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[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome back to The Theatre Podcast. Intimate personal conversations with the industry's biggest names. I'm your host, Alan Seales, and this episode is with Jackie Cox, who you probably know from season 12 of RuPaul's Drag Race. She is amazingly transparent about her journey to drag and just talking about the drag community. She actually took the opportunity to educate me and hopefully everyone else listening on a few things about how we think about gender identity versus actually assigning anatomical parts to people or discussing those sorts of topics or lack thereof. It was actually very, very eye-opening. I enjoyed it a lot. She actually has a podcast called A Do Take Nerd and through discussing that helped me make an obvious connection between the queer community and the nerd community of just basically anybody feeling like they maybe don't belong finding a tribe in performing or in having a passion about something.

So, this episode is uniquely different. I love it a lot. I hope you do, too. Please find me online on Instagram and Twitter at Theatre underscore podcast. Let me know what you think of the episode. Leave a comment. Leave a rating and review wherever you are listening now. And everybody, please enjoy this episode with Jackie Cox.

[1:33] Alan Seales: Today's guest may be best known as one of the top four contestants from season twelve of RuPaul's Drag Race and was the first queen of Iranian descent to appear on the show. In New York City, Jackie has been a long feature of the theatrical cabaret scene performing her own original shows at the famed Laurie Beachman Theatre. She's also appeared on TV in ABC's What Would You Do, Infusion's Shade, Queens of NYC, as well as numerous appearances on Bravo's Watch What Happens Live. She's back touring again doing her amazing live shows. Make sure to check her Instagram for ticket information and also has a wonderful podcast called A Do Take Nerd that is an amazingly funny intersection of queerness and nerddom. Jackie Cox, welcome to the theatre podcast.

[2:20] Jackie Cox: Thank you for having me. I'm so honored. I love that it's in my bio, it's like, is she top four? Is she top five? We'll never know for sure because of what happened my season of Drag Race. But you know what? I say let's take the higher number. Top four is fabulous.

[2:36] Alan Seales: Top four.

[2:37] Jackie Cox: Well, I want to be a finalist. Maybe I should go with that. Semi-finalist.

[2:42] Alan Seales: I want to get into, we'll get into RuPaul and all that stuff. I'm sure you've been asked about that a million times. I want to actually start with A Do Take Nerd.

[2:50] Jackie Cox: Yeah.

[2:51] Alan Seales: Which, of course, being a podcast host myself, I always love when people have their own podcasts. And it's interesting to me because it's the intersection of two things that I wouldn't have thought would make a good combination or a natural combination, I should say, queerness and nerddom. And I love that what everybody else knows about you, there's this other pocket that you're bringing out into the world now about being a big nerd, which being a nerd myself, I can totally relate to every single one of your episodes and everything you're talking about. But for those who don't know, tell us about A Do Take Nerd and why did you create it?

[3:31] Jackie Cox: So we just finished the first season. It's through World of Wonder Podcasts, which World of Wonder, for the listeners who don't know, is the production company who creates RuPaul's Drag Race. And so after the show wrapped, my season wrapped, they were like, how would you guys want to work with us in the future? And I was like, I had this idea for a podcast because I realized there's one of the... In one of the episodes of Drag Race, we met Whoopi Goldberg and my reaction to meeting her was like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to tell everyone at the next Star Trek convention I go to that I met Guinan from the 10 Forward Lounge of Star Trek Next Generation. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to take that very specific energy.

And I feel like I can't be alone here, especially even so many of the guests were queens from my season of Drag Race. And to find out all the things that they nerd out about was really exciting. And then to bring in folks who are like other queer figures in the nerd universe was really exciting. And what I think is interesting is I think what makes a nerd a nerd is their just kind of devotion and love of something. And I know we're all theater nerds here on this podcast. Of course, I have Playbills from like 20 years ago. I have all those nerdy kind of memorabilia of theater. But then there's other things we can be nerdy about too. And it's amazing to me how much being queer is not a factor in the sense that I would say most nerddoms are now especially welcoming of people from all different stripes.

And I think it's really important that we celebrate some of the queer themes that are found in a lot of these nerdy things. Certainly Broadway is very queer. And we can kind of embrace that and celebrate that. Find out where actually being queer was kind of an entry point for some of us into some of these fandoms. Seeing ourselves represented in ways that maybe weren't being traditionally represented. And I think that certainly has happened with theater since the dawn of theater. But certainly here in the United States in American theater, we had so many queer-coded characters. And also in theater was the first place we saw more representation of queer people than in movies and TV. I think we actually had more queer characters on the stage first.

[6:05] Jackie Cox: And I think that that's important to see yourself represented, whether in a literal sense as a queer character or in kind of the, I guess we could say, Tennessee Williams sense of kind of coded queer characters. So that's, I think, something that's always fun to explore. Always fun to talk about. And yeah, that was kind of the impetus for the podcast. And hopefully in season two, we'll go into more nerdy topics. But season one is available, all six episodes. So if you're bored after this, listen to that.

[6:37] Alan Seales: Well, there'll be a link in the show notes, of course. And as you were talking about that, it very much occurred to me how wrong I was in how I was just originally introducing this. I said two things that normally wouldn't go together, queerness and nerdom. But as you said that, I was thinking, yeah, of course, they go together. Like, we talk about finding your tribe and having a belonging and a sense of self and a sense of purpose. And before we started recording, I was telling you that, please let me know that if my questions as a cisgendered, straight, white male come across as ignorant or just phrased the wrong way, I want to know. Because I want to be educated, I want to be better. And I think this is one of those times when I just realized that my own precognition, my predisposition of what nerddom is, has never included queerness because it's never had to.

But based on what you just said, it absolutely has to. And I love that. I love that you just mentioned that because people who maybe feel alone in one way or another, no matter what they are, they find love with fellow nerds. Saying that in a positive way.

[7:57] Jackie Cox: Yeah, it is positive. And it also is a great entry point into seeing something beyond yourself. I think whether it's on stage or in a comic book or in a favorite movie or TV show, seeing representation of other people. I go back to Star Trek being the first interracial kiss on national television in the 60s.

[8:22] Alan Seales: Yes.

[8:23] Jackie Cox: And even though it was in an episode where the characters were under the influence of this, that, or the other problem of the day or what have you, it still mattered. And I think Star Trek works so much in allegory, and I know theater does as well. And I think whether you belong to a community or not, seeing it represented in the things that you're a nerd about helps give you an access point too. So that's so important. And I think about so many stories that have been told on stage, for example, and seeing them. Just even thinking to the biggest theater juggernaut of the last 10 years, which is Hamilton, and seeing a story that is about Alexander Hamilton, but it's really about what it is to be an outsider in America making it.

And to see so many people of color sharing that story was obviously so powerful and has now made millions of dollars. But you think of the two biggest theatrical properties on Broadway, the Lion King and Hamilton, and their stories... Hamilton's a story about a white person. Lion King was a story written by white people. But told through bringing in actually people of color onto the stage is so powerful, and I think is part of the reason why those two shows have continued to resonate and dominate. The Lion King the musical is the number one grossing entertainment property in the history of the world ever. Did you know that?

[10:00] Jackie Cox: No, I did not. I did not know that.

[10:02] Alan Seales: Not Lion King the movie, Lion King the musical, through ticket sales, and I think album sales from Lion King the musical may be incorporated as well, but through ticket sales, I believe, is the number one grossing entertainment property ever. It's made more money than Star Wars.

[10:18] Jackie Cox: Wow.

[10:18] Alan Seales: Lion King the musical has made billions of dollars.

[10:23] Jackie Cox: That's insane.

[10:25] Alan Seales: Yeah, isn't that crazy?

[10:26] Jackie Cox: I had no idea. I had no idea. I would have said Star Wars or even Star Trek.

[10:31] Alan Seales: No, Lion King the musical has made more money than anything ever. More than any album, more than I think anything. It's the number one entertainment property. I'm going to look it up just so that we have the number, but isn't that wild?

[10:47] Jackie Cox: Yeah, that's totally wild. While you're looking that up, I want to see if I can make a parallel. And let me know again if I'm completely off base here, but I guess pretending to be somebody else is appealing to a lot of people. That's why people love theater. That's why people love watching theater. And I want to make a comparison to the drag community because I think this is... Maybe I was going to say it's a niche within a niche, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's like two different niches that have a little bit of a Venn diagram overlap, right? Because there's people who like to dress up, who like to be their own costume designers, who like to be their own production designers. And you create a story and a narrative and do all of these amazing things to put on a show.

And I guess you could be part of a drag community and not... Or be a drag queen and not be part of theater and vice versa. But then there's special people, I believe, like yourself, who are that perfect merge of the two that's been responsible for so much of your success. It is a merging of...

[12:01] Jackie Cox: And I mean, drag is so appealing because it is kind of whatever you want it to be. But then certainly you have a lot of creative control over your drag as the drag performer. You decide what number you're going to do, where it's going to be, what your costume is, everything. You probably don't usually get to decide all the lighting choices. But other than that, pretty much everything else is your decision. And that was so appealing to me. I moved to New York City in 2010 for the first time, thinking maybe I would try to do the legitimate stage. And I use that term in, I guess, the professional way. But I mean, I think all stages are legitimate. And I realized I was like, Oh, I don't know if I fit in with what Broadway was casting at the time.

And I say at the time, because I do think and hope that the definition of who should be on Broadway is expanding. And it's not just six-foot-tall, muscular men who can sing over a high A. I think we're not expanding it to just be people telling authentic stories, hopefully. But I found drag by luck. I did a production of How Do We Get An Angry Inch the year prior 2009. And I moved to New York after having that experience. I got here and I was like, Oh, I don't know if that theater world is for me. And a friend was producing a drag competition off-Broadway and was like, Come do this. And I was like, I don't even have a drag name, anything. And then it all happened. And I just found so much power in the ability to really own the stage through drag.

And drag gives both the audience and the drag performer a lot of freedom to do almost anything, to say things, to talk about things in different ways. It's why if you go to... If you've ever been to theater school, you study a lot of forms of theater that are probably not very popular, but because of the power they give you. Working with masks, working in clowning, these are things that are like classic theater kid things that you learn in weird improv games. But you learn about the power that those things bring you and the ability of what you can do either in a mask as a clown. And drag is all related to that. And it gives you so much freedom and power. And I think the biggest and most important thing that is happening now is we're really having, in addition to a conversation around race in this country, we're also having a really big conversation on gender.

What is gender? How do we express gender? How do we personally identify our own gender? And what is and isn't allowed, I think is starting to be really expanded. Drag was illegal in most parts of this country for most of the history of this country. The Stonewall Riots, the police would bust gay bars because there were people wearing the wrong gender clothing here in New York City. And that was an excuse to arrest people. So these are things that have changed so much in just 50 years. And drag is still on the forefront of that. We have representation of folks in this community who are not just cisgender gay men, but all the entire gender spectrum. And I think it's important to realize that drag is for everyone.

And so that is something hugely important that I'm honored to carry on in my drag and also be a welcoming space for those of all genders to participate in or enjoy drag. It's for everyone. And that was part of the big appeal to me. I did look it up, by the way, while we were talking. The Lion King number? The Lion King. In September 2014, it became the top earning title in box office history for both stage productions and films. And as of 2017, this is old, the Lion King musicals grossed $8.1 billion. So that's just ticket sales. I guess I should clarify. So it's the number one grossing thing for ticket sales. Plus merchandise and music and everything else. I'm sure in general, it's made a lot more money, but $8.1 billion.

Isn't that crazy? Wow. And that was in 2017. So now we're in 2021. I know they were closed for a year, but I'm sure they've made more since then. I'm sure they've got some cash reserves. They're okay.

[16:37] Jackie Cox: Well, what you were saying about the gender. Okay, so gender identity is not sexual preference, right? It's two very different things. Not sexual orientation at all. You can be attracted to, honestly, anyone. You can be attracted to whoever you're attracted to, and that has nothing to do with who you are, right? I think it's important that we start understanding the difference of those two things and the intersections of those two things. Not all trans women are attracted to men. Obviously, not all cisgender men are attracted to women, right? These are things that people, I think, made assumptions about different times in history. You can be attracted to any gender. You can also be any gender.

Well, so then going by the traditional sense of, I guess, the standard definition of drag means a man dressing up in women's clothing, right? But obviously, that's evolved. Totally evolved. That's very much evolved recently. And I think I love the conversations that Peppermint helped to facilitate when Peppermint was the first openly trans woman to be a contestant on RuPaul's Drag Race alone. But she was also the first, I believe, trans woman to originate a principal role on Broadway. She had over heels. Yes. Right. Who also played a non-binary character. So her personal journey was different, yet separate, but you're still related to the character's journey of being the non-binary oracle, which I think was just great in and of itself.

But has there been a growing... I guess, what's the conversation been around the trans community and how they view the drag community? Well, the thing is, regardless of... I think you're right in that I think the public perception of what drag was, was a man dressed in women's clothing. However, trans women have always been part of the drag community. Drag sometimes helps some trans women discover that they're trans. Certainly not all. But drag is sometimes a way for a trans woman to play and discover and learn about herself. But we have to remember, too, that drag is performance. I think that's the real difference between drag and gender identity is drag is still performance at the end of the day.

And whether your performance... All actors find ways to include part of their truth in their performance. But just because I perform as Jackie Cox doesn't mean that all elements of her, which is my creation, are entirely fake, or they're not all entirely part of me. And sometimes the line is blurred a little. But trans women have always been part of the drag community. And that is certainly a huge part of not just the drag community, but trans women were also at the forefront of gay rights, as some of the most visible members of our community. And of course, sadly, that also means they have been in the past targets of the most violence. So we owe so much debt to our trans siblings, and certainly the trans women who really were the pioneers in the gay rights movement.

So Peppermint being on the show was so incredible. Knowing Peppermint was able to translate the success on a reality television show to being on Broadway is something that like, hello. I mean, I remember when I first moved to New York City, before I even did drag, I think one of the first drag queens I saw was Peppermint. And seeing her perform her songs was so incredible. It's obviously inspiring to me. She's been such a huge pillar of this community. Also, just a lovely person. I was lucky enough to do the We Will Be Back demonstration in Times Square with her. I'm honored to say that I consider her a sister and just continue to be so proud of her. And what's great about Peppermint is she brings visibility to just a truth that's always been there, which is that trans women of color have always been part of the drag community.

And she brings light to the fact that drag, the queer community, the trans community, the non-legitimate theater community are just right outside the steps of Broadway. And it is, I think to us, still one community. We may not have the unions and the producers and all the backing, but I know so many people who have lived between both worlds, the off-Broadway, the cabaret, the burlesque. It's all one big theatrical pool that happens, honestly, within a span of 20 blocks in New York City. And it feeds off of each other. We think about shows like Kinky Boots, Harvey Fierstein. These are creators who know both sides, who know both sides of this community. And I hate to even say this, underground, because I don't think it is underground anymore.

But it was underground for so long, actually, and see how that influences pieces of legitimate theater. So I'm excited to see what happens next, especially... One of the interesting things about this year, it's been devastating for so many of my friends who've been in these union shows, in these big union houses, because there has been no union work. However, for those of us in the drag nightlife community, I mean, drag queens are like cockroaches. We will survive any pandemic. I mean, all a drag queen needs is literally a box to stand on and someone holding a light because we will make a show happen no matter what. Even if everyone in the audience is wearing hazmat suits, we'll make a show happen.

So I think it's been interesting because I've been able to still work a little bit. And I think we found ways to do things virtually, digitally. I mean, drag is one of those art forms that can work almost in any space. So I hope knowing that we've been holding this torch of live performance this past year, and not just in performing, but something that was really important to me was in addition to my podcast, I did a YouTube show that ran for... I think we did 30 episodes to celebrate Broadway performers as well, which you can check out at broadwaytalklive.com. But that was really because so many of my friends from this community, the theatrical community, were out of work, and I wanted some way to celebrate them.

Or if they were doing other virtual projects to help amplify those projects. Or some people were starting wine businesses, candle making businesses. I'm here to help this community in any way I can. And so I certainly want the future to kind of touch on that part. The future, I want us to move forward together. I want us to remember where we come from as we move into a more inclusive future for the theatrical community, to really remember those folks who have always been there and always part of it, and maybe not celebrated as much. So I don't want to try to speak for anybody else, obviously. I think I'm going to ask you to speak for yourself.

[24:03] Jackie Cox: What it is about performing in drag that is so attractive because you said something a little while ago that said that true drag is performance. It's not trying to, I guess, be a woman. It's performing, right? So there are people who legitimately are, they don't want to perform, they are just anatomically born with male parts and want to be more identify with female parts. Hold on, hold on, parts are a separate conversation. So I think the question of parts is something for each person to disclose or not disclose or discuss or not discuss on their own merit and benefit. I love I'm glad you brought it up only because I think parts are the most personal and least important from a general discourse or conversation of this topic.

So whenever you meet a trans person, the last thing you should question or think about are parts. It should really be about what is their gender identity and gender identity can be about anatomy and those things, but is not, it's certainly not in a way you relate to the outside world, right? You don't ask someone who's cisgender what their parts are. You wouldn't ask someone who's transgender what their parts are. It's not right. That's not gender identity, right? I think so, you know, for those for the listeners out there, and it's I think we use the terms assigned male at birth, assigned female at birth, and then the reasons they were assigned or not assigned often obviously do have to do with the anatomy they were born with.

However, not always and honestly, none of our business, right? All you need to know is they were assigned male at birth and now they are a trans woman or they are trans, you know, or they're non-binary, right? And so I think the question of what parts they had or have or will have in the future are not for us. So that's just so I wanted to pause there before we went further on that conversation, but gender identity is about who you are, not about anything else.

[26:15] Alan Seales: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah for correcting me. So where what my question I guess is that as somebody who's looking to get into drag, I guess I sort of see two paths or I guess two reasons behind it. One would be it's just so far away from who I personally identify with that it is so much fun to perform as somebody that's completely not myself and it's an over-the-top, it's a way that as you were saying a while ago to say things in a different way or to be a character and do things and talk about things in a way you wouldn't normally do it, right? But then there's also the other side that I would guess is the more serious side, which is I want to see what it feels like to be to dress as a woman or to be a woman and this is my chance to do it in a safe environment.

[27:25] Jackie Cox: Sure, it can be, it doesn't have to be, you know, it can be those things for you if those are the things that you want to explore in drag. The big difference I think Peppermint says this well, she's like drag is what I do, being a trans woman is who I am. Peppermint says that I am not a trans woman. So I think it's important to understand just those two things and why you do drag could be for any number of reasons. Some queens just love the way they look in drag and they don't even like performing, they just want to show up at the club in an amazing look and have everyone look at them and that is why they do drag. I like to do drag because I like to express a lot with my drag. You know, I like to say things and talk about things and, you know, make people laugh and make people smile, make people think, and I think drag is a way that I can do that.

But the reasons are different for everyone and if you have the inkling to do drag, just do it. And maybe you can't even articulate why it's appealing to you in that moment, but just do it anyway and see what you feel, see if it unlocks something in you, in your performance, in the way you see yourself, in any, it can be anything, just like any character, right? I think we think about, you know, you read a lot of interviews with actors and they're like, oh yeah, this character, getting into this character was something of a journey for me and the journey is always really fun, you know? So I think for me it's been a 10-year journey as Jackie Cox and I've learned so much about her and about myself, where the two of us intersect, where we're different.

You know, and I'm here at this interview as Jackie Cox, but of course, you know, what we're talking about, the real, this is not a performance, this podcast. So, right, you know, when you see me on stage, it is a performance and the lines of where I end and Jackie begins are kind of constantly blurred and that's okay for me. And it's kind of just for me to know and for the audience to find out.

[29:13] Alan Seales: We're going to take a short break, stay tuned for more of the episode.

[29:28] Jackie Cox: A drag queen is a drag queen created or born. What's the correct terminology? Oh, I mean, I think it's whatever you want. I would say no one's, I haven't heard anyone making really big claims to either. I mean, I alternate between the two, you know, in my mind I created Jackie Cox, but then, and also in my mind she was born the first day I performed as her. But I guess I could, I guess I'd kind of been creating her since college, right? Because she, so for those who don't know my origin story, Jackie Cox, the name was actually something my best friend Blake and I made up in college as we were in theater school. And she was this kind of character we created who is this like musical theater diva who thought she was like the main attraction of the world, but she was kind of a little clueless.

So she was a bit of a clueless character. There's always a bit of that in Jackie Cox me now is that, you know, she thinks she's like going to be going on, you know, to play Christine in Phantom and really she's playing Meg, you know, or she's not even Meg at this point. I'm old. So she's like Madame Jerry, you know, she's like, she's not really there. But you know, I think that was something really fun for me to explore is that kind of, um, a little bit of that, you know, drag is a little, it's larger than life and certainly most drag queens I know, and I don't mean this as an insult, we're all a little delusional about how big of stars we are. You know, we're all a little bit like, oh yeah, I'm the main, you know, the main attraction and it's like, yeah, you're in a gay bar of 20 people.

Of course, you're the main attraction. But we can't take it all, we can't take it seriously and I think some drag queens take their drag very seriously all the time and there's certainly elements of my drag that I take very seriously, but then I always have to like step back and be like, okay, well what I do is still, you know, slightly ridiculous. I'm wearing very ridiculous clothing, my hair is like twice the size of my head. Like these are all things that are just, it's definitely an exaggerated art form and I think we have to remember to take the piss out of it a little bit sometimes. We can certainly talk about serious things and you can use drag, which is a, some would say a frivolous art form to talk about serious topics.

That's possible, right? You can definitely do that with drag. You don't have to, and I think regardless of whether you do or not is to remember at the end of the day to not take it maybe as seriously as you would think.

[31:47] Alan Seales: I can see that. I can very much see that. But going back even further, like what got you into theater? What was attracting you to just performing in general?

[31:57] Jackie Cox: It's a great question. Yeah, I'd love to know the psychology of why we do this, right? No, I mean, I love to tell stories, I love to make people smile, I love to make people think. I love sharing truth through theater, you know, I think that's something we all strive for, right? Regardless of whether it's a comedy or a drama or drag performance or a quote legitimate performance, we're all striving to uncover some truth of the human experience and share it. I think that's what all art does, but certainly for me that's, I found my ability to express those truths was with my voice and the ability to bring truth to character, bring truth to the stage was something that I realized at a young age.

I think I've talked about this before, but one of my first kind of memories of theater was in elementary school. We did this like play at Halloween time about like a sad ghost who was sad because no one could see him until he had a sheet over him himself because he was a ghost. And I remember we had to like audition for it and like the teacher said, like I believed you were that sad. I don't know, this is about me. I was an only child. I kind of did have a lonely childhood experience, but I was like, oh, okay. This is interesting. Like I can actually bring some truth to whatever it is I do and that was appealing to me to be able to share myself in that way. I did kind of have a lonely childhood and so, you know, to connect with other people through performing was probably a big appeal for me.

[33:38] Alan Seales: That explains a little bit. I think of the Star Trek love and the nerddom.

[33:45] Jackie Cox: Oh yeah, I was by myself a lot.

[33:50] Alan Seales: Yeah. Oh, that's so cute. Um, it's very cool to me how people kind of fall into this path of getting into theater. And you moved to New York thinking you were going to do legit, you know, traditional theater as sure. And at what point, I guess, you know, Jackie Cox was created as sort of, you know, by your friend, but then at what point were you like, oh, this is something that I could really do. This is something I can continue with without going towards the traditional path. I'll put in air quotes of making it on Broadway.

[34:27] Jackie Cox: You know, I actually decided pretty quickly when I got here. I went to a couple open calls and I was like, this is hell. Like what is this? You're, it's like 5:00 a.m. You're trying to get it. You're not in the unions. You're just like hoping that someone will see you. I was like, this is not it. I was like, I don't think I can do this. I, you know, I just, I discovered pretty quickly that theater wasn't for me. And so I actually started pursuing a totally separate career in corporate retail, which is like a career I held. I mean, but the thing is, so I pursued that career, which I was really good at, but certainly was not something I was super passionate about. And I kind of discovered drag after I'd already made that decision.

So I already made that decision and then I was like, oh, now I'm depressed because all I do is like sell people clothes they don't need. So I found drag and then I realized, oh, okay, here's what's cool about drag is it happens whenever you want and usually it happens outside of the hours of nine to five, right? Drag is almost always nighttime. I found a way to make a whole side career. So drag was my side career, right? I was been doing it for 10 years and I built up a career for myself doing off-Broadway theater, doing these little things on TV shows or whatever, but I still had this whole other like corporate retail career. Most people in my corporate job had no idea that I did drag. I kept it all very separate, very Hannah Montana. And then I decided to audition for RuPaul's Drag Race. It was my first time auditioning. I got on the show and I put in my two-week.

[36:03] Jackie Cox: Although, you know what? I'm glad I had that corporate retail career because I've sold a lot of glasses. Three thousand pairs of my glasses that you can buy at JackieCoxNYC.com and support my drag through buying my merchandise.

[36:21] Alan Seales: I was going to bring that up because you're calling in here. We're doing this interview, you were saying from your, you have a whole separate studio and your wigs are behind you and I see a little corner of a green screen and you've actually got a business center, more or less, where you do the profession of being a drag queen. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's hard to get to this point where you can make a living exclusively off of this kind of thing. We were saying at the beginning, you're starting to tour again. So you're doing touring shows and you've got merchandise for sale. Is it more about creating and then maintaining a brand? And I guess then the corporate retail training goes along with that than if that's the case.

[37:08] Jackie Cox: It's all of the things. I think for the listeners who are like, what does Jackie even love? I love making people smile. And so I think I do that in all of my content I create. And I certainly stand behind all of the merchandise I sell. But not all the content we make actually makes us money. So one of the things that I poured my heart and soul into this last couple months was I decided I really loved the character of Agatha on WandaVision. And I decided I was going to do a whole Instagram series of looks inspired by her and inspired by Katherine Hahn. And I had this gorgeous, gorgeous costume based on the original Agatha Harkness comic book character created. All of this stuff. I did that all out of my own pocket.

And I did put all the content online for free. And I did it because it was something that made me smile. But I'm always like, if you like that content that I'm just giving you for free, remember, I also have merchandise and ways you can pay me. So I think it's the economy of being a drag queen. I'm still trying to figure out in this new part of my life. But I do like to remind the kids, if you enjoy my free content, please also support my content that maybe is paid for by other companies.

[38:20] Jackie Cox: Look, I'm not saying you have to love everything I post. I'm not saying you have to buy all the products that I'm selling. But you know what you can do? It costs you nothing. Just hit like, hit the like button. It's so easy. And it honestly helps us pay our rent. And I think that's something that... I wish I could actually explain the economy of this to the folks watching who are like, why is Jackie selling this, that, and the other thing on her Instagram? And I'm like, because if you love all of the free drag content I give you, someone has to pay the bill.

[39:02] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, people don't get that. And speaking of, I'm not sure who the sponsors are of this podcast. If there are any, support them. Just click on the website. Even if you don't purchase, just click and read about whatever the product is. I don't know what the sponsors are, but support them.

[39:13] Jackie Cox: It changes all the time.

[39:14] Alan Seales: Right?

[39:15] Jackie Cox: Yeah. Well, thank you for that. It costs you nothing. Here's the thing is, I wish people understood that too, is that it costs you nothing to support a performer you love in the way that they're making money. All you have to do is click. It's so easy.

[39:31] Jackie Cox: You know what I wish? Along those lines, if I'm being honest, I wish that more people would comment on Instagram posts. I just want to see that people are there. It puts a smile on my face to see, to get people engaged and to get comments of like, oh, that was really eye-opening or, or, hey, stupid. That was a dumb question. But at least I know they're paying attention. Right? So I want to, I want to know. I want, yes. Just like, share with your friends, all of this stuff. It's completely free. It's completely easy. And yeah, for those listening, it does help. It helps a lot for us to, for all of us artists to keep going.

[40:07] Jackie Cox: Social media exists, right? It's not going away. And it's how everyone who potentially has a check to give us, right? You want us to make money, whether or not you're paying us or not. You want the podcasters and the drag queens that you love to make money. And the way they make money is companies look at our numbers. They look to see how many people are commenting, how many people are engaging with our content. And that's literally how they decide how much to pay us. And it's that simple. It's like, I wish I could sometimes because the kids are like, what's happening? I'm like, just comment. Just like it. Just share it. Just do it. It's easy.

[40:44] Jackie Cox: Just repost on your feed. Do it, have a like, reshare it, whatever you need. It's so, so, so easy. I love that. Do you have a favorite episode from It Do Take Nerd?

[40:57] Jackie Cox: I do think my favorite one was the episode with Jada Essence Hall and Anthony Rapp. Because first of all, I love Jada. Jada was the winner of my season of RuPaul's Drag Race. Jada talks a mile a minute. And Jada had posted on her Twitter, she was like, I'm thinking about getting into Star Trek. And I was like, girl, call me. I literally sent her a list of episodes to watch and then she started getting really into it. And then separately, she posted that Rent the Movie was one of her favorite movies. I love Rent the Musical. I'll be honest, I don't love Rent the Movie. But I love the musical. And of course, we love Anthony Rapp. And he's on as one of the first main openly gay characters on a Star Trek series along with Wilson Cruz.

And I was like, this is going to be fun. So I literally brought Jada on and I surprised her with Anthony Rapp. And it was just so cute to watch the two of them kiki. And I think it's so funny because I think the perception of Jada is that she is like this fierce, black excellence, diva, drag queen, gorgeous, most popular girl in school is probably what I would imagine her as. But then to also know she has this nerdy side that loves Star Trek and musical theater, I loved exposing her.

[42:24] Alan Seales: That's what I love. That's what I love about your podcast. It was a lot of fun. It's just exposing these sides of people that in a very fun way that people don't know is there. And it's, yeah, it's so much fun. And I love that Anthony Rapp loves drag queens, right? Like that's not something you associate him with.

[42:40] Jackie Cox: Yeah, I think it's lovely. It's absolutely lovely. He's honestly the sweetest and is probably one of the best at engaging with his kind of nerd fandom as well. Like he plays Dungeons and Dragons. He's amazing. He's like, I think I called him this on the episode, but I would stand by the statement. I think he's the king of the nerds. Anthony Rapp may be the king of the nerds.

[43:02] Alan Seales: What about Wil Wheaton though?

[43:04] Jackie Cox: Well Wil Wheaton would be the king. And I certainly, so I'm a couple of years younger than Wil Wheaton. And when Next Generation was airing on TV, I had the biggest crush on Wil Wheaton. But Wil Wheaton isn't gay. So he loses a point for me on that. And he's not the star of Broadway musicals. So he loses a point from there. So in my book, Anthony Rapp wins because he's gay and an amazingly talented musical theater actor.

[43:29] Alan Seales: All right, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. So let's wrap up here with the three standard closing questions that I ask everybody. The first one, very simple. What motivates you?

[43:39] Jackie Cox: What motivates me the most is the feeling of joy that I can bring to my audience. If I can bring some joy to them, and that's what brings me joy.

[43:58] Alan Seales: Next question then, what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[44:06] Jackie Cox: I would say take more risks. Take as many calculated risks as you can. Try as many things as you can. I've found so much success just by trying. I waited till I was 34 years old to audition for RuPaul's Drag Race. And I probably could have auditioned 10 years earlier. So I took that risk and it paid off. And take risks, especially when there's risks you have nothing to lose. I didn't lose anything by auditioning for RuPaul's Drag Race. And no one does. So whatever that thing is for you, take those risks.

[44:40] Alan Seales: Awesome. Okay, last question. If you can only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[44:48] Jackie Cox: It's a great question. When I was a kid, I watched West Side Story, the movie over and over again. I loved it so much. I think looking back on that movie, knowing that we did not cast people who probably should have been playing those roles, does color it and taint it a little bit for me. And I'm excited for the new movie version of West Side Story. I'm excited for more actual representation. The show that I saw recently that I only saw once, but I want to see it again because it really... This show gave me that feeling that I hope to give people, which is that feeling of joy and the belief in the human spirit. I loved Come From Away. And I remember leaping to my feet at the end because I felt so much joy in the human spirit.

I don't know if I want to watch it over and over again, but that was the show that I saw recently. I guess it was a couple of years ago now. But I saw it and I was just leapt to my feet at the belief in the human spirit, the idea of community, people coming from all over the world and celebrating humanity, I thought was really beautiful. So I don't have a good answer for you, but those two shows are what popped into my head.

[46:02] Alan Seales: No, I like that a lot. And Come From Away too. I know that they very purposely wrote it and staged it like this. I think it's 80 minutes or 90 minutes, no intermission. I think it's 80, but no intermission. And once it starts, it's like you're shot out of a cannon and it just goes and goes and goes because that was the frantic nature of what was actually happening. They wanted to capture that energy and put it on stage. So I think they did a very good job. And I agree with you that at the end of it, it was done. I was like, all I know how to do right now is just stand up and clap. That's the urge I'm feeling.

[46:32] Jackie Cox: Yeah, that's how I felt.

[46:33] Alan Seales: Yeah, I agree with you. Where can we find you online and buy tickets and all of the good social media stuff?

[46:40] Jackie Cox: So I'm at Jackie Cox NYC on all social media, including TikTok for the kids. And I'll be posting on my Instagram about all of my upcoming appearances. I am finally starting to tour. We are ready for hot vax summer. We're still staying as socially distant as we can still masking up where we need to. But yes, I will be out visiting a town near you hopefully very soon. So just check out my Instagram for the latest on that.

[47:05] Alan Seales: Absolutely wonderful. You can get more of me at thetheaterpodcast.com. Show your support just by liking, clicking, sharing, you know, talking about earlier. It's so free, free, so free. I'm on Instagram and Twitter theater underscore podcast. Please leave a rating and a review wherever you're listening. This has been edited by Well-Rounded Hoodlum Productions. Thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music. And Jackie, thank you so much. This is I mean, I normally wrap it up by saying like, oh, this is great conversation, great conversation. But like, I legit got an education in this in this conversation.

[47:37] Jackie Cox: I'm glad I had a lot of fun with you too. Thank you.

[47:43] Jackie Cox: I really appreciate it. You are a wonderful person. And I hope that when all this pandemic shit is over that we can see each other live and in person.

[47:49] Jackie Cox: It's going to happen. It's going to, it's all happening. It's happening.

[48:00] Jackie Cox: Deep breath, make the world a little colorful.