This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] The Spark File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:03] Please use your discretion.

[0:09] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:17] Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] I pump it in my spark spot.

[0:26] Spark.

[0:28] I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Let's open up the spark vibe.

[0:36] Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people clarify and accomplish their creative goals.

[0:51] You should know that just by listening to this podcast, you're joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[0:58] But you might also be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[0:58] A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:08] Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:13] And from time to time, you never know.

[1:17] We're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:20] And your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take some of those sparks of inspiration and make something of your own.

[1:26] So without further ado, let's open up the Spark File.

[1:31] Hi, Laura.

[1:32] Hi, Suze.

[1:34] I want to say I really enjoyed us talking, just so you all know.

[1:38] Prior to talking on the podcast for, you know, 30 minutes, we talked for two hours, just shooting the shit.

[1:47] Just talking.

[1:48] About life lifing and all its glory.

[1:52] So we're nice and warmed up, I'd say.

[1:55] Totally warmed up and relaxed.

[1:57] I also just want to acknowledge my allergies are in full spring mode.

[2:03] So I guarantee my nose will be running throughout this podcast.

[2:06] And now that we capture this on video, well, there's a treat for everybody.

[2:11] Nice.

[2:11] All you friends watching on social media.

[2:13] We're gonna see an appearance by the Kleenex throughout the episode.

[2:18] I look forward to it, Susan.

[2:19] I'm sorry for you.

[2:20] I'm gonna live and I'm gonna persevere.

[2:23] It's gonna be fine.

[2:25] Stay cold, pony boy.

[2:27] Stay cold.

[2:29] Okay.

[2:30] Listen, do you are you ready to be sparked?

[2:33] I'm so excited.

[2:35] Yes, I'm ready to go.

[2:36] I think you might be a little bit interested in this topic.

[2:39] We'll see.

[2:40] We'll see.

[2:40] Okay.

[2:41] Okay.

[2:41] Let me tell you how I came to this topic.

[2:44] I was I noticed that in the final episode of Ryan Murphy's JFK Jr.

[2:49] and Carolyn Bissett's love story.

[2:52] Have you been watching?

[2:53] No.

[2:54] Okay.

[2:55] Well, the internet has been ablaze about it because you know it's JFK Jr.

[2:59] and New York City in the 90s.

[3:02] Ever since I detoxed my dopamine and I haven't been on social media as much, I feel like there are many cultural things that pass me by, like this Ryan Murphy joint.

[3:12] But I'm going to say that that's a fair price to pay.

[3:16] And I get to hear about it from you.

[3:18] Yeah.

[3:19] And you lived it.

[3:20] Also, I lived it.

[3:21] Yeah, we lived it.

[3:23] So I'm not going to spend much time on this.

[3:25] I'm just first of all confessing that I did, in fact, have to break my own, you know, how I cut off all my streamers.

[3:33] Yeah.

[3:34] I did have to get Hulu again to watch it, but now we no longer have Hulu.

[3:39] So it was it was a brief little stay.

[3:41] But I guess I wanted that nostalgia.

[3:44] Like I kind of did want to remember New York City in the 90s.

[3:48] Yeah, before the internet, before all that we live with now.

[3:53] And I remember the weekend distinctly.

[3:58] Remember the weekend.

[3:59] Their plane went down, and I was like glued to the television.

[4:03] I could not stop crying.

[4:05] I'd never met these people.

[4:06] Wow.

[4:07] I mean, I mean, I saw JFK Jr.

[4:09] rollerblading in the streets more than once, but I never met him.

[4:13] I don't know them.

[4:14] But yet there was something about it, like the loss of potential was so sad.

[4:23] And the show kind of mentions that too, of like he will always be remembered for what could have been.

[4:32] That's some ambiguous grief right there.

[4:34] That is some ambiguous grief.

[4:36] That's some ambiguous grief.

[4:38] So anyway, in the final episode of the series, the two characters, JFK Jr.

[4:42] and his wife Carolyn, talk about this idea of like having a sign above their head.

[4:48] And his was something like, I forget exactly, but it was something about like, I'm America's prince, I need you to love me, or something like that.

[4:59] And his character says, You never did tell me what the sign above your head says.

[5:04] And she responds with my sign would say, not as strong as she pretends to be.

[5:12] Please handle with care.

[5:15] Which I thought was a really sweet scene.

[5:18] Um just made me emotional now for some reason.

[5:22] Um, but it got me thinking about this concept that you and I have talked about many times in our 25 year friendship.

[5:31] And that is the idea of people needing to come with their own little instruction manuals.

[5:38] Susan Blackwell: Invisible rule book, yes.

[5:40] The invisible rule book.

[5:41] Like we have met some complicated people, people who have literal landmines surrounding them, and you don't really know it until you've taken a step toward them in the wrong way, and you practically can like hear that click of the trap locking in, and you cannot move, you know, that sort of like, oh shit moment.

[6:04] Like I've really stepped in it now.

[6:07] I wish I could have seen this coming.

[6:09] If only I had known they had this particular issue.

[6:15] Or sometimes it's not that dramatic.

[6:17] It's just that you might have a new relationship or a new friendship, and you're just trying to learn each other's sensitivities and idiosyncrasies, and maybe your relationship is a little bit wobbly, like on its little baby fawn legs, and it just doesn't have the strength to endure a single missed connection.

[6:36] Like sometimes some things can't survive that first road bump, but they might, if only you knew, like where the potholes were, you know.

[6:48] That's a lot of metaphor in there.

[6:50] We got potholes, we got landmines, we got bear traps, road bumps, fawn legs, yeah.

[6:56] So hang with me here.

[6:58] You you get what I'm saying.

[7:00] We get taught, I think that like being direct about our needs in particular is potentially rude or I don't know, selfish or but I personally have been so appreciative when people are very clear, like this is what I need, because then I get to determine whether or not I think I can provide that.

[7:24] And if not, why not?

[7:26] Right.

[7:27] Yeah.

[7:28] I remember meeting a woman in my 20s who was very eager and very excited to be my friend.

[7:34] And she made that very clear.

[7:36] There was no missing it.

[7:38] And she said to me, I want to talk on the phone every day.

[7:42] I want to tell each other everything.

[7:45] And it all sounded awesome.

[7:47] Like it was describing my fantasy best friendship in fifth grade.

[7:53] But at that time in my life, that's not where I was.

[7:58] I was traveling all the time.

[8:00] I was opening Blue Man shows, I was doing my own work and just maintaining that level of interaction was barely possible for me.

[8:11] Totally.

[8:12] So I had to say, thankfully, though, she was very clear with me, which meant that I got to say very clearly back, I want to be your friend, but I don't think that I can maintain that.

[8:25] If you're cool with like less frequent but equally enthusiastic interaction, we're gonna be fine.

[8:33] But if you really truly need conversations every day and telling each other everything, I don't think I'm your gal.

[8:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[8:43] I appreciated it.

[8:46] So on the other hand, when people say what they think is polite or nice, or they say everything is fine, but really they need you to read their mind and know that it isn't fine, or know that somehow you should have known that even though they said that was okay, it really wasn't okay.

[9:09] This is really, really tough.

[9:12] Yeah.

[9:13] And I'm not saying I've never been guilty of that, by the way.

[9:16] But as I've gotten so much older and so much wiser, I do try not to do that if possible.

[9:24] And if I can catch myself, I will like even if I like automatically be like, no, no, no, it's no problem.

[9:30] If I can catch myself in that next moment and be like, actually, I do have a preference, and my preference would be this.

[9:37] I try to find a way to articulate it because people can't meet or exceed expectations that they don't know exist.

[9:46] Susan Blackwell: Invisible rule book.

[9:47] Invisible rule books.

[9:49] So I know that the trouble is the more that something matters to us, or the deeper the pain is, or the stronger the fear or the vulnerability, the harder it is to communicate that clearly.

[10:10] And I know because people are usually like people will say to me with regularity, oh, you're such a good communicator.

[10:19] Anything in that realm, great at communicate.

[10:21] I've literally made a living as a communicator.

[10:25] But try talking to me when my heart is hurting.

[10:30] Yeah.

[10:31] And suddenly it's like a word salad, it's a smorgasbord of like feelings, and it's a mess.

[10:40] It's messy.

[10:42] Which is why you and I have often asked the question in one way or another what if we all came with an instruction manual?

[10:52] Like how many relationships would have a better shot at surviving?

[10:56] How much pain could we avoid inflicting on others?

[11:01] So, Susan, just a heads up.

[11:04] In a moment, I'm going to ask you what a few things in your personal instruction manual might say.

[11:11] Like what you might want people to know right off the bat rather than learning by trial and error.

[11:18] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[11:19] I'm going to do that.

[11:19] But before I put you on the spot, I did some thinking on this because I was like, well, Laura, if you're going to ask the question, you got to do the work.

[11:27] Yeah, yeah.

[11:27] I love this.

[11:28] Okay.

[11:28] Laura Camien: So I will share a few things. And please feel free to tell me. Like, if you're like, uh, no, I wouldn't have said that about you, Laura. But um, here's what I would love my instruction manual to say that might be helpful. I want to talk about deep and meaningful topics. The more true the better. I can talk about the weather and things like that if we need to, but I am gonna want to get off that topic as soon as possible. I want to talk about ideas and concepts instead of gossiping about other people or talking about things that are not meaningful.

[12:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:10] Laura Camien: Another thing about me is that if I love you, I most likely want to make things together or support each other as we make things.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[12:21] Laura Camien: And back to point number one, those would be meaningful things, things that we mean something to us. But it will be difficult for me to ask for it. If I have asked for it, it's kind of a big deal. That's not gonna happen very often.

[12:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:44] Laura Camien: Probably it's gonna be like I have avoided every other possible scenario, and now I must ask for your support. My nervous system is ultra sensitive. I can feel a feather drifting to the ground in the room next door. Like I can literally feel the air change when someone's mood changes. Do you know the sound of somebody not breathing in a room? Like the sound of someone holding their breath.

[13:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:17] Laura Camien: I hear that sound clear as day. Micro expressions, a thought crossed your mind for like a nanosecond. I saw it, yeah, I felt it, I didn't miss it. Please know this is not the gift I asked for, but it is the gift I got.

[13:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:38] Laura Camien: And after years and years of learning to regulate, I am much better at not allowing those signals to throw me off. But it does still happen sometimes. I don't love it and I'm not proud of it. Um, but I can't, I don't, I can't turn it off. I can only learn not to respond to it. Does that make sense?

[13:59] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[14:00] Laura Camien: Is all of this ringing true, Susan?

[14:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:03] Laura Camien: And your knowledge of me.

[14:04] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[14:05] Laura Camien: Yep. Yep. All right. What else would I need you to know? Oh, I might cry. I'd put money on it. That that might be the sign above my head. Um, I might cry. But the fact is, it's very likely that I will cry.

[14:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:21] Laura Camien: However, I still want you to talk to me. I still want you to tell me the truth.

[14:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:27] Laura Camien: Even if I get teary, yeah, I'll be okay. I can hang in there. There just might be tears as I'm hanging in there. But I can hang. The worst, like for me, I'm like, I absolutely hate it if someone like wants to talk to me about something and I get teary and they decide no, they're not gonna talk to me about it because I might cry.

[14:50] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

[14:51] Laura Camien: Crying is okay. I'm gonna be okay.

[14:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:55] Laura Camien: If I have big emotions, I might need like 24 hours to sleep on it and figure out exactly what I'm feeling and how to articulate it. I think I do better when I've had a moment to figure out what is going on in me.

[15:13] Susan Blackwell: Probably most people do, trying to get that window of time down.

[15:18] Laura Camien: But um, but if it's a really, really, really big feeling, I can typically use some time to sort out in my own mind in my own body what's happening. If we are good friends, if you are in my inner circle, if you are at my lunch table at school and I have saved you a spot, that means I want to know you, warts and all.

[15:46] Susan Blackwell: I want to be burdened by you.

[15:49] Laura Camien: I want the opportunity to support you the way that you support me. I want that and I welcome that. So I don't want you to be like, no, no, I don't want to bother Laura. Having said that, I will also say in my instruction manual, expectations scare me.

[16:10] Susan Blackwell: Not because I don't love you, but because I am always worried that I'm going to disappoint.

[16:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:18] Susan Blackwell: And I will forever be learning to trust myself and my ability to deliver on expectations.

[16:28] Laura Camien: So let's ease into them.

[16:30] Susan Blackwell: And the last thing I thought of was that I have a deep need for safety and security and consistency.

[16:43] Laura Camien: But I also want adventure and expansion constantly.

[16:50] Susan Blackwell: I'm always wanting to expand and learn and grow.

[16:55] Laura Camien: And I need some stabilizing forces in my life.

[16:58] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[16:59] Laura Camien: So that's what I came up with. Now I feel really vulnerable that I just said all of that on the podcast. But you know what? There it is. I think these things are all true.

[17:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[17:06] Laura Camien: There it is.

[17:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[17:11] Laura Camien: So, Susan, do you have a few things that you would be willing to share? Like, what does the sign over your head say? Or what's some items in your personal instruction manual?

[17:21] Susan Blackwell: That is a fantastic question, Laura. And this is fresh because I didn't have time. I didn't sit and write about it.

[17:27] Laura Camien: I'm sprung it on you.

[17:31] Susan Blackwell: But I was recently having a conversation with some dear friends who I've been friends with for nearly 40 years. And next year will be our like our 40th friend of versary.

[17:45] Laura Camien: Wow.

[17:46] Susan Blackwell: And I was saying to them some of these things, which I think would apply to the question you just asked me. Things like, I do really well with people who can pick up with me right where we left off.

[18:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:02] Susan Blackwell: So if we haven't seen each other in a year or five or 15, but there wasn't an outstanding conflict or anything, we can just pick right back up, go deep, have fun, like all of it. I do really, really well with people like that.

[18:22] Laura Camien: And and nobody's keeping score or keeping track of God Laura, no, nobody's keeping score and no punishment.

[18:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[18:22] Laura Camien: No punishment.

[18:31] Susan Blackwell: I also I do well with people who can love and accept me as a person who is not going to remember to send you a birthday card on the day of your birthday or one day before.

[18:49] Laura Camien: Yep.

[18:50] Susan Blackwell: I am not going to give you your holiday gift at the holidays, like it might be three months later. I feel like you and I have done really well together because we have zero expectations of each other that we'll even remember to give a gift.

[19:09] Laura Camien: And again, no one's keeping score.

[19:11] Susan Blackwell: So it's not, it's just gifts come when they when they want and need to be given.

[19:18] Laura Camien: Yes.

[19:19] Susan Blackwell: I have loved this about you from the moment that we became friends oh so many years ago. And also subscribe to this, like, if I love you, I'm going to gift you things.

[19:32] Laura Camien: This is just it's just going to happen.

[19:34] Susan Blackwell: I'm going to gift you things. And sometimes you may feel like this gift is associated with a reason of some kind. And sometimes, like, there is no reason. It's just, I found it, I saw it, I thought of you, I want you to have it.

[19:45] Laura Camien: And you have always been that way as well.

[19:48] Susan Blackwell: I think everybody should have something about their gift giving rules in their personal manual. I really do because some people are like very thrown off by like, I don't want a gift.

[19:59] Laura Camien: Oh, okay, all right.

[20:01] Susan Blackwell: I under uh sorry, you know, I understood it because in their invisible rule book, a gift from you means a quid pro quo.

[20:09] Laura Camien: That's right.

[20:10] Susan Blackwell: They have to give a gift. Like that's a message that they got from their parents or from their elementary school teacher or whatever the case may be.

[20:16] Laura Camien: That's right.

[20:17] Susan Blackwell: And so it puts them in a position.

[20:19] Laura Camien: That's right.

[20:20] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. And so if you knew that about them, yeah, I would never like I if I read their rule book and was like, oh, okay, there they don't want gifts, certainly not random gifts, and maybe not even gifts around holidays.

[20:34] Laura Camien: Okay, good to know.

[20:36] Susan Blackwell: But it is an awkward moment when people discover for the first time what each other's gift giving rules are.

[20:43] Laura Camien: What else?

[20:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, tell me what else.

[20:45] Laura Camien: Another one that I can think of is I have said things to people and made myself clear, but my voice doesn't sound much different than it sounds now.

[20:58] Susan Blackwell: And because it's not highly heightened or emotional.

[21:04] Laura Camien: People don't necessarily get it.

[21:08] Susan Blackwell: They don't realize how important it is to you.

[21:10] Laura Camien: That was you were very clearly stating a need.

[21:14] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes I don't scream, shout, cry when I'm saying important things, it can be hard for people to clock the importance of it and the weight of it.

[21:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:28] Susan Blackwell: That makes so much sense.

[21:30] Laura Camien: So that would be in my invisible rule book.

[21:32] Susan Blackwell: Anything else?

[21:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:34] Susan Blackwell: This isn't that groundbreaking, but I do not tolerate meanness.

[21:41] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[21:41] Susan Blackwell: Or hard teasing.

[21:44] Laura Camien: That sort of thing.

[21:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I don't feel safe around that. And I will shed you from my life.

[21:51] Laura Camien: Boom.

[21:52] Susan Blackwell: Yes, to that. And you just made me think of another one that needs to go in mine. I can't believe I didn't put this up there.

[22:01] Laura Camien: Do not mistake my kindness for weakness.

[22:04] Susan Blackwell: Maybe that's what your sign says.

[22:05] Laura Camien: I think it used to happen more often than it does now because I've made adjustments. I still have a lot of kindness, but I I'm less likely to be adopted by anyone who wants me to be a doormat.

[22:20] Susan Blackwell: What did you say yours was?

[22:21] Laura Camien: Your sign?

[22:22] Susan Blackwell: It could be I might cry, but I still want you to tell me I still want to get vulnerable with you.

[22:27] Laura Camien: I'm okay.

[22:28] Susan Blackwell: Maybe it's I might cry, don't be scared.

[22:31] Laura Camien: Yes, exactly.

[22:32] Susan Blackwell: It's more that. But for a good period of my life, it probably would and could have been and should have been do not mistake my kindness for weakness. People had to figure that out. I had to figure that out.

[22:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[22:45] Laura Camien: Okay.

[22:46] Susan Blackwell: Back to you.

[22:46] Laura Camien: Tell me another.

[22:48] Susan Blackwell: I don't know if I I can't think of any.

[22:50] Laura Camien: And I don't know what my I will give more thought to this. I don't know what my sign would say.

[22:55] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[22:56] Laura Camien: I have to think about that.

[22:57] Laura Camien: But that'll be a fun thing to ponder.

[23:01] Susan Blackwell: I like that.

[23:02] Laura Camien: So thanks for going on that ride with me, Susan.

[23:05] Susan Blackwell: It's a little vulnerable, right?

[23:07] Laura Camien: But it's also so clarifying.

[23:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[23:09] Laura Camien: I was a little bit like, am I really gonna share this on the podcast?

[23:13] Susan Blackwell: And then I thought, well, why not? Because it is what I would want anybody who like wants to know me at any meaningful level, I would want you to know these things.

[23:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[23:22] Laura Camien: And probably like the thing about having a personal um like user manual is that like it helps everybody.

[23:32] Laura Camien: One, if you know these things up front, you can kind of determine like, oh, I don't think this is gonna be, you know, I I think I'm probably not for you and you might not be for me.

[23:42] Laura Camien: Um, but it's a fun thing to just clarify for yourself as well.

[23:48] Laura Camien: Because I wasn't proud of all these things. I just am like, these just are things, and some of them I've worked really, really hard to improve upon and regulate and do better.

[24:01] Laura Camien: But they are still things.

[24:03] Susan Blackwell: So something I found really interesting is that I've thought a lot about this topic in regard to like interpersonal relationships, work relationships, friendships, um, romantic relationships, etc.

[24:14] Laura Camien: But when I went to do a little research on the topic, I discovered that there are workplaces that implement an exercise of creating and sharing user manuals, also sometimes called me manuals.

[24:29] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[24:30] Laura Camien: I had no idea.

[24:31] Susan Blackwell: I had no idea.

[24:32] Laura Camien: So, according to Psychology Today, this is a quote creating a user manual is an exercise in self-understanding for the person creating the document, helping them to become more aware of their own behaviors and how these behaviors may impact others.

[24:47] Laura Camien: It's also an exercise in understanding others when that document is shared with a team.

[24:53] Laura Camien: A user manual helps people get to know one another quickly and understand how others like to work and communicate, which helps people collaborate more effectively.

[25:03] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[25:04] Laura Camien: Me too.

[25:05] Laura Camien: It also helps avoid misunderstandings.

[25:08] Laura Camien: For example, when people shut down, go quiet and inward, when they're under stress, while others tend to be irritable and impatient.

[25:16] Susan Blackwell: So knowing how others respond to stress helps us interpret these behaviors.

[25:21] Laura Camien: Brilliant.

[25:22] Laura Camien: So I dug into that a little bit.

[25:24] Laura Camien: I saw some really extensive ones, like some that I was like, whoa, I don't know how much of that I would feel comfortable sharing in a work environment.

[25:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[25:33] Laura Camien: Obviously, it depends on how much trust has been established in the space.

[25:39] Laura Camien: But like these user manuals can include basic about me information, like five adjectives I use to describe myself.

[25:48] Laura Camien: What might surprise you about me is dot dot dot.

[25:51] Laura Camien: They might include details about how you like to work, like I try to structure my day so that A, B, and C.

[25:58] Laura Camien: I'm most productive during these times.

[26:00] Laura Camien: I'm most available during these times.

[26:02] Laura Camien: An open door means this, a closed door means that.

[26:06] Susan Blackwell: That's so good to know because you never know, like, you know, how to approach people.

[26:11] Laura Camien: And of course, communication preferences.

[26:14] Laura Camien: The best way to contact me is this.

[26:16] Laura Camien: Something you should know about how I like to communicate is this.

[26:20] Laura Camien: But here at the Spark File, as you know, we're always wanting to relate everything to your creativity and to ask, what do we make of this?

[26:30] Laura Camien: I can't help but think one of the very best ways we might implement the idea of a user manual is when heading into collaborations.

[26:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[26:41] Laura Camien: We've talked about this before.

[26:43] Susan Blackwell: We have both had collaborations that crashed and burned, that live in the graveyard of incomplete projects or closed doors.

[26:52] Laura Camien: And we've had collaborations that survived but could have been less stressful if only we had known more about ourselves and others before jumping into bed creatively speaking.

[27:03] Laura Camien: So I'm here today suggesting that if you plan to work with anyone in any creative capacity, you get clear on a few of your own needs and preferences first, then learn to articulate them clearly, and then inquire about your potential partners' needs and preferences.

[27:22] Laura Camien: What are the things you think any collaborator needs to know about you, your working style, the way you communicate and want to be communicated to, and what would you want to know about them?

[27:34] Laura Camien: One absolute no-brainer is that you need to talk about how you prefer to give and receive feedback.

[27:54] Laura Camien: Or the way I give feedback is typically this.

[27:57] Laura Camien: At the Spark File, we never give feedback without consent.

[28:01] Laura Camien: And if somebody says they are not currently open to feedback in that particular moment, or not open to a specific kind of feedback in that moment, we honor it completely with no judgment.

[28:14] Laura Camien: We do not subscribe to this idea that you have to be open and receptive to all kinds of feedback at any given moment.

[28:22] Laura Camien: We can be more intentional about it.

[28:24] Laura Camien: But as you might imagine, people have very deep-seated ideas about what it means to be a really easy to work with uh creative and what that means in terms of feedback and what they have to be willing to receive at any moment.

[28:41] Laura Camien: So you can see how feedback is one of those areas where my God, you want to know up front what each other's preferences are before you go wading into those waters.

[28:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:54] Laura Camien: You might also want to know how they prefer to resolve conflict and their expectations around communication.

[29:03] Susan Blackwell: Susan, what were you gonna say in regards to what we make of it?

[29:09] Susan Blackwell: I was gonna say this extends into character.

[29:14] Susan Blackwell: So if you're a writer and you're writing the move, the screenplay for When Harry Met Sally, you have Meg Ryan's character Sally, who is basically saying out loud, here's my rules about how I order at a restaurant, here's my rules about what I want in a relationship, and you also have the Billy Crystal's character, Harry, who has kind of is unpacking a different set of rules.

[29:41] Susan Blackwell: And I think it might be interesting.

[29:43] Susan Blackwell: Or a belief system about himself that he doesn't have any rule.

[29:46] Susan Blackwell: He's he's freewheeling, he's easygoing.

[29:49] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[29:49] Susan Blackwell: And so I think it might be an interesting exercise if you were trying to flesh out characters that you were writing for a book, a screenplay, a play.

[30:00] Susan Blackwell: What do their invisible rule books contain?

[30:03] Susan Blackwell: And how might they clash against each other?

[30:06] Susan Blackwell: And clash against reality, because keep in mind what a person believes to be true about themselves may actually differ from the way they appear in the world.

[30:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:19] Susan Blackwell: Um, which is another fascinating thing.

[30:21] Susan Blackwell: And I think that's we love characters who are like that.

[30:24] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, oh, Sally doesn't think that she's high maintenance.

[30:29] Susan Blackwell: But to the rest of the world, watching her order her sandwich or salad, she's absolutely high maintenance.

[30:38] Laura Camien: So it's really it is that is an incredible idea, Susan.

[30:43] Laura Camien: Have the character do it from their point of view and what they believe to be true.

[30:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I just like the idea of that.

[30:48] Laura Camien: I love that idea.

[30:50] Susan Blackwell: I like the spark.

[30:51] Laura Camien: Yeah, we need a me manual, if for no other reason than to better understand ourselves.

[30:57] Laura Camien: I think it's so smart for um businesses, teams to do this, and you can decide how deep you want to go and how involved the exercise wants to be.

[31:10] Susan Blackwell: But I I do think it's really smart for collaborations.

[31:14] Laura Camien: Also, I will tell you at this age that I am now, I have recently fantasized like, could we all just reveal this stuff about ourselves a little bit earlier in the process so that we can determine a little bit more quickly if we're going to be compatible in two weeks, a year, five years, twelve years on our deathbeds?

[31:38] Laura Camien: Like, could could we just make the invisible rule book visible?

[31:42] Susan Blackwell: Could we?

[31:42] Laura Camien: Might we could, and I also want to say, but not in our stories, because so many stories are about the revealing of rules that are we are not uh privy to at the beginning of a relationship.

[31:56] Laura Camien: And those discoveries are delightful.

[31:58] Laura Camien: A little less so in real life when we are trying to simply get along.

[32:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[32:06] Laura Camien: Um, but yeah, it's it's so good.

[32:09] Laura Camien: If we can learn to articulate our needs and preferences to loved ones and to creative collaborators so that we all get a jump on a great relationship rather than having to learn by trial and error and only after a lot of drama potentially finding out that you're not as compatible as you had hoped.

[32:30] Susan Blackwell: I love this, Laura.

[32:31] Laura Camien: What a fun spark.

[32:32] Susan Blackwell: Hey, happy to provide.

[32:35] Laura Camien: I think that's it.

[32:36] Susan Blackwell: This episode of the Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape and the Mohican people.

[32:41] Laura Camien: And as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[32:44] Laura Camien: Hey, listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to rock with the Spark File, you can email get creative at thesparkfile.com or reach us through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[32:59] Laura Camien: We will even happily take your feedback.

[33:01] Laura Camien: But you know the price of admission.

[33:03] Laura Camien: First, you got to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[33:07] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate and five-star review this podcast.

[33:14] Laura Camien: It really does help other listeners to find us.

[33:17] Laura Camien: Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love.

[33:21] Laura Camien: And if you didn't like it, I've got a rule in my invisible rule book.

[33:26] Laura Camien: If you didn't like it, why don't you suck a butt?

[33:28] Susan Blackwell: Hey, suck a butt.

[33:30] Laura Camien: If something lights you up, on the other hand, and gets your creative sparks flying.

[33:36] Laura Camien: We're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[33:41] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[33:45] Susan Blackwell: You know, you gotta take it and make it.

[33:50] Laura Camien: What's my sign above my head?

[33:52] Susan Blackwell: Can I say?

[33:53] Laura Camien: We're gonna figure it out.

[33:55] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[34:04] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[34:10] Laura Camien: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[34:14] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark files.

[34:19] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark fire.