This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Meta Wagner: This is part one of our interview with Meta Wagner.

[0:02] Laura Camien: If you enjoy this conversation, be sure to visit thesparkfile.com slash five types.

[0:07] Susan Blackwell: That's thesparkfile.com slash the number five T Y P E S to take the quiz and learn what creative type you are.

[0:15] Laura Camien: Enjoy the show.

[0:16] Susan Blackwell: The Spark File Podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:20] Laura Camien: Please use your discretion.

[0:26] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:31] Laura Camien: Spark file.

[0:35] Susan Blackwell: To be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be, I pump it in my spark file.

[0:40] Laura Camien: Spark File.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my Spark.

[0:49] Laura Camien: Let's open up the Spark File.

[0:53] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Spark File, your one stop open book for creative inspiration.

[0:57] Laura Camien: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:59] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome.

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:05] Laura Camien: Where do I get one?

[1:06] Susan Blackwell: What do I file in it?

[1:07] Laura Camien: These are good questions.

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: We've got answers.

[1:09] Laura Camien: A spark file is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:14] Susan Blackwell: And if you're anything like us and you're making stuff all the time, you know that sometimes the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:22] Laura Camien: We're here to refill it.

[1:24] Susan Blackwell: We are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:30] Laura Camien: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:35] Susan Blackwell: Or a sought-after college course on creativity.

[1:39] Laura Camien: Or a book that helps others understand what type of creative they are.

[1:43] Susan Blackwell: Or a talk that brings a complex subject to life.

[1:47] Laura Camien: On today's Makerswind, we're going to talk with someone who truly sparks us.

[1:51] Susan Blackwell: And that special someone is Meta Wagner.

[1:53] Meta Wagner: Maida, welcome to the Spark File!

[1:59] Laura Camien: Send along.

[2:01] Meta Wagner: I am so happy to be here.

[2:02] Susan Blackwell: We're so happy to have you.

[2:04] Laura Camien: But before we continue, the Sparkfile Price of Admission, real quick, Maida, you have to tell us a creative risk you have recently taken.

[2:11] Meta Wagner: All right. I have one that comes to mind.

[2:13] Meta Wagner: I write for the Boston Globe opinion pages.

[2:16] Laura Camien: So fancy.

[2:18] Meta Wagner: I am.

[2:19] Susan Blackwell: Well, well.

[2:20] Meta Wagner: And I decided I usually write a little humorous, a little satire.

[2:25] Meta Wagner: And this time the whole gun debate was just getting to me.

[2:29] Laura Camien: Wow.

[2:29] Meta Wagner: And to go heavy very quickly, all the mass shootings.

[2:32] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[2:33] Meta Wagner: And there was a congressman in Ohio who suddenly, when his daughter, who thankfully didn't get hurt, but was across the street from one of the mass shootings, all of a sudden Mr. NRA became all about gun control measures.

[2:48] Laura Camien: Tell me more interesting.

[2:49] Meta Wagner: And I thought, you know, fantastic. And yet, does everybody have to be personally affected by it to care enough to do something about it?

[2:58] Meta Wagner: So I wrote a piece about that, and it was only after it was published that I thought, oh my God, there's a lot of crazies out there.

[3:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:07] Meta Wagner: And I'm writing about guns.

[3:09] Susan Blackwell: And big risk on that one.

[3:12] Meta Wagner: Yeah. But fortunately, I had kind of suppressed the risk.

[3:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:17] Meta Wagner: Until I kind of pushed through it.

[3:19] Meta Wagner: And then afterwards it kind of hit me like, who knows what kind of feedback I'll get?

[3:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:23] Meta Wagner: Anybody can find anybody these days.

[3:25] Laura Camien: That's right.

[3:27] Meta Wagner: And did not receive any horrendous comments, but a few touchy ones.

[3:32] Susan Blackwell: So I'm glad I did it.

[3:33] Laura Camien: Do you have any tips or tricks about how you could because you're doing work?

[3:37] Meta Wagner: Uh I feel like when you're writing for a newspaper or newspapers that like you do, people really like to comment.

[3:47] Laura Camien: And sometimes their comments are very informed opinions that differ from yours.

[3:52] Meta Wagner: Sometimes can you just before we let you into the sparkbile, can you just take a second?

[3:57] Meta Wagner: How do you do you read the comments?

[4:00] Meta Wagner: Ah, that's a very good question.

[4:02] Meta Wagner: So what I found out from Boston Globe editors was that most people, the vast majority who comment online do so after the headline, which the writer does not even write, or the first few lines.

[4:16] Laura Camien: So if you can tell because of the they can see like the scrolling actions, right?

[4:21] Meta Wagner: Yes.

[4:21] Laura Camien: That's right.

[4:21] Meta Wagner: And and probably the quickness for too clicked on this, made a comment.

[4:26] Meta Wagner: There's no way you read that article.

[4:28] Laura Camien: That's right.

[4:28] Meta Wagner: So it's discouraging in the sense that hopefully people like, hey, I took so much time writing.

[4:34] Meta Wagner: Crafted it.

[4:35] Meta Wagner: And sometimes I'm doing a little switcheroo in the intro to get your attention and then kind of shift it around and you're commenting before I made the shift.

[4:44] Meta Wagner: The um so there's that aspect to it, but those are only the people who make comments, and people only make comments generally if they're negative, and occasionally if they're highly positive.

[4:57] Laura Camien: But the vast majority of people don't actually bother to comment.

[5:01] Meta Wagner: So do you contextualize it in that way?

[5:03] Meta Wagner: And that's how you get through the night.

[5:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[5:05] Meta Wagner: I've reduced this is how I read comments now with one eye closed.

[5:10] Laura Camien: Just in case like it's like watching a scary movie through the a blanket.

[5:14] Meta Wagner: Totally.

[5:15] Laura Camien: But you do read them, which is interesting.

[5:18] Meta Wagner: I try not to.

[5:19] Meta Wagner: Yeah, but sometimes.

[5:21] Meta Wagner: Often because they're not mean or anything, they just like they didn't get it.

[5:24] Meta Wagner: And then I think, oh, I thought it was so clear, or and then yeah, it sort of hurts.

[5:29] Meta Wagner: But it's yeah, I I can't seem to get myself not to read them.

[5:33] Meta Wagner: Yeah, even though I don't think it's very healthy to do so.

[5:36] Laura Camien: So it's interesting phenomenon.

[5:38] Meta Wagner: I I feel that pull because we ask, we'd have a call to action in this very podcast where we ask people to rate and review our podcast.

[5:50] Laura Camien: And we actually ask them to five star review it if we're honest.

[5:53] Meta Wagner: But um been there, they're not shy.

[5:56] Meta Wagner: There's there's a part of me that like the a curious kitten that wants to go up on iTunes and get a little dose of validation, but that's that cuts both ways.

[6:10] Laura Camien: And so I have resisted the temptation.

[6:13] Meta Wagner: Oh, absolutely.

[6:14] Meta Wagner: Well, we'll be talking about my book, and I go on good reads, um all over the map, but occasionally somebody will just give like a one-star with no comment.

[6:24] Laura Camien: And I'm like some really mean librarian.

[6:27] Meta Wagner: Maybe you thought it was two.

[6:29] Laura Camien: Could it really be I've only gotten a couple of those, but I was like, that must have been a mistake.

[6:34] Meta Wagner: I like the way you think.

[6:36] Meta Wagner: Surely that wasn't intentional.

[6:38] Laura Camien: Oh yeah, yeah.

[6:38] Meta Wagner: So a lot of self-protectiveness.

[6:40] Susan Blackwell: It's safe to say that you've been admitted to the Spark File.

[6:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[6:44] Meta Wagner: Well done.

[6:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you're in officially.

[6:47] Laura Camien: Made it for people who don't know you.

[6:49] Susan Blackwell: Can you tell us how do you identify creatively?

[6:53] Meta Wagner: I identify as a writer above all else.

[6:56] Meta Wagner: I have done painting and drawing and some music in my life, but writing was always my great passion from a very young age.

[7:04] Meta Wagner: I used to get up on Sunday mornings when my parents and my sister would still be asleep, and I'd be up like writing little poems and keeping them in a little shoebox.

[7:14] Laura Camien: And were you encouraged by your family?

[7:17] Meta Wagner: Yeah, you know, I really was.

[7:19] Meta Wagner: And studies that I have studied show what an impact that makes.

[7:24] Meta Wagner: And my parents who would not have considered themselves creative were all about it.

[7:30] Meta Wagner: Um all about your work or all about creativity?

[7:33] Laura Camien: All about my work, which was really fantastic.

[7:36] Meta Wagner: You know, sending me to arts day camp and do you think that has something to do with the fact that they weren't and therefore they wanted that for you?

[7:45] Meta Wagner: Did they ever express that?

[7:46] Meta Wagner: They didn't express that, but I think that's absolutely true.

[7:49] Meta Wagner: I used to notice my mother when she was on the phone at night after dinner, would be like doodling, but it would be you know, like geometric shapes, things like that that were like a little piece of art.

[8:00] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[8:01] Meta Wagner: But I think in the generation they grew up in, that's a luxury.

[8:04] Meta Wagner: That's not oh yeah, something, you know, they had to go into practical kind of careers, and that's right.

[8:09] Meta Wagner: I don't think it's something that would have occurred to them even.

[8:12] Laura Camien: I love that.

[8:13] Meta Wagner: And I am I uh likewise I'm grateful, and I feel like w sometimes we get to stand on the shoulders of our parents who advance each generation.

[8:22] Laura Camien: Absolutely, so that we can do this work.

[8:26] Meta Wagner: Yeah, aren't we privileged?

[8:28] Laura Camien: That is a huge privilege.

[8:29] Meta Wagner: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[8:31] Laura Camien: In addition to the things you said, you're also a teacher.

[8:34] Meta Wagner: Yes.

[8:34] Laura Camien: Do you view where do you teach?

[8:36] Meta Wagner: I teach at Emerson College in Boston.

[8:38] Laura Camien: And what do you teach?

[8:39] Meta Wagner: And I teach creative writing, I teach journalism, and I teach a course that I developed on creativity.

[8:46] Laura Camien: So do do you view your teaching as a creative act, or do you view it as being a guide for others' creativity?

[8:55] Meta Wagner: That's a great question because it's absolutely both.

[8:58] Meta Wagner: I and you'll appreciate this.

[9:00] Meta Wagner: I think of teaching as performing.

[9:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:03] Meta Wagner: Sure.

[9:04] Meta Wagner: And you have to be up and you have to be on.

[9:04] Meta Wagner: And you have to impact people.

[9:10] Meta Wagner: And I love it.

[9:11] Meta Wagner: I've stayed in touch with many of my students.

[9:14] Meta Wagner: I see it as a mentoring function also.

[9:16] Meta Wagner: I've become friends with some of them.

[9:18] Meta Wagner: One of them has been dating my son for the past two and a half years.

[9:21] Laura Camien: Fascinating.

[9:23] Meta Wagner: I hope it's a student you like maker as well.

[9:27] Meta Wagner: I love former student.

[9:29] Meta Wagner: They met at my book party and Sparks flew.

[9:33] Laura Camien: Picked a good one.

[9:34] Meta Wagner: So we're we're good.

[9:35] Laura Camien: No, I love it.

[9:36] Meta Wagner: It's hilarious to think I knew his girlfriend before he ever met her.

[9:40] Laura Camien: So it's a great story.

[9:41] Meta Wagner: Oh, that's neat.

[9:41] Laura Camien: I love that.

[9:42] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[9:42] Laura Camien: So let's be let's have some real talk.

[9:45] Meta Wagner: Let's have let's do it.

[9:47] Laura Camien: So we're here, we're backstage at the story gathering in National Tennessee.

[9:52] Susan Blackwell: I know.

[9:53] Laura Camien: We're sitting there backstages.

[9:54] Susan Blackwell: We're in the green room.

[9:55] Laura Camien: I know.

[9:56] Meta Wagner: And I made a I was blown away by the presentation that you made on the main stage yesterday.

[10:05] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[10:05] Laura Camien: Meta did not get to hear you.

[10:08] Susan Blackwell: And I'm most of our listeners didn't get to hear you either.

[10:11] Laura Camien: So could you just please do your presentation again, would you start first?

[10:16] Meta Wagner: Should I stand on the main stage and go through the whole thing?

[10:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, whoever's out there won't mind.

[10:20] Meta Wagner: I'll take the whole personal course right now.

[10:22] Laura Camien: Could you share a little bit with us about what you shared yesterday?

[10:26] Meta Wagner: Absolutely.

[10:27] Meta Wagner: So I was speaking on the topic of the five creative types, which is a model for creativity that I originated, pat on the back.

[10:36] Susan Blackwell: Yes, well done.

[10:38] Meta Wagner: That I teach at Emerson College, and that I turned into a book called What's Your Creative Type?

[10:44] Laura Camien: I love it when we were talking about this last night at dinner.

[10:47] Meta Wagner: You were saying you were saying these this was coming to you, this thinking was coming to you, this body of thought, and you were nervously Googling, like, has anybody and and look at you.

[10:59] Meta Wagner: I didn't find it.

[11:00] Meta Wagner: Pioneering.

[11:01] Susan Blackwell: So anyone who came out with it before me, you can see me now, but I think we're safe.

[11:01] Meta Wagner: I think we're safe.

[11:08] Meta Wagner: So yeah, it's a very cool concept to me.

[11:11] Meta Wagner: What it is is really that I looked at hundreds and hundreds of writers, painters, filmmakers, actors, etc., and was trying to figure out what made them them, you know, what made them a success.

[11:29] Meta Wagner: And was it just incredible talent, which not everyone can have?

[11:33] Laura Camien: Right.

[11:34] Meta Wagner: Was it, you know, pure dedication to the work, which most of us can try to have.

[11:40] Meta Wagner: And one after another, it got to me that it was as much about those two things as also about a clear understanding of why doing creative work is so important to them, why they're so driven.

[11:55] Laura Camien: So say the three things again.

[11:56] Meta Wagner: It's about incredible talent, incredible dedication and hard work, and a really clear, deep knowledge of why they're driven to do this work.

[12:06] Laura Camien: So it's like talent, hard work, and then purpose.

[12:08] Meta Wagner: The why, the purpose, yeah.

[12:10] Laura Camien: Is that something you're saying is a through line among all five types?

[12:15] Meta Wagner: Absolutely.

[12:16] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[12:17] Meta Wagner: What it came down to was kind of stumbling upon that discovery and then looking at, you know, really everybody is individual, of course, and has their own reasons, but I started to notice patterns.

[12:30] Meta Wagner: And I'm talking about studying everybody from Beethoven to Beyoncé to the Beatles.

[12:37] Laura Camien: I'm into the bees right now.

[12:40] Meta Wagner: And then you moved deeper into the alphabetic trying to think of somebody with a Z.

[12:49] Meta Wagner: Into, you know, George Orwell and Hemingway and Meryl Streep, really just so many different people who fascinated me in so many different fields.

[12:58] Meta Wagner: And different uh historical time periods.

[13:01] Laura Camien: Different historical time periods.

[13:03] Meta Wagner: And the sorts of things I would come across in their diaries, memoirs, biographies of them, um, in more recent times, obviously film clips, interviews, profiles of them, when they'd be asked, why do you do this work?

[13:18] Meta Wagner: Or it would just come out in conversation.

[13:21] Meta Wagner: They just knew.

[13:22] Meta Wagner: They knew why.

[13:23] Meta Wagner: And some of them knew from a very young age.

[13:26] Laura Camien: And so you always hear these stories, like let's say Dave Chappelle kind of, you know, practicing in front of the mirror, or you know, somebody like an Oprah, like she just knew at a young age.

[13:35] Meta Wagner: So not everybody knows at a young age.

[13:38] Meta Wagner: Yeah, not everybody has that immediate response of why do you do this kind of work?

[13:45] Meta Wagner: But think about it this way.

[13:47] Meta Wagner: Why are you so driven to do something that you may never get paid for?

[13:47] Meta Wagner: That you may never find an audience for, that no one, um, we were talking about parental encouragement, not everyone has that.

[14:01] Laura Camien: That's right.

[14:01] Meta Wagner: You might be bucking certain trends.

[14:04] Meta Wagner: Um you might have to, yeah.

[14:06] Meta Wagner: Culture, and yet you keep doing it.

[14:09] Meta Wagner: Most things in life, I mean, that sounds like definition of crazy, but yeah.

[14:15] Laura Camien: That's what creative people are crazy.

[14:17] Meta Wagner: That's my next book.

[14:18] Meta Wagner: Creative people are crazy.

[14:20] Laura Camien: I'm sure you have the available for pre-order.

[14:24] Meta Wagner: You've done all the research, so you know.

[14:26] Meta Wagner: I just have to look inside my own soul.

[14:27] Laura Camien: Can I ask a question about the so it resonated for me when you said, you know, these people who knew at a young age?

[14:36] Meta Wagner: Um, and my next thought was I feel like there's a group of people, and I put myself in this category, that I probably knew at a young age, got blown off course by something, by fear, a comment or a lack of support at a certain time period, or the lure of a comfort, uh, you know, a regular paycheck.

[15:01] Meta Wagner: Um, and then who get back on who decide like I can't push that voice down anymore.

[15:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, did you come across that?

[15:10] Meta Wagner: I'm testing in this theory.

[15:12] Meta Wagner: Yeah, no, I think that's really common.

[15:14] Meta Wagner: I know it's true in my own life.

[15:16] Meta Wagner: I started out in law school.

[15:18] Susan Blackwell: Say more about it.

[15:20] Meta Wagner: Oh you're like these I don't belong.

[15:24] Meta Wagner: This is not my place.

[15:25] Meta Wagner: I so don't belong.

[15:26] Susan Blackwell: Did you think it would be pleasing to somebody?

[15:28] Meta Wagner: Or you know, my mother had died when I was 17, and I went off to school, and yeah, um, yeah, super traumatic, obviously.

[15:37] Meta Wagner: Yeah, and I think I I don't know, I think I wanted that safety.

[15:40] Meta Wagner: I wanted a more predictable course in a way.

[15:44] Susan Blackwell: And after Did you have anybody at that time?

[15:47] Meta Wagner: I feel like when a trauma like that occurs, what a especially at a seam of transition in a life, it's um everybody's just doing their best.

[15:57] Meta Wagner: That's true all the time.

[15:58] Meta Wagner: Everybody's just doing their best.

[15:59] Susan Blackwell: But would did you have guidance, or were you sort of like, I'm guiding myself because everybody else is busy grieving and I'm pick this seems sensible.

[16:08] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[16:09] Meta Wagner: Well, you guys know back in the day, people just didn't talk about stuff as much.

[16:14] Meta Wagner: You know what I mean?

[16:15] Meta Wagner: Nobody was like, maybe should see a therapist.

[16:17] Meta Wagner: Let's process feelings.

[16:19] Meta Wagner: Talk about your feelings.

[16:21] Meta Wagner: And I really, and my own personality was um, you know, I had to apply to college.

[16:27] Meta Wagner: I didn't even have my driver's license yet.

[16:29] Meta Wagner: I hadn't graduated high school.

[16:31] Meta Wagner: I needed to like just stay on course to keep myself together.

[16:34] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[16:35] Meta Wagner: Made it through college, but you know, not easily.

[16:38] Susan Blackwell: Um did you remain uh uh that major, a law major, like in college, or did you switch?

[16:43] Meta Wagner: Oh, that was um no, I did a real artsy fartsy kind of liberal arts major.

[16:50] Meta Wagner: And then thought, what do I do now?

[16:52] Meta Wagner: Okay, let me do this thing that just feels predictable.

[16:55] Meta Wagner: And I was interested in social justice and using law in that way, but that's a very tiny percent of what lawyers do.

[17:02] Meta Wagner: And I I have to say, it's the only thing in my life I've done I just hated I hated it.

[17:07] Meta Wagner: Yeah, I hated every I felt like it's all analytical and memorization.

[17:12] Susan Blackwell: Um How long did you hang in?

[17:15] Meta Wagner: I foolishly hung in for over a year into that third semester and paid the uh me and my husband's student loan bills for the next two ten years.

[17:24] Susan Blackwell: Wow, yeah.

[17:25] Meta Wagner: But one year but I'm so thrilled that I figured it out, you know, and uh obviously I have friends who love being lawyers and all of that.

[17:31] Susan Blackwell: Of course, but for me, wasn't it's we're not mad at you, lawyers.

[17:31] Meta Wagner: We're not mad at you.

[17:36] Meta Wagner: We're glad we love you.

[17:37] Meta Wagner: Love what you do because we need you that you.

[17:39] Meta Wagner: Back to be.

[17:40] Meta Wagner: So your question about um I was the way I when you said they get blown off course.

[17:46] Meta Wagner: The image that always comes to mind for me is that we have this conduit that moves through us and uh our self-expression and our creativity moves through it.

[17:54] Meta Wagner: And sometimes the garden hose gets kinked.

[17:57] Meta Wagner: Like that some that something is said.

[17:58] Susan Blackwell: That's great.

[18:00] Meta Wagner: Um but so how does that to answer her question?

[18:05] Meta Wagner: Are there there are people obviously that find their way back to it?

[18:08] Meta Wagner: Well, it's interesting.

[18:09] Meta Wagner: What I've found is, and this is in one of the types we'll talk about.

[18:14] Meta Wagner: If you are sort of not encouraged or almost discouraged, that can be very defeating for certain people.

[18:22] Meta Wagner: Others, like George Orwell were kind of more of a I'll show you at it that's right.

[18:27] Meta Wagner: Underestimate me.

[18:28] Meta Wagner: Underestimate.

[18:29] Meta Wagner: I dare you.

[18:30] Meta Wagner: Exactly what I'm saying.

[18:31] Meta Wagner: I'm going to use this.

[18:32] Meta Wagner: I'm going to use that force and push against it.

[18:35] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely.

[18:36] Meta Wagner: He called it getting your own back on grown-ups who snubbed you in childhood.

[18:41] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[18:41] Meta Wagner: What did he call it?

[18:42] Susan Blackwell: Say it again.

[18:43] Meta Wagner: That's his British-y expression.

[18:44] Susan Blackwell: Got it, got it.

[18:45] Meta Wagner: Getting your back on, I guess means getting back at.

[18:48] Meta Wagner: Got it.

[18:48] Meta Wagner: And kind of proving them wrong.

[18:50] Meta Wagner: So that's a slightly different from your question.

[18:52] Meta Wagner: But you know, you do see um artists and even theater people who came around at it.

[18:59] Meta Wagner: Maybe they were in the background first before they came to the foreground.

[19:03] Meta Wagner: You know, there are backup singers who do what they love, but they really wanted centered stage.

[19:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, something has a name for that.

[19:11] Meta Wagner: Um standing close to the fire but not getting warm.

[19:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[19:16] Meta Wagner: So close.

[19:16] Meta Wagner: You could just maybe facilitate for other people.

[19:20] Meta Wagner: Maybe you shine, you know, Laura worked for a long time in PR, and me too.

[19:25] Meta Wagner: And you shine.

[19:27] Meta Wagner: You shine a light onto other people's work and the other people's creativity.

[19:31] Meta Wagner: And you are literally staying, you know, it's that what's it 13 feet from stardom?

[19:36] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[19:37] Meta Wagner: You are so close.

[19:38] Meta Wagner: You're standing next to it.

[19:39] Meta Wagner: Great documentary.

[19:40] Meta Wagner: You're on the red carpet.

[19:40] Meta Wagner: You're on the red carpet.

[19:41] Meta Wagner: You're at all the things.

[19:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:43] Meta Wagner: Like, yeah.

[19:43] Meta Wagner: I just saw a singer recently in Boston, Betty Lavette.

[19:47] Meta Wagner: I mentioned her in my book because she's an example of that background.

[19:52] Meta Wagner: And now she's, I don't even know how old she is in her 70s, maybe, and center stage in the spotlight.

[19:58] Susan Blackwell: So that's not exactly off course, but it's not where she wanted to be for decades.

[20:03] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[20:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[20:04] Meta Wagner: Fantastic.

[20:05] Susan Blackwell: Can you get into um the types?

[20:08] Meta Wagner: Types.

[20:08] Susan Blackwell: Can you tell us the types?

[20:11] Meta Wagner: Before you start talking, I would like to say this.

[20:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[20:14] Meta Wagner: You know how we walk around and we're like, I'm so special.

[20:18] Meta Wagner: I'm a unique, one of the kinder.

[20:22] Meta Wagner: When you I when you were talking yesterday, I was so excited.

[20:28] Meta Wagner: I loved every moment of what you shared.

[20:31] Meta Wagner: And I was also like, everybody can read me like a goddamn book.

[20:37] Meta Wagner: It was so predictable.

[20:39] Susan Blackwell: The truth is out.

[20:41] Meta Wagner: The truth is out.

[20:43] Meta Wagner: But I see enormous possibility in knowing what you're about to teach us.

[20:50] Meta Wagner: And ever since I heard you talk, my brain has been popping through the night into the morning about how we can make our work better by understanding this and expanding our approach.

[21:05] Meta Wagner: Excellent.

[21:06] Susan Blackwell: I love to hear that.

[21:08] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[21:08] Meta Wagner: So drumroll.

[21:12] Meta Wagner: So basically, when I had looked at these hundreds of creative people in all different fields, um, I started to notice these patterns.

[21:21] Meta Wagner: And even though they had very individual reasons and purposes, they seemed to me to fall into five specific categories.

[21:29] Meta Wagner: So one was people who create for ego satisfaction.

[21:33] Meta Wagner: And I'm talking about the primary drives, there's all sorts of secondary ones.

[21:37] Meta Wagner: Sure, I felt that.

[21:37] Meta Wagner: I felt a primary driver and then like a secondary, maybe a slice of a tertiary.

[21:42] Meta Wagner: Yes, absolutely.

[21:43] Meta Wagner: So ego satisfaction, just the joy and thrill of creating is the second one.

[21:50] Meta Wagner: The third one was wanting to express a lot of feelings and emotions and connect with people that way.

[21:57] Meta Wagner: The fourth one is wanting to shake things up in a particular field of art, do things differently, you know, break through boundaries.

[22:05] Meta Wagner: And the fifth one was to uh small goal, change the world through art, you know, really achieve social justice, maybe not being out there or voting and going to rallies, maybe, or you know, politics, doing it through art.

[22:21] Meta Wagner: And could art then motivate other people to take direct action?

[22:25] Meta Wagner: So those were the five that I started to notice.

[22:28] Meta Wagner: And I took those and I thought, what's a you know, kind of an easier, more fun, more pop culture way to talk about this, yeah, to be uh an entry point into this.

[22:41] Meta Wagner: And I made the ego-driven person the A-lister, and the one who's art for art's sake, the artisan, and the one who has a lot of feeling to express, the sensitive soul, the one who wants to shake things up is the game changer, and the one who wants to change the world through art is the activist.

[23:01] Meta Wagner: So those are the five creative personality types.

[23:04] Susan Blackwell: Didn't you don't you feel like you just got read?

[23:06] Laura Camien: I'm like I'm literally vibrating with resonance over here.

[23:11] Meta Wagner: Like uh I see her.

[23:12] Laura Camien: She is.

[23:13] Meta Wagner: She's a resonating and vibrating.

[23:15] Laura Camien: So will you talk now?

[23:16] Laura Camien: Will you share a little bit more?

[23:17] Laura Camien: Will you will you unpack a little bit more for each of those five types?

[23:20] Meta Wagner: Absolutely.

[23:21] Meta Wagner: I thought you'd never ask.

[23:23] Meta Wagner: I've been I'm so excited.

[23:25] Meta Wagner: I feel like Kami and had to go to the bathroom and miss this.

[23:29] Meta Wagner: I took a phone call, and then I was like, I'll wait until I hear applause and like go back in.

[23:33] Meta Wagner: And I was like, what happened?

[23:35] Meta Wagner: I was like, girl, I done just got my mind blown.

[23:39] Meta Wagner: Um an 18-minute mind-blowing.

[23:42] Meta Wagner: I was gonna go.

[23:43] Meta Wagner: But I was that's why I was so psyched to run into you last night and uh offer you this proposition.

[23:50] Meta Wagner: Practically pounced on you.

[23:52] Laura Camien: I think run into is quite accurate.

[23:54] Meta Wagner: Yes.

[23:55] Meta Wagner: I was there she is.

[23:56] Meta Wagner: I was really I'm gonna trust the universe.

[23:58] Meta Wagner: I'm going I almost slept out of my seat to find you, and I was like, don't be an insane stalker.

[24:03] Meta Wagner: Trust trust.

[24:05] Meta Wagner: But remember my next book, kidding.

[24:08] Meta Wagner: Creative is all crazy.

[24:10] Meta Wagner: So you you couldn't pull it.

[24:11] Meta Wagner: I think it's don't be an insane stalker.

[24:13] Meta Wagner: Don't be insane.

[24:14] Laura Camien: Oh, I love it.

[24:15] Meta Wagner: Now it's available for pre-order.

[24:17] Meta Wagner: So so start what's going on.

[24:19] Meta Wagner: Oh, right.

[24:19] Meta Wagner: So the first one is the A-lister who's ego-driven.

[24:23] Meta Wagner: Ego driven could be anything from, you know, you want applause, you want those positive comments when you have the courage to look at the comments.

[24:32] Meta Wagner: Feedback, you want to feel like you're making it in the world.

[24:36] Meta Wagner: Maybe you want uh, you know, commercial success and the infinity pool and the Maserati.

[24:42] Meta Wagner: Is it fame too for people who are like, I just picture myself famous, no matter what that means.

[24:48] Meta Wagner: Picture myself famous, large Twitter following, Instagram star, whatever it is.

[24:55] Meta Wagner: All those sorts of things, but it's deeper than that too.

[24:59] Meta Wagner: Because I think sometimes it sounds pejorative.

[25:01] Meta Wagner: And I do poke fun at the A-listers in the book, um, even though I consider myself one because they are driven more so by making an impact on people.

[25:12] Meta Wagner: They want that kind of direct connection.

[25:15] Meta Wagner: A lot of performers are A-Listers, they want to feel like they made somebody laugh, cry, think, see things in the world.

[25:24] Susan Blackwell: Now I'm feeling this.

[25:25] Meta Wagner: I'm feeling a touch of this.

[25:26] Susan Blackwell: It's hard to be a performer without some of the A-lister in you, right?

[25:31] Meta Wagner: I wonder if it I hear the adulation part is validation in there too.

[25:38] Meta Wagner: So if you maybe didn't get that from parents, you're still trying to prove your worth in a way, and all these people might fill you up with validation.

[25:49] Meta Wagner: Absolutely.

[25:50] Meta Wagner: And with each of these types, I also have cautionary tales because it's for the A-lister, if you're too depend, it's it's absolutely fine to want that kind of applause and adulation and validation.

[26:02] Meta Wagner: I think most people do.

[26:03] Meta Wagner: Feels good.

[26:04] Meta Wagner: But to be overly driven by that and to be overly dependent.

[26:08] Meta Wagner: So say the negative comments I sometimes receive on my writing, if that crushed me, yeah, because all not all I cared about, but my primary drive was so tied to what other people think, that can be devastating for people.

[26:23] Meta Wagner: That really can.

[26:24] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[26:24] Meta Wagner: Or that can set you back.

[26:26] Meta Wagner: Debilitating.

[26:26] Meta Wagner: Debilitating.

[26:27] Meta Wagner: I think of it.

[26:28] Meta Wagner: So each type has kind of a shadow side too.

[26:30] Meta Wagner: But you have to be careful.

[26:31] Meta Wagner: I didn't get to talk about that yesterday.

[26:33] Meta Wagner: I didn't have time.

[26:33] Meta Wagner: But this reminds me of an interview I read one time with Madonna, who I feel like maybe an A-lister, would you think so?

[26:41] Susan Blackwell: I would think so.

[26:41] Meta Wagner: And she was saying this was later in her career, and she was talking about how the love she had had a dawning realization that this love and l I'm using quotes, love in quotes and validation, it's not real.

[26:57] Meta Wagner: It's not real love.

[26:59] Meta Wagner: But it took her I think some years to realize that it doesn't come with the real engagement and the real emotional nourishment that actual one on one relationships break.

[27:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, absolutely.

[27:13] Meta Wagner: But someone like Dave Chappelle says these are the most real relationships in his life, he feels with the audience.

[27:21] Meta Wagner: So it's interesting.

[27:22] Meta Wagner: And I understand that.

[27:23] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[27:23] Meta Wagner: He says like a love fest.

[27:25] Meta Wagner: I'm like a gladiator up there, and everybody's looking up at me.

[27:28] Meta Wagner: And he says, Nothing feels better than that that time that I'm on stage.

[27:33] Susan Blackwell: Um what you're saying about Madonna's interesting.

[27:36] Susan Blackwell: She's around the same age as me.

[27:38] Susan Blackwell: Or I'm this around the same age as her.

[27:41] Susan Blackwell: She's a wee bit more famous.

[27:43] Meta Wagner: Um of the aspects I talk about with the A lister is the need to remain relevant and how hard that can be.

[27:51] Meta Wagner: Oh my gosh.

[27:52] Meta Wagner: And when you've been at the pinnacle of success, as she has.

[27:55] Meta Wagner: And I I do think it's tougher in this industry for women, it's sort of like how do you keep that going?

[28:02] Meta Wagner: And you can see her trying to keep it going to some mixed success, I I guess I would say.

[28:08] Susan Blackwell: You shared that.

[28:08] Susan Blackwell: And it's hard.

[28:09] Meta Wagner: Yeah, it's hard.

[28:10] Meta Wagner: You shared an example yesterday as well, which to I to be frank really surprised me.

[28:15] Susan Blackwell: Because this is not a theater conference.

[28:17] Susan Blackwell: This is a conference for all types of create creatives and storytellers.

[28:21] Meta Wagner: And you shared the example of Broadway's Patty Lepone.

[28:25] Meta Wagner: Patty LePone who I love.

[28:29] Meta Wagner: I saw her in master class with my sister.

[28:32] Meta Wagner: And sure.

[28:33] Meta Wagner: I think it's the best thing I've ever seen in life theater, really.

[28:37] Susan Blackwell: Audra McDonald?

[28:38] Meta Wagner: Audra McDonald's.

[28:39] Meta Wagner: Yes, that's right.

[28:40] Meta Wagner: That's right.

[28:41] Meta Wagner: A young Audra McDonald.

[28:42] Meta Wagner: That's right, exactly.

[28:44] Meta Wagner: So the story I told was Patty LePone.

[28:47] Meta Wagner: You know, uh a friend had said maybe you should name the chapter Divas instead of A-Listers, but something about it I didn't like it.

[28:55] Meta Wagner: First of all, it's too gendered.

[28:56] Meta Wagner: The other thing is it sounds too I don't know, full of oneself, and I feel like women get called divas, and Patty Lepone does get called that, but it's because she wants to just give it her all every time.

[29:09] Meta Wagner: Leave nothing behind. And the story she was told, she was being interviewed on the radio, and the producer told her a story she'd been told of a mom who brought her daughter to see the show Gypsy.

[29:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[29:23] Meta Wagner: And the daughter was like a preteen, um, was not treating her mom very well, and kind of had her back to her a little bit. But when Patty Lepone sang Rose's turn, the showstopper, you know, everything's coming up roses.

[29:38] Susan Blackwell: Do you not make me sing?

[29:39] Meta Wagner: I'm not gonna sing it. The daughter grabbed onto her mother's arm.

[29:44] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[29:45] Meta Wagner: And the mom said it's like they were transported. That's how much they were both the daughter terrified.

[29:53] Susan Blackwell: She's formidable.

[29:55] Meta Wagner: Maybe she was terrified, not transported. That's why she was clinging to her. But it brought them together in that moment. It brought them together in that moment. They were so struck by it.

[30:05] Susan Blackwell: And Patty La Pone cried when she heard the story.

[30:08] Meta Wagner: And that's the sign of the A-lister that she wanted to have that impact. And she had that impact. And to you don't always get to know. So to be told that was so meaningful to her. And then I think about, you know, what about people who aren't performers and say are writers, don't get that immediate feedback necessarily.

[30:29] Laura Camien: So I was fascinated by an essay by Joan Didion called Why I Write. She named that after the George Orwell essay, Why I Write of 30 Years Before. And she calls I I don't know how familiar you are with the way Joan Didion looks.

[30:45] Meta Wagner: Yes.

[30:46] Laura Camien: She has looked frail and thin and bird-like has talked about her anxiety for you know the past 40 years. She says writers are secret bullies.

[31:00] Meta Wagner: And that writing is an aggressive, even hostile act.

[31:04] Laura Camien: And you look at her and you think, This woman has no aggressiveness in her. She's like a baby bird.

[31:10] Meta Wagner: She's like a baby bird. But I think my interpretation of that is you're getting to mess with people's heads from behind the comfort of the screen or the page. You're gonna love the characters she wants you to love, and you'll despise the ones she wants you to because she was talking about fiction, even not even opinion writing.

[31:30] Laura Camien: Joan Didion, an A-lister.

[31:32] Meta Wagner: It is A-lister, and you might not be able to do it. Or the creator, you create the whole world.

[31:37] Laura Camien: You create the world.

[31:38] Meta Wagner: You even like uh Tarantino's like uh Once Upon a Hollywood or whatever that his latest one was rewriting an actual event with a different ending. Now an entire generation of people will think differently about what happened, Charles Manson's gang. And it's like, wait, you you can do that? You get to do that?

[32:00] Laura Camien: The writer does.

[32:01] Meta Wagner: So that gets into the issue for A-listers of control, also. There's a movie, The Hours based on a novel about Virginia Woolf.

[32:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, Julianne Moore, Nicole Kidman, Meryl Streep.

[32:12] Meta Wagner: Meryl Streep. Yeah. And in it, um, and this is taken from Virginia Woolf's diaries. As she was writing Mrs. Dalloway, which is a fantastic book, she was thinking to herself, someone must die.

[32:27] Laura Camien: So someone she was she was a happy person.

[32:30] Meta Wagner: Someone just pockets filled with stones.

[32:34] Laura Camien: Yes, pockets filled with stones.

[32:36] Meta Wagner: Yes, waiting into the river. But she was controlling, she even changed, I won't give it away, who was gonna die, but someone had to die.

[32:46] Laura Camien: I love how you're giving no spoilers for Mrs. Dalloway.

[32:49] Meta Wagner: A book that's been available. Plus, I love it. Just in case everybody's rushing to the story.

[32:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:58] Meta Wagner: So this this idea of controlling the universe, like you were talking about. And as the author, maybe I don't have control in my own life. She certainly didn't entirely over her own mental health, which was very unstable, but this she could control.

[33:12] Laura Camien: So I think authors who are seem to be behind the scenes have that sort of ego of I'm creating the city.

[33:19] Meta Wagner: I relate to this too.

[33:20] Laura Camien: I do too. And I was thinking in a particular way, um, I think both, I think I can speak for both you and I. Um, when we were 20 years ago writing things for ourselves to do, it was a way not to control anyone else or you know, anyone else's world, but for us to control the outcome of like I'm not gonna wait for the phone to ring.

[33:48] Meta Wagner: I kind of have to. I didn't, it was almost like I'm not it's not resonating for me, the other like compulsion, but that does the idea of like, oh, I can have some control in my career, I can have some control in my opportunities by making this making them happen.

[34:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:08] Meta Wagner: Yeah. Does that fall into that?

[34:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:10] Meta Wagner: I don't know if I address that directly, but that makes a lot of sense to me. This notion of wanting to control maybe characters, fictional characters' lives, but also control um your own lives, your own creative careers.

[34:22] Laura Camien: Well, if you're a performer, I think it's very easy to feel a bit helpless.

[34:28] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[34:28] Laura Camien: Um like Leslie Odom was talking about, like when the phone doesn't ring.

[34:31] Meta Wagner: Right.

[34:32] Laura Camien: So what are you gonna do about it? You've got to one thing you can do is control that narrative.

[34:38] Meta Wagner: Right, exactly.

[34:40] Laura Camien: Okay, we've got number two.

[34:42] Meta Wagner: We're gonna we're we're digging into each one of these.

[34:45] Laura Camien: So much to say. So the second one is the artisan.

[34:50] Meta Wagner: And the artisan is the one who just loves what they do. It's not that they wouldn't like approval and applause and all that, but they're not gonna be able to do that. But it really is art for art's sake.

[35:01] Laura Camien: Art for art's sake and for the sake of their own satisfaction in doing it.

[35:04] Meta Wagner: The purity of the art form.

[35:07] Laura Camien: Okay.

[35:07] Meta Wagner: Yes, the purest. Now, this is interesting because when we when we teach the Spark File workshop, we talk about how there are a series of stations, the stations of the cross of creativity. But it is the sparks of inspiration. You have the fanning of the flames, which is the actual making, the art for art's sake. And then you have the sharing of the light, which is around communication.

[35:37] Laura Camien: And is it could is it true that the artisan maybe is less interested at times or weaker at that sharing of the light?

[35:48] Meta Wagner: It's I don't know if it's weaker necessarily, but I don't know. Some of them are not as driven by that.

[35:54] Laura Camien: Not as driven by us, driven by that.

[35:57] Meta Wagner: Yeah, you know, sometimes that's not the driver. Right. And you know, think of as we were talking about the background singer, the bass player, you know, they're not taking center stage or the proverbial, you know, writer who has all sorts of books hidden away that they never bring to a publisher.

[36:16] Laura Camien: But there's fear, there's fear that keeps people from sharing the light and the creativity.

[36:21] Meta Wagner: And then there's I feel like the artisan, it's like a choice. It's it's not as motivating.

[36:26] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[36:29] Meta Wagner: Yeah. Exactly. Fear can absolutely be a component of that. But I'm looking at it in a more um kind of a more positive way that somebody's got this devotion and dedication to something.

[36:42] Laura Camien: So the craft to craft making, learning new things, you know, the edge in you too.

[36:47] Meta Wagner: I yeah, in a documentary that he one of the years they went on tour, he wanted to do like a different new electronic sound for every single song.

[36:58] Laura Camien: That's right.

[36:59] Meta Wagner: That's what I think of as an artisan.

[37:01] Laura Camien: Or I just showed my students. Have you seen the documentary Finding Vivian Meyer?

[37:06] Meta Wagner: Yes.

[37:07] Laura Camien: So good.

[37:07] Meta Wagner: Right.

[37:08] Laura Camien: That's a spark.

[37:08] Meta Wagner: So good. So she never shared anyway.

[37:11] Laura Camien: 150.

[37:14] Meta Wagner: Amazing. She didn't even develop most of them.

[37:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:17] Meta Wagner: But it was the going out on the street with this little box camera, like a ninja photographer and photographer. Capturing, capturing, capturing images.

[37:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:27] Meta Wagner: She was a spark.

[37:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:29] Meta Wagner: Vivian Meyer was a spark recorder.

[37:30] Laura Camien: She really was.

[37:31] Meta Wagner: Sparcorder.

[37:32] Laura Camien: Yeah, she really was.

[37:33] Meta Wagner: I that's what I picture. Um, you know, it's stereotypical, probably, but I picture a craftsman, an artist, an artisan who's like um uh even the tin types. Um, I picture in my mind these people who are perfecting even an ancient artistic skill.

[37:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:55] Meta Wagner: And then in again, this is a story making up in my mind, but that they, if their work does sort of level up in the consciousness of the culture, it's because someone discovered them, not through their own doing.

[38:10] Laura Camien: It was like, okay, sure, sure, sure, you could put my work in your stores. That's fine. But I'll be here making it.

[38:17] Meta Wagner: And someone else is gonna say, no, no, no, this has to get out into the world. We're gonna put it in these galleries, in department stores, in whatever.

[38:24] Laura Camien: And the artisan is like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, that's fine.

[38:27] Meta Wagner: But I think that's very true. They're not great self-promoters.

[38:30] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:31] Meta Wagner: And not even interested. Like if someone else is going to be able to do it. Like if it happens, it happens.

[38:34] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[38:35] Meta Wagner: Yeah. That's what that's a very clear picture I have in my mind.

[38:38] Laura Camien: That's definitely right on the artisans.

[38:40] Meta Wagner: Yeah. So I tell the story at the start of the city.

[38:42] Laura Camien: Because they're not great self-promoters.

[38:44] Meta Wagner: She might not know them.

[38:45] Laura Camien: Right.

[38:45] Meta Wagner: Well, this one you do know, which is Emily Dickinson.

[38:48] Laura Camien: But what blew me away about her, which I hadn't known, was that she had written 1,800 poems.

[38:56] Meta Wagner: So it's sort of like Vivian Meyer with the hundred and fifty thousand photographs. 1800 poems and fewer than a dozen were published in her lifetime.

[39:05] Laura Camien: Wow.

[39:06] Meta Wagner: Did she not seek she didn't seek out being published?

[39:09] Laura Camien: Did someone else do it?

[39:11] Meta Wagner: She sought it out a little bit. And you know, she did receive some negative reviews because she was ahead of her time. And but she, you know, I know she's always called a recluse as starting to feel cliched, but perhaps she was.

[39:25] Laura Camien: She obviously didn't actively seek this out, but she was content.

[39:30] Meta Wagner: I hope she was content to keep writing away.

[39:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:33] Meta Wagner: And you would think sometimes maybe the Vivian Myers and the Emily Dickinsons don't know they're good. And so it's fear keeping them. In that documentary, Vivian Meyer, they they had a recording of her saying, I know these are good.

[39:48] Laura Camien: You know, and Emily Dickinson, to do it that much, there's an ego within the artisan, right?

[39:54] Meta Wagner: So you could say, actually, in a sense, the A-lister has that huge ego, but it can be easily deflated. The artisan doesn't seem as egoistic, but because they've got their you know, nose to the grindstone.

[40:10] Laura Camien: Is that an example?

[40:11] Meta Wagner: That is a thing.

[40:12] Laura Camien: That is a thing.

[40:13] Meta Wagner: And they're not dependent on outside validation. Maybe their egos are actually stronger.

[40:15] Laura Camien: Sidebar counselors, sidebar sidebar, side, side spark.

[40:21] Meta Wagner: It's occurring to me as I'm listening to you, and this is my this is why my brain has been popping since I met you. A great collaboration, a great long-term collaboration that really works, would be a-lister bringing together or some other combo platters of uh these five types.

[40:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:43] Meta Wagner: And I'm thinking right now, I'm thinking about Bono and the Edge and that little nucleus, that little twin nucleus, and how they have kind of complimentary types.

[40:54] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[40:55] Meta Wagner: Because I think Bono's an A-lister, am I wrong?

[40:57] Laura Camien: I would you know, I never say like somebody is because I wouldn't want to present. But yeah, it's what it looks like from the output.

[41:04] Meta Wagner: Yeah, yeah.

[41:05] Laura Camien: A-lister artist makes such great collaboration.

[41:09] Meta Wagner: If you you wrote the goddamn book, you can't say that we sound like Bernie Sanders.

[41:14] Laura Camien: I wrote the goddamn bell.

[41:16] Meta Wagner: But I I like this idea. And I actually think it's one of the things that um makes Laura and I, our collaboration strong, because I do think that we have some major overlap, and then we have some secondary and tertiary types in us that complement each other.

[41:36] Laura Camien: That are complementary, yeah.

[41:38] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[41:38] Laura Camien: So A-lister artisan is like kind of the classic collaboration.

[41:43] Meta Wagner: Yeah.

[41:43] Laura Camien: Because a lot of if you think of any rock band, even beyond you two, Metallica.

[41:48] Meta Wagner: It's hard to have two people soaking up the spotlight.

[41:52] Laura Camien: The Beatles were a grand exception to that.

[41:55] Meta Wagner: They really were that you could have two leaders, two co-songwriters, and have equal attention, equal adoration, equal success.

[42:05] Laura Camien: That's just this amazing, brilliant exception to the rule.

[42:09] Meta Wagner: A, they didn't stay together, and for you know, very sad reasons didn't we didn't get to see what might have come of that.

[42:18] Laura Camien: So it was a short-ish period of time.

[42:21] Meta Wagner: Right.

[42:21] Laura Camien: That's right.

[42:22] Meta Wagner: Prolific during that time but right third type third type.

[42:27] Laura Camien: Is this a drinking game?

[42:31] Meta Wagner: Should be when you hear your type just just take a shot.

[42:31] Laura Camien: Take a shot.

[42:36] Meta Wagner: When I bumped into something that inspires me I dump it in the spark files.

[42:45] Laura Camien: Spark files could be something that I want to make or how I wanna be a pump it in the spark files.

[42:54] Meta Wagner: Spark.

[42:56] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark file.

[43:00] Meta Wagner: Let's open up the spark file that was part one of our interview with Meta Wagner. Part two will be available next week unless you're in the future then it's available now.

[43:13] Laura Camien: So go on, give it a listen and find out what the last three creative types are. Also if you're enjoying this conversation be sure to visit thesparkfile.com slash five types that's thesparkfile dot com slash the number five T Y P E S to take the quiz and learn what creative type you are.