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[0:01] Alan Seales: This is The Theatre Podcast. If you're a returning listener, welcome back. If you're new, nice to have you. This is intimate, personal conversations with the industry's biggest names. I'm your host, Alan Seales, and our guest today is Jordan Fisher, who is an actor, a singer, a songwriter, and warning, he's a gamer. So this is your warning, we do talk about games. I absolutely love when an already known theatre nerd also becomes a video game nerd because that's speaking all of my languages. It's absolutely so much fun. He co-owns an eSports team, co-owned by several others, including Jerry Jones, who just happens to own the Dallas Cowboys. So we're talking like major kind of stuff here. And he's going back on stage on Broadway right now in Sweeney Todd is a truly just eclectic and all around amazing, seems like super nice guy.

So can't wait to share this episode with you. Find me online on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, say hello, leave a rating, leave a review wherever you are listening now. And now please enjoy this episode with Jordan Fisher.

[1:24] Alan Seales: Today's guest is an actor, singer, songwriter, producer, and gamer whose work has spanned TV and music, Broadway and film. He can be seen in Netflix's Work It and To All the Boys I've Loved Before sequel, The CW's The Flash, and most recently Netflix's Hello, Goodbye, and Everything in Between. Plus HBO's Naked Mole Rat Gets Dressed: The Underground Rock Experience. He's an avid gamer, which I found unexpected, but very cool, and even commentated for the 2019 Fortnite World Cup. Come on, he's the first African American to portray the title character of Evan in Dear Evan Hansen and Mark in Fox's Emmy-nominated Rent Live, as well as being named a breakout star by MTV and People Magazine for Fox's Emmy-winning broadcast, Grease Live.

He won ABC's 25th season of Dancing with the Stars and collaborated with Lin-Manuel Miranda, this up and coming guy, performing a duet with him for Disney's Moana soundtrack, as well as joining the cast of Miranda's Tony Award-winning musical Hamilton. And now shortly, you'll be able to catch him again in the upcoming production of Sweeney Todd on Broadway. Jordan Fisher, holy cow, man, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[2:35] Jordan Fisher: Well, this was great. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

[2:38] Alan Seales: That's all the time we've got. I've read your bio. That took all half out.

[2:42] Jordan Fisher: Oh, my. Come on, man. That's crazy. That's crazy to hear all of that. The last time I heard a bio like that read out loud to me, that was really wonderful.

[2:54] Alan Seales: And that was like a fraction of what you've done, right? Because you started out in... Your breakout role was like Seacat in Disney's Teen Beach movie, right? Which I didn't even talk about in the bio. So I guess, let's back up a second before we even get to the Disney stuff.

[3:11] Jordan Fisher: Okay. I teased this at the beginning, like gamer, holy cow, man. We know you for singing. We know you for acting and everything. But I find so interesting that you are a co-owner of...

[3:24] Jordan Fisher: Complexity Esports Organization.

[3:30] Jordan Fisher: Yeah. So Complexity is an incredible esports organization. I mean, we've got a fantastic multi-million dollar training facility based out of Frisco, Texas. And it's all in the star, which is the... It's kind of Cowboys Nation, if you will. Jerry Jones is one of our primary shareholders.

[3:47] Alan Seales: Jerry Jones, who owns the Dallas Cowboys, for those who don't know.

[3:51] Jordan Fisher: Correct. Yeah. He's one of our primary shareholders. And with that comes this logline of all sorts of perks and benefits for our staff, and more specifically, our athletes that live in Frisco, catty-cornered to the headquarters. They have access to the Cowboys training facilities and their chefs and their doctors, PT, etc. And it's a hub. It's a hub that's ever-growing. And Frisco was the fastest growing city in the nation for the third year in a row for a lot of different reasons.

[4:36] Alan Seales: Complexity Gaming, the name of this company. I want to touch on something you just said that they get... The gamers, these esports gamers get access to physical therapy. What goes into being a professional esports athlete? Because this is my missed calling in life. And I have to know how to be reincarnated and do this.

[4:55] Jordan Fisher: Listen, I got to tell you, there's all sorts of great things. And there's all sorts of... I don't know how censored you are, but shitty things that I...

[5:06] Alan Seales: Whatever you'd like.

[5:07] Jordan Fisher: Okay, great. Yeah, it's rigorous. It's a 10 to 12-hour schedule daily. We're talking four-hour training sessions, two-hour VOD reviews, lunch break.

[5:19] Alan Seales: VOD? Video on Demand? Is that...

[5:21] Jordan Fisher: Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to break it down for people who don't know this because my audience is mostly...

[5:25] Jordan Fisher: VOD reviews. So you know how NBA, NFL, NHL players, they'll sit as a team and go over games and look and strategize and look at opponents that they're facing as well. And it's all of those things. It's 10 hours of the training and all of the organization stuff that we put on the athletes. And then most of them have streaming careers as well. So once they're done working contractually, they'll go home and hop on Twitch or YouTube Gaming and press Go Live and they have their own other streams of revenue and career that they're building as content creators on top of being professional.

[6:13] Jordan Fisher: The metric is rather wild. You actually have a much better, significantly better chance of getting drafted in the NFL than ever being on a roster for a professional esports organization.

[6:26] Alan Seales: What?

[6:27] Jordan Fisher: There's just way more. There's way more talent in the world to filter through. I mean, you got to think about culturally how gaming has defined generation to generation. If you were born pretty much 90s past, gaming has at some point in time, if it is not still today, the heartbeat of a lot of your communal gatherings, you're hanging out, whatever Mario Kart, Mario Party, whatever the thing may be. Gaming has so much dictated the way that we socialize and now especially being able to play online and these multi-IP, multi-platform shooters and RPGs and MMOs and things like that that are all out there to continue to connect us on a day-to-day basis.

[7:18] Jordan Fisher: It's a universal language, gaming, and everyone in the world is a gamer in some capacity. That's something that I've always found very fascinating beyond the social aspect. I mean, just from the problem solving to the teamwork, to the immersion, being able to suspend your reality for some period of time when you're playing a game, whether it's console or on PC, you know, being able to connect with other people and friends. I love, always loved that. I don't remember a time in my life that I didn't either have a mouse and keyboard or a controller in my hand. If you substitute every time you said gaming with theater, that conversation applies exactly. You're in a different reality. You're connecting with people.

So I was going to ask where the love for both of these came from, which is kind of ironic because I'm the same way. I love video games. I love tech, but I love musical theater. So yeah, I love escaping into this reality. So is that why you were so attracted to theater? And I guess, where did the love for theater and singing, acting, and dancing, triple threading, where did that even start?

[8:27] Jordan Fisher: You know, I've always had a thing for art. I was always drawn to it. I mean, from a young age, I'm very performative. There's no art in my family at all, not an artistic bone in anyone's body. Unfortunately, I've always dreamt of having a sibling or a parent or somebody that I could sing with, but hopefully one of my kids loves music. But yeah, I mean, I've always loved sitting down and watching a film, being in a dark theater, turning on an album and like intentionally listening to what I was hearing. And I think I just always extra appreciated it. And I was a gymnast in a small little football town in Birmingham, just outside of Birmingham, Alabama, about 20 minutes. And there really wasn't much going on other than the small football town day to day and football.

And that's pretty much it. And I was a gymnast. And then in fifth grade, I joined the drama club. And that was it. I got bit by the bug. It was Henston. And I'm so grateful that that was the case, obviously. I could have gone down the gymnastics route, and that probably would have been...

[9:50] Alan Seales: Wait, I was reading, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you had the choice to go train for the Olympics in gymnastics, right?

[9:55] Jordan Fisher: The crossroads of my life was either dedicate all of my time and energy to gymnastics, move to Dallas, move to Boulder, move to one of the places where one of the world's gyms was at, and train there. And for the Olympics. Yeah. Yeah. And work my way to hopefully being able to wear red, white, and blue and have a gold medal one day. I mean, like that was the first track. That was the first dream. And that was really the only dream that I had until theater. And then I didn't, there wasn't any kind of, you know, pin on the map of where I wanted to go with it or what I wanted to do with it. I just knew that I loved it. That was really it. I just knew that it was new. I was 10. It was fresh. I'd never experienced anything like it before.

I loved the people. I had so much fun learning all of the stuff. I already loved dancing for fun and trying to make music and things and to be able to hone that with other like-minded kids was a really important step in the whole matter. Mind you gamer throughout all of this, this never like that it beginning of time, you know, for forever. Gaming was always there. But yeah, that was that was the beginning of my love for theater. And it's funny, because I always thought the Broadway would happen long before TV and film. And I was told early on in my career, like, you know, just work on TV and film, and eventually Broadway will call. And that's what happened with Hamilton. Thanks to and due to those relationships that I met and made working on a handful of different projects in Los Angeles. So, you know,

[11:38] Alan Seales: That's insane. And I've said this so many times on this podcast and other episodes that Broadway is the Olympics of theater. It's the best of the best. So you still made it to the Olympics, just in a completely different sport.

[11:49] Jordan Fisher: Totally different sport. Exactly. Yeah, it is that it is rigorous.

[11:57] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah. And you have to Oh, that's, that's what I wanted to ask about, too, was was with everything you've got going on. And it's not just one thing. It's many things that on their own are full time jobs. But then, now, Sweeney Todd. I mean, God, like, the cast list is insane, right? Like you're working alongside Josh Groban, Annaleigh Ashford, Gaten Mazzarano from Stranger Things, right? Ruthie Ann Miles, Gina Duvall, Ray Lee, Samantha Polino, I got I can go on, like, I love every single person in your cast, you included. And so you're here now, you start previews in a week, February 26, a week from now, as we're recording this. So previews are about to start. And so like, where do you still find time? Do you have to put everything else aside? All the gaming? Is gaming at night where you go to unwind? Do you still?

[12:48] Jordan Fisher: It is right now. Yeah, it is. You know, the my work in the gaming space is very much on the creative and structural side, right? Like I, my, I was kind of plucked to bring fashion, music, television, film, long form, short form, you know, multi-platform distribution and marketing and things like that to the gaming space and world and vice versa, for film and television, because everybody wants to, everyone wants to play together, but no one really knows how. And I'm kind of the translator. And in between those spaces, which is which is awesome. I wouldn't want anyone else doing the job to be perfectly honest with you. So in the position that I am, it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of just high level of macro decision making and things all to do with the culture of round gaming, and or gaming itself.

[13:54] Jordan Fisher: My wife and my mother, both two women that know me so well, have always known how important and cathartic and medicinal gaming has been for me, because it's been a release from all of my other work. And so I think that there was real concern about me jumping into the gaming space. And it started with me streaming on Twitch, like that, that's really how that started. You know, being friends with a handful of well-known streamers, definitely, you know, just our real-life bond and friendship. We literally all moved to the same neighborhood in Florida, to be neighbors and to be in each other's lives on a day-to-day basis. And, you know, I'm so grateful that I have been able to stream and be engaged in the gaming space and industry in that way.

I am even more so excited now to be, you know, kind of helping cultivate what it's going to look and feel and sound and taste and smell like culturally, for us moving forward. That's like my day-to-day. And so yeah, right now making the time for myself is like nighttime, Hogwarts Legacy, PS5 on a TV, like I'm like, I'm a teenager, you know, I've got my whole rig here, and I'm a hardcore, I don't know how much you looked into it. But like, I'm like, a pretty good FPS player in North America. So I take it pretty seriously. And I'm known funny enough in the gaming space by a lot of people that do not know me for anything else other than what I do in the gaming space. And that's, it's a refreshing and lovely thing.

I'm very appreciative of it. Like I've been streaming for about five years now. And I still have people that come in my chat. And they're like, did I see you in a TV show? I literally, I watch you because you're good at Apex. Like, that's why I watch I watch to learn so that I could get better at Apex. I didn't know that you were an actor. I've been watching you for two years. Like I people still think they just don't touch television and film and music and fashion and Broadway and all the other things that I do. They know that they know gaming, that's the language that they speak. And I wish that more of us leaned into it. Because I think that we'd all be surprised how much more we all get along when if we all knew that we were all just gamers, really, we're going to take a short break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[16:31] Alan Seales: That was actually my next question was, was if you see a world where musical theater, professional musical theater and professional gaming intersect, because, I mean, with all your composing skills, your writing, you're producing and everything, there's I think there's an option. There's a there's a path forward somewhere in the multi. Where you're creating a musical about gaming and they play games on stage.

[17:00] Jordan Fisher: Yeah, something else. I mean, if you know, we're really talking about the multiverse here as well, like, you know, VR and full dive one day is going to be that's that's going to be a thing. This isn't this isn't sci-fi that we're talking about, like, we will eventually be able to have some sort of neurotransmission and be able to feel like we're in a game, which is which is super exciting. I think that there's a massive theatrical element to a lot of what streaming is. Live theater, I'm not entirely sure, but concerts, multi-sensory experience of some sort where favorite streamers go on tour, and they have multiple elements of their show that make it feel like they're streaming, but it's happening live.

And for a few hours, I think that there's a structure there that has never really been tampered with. That could be something really cool. Especially if you know, if it's a genuine tour, and you include, like, acts and all sorts of things that, you know, engage with people, I mean, there's a, so there's a real theatrical quality to just be gaming in general. The way that stories are told, I think that there's, you know, there's going to be much more opportunity for us to be able to kind of be a part of experiences in real time in the gaming space. And I'm excited to, you know, whatever, whatever that is, is resting deep within Pandora's box, but eventually, something's going to happen to crack it.

And it will continue to evolve. That's all gaming has been. That's all it will continue to do. It's been here for such a long time. It's been a billion-dollar industry for such a long time. And honestly, thanks to Fortnite, Drake and Ninja playing with each other. I mean, that was where probably the biggest cultural shift happened in gaming history, I think.

[19:12] Alan Seales: The world of celebrity gaming, it's so foreign to me because it like eSports. I'm 42. So like, when I was under 10, I played Mario Brothers nonstop, right? And then, and like, I had the, when the color Game Boy came out, it was like, ooh. And now it's literally, you've got like, the most powerful PCs sitting, playing games, right? But people are building their own gaming PCs and PS5 is a PC and the Xbox, all this stuff. And the computing power now to put all those together in real time, sounds like something like if you, if you take all of your connections, your Disney connections, with your eSports connections, with your theater connections, I'm just putting this out in the universe, man. You got a lot of potential to make something that's really, really cool. And I want to be first to beta test that. So you got to call me because I need to help you develop it.

[20:01] Jordan Fisher: You got it. So Sweeney Todd, I'm going to take it back to this for a second because it's directed by Tommy Kail, who directed Hamilton, directed by musical supervision by Alex Lacamoire, who also did Hamilton and Dear Evan Hansen. So like, all of this is within your ecosystem. And I absolutely love, love, love. And Sweeney Todd, I mean, again, Sondheim, like everything about this is set up, Josh Groban, Annaleigh Ashford as the leads, everything about this is set up for absolute success. And I mean, I don't know what you're allowed to say yet, because we haven't even opened previews, but what's, what's different about this production? Like you've got such a big smile on your face right now. What, what's different about this that you can tell us that we can look forward to?

[20:45] Jordan Fisher: The best, the best way for me to put it, honestly, is that, you know, I think that Sweeney definitely because of the image that's painted in our head, especially regardless of what production we've seen or version of whatever pro shot or movie or blah, blah, blah is dastardly and dark and about murder and revenge and blood. And at the end of the day, and this has always been the case with this material, it's been about love. And I think that we are challenging humanity and our take on a piece that is going to still look and feel and sound very familiar, but just so much bigger and larger, because that's what sound mixing is like today. And we have a 26-piece orchestra and 31 people with some of the best voices in the world on stage.

So it's gonna, you know, it's bound to, of course, look and sound good. As you said, like the cast list is great. It's all, you know, all of the pieces are there, the tools are there to build something beautiful. And what we're trying to build is tall and large and strong, which means that it must be rooted in the foundation must go deep. That only means truth, that means humanity. And if you know any Tommy Kail pieces at all, you know that he will never allow authenticity to be sacrificed. And that's what I'm excited for people to see is like the most realistic telling of this material. The most, the most realistic version.

[22:29] Alan Seales: That's really, that's interesting, because like the off-Broadway version that we had a couple years ago, I thought was really good, and it was immersive. And this version now, I'm so excited for it because like you said, it is a story of love. And Joanna, I used to use that song for auditions for years. It's just one of those things that, it's one of those things that I really, really love. The whole show is just like I said, so encompassing and so incredible. And I can't wait to see it. But we're going to take a short break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[23:18] Alan Seales: I want to wrap though, I want to wrap up with three. Actually, I'm gonna give you four. I normally ask three standard closing questions, but I'm gonna throw in a fun one at the end. Okay, so the first one, just very simply, is what motivates you?

[23:34] Jordan Fisher: My family. I mean, I know that that's, it's a cliche, blah, blah, blah. It's just, I mean, I know that that's, it's a cliche, blah, blah, blah. It's just honest. Everything I do is for my family.

[23:52] Alan Seales: Love it. All right, so the next question.

[23:54] Jordan Fisher: Which includes me. I want to say, I think that it's important to emphasize that like, everything I do, I do for my family, including myself. Like, I do it for me and my unit, so that we are good and happy and healthy and full of life and love and get to live and experience. And yeah, that's my motivation.

[24:17] Alan Seales: All right. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[24:23] Jordan Fisher: Okay, so it's two different answers. The advice that I would give to myself is nothing at all. I love the way that I have learned things. I love the bumps and the bruises and the scrapes and all of the things. I, all of it has made me who I am. And I appreciate that. So that's kind of always been my take. And I'm sticking to it. But advice that I would, you know, one of those, you know, do as I say, not as I do, kind of ways, of course, like we all do everything that we can to be great people to be good people. But leading with kindness is one of the hardest acts in the world. It really is. It's true. It is truly one of the hardest things to do because it, our pride and our ego suffer. And those are very fragile things that we live with, my friend. And it's leading with kindness is, that's the only way.

[25:22] Alan Seales: I would add reacting with kindness.

[25:24] Jordan Fisher: Reacting.

[25:26] Alan Seales: Yeah, that's hard. When someone comes at you like hard, it's hard to just, like Rochelle Obama says, they go low, you go high. That's hard.

[25:34] Jordan Fisher: A hundred percent. My favorite way of handling most of those situations is to just let them say what they're saying, continue to look at them. So that was very unkind. And I usually, you know, the deer in headlights pops out, the defenses come up, and then things get diffused because it's just like, let's just not be that way. You know what I mean? And if we could all just not be that way, it'd be a much better place.

[26:11] Alan Seales: All right. So third question, if you can only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[26:15] Jordan Fisher: Once on this Island.

[26:19] Alan Seales: Oh, that's a new one.

[26:22] Jordan Fisher: Favorite musical of all time.

[26:23] Alan Seales: Love it. Love it. Okay. So this is the fourth question I'm throwing in just for you. If you could only play one game for the rest of your life, but you can play it as long and as many times as you want, what would you play?

[26:31] Jordan Fisher: For replayability and story and social connection. And it's got a long way to go. Probably Lost Ark.

[26:52] Alan Seales: Okay. I've never played it and now I have to.

[26:54] Jordan Fisher: All right. Pretty awesome. I love it.

[26:59] Alan Seales: Okay. Where can we connect with you online? You've got a couple different social media accounts where you're very all over.

[27:06] Jordan Fisher: Yeah. Just Jordan Fisher, Jordan Fisher everywhere. I think Jordan underscore Fisher on TikTok, but yeah, it's Jordan Fisher. You can just Google, throw it in the word. And you got like on Instagram, you got complexity gaming. There's Jordan Fisher gaming. You've got your own gaming account and all this. Twitch.tv slash Jordan Fisher. Yeah, dude. It's all there. It is. It's all there. And of course, you know, Sweeney Todd on Broadway, like do it. I cannot wait to see it. I cannot wait to see you in it.

[27:40] Jordan Fisher: Awesome. Thank you so much, brother. I appreciate you.