This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark style.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparks file.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people clarify and accomplish their creative goals.

[0:51] Laura Camien: You should know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: But hold up, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:58] Laura Camien: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our very own spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:14] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we might even talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:18] Susan Blackwell: And your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take some of these sparks of inspiration and make something of your own.

[1:26] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[1:31] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien, Susie Blackwell. How are you doing over there?

[1:37] Laura Camien: I'm pretty good. You know, the ups and I know the ups and downs of the everyday these days.

[1:45] Susan Blackwell: But you know, uh, happy, healthy, uh, alive and well. So lots to be grateful for.

[1:53] Laura Camien: This is what we're focusing on.

[1:55] Susan Blackwell: Gratitude.

[1:56] Laura Camien: That's right. That is what we are clinging to on the daily.

[2:01] Susan Blackwell: Can I interest you in a tasty spark?

[2:03] Laura Camien: I will take a hot, fresh spark, please.

[2:07] Susan Blackwell: I've got one for you. I'm so excited. Serve it up.

[2:10] Laura Camien: Serve it up.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: I am very, very excited to share this spark.

[2:16] Laura Camien: Oh.

[2:17] Susan Blackwell: And before I launch into what I think of as a very important spark, not to blow sunshine up my own spark, but this is like the VIP of sparks.

[2:29] Laura Camien: Okay, clear the way and roll out the red carpet.

[2:32] Susan Blackwell: I think this is going to hopefully be useful to more people than just me.

[2:38] Laura Camien: Oh, okay.

[2:39] Susan Blackwell: And I also want to underscore, I am not a doctor.

[2:42] Laura Camien: True fact.

[2:43] Susan Blackwell: Laura is not a doctor.

[2:47] Laura Camien: No, we are not.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: And this conversation is for entertainment purposes only.

[2:53] Laura Camien: So that being said, Oh, I'm so glad you clarified that.

[2:56] Susan Blackwell: So several years back, I was not feeling great. I wasn't sure why. My joints ached. I was fatigued all the time. I'd get a full night's sleep, but I'd wake up feeling so very tired. I felt anhedonic.

[3:11] Laura Camien: Oh, which is a reduced ability to feel pleasure.

[3:15] Susan Blackwell: My cognition felt compromised. And it took me a while to get a diagnosis and treatment. And it turns out, friends, it was a combo platter of things. It was a few tick-borne illnesses, a little bit of menopause, a condition called pots, which makes it difficult sometimes for blood to get up to my brain.

[3:36] Laura Camien: What?

[3:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I didn't know that part.

[3:39] Laura Camien: Oh, yes. I've had that since I was little. That's why I'm a fainting goat.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: I faint from time to time, subway stairs, church pews.

[3:48] Laura Camien: I have never known that.

[4:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes. This is good to know when we're out and about and we're doing things together.

[4:29] Laura Camien: You might faint.

[4:29] Susan Blackwell: Laura, have I ever told you how I used to joke with Jeff Bowen and Hunter Bell, they would kid me that one of my greatest aims in life was to do a production of Whose Life Is It Anyway, where I could simply be in a hospital bed through the whole thing. Now I know it's because it's not because I'm lazy, it's pots.

[4:29] Laura Camien: It's that I have a hard time standing for long periods of time. And if I stand on the subway, if I am standing in a like a church service, I will faint.

[4:28] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[4:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:29] Susan Blackwell: This is good to know. Let us all be fairly warned.

[4:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:33] Susan Blackwell: And if you have always had a little bit of a faint in your life, maybe you have pots. Again, I'm not a doctor. This is for entertainment purposes only.

[4:42] Laura Camien: So um all that being said, I'm so happy to report that I have been successfully diagnosed and treated at a back baby.

[4:52] Susan Blackwell: You're back. You're back in a big way.

[4:55] Laura Camien: But during that time when I wasn't feeling well, I mainly did two things. Essentially, I worked, and when I wasn't working, I rested. And I also tried to keep up with the laundry and a few other chores, but I didn't have much energy for anything else.

[5:15] Susan Blackwell: And during that time when my defenses were so down, I think I can confidently say that I got addicted to scrolling TikTok.

[5:25] Laura Camien: I was gonna say, I think those were your TikTok days.

[5:29] Susan Blackwell: Those were my TikTok days. TikTok days. I took minimal energy. I could just sit or lay on the couch or in bed and scroll. And it felt like I was engaging with the world, kind of. But it got to the point where I would scroll and scroll and scroll until a post would pop up. The post would be like, You've been scrolling for a while now. It's time to take a break. Let's take a breath together. And the first time that happened, I threw my phone.

[5:59] Laura Camien: I was so startled.

[6:00] Susan Blackwell: Those are the true heroes of social media, the ones that take the time to post. Hey, why don't you put the phone down?

[6:05] Laura Camien: It's posted by TikTok.

[6:09] Susan Blackwell: No.

[6:10] Laura Camien: Yes, it is.

[6:12] Susan Blackwell: Oh, wow. What? How long do you need to be on there before they give you that?

[6:17] Laura Camien: I looked it up, it varies.

[6:18] Susan Blackwell: But they're not the hero of the story.

[6:20] Laura Camien: No, they're not. Let's not give them too much credit.

[6:22] Susan Blackwell: I take it back. I was thinking of the regular people, and I don't do TikTok, but on Instagram that'll take a post and just be like, hey, why don't that it's their personal post? Why don't you put your phone down? I'm like, I, you know what? You're right. Wow. Thank you. Love it. Done. Maybe we'll do that for this episode.

[6:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: Just a tile that says, put your phone down.

[6:39] Laura Camien: Put your phone down.

[6:43] Susan Blackwell: So back to me and TikTok, I felt like Mary Tyrone in Long Day's Journey into Night. And if you don't know that reference, Long Day's Journey into Night is an autobiographical play by Eugene O'Neill. And in it, the mother character, Mary Tyrone, from time to time drifts to the upstairs guest room where she indulges in her morphine addiction. And I felt like I would do this, but with TikTok, I would be like, I'm gonna go upstairs. I'd get under the electric blanket, maybe grab a puppy or two, and then just Laura hours and hours of scrolling on TikTok.

[7:24] Laura Camien: Wow.

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I don't think I ever knew.

[7:28] Laura Camien: I think you were like drinking alone.

[7:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I I knew how bad I knew you were on TikTok a lot because you were always like, and then I saw this on TikTok. I read a thing.

[7:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[7:38] Susan Blackwell: That's code for I saw it on TikTok. I know where you saw it. I know where you read it. I have to say, throughout my life, I have prided myself on not really having an addictive personality. I never took up smoking. I never did weed, I don't drink alcohol. But if I'm honest with myself, in my 50s, in my phone, that's where I got got, and that's where I met my little addiction.

[8:02] Laura Camien: But as you know, it's by design.

[8:05] Susan Blackwell: Girl. And they now have the power to like it's more powerful than any of the drugs you mentioned. We're gonna get into it.

[8:12] Laura Camien: I know.

[8:13] Susan Blackwell: So I shared all of this with my sister, Julie. Hi, Julie.

[8:17] Laura Camien: Hi, Julie.

[8:18] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Julie. Julie recommended a book to me, Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna Lemke.

[8:23] Laura Camien: Yes.

[8:25] Susan Blackwell: Anna Lemke is a professor of psychiatry and addiction medicine at Stanford University School of Medicine. And in her book, Dopamine Nation, Dr. Lemke explains that dopamine is a chemical that has been identified as essential for the experience of pleasure, reward, and motivation.

[8:45] Laura Camien: She stresses that when we talk about dopamine addiction, that's not really accurate.

[8:50] Susan Blackwell: We are not actually getting addicted to dopamine itself. Dopamine is not addictive. Dopamine is a signal, and ultimately, dopamine is really more about motivation than it is about pleasure or reward.

[9:05] Laura Camien: She describes this famous experiment where rats were bred to not have dopamine receptors.

[9:13] Susan Blackwell: And if you take a rat who has no dopamine receptors, a rat who typically eats and enjoys food, and you put the food just a little further away from the rat, like the length of a rat's body, these rats without dopamine receptors will starve to death before they will take the few steps to get to the food and eat it. They will starve to death.

[9:35] Laura Camien: Wow.

[9:37] Susan Blackwell: So they have no motivation to do so.

[9:39] Laura Camien: They're just like correct.

[9:41] Susan Blackwell: You got it, Laura. I probably should eat, but instead of just little rat scrolling on TikTok. But that's what Dr. Lemke means when she says dopamine seems tied to motivation, and that we need dopamine to be motivated to do the work in order to get our rewards. And if we didn't have dopamine or dopamine receptors, we wouldn't care.

[10:04] Laura Camien: And just like those little ratlets, we would sit around and we would die.

[10:07] Susan Blackwell: Wow. Laura, do you know this feeling, or do you have your version of this feeling when you can't stop scrolling? Do you have anything like that where you're like, I can't put down this book or I can't put down this whatever?

[10:18] Laura Camien: Um, I mean, uh, I occasionally get stuck in the scroll. I'm pretty aware of it pretty quickly. But at the hour mark, I'll be like, what the fuck? And like an hour of my life? Like, like what's happening? And how do you know it's been an hour?

[10:35] Susan Blackwell: I just look at my phone?

[10:36] Laura Camien: Like you'll look at your phone and be like, wait a minute, what? It's it's 8:30. How did that happen? And then I'll just be kind of frankly annoyed with myself. I'm like, that was a colossal waste of time.

[10:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[10:50] Laura Camien: Um, so just that like I feel that. I'm not immune to that, no.

[10:56] Susan Blackwell: But I also feel like I've never like had that addictive personality except for that time that I had back surgery, and that by get in was so good.

[11:04] Laura Camien: We've all got our little thing.

[11:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I was like, oh, this is what they're talking about.

[11:08] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. So, friends, if you know that feeling when you can't stop scrolling, that's dopamine at work. And it's not about the pleasure itself, it's about the wanting and the anticipation.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: In the book, Anna Lemke talks about her own addiction to romance novels.

[11:28] Laura Camien: Oh, wow.

[11:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes. So her gateway drug was reading the book Twilight, which she read, and then she read the whole Twilight series and then reread them. And that was the gateway to a whole world of romantic, which is romantic fantasy. And then somewhere along the way, she got herself a Kindle, she said, so her husband could think she was reading a classy classic when she was really reading a bodice ripper.

[11:57] Laura Camien: She said the quality of the writing didn't matter. She just needed to get her fix.

[12:03] Susan Blackwell: And she wasn't aware that she was getting into an addictive pattern. She started staying up later and later at night reading. She would go to work at Stanford, bleary and exhausted because she had not gotten enough sleep due to all the romantic reading she was doing. She took less and less joy in the things that previously had given her pleasure, her marriage, her family, her work.

[12:27] Laura Camien: Actual romance and actual sex.

[12:30] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Wow. She became more irritable, anxious, and depressed. And again, I think this is important. She didn't see the link between her romantic reading and the progressive deterioration of her own mental health.

[12:47] Laura Camien: And she is an addiction specialist.

[12:49] Susan Blackwell: Was she just thinking, like, damn, these are good books. I can't put these down.

[12:52] Laura Camien: I think at first she was like, that gave me a thrill. And then she was seeking a thrill that was as thrilling or slightly more thrilling.

[13:05] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm. I also want to be super clear when I say she could not see that link and she's an addiction specialist. That's no shade to her. I say that to point out how elusive and mind-scrambling this stuff can be.

[13:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[13:21] Susan Blackwell: And also, I feel you, Dr. Lemke. While I wouldn't say that scrolling TikTok for a couple hours a day was the source of my fatigue, joint pain, and cognitive issues. I chalk that up to Lyme disease. I don't think that scrolling digital media was helping my mental health.

[13:37] Laura Camien: Yeah, it didn't help.

[13:39] Susan Blackwell: The super bummer, creatively speaking, is that any time and capacity I would have had to create something for the pleasure of creating was taken up with watching lots of videos of other people creating. That is what my algorithm was largely serving me is other people making and sharing their work, which is a real kick in the pants.

[14:07] Laura Camien: I mean, there is a time and a place for it. Like it can be inspiring.

[14:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[14:13] Laura Camien: And it can give you new ideas.

[14:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And also then walk away so that you can make your own shit.

[14:18] Laura Camien: Come into real life.

[14:21] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Lemke is careful, and I want to be very careful too, not to trivialize life-threatening addictions by comparing them to my experience with social media, her experience, reading romanticity.

[14:35] Susan Blackwell: For someone whose addiction puts them at risk of life-threatening withdrawal, things like alcohol, opioids, et cetera, those folks need to seek a medical professional.

[14:46] Laura Camien: No, I'm feeling bad about making a joke about Vicodin.

[14:49] Susan Blackwell: Why?

[14:49] Laura Camien: Uh just saying because it's an incredibly addictive.

[14:52] Susan Blackwell: No, no, but that's your real experience.

[14:55] Laura Camien: It is, it is, but I didn't mean to make, you know, make light of it.

[14:58] Susan Blackwell: I didn't take that lightly.

[14:59] Laura Camien: I actually, the way I interpreted it sincerely, is that that was one time what it brushed up against you where you were like, oh goodness.

[15:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh, sure.

[15:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, because prior to that I didn't, I I'm a very empathetic person, but I did not have a lot of empathy for addiction.

[15:17] Susan Blackwell: I I didn't understand, like I tried some things, but I'm like, it's nothing great about this.

[15:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:23] Susan Blackwell: Until Vicodin and Vicodin convinced me, you know, not only is the pain gone, but um everything is gonna be okay.

[15:32] Laura Camien: And I was like, Well, I could get real addicted to this feeling.

[15:36] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, and I suddenly like had a wider perspective and much more understanding and empathy for people who slid into it.

[15:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:47] Susan Blackwell: What hooks you?

[15:48] Laura Camien: And it is different for everybody.

[15:50] Susan Blackwell: And if you've never been hooked, bless, bless.

[15:54] Laura Camien: Yes.

[15:55] Susan Blackwell: So even though we want to leave those conversations about alcohol, opioids, Vicodin, et cetera, to the medical professionals, I think this conversation is important for all of us because, as Laura just pointed out, to expand our empathy.

[16:11] Laura Camien: But also we all have reward pathways.

[16:14] Susan Blackwell: We have these neural networks that drive motivation by releasing dopamine.

[16:19] Laura Camien: And therefore, we are all vulnerable to addiction, especially living in what Dr. Lembke calls a drugified world where we have instant, easy access to all kinds of substances and behaviors, including things that previously we wouldn't have considered addictive.

[16:39] Susan Blackwell: Modern life has rewired our brains to make addiction more common.

[16:44] Laura Camien: Dr. Lembke says your brain has been hijacked by a world of endless, frictionless pleasures.

[16:50] Susan Blackwell: We've all become more vulnerable to the problem of addiction.

[16:53] Laura Camien: And she stresses, anyone can get addicted, even her, an addiction doctor.

[16:58] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[16:59] Laura Camien: 100%.

[17:00] Susan Blackwell: So let's back up.

[17:02] Laura Camien: How do we get here?

[17:04] Susan Blackwell: The basis of all of this is evolutionary.

[17:07] Dopamine is a survival neurotransmitter that signals this is something you need for your survival now.

[17:14] Go get it right now.

[17:16] So those things in like caveman days used to be food, clothing, shelter, finding a mate.

[17:23] Laura Camien: Now we can access those things more readily, relatively speaking.

[17:28] Susan Blackwell: And we don't necessarily have to work as hard for our own survival.

[17:33] Laura Camien: And through the application of science and technology, the things that we have have been turned into drugs.

[17:41] Susan Blackwell: They have been made more accessible, more potent, more bountiful, and more novel.

[17:47] Laura Camien: And in our modern world, we can easily access this blast of dopamine.

[17:53] Susan Blackwell: So we need more of our drug and more forms of drugs in order to not only feel good, but to just feel baseline normal.

[18:04] Laura Camien: And sometimes when we're not using, we're in pain.

[18:07] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Lembke says this may explain the rising rates of anxiety, depression, and despair that we're seeing in ourselves and all around us.

[18:15] Laura Camien: She says there's a wild mismatch between our ancient wiring and the modern world we live in.

[18:22] Susan Blackwell: That is so true.

[18:23] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:24] Susan Blackwell: She talks about how classic addictive substances like opioids, alcohol, nicotine, cannabis, have been engineered to be much more potent and more accessible than before.

[18:36] Laura Camien: And they've also invented new addiction substances that didn't exist before or weren't as accessible before online pornography, social media, video games, online shopping, online gambling.

[18:50] Susan Blackwell: We've even taken things that we think of as good for us and turned them into drugs, in her case, reading.

[19:07] Laura Camien: So you do a brain scan for somebody who's a di, and I was, I was that was very humbling to me, where I was like, I get the distinction between having an opioid addiction and having a TikTok or a digital media addiction.

[19:22] Susan Blackwell: I get the difference.

[19:24] Laura Camien: But I also was very humbled when I heard, you know, these the impact on the brain, it's the same.

[19:31] Susan Blackwell: It's addiction.

[19:32] Laura Camien: Wow.

[19:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:34] Laura Camien: So an important concept that she unpacks is the pleasure pain balance.

[19:36] Susan Blackwell: The pleasure pain balance is a metaphor that she uses to sort of depict how we process pleasure and pain.

[19:51] Laura Camien: If you imagine deep in your brain, you have a scale, like an old timey scale.

[19:57] Susan Blackwell: And when we experience pleasure, that scale tips in one direction.

[20:01] Laura Camien: And when we experience pain, it tilts in the other direction.

[20:06] Susan Blackwell: But the brain always wants to return to baseline levels of dopamine.

[20:12] It wants to return to what is known as homeostasis.

[20:15] Laura Camien: Because we can't constantly be in a state of bliss.

[20:19] Susan Blackwell: We have to come down as a matter of survival to look for the next reward.

[20:24] Laura Camien: In caveman times, it's how we stayed alive.

[20:28] Susan Blackwell: And in fact, the brain will bring us down past the baseline in a process called neuroadaptation.

[20:34] Laura Camien: And when that happens, we're back in that place where we need our next reward.

[20:39] Susan Blackwell: And that can feel like the hangover, the come down, the moment of craving, wanting to watch one more TikTok, just like 10 more minutes of TikTok, or to read one more comic book, or play one more level of a video game, or oh, I just want to have one more beer.

[20:56] Laura Camien: So that's you know, a little how we got here.

[21:00] Susan Blackwell: She shares five key qualities that make something addictive.

[21:05] Laura Camien: One is access.

[21:07] Susan Blackwell: Can you place a bet or purchase a romance novel with a swipe of a finger?

[21:13] Laura Camien: How very accessible.

[21:14] Susan Blackwell: Quantity. The more we use of our drug and the more often we use it, the more likely we are to get into that dopamine deficit space.

[21:24] Laura Camien: Potency, how strong is the drug, and how much and how fast the dopamine is being released, all speaks to potency.

[21:32] Susan Blackwell: Over time, we develop a tolerance, meaning our drug stops working at the current dose, and we need more and more to get that same effect.

[21:42] Laura Camien: So it's not 15 minutes of scrolling, it's 30 minutes of scrolling, it's 45 minutes of scrolling.

[21:49] Susan Blackwell: Novelty. Our brains are sensitive to anything that is new in the environment.

[21:55] Laura Camien: And novelty is a way we can overcome tolerance.

[21:58] Susan Blackwell: So with the algorithms, it's almost like a slot machine effect where you're staying on longer and longer in hopes of seeing something that is as entertaining or more entertaining than something that I saw before.

[22:13] Laura Camien: Oh man.

[22:14] Susan Blackwell: But this novelty thing, too.

[22:16] Laura Camien: Is this also the reason why everything is constantly being updated and changed?

[22:22] Susan Blackwell: Uh it drives me crazy.

[22:23] Laura Camien: Like just to update my phone.

[22:25] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, I don't like these changes.

[22:27] Laura Camien: I don't like what you've done here.

[22:29] Susan Blackwell: And it's just a constant, like they think it'll be a slightly more entertaining if like all the little buttons pop when they you know, when they show up on the screen.

[22:40] Laura Camien: Um, is that part of the novelty too?

[22:43] Susan Blackwell: I could only speculate, but I have to guess yes, because think of the phone that you had five years ago or seven years ago.

[22:53] Laura Camien: If you looked at it now, you might be like, uh, it looks so quaint, it looks so boring.

[22:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[22:58] Laura Camien: And they keep giving us, oh, now the buttons look like bubbles.

[23:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh, now you know what I mean?

[23:03] Laura Camien: Like, yes, I do, and it drives me bananas.

[23:06] Susan Blackwell: I want to be like Nana wants her old phone back.

[23:09] Laura Camien: Yes.

[23:10] Susan Blackwell: I I'm I'm just like, well, only because everything is constantly changing.

[23:14] Laura Camien: And I'm like, can I please just log on and use my computer or my phone for one day without being like, oh, nope, stop everything.

[23:23] Susan Blackwell: This is gonna update, and now you're gonna need to get used to this.

[23:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[23:27] Susan Blackwell: Uh it's if it's not one thing, it's another, Susan.

[23:30] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[23:32] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so back to five key qualities that make something addictive.

[23:35] Laura Camien: We've got access, quantity, potency, novelty, and number five, uncertainty.

[23:42] Susan Blackwell: Rewards that are less predictable are far more reinforcing than rewards that are guaranteed.

[23:49] Laura Camien: Anna Lembke talks about how compulsive gamblers are not addicted to winning money.

[23:55] Susan Blackwell: They get as much dopamine from losing as they do from winning.

[23:59] Laura Camien: They are addicted to being lost in the world of the game.

[24:03] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[24:04] Laura Camien: This was an aha for me.

[24:05] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[24:06] Laura Camien: I became addicted to being lost in the scroll.

[24:09] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[24:10] Laura Camien: For a period of time, not feeling my achy joints and fatigue, but mostly not feeling.

[24:15] Susan Blackwell: Because as Brene Brown taught us, you cannot selectively numb.

[24:19] Laura Camien: Is it like a cousin to being in the flow state?

[24:22] Susan Blackwell: Because the flow state seems like the positive version of that.

[24:25] Laura Camien: That's a great observation.

[24:26] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I I'm not feeling great, but suddenly I go on stage and I'm like, I'm not sick for the next 90 minutes.

[24:32] Laura Camien: And I come off the show and I'm like, oh, I do still have that cold that I had.

[24:37] Susan Blackwell: You know, but when you're in that flow state, um you can forget about all of that.

[24:43] Laura Camien: Yeah, I love that question, Laura.

[24:44] Susan Blackwell: I don't know the answer to it, but I bet a good uh neuroscientist could tell us what chemicals are being released in our system when we go into flow state.

[24:54] Laura Camien: That'd be a good spark.

[24:55] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna call Dr. Dan Siegel.

[24:56] Laura Camien: That's awesome.

[24:58] Susan Blackwell: You got him on the speed dial.

[24:59] Laura Camien: I do.

[24:59] Susan Blackwell: Hey, Dan.

[25:00] Laura Camien: I also want to share what Dr. Anna Lembke shared.

[25:02] Susan Blackwell: This this starts getting very usable and feeling very important.

[25:09] Laura Camien: Five soft signs that you might have a problem with compulsive overconsumption or addiction.

[25:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh, this is useful.

[25:16] Laura Camien: She recommends you be honest with yourself.

[25:19] Susan Blackwell: If a friend or loved one comments on your behavior and suggests you might have a problem.

[25:23] Laura Camien: I know my husband was like, How long you've been, how long have you been taking and talking?

[25:31] Susan Blackwell: Another one, the lying habit.

[25:33] Laura Camien: You may minimize your use to yourself and others.

[25:37] Susan Blackwell: Are you like fibbing about your use?

[25:41] Laura Camien: Mental health symptoms.

[25:43] Susan Blackwell: Are you experiencing anxiety, depression, irritability, insomnia, or worse?

[25:49] Laura Camien: Consider if there is a hidden relationship between your psychological suffering and this behavior.

[25:55] Susan Blackwell: In the moment, using your drug of choice feels good, but compulsive usage that feels good in the moment tends to make us more depressed or anxious in the future.

[26:07] Laura Camien: This one really gets me.

[26:09] Susan Blackwell: Opportunity costs.

[26:11] Laura Camien: Asking myself, what are the things I'm not doing because I'm spending all my time doing this thing?

[26:17] Susan Blackwell: In my case, the cost of using digital media is my lived time.

[26:22] Laura Camien: And if I added that up over a day, a week, a month, a year, the opportunity cost starts to get very steep.

[26:32] Susan Blackwell: She poses a question that now I pose to you, which is do I really want to look back on my life and realize that I spent a high percentage of my time scrolling on digital media?

[26:46] Laura Camien: Hell no.

[26:48] Susan Blackwell: Hell no.

[26:49] Laura Camien: Hell no.

[26:50] Susan Blackwell: And finally, a soft sign that you might have a problem is if you experience a sense of terror at the thought of stopping.

[26:59] Laura Camien: Oh, wow.

[27:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[27:02] Laura Camien: That'd be a big indicator.

[27:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[27:04] Laura Camien: Wow.

[27:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[27:07] Laura Camien: She then, it's not all bad news.

[27:09] Susan Blackwell: She then shares a plan to help us reset our dopamine.

[27:12] Laura Camien: She asks us to begin by asking ourselves, what do I turn to when I'm tired, stressed, or bored?

[27:12] Susan Blackwell: What do I turn to when I'm tired, stressed, or bored?

[27:25] Laura Camien: What do I do more than I intend?

[27:28] Susan Blackwell: What do I hide or feel ashamed about?

[27:31] Laura Camien: What leaves me feeling worse after, not better?

[27:35] Susan Blackwell: So those are questions you can ask yourself to determine if there's a little drug of choice that's being used.

[27:42] Laura Camien: Wow.

[27:42] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[27:43] Laura Camien: Then once you've identified your drug of choice, it's good to quantify your use.

[27:49] Susan Blackwell: She recommends go look back one week and see how much you've consumed on any given day.

[27:55] Laura Camien: Right.

[27:55] Susan Blackwell: And after documenting the quantity and frequency, we should consider why we use.

[28:02] Laura Camien: She said it usually boils down to two things: either to have fun or solve a problem.

[28:08] Susan Blackwell: The problem could be something like depression, insomnia, boredom, loneliness.

[28:13] Laura Camien: In my case, I think I was trying to counter my illness and the fatigue.

[28:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:19] Laura Camien: So trying to feel better, trying to solve a problem.

[28:23] Susan Blackwell: And it was something you could do that didn't actually exert a lot of energy.

[28:27] Laura Camien: You could lie in bed and do it, even though you weren't doing anything.

[28:30] Susan Blackwell: But here's a performance art project for you.

[28:33] Laura Camien: Like a film of some performance artist has to have done this.

[28:37] Susan Blackwell: If you just filmed me in that bed still, but my thumb just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling for hours on end.

[28:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[28:48] Susan Blackwell: And then just put that in a white gallery and play it in real time on a loop.

[28:53] Laura Camien: Well, it's that movie WALL-E, like, you know, where it's all the humans are just um, you know, down to just like this little movement.

[29:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, just being fed nutrition pellets and just rolling around in their little wheelies. But where were we? Oh, yes. Dr. Lemke then asks us to list the problems associated with our use, which could include things like I feel worse afterwards, or my attention span is dwindling, or my drug of choice is not working as well as it used to. And then we can try an abstinence fast, also known as a dopamine fast. Dr. Lempke says we need to abstain from our drug of choice long enough so we can return to homeostasis. She quantifies that at about 30 days. She says it takes about 30 days not only to return to homeostasis, it also takes about the same 30 days to begin to feel better. Wow. She encourages this reframe.

Instead of thinking of it as I'm denying myself this reward, think of it as I am giving myself a gift. Although this drug of choice might feel good in the moment, it's hurting me in the long run. For myself, Laura, I think of it as giving myself the gift of freedom. Freedom from this attention economy system that wants to mine my mind, that wants to convince me to buy shit I don't need, freedom from this scrolling mold that wants to bore wormholes into my brain that wants to pacify me and tell me what I should think about things. To me, that reframe is I'm giving myself the gift of freedom from this bullshit.

[30:44] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes to that.

[30:47] Susan Blackwell: Before your dopamine fast, give yourself time to prepare. Let your loved ones know what you're going to do so they can provide care and support, especially in the early days. Let them know that you are going to feel bad before you feel better, because in the first two weeks, you are indeed going to feel worse before you feel better. You can count on feeling the universal feelings of withdrawal. Those feelings can include anxiety, irritability, insomnia, depression, and craving. But if you hang in there, it will get better.

[31:33] Laura Camien: So forget it. I'll just go back to using.

[31:34] Susan Blackwell: Right. I want to reach out to you and tell you, I felt this. I remember saying to my husband about one week into my dopamine reset, I just want to want something. Oh, I wanted something to want.

[31:50] Laura Camien: Wow, that makes me feel sad.

[31:53] Susan Blackwell: It is sad. It is sad. But she says, although you will feel worse before you feel better, if you can hold on for 14 days, you will feel better. And again, I'm here to tell you the discomfort of withdrawal will ease. You will feel better. You will, you will. You just have to hang in there. She said it's really important to know what your triggers are. Write them down and think about how you can reduce triggers in your life. So if you're addicted to video games, you might want to delete gaming apps and the trigger, stop watching online videos of other people playing video games. Dr. Lempke said she realized listening to pop music. I actually understand this. Listening to pop music was a trigger for her with romance novels. So she had to set aside listening to pop music during her dopamine reset.

[32:44] Laura Camien: Here's why I related to that. I don't know if I'm off target, Dr. Lemke. Not that you'll ever hear this, but when I read Twilight, the feeling that it gave me a great feeling. I felt like a teenager again.

[32:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say, did it feel like high school?

[32:58] Laura Camien: I felt like high school again in the best way.

[33:01] Susan Blackwell: And I bet pop music, I bet she was like, I feel like a teenager again.

[33:07] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah. Just a guess. I'm not Dr. Anna Lemke, nor am I her therapist or confidant. Dr. Lempke also encourages planning out if-then alternatives. If I have a craving for X, I can do Y. If I have a craving to scroll TikTok, I can crochet or paint with the watercolor set on the counter, or start a conversation with my husband, or meditate. Oftentimes what I actually needed was rest. That's what I really needed, not scrolling.

[33:35] Susan Blackwell: Interesting. Or I could play with my dogs. She said it's very important to prepare this in advance because in the throes of desire, we are basically helpless and we need to have a list of alternatives.

[33:49] Laura Camien: And isn't it funny that that list that you just mentioned are things that I know you want to do? There's they are the things that you'll lament not having any time for.

[33:59] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Like in this case, you're like, oh no, this is the time that I have for them. I have the time that I used to spend on social media.

[34:07] Laura Camien: Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding-ding ding.

[34:10] Susan Blackwell: Dr. Lemke also suggests something called self-binding strategies, because we cannot rely on willpower alone. These are barriers we put between ourselves and our drug of choice so we can press pause on consumption. Things like space, getting our drug of choice further away. So that's deleting apps so they're not on our phone. That's if you're addicted to cigarettes, running water over them and then throwing them away so you can't smoke them. Another self-binding strategy is time. The 30-day dopamine fast is time. Another one, oh, this got me, is meaning. Reflect on how we are using and whether it's in line with our values. With digital media, she asks, would you feel comfortable handing over your smartphone and letting someone browse through everything you've visited in the past 24 hours?

If not, maybe rethink if the use of your drug of choice aligns with your values. Now, for me, I would be fine. I'd be proud to hand someone my phone. The content I browse, it's all like rescue dogs and artists and recipes. What doesn't align with my values is that I am a person who champions creativity and values freedom. And I am not creating because I am compulsively scrolling. That does not feel creative or free. That does not align with my values and meaning. And that, if I let it, could be a source of shame. I'm choosing not to be ashamed about it.

[35:37] Laura Camien: That's right.

[35:38] Susan Blackwell: But I could be. And the last self-binding strategy she presents is people. We can regulate our consumption based on who we're hanging out with, peer recovery groups, a sober social network, an accountability partner. So that might be a friend like Laura, or, I mean, if you're me, if you're being Susan, or my husband, you know, relying on people and being honest with people about what I'm working on, right?

[36:06] Laura Camien: Yeah. 100%.

[36:08] Susan Blackwell: Additionally, to regain balance, what we need, I thought about you, Laura, as I was writing this. What we need is not more comfort and more pleasure. We need to seek out things that are hard and reinvest in things that are challenging, like exercise, meditation and prayer, cold exposure, like a little just a little cold blast at the end of the shower. Listening to people we care about, like really getting present and listening and doing these things even when we don't feel like doing them, even when it feels boring. Dr. Lempke talks about how she engaged with a 30-day dopamine reset in relation to her romance novels. After 30 days, she spent a weekend binging romance novels, went to work on Monday again, bleary and exhausted, realized the 30 days weren't going to cut it, so she abstained for an entire year.

And she noticed that she became much more present with her children, her husband, her patients. She started feeling better. And she stressed the importance of this because again, she had not previously made the connection between her drug of choice and her worsening mood and anxiety.

[37:22] Laura Camien: And here's the kicker, Laura. Here's here's the gag of it all.

[37:26] Susan Blackwell: Giving up her drug of choice allowed her to reinvest that time, energy, and creativity into things she really cared about. And she rediscovered a whole realm of creativity that she would not have previously discovered, including writing her book, Dopamine Nation. Wow. She said she wouldn't have undertaken writing that book had she still been involved in her drug of choice. If she hadn't kicked her romanticy habit, that book would not exist. And instead of talking to you now, I might still be addicted to TikTok. The creative work you make matters, people. It matters. It matters. It matters.

[38:06] Laura Camien: Yeah. My God. And that book has like people have gone crazy for it. It's exactly what we all needed.

[38:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So wow. Dr. Lemke stresses recovery is not a straight line. She would not recommend this for someone again who is at risk of life-threatening withdrawal from alcohol, opioids, et cetera. Those folks need to seek medical attention. She also recommends that if you have tried repeatedly to stop using your drug of choice repeatedly and unsuccessfully, you may need to seek a higher level of care. But for commonplace, milder forms of compulsive overconsumption, taking a break for 30 days can be enough to begin to reset your neural pathways. And I'm here to tell you it worked for me. I'm just one person. This is just one person's experience, but I have been off of TikTok for quite a while now. And I feel like I have my brain back.

[39:03] Laura Camien: Right.

[39:04] Susan Blackwell: And I just saw a headline in this morning's New York Times. Europe accuses TikTok of addictive design and pushes for change. This morning, regulators released a preliminary decision that TikTok's infinite scroll, autoplay features, and recommendation algorithm amount to an addictive design that violated European Union laws for online safety. The service poses potential harm to the physical and mental well-being of users, including minors and vulnerable adults, the European Commission said in a statement.

[39:50] Laura Camien: But the brain you rot will not be my brain, and the attention paid will not be mine.

[39:56] Susan Blackwell: Yay! So, to recap, if you are ready, we invite you to identify your drug of choice by asking yourself, what do I turn to when I'm tired, stressed, bored, and I'll add sick? What do I do more than I intend? What do I hide or feel ashamed about? And what leaves me feeling worse after, not better? Track your use for a week, pick a start date, tell someone, write down your triggers, create your if-then plan, choose your self-binding strategies, and remember, you will feel worse before you feel better. You can find all of this in Dr. Anna Lemke's book, Dopamine Nation, which I highly recommend. And I'll close it out with a little what do we make of it.

[40:43] Laura Camien: What do we make of it?

[40:46] Susan Blackwell: We make freedom from these man-made, super addictive systems and substances. And with the time and energy and creativity we buy back, we make whatever the fuck we want. If you're Anna Lemke, you write a book. If you're me, you paint, or you pour it into your relationships or your business. You exercise your freedom. You make a life. You make a life. IRL, baby. And that is my spark.

[41:19] Laura Camien: Oh, I love it, Susan. I think this spark is gonna help a lot of people.

[41:25] Susan Blackwell: I hope so. I know it was a long one. But it felt important.

[41:29] Laura Camien: It was a good one, and it is important. And it's so good to have you back, not just from TikTok, but you know, from all of it.

[41:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, friends, I'm back, and that's it. This episode of the Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape and the Mohican people. And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to accomplish your creative goals, you can email get creative at thesparkfile.com or even reach us through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[42:09] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really helps other listeners to find us. And if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, you didn't like it.

[42:22] Susan Blackwell: You didn't like it. On the other hand, if something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know, you gotta take it and make it make something, y'all. Make a life. IRL. When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files. Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I'll pump it in the spark files. I jump into my spark files. Let's open up the sparkfile.