This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark style.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark file.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Spark File community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, what? Welcome, friends.

[1:00] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you're joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: But hold up, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a Spark File?

[1:05] Laura Camien: A Spark File is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:15] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:24] Laura Camien: But don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:34] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:40] Laura Camien: Or several open water, extreme endurance swims that blow minds, break records, and amplify peace.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: Or a strong body and stronger mind that can do remarkable things.

[1:53] Laura Camien: Or a whole series of books and keynotes that take readers along on extraordinary real-life aquatic and creative adventures.

[2:02] Susan Blackwell: On today's Makersode, we're gonna talk with someone who truly sparks us.

[2:09] Laura Camien: And that someone is extreme endurance swimmer, author, speaker, and human spark, Lynne Cox.

[2:17] Susan Blackwell: Lynne, welcome to the Spark File.

[2:23] Lynne Cox: I'm so happy to be with you today.

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: Well, Lynne, we are so thrilled that you are joining us today. Sparkler, as you may recall, back in 2019, I shared a spark on this very podcast about Lynne Cox and her book entitled Grayson.

[2:38] Laura Camien: I'm getting chills just saying this. This book is wonderful, and it's about her five-hour encounter with a baby whale that had been separated from its mama in the open waters off the coast of Southern California.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: If you haven't listened to that episode, you might want to go back and listen to it or not. You do you. But Lynne, it is such a joy and an honor to have you here.

[3:07] Lynne Cox: I'm so happy to be here and to talk to you.

[3:10] Susan Blackwell: It's great.

[3:12] Laura Camien: Oh, thank you so much. Lynne, we always start with the basics. Where are you right now and how are you right now for reels?

[3:21] Lynne Cox: I am doing things that I've never done before. And I love to do that. Pretty much in my work is what I'm doing. The thing about what I do really is writing and swimming. And the swimming is about trying things I've never done before, extending out further, pushing borders and boundaries, and seeing what's capable.

[3:45] Lynne Cox: And the other part is my writing. And the biggest thing for me is that whenever I write a book, it's never like the one I've written before. So creatively, I'm taking a huge risk because I'm not sure my audience is gonna follow along with me. And I don't know how I will be received with what I write.

[4:05] Lynne Cox: So that sense of success that you might have when you finish a channel swim and know that you reached the shore may not be there with the writing. But I write because I feel like I want to say something, I want to explore something, I want to do something new. I don't want to repeat what I've done before, and I think that that whole thing inspires me to try something new, and from everything from let me try this new weird food, yes, yes, or let me go to this new interesting place and learn from somebody.

[4:39] Lynne Cox: And so I think that that's what really inspires me, and I hope that somebody else will take it and use it for what they want to do.

[4:47] Laura Camien: Well, it sounds like your readers have to be up for that adventure rather than like, oh, I know what I can expect from Lynne every single book. Instead of that, it's oh wow, what's Lynne up to now? What are we trying now? What are we learning now? It's something new.

[5:04] Lynne Cox: I really wish that people thought like that, all people, but I think there are people that are really creative, and that there are other people that want or expect what they want, and they only want that. So I'm really lucky though, because the people in the past who have read my books, a lot of them are people that are seeking adventure, that are seeking things that are pushing themselves.

[5:28] Lynne Cox: So when I do book signings, the people that show up, like one of my favorite memories is I was doing a book signing at the New York Public Library, and there were a group of swimmers that came in that were soaking wet, and they said, We're really small. Sorry, we smell like the East River, but we wouldn't be able to get fast enough here by roads we swam across to the library. And I just thought this is the funniest thing.

[5:54] Susan Blackwell: These are your people.

[5:56] Lynne Cox: These are my people. These are the people that I write for. And you know, it's sort of every time I meet up with them, they have their own stories of wild things that they've done. And that in turn inspires the group, but it also makes me think that wow, maybe I should be doing something more.

[6:15] Laura Camien: I don't know. I feel like we're gonna get into it in a bit, but the breadth of the things that you're doing, I'm sort of like it seems like a great creative life, well lived, even thus far. And I'm sort of like, well, I guess you could do more. I guess you could pursue your pastry chef career, and you could, but it just seems like you do so much.

[6:34] Susan Blackwell: Um, but it also what you're saying leads to our next question, which is the Spark File Price of Admission. You refer to this, but can you tell us a specific creative risk that you have taken recently?

[6:47] Lynne Cox: This sounds like such a little thing, but it was such a big thing for me recently, and it was through my swimming. My friend Kent and I decided to go swimming one morning because that's what we do as our routine, and suddenly the fog came in, and I've been lost at midnight on a channel swim across the Catalina Channel. So that was a big fearful thing. And so I was looking at this fog moving in, thinking, is it worth this risk or not? And how can we do this safely if we're going to do it?

[7:18] Lynne Cox: Yeah. So what we did was do it as safely as possible. But there was still this uncertainty of are we going to have a problem? And the biggest thing was not getting lost in the fog, but it was that we couldn't see the rowers that were coming across the water.

[7:37] Lynne Cox: So we had to change the whole way of our swimming. We had to swim head up. We had to listen. We had to take our goggles off and just stare into the sunny fog, you know, which is almost worse because everything's so bright, you can't see more than 50 meters. And usually you need to see 200 meters to be able to get through an area where the rowers are without being hit by them.

[8:02] Lynne Cox: So we made it across, and it was not the smartest thing to do, but it made me feel like, well, we got in a good workout.

[8:12] Laura Camien: Using all your senses.

[8:14] Lynne Cox: And yeah, exactly, because that was really it, that you had to be so in tune to the water and to the environment and everything going on to make sure that you didn't get hit.

[8:26] Lynne Cox: But the little disclaimer too is a few days, well, probably a few weeks before there was another situation where the visibility was not great because it was raining, starting to rain. And so we had figured out how to navigate that area. And I yelled out a few times to warn a rower that there was a swimmer out there and he heard us. So, you know, there was some risk. But at the same time, I don't usually take risks when I'm in the water. Just because things can once you start things going wrong, they can go wrong really fast.

[9:00] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:01] Lynne Cox: Um, but this was okay.

[9:03] Susan Blackwell: Glad to hear that.

[9:05] Lynne Cox: We do talk about creative risks on this podcast and how it sometimes feels like it can be life or death stakes, you know, just any kind of creative risk. Yours actually were life or death stakes. So happy that the ending, positive ending, and you're here with us today.

[9:22] Lynne Cox: No, it wasn't, it wasn't life and death, but it's but it's having had that fear of being lost in the fog from that really bad situation before, and to say, I'm not gonna limit it now, I'm not gonna change my life because what something happened when I was 17 years old. That's I'm going to go ahead and go forward. And how can we do this and do it in a safe way?

[9:39] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[9:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm teasing you, but genuinely like overcoming a fear. That's a that's big to rewrite the ending of that very old narrative in your mind.

[9:54] Lynne Cox: It's beautiful, and safe to say you are officially admitted into the Spark File. You're qualified.

[10:01] Laura Camien: You're qualified. So for people who don't know you, when people ask, what do you do? How do you answer that question?

[10:08] Lynne Cox: When your husband introduces you.

[10:10] Lynne Cox: It depends on who we're with, but often he'll say she's an athlete who has broken 60 world records and broke the men's women's world record when she was 15 and 16. He will say that I'm an author and I am a New York Times best-selling author. He'll brag about me. And then um he'll also say that I'm a speaker, a corporate speaker. So I feel like I'm those things, but I'm more than that.

[10:36] Lynne Cox: You know, I'm a friend, I'm a person who, you know, loves to be with other people. I, you know, there's those are just little titles that somewhat describe who I am and what I want to be.

[10:48] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. Lynne, as your husband was bragging about you, you have accomplished so much as an athlete and a creative and a human. It's hard to know what to ask you first.

[11:00] Susan Blackwell: So we're gonna begin with your accomplishments as an athlete. You have set so many records, you have tackled so many firsts. Here are just a few of your accomplishments as a swimmer and strap in, folks, because this is gonna take a moment to list these remarkable accomplishments.

[11:14] Laura Camien: Hit it, Laura. I'll start. In 1971, at the age of 14, you were the youngest person to swim the Catalina Channel.

[11:22] Lynne Cox: You and a group of friends trained for a year, and then you all swam 27 miles in 12 hours and 36 minutes.

[11:30] Laura Camien: At 15, you swam across the English Channel in nine hours and 57 minutes, breaking the men's world record by 20 minutes and the women's world record by an hour.

[11:41] Susan Blackwell: Woo!

[11:42] Laura Camien: The following year you swam the English Channel again in nine hours and 36 minutes, breaking the record yet again.

[11:50] Susan Blackwell: Lynne do you love this? You just have to sit here and take it.

[11:52] Laura Camien: You were the first person to swim the 10 miles around the Cape of Good Hope, located at the southern tip of Africa through shark and sea snake infested waters, and you did that in three hours and three minutes.

[12:05] Susan Blackwell: You were the first person to swim across the Strait of Magellan in 42 degree water through a storm in one hour and two minutes.

[12:12] Susan Blackwell: In 1987, after years of preparation, you achieved a diplomatic first swimming across the Bering Strait, opening the US Soviet border for the first time in 48 years.

[12:25] Susan Blackwell: You did that in two hours and six minutes in 38 degree water. And in 2002, wearing only a swimsuit, Lynne Cox performed a mile long swim from a boat to the shore of Antarctica in waters of 32 degrees Fahrenheit.

[12:41] Susan Blackwell: And Sports Illustrated called you the greatest open water swimmer. Lynne, you did these things. You conceived of them, which is to say you caught the spark of creative inspiration, and then you actually put in the work and you did these things. This is not leading up to a question. This is just amazing. It's just amazing. And if you would like us to take over for your husband and introducing you at every party, we are happy to do so. We're happy to do it. But really, all of these athletic accomplishments, is there one of them that you feel like especially, especially proud of?

[13:19] Lynne Cox: You know, it's sort of like when you have dogs or children, what who do you like the best in the family? I don't think you can say that. I what I really believe though is that each swim was the most important when I did it. It was the most difficult challenge. And I could not go on to the next thing if I hadn't succeeded at the previous.

[13:50] Susan Blackwell: Love it. Love it. If you don't mind, I'd love to read a quote from an interview that you did with Matt Dellinger of the New York Times, because it really captures the moment when you were sparked.

[14:03] Lynne Cox: Oh, sure.

[14:04] Susan Blackwell: Here's what you said. When the idea of swimming to Antarctica occurred to me, it was one of those aha moments in my life. I knew it was something I wanted to do, something I just had to do. Just thinking about it made me smile. What intrigued me was how it could be done. I didn't know. I didn't think anyone knew. But the fun and creativity came in the trying, the testing, working harder at something than I had ever before. There were so many early explorers who wrote about their experiences of sailing around Antarctica. Cook, Shackleton, so many others, but none of them had the experience of swimming there. Do you remember saying that, Lynne?

[14:50] Lynne Cox: Actually, I do because he asked such great questions. And so when you ask great questions like you both do, it draws people out and makes you think about why you do what you do and how you're inspired to do it.

[15:03] Susan Blackwell: Well, Lynne, when I read that quote, I was so moved by it because I was like, this is it. This is Lynne Cox describing the creative process. A spark of inspiration came to you that only could have come because of the things that you had created before. So it stood on the shoulders of those things, but then it made you smile. You got this visceral feeling in your body that said, I don't know. I don't know how I'm gonna get there. And I don't know if anybody in the world could tell me, but I'm going to take step by step by step. I'm gonna do the work, I'm gonna figure it out, I'm gonna piece it together with my vision and my team. I was just so struck by the way that you summarize the creative process.

And we're also struck by the way that you have married creativity to your swimming. And we're curious when these sparks of inspiration, when do they typically come to you? Do you seek them out actively? Do you wait to see how the muse strikes you? You've also spent 10 million hours in open water. And I wonder if sparks come to you when you swim.

[16:07] Lynne Cox: Actually, that's exactly what happens. When I'm swimming, I'm thinking about my life. It's a great think tank. You know, there's no outside input unless you want it. You just hear the bubbles of your breath and the sound of your hands and feet moving through the water. And so there's this rhythm, there's this relaxation. Even if you're working hard, there's a rhythm and relaxation, and you can let your mind travel. And so on those days when I'm really in deep thought, I was swimming kind of close to shore so I don't get run over by boats. But um, I actually each day think about what am I doing in my life? What do I want to do? How do I get from here to there? And I think the other part that helps help me so much in my life is that my mom and dad were so different.

My dad was a physician, a science person. My mom was a mom, but she was an artist, and she studied art from the time she was four years old on her grandfather's lap, who was an artist, a painter. And her whole side of her family on her mom's side were all artists and creators. So I used to see my mom get out her palette and decide that she was going to paint the wall. So she'd do a New England scene and paint the entire living room wall with a New England scene. And a friend would come over and a guy named Greg and say, This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen, but it's so great. And I just thought, you know, I just thought this is what moms do. They just decide they want to do something and they do it.

And then my dad was the opposite of before you do something, you do all of the research, you do all the background. You learn as much as you can by reading, by talking to people, by going there, and you put it all together. So to have art and science before me and to be able to pull it together and see it in my life, it has had such a great way of helping me figure out how to be creative and also not just creative, but complete my creativity. You know, that I'll complete a book, I'll complete a swim.

[18:06] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes.

[18:11] Susan Blackwell: Oh, this is interesting. I'm gonna tell our listeners a couple of things and then return to that very spot right there. Just so everyone knows, Lynne, you know, you're well aware of this. But you have written several books: Swimming in the Sink, a memoir, South with the Sun, Swimming to Antarctica, a children's book entitled Elizabeth, Queen of the Seas, Grayson about that baby whale that we love so much, and your latest book, Tales of Owl, The Water Rescue Dog, which we'll talk about more in a moment. But before we do, here are the questions on every writer's mind who's listening. How do you get so much written? What is your approach to writing? And I also want to tack on, and what do you think that combo of art and science and process for your mom and dad's process? How do you think that has affected your writing process?

[19:06] Lynne Cox: I think the reason I've been able to be productive and to see completions of different projects is because I swim in the morning. I think about what I'm writing for the two hours beforehand or three hours, come out of the water, and then I start writing. And then actually on the most recent book, I was so excited about working on it that I was wide awake at three in the morning thinking about it. So I thought I'm just gonna get up and write. So I would start writing for three or four hours, then I do my swim thinking about what I'd been writing, and then I go back and write for three or four more hours. But the time wasn't time, it was just I wasn't aware of the time because I was so immersed in thinking about how to tell the story.

And I love doing that. You know, during the pandemic, Pam, people were it was a lot of hardship for a lot of people, but for me, we were home for almost two years, and I was I wrote three books during that time because we weren't my husband and I weren't traveling around for his work, and I was able to just focus. So for me, it was this great time of creativity, and so you know, I think that that has helped me because now I've created these different work, and I'm out there about to start talking about it to people all over the United States.

[20:31] Susan Blackwell: Do you want to start by telling us about it? Can you tell us more about Tales of Owl?

[20:37] Lynne Cox: Yes, I can. Actually, what happened was a friend told me about these dogs in Italy that are trained to leap from helicopters into oceans and seas and lakes around Italy and rescue them. So I just thought, how do you train a dog to leap from a helicopter? And so anyway, I went online and I saw these videos about the Italian water rescue dogs, and I saw a Newfoundland, one of the giant black furry dogs leaping out of a helicopter and landing in the ocean, and I just thought, or lake, it was a lake, so I decided I have to go there and find out more.

[21:16] Susan Blackwell: And oh my gosh, of course. Kindred spirits, though. These dogs are kindred spirits with you, Lynne Cox.

[21:23] Lynne Cox: Yes, yes, because but I also was thinking, you know, how did they train them? And how risky was it what for the dogs and for the humans? And do the dogs want to do this? Or are they being forced into doing it? So I made all sorts of contacts and wound up going to Italy to try to find out more about the dogs. But through this journey, there were stories that came to me about dogs and swimming and learning to swim and being in Italian and in Italy and eating Italian food and families and all these stories. So this book is a story about this one dog named Al who was rambunctious and really not getting it, really not learning the role that she was supposed to play according to the people that were working with her. But it's also a story about love and courage and belief and creativity and hope that things will go a certain way.

[22:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I can't wait. And when is it out? When can we get our hands on it? Is it out now?

[22:24] Lynne Cox: It will come out on May 24th, the launch date. And my husband Steven and I are going to be traveling to 27 cities from May until the middle of July, and then a break, and then I'm speaking in Europe and doing some television there, and then I'm coming back and doing more.

[22:44] Susan Blackwell: Oh, fantastic. It's really, really, really exciting.

[22:48] Lynne Cox: So exciting. I mean, there's nothing better than meeting your readers. Everyone has their own experience, and they bring that to whatever they've read that you've written. So you learn so much, you know.

[23:00] Susan Blackwell: And I bet you get even more sparks too.

[23:00] Lynne Cox: Yes. Yes. If you listen, you listen to stories of others, you're like, hey, that's interesting.

[23:07] Lynne Cox: Or you learn something that you'll meet somebody else and you can share, like, oh, you might want to be in touch with that person because they know how to do this, you know, and it just connects people in a really great way.

[23:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I love it. I just have to draw everyone's attention to the way Lynne talked about that creative process where you caught a spark about these dogs that are trained to do these extraordinary things, and you started researching and talking to people, and you created something where nothing existed before. And it sounds like it was it actually continues to be a very satisfying creative process that, as you just said, will continue all the way to sharing the light of the work that you made, not only completing the book, but then going out and sharing it with folks. And it is just our dream for people, it's our ideal for people that they are able to take it all the way from that spark of an idea that came from a conversation that you were having with somebody, all the way to these adventures that you're creating for yourself, a book tour, you know, going to Europe and meeting your readers, etc. So I just wanted to have underscored the possibility of that.

[24:20] Laura Camien: It's not just possible for Lynne Cox, it's not just possible for Lauren Susan, it's possible for people who are listening to this.

[24:27] Susan Blackwell: And I also just want to say if you have not heard Lynne speak. Well, you're hearing her now, of course, but if you haven't had a chance to read her work, it is stunningly beautiful.

[24:40] Susan Blackwell: Lynne, I'm just gonna butter your bread for a second. The way that you write, the way that you take these experiences that you've had and then spin them into language is gorgeous and super bonus. I find your voice to be so pleasing. So I would like to highly recommend and endorse a Lynne Cox audiobook. It is delicious. And I think I may have talked about that when we shared the Grace and Spark on the podcast back in 2019 or whatever that was. It is the whole package. It is so satisfying. Again, no question, just compliments. But I will say, as an author and a speaker, you're also like a documentarian. You go to places that many of us physically would not be able to go, like swimming through sea snake infested waters.

Then you report back this with this beautiful storytelling. Many athletes have experiences that are extraordinary, but does the storytelling, does the writing and the storytelling complete that process for you? So it's not just that you swam the channel in record-breaking time, or that you swam a first or a diplomatic swim, but it's the writing about it that also is integral to your process.

[25:56] Lynne Cox: Actually, I had always wanted to be a writer because I was such an avid reader. So as a kid, I knew that's what I wanted to be. So part of my love of doing these swims is to be able to share them. I mean, so great you did the English Channel, but what did it feel like? What did it look like? What did you, what happened? What was going on internally? So those were the sparks that helped me figure out how to write it. But I also had a really good friend who was an F-4 pilot in Vietnam. He flew fighter jets and had to land at night on carriers and had to make sure that the tail hook of the airplane caught the cable. Oh my gosh. So he wouldn't go off overboard. And he had to fly with not enough fuel and with wings shot up, and they had to wear poopy suits, which were suits that were like wetsuits that would squeeze their blood back from their legs back throughout their bodies so they wouldn't gray out and blackout during their missions because of all the G forces and stuff like that. The body goes through.

[26:55] Lynne Cox: Wow. So we would talk about his experiences and we talk about my experiences. And he said something that stuck with me. I love to learn from people. And he said, you know, what your challenge is is to take your experience and my experience and make it relatable to people. For people who have never done these things, how do you immerse them in it? How do you have them feel what you felt? And one of the biggest compliments I ever had when a friend was reading Swimming to Antarctica, she said, I had to wrap an Afghan around myself to be warm. So I just thought, okay, that's it. To be able to carry somebody into your world through words is fantastic, you know. And to have them then go, you know, this helps me figure out how to describe what I'm feeling or thinking. Gosh, you know, that's great. I love it.

[27:53] Laura Camien: I love that you have built this life as an athlete and a writer, like so many people in some of the performing arts, like there's a separation between like anything sort of sporty, sports, and arts related. It's like, oh, there's so much to learn, and there's so many interesting ways they can be combined, and just listening to you talk about, yes, the creativity of planning a swim, executing the swim, then writing about and sharing the light, what we call sharing the light, which is like sharing it out to the world so we can all experience it. You have, I mean, dare I say, like perfected this creativity cycle. I just feel like we all have lots to learn from that.

[28:36] Lynne Cox: Well, I think it's really because the discipline that I learned from being an athlete that I was able to become a writer. So the sensibility of I have two hours in the morning to work out and two hours in the evening to work out. That was my routine all through high school, college, and then after. And it's not as long now at this point in my life, but just having a structure and then being able to use that as a framework for my day and know there's certain things that I need to achieve during that time.

[29:09] Laura Camien: Yeah, and you stick to it.

[29:20] Lynne Cox: Yeah, I want to stick to it. I want to see it through. That's that real like mental discipline that like we often think of that athletes have like just self-discipline in that way. I made this commitment, I'm doing this. I don't feel like working out, but I'm going to work out. Do you have any like advice for the rest of us, like mere mortals that we could apply to strengthen our mental game? Is there a trick to it?

[29:46] Lynne Cox: I think sometimes it's just showing up. I mean, often it's like, ah, it's cold and I don't really feel like swimming this morning. The water's 50 degrees and it's kind of windy, and I, wow, it's just so nice being in bed. I want to sleep longer. And then you go, all right, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go. And I then you get in the water and you think once you start swimming, why did it take such an effort to get here? It's so good. So I think that's the same thing with the creative process of sitting down, just getting to the computer and sitting down and writing and thinking.

[30:19] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[30:20] Lynne Cox: And once you're there, you're in that space to begin. And you know, it doesn't always go easy. I mean, Burr, I wrote the book Swimming in the Sink, and that was the antithesis of Swimming to Antarctica. Swimming to Antarctica was about having enormous life goals and swimming and doing these challenges nobody had done. And the other book was about, you know, being so sick I could hardly walk across the room. My heart wasn't working anymore. And I there was consideration of my having a heart transplant. So to then work through that and recover my health and get to the other side, but to then sit down and write about some of this in this book, it was the hardest thing I've ever done as a writer because I had to go back through some of the most difficult times of my life to be this incredible athlete.

And then suddenly I can't, I can't get in the water, you know, and all I can do to feel like I'm in the water is to put on my cap and goggles and put my hands in the kitchen sink and move them to try to recreate what it's to be back in the ocean again.

[31:23] Laura Camien: What you're illustrating, it sounds harrowing, and we're happy that you're on the other side of it. And it's also I have this hypothesis brewing, Lynne, about you, and I think it may be applicable to others, which is the combination of physical activity, physical exertion, and your creative flow seems intrinsically linked. That there's something about the ways that you are when you're swimming, you're swimming, and you're also you're processing and you're asking yourself questions, big life questions and questions about what you want to make in the world. And then when you return to your desk, you are flowing, your self-expression is flowing. And it just seems, I don't know what you think about the hypothesis, but it seems like there's a link for you there.

[32:17] Lynne Cox: There's a huge link, but I think part of it too is one of my favorite poets is Robert Frost. And I just love his work. And so I remember reading that he used to go for long walks and think about how he would write his poetry. And then I mean, the next step was I read all of his work, and then one day I found a recording of him reading his own work. And it was just like going to the next level of hearing the pauses, hearing the raspiness of his voice, hearing the depth and the fluctuation, all of those things. It brought these poems to another level of life, and it was fantastic. So I think that having that ability to move, to not be stuck in one place helps your mind flow. But I also physiologically think that you're bringing more oxygen into your body and moving it and flowing it.

And so I think that you know, often my husband is a semi-professional opera singer, he played a classical piano. He is incredibly creative. He has both a financial brain and a musical brain. The best, which also goes together. But often he'll say, Oh, I just am stuck on something and he'll go out for a walk and he'll come back and say I solved it I figured it out I figured out what the process is to do this and I think that getting stuck is you're also physically stuck in a place and if you can just move and not just move constantly to stay away and avoid what you're doing but to move and think about it in a relaxed way I think you can come back to it and revisit it and come back with fresh ideas.

And for me it's not always I mean the beginnings of my books often I write the beginning of my book 50 60 120 times before I get the first page the way I want it and then from there I can start writing the story. But until I get those first paragraphs it's just not right. It doesn't work.

[34:13] Laura Camien: I just love we've talked a lot I also love taking a long walk and I'll think of it sometimes as literally that like I'm shaking it loose. I'm shaking the there's ideas now I'm just like change in my pocket shaking them loose where they had been kind of calcified and the oxygen in the body the new stimulus the nature I just yes I'm 100% with you on that. Lynne I also obstruct by when you were talking about listening to Robert Frost read his own work that's how we feel about listening to you read your own work. The natural the way that you reflect on nature in your work and the sound of your voice which again is just so delicious.

[34:57] Lynne Cox: Oh thank you.

[34:58] Laura Camien: Yeah absolutely now I'll be really self-conscious.

[35:01] Lynne Cox: No, no. You're our Robert Frost.

[35:05] Laura Camien: Um Lynne, just taking a little bit of a left turn. We are endlessly fascinated by the topic of failure or perceived failure. For somebody like you, who is so accomplished, can you tell us and our listeners about something creative that you attempted that you perceived as a failure and how you processed that, what you learned from it, and how you continued on.

[35:30] Lynne Cox: I think that there's two different levels. There's the swimming one where I tried to swim across the Catalina Channel and I got lost at midnight and separated from the boats, and it took 45 minutes to an hour. I don't know how much to finally find the paddler on the paddleboard and me. Wow. And get back. And after that swim, I decided I never ever, ever wanted to do an open water swim again. And I was I was at that time 17 years old.

[35:58] Lynne Cox: Oh wow. And so I was so fortunate though, because there was a friend named Fami Latala, who was a school psychologist who had tried to swim the English Channel four times, and he'd gotten within 400 meters of shore, and he was pulled out of the water because his crew thought he'd gone into hypothermia. And it turns out that King Farouk was standing on shore in Dover, England, waiting for him to land. And so afterwards he said, Fami, it broke my heart that you didn't finish the swim.

[36:30] Lynne Cox: And Fami said, You know, it broke my heart too.

[36:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, no kidding.

[36:34] Lynne Cox: But Fami was on my swim when I was lost in the fog.

[36:39] Lynne Cox: And so he talked to me and basically said, You have the ability to break the world record.

[36:45] Lynne Cox: You have to go back again and try again.

[36:48] Lynne Cox: And my parents did the same thing where they said, you really need to not give up now. You need to fulfill this commitment.

[36:55] Lynne Cox: And I think that was the first and only time that I felt like my parents were really pushing me. Up until then, they'd always supported me, which was a big difference.

[37:05] Lynne Cox: And so the other thing though, besides that, was that my brother held the world record from Catalina Island to the mainland.

[37:12] Lynne Cox: And I think deep inside it bothered me that I would break his world record if I swam from Catalina Island to the mainland.

[37:19] Susan Blackwell: So wow.

[37:20] Lynne Cox: We decided to switch it around and I would start the swim from the mainland of Catalina. I mean, mainland of California and swim to Catalina Island.

[37:29] Lynne Cox: So that if I broke a record, it wouldn't be his record. Wasn't taking it from him.

[37:34] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[37:35] Lynne Cox: Right.

[37:36] Lynne Cox: So I wound up going back and swimming and doing the fastest overall swim for anyone for the Catalina channel.

[37:44] Lynne Cox: And I look at that now and go, you know what? I was really right to have my family push me.

[37:50] Lynne Cox: It was really important to have them say, don't give up on your goals, don't give up on yourself.

[37:55] Lynne Cox: This was a bad situation, revisit it. That really, really helped.

[38:00] Lynne Cox: In my writing career, you know, I've done speeches where I flubbed up, and I, you know, instead of looking at the speech with success, I look at the flub-ups and I try to figure out how can I do it better?

[38:11] Lynne Cox: How can I not stumble next time?

[38:13] Lynne Cox: Working on actually, I was told don't practice, don't practice, but I don't like to do things that I'm not prepared for.

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: I'm with you.

[38:20] Lynne Cox: Yeah.

[38:21] Lynne Cox: Yeah, I want to be ready.

[38:22] Lynne Cox: So right now I'm reading Tales of Al the Water Rescue Dog over and over again out loud.

[38:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[38:29] Lynne Cox: Because I'm going to be doing the audio version of it.

[38:31] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:32] Lynne Cox: And my husband, Stephen Bronfenbrenner, taught me that you know, he sings opera.

[38:37] Lynne Cox: So he has learned all these different words that you have to sing in French and Italian and even in Russian and Czech.

[38:44] Lynne Cox: And so he said, you know what you need to do before you read this book, because you've written words in Italian, go to the audio dictionary and learn the Italian words so they become just fluent for you.

[38:54] Lynne Cox: So I started that two months ago, and at the end of this month, I'll do the recording.

[38:58] Lynne Cox: But I've been constantly working on it because this is not my world, and I'm not a musician, but he is.

[39:05] Lynne Cox: And so I've learned from him that they just practice and they practice and practice until it's smooth.

[39:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:10] Lynne Cox: So it really helps me having his creative influence in my life to be able to make sure that I don't do a big faux pas.

[39:18] Susan Blackwell: Well, I love his advice is so good though, because by just slow and steady practicing those Italian words and phrases, when you are actually in the booth recording the audiobook, you can really focus on your self-expression, connecting with your listeners and enjoyment instead of being pulled out by fear that you are going to mispronounce a word, which can really like harsh your afternoon.

[39:43] Lynne Cox: It just robs you of the pleasure of getting to record that audiobook.

[39:48] Lynne Cox: I totally did it.

[39:49] Lynne Cox: Understand it because I did an audio version of Grayson, and just because it was my work didn't mean that I really knew how to read it.

[39:55] Lynne Cox: Because I wasn't a professional, but I think that it really would have been better had I done what I'm doing now.

[40:02] Lynne Cox: Read the book through. If there's anything that's bumpy, read that sentence over and over again until it's smooth, so that when I actually do this, because the other thing is that my work has been edited a little bit.

[40:14] Lynne Cox: So instead of sometimes instead of saying a word a person's name, it will be a pronoun she or he.

[40:19] Lynne Cox: So in my mind, it should be the person's name, but in the reading of it, it's changed to a she or he.

[40:25] Lynne Cox: So I will start to stumble when I'm reading it.

[40:28] Lynne Cox: So I have to like, ah, I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this in doing what you're doing.

[40:33] Lynne Cox: That you, if you have somebody editing your work, you have to then go with those edits on when you're speaking it.

[40:41] Lynne Cox: And it's challenging.

[40:42] Lynne Cox: Um, but that's what's great and fun, because you learn something new and you can do something else that way.

[40:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes, you know, yes to all of that.

[40:53] Susan Blackwell: I keep thinking about like wow, you have some really fantastic people around you giving you sound advice.

[41:00] Susan Blackwell: I think your family you were born into, but that's like pushing you to not leave it here unfinished, but actually keep going on this goal, and then your husband with the ideas of like practice these things, like you really have surrounded yourself with people giving you very sound and very supportive advice.

[41:22] Lynne Cox: Like, I'm I want to kind of be adopted like that.

[41:25] Lynne Cox: Like, can I just join you?

[41:28] Lynne Cox: You're welcome.

[41:29] Lynne Cox: No, the thing is I think that for people who are creative, when they're not going a mainstream life, they need people to support and believe in them.

[41:37] Lynne Cox: I mean, the stuff I've done in my life hasn't been normal, it really hasn't been normal.

[41:41] Lynne Cox: And so it's been really hard to be out there doing things that are really different, and so to have people say that's super cool, not to say, why are you doing that?

[41:53] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes.

[41:54] Lynne Cox: Lynne Cox, we this is the drum that we bang ceaselessly, which is I think you're a game changer.

[42:01] Lynne Cox: I think you are a trailblazer, and that means that there is no map.

[42:06] Lynne Cox: That means that you are drawing the map, and then you are following the map that you have drawn.

[42:11] Lynne Cox: And I think having people around you, smart creative people, don't go it alone.

[42:17] Lynne Cox: Having people around you, uh, was it Famiatella, like supporting that vision and also reminding you when it's sort of like this is not the end of the story.

[42:28] Lynne Cox: The story is going to continue on, and you are going to process through your fears about what it means to swim at night, what it means to swim in open water, etc.

[42:38] Lynne Cox: It's just amazing.

[42:39] Lynne Cox: It's so much of your distinct, game-changing creative life is a great object lesson for all of us about what is possible because it may be something you have never seen before.

[42:55] Lynne Cox: And if you think that you'll get there by looking around to see, like, well, what's everyone else doing?

[42:59] Lynne Cox: You don't have that option.

[43:01] Lynne Cox: There's not like let me just check with everybody else.

[43:04] Lynne Cox: You have like, here is the vision in my mind, and let me figure out how I'm going to do that.

[43:10] Lynne Cox: There may be some people who come along on this ride with me, but it's singular.

[43:14] Lynne Cox: It's really, really interesting.

[43:17] Lynne Cox: But smart to have folks who say, How are we gonna get there?

[43:20] Lynne Cox: Not you're gonna do what now?

[43:22] Lynne Cox: Exactly.

[43:23] Lynne Cox: Critical, absolutely critical.

[43:25] Lynne Cox: But there's also a lot of collaboration.

[43:27] Lynne Cox: I had no idea when I wrote my first book that it was all about, you know, the interior design of the book, the book cover that was designed by an illustrator, the people that would be figuring out how to get the book out to readers, the editor that would be saying, you know, maybe you want to emphasize that a little bit more, or you're redundant here.

[43:50] Lynne Cox: All of those things make the book the book, and it's never really alone.

[43:55] Lynne Cox: But to be able to reach, I mean, swimming to Antarctica took me 21 years to find a publisher.

[44:03] Lynne Cox: Wow.

[44:04] Lynne Cox: And then another year to get it accepted and printed.

[44:08] Lynne Cox: And so, you know, that was my longest swim.

[44:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[44:11] Lynne Cox: All my life I wanted to be a writer.

[44:14] Lynne Cox: And so to keep trying and trying and trying and get rejected and rejected and finally get it to a point where somebody would look at it and then be excited about it.

[44:25] Lynne Cox: And then I was able to get by then I'd done the swim in Antarctica and was able to get people in the writing world from the New Yorker and the New York Times that were endorsing my writing.

[44:36] Lynne Cox: And so that helped me get to that next level.

[44:38] Lynne Cox: And then the people at Canoff believed in me.

[44:41] Lynne Cox: And that has made such a difference because once I had written my first book and it became a bestseller, then my next book, instead of 21 years, it took me eight months to write it.

[44:50] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[44:51] Lynne Cox: And then the next book was a year.

[44:53] Lynne Cox: And then so it was there was this momentum that started to be created.

[44:57] Lynne Cox: And I think that that is so important to be able to surround yourself with champions.

[45:02] Lynne Cox: But not narrow-minded champions.

[45:04] Susan Blackwell: Correct.

[45:07] Lynne Cox: Because if I only I love swimmers, but if I only surrounded myself with swimmers, that would be the only thing I talked about.

[45:13] Lynne Cox: So I love to be around musicians and artists and people that are doing things that are politically groundbreaking.

[45:21] Lynne Cox: New thought.

[45:30] Lynne Cox: Bringing new ideas into being.

[45:32] Lynne Cox: She is not about bringing negativity into the world.

[45:36] Lynne Cox: And so I think that that's the other thing of when you have people around you that are drawing you down, that are holding you up, that are setting you back.

[45:44] Lynne Cox: Like an athlete, you learn do not stick around that group.

[45:47] Lynne Cox: It's time to move and find people that will support you that you in turn can support.

[45:53] Lynne Cox: And that will make your life so much better.

[45:55] Susan Blackwell: Oh Lynn.

[45:56] Susan Blackwell: Amen.

[45:57] Lynne Cox: Amen.

[45:58] Susan Blackwell: Preach, Lynne Cox, preach.

[46:00] Lynne Cox: Yes.

[46:01] Susan Blackwell: Sorry.

[46:01] Lynne Cox: No, it's perfection.

[46:04] Susan Blackwell: It's perfection.

[46:05] Susan Blackwell: We're all about that.

[46:06] Lynne Cox: We believe that in any creative endeavor, you've got to be surrounded by the people that will lift you up that will say, Oh wow, what an interesting vision.

[46:16] Lynne Cox: I never would conceive of that.

[46:18] Lynne Cox: Let's figure out how to make that happen.

[46:21] Susan Blackwell: How can we bring that to life?

[46:22] Lynne Cox: Yeah, like how do you do that?

[46:24] Lynne Cox: It's for them to question not in a negative way, but in a question of that's right.

[46:28] Lynne Cox: What is your going to be your process?

[46:29] Lynne Cox: How are you going to reach out?

[46:30] Lynne Cox: Who do you know?

[46:31] Lynne Cox: And so for me, my world is all about connections with other people.

[46:35] Lynne Cox: And so I look at I can read a lot, I can learn a lot, I can listen to recordings, I can but I think that for me, I look at the world as people around the world that you connect with, the local experience people know more than you will ever know.

[46:49] Lynne Cox: So to be able to tap into local people and say, okay, we're gonna do a book signing in St. Paul, Minnesota, where would be the best place?

[46:59] Lynne Cox: How do you, you know, not to just go in thinking I know anything.

[47:02] Lynne Cox: I know everything.

[47:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, exactly.

[47:05] Lynne Cox: Yeah, it makes a big difference by who you recruit to help you achieve your vision, but also realize that they are part of that and what are their rewards for helping you reach your vision.

[47:17] Lynne Cox: Because I think that that for me, when I was doing the swim in Antarctica, I had three physician friends that went with me to make sure that when I jumped into the water, that I didn't go into cardiac arrest, but if I did, they would know what to do.

[47:31] Lynne Cox: Because the water was 32 degrees and I was wearing a swimsuit cap and goggles.

[47:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:35] Lynne Cox: So I'd never been in water that cold.

[47:37] Lynne Cox: And there's something called sudden death syndrome where you can jump into cold water and your heart will just stop.

[47:42] Lynne Cox: So I had to have the confidence that this group of physicians would know what to do at that moment.

[47:49] Lynne Cox: But they also knew that they were so important to making the swim real.

[47:53] Lynne Cox: That's right.

[47:54] Lynne Cox: Because without them I wouldn't have done it.

[47:55] Lynne Cox: They were essential.

[47:56] Lynne Cox: And then the support crew in the zodiac boats, the guy in the dry suit ready to pull me out if there was a problem, people watching for leopard seals and icebergs, all of these people played the incredible role of getting me across.

[48:09] Lynne Cox: So yeah, you are a solo swimmer. If you don't make it across, you didn't achieve it.

[48:14] Lynne Cox: But you really aren't doing it alone.

[48:16] Lynne Cox: You really are relying on people.

[48:18] Lynne Cox: But if you did make it across, it's thanks to a whole group of people.

[48:24] Lynne Cox: And I think that that's sort of the life journey.

[48:26] Lynne Cox: You know, if but also I think also sometimes I've had people that like when I swam the English channel for the first time, when I was 15 years old, there was a cab driver who was driving my mom and me to Shakespeare Beach where I was gonna start to swim.

[48:40] Lynne Cox: And he looked at me and said, "You're too fat to be a channel swimmer."

[48:43] Susan Blackwell: What?

[48:43] Lynne Cox: So I looked at him like, what do you know? And I've trained all my life at that point at 15 years old to do this swim. And so during the swim, I'm thinking, he's wrong, he's wrong, he's wrong.

[48:57] Laura Camien: You used it as fuel.

[48:59] Lynne Cox: Yes, exactly. That's wonderful. You can use the negativity to feed that spark that you have.

[49:06] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[49:07] Lynne Cox: God, it's great.

[49:08] Susan Blackwell: It's great.

[49:09] Lynne Cox: Yes. Indeed.

[49:10] Laura Camien: Lynn, is there something in particular that you're proud of or that you love that you don't get asked about often, that you don't get to talk about often that you want to share with us? Does anything come to mind?

[49:22] Lynne Cox: I think that, you know, I think that I just have an ordinary day, everydayness in my life. I mean, it sounds like I'm always going for these, you know, world records, but I'm not. Now, I mean, life for me now is about getting up in the morning and swimming with a couple friends and then talking to them about what they're doing in their lives and their days and their families, and then going and doing whatever writing I'm working on, and then spending time with my husband and sharing in the travels that we're doing for his work and for mine. So I think that, you know, I was so lucky that I met Stephen Braum from Brenner seven years ago and instantly fell in love with him and now we're married.

And so our lives together have been this incredible journey for the last seven years. I feel so fortunate because I never thought at this point in my life I would meet somebody, I wouldn't meet him, the man that I'd always hoped for. And so, you know, to be with somebody who's creative and thoughtful and kind and who wants to travel with me and support me when I'm doing my stuff and I want to be there for him, it's an incredible part of life, you know, and who would have thought?

[50:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh, that's wonderful.

[50:31] Laura Camien: Wonderful.

[50:31] Lynne Cox: And again, it's I feel like you have had really good taste in the people that you have surrounded yourself with and partnered with. And it just sounds like a wonderful life. The mundane parts and the thrilling parts all sound fantastic.

[50:48] Lynne Cox: It's just great.

[50:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I mean, how many times do you have your husband say, "I want to, yeah, I'll go grocery shopping with you?"

[50:55] Lynne Cox: Sure. You want to make a menu, I'll help you figure out what we're gonna have to do. Do you want me to look? I can cook tonight.

[51:01] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, okay.

[51:04] Lynne Cox: Yes. Good catch.

[51:06] Lynne Cox: Yeah, it's amazing though, because sometimes, you know, I have friends that are my age that are kind of like haven't met the right man or was disappointed or whatever, and they sort of go, "Seeing you so happy makes me hope that this will happen too." So I keep asking, Steven, do you have any good friends?

[51:26] Laura Camien: Twins, brothers, yes.

[51:28] Lynne Cox: Are there more of you? Because you know that there's a circle of friends and people like things alike, you know that if you're around good people, they attract really good people.

[51:38] Laura Camien: There's something in what you're saying, too, about when we talk, I think, especially to young artists. Sometimes they can have a singular vision about the things that they want to accomplish in life, and I think that's probably a hallmark of youth in a certain way, that sort of singular ambition towards things, and just trying to gently share the possibility with them that a happy whole life includes yes, like being a trailblazer, and yes, being creatively self-expressed, and yes, potentially finding someone that you enjoy going to the grocery store with or enjoying spending time on your own decorating cakes, like a whole life is a full life. So I think that's a beautiful illustration of that, Lynn.

[52:22] Lynne Cox: No, thank you.

[52:27] Laura Camien: Yeah, and for him, and for him.

[52:30] Laura Camien: Lynn, is there a creative thing you absolutely need to do before you're done?

[52:35] Lynne Cox: Wow. Um, no, that I don't know that because I still have to do what I'm doing now to figure out what's next.

[52:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it all stands on the shoulders of the thing you're doing now.

[52:46] Lynne Cox: Yes, yes, yes. And I think also though, I think the biggest part of creativity for me is to do to work on something that excites me. And so, you know, I absolutely love dogs. And so to be able to write a book about dogs and then to meet people that have dogs, and to be, I mean, the swimmer community are so vibrant and excited and high energy, but there's the same connection with people that have dogs.

[53:14] Lynne Cox: So I'm thinking that when I'm doing this book tour through 27 different cities, you know, in May through July, I'm gonna be meeting people that are sharing stories about swimming and about dogs, and I can't wait, you know, because I think that the part of being creative is about being enthralled with an idea and then having all sorts of stimulation around it that makes you think more about it and do it in different ways. And then eventually you sort of hone in on what is it that you really want to say about it or create about it or expand on for people. And so for me, telling this new story, Tales of Al the Water Rescue Dog, it's a story about dogs, but it's also a story about Italian cooking and food. I love food. So there's these combinations of different worlds that I've been able to write about that how much fun is that?

[54:08] Susan Blackwell: So now you understand why I was getting up at three in the morning.

[54:11] Lynne Cox: Yes.

[54:12] Lynne Cox: Like write some more.

[54:13] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it's wonderful.

[54:15] Lynne Cox: Yeah. And I think that that confidence though has come through time. That, you know, when I wrote my first book, you know, and to get, I mean, 21 years of rejections. I went to New York six times. I tried to reach out to so many different people. My manuscript was never looked at, and it was only through a contact that somebody believed in my writing that then showed it to Vicki Wilson, my editor at Knopf, who then said, "I like it very much. Here's the name of two agents, you need an agent." And so I interviewed the agents and chose Martha Kaplan. And then suddenly I had people that believed in me.

[54:19] Lynne Cox: Building that team.

[54:19] Laura Camien: By 21 years.

[54:19] Lynne Cox: 21 years.

[54:57] Laura Camien: It's a good thing you're an endurance swimmer because it comes in handy when you need to be an endurance creative.

[55:03] Lynne Cox: And please, friends, hear what Lynne Cox is saying to you that just if something doesn't happen immediately, it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. It may mean that you need to continue putting one foot in front of the other. Tenacity, endurance. One of my best friends is a fashion designer. And so she taught me that she could design this beautiful top and put it out for sale and it wouldn't sell this week. Six months later, the top, they couldn't keep enough in the stores. So it was just all about timing too. She was often saying, "Just try again, do another way." It's just it's timing and it's the right person. And so that's what happened with her. I mean, she was one of the most, she is one of the most creative people that I've ever known.

That, you know, to have a line after line of clothing go out and to be able to look at other people's work in the clothing world and then to upgrade it or change it slightly to make it her design. I mean, I can go into a store and go, "That's yours." Oh, you know, that's her, it's a signature. Um so, you know, Deborah Ford is her name, and she she's Australian, and she started off in Australia designing clothes, and then wound up coming to the United States and then expanding her world from there. Um, now she's back in Australia designing. So I think that it's fabulous to be able to have people that are around you that are willing to inspire you to help you do the things you want to do.

[56:33] Lynne Cox: And you in turn do the same for them.

[56:35] Susan Blackwell: Amen.

[56:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:37] Lynne Cox: That's great.

[56:38] Laura Camien: Lynn, here's a question that we ask all of our guests. You work really hard.

[56:44] Laura Camien: What's it all for?

[56:45] Lynne Cox: It's for my life.

[56:47] Lynne Cox: It's for my life.

[56:48] Lynne Cox: Yeah. I would be so bored if I just did normal stuff all the time. I mean, I think to have something that excites you and makes you reach and believe in yourself and pushes you and gives you something to say, "I am living a life. I am here, I am alive." It's not about climbing the mountain, it's enjoying the entire journey.

[57:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:20] Lynne Cox: But if you just keep moving forward, you keep getting there.

[57:23] Susan Blackwell: Oh, thank you so much.

[57:26] Lynne Cox: Thank you.

[57:27] Susan Blackwell: Thank you for being here, Lynne Cox. We appreciate you.

[57:29] Lynne Cox: Lynne Cox, you are a gem.

[57:34] Susan Blackwell: Friends, check out really any of Lynn's writing. You can read it, you can audiobook it. It's so delicious. Tales of Al, the water rescue dog coming soon. Attend one of those book signings on Lynn's upcoming book tour. You will not regret it. Lynn, thank you so much.

[57:54] Laura Camien: I guess that's it.

[57:55] Susan Blackwell: This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. We hope it put a bunch of sparks in your file.

[58:02] Laura Camien: Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[58:17] Susan Blackwell: We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[58:24] Laura Camien: And be sure to subscribe to our podcast. Wherever you get this podcast, subscribe, rate, five-star review it. If you like it, share it with people that you love.

[58:32] Lynne Cox: And if you didn't like it, I don't know, Lynn, what do you say to your critics?

[58:37] Lynne Cox: You know, my critics are often people that are reading the book and they'll say something about they didn't like about it. And I think, you know what? I'm really sorry, but I can't change it because it's already been completed. Right. And it, but it does bother me. And I just think, well, maybe there's something within that I need to consider. But often it's I can't do anything about it. Actually, a good friend Arthur Golden, who wrote Memoirs of a Geisha, I asked him, did he ever get criticism on that book? And he just looked at me like, "Are you kidding me?" And I said, "So what did you do?" He said, "Well, you know, it's like slamming your finger in the car door. It hurts like heck. And then you take it out of the car door, and over the next week or two you keep fingering it, and it hurts. So stop fingering it."

[59:26] Lynne Cox: Stop squeezing your finger.

[59:29] Lynne Cox: Yeah, right.

[59:31] Lynne Cox: Let it go.

[59:32] Lynne Cox: Let it go. Can't do anything about it. So go on.

[59:36] Laura Camien: Let it go.

[59:37] Lynne Cox: But I love what you said about like, is there anything that I can learn from it and maybe incorporate into the future? This is done, but maybe for the future.

[59:45] Laura Camien: Beautiful.

[59:46] Lynne Cox: Beautiful.

[59:47] Susan Blackwell: All right, friends. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[1:00:01] All: Bye.

[1:00:06] Lynne Cox: Bye, thanks, Hax.

[1:00:10] All: We love you.

[1:00:11] Lynne Cox: I love you too.

[1:00:13] Lynne Cox: I bumped into something that inspires me.

[1:00:17] Lynne Cox: I dump it in the spark file.

[1:00:20] Lynne Cox: Spark could be something that I wanna take or how I wanna be.

[1:00:27] Lynne Cox: I'll pump it in the spark fire.

[1:00:27] All: Spark fire.

[1:00:31] Lynne Cox: I jump into my spark fire.

[1:00:36] All: Let's open up the spark fire.