This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Spark File, your one-stop pinch pop for creative inspiration. I'm Laura Camien.

[0:41] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are good questions, and we have got answers. A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, you know that sometimes the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry. We're here to refill it. We're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity. Things that inspire us to get up off of our tushies and make things like this podcast. Or a rock band complete with all the rehearsals and songwriting and music videos and live performances that go with it.

Or a grassroots web series that promotes an underdog musical and carries it all the way to Broadway. Or a depiction of the world's most beloved frog. Or a portrayal of the world's most dangerous frog. Ooh, on today's makersode, we're gonna talk to someone who truly sparks us. And that special someone is Matt Vogel.

[1:51] Matt Vogel: Thank you. Thank you. And now I can speak. Hello.

[1:54] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's what you said. Thank you for as you were saying your intro, which I didn't realize at first was the intro. I mean, I kind of had an idea a little bit into it. But at first I was like, oh, yeah, I've done that. Oh, that sounds like I relate to this. Yeah. Oh, this maybe I'll be able to talk about this.

[2:13] Matt Vogel: That's you, Matt.

[2:14] Susan Blackwell: I guess it is. We're talking about you.

[2:16] Matt Vogel: I guess so. Yeah, real quick, the spark file price of admission. You have to tell us a creative risk that you've taken recently. Can be anything in any way where you put something out there that was maybe not perfect, but it was progress.

[2:31] Matt Vogel: All right. Well, here's what I'll say. So I'm Kermit the Frog. I play Kermit the Frog.

[2:36] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[2:36] Matt Vogel: For the Muppets. And I've only been Kermit the Frog for two years. It's not a long time since 2017, right?

[2:44] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[2:45] Matt Vogel: And we, oh gosh, there's a cat fight. There's literally it's me and Susan. We can, we sometimes before you go for, before you go on, let's just paint the pictures for the listeners. We're in Matt Vogel's finished basement.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, rec room.

[3:00] Matt Vogel: That's right. There's cats fighting. Yeah. Flynn, first grade Flynn, first grade Flynn hanging with us. He's listening. He's gonna be editing all of this later, making it a lot of things.

[3:09] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's right. These are sound engineers.

[3:11] Matt Vogel: He'll be helping us.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: Sounds good.

[3:13] Matt Vogel: He counts the swears we say.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[3:14] Matt Vogel: And every time he gets a dollar.

[3:16] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[3:17] Matt Vogel: So I'm being very good because I curse like a sailor. I'm gonna do my best, Flynn. So about two years ago, I had the unbelievable good fortune to be named Kermit the Frog.

[3:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:33] Matt Vogel: For the Muppets. And it was, I mean, it's an unbelievable honor. Huge. Absolutely. Those are big flippers to fill.

[3:39] Susan Blackwell: But E F N not many people have filled those flippers.

[3:43] Matt Vogel: Not many, no. Yeah. So this thing that we did a couple of years ago, we did a show, a live show called The Muppets Take the Bowl. It was at the Hollywood Bowl, which is a huge venue. Awesome. And the thought was we're going to do a live Muppet show. And we're going to have the Hollywood Bowl Orchestra with us, and we're gonna just we're doing this huge Muppet show. Well, this was not long after I was named Kermit the Frog. And so this was going to be my debut as Kermit.

[4:21] Susan Blackwell: Do you have to pay into the swear jar for that?

[4:23] Matt Vogel: No, I didn't have a borderline check. Yeah. So I was going to judge note. Is that was that cursing? Debut. I think you're gonna get like a 50 cents.

[4:35] Susan Blackwell: He's like, I say but we were gonna do this show, and it was going to be my debut as Kermit the Frog. So that was a little intimidating. But it was a lot intimidating because it was 18,000 people. We were doing three shows over a weekend. It was a huge deal for me. It's a bit of an intimidating debut to make.

[5:03] Matt Vogel: Yeah. And so that was my debut as Kermit, and it was very nervous making. Yeah, very nervous making. Um, you know, I don't know how successful I was. I ended up just leaning into the fear of it. Yes, and and having a heck of a good time. That is a good idea. I had a great time, but that was something that I was like, I don't know how successful this is.

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, how does it manifest in your body?

[5:30] Matt Vogel: When I get scared, oh, I have anxiety. You can't say I get very anxious. So I am not somebody who sleeps all the way through the night. I wake up at about 4:30 usually, and I and whatever it is that's on my mind at that moment becomes the biggest deal and becomes a very fearful thing to me. And it's very hard for me to conquer that and get back to sleep.

[5:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, which is important. We all know that.

[5:59] Matt Vogel: Oh boy, do we need it? Yeah. And you have a very physical job, and yeah, yeah. So that's usually how the fears come out of me at night when I'm when I wake up at four in the morning.

[6:09] Susan Blackwell: That's a lot.

[6:10] Matt Vogel: Yeah. It is a lot. I mean, it's it's a it's a it's yeah.

[6:15] Susan Blackwell: Has it settled down now? You take a break.

[6:20] Matt Vogel: It seems like you've earned it. Relax.

[6:22] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. Relax.

[6:23] Matt Vogel: I it has relaxed a bit. I have the more that I do the character, yeah, the more confident I feel. Sure. There's like a great deal of just talking as the character, just like improv talking as the character, as any of the characters that we play, really. And the better I get to know the characters, whatever they are, whether it's Big Bird or whether it's Kermit, the better I become, the more true to the character.

[6:52] Susan Blackwell: It's in you.

[6:53] Matt Vogel: I mean, it's like the 10,000. 10,000 hours like that, except. I oh, I should say awesome. You are now admitted to the Spark file.

[7:00] Susan Blackwell: Thank you so much. Um you've already tipped, you've tipped your cards, but for people who don't know you, Matt, how do you identify creatively? If somebody comes up to you and introduces themselves at a cocktail party and says, What do you do? What do you say?

[7:15] Matt Vogel: I say I it depends on where I am, really. It depends on if you want to blow mine.

[7:23] Susan Blackwell: Right. Yes. It does, kind of. Because I sometimes I'll be like, well, I, you know, usually people don't.

[7:28] Matt Vogel: Do you just go into the voice?

[7:29] Susan Blackwell: No. Do you never go into the voice?

[7:30] Matt Vogel: No, you still try to get you. Can we just improv? Can you just do that for me now?

[7:35] Susan Blackwell: I would never ask. But Susan will be able to do that.

[7:37] Matt Vogel: So hi, hi. My name is Debbie. What's your name?

[7:40] Matt Vogel: Um I'm Matt. Hi. How are you? Uh I'm a I'm a manicurist. What do you do for a living?

[7:47] Matt Vogel: Well, uh, Debbie, I am actually thanks for asking. I'm uh actually one of the I work actually, here's what I do say.

[7:55] Susan Blackwell: What do you say?

[7:56] Matt Vogel: I go, I work on Sesame Street.

[7:58] Susan Blackwell: I leave it there.

[7:59] Matt Vogel: Yeah. And depending on the response, do you allow it? Because some people be like, oh, that's cool. And then they'll go back to their cocktail. And then some people will be like, well, what do you mean?

[8:09] Matt Vogel: Some people poop their pants. Yeah. And then I'm like, well, I'm one of the I I work on the show, I'm one of the performers. Like I give out just little tiny tidbits of the information. And then they're like, well, what characters do you play?

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: String of pearls.

[8:21] Matt Vogel: Yeah. And then when they say what characters you play, then I say, Well, you lay down the diamond. Big Bird and the Count and all of these other characters. And then I'll say, and I also work for the Disney Muppets, and I play Kermit the Frog and a bunch of other characters. And then I I mean, then that's I mean, that's that's kind of it. Also, I just want to say But they usually don't say, do the voice.

[8:42] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[8:42] Matt Vogel: But I'm not sure. Kids do though.

[8:44] Susan Blackwell: Kids do and Susan.

[8:45] Matt Vogel: Yeah, of course. I mean, that's about the same. That's the same category. Kids and Susan.

[8:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. Uh for I mean that in a good way.

[8:51] Matt Vogel: It's a good way. Yeah, I think that's good. Um the for the people who don't know, so you just mentioned that two years ago you became Kermit uh with the voice of Kermit. But you've been working on Sesame Street for a long time. Could you give us like a 60 second version of like how you got there?

[9:07] Matt Vogel: Yes. Of course. Go now.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: You want me to do it now?

[9:10] Matt Vogel: Okay. All right. Okay. So uh I when I was I grew up in Kansas City.

[9:16] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[9:16] Matt Vogel: And I never knew as a kid, I was a huge fan of the Muppet Show and of Sesame Street. I was a first generation Sesame Street watcher and a first generation Muppet Show watcher. And I built my own puppets out of masking tape and and t-shirts. And I'm I didn't know what I was doing. I was just making it up. Yeah. And but I and I didn't know that it was something you could do for a living. I think there was probably part of me that thought those guys do that. That's their job. I never thought that that was something that I could do. I'd entertain the kids in the neighborhood.

[9:47] Matt Vogel: This is gonna go longer than a minute, but I'll you can edit. Go for it later.

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: Would you do little shows for them?

[9:51] Matt Vogel: Yes. We would do shows. I made my brother help me, and he you know, he would play like all the girls' parts, and I would play all the guys' parts. I don't know why. But uh we would entertain the kids in the neighborhood, do PTA shows, whatever we were asked to do. And then it was like ProM.

[10:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[10:08] Matt Vogel: Pro M. Wait, what?

[10:10] Susan Blackwell: Professional amateur.

[10:11] Matt Vogel: You were like I was, yeah. When you're moving into PTA show territory. Yeah, you're you're m there's potential that you might make some money.

[10:17] Susan Blackwell: That's right. But uh then in here comes the sad part. When I was in ninth grade, I was in a talent show, and I my my dad had built the stage and I had written this show uh with uh with a teacher that we were gonna perform, and we performed the show at the talent show, and this was like this there were all the heavy hitters were at the talent show, like the girl who played uh Iron Man on the bass, and the guy who sang the journey sang um like faithfully because this is where we were like in 1980.

[10:47] Matt Vogel: So a rock tenor. Yeah. So I won that talent show. I won. And it was amazing to win.

[10:57] Susan Blackwell: With the puppets.

[10:57] Matt Vogel: Yeah, I did the puppets. Yeah, yeah. And through the cheers, I heard some booing. I heard boos.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: And uh that really affected me.

[11:07] Matt Vogel: It really were really voting for the rock tenor.

[11:10] Susan Blackwell: They were, they were they really wanted it. And they were sore losers. But Zach got through, and that's what you heard.

[11:16] Matt Vogel: Very much so. Of course. That was the thing. I don't know how loud the booing was. There may have been one person, but that was what I heard, and that is what affected me.

[11:24] Susan Blackwell: How me, how did that live within you? Like you carried that with you.

[11:26] Matt Vogel: Yes, I put the puppets away. I didn't do any puppet stuff. I was done with puppets. I was like, you know, up to that point, I had done stuff at school, and it was all very it was very just free and open, and I was able to create and do whatever I wanted to do. And and teachers and people and kids, they all supported that as far as I knew. And this one incident happened, and I shut it down.

[11:50] Susan Blackwell: Two thoughts. Oh my god. One is I have this when we teach, we talk about this moment that can happen. It can happen in middle school, it can happen in high school. It can happen at a lot of different uh sort of junctures in the life. But it's like you could be the most free-flowing, creative, self-expressed individual, and then you hear the boo through the cheers, and your creative conduit, like your garden hose gets kinked, and it can it can stay with you for a long time.

[12:19] Matt Vogel: Yes.

[12:20] Susan Blackwell: That I think is I think it's unfortunate. And I think it's like a very human, you know, it happens to a lot of us.

[12:28] Matt Vogel: It's very common. And it reminds me, we were just talking with Sara Bareilles, and she had a similar situation where she was playing a song she had written, "Water Dancer," for her high school classmates. And she knew by their response that it was no bueno, and she didn't write or share any of her music until she was in her twenties on the other side of the world. Years later. And it can be as big as like the feeling that reaction of the whole room or the reaction of one person's opinion of the thing.

[13:09] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[13:10] Matt Vogel: That's right. But what we're finding is that this is a theme in so many creative people's lives, but successful creatives have overcome it in some way or another. They have continued to say, okay, I'm gonna get that back out of the drawer, I'm gonna dust it off, and I'm gonna go for it. Or I'm gonna get the puppets back out, or I'm gonna go to Italy and start singing some songs again and do it nonetheless. How did you think about it? And here's how that happened for me. I put those puppets away, right? And I think my mom just sensed that I needed some sort of creative outlet. And so she signed me up for acting classes at this children's theater that was by where I lived. And it's because of my involvement in that children's theater over the next several years of my development.

It's called Theater for Young America in Kansas City. It used to be in Overland Park, Kansas, and now it's in Kansas City, Missouri, and it's in Union Station in Kansas City. Still thriving. Still doing great work, and they do classes for kids, and then they do professional equity quality shows that they bring the students or bust in to see. And I remember growing up there at that theater thinking, these are my people.

[14:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[14:31] Matt Vogel: These people get me. These people are my—so you stepped back into the catcher's mitt of safety. Like you—I don't know why I call it that, but I always think of my—the title of the show, fam, as when I got into that catcher's mitt of safety, that's when I was like, Well, I'm safe in this room with these people, and it allowed my garden hose to get unkinked again.

[14:52] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[14:53] Matt Vogel: Yeah, and I had that with these friends that I met and that I made very quickly at this theater and grew up with. And I didn't—I never brought puppets out, or I don't even remember mentioning that I had done this when I was younger. It was just now I was taking this new path, and I was able to be creative and be an actor. And that's why I went to Webster University in St. Louis. And that's what I did. And I actually, when I went to Webster, I did bring out puppets every once in a while. I had some that I had made, and I spent one summer with my roommate, Chad Harris, and we would go around to daycare centers and we would do a water safety puppet show. And that was one of the things I did during the summer.

[15:36] Laura Camien: Was that something that you did like volunteer or were you paid for that?

[15:39] Matt Vogel: I was paid for that.

[15:40] Laura Camien: You got paid, so you were going pro.

[15:42] Matt Vogel: Yeah, going pro slowly. And then the way that I finally got to Sesame Street was right before I graduated, I made a videotape for the Jim Henson company of me doing puppetry stuff. And I sent it to them and they sent back a letter.

[16:01] Susan Blackwell: Whoa.

[16:02] Matt Vogel: A rejection letter.

[16:04] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah.

[16:05] Matt Vogel: And said thank you for the case. Pause one second before you continue. But you sent that tape.

[16:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[16:09] Matt Vogel: You sent it. Like you—you made the—you tried. I think that's a beautiful moment. Go ahead.

[16:17] Matt Vogel: Yeah, I sent this tape. So I—and I don't know what made me do it. I think I knew that I was gonna be in New York. I'm a lifelong Jim Henson and Muppets fan. I was gonna be there for our senior showcase, and I thought, well, I should make a video because who knows? Because who knows? And I sent this videotape. And yeah, and then they rejected me.

[16:38] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[16:38] Matt Vogel: And I thought, okay, well, I'm going to New York to be an actor anyway. That's fine. So we moved to New York. And on our way to move to New York, my then-girlfriend, now-wife Kelly—shout out to Kelly.

[16:50] Laura Camien: That's right.

[16:51] Matt Vogel: She saw—in the backstage there was a picture of Kermit the Frog. It said, Do you measure up to be a Muppet? They were looking for somebody that was my height, my size, left-handed. So I answered the ad.

[17:03] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[17:45] Matt Vogel: And I said, I called them and I said, I'm not technically—I'm not moving to New York for another month. And they said, call us when you do. I was like, okay.

[17:45] Matt Vogel: Okay. We finally moved to New York. I answered that ad. I went to the audition. I met John Henson, Jim's youngest son.

[17:45] Laura Camien: Wow.

[17:45] Matt Vogel: I met him. I was the last guy to audition that day. And he said, You want to go to lunch with me?

[17:45] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[17:48] Matt Vogel: Yes, I do want to go to lunch with you, John Henson.

[17:48] Susan Blackwell: I just got chills.

[17:48] Matt Vogel: I mean, I'd been in New York for maybe a month. Not that long at all.

[17:48] Matt Vogel: I went to lunch with John Henson. We talked. I probably told him that whole story that I told you now. And then he said, Um, do you want to come up to my house for New Year's Eve? And I said, I do. I—yeah, I'm not sure. When these—like, do you want to go to lunch? Do you want to come to the house? Were you like, this feels like we're moving towards something?

[17:54] Matt Vogel: Like, do I have a job?

[17:55] Laura Camien: Uh, yeah.

[17:56] Matt Vogel: I mean, I hadn't—didn't have any job, I didn't have the job as far as I knew.

[17:59] Matt Vogel: Yeah. I just was like, I mean, how can you say no? I'm not gonna say no to John Henson asking me if I wanted to come up for New Year's Eve. You know, he was—and he was such a great guy. He was really, really great. And from there, I made another tape and I sent it in. And this time, the person that had sent me the rejection letter sent me a hey, we want to take another look at you kind of letter.

[18:27] Laura Camien: Nice.

[18:28] Matt Vogel: And they invited me to workshops to come in and do workshop puppet workshops, and—

[18:27] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[18:27] Matt Vogel: —but they were also vibing you. I mean, if you've made something, you now know not only they wanted to check and see if you had the technical skills, they were also assessing whether they wanted to see your face every day. Like, would you be a good member of the family?

[18:50] Susan Blackwell: I think that is—that's definitely something now.

[18:53] Matt Vogel: Look, now, being where I am now, yeah, and looking at the process and looking at how we do things, yeah.

[18:58] Matt Vogel: That is true. You do want to have—I mean, I'm the puppet captain on Sesame Street, so it's part of my responsibility.

[19:05] Laura Camien: Oh, aren't you a big deal?

[19:06] Matt Vogel: Very fancy word. I'm hoping to make it to Admiral.

[19:09] Laura Camien: Uh, but they give you a little Muppet epaulettes made out of the house.

[19:13] Matt Vogel: That'd be so awesome with the eyes on them.

[19:16] Laura Camien: Oh, that'd be great.

[19:17] Matt Vogel: But so, but now that is part of what we do, or it's part of what I do. When I'm told I need to, you know, look for new puppeteers. Yes, I want to find somebody that fits into the group that fits into our vibe that fits into who we are. And because we're a very diverse group of people, but there's something about us, there's an openness, an acceptance. Apart from being creative and funny and all the things that you need to have.

[19:47] Matt Vogel: And all those technical skills, all of those technical skills. All of it all wrapped up into—it's tough to find those kind of people. I like it.

[19:54] Laura Camien: Um, how do I get back to the puppets?

[20:03] Matt Vogel: That's right.

[20:04] Laura Camien: We need them down.

[20:05] Matt Vogel: Oh, look, Flynn, come here. Get on the mic and ask this question. Ask this. This is a good question. How did you get back on the Muppets when you shut them down?

[20:19] Flynn: You mean how did I—how did I bring the puppets out of the closet again?

[20:23] Matt Vogel: Yeah.

[20:23] Flynn: That's a really good question, Matt. Thank you for asking. Put on those cans, we call those cans. Good job. My son doesn't know me or anything about me. I've not told him my life story before.

[20:33] Matt Vogel: Okay, so that's a great question. So I didn't—I didn't take the puppets out of the closet for a very, very long time. Um, because I was scared. I wasn't—I was—I didn't feel confident to do that.

[20:49] Matt Vogel: Yeah. I felt like there was another thing that I was supposed to do, and I was—and actually had a great time being an actor and doing that. I had a great time doing that. Um, and then somebody had heard somehow, I don't know, at college, they said, I heard you have puppets. And I was like, Yeah, I guess I do. And they were like, Can you bring them to the freshman welcome orientation? And I was like, Yeah, and I was like, okay. And so I brought a couple puppets to the freshman orientation. I was a sophomore, and that's kind of when I brought them back out.

[21:17] Laura Camien: Can I tell you something? This just makes me think of a story from my own life. So I was also obsessed with puppets when I was little and I had all the Muppet dreams. And I remember even saying to my former brother-in-law, he was—I remember riding around in the back of his car, and he said, What do you want to be when you grow up? And I said, I want to be a puppeteer. And he said, You can't make any money doing that. And it—I was just like inside, I didn't say anything, but I was like, right?

[21:47] Matt Vogel: Uh.

[21:47] Laura Camien: And then I was so—I would take puppets to—I remember going to like basketball games and other elementary school social events, and I was so scared that I would take puppets, puppets I had made, puppets I had bought, because I thought this is gonna kill. This is going to rock everybody's socks. Guess what didn't rock anybody's socks? Puppets. Me sitting in the bleachers at a basketball game fully as if I had an extra. I was making my—I was making my own friends.

[22:20] Matt Vogel: I know, yeah, that were on your hand.

[22:22] Laura Camien: Yeah, that was—yeah, I think I don't think I ever got the puppets back out though, but Matt, you did. You did. Was there enough time and space between the high school talent show episode that you were like, okay, I'll give this a spin. I've been safe with my—yeah, with my kindred people.

[22:37] Matt Vogel: Yes, and I feel safe. And I went to a conservatory of theater arts. I went to an acting school.

[22:42] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[22:44] Matt Vogel: So I was gonna appreciate it.

[22:46] Laura Camien: Yeah, they're gonna get it and understand and—and yeah, so I—and I kind of—I feel that—how do I even put this into words? It's very difficult for me sometimes to just talk to people that aren't my friends or the people that I work with or people that I'm comfortable with. I have to kind of put on actor Matt to be able to do that.

[23:11] Susan Blackwell: Why do you think I was sitting in those bleachers with a puppet on my hands?

[23:14] Matt Vogel: Yes, right. But I'm gonna do that. And so, and I—you know, we have five kids, they have friends, their friends have parents, and it is difficult for me to just have a conversation with somebody because I feel so foreign. I feel like I just—I— they're not gonna get me, or—and I don't know if that's residual from growing up and feeling that way, and it's just been with me.

[23:38] Matt Vogel: Yeah, or if I'm just, you know, you know, how do you feel when you're—how do you feel when you're at work and you're rocking the puppet? How do you feel then?

[23:46] Laura Camien: I feel totally confident.

[23:48] Matt Vogel: Do you feel free?

[23:48] Matt Vogel: And you know, there are times when I feel like I'm an imposter.

[23:52] Laura Camien: Sure.

[23:53] Matt Vogel: Because I can't believe that I am where I am.

[23:56] Laura Camien: Right.

[23:57] Matt Vogel: And I've worked very hard to get where I am.

[24:01] Matt Vogel: Yeah. But there's something in me that I'm like, somebody's gonna catch on.

[24:07] Laura Camien: Well, it's still that voice of like you can't make money doing that, or no one has this actual job. And now you're like, but I do have this job.

[24:15] Matt Vogel: Yeah, I never dreamed that I would be doing this, and now here I am doing it. And it is—and probably always was my dream.

[24:21] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[24:22] Matt Vogel: But I didn't know it yet.

[24:23] Laura Camien: I didn't know it. So when you started going to workshops, you obviously you were feeling you were building these relationships, and then you were at some point, you're in, you're on board at Sesame Street.

[24:35] Matt Vogel: Yes. And can you just quickly tell us all the various things you've done there, including your captaincy?

[24:40] Matt Vogel: Sure. Sure, sure. Hopefully, your admiralcy.

[24:52] Matt Vogel: Uh, every year we do the Sesame Street Thanksgiving Day Parade, and we're a part of it. And uh I think the very first year uh I was Bert. Because at that time it was Frank Oz that played Bert, but he was not gonna go do the parade, he was somewhere having Thanksgiving dinner with his family. So I was doing Bert and uh the guy that plays Telly, his name is Martin P. Robinson. He's uh Marty Robinson. Yeah, he was playing Telly, his character, and I had never I don't know that I'd ever met Marty before this morning. And we are in that for he's very funny, and especially as Telly, who's one of my favorite Sesame Street characters, and I'm playing Bert, and you know, you can pretty much yell whatever you want because the people down in the street can't really hear you.

And Telly is yelling. I would say stuff like hi, happy Thanksgiving, and Telly would say, Who? Who's that? You're not Bert, you're an imposter! This man's an imposter! And he's like, I mean, he was just messing with me. And it was hilarious. Uh busting. But that was my oh yeah, he was really. And that's but that's kind of what you do when the new guy comes along. But shortly after that, I got a call from that same person that had given me the rejection letter. I could have then accepted. Okay. And she said, Can you do a Big Bird voice? Oh, I don't know. I yes. Yes. Because I guess you're supposed to say yes, right? Sure. So sidebar. Sometimes I just like to make Matt Vogel say inappropriate things as Muppets.

We're not gonna do it on Mike. Sidebar concluded. And you tease Counselor. You were saying. So uh I got this audition. They said that Carol Spinney, who at the time was 64 years old, was looking for somebody to kind of um to train. Mm-hmm. And I met him, and I wasn't on Sesame Street yet. I was just a guy that was coming in and meeting him with four other guys that were on Sesame Street. Uh-huh. And um, I came in and met him, and the person introduced me. Her name is Rachet Renee Rochelle. She introduced me to Carol and she said, Carol, this is Matt Vogel. Matt Vogel this is Carol Spinney. And Carol Spinney went, Your name Vogel means bird. This might be the job for you. Oh my gosh. And like that's before the audition.

And I was like, oh no, great. So I did the audition. Carol did pick me and he trained me for 20 some years. He was, you know, he's one of my mentors on Sesame Street. And throughout that time, uh I would double for him or sub for him when he was playing Oscar and Big Bird was in a scene with him. Or I would do live appearances that he was unable to attend. Um throughout this whole time, that was 1996. Uh Carol just retired officially for season 50, which was this year. So he was on that show for 50 years.

[27:52] Susan Blackwell: Sidespark, there's a fantastic documentary that Matt, you actually appear in.

[27:56] Matt Vogel: That's right.

[27:56] Susan Blackwell: That chronicles his creation of that character. It's called I Am Big Bird. It's wonderful.

[28:01] Matt Vogel: It is really great.

[28:02] Susan Blackwell: And it really is a love story between Carol and his wife, Debbie.

[28:06] Matt Vogel: It is amazing. When we saw it in a movie theater, I uh openly was sobbing so loud that Flynn, it was uh embarrassing for me and everybody else. It's a wonderful, wonderful.

[28:21] Matt Vogel: It's really great. And um, and it really shows you who he is, who Carol is and who Debbie is, and his wife is wonderful. They treat me, they've always treated me like a son. They've always been so generous and kind with me. And so he was one of my mentors on Sesame Street. Another man named Jerry Nelson, who played the Count on Sesame Street, he was another one of my mentors, and I would assist him as the Count. I was his right hand, so literally his right hand.

[28:46] Susan Blackwell: Literally his right hand.

[28:50] Matt Vogel: So if you think of like uh the Cookie Monster, there's a dude that operates his head, and the left hand is his real hand is inside the left hand, so he can pick up cookies and eat them, right? And there's another performer that's in the literal right hand using their live hand to shove cookies in Cookie Monster's mouth. Well, I was doing that for the Count for many years. And Jerry, uh, as he grew older, uh, wasn't able to hold his arm up above his head, so I would have to do that, and I would have to sit on set live. Jerry would sit where you are, Laura, and he would have a mic on, and I would have headphones on like I have now, and he would live, he would deliver his lines live on set, and I would have to, we call it catching. I would have to catch the lines and perform them in a scene, like keeping the energy of whatever Jerry is giving or whatever's happening in the scene.

[29:41] Laura Camien: What a collaboration.

[29:43] Matt Vogel: It was a really cool collaboration, and I was able to really, I could hear I had him in my ears, and I could really, I could hear his breath, and I could hear him talk, and then I could I was able to catch him. It was amazing, it was a lot of fun, and so now he passed away several years ago, but I've now picked up that character in his absence.

[30:04] Laura Camien: That must be you all are so you work so closely together, literally embodying, working together to embody a single character. And I think when transitions like that happen, like his passing, that must be a really significant loss.

[30:19] Matt Vogel: It is, yeah. It's I mean, he was a very good friend of mine, and I only knew him for a handful of years, really, you know, from the 90s to when he passed away, but I felt very close to him. And I know there were other people on set that have I mean on Sesame Street, people are there and they stay there. I mean, yeah, there's a cameraman that's been there since day one. And he's still there.

[30:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:41] Matt Vogel: And when you we do feel it is a significant loss because there's that he was so creative, and Jerry, he had this amazing singing voice and a wonderful character voice. And the thing about Jerry that he did that I should mention, one of the things that I always say when I'm talking about Jerry is that he told me once, he said, uh, Matt, you know, being working with Sesame Street and the Muppets is great. It's fantastic. You'll be able to make money, you'll be able to educate children, it's all great, but you always need to have something that's yours. That is your own, that is apart from this. And Jerry did that. Jerry had he was a part of a band. Uh he made his own music.

[31:25] Susan Blackwell: We always like to ask our conversation partners to give us just like some good creative advice.

[31:31] Laura Camien: That is such good creative advice.

[31:33] Matt Vogel: It is, it really is. And that's and it's so true. I mean, you do, and that is the thing that now I pass along to other performers.

[31:39] Laura Camien: But you all, and you live it.

[31:40] Matt Vogel: And I do you always have, you are always making things that are yours.

[31:45] Matt Vogel: I try anyway. I mean, uh, you know, there are times when it's more successful.

[31:50] Laura Camien: Sure, sure, sure.

[31:50] Matt Vogel: It's not, but yeah, I do. Can you tell us a little about the other things that you consider yours?

[31:56] Matt Vogel: Sure. Well, uh I had a band. It's not really active anymore, although I like to pretend that it sometimes is. I had a band that a couple of guys in college and I, after we had moved to New York, we kind of got together and we just would get together every week and we would rehearse in a music rehearsal room. And I didn't know how to play an instrument or anything.

[32:14] Laura Camien: Is that true?

[32:14] Matt Vogel: I didn't know how to play anything. I didn't know that.

[32:19] Matt Vogel: I didn't know how to play the bass. I was the default bass player in the Mighty Weaklings, our band. And because I was the singer, but uh, but no one else wanted to play the bass, so I had to learn.

[32:29] Laura Camien: Yes, I'll learn that.

[32:30] Matt Vogel: Yeah, and um, and uh I have had I mean we did we played out in New York City for uh years, you know, just every once in a while. And fun fact, fun fact the Mighty Weaklings actually perform the theme song to Side by Side by Susan Blackwell.

[32:47] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[32:48] Matt Vogel: Now in its tenth year on Broadway.com.

[32:50] Susan Blackwell: That's the Mighty Weaklings.

[32:51] Matt Vogel: Yes, that's the Mighty Weaklings. And so uh that is one of the creative outlets I'd say that I have that is writing music, and it has helped me in times of not just uh in times of um it's helped me in not only great times like just being with friends, but it's also been of uh it's kind of healed me a little bit. Uh my dad passed away in uh five years ago, and um it took a it's hard to process that losing a parent is is a thing that we all will go through, and it is you just don't know how you're gonna react to it.

[33:27] Laura Camien: That's right.

[33:27] Matt Vogel: Until you don't know what it's like until you've experienced it and about maybe a year after that I just started writing something like music I just started writing this song I didn't know what it was gonna be and I just kind of kept working on it and I just kept writing it and I kept adding to it and then it became like two ideas and then I think there was a third idea and then it became like this little this little record of three songs that I had made and they were all just different ideas that reminded me of my dad one was about my dad literally talking and and it's his voice. It's an interview that I did with my dad and I just set music to it and it just to hear his voice and to hear his laugh or to hear him talk in this way uh was is healing to me.

And then the other song is about his illness and and saying that he was gonna be there he would be there. He would try to make it past the fall but he didn't and that's what that song was kind of about. And then the third song is kind of this I don't know what it's called. It's called the it's um it's called the engineer is gone and it's it's just this my dad loved model trains. And so I just had this vision in my head of the people on the model trains uh not having the engineer to put them around the track I guess. I don't I think that's it's a song written from the point of view of the little people on the model. Kind of I mean not explicitly and I think I am the person on the train really my family that my brother and I, we are the guys on the train.

[35:01] Laura Camien: Do you feel like making those things? Did that help you process the passing of your father and grieve it's a little bit I think so, yeah.

[35:10] Matt Vogel: Yeah. I think it did. But uh, but it and I wasn't setting out to do it. It just kind of was one of those things happened. And I just it became these things. We talk about the um the idea of creating sometimes we are creating for other people, and sometimes we're creating for ourselves. Did you have any idea going into that process of like where it was gonna go, or just like I'm fine if I'm the only person who ever hears these songs?

[35:34] Matt Vogel: Yeah, and I probably am one of the only people that's ever heard it anyway. I mean, I put it out there just to be like this is a thing that I've done. Yes, I think yes, I remember you talking about that with me once. But it is something that I put out there, and I and I would I don't know that that was ever my intention, but I was I felt the need to share that.

[35:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, explicit.

[35:57] Matt Vogel: Something about my relationship with my dad, I guess. I don't I don't know what it is exactly, but I but I felt the compelled to do that. Had I not done that, that would have been fine too. But something compelled me to finish it and get it out there.

[36:08] Susan Blackwell: It taps into one of the reasons I really wanted you to be on The Spark File because I feel like you are a person who just lives and breathes creativity. You're just sort of endlessly living and breathing it in all different sorts of ways, shapes, and forms.

[36:29] Matt Vogel: Well, and I would say though, I have I feel like I work best in collaboration with other people. You know, I I don't I'm usually not the person that comes up with that initial idea, or if I am, I need somebody to bounce it off of and and to help flesh it out. That being said, those songs were literally just me.

[36:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:51] Matt Vogel: That but that's a rare thing for me, I feel like. I I feel like, yes, I'm creative, but I feel like I need the we call that you need to have your sponge pressed. Gavin Creole has this metaphor where from the outside you might just look like a dry sort of sponge, but if another person comes over and just presses your sponge, all this sort of creative goodness comes out of it. You just need to have your sponge pressed, honey.

[37:14] Matt Vogel: Yeah. That's all. I like that.

[37:16] Susan Blackwell: Do you?

[37:16] Matt Vogel: I do. I'm thinking about it. I want to like it. Sleep on it.

[37:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I want to like that. I want to like it.

[37:25] Matt Vogel: I see something and I'm like, ugh. I wanted to like that. I really wanted to.

[37:30] Susan Blackwell: Mattress. Is there a creative thing that you know you need to do before you're done?

[37:39] Matt Vogel: Nope. No.

[37:40] Susan Blackwell: Unexpected answer.

[37:43] Matt Vogel: No, no. I don't. You know, God. That's a really interesting thought that I don't know that I've ever had before. I mean, I'm so fortunate that I get to do all the things that I get to do. And I do consider myself an actor. I still consider myself an actor. I'm just an actor from, uh, as my colleague says, I'm an, you're, we're actors from the elbow up. And I've gotten to do some really, like for what I do, some pretty deep acting challenges.

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: And um, we also sort of listed the number of um aspects of creativity that your puppeteering work has afforded you so far. And this is what we know of. Um, you are a scripted performer, an improviser, a writer, a musician, a director, all within the capacity of your work at Sesame Street.

[38:46] Matt Vogel: Yeah. And so I wonder if that's part of this like fulfillment that you feel like that you do get to play with lots of sides of your creative brain.

[38:56] Matt Vogel: I do, yes. Sesame has been very generous to let me direct episodes and I'm the puppet captain for them, so I kind of help spearhead their talent, uh, the growth of their talent and then maintaining the current talent. And I do feel fulfilled in a lot of those different ways. I'd love to create a show. I would love to create a show. This is what I'm talking about. TV shows. Yes, I would love to create a show for the Muppets.

[39:22] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[39:22] Matt Vogel: Uh, because I think that's fun. Mm-hmm. Uh, I would love to create a show that's not for Muppets, but maybe, um, it just has some sort of, not necessarily, uh, maybe some sort of kid-friendly educational aspect to it. I think that would be great. Um, you know. These are good. Yeah, I'd like to do those things.

[39:45] Susan Blackwell: Do you crave um any more band work, some live stage performances of any kind?

[39:51] Matt Vogel: Maybe not with the band. I love, uh, seeing my band mates when I can.

[39:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:58] Matt Vogel: Um, but, uh, to get out there and do b, like a band thing is a lot of, that's a lot of work. It's a lot. It's hard.

[40:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[40:07] Matt Vogel: And you've got five kids. You know, I don't have the time. No, but I love to create. I'm trying to create new music when the mood hits me. And I just try to, I just try to do things when it's, I feel like you're keeping up with yourself in real time creatively, which I think is great.

[40:23] Susan Blackwell: It is great. I think I am. And I wouldn't be surprised if you did create those shows that are sort of somewhere floating around.

[40:30] Matt Vogel: I'm working on one or two of them.

[40:32] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[40:33] Matt Vogel: But you know, who knows? Who knows what happens? One of the things we're obsessed with on this podcast and in our lives, I think, are it's really how people process a perceived failure. We talked about the one in, you know, the talent show and the boo. But, um, since that time, have you faced any sort of challenges or failures, things you perceive to be a failure? And how did you process it?

[41:01] Matt Vogel: I I'm always aware that anything I'm doing with the Muppets or Sesame Street is being seen under a microscope. Got it. At the beginning of me doing this, like I'm only two years ago, and I thought, oh, I'm a failure. Right. But then I realized my job is to try to recreate a version of Kermit that I was instructed to recreate. That's what I'm trying to do, whether I fail or whether I succeed. That is my goal. I desperately want to be, uh, approved of and liked.

[41:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[41:41] Matt Vogel: But at the end of the day, I cannot let that be the reason why I'm doing what I do. Right. That's not the reason. We're just talking about this. What is the measuring stick for success or failure and who do you let hold it? Who do you let manage it? Are you defining it? Is, are your colleagues and your peers at Sesame holding it?

[42:01] Matt Vogel: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of it in with my colleagues because some of them have been doing it for longer than I've been alive. And some of them have been doing it for, and I trust them, and they're good friends of mine. And they knew Jim Henson. And they, you know, like they have been in it for a long time. Right. And then others are my age and they are my peers and they are my colleagues as well. And I trust them because they are amazing performers. And so when something goes right, or I feel like something goes right, and we, you know, we all kind of have that little celebration of it. I know that it's good. I know that it's good. I feel confident. Those are good measuring stick holders.

[42:40] Susan Blackwell: I think so. I mean, who less of the stick.

[42:42] Matt Vogel: I think it's less me going, like, that's I because I'm never gonna be satisfied with what I do. I will always, unless I just go, you tell me if you want me to do it again, I'll do it again. If you don't want me to do it again, I'm good. We're gonna move on because I will circle around and do it.

[42:57] Susan Blackwell: So you entrust the measuring stick to people who are in the arena who are doing the work who you love and love you.

[43:04] Matt Vogel: Mostly, yes.

[43:05] Susan Blackwell: Okay, good. I have to trust them. You know, I have to kind of give and that's that's what happens, whether it's our mu, whether it's the Muppet Rider, whether it is, uh, you know, the cameraman on Sesame Street, whether it's the guy, you know, that's playing Grover next to me. We all are so you are working in such tight collaboration with each other.

[43:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you would have to. And they're all qualified opinions, they're all people who have your best interests and the interest of the show at heart. So I can imagine that compassionate, constructive criticism is what they would offer.

[43:38] Matt Vogel: Like they, there's no good in breaking and then there's Marty Robinson, and then there's Marty.

[43:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you know, uh, the thing that I try to take with me that I learned a long time ago was hearing about how Jim Henson would work. And there are many, uh, instances of, uh, instances of Jim saying, uh, Jim always operated as the best idea wins. They were all in service of the best idea. Didn't matter who it came from, if it came from one of the other performers or the director or the cameraman or the janitor.

[44:15] Matt Vogel: It did not matter. Janitor Pete's got some great ideas. And Jim would listen to the idea. But Janet is also a Muppet. Just picture, picture. Because anyone can have that idea. And that's, and they would take that idea, and if it was good enough, then they would go with it.

[44:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I mean, they would, we, they would use it in something.

[44:33] Matt Vogel: I'm gonna jump to this, Matt.

[44:35] Susan Blackwell: Do it.

[44:36] Matt Vogel: What's it all for?

[44:39] Matt Vogel: As Kermit the Frog said, to make millions of people happy.

[44:45] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh.

[44:46] Matt Vogel: I think it is. I mean, I think that's why I enjoy doing this. To me. I enjoy doing this because I know that it makes people happy.

[44:53] Susan Blackwell: I get it.

[44:55] Matt Vogel: But hold on a second. It makes millions of people. Millions of people happy.

[44:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that part I kind of like to do. Wrap your mind around it.

[45:01] Matt Vogel: Yes. Listen, big boy. But if you're saying and we go out in the real world and we see people, we spent the whole summer going out to different, uh, cities across America, and we were meeting people that would come up to us and say, uh, you taught me how to read. Or oh, you taught me my numbers. Or you taught me how to be kind.

[45:21] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[45:21] Matt Vogel: Um, and that's when you really know that you're making an impact when somebody says, hearing you say that makes me so proud of you. I'm proud I was proud of you before, but it gave I got a little extra swell of pride. It makes me really love like your guiding principle actually came from like in the words of the character you play. It's so, it's like having an alignment of goals in a way, and the mantra, and I mean that's so Sesame Street that it is all so clear, it's all yeah together.

[45:53] Susan Blackwell: Um, can you share something? What or who is sparking you these days?

[45:59] Matt Vogel: Sparking me these days. Anything that, um, book you read, a movie you saw, um, an idea conversation with your wife bouncing around, Flynn.

[46:08] Matt Vogel: Flynn is a, is a, uh, constant source of joy and pride. He really is. He's such a little goofball. Yeah, he's the best. Um, anything really exciting. Some things I can't talk about yet.

[46:20] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[46:22] Matt Vogel: So I'm like trying to figure out like what I can because there is a, there is this thing that I can't literally can't talk about, but it is something that yeah something you're working on?

[46:30] Matt Vogel: Yes, yeah. And it's real, I can see by the look on your face, it's a really exciting and it keeps coming to the forefront.

[46:38] Susan Blackwell: We don't have to name it and you don't even have to describe it.

[46:40] Matt Vogel: Okay, you're not going to don't violate your non-disclosure.

[46:44] Susan Blackwell: It's my own non-disclosure. But did you originate this?

[46:48] Matt Vogel: No, someone I heard of met before had this idea, and we've been talking about it and we've been developing it.

[46:56] Susan Blackwell: How long have you been, uh oh for since 2017?

[47:03] Matt Vogel: Awesome. And every time we talk about it, we expand on it, and it becomes this, it's super cool, fun thing. And we just keep talking about it, and then when we talk to somebody about it, like when we're off the air, I'm gonna talk to you about it in a minute, and then maybe you'll be like, eh, or maybe you'll be like, oh my gosh. And, uh, it, it, it's infectious almost.

[47:28] Susan Blackwell: I can see us.

[47:28] Matt Vogel: Okay, great. Yeah, it is an infectious spark.

[47:31] Susan Blackwell: An unnamed spark.

[47:32] Matt Vogel: Yeah, so I love it. One day we'll know, and we'll come back and I really do. Remember that day in the basement?

[47:40] Susan Blackwell: So, man, thank you so much.

[47:42] Matt Vogel: Well, thank you for you being gentle with me.

[47:46] Susan Blackwell: Thanks for inviting us into your home.

[47:48] Matt Vogel: Yes, and letting us get up into your business. Um, that's it. I hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame, Matt Vogel, yes, and you'd like to share that. Why don't you email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[48:10] Matt Vogel: We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: Subscribe. Rate, five-star review it. If you like this podcast, share it with people you love. If you didn't like it, go listen to S Town. That podcast will blow your mind. And if you don't like that, we cannot help you. Go watch a rerun of Lawrence Welk. If something tickled your fancy today and got your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You gotta puppeteer it, you gotta shake spirit, you gotta do a magic act and full on disappear it. You gotta take it and make it.

[48:55] Matt Vogel: Bye, man.

[49:01] Susan Blackwell: You were talking to me that whole time, right?

[49:03] Matt Vogel: That's right. It was all for you.

[49:05] Susan Blackwell: Directly to you. Subscribe. We're not bumping into something that inspires me, I dump it in my spark files. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark files. I jump into my spark files. Let's open up the spark fire.