This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] The Spark File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:04] Please use your discretion.

[0:09] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:17] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark file.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark file.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:36] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparkfile, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't do it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:45] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, you are so very welcome. But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get a spark file? What do I file in my spark file? These are such good questions, and we have got answers.

[0:59] Susan Blackwell: We do. A Sparkfile is the place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, sometimes the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:13] Laura Camien: We're here to refill it.

[1:15] Susan Blackwell: We are, and we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity. Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:28] Laura Camien: Or a dynamic resource for understanding the varied roles on stage and offstage that work together to create and maintain a Broadway show.

[1:38] Susan Blackwell: That's a hell of a sentence.

[1:40] Laura Camien: Or a career in the arts spanning some of the most notable nonprofit and commercial theater organizations, fostering, developing, and championing new work by emerging artists.

[1:52] Susan Blackwell: That's a hell of a sentence, too.

[1:54] Laura Camien: In today's MakerSode, we're gonna talk to someone who truly sparks us. And that someone is the new executive director of the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center, Tiffani Gavin.

[2:06] Susan Blackwell: Tiffany! Welcome to the Spark File.

[2:12] Tiffani Gavin: Thank you.

[2:13] Susan Blackwell: Yay!

[2:18] Laura Camien: We're so happy to have you.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: We're just thrilled. So thrilled that you're joining us today. Oh, you know what? We're gonna start, I think, by asking you, where are you right now and how are you right now for real?

[2:31] Tiffani Gavin: I am at my kitchen table in New York City in Long Island City. And I'm yeah, and I'm I'm doing well. I mean, it's been really strange to be in my 725 square foot apartment pretty much exclusively since March.

[2:51] Laura Camien: How's your pandemic going?

[2:54] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah.

[2:54] Laura Camien: Are you sequestered by yourself? Is there anybody else in the space with you? Any pets?

[2:58] Tiffani Gavin: It's just me and uh my dog passed away a couple years ago. And I considered getting a COVID pet, as many people have done. But being a theater person, I had to keep in mind that if I was home all day with a new dog, when I finally started going to work, like theater people do, this poor dog would be so confused.

[3:24] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:25] Tiffani Gavin: So confused. I read a thing on Twitter where they were saying, if you have been living the COVID life where you've been at home, maybe you're maybe you're working remotely, maybe you're not working right now, and your pet is really getting into this, you need to start spending like an hour a day away from your pet so that you don't blow their little pet mind when you return to post-COVID life.

[3:49] Laura Camien: Just getting get used to not seeing me.

[3:52] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah. But you've been keeping super busy in your 725 square foot apartment. You've not been idle.

[3:58] Tiffani Gavin: I have. I have. I was reading an article about the fact that um quarantine was made for Gen Xers, that we're surviving it like no one else.

[4:14] Laura Camien: Wait, I think I read this.

[4:16] Tiffani Gavin: It's like because we're the latchkey kids.

[4:18] Laura Camien: It's a good idea.

[4:20] Tiffani Gavin: Like, oh, go home, don't answer the phone, don't answer the door. Um, if someone calls, say she's not available right now. Like there was some little jokes.

[4:29] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[4:30] Tiffani Gavin: And take the kids.

[4:31] Laura Camien: You can make us a few seconds right, exactly. But I need to read this article because it might explain why I'm like, there have been challenges during the pandemic, but by and large, I'm like, yeah, I've said this before on the podcast, but this little introvert is just like, hey, I'm into this.

[4:46] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah.

[4:47] Laura Camien: Yeah. I'm into this like quiet life.

[4:54] Tiffani Gavin: Exactly. I should say, fun fact, just up front, Tiffany and I knew each other like 20 years ago, I think.

[5:03] Tiffani Gavin: 20 years ago, we were both little itty bitty kids working at Blue Man Group at the same time.

[5:08] Laura Camien: So yeah.

[5:09] Tiffani Gavin: I actually cannot believe that our paths haven't crossed again in 20 years. Like given how small circles are.

[5:16] Laura Camien: Um, it kind of amazes me.

[5:18] Tiffani Gavin: It amazes me too.

[5:20] Laura Camien: But then New York is the is a strangely big small town.

[5:26] Tiffani Gavin: I mean, you think you'd run into people all the time, and then you get out of a circle and we like we've been in proximity because I've gone to shows at ART and knowing like you were probably there and we just you know didn't didn't see each other we just we just missed each other yeah ships passing in the night that's right and Tiffany I think you and I first met way back when because my first husband that's right kids my first of six was was a blue man and I think that's how I first met you it was either in New York or in Boston.

[6:06] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah and look at us now on the spark file here we are our 20 year reunion I love it I love it's right we'll see you again in another 20.

[6:16] Laura Camien: So we always begin with the Sparkfile price of admission. So real quick Tiffany can you tell I have such a big stupid smile on my face right now Tiffany can you tell us a creative risk that you have recently taken?

[6:19] Tiffani Gavin: Well I do I think taking a job out of state during a pandemic might qualify and not just any job not just like a really big job. Right running a theater center with a hugely diverse group of things happening.

[6:51] Tiffani Gavin: I mean it's not just shows being produced it's not just classes being taught it's a little bit of everything. So yeah and not having seen the institution really up and running and functioning the way it normally would ever makes it really challenging to figure out.

[7:14] Laura Camien: So what do we do next? How does this work? What does the summer look like? How do the conferences roll out? You know, how long is the semester?

[7:23] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah, I bet every question is like, how would you normally do it? Okay. And then how would how are you doing it now?

[7:29] Tiffani Gavin: And then exactly.

[7:30] Laura Camien: Yeah. So for folks who are just tuning in, Tiffany was recently announced as the new executive director of the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center in Waterford, Connecticut, which is friends, it's a really big deal.

[7:42] Susan Blackwell: It's really big job is a good idea.

[7:46] Tiffani Gavin: It's just like it's a huge uh not to me to freak you out, Tiffany. But it's a huge responsibility. Like it you're and to step into it during this time. But we're gonna crack into all of this. Tiffany, you are officially admitted into the Spark file.

[8:01] Laura Camien: That is a uh an amazing, significant creative risk.

[8:05] Tiffani Gavin: Thank you.

[8:07] Laura Camien: Um so for people who don't know you, how do you identify creatively when people ask you, hey, what do you do? How do you answer them?

[8:16] Tiffani Gavin: Generally, I I used to respond as I'm a theater executive or a producer.

[8:26] Tiffani Gavin: Yes, theater executive always seemed to cover everything because I I did so many things over the course of my career. Um so it I someone said to me once, you have the strangest resume.

[8:42] Tiffani Gavin: I thought tell me why they said that.

[8:46] Tiffani Gavin: Well, I started out, I mean, you know, my resumes evolved over the actual physical resume has evolved over time. So what has been on and what's dropped off and changed, but I started out as a casting intern at the New York Shakespeare Festival at the public theater.

[9:03] Laura Camien: You did?

[9:03] Tiffani Gavin: I did.

[9:04] Tiffani Gavin: I did. And can we back up even further?

[9:08] Laura Camien: That's uh uh where where did you grow up?

[9:10] Tiffani Gavin: I grew up uh in Narstown, Pennsylvania, which is a little bit outside of Philadelphia.

[9:15] Laura Camien: And did you go to school for theater?

[9:17] Tiffani Gavin: I didn't. Well, I I did you know theater in high school, and my mom put me in an acting class when I was six because I was an only child, and my mother being this I know she was this amazing person who um was an incredible musician, she studied music in college, she became a teacher, an elementary school teacher, and she realized that probably the best way to socialize an only child and to you know help her come out of her shell and have confidence was to put her in an acting class.

[9:52] Laura Camien: So when I was six, that's yeah, that's what she did.

[9:56] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah, she's she was amazing. So but you didn't go to college for theater.

[10:01] Tiffani Gavin: I didn't. I had done so much theater that I thought, well, I'll still do a lot of theater when I get to college, or I'll still, you know, do student theater, but I really want to study something else.

[10:13] Tiffani Gavin: Um, and it also made my parents a little bit happier until they found out what my actual majors were, and then they were like, What were your majors?

[10:24] Tiffani Gavin: Poetry.

[10:25] Laura Camien: Was it poetry?

[10:26] Tiffani Gavin: No, it was sociology and modern culture and media.

[10:31] Tiffani Gavin: Uh which when I wow, yeah, when I started in the department, it was called Semiotics. And then it got it got renamed Modern Culture and Media.

[10:41] Laura Camien: So, how did you end up in that casting office?

[10:45] Tiffani Gavin: I had a friend who, a friend of mine from college, my roommate actually, um, had family members that were professors at Tish. And at that time, Rosemary Tischler, who was one of the producers at the public theater, ran the Tish acting program. And she asked, you know, asked her friends if they would ask, if maybe I could interview, you know, I mean, just that, you know, that stupid you fell into it thing.

[11:18] Tiffani Gavin: And I uh managed to get really fell into it.

[11:23] Tiffani Gavin: I really fell into it, and then fell into it in a way that I didn't really know what to do once I fell into it, because I lived in Philadelphia and I could not afford to live in New York.

[11:35] Laura Camien: So what did I do?

[11:38] Tiffani Gavin: I I commuted on Amtrak every day from Philadelphia to New York.

[11:43] Laura Camien: You could afford that?

[11:44] Tiffani Gavin: No way.

[11:46] Tiffani Gavin: At the time it was really cheap. I mean, I mean, come on, this was like 25 years ago. It was a different thing.

[11:52] Laura Camien: What is that like two hours?

[11:54] Tiffani Gavin: Both. It was about an hour 45, an hour and 45 minutes. And you know, I took my little 45 check that you get as an intern.

[12:04] Tiffani Gavin: And um I have to share a spark with you that we just did on the podcast, which is have you ever read Underfoot in Show Business by Helene Hamp?

[12:15] Tiffani Gavin: No.

[12:16] Tiffani Gavin: She grew up in Philadelphia and could she couldn't afford she all she wanted to do was work in New York theater. And she had to take that train back and forth too.

[12:26] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[12:35] Tiffani Gavin: We're gonna send you a copy of that book.

[12:37] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh, I would love that.

[12:38] Tiffani Gavin: That is amazing. That's so crazy.

[12:40] Laura Camien: So you were making that track back and forth, Mike and Lanchard.

[12:44] Tiffani Gavin: I was. And then when I graduated from college, um, I think you know, you stick in someone's mind if you're the crazy kid who commuted every day from Philadelphia.

[12:55] Tiffani Gavin: So the general manager was looking for an assistant, and I came in to interview, and I was really lucky and I got the job.

[13:03] Laura Camien: And so that's kind of where it started.

[13:06] Tiffani Gavin: I worked on the public theater.

[13:09] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[13:09] Tiffani Gavin: And then I moved across the street.

[13:15] Laura Camien: Exactly where we all met.

[13:17] Tiffani Gavin: The company manage a blue man group.

[13:19] Laura Camien: And it really confused the guy who brought me my morning um egg and cheese on a roll.

[13:28] Tiffani Gavin: Because I went she's across the street.

[13:30] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[13:31] Tiffani Gavin: Just take her across the street.

[13:33] Laura Camien: Yeah. Oh, those were the days.

[13:37] Tiffani Gavin: Those were the days.

[13:38] Laura Camien: I recently learned that, and I I don't know why this was a surprise to me that bacon, egg and cheese on a roll is the number one sandwich in New York City, like the most ordered sandwich. And I didn't think of it because it's a breakfast sandwich, I guess. But I was like, remember in the years that we all lived in New York City, between Tiffany, Laura, and I get take a guess at how many bacon, egg, and cheese on a rolls we have ordered and eaten in our lives.

[14:04] Tiffani Gavin: It's so many.

[14:06] Laura Camien: Countless.

[14:08] Tiffani Gavin: It could be the official sandwich of New York City.

[14:10] Laura Camien: It could be the official sandwich of New York City.

[14:12] Tiffani Gavin: It could be the official sandwich of this podcast.

[14:14] Laura Camien: It could be.

[14:15] Tiffani Gavin: It could be.

[14:16] Laura Camien: But back to you.

[14:20] Tiffani Gavin: So you still you start in casting, you move into company management. For people that don't know what that is in the entertainment industry at a theater like the public theater or Blue Man, what is company management?

[14:32] Tiffani Gavin: So I sometimes I used to refer to company management as all the jobs that nobody else wanted to do thrown into one job.

[14:42] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[14:45] Tiffani Gavin: Well, yes. But you're sort of responsible for things like payroll and tracking sales and taking care of the care and feeding of the actors. Like all these things make sense together.

[15:01] Laura Camien: Sales and care and feeding of actors.

[15:05] Tiffani Gavin: And you know, um contracts, you prepare a lot of contracts, and the one great thing about it is that you get to work in all aspects of the theatrical process to some extent. You work with the actors, you work with the producer and the director, you're in the theater, so you work with the box office and the front of house. So you really get to see how the sausage gets made from being a company manager. So I do think that that was the best leap that I could have taken.

[15:38] Laura Camien: So if someone wanted to be like a theater executive, company management is like fertile training ground, right?

[15:45] Tiffani Gavin: It is very good training ground. You get to know what everybody does and how it all works and how it all fits together.

[15:53] Laura Camien: And okay, so you sort of it's sort of baked into what you're the way you're talking about it, but when you say it's sort of been described as all the jobs that nobody else wants rolled into one great big job. To me, it sounds so hard. It sounds so like the buck always stops with you. Like you are constantly problem solving. You are con you're the complaint department. Like it's a lot, but how did you like it?

[16:27] Tiffani Gavin: I mean it really a lot of it has to do with the people that you work with, because you know, if you enjoy the people, that makes all the difference. And yes, a lot of the buck stops with you. You report to a general manager, and so that general manager also takes a lot of the heat, but you're usually the conduit of that heat. Um and you're the you know, you're the on the ground person, the day-to-day person that people come into contact with, uh, that the cast and crew come into contact with on a daily basis. And because you're doing their payroll, you know, that's the there's a lot of discussion about that. My payroll's wrong, my check is wrong.

[17:11] Laura Camien: Oh my god. Did I tell you we did pay my agent? Yeah, where's my per diem?

[17:19] Tiffani Gavin: It sounds amazing. All the young people out there are just like, sign me up.

[17:24] Laura Camien: I don't want that job. But I can truly see how it flows into the work that you're doing now, and how is this is the job that you're in now, is it kind of a dream job for somebody like you who can handle the tough stuff and loves being in that leadership position?

[17:43] Tiffani Gavin: It is because for somebody like me that really likes the kind of management and administrative side of things, but also loves the artistic side, loves to read scripts, loves to have input in how shows are developed and you know early development and working with artists. You couldn't find a better model because it's a single leadership model. So you're kind of a part of all of that.

[18:14] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:15] Tiffani Gavin: Um you're using all the parts of your brain and you're using all the muscles, you're using all the muscles. And it didn't quite hit me until I don't know, maybe my second or third meeting, and we were, you know, discussing some issue, and it got really quiet, and nobody said anything, and I realized that everybody was bleeding for me.

[18:40] Laura Camien: It's my turn.

[18:42] Tiffani Gavin: Oh, right. This is where I this is where I'm supposed to tell you what to do. Oh got it.

[18:50] Laura Camien: That would make me that would keep me up at night and simultaneously make my shit myself. So not only would I be up at night, I would be shitting myself while I was awake. But you seem to bear it well.

[19:01] Tiffani Gavin: So in that moment when they were all when they all turned, looked at you, and you were like, oh, they're waiting for me to declare. Like, were you like, yes, or were you like, oh no? Did you know the answer? Did you were you able to say, like, here's what we're gonna do?

[19:18] Tiffani Gavin: I was able to, in the sense that any job that I have been in and I'm respond where I'm responsible for something, I am I'm willing to take the heat for anything that I tell you to do. So I'm not one of those people that tries to look to blame other people, or you know, I love a team environment, but I know that if when I step out and say, I need you to do this, or we're going to go in this direction, or we're going to don't do this, and I am the first person to say when someone looks at me like, uh oh, and I will be the first one to say, I'll take the heat. It's fine.

[20:02] Laura Camien: That's such a gift for all that is superpowers.

[20:07] Tiffani Gavin: It is a superpower. Just too many people are like so afraid of making mistake, and who will they blame and how will they explain that it wasn't really a mistake? It's like it's it's okay, I'll take it. And yeah, you know, I trust the thinking that got us here. And if it goes awry, okay, we'll be okay. And I make mistakes. I mean, everybody makes mistakes, and I make mistakes all the time. And I had before this, I was the manager at the Marquee Theater on Broadway, and I kind of got a little bit thrown into that job as well, not having um a lot of one on one training and just having to kind of make my way in it.

[20:49] Tiffani Gavin: And I remember getting called into the CFO's office because I had done something wrong on my settlement, and you know, I was panic stricken because I kept hearing, you know, this is so never get this wrong, you always have to get this right.

[21:04] Laura Camien: Oh man.

[21:04] Tiffani Gavin: I said to her, I was like, I'm really sorry that I made the mistake. I said, But the one thing that I am going to promise you that I will try, although I will continue to make mistakes, I will try never to make the same mistake twice. Um so that's what I strive for. I don't strive to be perfect, I strive to once I've learned something to retain it. Um I've always kind of used that as my north star in most jobs that I you can't put the pressure on yourself that you have to be perfect, you're gonna make mistakes, but the goal is never to make it twice.

[21:45] Laura Camien: I love what that does like for your team as well. I love like the permission it gives other people to learn as well and not feel scared of not knowing everything or making mistake or having to ask a question.

[22:00] Tiffani Gavin: Exactly.

[22:01] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[22:02] Tiffani Gavin: It's really in alignment with, I was just actually teaching at the O'Neill on this very day today that we're recording this. Um, and the ethos, it's on a sign when you drive up to the O'Neill, and I'll never forget like the first time I was up there, the headlights crossed over this sign. We pulled up at night and it says risk period, fail, period, risk again, period. And I was like, that sounds amazing. I wonder how you do that. Like I just didn't know at the time. I've studied on it since, so I have a better idea about it. But what you're talking about, Tiffany, I feel like um it's a good match for that ethos that is on the sign uh in front of the institution that you now lead.

[22:51] Laura Camien: Hey, wait, should we stop and say, for folks who don't know, what is the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center?

[23:04] Tiffani Gavin: I believe that they describe themselves as the launch pad of the American theater.

[23:12] Laura Camien: Just that.

[23:13] Tiffani Gavin: Um, but it is uh a it's a number of things. It's a theater center that within it has a theater conservatory, um, an accredited theater conservatory. So you get credits in college for your work there. Um, it's the National Theater Institute. Uh, it's celebrating its 50th year. And we have students from all over the country that come and train with the best of the best, among them Susan Blackwell.

[23:49] Susan Blackwell: I cannot believe they let me work with young people. Who's betting the teachers there? I seriously question.

[23:57] Tiffani Gavin: Um, you know, they're encouraged to risk, fail, and risk again. And it's been, you know, I have met a number of people that talk about how the experience really changed their lives. And even if they didn't become actors, uh, there are a lot of directors that have come from that program. And if they aren't directors, some people went into television or something completely different, but just the skills that they learned, they take with them everywhere. Uh, and then it's also uh the home of the National Play Conference, which develops new works uh by emerging artists. We do six plays a year, and we do them as staged readings instead of full productions. Uh so for over a four-week period, you're encouraged to write.

You get four readings of your piece with audiences and performances in between so that you can get feedback and write some more. And then we do the same with musicals in the National Musical Theatre Conference. So that's a lot of the development of new work.

[25:06] Tiffani Gavin: And I always think of the O'Neill as being the place that really taught theaters how to develop work. I mean, you know, the concept of what we refer to, you know, I Laura and Susan, I know you'll know the 29-hour reading, which is the thing that most uh musicals or plays will go through uh in their early development, where they'll spend 29 or 20 hours in rehearsal with a director, and they you know do a presentation either script in hand or you know, very minimally staged, no costumes, that sort of thing, but just to give the writers an opportunity to see their work in movement uh on its feet and to get that kind of feedback, and that's something that the O'Neill kind of started and discovered through the national.

[26:04] Laura Camien: Yeah, I mean, pretty much.

[26:05] Tiffani Gavin: I mean, it's just it's I didn't know that. That's fascinating. Their model is something that I think you know was how that kind of thing became shaped. You know, they started and now it's industry standards.

[26:22] Laura Camien: Yeah, now it's the industry standard.

[26:23] Tiffani Gavin: Wow.

[26:24] Laura Camien: Wow.

[26:24] Tiffani Gavin: Um, and so they also have added in the last, I mean, in well, 30 years, they 30 years ago they added a puppetry conference where it's a two-week conference in the summer where emerging puppeteers and uh, you know, highly trained puppeteers come together and share their work uh and show their craft, they make new puppets, they try new things, they learn from one another about different kinds of puppetry, and they come from all over the world. Uh there's also a National Critics Conference, and that is uh mid-career entertainment critics writers that come together and they hone their craft, learn from one another. Um, you know, they use some of the pieces that are being performed on campus as inspiration for some of their work, that sort of thing, just you know, just as exercises, not as you know, we're going out there and uh and critiquing your work.

[27:32] Tiffani Gavin: But they're gonna make or break this show.

[27:35] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[27:35] Tiffani Gavin: But they get to see exactly they get to see some of those shows and talk about you know, with one another about how you go about critiquing entertainment, live entertainment, that sort of thing. Um, and then there's the Cabaret and Performance uh conference, which is another two-week conference in the summer.

[27:55] Susan Blackwell: As you're saying this, I'm like, between all of those conferences, which are very diverse, and then the educational arm, which is the National Theatre Institute and the National Music Musical Theater Institute, like it is a lot of the minds of the American theater and puppetry and cabaret and criticism are passing through that campus.

[28:23] Tiffani Gavin: It's true.

[28:24] Susan Blackwell: It's really the scope of what you all do is pretty impressive.

[28:31] Tiffani Gavin: It's pretty amazing. I mean it really is impressive.

[28:34] Susan Blackwell: And you know Lloyd Richards was the artistic director of the National Play Conference for 34 years I believe.

[28:44] Tiffani Gavin: I think he's the longest serving artistic director there.

[28:47] Susan Blackwell: And in some ways he's responsible for kind of shepherding some of the best playwrights of the second half of the 20th century. I mean John Guare and John Patrick Shanley and August Wilson. I mean those are phenomenal people that we hear about you know legendary folks that have come through the O'Neill and we've continued over time to develop work. I mean Slave Play was developed at the O'Neill and it just got 12 Tony nominations. Um, In the Heights, yeah, show you know they're to the show that's right and and if we like as as you are catching on Laura and I are old friends of the O'Neill we did workshop title of show there I went back to develop another original musical called Now Hear This and as we met for one million years I have also been a teaching artist at the O'Neill at their National Theater Institute, including my work with the students today. Um, but I really have spent many late nights writing at the O'Neill and many early mornings teaching at the O'Neill. I have eaten in the cafeteria more than I can tell you.

[30:03] Susan Blackwell: And it's so great that you are there now, Tiffany. I think we're just super excited to see um what you do with your O'Neill chapter and how you lead there.

[30:18] Tiffani Gavin: Thank you. We're excited for you, but we're equally, if not more, so excited for the O'Neill to have you.

[30:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:26] Tiffani Gavin: No, I think it's gonna be incredible. I'm really excited too. I really, you know, it's a right now, most of most of what we have to concentrate on is you know, keeping ourselves afloat and getting through the pandemic and trying to deliver as much of our content as we can. We've been really lucky to be able to have uh NTI this fall, although at a reduced capacity, and to also uh, you know, we'll have it in this in the spring as well. And so now we're trying to make plans for the best way to support our artists uh in the National Play Conference, National Music Theater Conference over the summer.

[31:09] Susan Blackwell: Um yeah. Well, this this leads to our next question, which is with the pandemic, with politics doing what they're doing right now, with this movement of social change and the social reckoning that's happening. We are in the midst, just as human beings, we are in the midst of a lot of rapid change, not to mention the theater community, the United States, globally. And we're curious what it must be like for you to step into managing this globally recognized arts organization during these unprecedented times.

[31:46] Tiffani Gavin: It's really a challenge. I mean, what else can I say? I mean, I think challenge for anyone, but definitely a challenge. It's um there are a lot of eyes on everyone and everything, especially the theater, um and how you know the theater's gone through, I guess, somewhat or uh a reckoning about the work that it chooses, about the artists that they work with, um the diversity of it, uh, and and how we approach teaching theater all of those things. And when you're at an institution like the O'Neill that does it all, you definitely feel like you're you have to start thinking about all of those things all of the time, and with all of your programs, and with uh so it it is very much a priority, and then also finding new ways to deliver theater, knowing that it's hard for people to gather.

Um, and although we're not dependent on audiences the same way that some of the presenting theaters are, because our audiences are coming to see staged readings and they're much smaller. The tickets that you know, the price of tickets are lower. Um, it's still something that is part of the Waterford community, the New London community that they miss and that they want to be a part of, and trying to deliver things and keep them engaged virtually and um and hopefully maybe this summer using some of our outdoor spaces. We really want to be able to do that. Um so we're very focused on trying to keep all the balls in the air all at the same time, and everyone's been committed and supportive and supported, you know, supporting the whole move forward.

But you know, you won't want to come in, you know, and have a big vision and have the big idea and implement the big idea today. But the reality is is that I'm lucky that we're getting to operate, yeah. And yeah, I'm lucky that I'm able to lead this organization and have a job at all in this climate. So um, so I have to keep I keep a notebook of you know, I keep kind of like yeah, of big ideas, yes, yeah. Yes, exactly.

[34:25] Tiffani Gavin: Um, because I don't want to feel you know hampered. I don't want to feel the weight of oh, but you can't have a big idea, but knowing that it's gonna it's gonna take time.

[34:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. This is a this is such a basic question, but I always like to ask people like you who have positions of enormous responsibility. How much sleep do you require in a night?

[34:53] Tiffani Gavin: I love sleep. I heart sleep. I love sleep. When I was in kindergarten, I used to come home with a note taped to me that said Tiffany was a good sleeper, a good napper.

[35:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh and it's like wraps into your identity.

[35:12] Tiffani Gavin: I am a good sleeper. It's wrapped into my identity. So I like to get between eight and nine hours.

[35:21] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[35:23] Tiffani Gavin: Yes. That's my ideal. I don't it it goes in waves. Sometimes I sleep really well, sometimes I don't. You know, it a lot of it has to do with what's going on in my life or in the world. I find that through the pandemic it's been difficult because I'm not moving around enough.

[35:45] Tiffani Gavin: Um I find, you know, just sleeping, I'm not tired enough.

[35:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you haven't worn yourself out enough.

[35:56] Tiffani Gavin: You haven't built up that sleep pressure.

[35:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, exactly.

[35:59] Tiffani Gavin: And working, you know, my brain gets tired. And so I sometimes just want to lay there and not think. But the actual sleeping part has been a little bit more difficult.

[36:09] Susan Blackwell: As you are um digging into this role, and it's crazy because you're learning this role while you are in the midst of this just bananas aug rotten time. But uh are you seeing things, any cool possibilities coming to life regarding the future of theater? Are there any exciting ideas that are hitting your Spark file?

[36:31] Tiffani Gavin: I think so. I mean, I I haven't been watching a lot of uh zoomed content. Um, but every I've watched a couple of readings via Zoom, and I found them to be very effective.

[36:50] Susan Blackwell: So the idea of being able to do some development via Zoom is something that I think we might be able to take with us, continue on.

[37:02] Tiffani Gavin: I think you're right. I do think you're right. We've talked so much on the podcast and in life, just how when we get to a post-pandemic time, whether that's after a reliable vaccine comes out or this cloud has moved past us, there's so much change that has occurred that is going to remain with us. And I think what you're talking about is one of the pieces that could be really, really cool.

[37:28] Susan Blackwell: I agree. It's baked into the process that you could actually, without having to fly everybody to Waterford, Connecticut every time, you could actually get some really great, exciting work done via Zoom.

[37:44] Tiffani Gavin: That's that is a good idea.

[37:46] Susan Blackwell: And uh, you know, how much fun is it now to have a really reason to have to teach a student how to audition on camera, audition on Zoom.

[37:57] Tiffani Gavin: Um yes, it's so funny. I was teaching O'Neill students to an on-camera acting class on Zoom the other day, and I was like, this is actually great, friends, because we don't have to imagine we don't have to roll in a camera into the room with a monitor. We can you can actually see right now in real time when a look passes across Rachel's face.

[38:23] Susan Blackwell: Just a look passes across Rachel's face, or Rachel looks down and tries to surreptitiously text with somebody.

[38:31] Tiffani Gavin: You don't have to do much. And we see everyone it registers on camera. It's it's this is a weird thing, but it's actually true. Teaching on-camera acting over Zoom, there's uh there's a lot of uh many blessings in that because you can make points very easily and it's very real and very immediate.

[38:49] Susan Blackwell: It's true. It's so cool.

[38:51] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah. And I hope that people take away from Zoom the ability to connect. I don't think that I connected this much with some people, you know, um in a in a visual world. I mean, this is you know, just a kind of you know, more personal than professional, but I know I have friends all over the world. I have a friend in Scotland that I have known for 20 years, and we didn't start video chatting until the pandemic.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, you got accustomed to that technology, yeah.

[39:31] Tiffani Gavin: Because you you got really good at the tech.

[39:33] Susan Blackwell: You got really, really good at the tech.

[39:34] Tiffani Gavin: Exactly. We're really enjoying that as well. We're getting ready to host our annual New Year's workshop, and typically people would have to get to New York to be able to attend.

[39:46] Susan Blackwell: And now people from all over the world can just zoom right on in.

[39:51] Tiffani Gavin: We're so excited to hear, you know, we have some listeners um in Scotland, some listeners in London, and they're you know, they're already signed up. We're like, this is amazing because you know they wouldn't have been able to come otherwise.

[40:04] Susan Blackwell: It's it's incredible. And I I also wonder if this time we'll actually grow.

[40:10] Tiffani Gavin: Interest in in theater and what we do will grow because of things like this, what you're doing.

[40:16] Susan Blackwell: Oh, that's interesting. You're reaching people that maybe normally wouldn't go to a show or you know, go to a uh, I don't know, a lecture or something, or you know, this podcast wouldn't pop up in their iPod, you know, in their iPod or something like that.

[40:35] Tiffani Gavin: But now they're getting to learn something and that they and they can develop an interest in something.

[40:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, developing an interest in something that they might take with them.

[40:46] Tiffani Gavin: I I realize while we're talking about this, I I just we just this week, um, because of pandemic related events, a theater in Mexico did a production in Spanish of Now Hear This. They did it virtually, and I was able to sit in my chair that I'm sitting in right now and watch this production that was filmed in a theater in Mexico, and they made a bubble and they filmed it together during the pandemic, and I got to watch it without flying to Mexico to see it.

[41:21] Susan Blackwell: And I felt very connected to that cast and that creative team. And I I know that uh we were talking before um before you jumped into this recording, Tiffany, about how like I know that like the pain that teachers are feeling right now is real. I know the pain that students are feeling right now is real, and lots of different people who are having to adjust and work uh with this technology during this time.

[41:52] Tiffani Gavin: All of that is true, and I'm not minimizing that, but I also think there's an enormous amount of possibility that I am excited that we now are accustomed to that we can take into our future and sort of fold it into being able to gather in person again and things like that.

[42:11] Laura Camien: Yeah, I agree.

[42:12] Tiffani Gavin: I think it's exciting.

[42:13] Laura Camien: I think it has sparked sparked.

[42:15] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah.

[42:16] Laura Camien: There you go.

[42:17] Tiffani Gavin: Yes.

[42:18] Laura Camien: Yes, get a trending today.

[42:22] Tiffani Gavin: Sparked creativity in a new way. You know, people are trying to communicate in a different way and share information. I mean, one of the things that I got involved, got involved with before I started at the O'Neill, um, was something called the Broadway Community Project, which tell us about that.

[42:43] Tiffani Gavin: So that came out of, you know, I was an I was an avid watcher of the daily uh Cuomo uh the press briefings. Press conference, press briefings. And I think the Cuomo show. And I think just about every theater person or Broadway person uh felt the kick in the stomach the day that he said I wouldn't use Broadway as a barometer for anything. Um I don't think that he meant it the way that it came out, but I went on a walk with a friend, my friend Greg Shafford after that, and I said, I you know, I feel like people don't understand how many people are affected by Broadway being closed.

[43:35] Laura Camien: Yes.

[43:36] Tiffani Gavin: Um I feel like there's this sense that we're just it's just about providing entertainment, not that it's providing somebody's job or live.

[43:50] Laura Camien: That's right.

[43:51] Tiffani Gavin: And you know, I said I kept thinking about what my theater must look like, you know, dusty with empty music stands and you know a wig room with no wigs on the on the wig forms, and just as I was like, I an empty theater is one of the saddest things you can you could ever walk through.

[44:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, and um, and I said, I wish there was some visual way to share with people just how just how many people are affected. I want people, I want there to be a human behind it and not just an industry. And so we uh got in touch with Damien Basadona from Situation Marketing, and he I sort of told him my idea and that I wanted to come up with a way of mapping all of this. And he said to me, um, this is a really cool idea.

[44:49] Tiffani Gavin: And Greg and I thought I Greg was really excited. He said, Oh yeah, I know that Damien's gonna love this, and I was shocked that he actually thought it was a cool idea. And so we embarked on this couple of months of creating this map um that basically shows how all of the very with the show in the center shows how all of the various aspects connect to the show. But from the point of view of the people. So I wanted it to be about the people. I wanted you to hear from the guy who hangs the underslings in front on the marquee in front of the theater, and how and is that what they're called? The under the under slings.

[45:30] Laura Camien: Underslings?

[45:33] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah, yeah. Is that where it says like majestic in that times?

[45:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:38] Tiffani Gavin: I never knew that they were called underslings. I'm learning so much.

[45:44] Laura Camien: There you go.

[45:45] Tiffani Gavin: So you know, I wanted, you know, people to hear from him and you know, hear from the union rep who's union isn't, you know, her union office is closed, and she's had to go on unemployment. And you know, the master electrician or the all of the various parts that uh that put together a show. And when we did it, I mean, I didn't even realize how big it would get, and it keeps growing.

[46:11] Laura Camien: It's huge.

[46:13] Tiffani Gavin: Living project. It's huge. I think it's the coolest, coolest thing. It's one of the coolest things I've seen in a long, long time. And when I first saw it, I was like, uh, how do they do this? Who did this? And then I saw Situation and I was like, of course it was situation. Of course it was.

[46:31] Laura Camien: But from the mind of Tiffani Gavin.

[46:33] Tiffani Gavin: From the mind of Tiffani Gavin, and you know, you know, all the people to bring this together and make it happen. But I do love goal accomplished. You have the personal touch of like, let me go in and see what a lead producer does. And oh, here's a lead producer right here. You can learn about them. And how do people find it, Tiffani? If they want to behold the majesty, how do they find it?

[46:58] Tiffani Gavin: They can go to uh playbill.com. There's a um an icon on the homepage of Playbill.com that says Broadway Community Project. And if they click on it, it'll take them right to the map.

[47:13] Laura Camien: And they partnered with you on that. Like they they said we want that.

[47:14] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah. We brought Playbill in. Um, Alex Birsch from Playbill. They were looking for online content because one thing that's interesting, you know, that I never even thought of is that Playbill had to stop their presses for the first time in years or something. Right? The programs, the theater programs.

[47:36] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[47:37] Tiffani Gavin: Oh my God, of course. It had met like it just I knew I knew it, I guess, in the back of my head, but it didn't come home for me until until Daniel brought Alex.

[47:48] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:49] Tiffani Gavin: And Alex said, you know, we are looking for online content. So we'd be happy to partner with you guys. This might make something really interesting for us. And they can't, they became involved. And now they actually do features on various people in the map. So, you know, you can go to the map and click on a person, but they're also features on various people as well. So you get to learn a little bit more about them. So it was something that was really a gift to me and to Greg, I think, to be able to bring this thing to life. And I could not thank Situation and Playbill, Alex and Hippah and Kevin and Damien any more than I mean, they're just amazing to be able to help us do this.

[48:35] Laura Camien: It's a gift for all of us because again, to illustrate just how enormous this industry is and how many people have been affected. Um I gotta imagine that is helpful for so many people on a personal level to conceptualize.

[48:54] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah, like family members who don't understand, like, so what is it? And that's that sounds neat. Um, you know, but yeah, so many people can say, look, look, this is the world that I inhabit. I will also say, just like looking towards the future, I feel like this is a spark for individuals who potentially want to work in the theater and the people who love them, including parents, teachers, guidance counselors, career counselors. I mean, I will be honest with you, until I looked at this project that you've created. I don't know that I could have conceptualized all those jobs and understood actually what all of those and and I work in this industry.

[49:43] Tiffani Gavin: So I can imagine how helpful this could be if you or somebody you cared about was trying to find their place in this big theatrical community.

[49:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's really something. I was on, I was a guest on a podcast recently called uh Ditch Your Backup Plan. And um, the host of that podcast said she has so many conversations with parents who are terrified. Um, she runs a call it the K-State Theater program, and she said she talks to so many parents who are just terrified, like they they have a very myopic view of what uh potential jobs exist for their child who's about to, you know, major in theater. And and I can't wait to tell her about this and make sure she knows about it because she said she's always trying to explain to them like you have no idea. But for for all the students, you know, if you can't see it, you can't be it. So helping them to visualize like, oh my God, there is there's an underslinger. I'd be great at being an underslinger. I can understand with the rest of them.

[50:51] Tiffani Gavin: It's a great spark, Laura. It's very cool. It's a very cool project.

[50:55] Laura Camien: And you made that.

[50:56] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah. I mean, it was really important for us also to be. I mean, you know, Broadway isn't always the most diverse place. And we didn't want to, we didn't want to show it as something that it's not, but we did make a concerted effort to have women and people of color so that so that it's understood that there are a lot of different people that have these roles.

[51:21] Laura Camien: Yep.

[51:21] Tiffani Gavin: And that maybe, you know, the only reason that there aren't more people doing them is because either they don't they don't know about them or they don't have access. So, you know, he, you know, here all there's no job that's not open to you. Um, and that's right. So it was it was fun to put together, and I cannot get over how many people. I mean, we just called these people out of the blue or sent them emails or something. I was like, there's no effing way that like this.

[51:53] Laura Camien: That I have not talked to the yes.

[51:55] Tiffani Gavin: Oh, sorry, I did not mean to interrupt with what is going to be a shameless pitch. Are podcasters on there? I didn't see, but this whole world of theater podcasting has cropped up. So I think it's not complete until you know we see some podcasters on there.

[52:13] Laura Camien: It's true.

[52:13] Tiffani Gavin: We gotta get podcasters on there. So now I have a now I have a phone call that I can make. Because easy that in your spark file to have it.

[52:22] Laura Camien: Yeah, it was this list of like, I don't know. Have you talked to this person? I haven't talked to this person in 25 years. Do you really think you can get them to make a 30-second video? I don't know. What else are they doing? I mean, it's just cool.

[52:34] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah.

[52:34] Laura Camien: There was that moment in the pandemic where it was sort of like, what else are they doing?

[52:38] Tiffani Gavin: Now that's all changed because people have gotten very creative.

[52:41] Laura Camien: Yes, it's true. So we believe, Tiffani, that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't do it alone. They have support along the way. And we're curious who has been a source of support in your creative life.

[52:55] Tiffani Gavin: Oh boy. They're just. Oh, there are so many. I can't, I mean, I don't think it would even be fair to name any one person.

[53:08] Laura Camien: Sophie's choice.

[53:10] Tiffani Gavin: It is Sophie's choice. I mean, you know, if anything, you know, my my mom and my dad have always been an inspiration because they are involved in, they were involved in the arts. I grew up in the arts because of them. And um, and you know, they never they they saw my potential in anything. I don't know. Everything I did was fantastic to them. I mean, I'd be in a musical and croaking my way through some song. You were amazing!

[53:46] Laura Camien: That's a great answer.

[53:45] Tiffani Gavin: You know, fantastic. Wonderful.

[53:46] Laura Camien: That's a beautiful answer.

[53:49] Tiffani Gavin: Oh my god. All right, then the flip side of um your your perfection. There's another topic we're obsessed with on this podcast, and that is processing creative failure or perceived failure. Could you talk about one of the biggest perceived failures or challenges that you faced and how you processed it?

[54:16] Tiffani Gavin: Hmm. Oh, the list. I know. You know, just today I was at teaching the students at the O'Neill uh uh workshop, a let me try that again workshop, which is about how to because as we just said, when you pull up to the O'Neal, there's that big sign that says risk, period, fail, period, risk again. And I when I first saw it, I was like, that sounds amazing. I don't know how to do it. So I really studied on it. And it's it's something that it's so true. We all we all fail. And I think sometimes um it's comforting. It's comforting for me, Laura and our listeners to know that even you know, fancy pants like you, who can executive director out of our center has been. Like you, you can like I and and we posit that one of the reasons that you have risen into a role like this is because you have a good idea about how to process failure. Like, you know, it's not because you haven't experienced failure, it's because you've learned how to process it.

[55:28] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah, I mean, I think that it it's all in perspective. I I don't know that I've ever done anything perfectly or walked away from something saying, well, that I wow exactly nailed that. But I'm always happy to have maybe left my mark somewhere.

[55:50] Tiffani Gavin: Um, or um just you know, maybe left a place a little bit better than when it started, and if I didn't, then maybe I came out of there having learned something.

[56:04] Tiffani Gavin: So um, so I can't, you know, I I I don't want to say that I failed at everything or failed at nothing, but I I just I think again, I can't if I looked at every if I looked at everything that didn't go my way as a failure, I would just I wouldn't get out of bed.

[56:21] Laura Camien: Hey, that's it.

[56:23] Susan Blackwell: I mean, that's that perspective.

[56:24] Laura Camien: Yeah, just because something didn't end up exactly the way you thought of it doesn't make it a failure.

[56:29] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah. Well, it's funny. One just back around to Blue Man for a second.

[56:34] Tiffani Gavin: Um I left in kind of leaving your mark somewhere. The thing I love about Blue Man is that is the thing that I feel like I left behind was Dart Knight on Tuesday.

[56:54] Susan Blackwell: That is genius.

[56:57] Tiffani Gavin: And continued on for that's your legacy.

[57:00] Tiffani Gavin: That's my legacy. I love that that was my leg, that like darts still happened. You know, I don't know if it was on Tuesday, but that you know, they still went to the same bar and plays on Tuesday nights and or grass and darts.

[57:15] Laura Camien: That's really about building community techniques.

[57:17] Tiffani Gavin: Like that's beyond darts. And um, and and if there's one thing that blue man did, you know, go on and continue to do is cultivate community.

[57:27] Laura Camien: And you were a big part of that uh in the early years.

[57:30] Tiffani Gavin: I guess you could call it early years. It was year 10 when I got there.

[57:34] Laura Camien: Hey, it's now 30.

[57:36] Tiffani Gavin: So those are early.

[57:38] Laura Camien: That's true.

[57:39] Tiffani Gavin: Yep, that's true. So that was looking towards the past. Now looking towards the future, and this is potentially an unfair question because you just stepped into such a significant chapter of your life.

[57:51] Tiffani Gavin: But is there a creative thing or a professional thing that you know you need to do before you're done?

[57:58] Tiffani Gavin: I would like to really develop something from whole cloth and you know, shepherd a project for someone unexpected, um, and get it across the finish line. It would just make me so happy to be able to really from start to finish, really develop something as a as a producer or manager, because I'm not I'm not a writer, I'm not, you know, that sort of thing, but to really shepherd a project until it gets to its rightful place and gives somebody a chance that maybe wouldn't otherwise have one.

[58:40] Tiffani Gavin: I just think I didn't know what I could do in this business when I started. I didn't even really know what I wanted to do. I didn't know how far I could get as a woman of color in the theater. And I just, if I could help somebody get to where they want to go to really mentor somebody, I would love that because I stumbled around till I found my way. And I had so many great mentors along the way that I feel like I want to pay it forward to somebody.

[59:11] Laura Camien: So I think you're you're in the perfect position to do that.

[59:15] Tiffani Gavin: Absolutely, and probably for multiple people, but what lucky people because your skill set, you know, like that's one of the things that drew us to uh wanting to talk to you is is your skill set as a creative and someone who's nurtured and fostered creativity and the administrative, the executive side, because so many artists are like, ugh, I don't, all that stuff scares me.

[59:45] Tiffani Gavin: I don't know what to do. And yeah, you combine them so gracefully.

[59:49] Tiffani Gavin: I try. I mean, it's it's an you know, it's an art in and of itself. And I think when you respect the art, it all sort of comes together. You know, you you know, you know the why when someone asks you, I really need this. You can have the conversation about why something that seems so incredibly expensive makes sense to someone to be able to, you know, have that conversation and look at a piece from both you know the dream part and the realistic.

[1:00:29] Laura Camien: I want a shot glass more of that.

[1:00:31] Tiffani Gavin: We're like we're actively working on it, but like a shot glass more of that, like that business acumen part, that part that can is comfortable, like swimming in those business waters and like financials and legal ease. Earlier, you were like talking about the settlement that you were like, uh, it wasn't perfect, there was a flaw in it. And I was like, I want to know what that's a settlement, like all of it.

[1:00:58] Tiffani Gavin: So here's here's the secret. It you'll never feel totally comfortable. You have to wing it until you figure it out.

[1:01:10] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:01:11] Tiffani Gavin: Bake until you make it so good.

[1:01:13] Susan Blackwell: You fake it till you make it.

[1:01:15] Laura Camien: We literally were just going to ask you, like you've been in the creative business for a long time. Can you give us some good creative advice?

[1:01:23] Tiffani Gavin: And I think until you make it, baby. You do have all parts of your brain iring. Do you have any other good creative advice for us and our listeners?

[1:01:34] Tiffani Gavin: It's really important to know a little bit about everything that affects you. So you know, if you're an actor or um, you know, or a performer of any type, know a little bit about your contract. Um, don't just leave it to your agent or your lawyer. Have a, you know, know a little bit about how to do that. However, you have to learn it. You could learn it from a general manager friend like me or um a company manager.

[1:02:05] Laura Camien: This is such good adulting advice.

[1:02:09] Tiffani Gavin: It is it is, it is to be able to like, even if you have to like hold your eyes open with your fingers and like force yourself to do it, to really have some basic working understanding of what you are committing to.

[1:02:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:02:26] Tiffani Gavin: Um, because I think that one, uh, it's always good when a producer or a manager knows you're watching and that you're paying attention. And it's always nice when you're in one of the one, you know, in an administrative position uh to feel like someone understands a little bit of what you do.

[1:02:48] Tiffani Gavin: So that's always a helpful thing. It always, you know, endears people to me when someone says something to me that I'm like, oh wow, you thanks, cool. You knew that you know, you know what it meant that I had to be at the ad meeting today. Thank you.

[1:03:05] Laura Camien: It's like an awareness and curiosity about other people's work as well.

[1:03:09] Tiffani Gavin: Yeah, but it also affects you, you know. I mean, it is important to know, and it'll help you find other opportunities. I mean, I couldn't do a podcast, but you figured out how to do it. You know what I mean?

[1:03:21] Susan Blackwell: Like, really know how to do this.

[1:03:23] Tiffani Gavin: Listen, this is it's true. This is a great example. This is an example of like we are Laura and I like I'll just speak for myself. I'm old as fuck. And I was like, I don't know how to edit out. I don't know how to record stuff. I don't know how to do this. And uh thank God Laura has you know real skills, but but you you figure it out. Like you figure it out.

[1:03:44] Tiffani Gavin: Exactly. It expands your opportunities, getting to use different parts of your brain. And yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely.

[1:03:54] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[1:03:55] Tiffani Gavin: Keep learning.

[1:03:56] Susan Blackwell: That's good advice too.

[1:03:57] Laura Camien: That's very good advice.

[1:03:59] Susan Blackwell: Tiffani Gavin, you work really fucking hard. What's it all for?

[1:04:07] Tiffani Gavin: I think I do it because I truly, truly believe that live performance, entertainment really feeds people's soul. And it's and it's important actually in ways that people don't even think about. It's important to our economy, it's important to our community, it's important to, you know, understanding one another. I just I feel like I want everybody to have experienced being on stage, even just standing on a stage or uh seeing a show and just seeing how much goes into it, how many different kinds of people are involved. It is extraordinary, and I don't feel like I could do anything else that would have given me the opportunity to meet so many amazing people to work on so many different things and get to see the world from so many different places, honestly.

[1:05:19] Tiffani Gavin: I mean, it's I think that's the only I guess that's the only explanation I can give. It seems kind of selfish, maybe, but I I just love what art brings to the world, and I want to do everything I can to help other people know that too.

[1:05:40] Susan Blackwell: Um I feel like you're doing it, you're doing it.

[1:05:45] Laura Camien: It shows up in all the work you're doing, you're feeding souls and also letting people know the breadth of this community as well.

[1:05:52] Tiffani Gavin: You're so in alignment with that goal.

[1:05:54] Laura Camien: It's it's incredible because what you just the words you just spoke and your intentions and then the actions you're taking at the O'Neal, and also the creating of the you know the Broadway um uh community project, it's just it's all in alignment, it's exciting.

[1:06:12] Tiffani Gavin: It is exciting.

[1:06:13] Laura Camien: Okay, way to go.

[1:06:15] Susan Blackwell: Hey, can you tell us um last but not least, who or what is sparking you these days?

[1:06:22] Tiffani Gavin: I think I'm feeling a little defiant.

[1:06:24] Laura Camien: Oh, that's a good spark.

[1:06:29] Tiffani Gavin: I I I don't know if defiance is the word, but I just feel like if I can conquer this during a pandemic, you know, with you know, this job kind of coming out of nowhere, not really expecting that this was going to be my next move. I want to get this right. And I'm going to fight tooth and nail to get it right.

[1:07:02] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:07:04] Tiffani Gavin: Because it could not be a harder time to try and do it. So I am just, I, you know, I don't want anybody to tell me that I can't because I'm gonna make sure that I can.

[1:07:18] Laura Camien: Oh man, and we are right there. We're with you 100%.

[1:07:26] Tiffani Gavin: I appreciate that.

[1:07:27] Tiffani Gavin: Oh, Tiffany, thank you so much for being our guest.

[1:07:32] Tiffani Gavin: It's a pleasure.

[1:07:33] Laura Camien: It's so great to talk to you.

[1:07:35] Tiffani Gavin: You too.

[1:07:35] Laura Camien: It's great to talk to you too.

[1:07:37] Tiffani Gavin: We will we won't go another 20 years, Tiffany.

[1:07:40] Laura Camien: No.

[1:07:40] Tiffani Gavin: Please don't.

[1:07:42] Laura Camien: We won't.

[1:07:43] Susan Blackwell: Friends, I think that's it. This episode of the Spark File was made on Muncie Lenape and Seminoland.

[1:07:50] Laura Camien: And we hope that it put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen to us. If there is a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:08:08] Tiffani Gavin: We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

[1:08:12] Laura Camien: First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently. And if you want to support this little podcast, be sure to subscribe to the Spark File wherever you get your podcast.

[1:08:22] Susan Blackwell: You can subscribe, rate, five-star review it. Uh if you like it, seriously, that is a great way, a free way for you to support this work that we're doing.

[1:08:32] Laura Camien: And you can also share it with people you love.

[1:08:35] Tiffani Gavin: And if you didn't like it, I don't know, Tiffany. What do you say to your critics?

[1:08:41] Tiffani Gavin: Watch me.

[1:08:43] Laura Camien: Oh defiance!

[1:08:46] Tiffani Gavin: Defiance.

[1:08:46] Laura Camien: Woo!

[1:08:47] Susan Blackwell: Yes. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:08:58] Tiffani Gavin: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:09:03] Laura Camien: You gotta take it and make it bye!

[1:09:08] Tiffani Gavin: Bye.

[1:09:09] Laura Camien: Oh my god, Tiffany, that reminds me of fuck around and find out.

[1:09:13] Tiffani Gavin: Oh, that was good.

[1:09:16] Tiffani Gavin: When I bumped into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:09:26] Tiffani Gavin: Could be something that I wanna pick or how I wanna be.

[1:09:31] Tiffani Gavin: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:09:34] Laura Camien: Spark file.

[1:09:36] Tiffani Gavin: I jump into my spark files.

[1:09:39] Laura Camien: Sparkfile.

[1:09:40] Tiffani Gavin: Let's open up the spark files.