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[0:00] Alan Seales: Hey, everyone. Welcome to The Theatre Podcast. Intimate personal conversations with the industry's biggest names. I'm Alan Seales, and our guest today is David Morse, who has such an incredible TV, film, and stage acting career. He's a director, he's a producer. I mean, you probably know him best from "The Green Mile," "St. Elsewhere," and just this slew of other things, but he just reprised his off-Broadway role alongside Mary Louise Parker. Now, as they bring "How I Learned to Drive" to Broadway, the play is making its Broadway debut. Paula Vogel got a Pulitzer Prize for the script originally, like, over two decades ago, 23 years ago. 23-year gap between off-Broadway production and this Broadway production, and the two of them are reprising their roles.

It still works. It's incredible. You have to go see their performances. It's just a masterclass. He has so much of a past, David does, that allows him to bring these rich characters to life, and there's a humanity to everything that he brings, even though, or all the characters he inhabits, even though some of the people he plays are, like, bad guys, or just stereotypically sort of just really evil people. And I actually sort of find it ironic, we get into this a little bit, that he vowed early in his career to never do TV. He actually didn't like TV, and now some of the most major things that have catapulted his career have come out of TV through a series of happenstance that he tells better than I can.

So, as always, find me online on Instagram and Twitter. Leave a rating and a review. Don't forget to follow me on TikTok. I have no idea what I'm doing there, but I'm on TikTok now. And please enjoy this episode with David Morse.

[1:52] Alan Seales: Today's guest is a TV film and stage actor, director, and a producer. Some of my favorite credits of his include "The Green Mile," "St. Elsewhere," "12 Monkeys," "Contact," and "The Hurt Locker." He's received two Emmy nominations for his roles on "House" and the HBO miniseries "John Adams." He has also received acclaim for his portrayal of Uncle Peck in the off-Broadway play "How I Learned to Drive," earning him a Drama Desk Award, Obie Award, and additional Broadway credits include "The Iceman Cometh," and "The Seafarer," and "On the Waterfront." He can now be seen on Netflix in their comedy-drama series "The Chair," and back on Broadway now with the Broadway debut of "How I Learned to Drive," reprising his award-winning role. David Morse, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[2:45] David Morse: Yeah, I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[2:49] Alan Seales: Of course. And I love that there is this 23-year journey for this play, because it premiered off-Broadway 23 years ago. And playwright Paula Vogel, of course, won a Pulitzer for it. And you were part of the original cast back then, along with current cast members Mary Louise Parker and Joanna Day, which was the adult Greek chorus. So, I guess, how long ago did you know that this play was going to make a Broadway debut so many decades later?

[3:28] David Morse: Well, let me add a couple of years on to what you were saying. Before the COVID shutdown, we were rehearsing in March, and that was actually the 23 years then. Now it's 25 years. I don't want to make this sound even longer, but that's a quarter of a century. So, we have been trying to do this. Really, we never expected it would take 25 years. Mark and Mary Louise, the director, originally came to me 10 years after we did it and asked how I felt about doing the 10-year reunion and doing it on Broadway. And I had not done another play in 10 years. And I'd done a lot of theater early in my life, but I hadn't done a play in 10 years. And I just didn't feel like I could do this one. I needed to do something else before I did this. And they said, okay. Thinking, okay, it wouldn't be long before we could do this. And here we are 25 years later, and we're finally on Broadway.

[4:33] Alan Seales: So it was always the plan, I guess. You said, what, 10 years? There was a 10-year reunion you were talking about. That didn't happen. And so, was it always the plan to bring this back after the 10 years, and it just now got around to it? I mean, I know the business from the production side is always incredibly hard just in terms of getting funding and finding the right theater. Of course, you have to have a theater and then et cetera. So was, I guess, the journey to bring it to Broadway now, pandemic aside, right? There's also the question we'll get to of, oh, pandemic shuts it down. Do we even continue? Because some things didn't even come back after the pandemic. But before pandemic, that wasn't even part of the equation yet. How far back did you and the team start planning this?

[5:19] David Morse: We wanted to do it. I mean, as soon as I did, I did "Seafarer." That was the first play I did. Once I did that, which was great, I got to be on Broadway, and it was an amazing production with those wonderful Irish actors. And I was like, okay, I'm ready. And let's figure out how to do this. But Mary Louise was doing "Weeds," I think, and there was no time for her to do it. And then I wound up on a series. And our schedules weren't working because we were both working all the time. And Daryl Roth, who originally took this from the Vineyard Theater and produced it off-Broadway, she has been devoted to this forever, from the beginning. And she has always wanted to see it done. And she kept coming to us and saying, are you ready?

Can you do it? Do your schedules work out? Our schedules worked out, we're going to have an opening, and then she went to go get a theater on Broadway, and she couldn't get an open theater. There just wasn't any theaters anywhere. And when one wound up opening up, and again, Mary Louise was doing something, or I was doing something, and we almost came together about four years ago. And the same thing happened. Daryl thought she had a theater for us. And one of us, I don't know who it was, couldn't, you know, the schedule just didn't work. And then when it finally did work, and we were in rehearsal, COVID shut us down. So it just feels amazing that we are finally here together.

[6:47] Alan Seales: Well, it's interesting. I want to come back to this. We're definitely gonna come back to "How I Learned to Drive," because the story you were just telling about you and Mary Louise, of course, you've always got something going on. And your TV and your film resume is five miles long, and you're just a successful working actor. It seems like your entire life. But I want to back up to the very beginning. And I was reading, I know you, did you grow up in Boston? Or where did you originally grow up?

[7:17] David Morse: Well, I grew up north of Boston. I grew up in the Cape Ann area. Hamilton is where I went to high school. And I just lived theater in high school. We had an amazing woman who was the president of the Massachusetts Drama Society. And she took it seriously. And she inspired all of us. So that's what I lived for in high school. And in my senior year, there was a fellow who had had a nervous breakdown at his graduation from Boston University. He had come from our high school, and he was a legend at school. I never met him. But he was the guy, the actor that I'd always heard about. And Mrs. Farini suggested to him when he came home to recuperate, that maybe he directs something at the high school.

So he directed a production of "Zoo Story" with me and another fellow who kept getting all the roles that I was not allowed to take because my grades were so bad, and they had to take me out of these productions. And he wound up doing the roles. But anyway, we did "Zoo Story" together. And it was pretty successful for a high school thing. And George, who directed it, was part of a company that was forming the Boston Repertory Theater in Boston. And I hadn't even graduated yet. And he suggested that I go into Boston and audition for the company. So I skipped school one day, and I went into this apartment near Symphony Hall somewhere on Mass Pike. And there were all these older people, people who had actually graduated from college in there.

And I went into the room with the artistic director and auditioned. And when we came out, he told everybody there that I was the newest member of their company. I did six years of Repertory Theater with the Boston Rep before I came to New York.

[9:17] Alan Seales: That's crazy. Okay, so then in high school, of course, you're already in drama in high school. And then, of course, this teacher helped you really take it seriously. But before that, I mean, was theater just something fun to do? Or did you have a moment before that where you're like, oh, I saw this show. Now I know I have to do this?

[9:36] David Morse: You know, I never knew that it was something, you know, and so many people say this, you know, when you come from parts of the world that have no connection to New York or Los Angeles, it's not something you really understand. It's something you can do for real. But because of who I was, and what was going on in my life, when I, the first experience I had outside of just playing, you know, pretending as a kid, the actual reading of a play, which actually happened in eighth grade, it was the play "Unborrowed Time," where I got to play all these different characters in the classroom. I immediately, it was so clear. I didn't even think about it. I felt so much more me being these other people than I was being myself. And the same thing was in high school. I just felt more alive and more myself living these other people's world and reality than living in my own reality. And in some ways, that's not changed. That really has been my life.

[10:53] Alan Seales: I feel like there's, that's a lot of similarities with people who have really stuck with it their entire lives and made careers out of this, at various levels of success, is that they're using the stories of other people because they, for whatever reason, they're not comfortable in their own skin, or they're not comfortable in their own sort of lifestyle. And it's always interesting to me to hear another one of these stories. Because even though it's, everyone on the surface says it's something almost identical, I just felt at home playing other people. The root cause, the reasoning behind all this, is so wildly different for every single person. And you had touched on, you just mentioned something in passing a second ago, that your grades were not good.

So you were pulled out of larger roles, I guess. But in school, in high school and whatnot, in terms of the academics, was theater just something that you fell into, you fell in love with, because you didn't have to try, it just became part, it was part of who you are?

[12:01] David Morse: Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of people will talk about this in the same way. Because of what was going on in my family, and the need to sort of escape from, you know, the life that I had grown up in. It was a place for me to go. I did not think much of myself. And I grew up with a father, especially, you know, like a lot of fathers and a lot of sons, especially, will say, I was not what he wanted me to be. It was, you know, it was not happy. And I wound up having a breakdown, also, and went through a lot and was treated for depression and everything. So the place I really found where I just could feel whole in a way, and feel good about myself was there, on the stage, and being these characters.

And thank God I found it, it gave me something, it got me through high school, because certainly academics did not get me through it. I never even took PSATs, I was not going to go to college, and you know, I never did any of that stuff. I would have been working in a newspaper press, you know, at the time, I was taking newspapers off the press, at night, to make some money.

[13:40] Alan Seales: Well, that's such a wonderful story, that you find your chosen family. I use the term chosen family all the time for theater, and then these casts, and some people use, you know, tribe. They found their tribe, whatever that means to you. And what I find interesting, though, about your history is, you said, you got into theater, it was stage performing, yet I'm looking at your resume, and it's just TV and film, TV and film, and just miles long.

[14:13] Alan Seales: And you've written and directed and produced, and you've hit all aspects of this. And at what point, then, did your path sort of go that TV film direction versus stage? Because I feel like if you start on the stage, it will never leave you. But you've done a lot of TV and film.

[14:34] David Morse: Yeah. Well, I didn't have a TV for when I was doing theatre. I didn't have a TV for 10 years. I didn't watch TV. I didn't see anything. But I sure had an opinion about TV, that's for sure. I was sure I would never do TV in my life. I just thought it was the downfall of Western civilization. And at the time, there wasn't a lot. I had friends who would talk about it. They had some TVs. They would talk about the Mary Tyler Moore show or Saturday Night Live or something like that at the time when it started out. And the 70s, early 70s. But I swore I would never do it. And I didn't even really think about movies. I thought maybe that would be in my life at some point. But it's not like I pursued it.

I was doing theatre. And my heroes were all the people on the English stage. I read all the books about Olivia and Gilgud and Ralph Richardson and all of them. That's what I wanted. And doing repertory theatre, doing four different plays a week and being all these different characters, trying to be as different from one night to another. That's what I loved.

[15:46] David Morse: And then when I went to someone who, an actress named Mary Joy, she had gone to New York from Boston. And she studied with a man named William Esper. And she came to me about six years into my time at Boston Rep. And she said, it's time for you to leave Boston and you have to study with this man. You have to come to New York and you have to study with this man. I said, okay. Well, it felt like it was time to leave because of what was going on in the theatre. So I went down and I had an interview with Bill at the neighborhood playhouse where he was still teaching. And he said, I'd like to take you, but you have to stop acting for two years and just study with me. And I was like, holy crow, I've only acted.

I mean, that's what I've been doing. And he's like, no, you got to stop. You got to stop and study. I said, okay, now I got to go wait on tables or something, which I did. And it was maybe the best two years of my life, not only creatively as a creative person, but emotionally and spiritually, I think too, of being with Bill. Because he really changed the direction of the quality and kind of work I was doing. Wow.

[17:06] David Morse: So I think that the studying is so important. I've heard so many people talk about this forever, is that even when you're on Broadway, right? There's so many people that think you've made it, that's it, you're done. That's the end of your journey. But yet, the people who continually work on Broadway over and over again are the ones who between shows on their eight show, arduous schedule between these press appearances, between all the other things that they're doing, they're still learning, they're still studying, they're still taking class and always improving. And so I think that's absolutely wonderful. You had this idea, or I guess the ability and the support, right? A lot of people don't even have the support to be able to have people say, listen, you need to go here because I see this potential in you. And here's how we're going to do things. And then you at that age too, don't mess around, right? It sounds like you took it very seriously.

[18:10] David Morse: Oh, completely. And when I was studying with Bill, I was watching other actors and just how degrading this business is. In terms of trying to get agents and having your picture and resume and having to go to an agency and slide it under the door. I mean, they wouldn't even talk to you. I said, forget it, I'm not going to do that. Actually, the first thing I did when I went to New York, I went and I volunteered at the public theater. And Mary Colquhoun was the casting director then at the public theater. And I went in and the volunteer person said, okay. And they took me into her office. And the first thing they had me do is they showed me a pile of pictures and resumes that went up to my waist.

And they said, we want you to file those. And it's all those people who, they're just like me. They're out there struggling just like I am to get a little bit of attention, to get a job there in New York. I said, I'm just not going to do this. So I filed all those things. And I just decided that if agents are doing their work, they'll be in the theaters and I'm just going to go find work when I finished studying with Bill. So I went to all the equity things. I wanted to do some plays and it worked out that there was a woman who came to a production and she became my agent. And she just had me go out for everything, for every director, because nobody knew who I was, every casting person that came to town.

[19:42] David Morse: And I auditioned for a movie that Christopher Walken was starring in called Dogs of War. And it was at night for some reason, I did that audition. And when I got home, Yvette called me, my agent, and said, listen, they're going to offer you the role. But Richard Donner is in town and the casting director wants you to go and see him tomorrow morning. You have to wake him up at his hotel because they're doing some screen tests tomorrow and they're going flying back to LA in the afternoon. You have to wake him up, get a script from him and go audition. So I got up in the morning and I went over to the Pierre Hotel on Fifth Avenue and went up to his room and knocked on his door and got him out of bed.

And his cranky old voice, the fantastic Richard Donner voice, he handed me a script and said, get out of here and go ahead, let me have some breakfast and get back. So I went away for an hour and read the script. It was for the lead in the movie Golden Sight Moves. I can't even believe that I'm even being considered for this. And I went away for an hour and sat in a coffee shop and read the script and I went back and the producer was there in Dick's room and his wife. And I sat at their little table and his wife, Sheila, and I read some scenes together and Dick said, okay, get in the cab with us. We got in the cab, we went across town, he screen tested me with Joan Fae and Ellen Barkin. And then they flew back to Hollywood.

That's like, wow, what an experience. Well, I wound up getting the lead in the movie along with John Savage. And so having gone from never done any TV or any movie and just doing theater, I starred in the first movie I ever did. Wow.

[21:30] Alan Seales: And side note, I have heard of Evette Bickoff's version of I Discovered David Morse.

[21:34] David Morse: Really?

[21:35] Alan Seales: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know Evette. Interesting.

[21:37] David Morse: So that's a story we can share off air. But the first movie you go out for, you get the starring role and I've heard success to emotional breakdown stories from actors in similar positions where they're like, wait, the first thing I did, I got it. I must be hot shit. I'm going to get everything else from now on. So you completely offset your own expectations.

[22:07] David Morse: Yeah. I did not expect to be a movie star. Not that I was a movie star, but starring in a movie. And there I was. And having to play a guy who is a street basketball player and he winds up playing with the Golden State Warriors. And so I had to pretend I know how to play basketball. I happened to be six foot four and that helped a little bit. So the whole thing was pretty amazing. I mean, because there were so many movie stars that want to be doing that role and I wound up doing it. And I never thought that I was hot shit. Honest to God, I didn't. And once I did the role, I just thought, let's just be real here. And I said, I'm going back to New York and I'm going to do theater. If something comes from it, great.

And I went back and I was invited to be a member of the Circle Rep. I was in the lab company. I was in the original lab company. It's Stuart White brand. And then Marshall invited me into the company. And then I couldn't get a break because I went from the inside moves. It was a wonderful movie, but the distribution company went bankrupt as soon as it came out at Christmas and the movie was pulled from the theaters because Universal took it over and they had their own movies. And not many people saw it, but I'm competing with John Travolta for roles. And never having done television and I'm totally broke and used up all the little bit of borrowed money I had. I said, okay, we'll finally have to consider TV.

And when Inside Moves came out, Joel Thurm, who was the head of casting for NBC, saw it. And after that, that year, he offered ridiculous amounts of money and my choice of whatever series I wanted and all this stuff. And I said, no, I don't want to do it. And a year later, when I was totally broke and running out of unemployment insurance, I finally said, okay, I'll consider TV. And they were like, well, all right, maybe. And we got this teeny little deal to go out to Hollywood and out of it came St. Elsewhere.

[24:37] Alan Seales: Wow. Wow. And then from there, yeah, that was, I was going to say, I think that was what put you on the map. And it seems like everybody, yeah, everybody knows at least that.

[24:49] David Morse: Yeah.

[24:52] Alan Seales: We're going to take a short break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[25:07] David Morse: I love how these chance encounters and these seemingly insignificant decisions at the time lead to literal life-changing moments. Looking back now, this was 40 years ago, right? So you're looking back on this, you're like, I didn't want to do TV. I didn't want to do this. This was the worst thing ever. And now it seems like you're earning so much acclaim and awards and accolades from these performances. And I actually think this is a wonderful segue into how I learned to drive again, because Uncle Peck, all of your roles are surprising to me. If I were to look at a character synopsis, I would not ever play them how you play them. And that's a good thing. That's a good thing. And I think that's why you're so successful.

And I'm on this side of the mic and you're on that side. But Uncle Peck, I feel sorry for the guy at the end of How I Learned to Drive. And this is some serious content. And we're talking about grooming and child molestation and some serious things that this guy wants to do. And at the end of it, the way that you play this character, I have empathy for every single person on stage, your character included, for various reasons. Because so I guess speaking to that, then, like, to me, it seems like Uncle Peck, he's just a guy who wants to be loved. And the person he loves just happens to be highly inappropriate. But when you're looking at this role, I guess, twofold parts of this question. One is, did you approach it differently now, 25 years later, versus the original Off-Broadway production?

And then, so then the other part of, why did you, did you decide or was this, you know, in the magic of Paula Vogel's writing, like, where did the humanism, the human side of this character come from?

[27:30] David Morse: Well, you just said it, the magic of Paula's writing. Really, the genius of this play is her love for this man, which allows me to fully embrace the love she has for him, and the love that he has for his niece. To me, that's what the play is. It is that love story. It's tragic as can be, and sad. But that is the key, is his utter love for her. And, you know, there's a kind of a, it's going to sound so strange and awful to say it, but there really is a purity, in a way, to his love for his niece. He's a really damn

[28:26] David Morse: And we don't get to really know all the secrets of this man, but it's clear he's really a damaged man. But he doesn't see himself that way. It's not what he believes about himself. He really, genuinely just adores this. He says he's loved her from the first day he held her in his hand. That's never changed. That's where you go.

[28:49] Mad Fientist: I just, I'm watching this and, I mean, Mary Louise Parker, I've been a fan of her work as well for forever. And the two of you on stage together, I'm, there's so much that I love about the situation because the two of you together is like this, this casting match made in heaven. But this is also you're both reviving these roles from 25 years ago. And then the magic of Paula Vogel's script in general is that both of you are able to reprise these roles and age, the age you are now versus what you were then, doesn't really make a difference. It's completely the same. To the story, it's completely the same. So I guess, yeah, going back then to the first part of the question was, did you come at this different? You were in the rest of the cast when you were staging this again now and in 2020, I guess, right? It was when things shut down. So 2020, hitting that again, was that different from originally when it premiered?

[29:58] David Morse: Well, what happened was, you know, we were all really thankful that it was finally going to happen. But once we understood it was really going to happen, we all felt like, and Mark really, really, the director, really led this. He said, basically, are we doing this just to do a play? Is it even important to tell this story anymore with everything that's going on in the world? Is it important to us as people to be telling the story? So actually in 2019, in December, before we got together to rehearse in March, we got together for a few days, the original people, and we talked about, should we really be doing this? And why are we really doing this? And we really looked at ourselves and our lives, talked about our lives, and it became way more personal, the stuff that had happened to us in the intervening years, to our families, people we loved in the world, what we're seeing. And so when we started our rehearsals, we started it from a way more personal place.

[31:09] David Morse: And, you know, honestly, I felt kind of intimidated by that first production and by those younger people who had done that work. And I wasn't sure what would happen. And I was very worried for Uncle Peck and how he would be, you know, at my age, living his life, representing him, how the world would handle him. And I still am unsure about that. You know, I worry for him in this world. But I really love him and I really understand a lot about where he comes from. And, you know, we're just going out there with our whole hearts and seeing what happens.

[31:59] Mad Fientist: Well, it really does, I guess, portray, you said the whole heart, you're going out there with your whole heart. And this whole cast is laying into this material in a complete, it's so trusting, right? You're not doing anything to the words except saying the words, but the way that you're saying the words, the script itself, again, Pulitzer Prize winning Paula Vogel, just incredible woman in and of her own right. And then you add the nuances and the now personal experiences that, you know, it's just so personal experiences that you have at this point in 2022 as we're recording you and Mary Louise Parker and the other amazing members of the cast. Yeah, I wish I could have seen if you have an old like eight millimeter VHS tape of the original production, I want to see it because I want to compare then to now.

But I enjoy so much how truthful and how authentic and just how it comes across. But for you specifically, like playing, you've played some bad guys, you play a lot of bad guys. And is it sort of easier for you in a way to play like just kind of a generic, I'm just going to go rob a bank, steal some things bad guy or like this emotionally vulnerable, this kind of thing with how I learned to drive, I feel like this would be near impossible to allow yourself to fall into without complete trust in something yourself, Paula, the script, the team, like what is it on your side?

[33:36] David Morse: Yeah. You know, we talked about Inside Moves and doing the lead in that movie. John Savage, even though it was a big, the two things about that, even though John Savage and I started it, the ensemble in that was amazing. And it really was what gave a lot of the soul to that film was this fantastic ensemble. And I've done a lot of ensembles in my life. And I, you know, I think it's the best. I just know that real full world of characters all with their lives. It's the best. You know, it's not just some characters who they're in service to the lead character and his whenever his plot point stuff and all of that, you know, the ensemble community I love. But also that character, that first character I played was way more complicated than just the leading guy who becomes a basketball player.

He was a complicated guy who hurt people. And it sort of sent that movie set a template for me and not knowing it at the time, but playing characters who really are complicated, who have more underneath than we know. And it's what's always interested me. And I've been offered roles that, you know, just sort of black and white. I almost don't know how to do them. And I have directors say to me, we want you to do it because we know what you can bring something more to it. And, you know, sometimes, you know, there isn't more to it than you know, there was, there was a very famous director who was doing a great movie. And there was a character in it. And I met him for it. I was dying to work with him.

He's an amazing director. And he asked me about playing this character. And I could tell he was interested, really interested in me doing it. And the way it was written, I said, you know, he's, he is just a bad guy. He's a bad guy. You can you can say whatever you want. You may want him to be something else. It's not there. I don't see it. He's a bad guy. And he didn't hire me for the role because he believed that there was something there that wasn't there. I didn't know how to do it. And so most of the roles I've done, I've at least been able to see that there's there are more to these people than just the bad guy.

[36:04] Mad Fientist: Is that hard for you? Is that hard for you, I guess, to say no to roles now? I'm sure like, at this point, it's a little less hard than it was probably when you know, you're starting out and broke and this is why you're you do TV after you swear you you'd never do TV. But are you are at this point now? Are you really looking for something specific in all of your characters? Are the you know, I guess is it just is it you want depth to everything you're doing? Or are you looking for for you know, it's next? You're looking for a rom com next? Are you looking for an action flick next? Or what are you looking for at this point?

[36:48] David Morse: You know, hasn't always been easy to turn things down. I actually went through a very rough period of my life where our family was going through, you know, facing bankruptcy. And it was it was a very rough time for us. We had small children. Financially, things had happened that we were taken by business people and I'd handle money badly. And you know, we just went through a rough time. And I was trying so hard to just control my life was trying to make the transition from doing TV back into movies. And it was it was a really difficult time. So I finally just had to give in and say, look, I've got children to feed. I've got to keep keep us in a house. I'm not in control of this. And there were things that I did that, you know, I had to do to feed us all.

And, you know, and as I get older and most actors when they get older, the options become less. And the roles I get just offered one bad father after another one mean cop after another. And, you know, because I've been I've done so many and they just want me to do what I had done. And none of them were as interesting as what I've done. But you don't want to work. I do want to work. And there's always that temptation to just say, OK, I'll just go work. But then when something like you mentioned Hurt Locker, you know, I wasn't in much of that. But that that that script was amazing. And it was great. And the character was really fun, you know, and it was an important movie. I just felt it. You just feel that something is important.

You know, I didn't care that he was in. Not so much. You know, Ralph Fiennes was in it. Same sort of thing with him and Guy Pearce. We all did it because it was just fantastic, that script. You knew it was special. And, you know, that's what was important. Not that it was a big role, but that it was an important role, an authentic role, a role to get excited about.

[39:03] Mad Fientist: Were you always with all the TV and all the film and everything going on it? You know, I feel like that's one world. And now in the last 10 years, it's, you know, with the ability to self tape and get across the country a lot more quickly and efficiently, it's been easier. But I were you always kind of forced to choose between the TV film world and the theater world? Because like the theater, the professional theater credits in terms of Broadway and off Broadway are pale in comparison to the TV and film credits. But you started out in theater. It seems like that's where your heart still is. In terms of authenticity, I don't think you can find a level of authenticity doing individual film and TV scenes like you can embodying a character for two and a half hours, eight times a week on stage, right?

[39:48] David Morse: Right.

[39:49] Mad Fientist: So have you always been longing to come back? Or where was the choice there? Was it just where the work was?

[39:58] David Morse: Well, after I did St. Elsewhere, you know, I hadn't done Broadway yet. And I was dying to do it. And I was dying to do, you know, like I said, get into movies. And Sean Penn had offered me a film, the first movie he wrote and directed called Indian Runner. And the producers, nobody wanted me in it. But he, for some reason, he had seen me in inside movies when he was a teenager. And apparently he wrote me a letter as a teenager to tell me how much he loved what I did in the movie. And he always remembered it. And after, you know, St. Elsewhere, I just got a message that Sean wanted to meet me for the first movie he was ever going to direct. I couldn't believe it. He was the biggest movie star in the world.

And I went up to his compound up in Malibu and we spent, you know, an afternoon together. And he really fought for me to be in that movie, fought the producers. He wanted me to do it. The producers insisted that they do this big screen test with me. And he didn't really want to do it. But he agreed to do it. He decided to use it to get his crew together and just kind of work on things. And he sent me a scene which was not in the movie. And it was this very emotional, you know, scene, emotional crying kind of scene. And I read it and I thought, why, why are you doing this? This is not the character. I don't get it. And I got really kind of mad. And I wasn't going to, I was almost going to back out of doing the, you know, the screen test and to have to do that.

And finally, thank God, my therapist in my head said, you know what? Just be brave. Go do the scene. Go do it. Whatever happens, happens. Don't, don't, you know, don't undermine yourself. So I went up there and Liam Neeson was up there and he had just, he had just done the screen test. And, you know, Robert De Niro was being talked about for the role. And I went in there and I did, I did the screen test and our producers were all there at the end of the day. They said, oh, wow, you know, he's got the role. And Sean told me afterward that he wrote the scene because he didn't think anybody else could do it. He knew the actors they wanted. He didn't think any of them could do it. And so he gave me this, this scene to do and it worked obviously. But I thought now I have, you know, a career to movies, you know, a path to movies and it wasn't happening. And we were financially.

[42:39] David Morse: And this has to do with theatre too. Lanford Wilson had a play called, I'm sorry if I'm talking too much, but I guess that's why I'm here. No, this is fascinating. I'm completely enthralled right now. Yeah. Well, Lanford had written a play. You know, I remember we had the Left Coast version of Circle Rep, and there were a lot of actors out there and we were doing readings of a bunch of plays. And I read some stuff of Lanford Wilson's. And when Redwood Curtain came along and they were going to bring it to Broadway, Marshall and Lanford asked me if I would do the lead in that. And this was my dream come true. This really is what I wanted. And the movies are great, but theatre is what I really loved.

You know, when you're young and you know the same thing, you know, you open the plays and there are the people who originated the plays, their names there. And that's really what I aspired to be, was one of those actors who had their name in the front of one of those, you know, kind of books that created that. Now I was going to get to be one of those actors and go to Broadway. But they had to go to Seattle, do a Seattle rep, and then they're going to Philadelphia and then to Broadway. And I had to wait a year before it was going to happen. So I was turning down everything. I was turning down TV and trying to get movies and we were using up our savings. And finally, our twins were born. And two weeks after our twins were born, rehearsal started in New York for Redwood Curtain.

And I was practically broke. And I had to leave my wife with three children, two newborns. And we went to Seattle and it was, it was, I loved the play. It was spectacular to be a part of this. But our family was just struggling and I had to leave the show at the end of Seattle. And Lanford was devastated. And the play wound up going to Broadway a year later. And I was asked to do the Broadway show and I couldn't do it because I couldn't afford it. And Jeff Daniels wound up doing it. And, you know, he did it on Broadway and then they did the TV movie and he did the TV movie. And it just killed me. Because theatre really is what I loved and it's really what I wanted to do. But financially, it was just too much.

That's like an overall sort of, I guess, an endemic problem. Is that the right phrase for this? Because if you don't play to, what, 85% capacity on most nights, I think that's the statistic. I can't speak right now. That's the statistic. That if you're basically not full almost every night, then you just can't survive. And I feel like for something that is supposed to be for the people, like this is art, this is creativity, this is the best of the best of this world that's supposed to inspire. But to have so many restrictions and so much business in the business of show business seems to be counterproductive and highly restrictive. So I totally understand. You got to do what you got to do at the end of the day to feed your family.

And no one has a crystal ball. Yeah, right. Yeah, it feels very unfair at times. But it is the world we're in. And the reality is, you know, if people aren't in there and watching it, it's just not going to happen. You know, it's expensive to do, and you got to have the seats filled. When I first finished studying with Bill and was out there trying to do theatre, and after Inside Moves, there was a production of Mass Appeal. I don't know if you remember that. But originally, Eric Roberts was doing that role. And they offered me the understudy for the role. And I said, forget it, I'm not going to be an understudy for this. And they, and Eric Roberts wound up not doing it, going to Broadway. But I had already removed myself from the process.

And, you know, Michael O'Keefe got the role instead. Because he had a bigger success with the movie, you know, and he was a good actor, and he deserved to do it. But, you know, if I'd done the understudy, maybe I would have done the role, you know, taken over for Eric Roberts, who knows. Life just didn't happen the way we wanted to, but other things happened instead of that. And, you know, I probably wouldn't have met my wife and our children. And, you know, you've got to be grateful for the way things turn out.

[47:33] Alan Seales: Of course, of course. And I was gonna ask, too, where Green Mile fell into all of this, timing wise, because if you're on stage, you can't leave to, I mean, unless you're like, it's very rare that you're able to leave to go for several months and go film a movie or, you know, do a season of a TV show or whatever it is.

[47:52] David Morse: Right, that's right. So what was the timing around Green Mile then?

[47:56] David Morse: Well, actually, I auditioned for, well, there's a couple of things that happened. I auditioned for, or met, I didn't have to audition, I met for The Negotiator right after I left. Mary Louise and I left at the same time. How I Learned to Drive, we'd done it for six months and it felt like that was enough. And we left and I wound up doing The Negotiator. But I'd already done The Rock, I think, at that point. I think, I'm pretty sure. And The Rock had come out of, I did a one-person play called An Almost Holy Picture, and I did that at La Jolla. And it was a beautiful, spectacularly beautiful play. And the hardest thing I'd ever done was one-person play. And while I was doing that, I went up and auditioned for The Rock with Michael Bay and I wound up getting The Rock.

So it was like this series of movies that happened, The Rock, The Negotiator, another movie with Michael Apted directed, Extreme Measures. And things were starting to, there was a ball rolling. And I had done an HBO series called Two-Pistoned Tales that Dick Donner, who directed Inside Moves, was doing. And Frank Darabont, who wrote Shawshank and Green Mile, he wrote this episode. And he and I got to know each other in that. So after these other movies, I got a call one day, it was Frank Darabont. And he said, listen, I'm sending you a script. And I was the first one he was sending the script to. And he said, there's a role called Brutal Brutus, and I'm interested in you doing it, but I need to be sure that you are not an actor who wants to improvise.

It's like, okay, what am I going to say? Yes, I like to improvise. Yeah. And he said, no, no, no, no, no, of course not. No, I'd love to read your script. And I read it. And again, it's one of those things. It was just beautiful to its soul. And that original Stephen King series of novel, little novelettes, novellas, whatever they're called. Again, heart, soul, beauty, love, all those things were in there. And they were all in Frank's script. And I was the first one cast. And then I saw all these other incredible actors come on board. And it was one of those things that because of what that script was, everybody in Hollywood wanted to be a part of. And they hadn't found Michael Clark Duncan yet.

And I was seeing all these six foot nine basketball players from the Lakers, whatever in there, were all saying hi. They had seen Inside Moves, the basketball movie. It was fun to see them all and meet them all. And then we found out that this guy who had barely acted, who was digging ditches for the gas company in Chicago a few years before was going to be doing the role. And we got together for that first reading. And there's these incredible actors, Sam Rockwell, Tom and Patricia Clarkson. I mean, amazing, every one of them, Michael Jeter. And there was Michael Clark Duncan in the midst of all of us with that amazing presence. And that movie...

[51:39] Alan Seales: He's a huge guy.

[51:40] David Morse: Yeah. And the movie, to this day, it plays all over the world. And people watch it over and over and over again. I hear about it all the time. And for good reason. It's a great movie.

[52:00] Alan Seales: Yeah. Michael Clark Duncan's another one of those actors who could... When you look at him, you don't expect that level of authenticity and depth to come out. And I watched... The Island is one of my other favorite movies from when I was younger. And to see him in The Island, too, just his character, too, just over and over again, just that whole I want to live scene, right? Just, oh, God, I miss him. I miss his presence. And yeah, but Green Mile, too, always still one of my favorites. One of the first movies I ever bought on DVD. It's real. It speaks to people in a way. Your performances, the depth and the authenticity, I'll say it again, speaks to people in a way that I don't even think they realize.

Which again, we'll go back and talk about How I Learned to Drive. It's the reason why I think the play does so well. It speaks to people and makes them uncomfortable in a good way. It makes them think and allows them probably to process things that they may or may not have processed in one way or another. But I totally understand your modus operandi at this point now. So, you need an action hero who has a very deep and complicated past. But you need a good script to write that. Are you an avatar? Can you tell us? Are you going to be an avatar three? That's like something you and Michael Bay could just pull together this avatar character that has so much depth. You can be one of the Na'vi. That would be super cool. Give Michael a call.

[53:40] David Morse: All right, let me just give him that. I'll shoot him a text. I don't know if his cell service reaches underwater, but we'll get there. Real quick, you said you're 6'4". I just didn't want to resolve a conflict. Wikipedia says you are 6'5". IMDB says you're 6'3 ½". So, I'm going to go with 6'4" and update your Wikipedia entry for you.

[54:01] David Morse: Well, go ahead and do that, but I'm 6'3". But go ahead and say I'm 6'4".

[54:10] Alan Seales: Okay, so we'll wrap up here with three standard closing questions. I ask everybody just to end the episodes. The first one, very simply, is what motivates you?

[54:15] David Morse: You probably get the same word over and over again, but it's really love. Love for my family, love for the work I do, trying to love other people. I would say that motivates me as much as anything.

[54:32] Alan Seales: Great, and then what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[54:36] David Morse: Work hard, have faith, and be grateful for the people in your lives and love as much as you can.

[54:51] Alan Seales: Last question. This one's the hardest. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[54:54] David Morse: Oh, wow. You mean one play? One movie? One show?

[55:05] Alan Seales: Well, if you have a different answer for each, then sure. We'll go with one of each.

[55:10] David Morse: Yeah, I don't know if I have one for one of each. I don't. Yeah, it's a really hard one. It's probably not one that I really want to see for the rest of my life, but one of the first Broadway shows I saw, which just was transformative for me, was Equus and that original production on Broadway. Richard Burton was doing it originally, and I got tickets for it. When I went to it, it wasn't Richard Burton. It was another actor, and he was the most fascinating, riveting thing I'd ever seen on a stage. It was Anthony Hopkins. I was like, okay, that's what it means to be on a stage. It was Anthony Hopkins. And I would love to see it again. I don't know if it'll be the rest of my life, but I would love to see it again.

[56:09] Alan Seales: I would love to see anything Anthony Hopkins does on stage, too. Yeah, I can 100% agree.