emmanuel: There's so many things that are inherent that are just inside that story that the storyteller never really has to say.

[11:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And so, as a result, if you were to come at those things head on, if you were to try to talk to somebody and say, Hey, I want to tell you about not having not knowing what you have because you haven't fully explored it, or I want to tell you about going out to find things and explore to see what's out there.

[11:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I want to tell you about finding something that is so valuable to you that you're willing to give up everything else to get it, even knowing that once you've given up everything else, you might not get it, but the chance is worth it.

[12:08] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And all of those things are in the story. And if I tried to tell you about them individually, you might not have the time to be bothered, frankly, because that's kind of how we're built too.

[12:17] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But when I'm able to wrap it in a story and then wrap this the story like up in a in an actual nice melody that can kind of you know trick you for a moment to get you listening, yeah, then that is how we can communicate, and that's how we can really really remember each of us the essential truths that we we know already.

[12:37] Kenyatta Emmanuel: We already know them. We just kind of have to be reminded of them occasionally, I think.

[12:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:43] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Now, how does the story with the pearl in the field end?

[12:47] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[12:48] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So um when he goes to go get the field, they build a house on top of it. No, I'm just joking, that's not what happens.

[12:53] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um he goes to the owner of the field and he offers to buy it and they sell it to him, and now he has it.

[13:04] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And the pearl is worth far more than anything that he had before anyway.

[13:08] Laura Camien: So it's so interesting because even as you were telling the story about storytelling, I was like, yeah, but what about the story?

[13:17] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's like what we watched.

[13:18] Laura Camien: Right, right, right.

[13:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And then powerful.

[13:21] Laura Camien: And then absolutely, absolutely.

[13:24] Susan Blackwell: Kenyatta, a question we often ask our guests is when you look back on your personal life, is there a line of demarcations sort of like uh before this thing or event or chapter happened and after and how that impacted uh their creativity?

[13:42] Kenyatta Emmanuel: In a life fully lived, most artists have a few of these, and I uh would seem that you do too. But can you tell us about October 21st, 2019?

[13:54] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Just in terms of a before and an after.

[13:57] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Well, the biggest before um October 21st, 2019, um, was that I was incarcerated.

[14:06] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Uh and so my movement, um, physical, you know, um, you know, geographical movement and growth was just confirmed to a certain um, you know, on a certain level. And after that wasn't, you know, that wasn't the case.

[14:21] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um so and then I saw I suppose the sort of demarcation line um would be the release, but it was sort of the full day, the full day of actually um, you know, coming home and seeing people, you know, at Carnegie that I hadn't seen for such a long time.

[14:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So you know, I mean, the individuals with whom I'd spent literally years, you know, um as something of housemates, individuals whom I'd only known for a few years, but whom I'd grown really close to, being able to spend the day um with my wife who was Cecily who was so integrally involved in um putting together the logistics and handling the jit logistics for the concert that we would have that night.

[15:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Each of the musicians who was there to play at the concert, like there was there was literally one person at the concert um who was playing um of all those musicians and I forgot what the number is, I want to say about 14, 17 or something.

[15:19] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And um only only one of them did I not know personally and that was because one of the string quartet uh players had another uh engagement um out west and so you know some someone stepped in to play for for him but like these were people who um I think and that was why the um the energy was so incredible.

[15:44] Kenyatta Emmanuel: If you could imagine literally playing a concert for you know over 200 of your best friends and family members.

[15:54] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Like that's literally who had not seen you for years.

[15:57] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Imagine that or months.

[15:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So you literally in the morning, I think it looked like morning time, you stepped out of 10:30.

[16:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Being incarcerated, your beautiful wife picks you up, enters into the Navigator, Carnegie Hall, and you drive straight to Carnegie Hall, where you are going to rehearse and prepare for a concert of your own music that night.

[16:35] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I mean, that was a big band.

[16:37] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah.

[16:37] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But also the audience, it's all made up of people who if they didn't know you and love you before, they did it by the end of that night.

[16:47] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Right.

[16:47] Kenyatta Emmanuel: There it was just love.

[16:49] Kenyatta Emmanuel: There was um, there were a couple of people whom I did not know immediately personally, like the children of um of friends, and that was a wonderful experience too.

[17:00] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, for instance, one of my professors from um uh um from the master's program that I took when I was at Sing Sing, yeah, um, whom I whom I hadn't seen since you know, since graduation.

[17:12] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So that was in two I graduated in 2014.

[17:14] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So that's five years that I wasn't able to see him because you know, if as as a volunteer, he's not allowed to, you know, say, hey, you know, we I really enjoyed uh spending time with this particular student, so I'm gonna come visit.

[17:28] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That's that's not how that works.

[17:29] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So but I was able to see him for after five years and to um to to to meet his wife, you know, whom he'd spoken of when he was teaching classes or whatever, but it that wasn't an opportunity.

[17:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So it was a chance for people whom I may not have met personally to finally meet me and for me to meet them, but there was always a sort of commonality because of the um relationships that were there.

[17:54] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So it was just um it was it was an incredible evening.

[17:58] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I had to see um uh I saw my my mother whom I hadn't seen, you know, again for I'm gonna say about four years or so, just because it's it was very difficult for them to travel from you know deepwater Missouri where they live to New York.

[18:14] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And there's a lot of things involved with that.

[18:16] Laura Camien: Was she right in the front row?

[18:18] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Mm-hmm.

[18:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: She was.

[18:21] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, and and they arrived a little late, and when I came out and I did not see them, I was I was disappointed.

[18:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And then we began before the first song started, or as I was um finishing the first song, I looked and I saw her, but my dad had to park the car.

[18:36] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So I didn't see him all night.

[18:37] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I didn't even know he was there.

[18:38] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I was so it was a certain a certain sort of disappointment.

[18:41] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And um, but he he um I rent after when it was over when everyone came um through to you know, shake hands and hug and cry all over each other and all of that great stuff.

[18:51] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, you know, I saw him then and you know, he said I he said, I made it in at the in the middle of wingtips.

[18:57] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I really want to hear that song.

[18:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So it's um so I was able to send that to him.

[19:01] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So that's good.

[19:02] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But so for our listeners, the reason why Suze and I are responding as though we were there as well is because so much of that day is beautifully captured in a in a short film by Sean Gallagher called First Free Note.

[19:02] Kenyatta Emmanuel: First free Note.

[19:19] Laura Camien: Yes.

[19:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And people, anyone listening, can watch that beautiful short film on your website, KenyattaEmmanuel.com.

[19:30] Laura Camien: Can you just walk us through a little bit?

[19:32] Laura Camien: Just walk us back through time a little.

[19:34] Laura Camien: How did you end up at Carnegie Hall on the evening of your release from a New York State prison?

[19:42] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's incredible.

[19:43] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Right.

[19:44] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So incredible experience.

[19:47] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So what can I like in this experience too?

[19:50] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's like when a man, no, just kidding.

[19:53] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So I was a storytelling.

[19:55] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I was like, it seems I was like, this is the best birthday party ever.

[20:00] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That's it, it is similar to that, you know, like the if this idea that we are being um we're being born, you know, all the time.

[20:09] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Again, there goes that storytelling, you know, a great example again, um, not exclusively, but just probably I'm gonna refer to uh a lot, is is just when Jesus talks about being born again.

[20:19] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's this is understanding that new beginnings are our births, you know, and and um in so many different ways.

[20:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um and that was what that was like.

[20:29] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It was in the essence of being born into um a new phase of life because of being being held back, you know, or held in that space for so long.

[20:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But there's also the element of these songs, um, many of which had not been heard publicly um before that night.

[20:51] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I mean, Carnegie, um I was part of a program or am part of a program called Um Musical Connections at Carnegie Hall, um, which is um run by a good friend and mentor, um uh uh Manuel Bogoro.

[21:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um and he uh uh uh he was there that night, and in fact, he's the inspiration for the song Wing Tips, which you won't hear on um uh first free note, unfortunately.

[21:15] Laura Camien: Can we hear it somewhere else?

[21:16] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Just sorry to interrupt that thought, but now that your dad's mentioned it too, where can we hear wingtips?

[21:22] Kenyatta Emmanuel: He really's talking about it.

[21:24] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Come on.

[21:25] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah, yeah.

[21:25] Kenyatta Emmanuel: You know what?

[21:26] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I'm going to get on top of that.

[21:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, because I need to, I actually I have these files.

[21:30] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I am just so again, it's it I'm reminded.

[21:34] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um Stephen King speaks of um the voice that's in your head, and like he he talks about writing, and that when the first thing that he'd written, um someone I guess there was a school teacher or uh a counselor who caught him and said, you know, why do you want to waste your time with this garbage?

[21:51] Kenyatta Emmanuel: You're so talented, why would you want to waste your time with this garbage?

[21:54] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And now, even after all these years and all this success and all this acclaim and you know, all the the money, right, which is a certain type of acclaim in and of itself, right?

[22:03] Kenyatta Emmanuel: People don't buy what they don't like, as for the most part.

[22:07] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, and he said, but still, like there when he writes, and there's this little voice inside him that says, Why do you waste your time with this garbage?

[22:16] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah, and so there's a and I certainly don't feel like you know, wingtips or any of this stuff is garbage.

[22:22] Kenyatta Emmanuel: As I said, I'm confident in especially in that aspect of my um my artistry.

[22:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And yet, when it comes to the point of releasing it out into the world, there's always a feeling of who are you to offer yourself to the world as though the world has nothing else to do with its time but spend it on you.

[22:44] Kenyatta Emmanuel: The only thing any of us has is time, and you're gonna actually ask people to give their time to you.

[22:49] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And that's just a a remark.

[22:52] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It's just a thing that I suppose we all wrestle with.

[22:55] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[22:56] Laura Camien: That's the moment in the creative process that we call sharing the life.

[23:00] Laura Camien: You know, you've had the spark of the idea, you fanned those creative flames, you've you've brought something into existence that never existed before.

[23:07] Laura Camien: And then when it comes time to share the light, there are there are different people have different challenges along the creative cycle, but that's a that's a really vulnerable time.

[23:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And so I think you're not alone in having that feeling.

[23:25] Laura Camien: And we would just like to say, we love it.

[23:28] Laura Camien: Keep going.

[23:29] Laura Camien: If you have all that footage of that concert, if for no one else than Laura Camien and Susan Blackwell, we hope that you will share it out.

[23:29] Laura Camien: We hope that you share it out.

[23:41] Laura Camien: We really do.

[23:42] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Because I suspect more than just us would want to hear about it.

[23:45] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I I think so too.

[23:46] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But you are the genuine article, and your work is a genuine gift.

[23:51] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah.

[23:51] Laura Camien: But we're getting ahead of ourselves because no one knows what we're talking about.

[23:55] Laura Camien: This music, I want to know.

[23:58] Laura Camien: Tell I want to know how you created it, where you were when you created it, where these ideas came from.

[24:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Well, at Sing Sing, um the program Musical Connections came in.

[24:12] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um Manuel Bagoro came in initially.

[24:15] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, and he was, I don't remember whether he was invited or he approached uh Dr.

[24:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Mallon, who at that time was the assistant deputy superintendent of programs.

[24:25] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And she's like uh she was always really, really big um with the arts and just really providing opportunities.

[24:33] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[24:34] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Like, I mean, she just uh like through would throw herself into it and and just would so occasionally um first of all for for for individuals who are within the the administration to um uh uh to approach and and uh basically solicit to to a certain extent, not in a bad way, um, but to actually solicit work, artistic work from from the incarcerated men was it's it's not something that happens in in many facilities, but she um myself and other some other guys that were there that that played instruments and um and she was like you should play this event, you should do this thing, you should practice this, find a space, and and and so it was always um powerful to have that person that we knew we had the ear of and we could say we want to do this thing.

[25:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So she had an opportunity to bring some music in, and it was just about um offering exposure to some things that maybe we hadn't heard before.

[25:28] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And I think the first group that came in was um called uh Slavic Soul Party, I think, all right.

[25:37] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And uh oh, are you not familiar with it?

[25:39] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Listen, you listen, let me tell you something.

[25:41] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Y'all need to go listen to Slavic Soul Party.

[25:44] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Is that a hot spark?

[25:45] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I'm writing it down.

[25:46] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Listen, listen, write it down.

[25:48] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Matt Moran and Slavic Soul Party.

[25:50] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So they came in and they played, and um, so they they they've got like this incredible blend of Balkan funk blue, it's just it's crazy that this stuff.

[26:03] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah, it's yeah, huh?

[26:04] Laura Camien: Let's start with that.

[26:05] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Let's start with Balkan Funk.

[26:07] Kenyatta Emmanuel: All right, and let's just it's all about balk and funk.

[26:11] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So um they came in and they they played, and and then the next group came in, which was um which was Sayotos, uh, Chris Washburn and Sayotos.

[26:21] Kenyatta Emmanuel: They played Latin jazz, and obviously the men inside would really appreciate it, first of all, that anybody would come in.

[26:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But secondly, even if it was music that they weren't necessarily familiar with, there was certainly a large constituent for Latin jazz, familiar with um those things.

[26:35] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But the Balkan Funk, I mean, that I mean, who?

[26:39] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Not you, not me.

[26:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Well, you know, so um we were just we were in folks' minds were boom, and as we were having conversation, you know, you know, Dr.

[26:48] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Mallon was like, Hey, would you like to talk to the the artist?

[26:50] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And we're like, of course we would.

[26:51] Kenyatta Emmanuel: We speak to the musicians, we're talking about different things.

[26:54] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Absolutely.

[26:54] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And um, so they came back and they said, Hey, we understand you got these guys here, they play, you know.

[26:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: What if the next time we came in, like maybe, you know, they they played a couple of songs with with us, which was Chris Washburn and Sayotos.

[27:07] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And so we played um, and he did he did Latin jazz, and he was basically uh uh he had a lot of brass because you know it's that Latin jazz stuff and keyboard uh um and so we were like, yep, absolutely.

[27:19] Kenyatta Emmanuel: We played, we played um, I think we did wars um lowrider, and so that was that was great.

[27:25] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So five electric guitars up there with this Latin jazz band.

[27:30] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And the next time they come in, they said, We think the guys would would like to maybe um have a workshop.

[27:34] Kenyatta Emmanuel: We we got a guitar.

[27:36] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Uh we've got we have a guitarist who's uh you know, staff and he's teaching, and he came in and as it evolved, you know, over time, the next thing, well, not the next thing, you know, it took a few years to happen, but we had um we went from five guys playing guitar, being having a workshop, you know, once a month, to every other week, um, several teaching artists, as many as six coming in teaching up to 30 people on various instruments from the electric guitars that we started with to violins.

[28:04] Kenyatta Emmanuel: There was a guy named Danny who literally taught himself violin from scratch with a violin for dummies book.

[28:11] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Like that's how dedicated he was.

[28:14] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And exploring things that they would not for many of those guys, now for some it was a diversion and and you need diversion in that space.

[28:22] Kenyatta Emmanuel: You need things to take your, you know, for to relief, if you will, respite, if you will.

[28:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: But for some, it was their pearl of great price.

[28:29] Kenyatta Emmanuel: You know, it was this this was the field that they'd found that you know maybe had been lying there that whole time.

[28:36] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Like the thing, and they were able to go to that space and um find something that was a sort of um a true north for them, if you will, like something that they could really dedicate their life to.

[28:47] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I had been musically inclined. I love music since I was a child. I was raised in a musical household, um, listening to I mean the first two records that I remember having, um, and obviously one wasn't mine, but I thought of it as mine. I played it so much, but my father thought of it as mine. So the one that was mine was uh was one of children's songs. I remember they had like the man on the flying trapeze and all of that. And this and the song on it I just love the most was um swinging on a star, which you know the um oh, that's just jazzy, even now. Come on, man. You know, would you rather and and it's just and the lyrics are just impeccable. Um I'm just gonna say for the record. The when the the it's the fish, although he's slippery, he still gets caught.

Anyway, whatever. Um, so uh and so that's that one. And then the other album was Dave Brubeck's Out of Time. Wow. And so it was, you know, and and and of course, Take Five was like just I'll I'll rondo the turtle too, but but uh I mean, come on, take five is just it. I mean, okay, take five, that's what it is. So, anyway, um and and I think that was the the reason I mentioned those, A, because I lived in that world growing up, right? So that regardless of what the environment, the physical environment was, or the the financial, economic environment was that space was was was that I was in and was in me was something that shaped me. Um you know, the the the verse in the Bible says uh raise up a child, uh way you should go and he's old, he won't depart from it.

And the when I came back to music, there were certain elements that just were they were already ingrained. So I never had a problem. One of the things like like catching um uh uh complex meters because I I was listening to out of time and I was so I could feel five fours and you know, um, four and three switches and whatever. Like I listened to a lot of stuff when I was young too, but I it hasn't made me able to translate into composing on the level that you're working on, didn't he? Actually, has not, you know, led to even playing the instrument for me. But um, so like you were because that wasn't that might not be your particular spark, which is which is I mean, you know, I mean, so um it's it's for each one.

The the point is that the nourishment was there. Now, perhaps if my spark had been different, um, then I would be talking about some other form of nourishment that was there. If I was a chef, perhaps I'd be telling you how my mother was cooking these incredible dishes. Yeah, but the thing that that resonated with me, and then later on, you know, there when Carnegie would come in, the thing that they would be able to grasp and help me to shape and mold and consistently be writing this music um with these deadlines. They'd say, Hey, have this done by this time, and it was just wonderful, it was a great experience to be able to make that much music to be able to have when upon coming home to say, look, um, can we do can we can I do a I'd like to do a concert with this origin and and for them to look and say, Well, yeah, you know, and to be able to say, I'm gonna choose the the best 12. You know what I mean? Like that's just uh an incredible blessing to have.

[32:06] Laura Camien: Do you remember where you were when that spark of an idea came to you to do the concert?

[32:14] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yes. Um, and so the way you said that, I was like, is it the bathroom? Wait a second. Where were we? Yes, as a mess funny. You know what? You're really good. So it was I was in the shower. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's a great place to catch a spark. I have a I have waterproof paper and a waterproof pencil in the shower for this reason. Yes. Exactly. You need that. So um, I and another guy we were in the communal showers in Sing C. And um, he was also another member of the program. And um, and he's like, you know, the it would be because we just witnessed a concert. I think we'd had one, and um we we the Carnegie was um, I mean, the the concerts cost money, they have to go through a lot um just to be coming into the facility.

And and they and and they have certain standards. They're like, listen, just because we're doing it in here, we're still Carnegie Hall. So they're bringing in all of this equipment, which folks got to check in. It's just crazy. Um, so we weren't able, I think at when at our height, we were able to do four a year, which is you know, still pretty good. Um, but there was always, as I said, there were 30, you know, people in the program, there was always a desire for more. And so the friend I was speaking to, his name is Mo, he's still part of the program and um he was like you know we should just we can just do a concert where you don't they don't have to bring in outside because normally what they do they bring in an outside performance and we would support them or they would support us and sometimes and in fact that was how I met Joyce uh DiNado she came in and and we had the opportunity to write for not just an opera singer but an opera singer of that caliber and yeah so if y'all don't know Joyce Donato she's a world class opera singer who Kenyatta collaborates with and composes for and yeah she came in and was working with y'all there and sing.

[34:04] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah exactly um and and some really great stuff came of it not just for me but um the guys were because you want to do well and and you want to you want we all want validation but what kind of tends to happen is the esteem with which and in which we hold other individuals it just waits their validation for us. So someone like um uh uh Joyce when she's coming in to to have her um you know as like again it was a well done you know good and faithful servant just this idea of of being told by someone that we hold in with a certain sort of esteem hey good job this was this was well done so guys really really went in and really really put a lot of effort and time and reviewing each other's stuff but as a result as you speak of the Spark file there was any number there was an incredible amount of material that would we generate that would never actually get a chance to be performed.

Yeah and so Mo was like, you know, we could we could do concerts ourselves. You know, we could do it in here and and Carnegie can maybe bring in a strip down. They don't have to bring in these huge productions and and and we could end um, you know, and from that, in that conversation, um, you know, we we began to talk about the having that type of material, and it just evolved into being able for one or two guys to be able to care because it also not everybody had the same amount of material, not everybody liked to be out in front. Um, he and I, he and I do. I love it, you know. So, and and and and he did, and he was like, you know, we could do that, and we can we can rotate it, and you and I could do it, or you and Rob and Rob and so and so, and we could just figure out how to do this.

And then that evolved into the the idea that we could be doing that out in the street, and um the idea of doing one when we came home. And that the the crazy thing about that is that that never seemed it it never seemed um yeah ambitious in in in the the way that people say when you when you say something that they really think is ridiculous, and they say, that's that's very ambitious, and because they don't want to say it's because they don't want to say you can't do it. Um until I had a chance to speak to the artists who were there about it, and they were like, I like Sarah Elizabeth Charles, who's one of the teaching artists, she's uh incredible jazz singer, and she was coming in. I said, Hey, this is a thing I've been thinking about doing, and you know, what are the logistics like?

How would that such a thing go down? And she's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's just all the way in. But she's one of those people on the flip side of the ambitious thing. She's one of those people who are so supportive. Like you come to him and say, So I've got these wings I made from wax and toilet paper. And she's like, and she's like, well, let's figure out how you can flap your arms fast enough. So that's who she is. Um, and so I wasn't sure if I mean it's terrible to be saying this now, and this would be broadcast for the world to hear, but I wasn't sure if I could trust her assessment because she's so supportive. So I um I wouldn't ask Manuel Bagor, the the the the um head of that particular program, and I said, Hey, I need for you to tell me uh just straight, I need to know whether or not and and I laid it out, I said, This is what I want to do.

This is what yeah and the feedback that he gave me was so specific that when I left that space knowing I could do it, I knew that I could do it. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, he was talking about how long songs are in the I mean he was talking about he was talking about he was talking about specifics, like minutes. And and and um, and and the other thing that I think is really important is that my wife was a hundred, she was on, like she was on board from the beginning. Um at the beginning we didn't think we were going to do it at Carnegie. That wasn't that on the other hand, if if if if that had been the um the the aspiration, then I would not I would have been too intimidated. We were planning on renting a small space for the people that I was coming home to.

Yeah. And so I was asking, so I asked Sarah because I know that she rents clubs and or does whatever you know, performers do. I don't know, I still don't know because I haven't been home long enough before COVID happened to do any real gigging like I wanted to. Um, and then over the course of having the conversations and talking to the the the musicians, um, I'm reminded of Willem Delersport, whom in the um in the video, uh um first free note, he's playing the piano on Holding Out Hope. And I can't tell you how how much his playing brought to that song. It was so beautiful that it do you know that when I was watching that, I was thinking, this piano is bananas. It is. It is gorgeous. Isn't it? Isn't it? Oh my god, it is. It is uh yes.

[38:56] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Willem Delasforth, the incomparable Willem Dellis. And I gave him, I mean, what I gave him was just it was literally a chord chart. The first time we did it, I had the music scored out on finale, right? But because of the logistics of being in sing sing, I wasn't able to get to the room and get access to the computer to print it out. So I had to come to him with a chord chart. And I said, listen, I've got this scored out for you. Um, and I'll bring that to you the next time for the performance, but for rehearsal, here's the chords. Can you just follow along and I'll tell you where the breaks are as we do it? He's like, sure, no problem. And when we finished, I was like, listen, never mind whatever.

I just said just what you did. What you did is that yeah, that was a good idea. It is a it is a living thing. And the way that the way that all of you are working together, it is it's I it's surprising and it's not surprising to hear you say that that's how that came to be. There's there's another, there's a couple of things in what you're saying too that I think are really really important. Number one is this you had the spark of an idea, and you just sort of kept talking about it, talking it into existence, talking to people who could help motivate you and support you, but also really be good discussion partners for specifics about the like you were saying to the minute about song length and and logistics. But I also think there's something about you were saying earlier about having deadlines to have to generate that work.

[40:30] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That's right. And having people, Joyce Dedonato is just one of them, but it sounds like there were other people involved who you respected deeply, and those were the people that you had accountability to. So yeah, you got that, you know, people were really turning in their creative homework. And I think that that's really key. If sometimes if we just try to do this stuff in a vacuum, it can be really easy for those deadlines to sort of get brushed to the side and for the idea to sort of float away and maybe not float back. But it you were you continually you were continuing the conversation, but you were also you were partnering with people who you really respected. And I think there's that's a key to the equation of accountability and getting stuff made.

[41:22] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I think so too. I think um I'm reminded of two things. One, another person who was in the program who's a very, very good friend of mine, um, named uh um Jermaine, and Jermaine was in the program, and he would say, I don't need Mo time, I need a deadline. Like that was just one of his favorite phrases when uh when he's trying to get something done, and they'd be like, Well, maybe he's like, No, when do you need it? Tell me when I have to have it done, and I'll get it done. And and and he was right. Um, and the other thing was an instance where one of the men who was in the program, Chris Washburn, who was um the uh he's he's uh he has a band called Sayotos, and he was one of the teaching artists, or is one of the teaching artists, he's still interrelating involved with the program.

Um, and um he came in and he had given us an assignment. It was the the it was the season of Duke Ellington, and we were examining Duke Ellington's sacred um um uh sacred songs, the sacred suite, and we were just and we had been given an analysis, I think, I think we'd been given a task to it to analyze several of the the chords that he the way that he had constructed um horn cords, like the way that he arranged them that were just often um in violation for lack of a better word. You can't see my air quotes, but they're there, in violation of the um the rules for stacking things, like not double like don't double the third or whatever, I don't know. So Duke Ellington apparently no one told him.

So he did what he wanted, and and we were trying, we were supposed to examine them and come back with an analysis of how these things were done. And then we had another assignment. So one of the people was one of the guys in the program, uh, Chris Wash, he says, Yeah, listen, I was trying to get it, but I had this and this and this, and he's got a bunch of reasons why, because we all have reasons why, whatever.

[43:15] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Everybody's got a reason for everything. Um, you know, and um, and Chris said, Yeah, no, I I told you you're supposed to have it done. I expect you to have it done. Um, so the assignment for next week is X, Y, and Z. Have that, and I expect you to have this done before that, so you can bring it back next week because I won't see you before then. But have and and he was just like, he was very no nonsense about it. And that's an inter I just want to say because I think that um for most people who are listening right now won't be able to appreciate what it means for a volunteer who comes into that space to have that sort of assertiveness because often um, first of all, it's an intimidating place for anyone to be.

Okay, that's a very intimidating thing when you come through those gates and you know that you can't leave unless they let you go. Never mind what you have a right to. You can't leave unless they let you go because you can't leave. You can't, you can't break your way out. It's designed so you can't. The second thing is that these men that you're coming in here to work with, and and women in other facilities, you are really mindful that you do not want to harm them with your presence. Okay, they have a world that they have they have whatever things they have to deal with, um, uh, and whatever uh prices they have to pay, whatever cost they have to bear, whatever uh circumstances have brought them to this place.

The last thing that you want to do is in any way be an additional um harm to them or anyone who's connected to them. And as a result, it's a very difficult, it's a very nuanced, and and and the dance can be very intimidating. Like, how do I do this? How do I serve? How far do I go? And Chris Washburn, frankly, the first time he came in, um, he was like, okay. And he asked questions and he was very deferential and very respectful. And it was like almost immediately, once he was like, Okay, I've I've got it, I know what it is. He was it that was just not his, he wasn't worried about it. And so, anyway, so this so the guy says to him, yo, you you can't talk to me like that. And Chris and Chris says, Chris says, I just did, and everybody's like, and he did.

So, and so the guy's and guys, and guys like, I was like, Well, that is that is yes, you did. Okay, so they got it done, you know. You know, that's a funny thing. And that was that was necessary. They got they got it done. He got it done. The guy got the homework done, yes, he did. Yeah, yeah. We're all that guy sometimes. Yeah, yes, we are. Sure, we are. We're all that guy. Good on Christmas. Oh, yeah. Listen, wonderful guy, Chris. Wonderful teacher and wonderful artist. Kenyatta, you accomplished so much when you were incarcerated. You got two degrees. It seems like you were becoming more and more and more creative. You also participated in this project that I saw online called Voices from Within.

Yeah. Where you went into a room alone with a video camera, you looked straight into that camera, and you conveyed a personal, your personal experience with gun violence in the hopes of dissuading other people from taking up guns. It's it is very emotional. It's very real and impassioned. And I just want to, there's a there's a method to my madness, but I just would it be okay if I read to you a bit of what you said in that video?

[46:37] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Sure.

[46:38] Laura Camien: Yeah. So you say, uh you could be the bad thing that happens to someone right now. You could pull a trigger and put a stop to someone else's now forever. They'll never have another now. And for every now you have after that, it will always be that now. You won't get away from it. And then you say, you could be the good that happens, and maybe that's me for you right now. If I could be the good that happens, if I could help you, if I could be the good for you, maybe the bad could be offset if I could be the good for you.

[47:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Wow. Hearing you say that, and here I mean, your whole presence, you're you're a person who has a tremendous amount of personal presence. I don't know how else to say it. And I I love the thoughts that you are working through there about that equation of working with the factors of now and forever and good offsetting bad. And I was so sparked by watching that. And I thought it's an it seemed like an amazing project, that voices from within. But I also thought your thoughts would make a fantastic song. Have you written this song or a song like it?

[48:02] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um I I don't suppose so. I've um it's interesting. I've not um I've as you say those things, I remember, I remember saying those things. Um I do not um I've I've certainly never seen them seen it printed as a sort of transcript or heard it delivered. Um I've I've had the opportunity to um see the uh video itself um a couple of times. Uh but I've never actually seen the whole thing, it's very difficult to watch. So um yeah, I don't know. It's really real, it's really raw. Like it's so it seems like it's so um, it lives in this place that as makers and as creatives, it's one of those things that we talk about when we're like, if you have to live through it. If you are a maker, then you have the possibility, you have the choice of making something out of it.

And you could make anything, you could make a song, you could make a dance, you can make a painting, you can make a movie, but it could be something that is takes something like a really challenging thing, a really hot to the touch thing and makes something potentially beautiful out of it, potentially of service to other people out of it. And when I watched it, I was like it this is making something beautiful and of service, even though it's hot to the touch, it is beautiful and of service to others. So you may have to live through it, but at least you as an artist you get to make something out of it. So I I I um I just wonder about the I think it's beautiful that they this film exists and I can imagine it would be difficult challenging to watch. And then I also think I hope you keep making I hope you keep making things out of your lived experience because it's it's beautiful.

[50:16] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah I I think um the the the there's a line in a song there's a line I have a line in a song that's um and it it just says that you know um all we uh really have is um what we leave behind you know and just um just a sort of I think most of us at this point have heard this idea that um the of two deaths you know, the death of your physical you know, the physical body, which is your consciousness leaving it, or so um, arguably or whatever, but um, and then there's the death of the the last person um who remembers you um passing, and so as long as that person, you know, someone sort of remembers you. But a friend of mine, um, Julian Clepper, um, another artist is uh it's interesting how many of my friends are artists.

I well, personally, I think we all are artists, and maybe we'll talk about that some other time, but um yeah, it's like um yeah. Um I I really I can't say this strongly enough. I believe that the essence of what humanity is is is is artistry, that that is what that is the only thing we've really got. But anyway, he takes it out to a third death and he says that you know, even after the the people who remember you specifically, whom you've met, there is the impact that you've had on the world. And so if you've built something or made something or touched something or changed something, and that thing that you've done continues to affect and hopefully better the world, um, then you are still not gone.

The fact that someone doesn't the idea that you have to be consciously remembered that your name or face has to be retained um in order for that um whatever element of mortality or immortality to be affected, it's just vanity on our part because we're so attached to our face and our name when in fact our effect is what is what lives on.

[52:16] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So um I think um that particular now, the now that I spoke of, and the now in which that was um made, um they are universe impacting because um we are all that connected. Um but they will continue to to to move forward and and to be impacting the this situation. So um I don't know, just frankly and honestly speaking, I don't know that I'll ever be able to visit that um in a in a way that will allow me the crafting that is required in my mind to make art. There's a certain dispassionate, even as you are incredibly caught up in the throes of it, there is something in crafting that requires restraint and and discipline. Um what I have found is that in revisiting uh much of those um those particular nows, there is um I I have very little space left for the um restraint that um craftsmanship requires.

[53:29] Laura Camien: So that makes sense.

[53:31] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That makes a lot of sense.

[53:33] Laura Camien: I'm so excited to see what you continue to make and the stories that you continue to tell, because you have such a gift in your TED talk, you there's a similar sort of I don't know what human language to use to describe it, but it's sort of this gift to describe in the same way that you talk about the the now and the forever and the exchange of good. It's that thing where you're you're describing Kenyatta, how there you are you and you are moving through the world and you have your filters, and I am me. Here I am up on this stage, and I am an individual person and I have my filters. Right. And what we want more than anything is to connect, but there is a sabotage between in that between us connecting.

There's a sabotage that that sometimes makes it harder to connect. But art, art is the conduit, this gift I'm going to give you of this music, hopefully will bypass that, and my heart will be directly connected to your heart. There is something about your ability with that TED Talk, with that the words that I just referenced, where you have this unique ability to find the restraints, the human language to communicate it. I'm excited to see what stories you do choose to tell and how you choose to tell them, because it you have a unique gift in that regard.

[55:07] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Thank you.

[55:07] Laura Camien: I'm I'm glad to hear that there's you know some amount of of resonance. I think um what I've found, um, so I I think it's two excellent examples. You know, the the song, the lyric that I just mentioned is from a song called What is Left, which is also the song that I played in that particular TED Talk. Um and then the another song which has found a great deal of resonance with people is also the one that is um most prominent in um first free note, which is um holding out hope. And the there they're two great examples of uh uh so it seems to me that the story, like there's I think most of us have heard this idea that there's only fill in the blank number of stories. I've heard people say there's only seven stories, there's only four stories.

Personally, I think there's only one. And um, and the the one story is is loss in reconciliation, right? So it's either it's lost, you know, you know, we've been apart and we never come back together again, the end. We've been apart and we come back together, the end. Like it's literally about whether or not that's what it is. Like, we're going to be like these two things. There's one. Will the one be split? That is the question. And we watch and we listen to the story to see if the one will be split. And then when the one is separated, uh, the next question is will the the one be whole again? And and we watch and we wait and we see if the one will be whole again. And when it, you know, when it does is not whole again, we're left feeling uh saddened.

It was never whole again. Um, and when it is whole again, we're left feeling um refreshed or gladdened that yes, you know, it was whole again, but we can identify with both outcomes, frankly. And so if it's well told, there's always catharsis, and in the instance of these two songs, particularly, but in many others um like them, and I would say the the the best stories that I've managed to tell, there really was a matter of me kind of moving out of the way of what the story was. I think that uh, and they're very different. I would I would have said literally before holding out hope was written when I would speak about something like what is left.

[57:31] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I would just say if you just listen to the lyrics or you just look at them, it is really, really plainly stated. It is very, very plainly stated. Um, you know, that I'm I I would like to tell you something that's important, but I'm afraid you won't listen to me because of who you imagine yourself to be and who you imagine me to be. So I'm gonna ask you for a moment to set aside the things you imagine yourself to be, and I'm going to try and set them aside as well. And I would ask you for a moment to set aside the things you think I am, and I'm going to try and set them aside. And then I'm going to tell you this thing that's really important, even though I'm afraid you won't listen. And if you don't listen, I'm actually going to find that painful, but I'm going to do it anyway because it's that important.

So, and it's really that simply stated. And then, and I've I would have said, and I have said that it's because of the simplicity of the statement that the song resonates. Then, you know, fast forward years later, when I write holding out hope, which begins in much. And by the way, um uh uh um what is that literally happened in one evening? Like the whole song happened in one evening. I had a day, we're talking about deadlines. I had to turn, I had to get the song done before the next morning because the Carnegie program was coming in, and they were like, yo, you have to turn this in by Saturday. And it was on Friday night, two in the morning, and I'm like, man, if I don't get this done, they're gonna be so upset.

So, and it happened that quickly. And um, on the other hand, holding out hope, which also happened that quickly. It literally happened in the same way, and and and it started in the same way, which is um, you know, it and it starts as this idea of just sitting here thinking about these things and saying the things that I'm thinking about, and it seems as though it's going to begin, and it does begin in a very straightforward way, and then it becomes so by the end of it, it's becomes so metaphysical that I can tell you, Laura, Susan, I don't know what I am talking about. I don't know. When people ask me, hey, who's so and so-and-so? The prophet, who's the prophet? I'm like, I don't know who the prophet is.

I thought it was Jesus. I don't think it is, though. I don't know who the prophet is. I thought it was me. It's not me. I don't know who I don't even know when there's references to things, but those things resonate in a certain way because they might be different for me each time. And that's a beautiful thing. It's a wonderful thing. It's a mysterious thing. Even so, it was about me moving out of the way. It is easy for me when I look at those things to acknowledge that when people talk about having a gift, that they were a literal gift. Because I don't even understand them myself. I couldn't pretend to tell you what degree of crafting and expertise and whatnot. Fill in the blank. I'm sorry, that sounded my tone got dismissive as though I don't value those things, and I do.

But I also recognize that often the art that resonates most with us is a matter of um, I can't remember whether it was I want to say it was Michelangelo. I feel very confident in it, so I'm gonna attribute it to him. Why not? Anyway, um go for it. But he said, he he said that when he sees the stone, that the the the form is already there. It is a matter of him removing the things that are not the form. And he and that is what I feel as though all the most resonant art is. The form is there, the truth, the essence of it exists already. And it's a matter of me removing from it the things that do not belong, my fears and insecurities, and the fact that I'm terrified of submitting it and giving it and sharing it with Lauren Susan.

Um, you know, it because I mean they got a podcast. Who knows what's gonna happen? People are listening, but and it's um or or your inability to um you know, like when when oh my goodness, uh for a long time I wrestled with this myself. When the a certain song comes on, and because there's there's profanity or or even misogyny and and and glorification of violence and these incredibly, but if I get caught on those things, then I miss the fact that there's something else going on, like this is it's it didn't happen in a vacuum, and and so I miss a message of what might late be lying all the way underneath that is a person saying, I'm in such incredible pain, and it's crazy because it feels exactly like the pain that you're experiencing.

Isn't that weird, you know, or you know, and and but I got my issues, you know. I'm bringing all the things I bring to the table, and you're bringing all the things you bring to the table, and we're looking at this meal we got spread out, and I'm like, what is that? I'm not eating that. It's green, not eating that, not eating that. And so I don't so I don't get nourished. You know, you were in this program when you were in Sing Sing, and it sounds like you had crazy deadlines and people, you know, crazy accountability, and it sounds like there are times when you are blessed by in an evening, a song will visit you and come to you. It's a beautiful way of putting it. That visitation, yeah. When now do you have the time in your life and the accountability and the so and the space so that songs can come to you in this way?

[1:03:11] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Unfortunately, well, that uh that's a maybe that's not the word to choose because um a large um reason that I had that time was because I was incarcerated, right? So it was because for a certain amount of time each day, I had to be in a space that was six by nine feet and and not um, you know, and and for a good part of that time, I would say for twenty-four out of the twenty-five years, there was also no television. So um, well, that's not quite accurate. It's probably more like about 22 out of the 25, but and so, you know, uh picking up a guitar was not or or playing at the keyboard was not a um it wasn't a chore, it wasn't a work. I'm reminded of the song of um the city um now. And and he says I remember days when art didn't feel like work and um but I also can appreciate um that's that sometimes you gotta put the work in.

And so now, um, to my shame, I am not I'm not productive in in that context. Um I really haven't been well it's interesting, uh because I've only recently begun um like when I say recently, I mean three days ago. Or on a on a on a new piece. You're right on time. Yeah. You're right on time. You're right on time. On a on a new piece. And um it was because or is because um working with another program, um RTA um Rich Rehabilitation Through the Arts. It's another program I was working with when I was in incarcerated. And um they've uh we're we're having a a concert um or a musical production. I don't know what you call it in this age. And so we'll we'll record it and we'll um share it um with the world and um the theme is uplift and we were you know each of us was like well what song would we choose and and so as I began to think about it and so this kind of riff just was in my head and I'm like you know what if we and so I you know took the guitar down off the wall and start kind of playing it and now because I have to have it done so I'll probably write it this week because that's great because because Monday night is we have a Zoom meeting Monday night um you need those deadlines and uh and uh we have to announce it that's that's what it is my man Jermaine said I don't need mode time I need a deadline that's right to go that's right I have another question in regard to something else that we know you said um in the summer of 2020 I think it was about six months into the pandemic around that time you said we artists are the historians of this time so we have to compose this history now capture it and prepare it for the future and of course like Suze and I can't agree more like we've said we've been saying to anyone who will listen during this time like if you've ever wanted to write or create it would be a really good time to start you know taking some notes about how you feel and what this roller coaster ride is like and you know what you're experiencing.

[1:06:18] Kenyatta Emmanuel: So you said that you you haven't been writing as many songs but I'm curious to know have you been taking any notes?

[1:06:27] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah so that I've been doing um in a in a um because one of the uh one of the things when I was inside that we would always talk about is the ability to um record yourself to capture um you know audio and even video and so sometimes I'll just you know um just have conversations with myself on Zoom because it's where there's no one out no one else in the room in the Zoom room but me and um I found that to be a good idea, yeah. Because I have found that often I will have um an idea or something which I think is um significant in the moment, and if I do not capture it, it may come back to me, but it tends to come back a much, much longer. I mean, like it might be months and months, and and uh something will come and I'll be like, wait, I remember this.

I this bass line, and ah that it was from you know that day, you know, at that time when I didn't go through the trouble of of recording it. But now recording things is so simple. Like literally, just yeah, I just literally have an app on my phone and I'll just sing a little snatch of something or or say a little something that seems to capture um an idea, especially right now with just how um how disconnected we've become in in and how we all lament the connection. It's almost as though the things that we had deceived ourselves into thinking allowed us to be connected. When those things have been stripped away, we were like, oh my god, now we're not connected anymore. And then the the pursuit of that desire for connection sort of re-emphasized to us.

Because there was a time when uh I mean, if you wanted to go see somebody, you had to, y'all had to make a yeah, you and your family, y'all had to make plans. Exactly what I mean. Like there was a time when you wanted to see the buy a plane ticket sometimes. I'm talking about even even more than that. I mean, like there was a time when if you wanted to send somebody a letter, you put it in the hands of somebody and hope they get it to that place. You just have to you trust that that would happen. You might never get uh uh any sort of response, you know, or any sort of confirmation that um it was ever even delivered. Um so you know, now in this age of sort of, you know, we as artists just recognizing that, and you know, I'm out on my balcony, you know, uh with these these singing these songs, the equivalent of just you know, stuffing a scroll into a bottle and tossing it out into the ocean.

And it's I like that image, you know, and it's just um because uh somehow uh the attempt at connection is so in here. We we've always been doing it. So when we thought, you know, when we thought for a long time, m most of us that there's this entire generation uh of us that can't remember a time when it wasn't the way that it is. Um and we thought that those things serve to connect us, and they do, and we thought that those things serve to disconnect us, and they do. Now we become now we I think we've just begun to examine the idea of connection, and that makes us more human, I think, is that as we examine and realize that we have this need, we will we are not we are not satisfied, disconnected.

We are not so other we were it was able to just kind of be below the surface, right? Um, but now as artists, you have to make it again, quoting Stephen King, he's like, look, artists don't do what they do for money because if you didn't pay them, they'd do it anyway. If you made them pay for it, they'd pay you to do it. If you turn around tomorrow and made what they do against the law, they would sneak and break the law to do it. That's who and what they are. We have to connect in whatever our particular vocabulary and language is. That's because we're all one and when we're when we've been divided we want the answer to the question like will we become whole again? That's it. It's the story. Exactly. It is the story once again. Will w will the one be made whole is there Kenyatta a creative thing that you know you want to make or do or accomplish before you're done making things?

[1:10:57] Kenyatta Emmanuel: I wrestle with that. Um and I mentioned um Matt Moran earlier the uh whose uh his band Slavic Soul Party he's great yes Slavic Soul Party. And we and he he and I would have conversations and I would talk about just these different ideas of what I um of success as an artist. And you know he would always just kind of bring it back around to what the essence of artistry was and just and just help me to understand and just reaffirm for me that um being able to um uh provide for myself financially solely by virtue of my art um that is not success. I mean, well, no, well, I guess it would be success of a sort, but my point being that that is not the measure.

[1:11:50] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That is not the this the yardstick, if you will. Having that art be heard by as many people as I could imagine, it's not necessarily success. What is the thing? And what I would say is optimally, and this is the first time I've articulated this, although this is not the first time I've thought it, um, it just feels so freaking medical, you know, that I just whatever. But we're just gonna go ahead and spit it out, right?

[1:12:18] Laura Camien: Go for it.

[1:12:20] Kenyatta Emmanuel: If I could live in a place that is always removed, by which I mean myself, the thing that impairs the consistent delivery of the message of the story, the way that it comes through in those moments when I'm able to step back and let it happen. If I could live in that space consistently enough that it was my space of homeostasis, that it was the place that I lived, and the other things were departures from that, I would consider that to be successful artistry. I would consider that to be um worthy, if you will, of consistent communication, to be able to say to people, here is the journey that I took to arrive here, here is what I find consistently in this place, here is what I see, here's here's here's what I smell, here's what I hear, here is what it looks like here. And if I can in any way help you to navigate to where it is, you know, uh please amen.

[1:13:30] Laura Camien: Amen to that.

[1:13:32] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And the only that is amazing, and that is now going to be my answer for all questions like that. I feel like what you're describing, and tell me if I'm being too reductive, is if you could live with some measure of consistency in creative flow when it comes to creativity, like that's where you kind of want to be.

[1:13:56] Laura Camien: Even more than saying, Well, I hope before before I'm done, I'm gonna produce an Oscar nominated film, or I hope before I'm done, I'm gonna paint something akin to the Sistine Chapel. It's like, no, I hope before I'm done, I'm living in a place of fairly consistent creative flow.

[1:14:15] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That's right. Being fueled by that flow, right?

[1:14:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:18] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Just living in the flow. There's a commercial, um, a commercial with um the basketball player uh Blake Griffin. And so, like this person who's doing, I forgot what they're doing, but suddenly they're just in this weird place where all these incredible things are happening, and um someone and like he's just sitting on the couch reading a piece reading a newspaper, and the person says, What is this place? There's like someone who's jumping, um, and they're just people doing these incredible feats. There's someone playing guitar. He said, Oh, this this is this is the zone. And he's like, What? He's like, Yeah, and like there's there's an accountant there who's just like with numbers, he's in the zone.

And the person says, What? What this is the zone, he's like, Yeah, and he's like, uh, enjoy it while you're here. And then the person likes to find your way back. And yeah, and then they just and they just snap out of it and they're gone. But the idea that that Blake Griffin look up that guy is so good. The idea that he just lives so much in the zone that he's sitting there reading the newspaper. Reading the newspaper. That's what I want to do. I want to live in the zone, live in the flow.

[1:15:24] Laura Camien: That's that's phenomenal. That's a great answer. So just given where you are right now and how much work you have done on your creative process and how much thought you've given it thus far, do you have any good creative advice for us or our listeners?

[1:15:44] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That that question makes me feel like such a fraud. Um no, no, no, no, please.

[1:15:51] Laura Camien: How can we get to Carnegie Holmes?

[1:15:55] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Practice, practice, practice. Practice, practice, practice, right? I'm surprised the GPS didn't say that. Google navigate to Carnegie Hall. And it's like, are you serious? But um I would I would say, and this is actually something that um an actor friend of mine, when we talked about, we were exploring motivation, especially in acting, and as you explore characters and and why people do what they do, um, you know, in order to inhabit the character fully. Um the thing was that when you look at what the motivations are, you know, this person's motivated by a desire to have this, and so they want to move and they they go to get that thing, or the person's motivated by a desire to get away from this thing, so maybe feels the underlying thing, or whatever.

Um she would stress that whenever you because you get to choose what your motivation is, the action is dictated by the script. That's right, right? In life, I suppose the action is dictated by the script. But the reason for the action is not the only you know, the only that's internal. Only you know the reason for the action, the motivation for why you did it. And she was she would always say, if you can get to love, if you can find the love that motivates your care. So the character does it and if you can distill whatever their motivation is down to love, then you will find that every action that you take, no matter how absurd it might seem when you look at it on paper, every action that you take will be completely genuine and authentic.

And I think that That is great. It is the the same thing for art. If you can find if I can find the love if I can find the motivation that is the love if to say the thing I have to say to you or to connect to you in the way that I have to connect to you not just love for the moment or for myself or even for you but just for us to live in that love. I mean tall order I suppose but look for it and you'll find it.

[1:18:07] Laura Camien: It flows straight into our next question which we ask every guest on this podcast because so every guest on this podcast is wildly creative. Just so you know many of them also feel fraudulent even though there's so much evidence to the contrary but we always ask you know you've done all this amazing stuff you're living this amazing life what's it all for.

[1:18:18] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Oh yes oh it's all for love right I mean that's literally I mean again referring back to what is left you know that the the the the lyric says that um you know when when when they burned what can burn and stole what they can steal, what is left must be real. What is left must be love. That's it. That's all that when it's all said and done. Um, because all the other stuff is literally just a it's a distraction. It's a distraction from what love is. It's because of my my beliefs. Um it's it's an attempt by forces of that are not of love, by forces that do not that that that for whom love is anathema. It is literally an attempt to make you forget that love is central, to make you um to to allow you to let fear or hate or especially fear, fear's the big one.

Um, because really, another Stephen King quote, there's very little hate in the world, just fear masquerading in grown-ups' clothes. Just it's it's that if you can just even just forcefully or attempt to live as though you're disregarding those things. Love will push its way through, and it's what we'll be left with, and it's the only thing in the end that will actually endure.

[1:19:59] Laura Camien: I just am like, and there it is.

[1:19:59] Kenyatta Emmanuel: There it is.

[1:20:07] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. Can you tell us what is sparking you these days? Who or what is is inspiring you?

[1:20:16] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That's interesting. So I find myself um now inspired um by to just kind of this moment, if you will, it it seems to me that this is I I really hope that people don't feel like this is morbid. Um, but I feel like so many of us are so surprised by the horrible things that we are doing to each other that there's a part of me that is that feels like have you not been paying attention? Like we we treat each other horribly all the time. And so I feel like um I have a certain again, I would like I want to keep it at love. I want to keep it at the desire for us to be whole. But the fear that comes along with that is that as we move now out of the immediate um crisis, if you will, the the very visible crisis is perhaps more accurate, that we may um become distracted into thinking that the issues that that that that caused us to be here no longer exist and it's and go and go back to sleep.

And so I I feel like in this moment, if I can overcome my fear of fraudulence, if you will, um that I am tasked with sort of reminding us gently and but firmly, you know, as Chris Washburn did, we we if we allow ourselves to be motivated by fear, whatever it is that you think that person did that was so horrible, you'll do it too. We'll all do it because that's what fear will do. Fear will make us do horrible things one to another. Yeah. We have to we have to remember what it is that that draws us together, that brings us together. And that's not a sort of uh, you know, uh a whitewashing or this sort of placebo type of or or or this sort of hey, we can just be no no no no no no the accountability is important, all of these things are things have to be brought out into the light and be seen and acknowledged, but they have to be done with the motivation for love.

The the love has to be the motivation, not retribution or revenge or bitterness or resentment. It has to be motivated by the desire for wellness and the desire for love for myself and for you. I don't think any of us would ever, well, unfortunately, but we should never begrudge one another love. And I think that we can so that's that's what I'm charged with. And now that you've heard it, that's what you're charged with, too.

[1:23:08] Laura Camien: So yes, it's I'll take it. I'll take that challenge. Thank you so much, Kenyatta, for spending this time with us.

[1:23:17] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Thank you, thank you.

[1:23:19] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Thank you. This was great. I mean, man, y'all, y'all found the y'all found the key, y'all got the sauce, y'all figured out how to do this thing because this is great.

[1:23:28] Laura Camien: Listen, you're great. You're you're really you're a great person and a great artist.

[1:23:35] Kenyatta Emmanuel: And you're the like Camille said, you are the genuine article.

[1:23:39] Laura Camien: So right back at you. I appreciate it. And then I'm gonna say, did you read Stephen King's On Writing?

[1:23:45] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Um, yes.

[1:23:46] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That is where that is.

[1:23:47] Laura Camien: Oh my god, is that that is so good?

[1:23:49] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That book is so good. That book is so good.

[1:23:51] Laura Camien: Thank you for um, I think that's also a super hot spark. And whenever uh people ask me what books on writing, I recommend that is at the top of the list. It's such a good book.

[1:24:01] Kenyatta Emmanuel: It is, it really is that up, it really is. You're a you're a veritable bucket of sparks, manual.

[1:24:08] Laura Camien: Um, so that I think that's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on Muncie, Lenape, and Seminole Land. And we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen to me. If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that light, please email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast. Subscribe, rate, five-star review it. It really does help people find this. So if you liked it, share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, I don't know. Kenyatta, what do you say to your critics?

[1:24:57] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Yeah, something wrong with y'all, man. No, just kidding. Um, take it.

[1:25:06] Kenyatta Emmanuel: More love. Let's let's change it. Edit that to be more love.

[1:25:09] Kenyatta Emmanuel: More love. Spread love. Spread love. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You gotta take it and make it. Bye.

[1:25:34] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Thank you, guys.

[1:25:37] Kenyatta Emmanuel: Thank you so much.

[1:25:39] Kenyatta Emmanuel: That was great.

[1:25:40] Kenyatta Emmanuel: When I bumped into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark files. Spark file. I jump into my spark files. Let's open up the spark file.