This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to another episode of The Theatre Podcast. Intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names. I'm Alan Seales.

[0:12] Jillian Hockman: And I'm Jillian Hockman, producer extraordinaire.

[0:15] Alan Seales: Extraordinaire. Hi, Jillian.

[0:17] Jillian Hockman: Hello.

[0:17] Alan Seales: This episode is with Jarrod Spector, who's currently starring as Sonny Bono in The Cher Show, and I have to say is just phenomenal. I can't say enough good things about his performance in this show.

[0:31] Jillian Hockman: Yeah, he is fantastic, and you two dig deep in this episode.

[0:35] Alan Seales: Oh, yes, we do. We actually ran out of time because we were chatting before he had to run to a show, and we just ran out of time digging into his past, and he actually gets really deep into mental health, which I love. I absolutely love when people are open and comfortable enough to talk about that, because I think so much of us aren't able to.

[1:00] Jillian Hockman: It's nice to see successful people talking about struggles, and nice to hear that people that we admire go through the same things that we do and have the similar paths or are trying to figure out what they want to do. And it's comforting to know you may not be alone in this.

[1:20] Alan Seales: I think so many people in the world really don't either know what they want to do ever in their life, or they kind of think they do, and then they get there, and they're like, oh, yeah, this isn't what I thought it would be. And I really enjoy, especially in this podcast, it's kind of come up a couple times, but especially with Jarrod here, we do dive deep that he went to college for finance after making his Broadway debut as a kid, right? Because he thought that's what he wanted to do. And he gets there and just cannot stand it, comes back, doesn't know, still doesn't know what he wants to do after he leaves college. And then, you know, found his way into these amazing character roles that we know him for now. And I, you know, I applaud him for taking the chance and realizing, you know, listening to his gut and getting over the struggles that he was having internally.

[2:13] Jillian Hockman: Yeah, and it's okay to change your mind and to say, I'm not cut out for this, or I tried it, and it's not for me, and find a different path. And even if you have to float around for a little bit, try everything, be open. And that's what makes you a better actor, a better performer, and a better person. And it's very clear through Jarrod Spector that he is a great person and a great performer. And just so cute.

[2:37] Alan Seales: Yes, everybody, please enjoy this episode with Jarrod Spector.

[2:49] Alan Seales: Today's guest made his Broadway debut as Gavroche in the original production of Les Misérables and went on to play a record-breaking 1500 performances as Frankie Valli in Jersey Boys on Broadway. He's been seen on national tours of Les Misérables and Jersey Boys and in the off-Broadway productions of Hamlet. He was nominated for both the Tony and Outer Critics Circle Awards for his performance as Barry Mann in Beautiful: The Carole King Musical, and can now be seen in The Cher Show as Sonny Bono. Welcome, Jarrod Spector. Thank you for talking with me today.

[3:18] Jarrod Spector: My pleasure. Thank you for having me, man.

[3:20] Alan Seales: Nope. Oh, it's all right. Come on in. Waters have arrived.

[3:24] Jarrod Spector: Hallelujah.

[3:26] Alan Seales: Thank you. You need him for these long talks.

[3:27] Jarrod Spector: That's right. So you have a show tonight, so we'll get started here. But as we always do on this podcast, we talk about your humble upbringings, your standard beginnings here. Where were you born? What kind of child were you?

[3:40] Jarrod Spector: I was born at Einstein Hospital in Philadelphia.

[3:45] Alan Seales: So specific.

[3:47] Jarrod Spector: Well, you wanted humble. Yeah, I was born in Philadelphia. I grew up, my parents had me singing at a really young age. I mean, that's sort of what we're talking about here, right, is how you start, how I ended up where I am now. So my mother, I'm the youngest of four children, but my siblings are much older than me, seven, eight, nine years older than me, which when you're an infant is quite a bit. So I was sort of an only child and also not. I had sort of the best of both worlds. So I spent a lot of time riding around in the car with my mom, and she noticed that I would learn radio commercials and memorize them. Back in the day when there weren't so many channels and there weren't so many ads, you could actually remember them.

And so I used to sing along and she thought, cute, right? And then she taught me Sunny Side of the Street and Me and My Shadow and Side by Side. She taught me a few songs that we sang for my father, who then was impressed that his two-year-old could sing. And they took me to a local vocal coach in Philadelphia.

[4:52] Jarrod Spector: At two?

[4:53] Jarrod Spector: At two and a half, yeah. And that gentleman, his name was Russell Faith, he's actually Andrea McArdle's voice coach. And he said, well, there's this local TV show called the Al Albert Showcase. It's this local variety show in Philadelphia that was on weekend mornings. And he said, go over there and audition for them. And so we did, and I became a teeny bopper, was the name of the segment on the show where children would sing and tell Uncle Al a joke every week then for the next three and a half years before I went on to Star Search and other things.

[5:30] Alan Seales: Wow. So Star Search was age six.

[5:33] Jarrod Spector: Yes.

[5:34] Alan Seales: And what was the process like to get on that?

[5:38] Jarrod Spector: I mean, honestly, I can't remember every detail of it, but there was definitely an audition in New York. And then I think that was it. I think it was one or two auditions, but I remember not flying to Los Angeles until I was actually going to be on the show. So I remember that there was an executive producer named Sam Riddle. He was there and he okayed me. And then we sort of got the green light to go to LA. And it's so funny because it actually is a pretty significant memory for me, but I can't imagine that it took that long for all of it to happen because there were sometimes when they film on Tuesdays and Thursdays. So this whole thing, I mean, I was on for five episodes and then I came back for like the semifinals or whatever. And I lost both times to the same girl, Countess Vaughn. And she was like Whitney Houston in a 10-year-old's body. It really wasn't fair. And I was six. I just couldn't compete.

[6:30] Alan Seales: Six versus ten, that's a big difference.

[6:32] Jarrod Spector: Really big difference. She had a canon of a voice. I mean, it wasn't fair. Yeah.

[6:38] Alan Seales: And so then how did you get to New York and making your Broadway debut at age nine in Les Mis?

[6:45] Jarrod Spector: Well, I put myself on the train and no, jokes. Nobody does that, right? Your parents have to, everyone always asks, are your parents like stage parents? Is it like Mama Rose? It's not like that, but certainly no six, seven, eight, nine-year-old does it of their own accord from Philadelphia to New York. So yes, my parents took me to New York. I started auditioning when I actually, my first audition for Les Mis was for the tour that came through Philadelphia when I was seven. So that would be like 1998, excuse me, 1988. Or 98 if I'm in my fantasy world. 1988, I was seven and the tour came through when I was just too young. And then a couple of years later, same thing happened. The tour of Les Mis was coming through Philly again.

And my parents took me to an audition. Now this one, I do remember it was hell on earth in retrospect. I mean, I don't think I thought it was hell on earth at the time, but as an adult thinking about walking into a ballroom in some hotel in center city Philly with God, I don't know, however many hundreds of kids and all of their stage parents, it really is a nightmare. And they give you a number and they brand you like your cattle and then they call you in one at a time. And I remember getting through that particular process. And then the callback was in New York and it was a much smaller group, was a much smaller room. And it was me and however, a dozen other kids or whatever and their parents.

And I was the first one called into the room to audition. And I did my little thing. And then they called my parents into the room, which I think that's unusual. I mean, it certainly is unusual, would be unusual now. But they called my parents in and said, okay, congratulations, Jared has the job. Here are three tickets, go enjoy the show tonight.

[8:28] Alan Seales: Just like that.

[8:29] Jarrod Spector: Just like that. And then as we were about to leave, they said, wait, wait, wait, do me a favor, don't celebrate on the way out because we don't want everyone else to know that the job's already gone. And I think about that every audition I go on forever. I mean, every time I'm in a room, because it's always possible that they've actually on the spot handed the job to the person right before you. And then that asshole isn't allowed to say anything on the way out. And so you're just standing there and going, I mean, I try to have good faith and things, but yeah, that's how that happened.

[9:04] Alan Seales: Oh gosh, that's something that you never shake.

[9:07] Jarrod Spector: No, never. I mean, even though it was good for me in that moment, it actually, it's a scary thing to know.

[9:15] Alan Seales: Oh geez. Yeah. That makes me not want to ever audition again.

[9:19] Jarrod Spector: Well, I mean, there are many things that would make you not want to. I mean, auditioning in general, it's just asking to be judged. I mean, I know there are lots of people and there are books written about this. How many books about how to enjoy the audition, how to do the audition? And I personally have never quite mastered the mental side of it, of making it feel like a performance opportunity or, you know, well, even if you don't get it, you make a good impression. I mean, those are really good motivating things and you always want to do the best work that you can. And I enjoy analyzing scripts and performing and all those things. So there is some of that, but I don't know how you, I don't know how you separate yourself out from the reality that you're asking for a job and you're either going to get it or you're not.

And there might be reasons far outside your control why you get it or don't get it. And yet it's still so hard to shake that very personal feeling. You know, it's just, it's a hard life. Even when you meet with some level of success, it's still a hard, it's a hard life.

[10:17] Jillian Hockman: Yeah. Yeah. Because you're putting yourself out there. I mean, it's personal, right? If you connect with your character, if you find the emotional connection and then all of a sudden you don't get the part, you know, I can, I can understand through personal experience why you're like, oh, you know, did I, am I not good enough? Because I put myself into that.

[10:35] Jarrod Spector: Absolutely. The more that you want it, the more that you like it and, you know, and the more you do exactly what you're saying, like indulge in this character and dive in, it's, you know, the stakes can't help but go up a little bit. It's like, oh my goodness, I don't want to let my imagination run away with the possibility of what it would be like to get this role and do it. And yet, how can I not? How could you not? You know, it's really hard to control that. I mean, that is kind of the art of surviving in, you know, in this world is to figure out how to deal with that.

[11:06] Alan Seales: So you got Gavroche.

[11:08] Jarrod Spector: Yes.

[11:08] Alan Seales: And you were nine. And what was it like for you being a kid on Broadway?

[11:11] Jarrod Spector: I mean, I definitely didn't know the significance of it. I, you know, I was a child. I didn't know. I, you know, it was super, I mean, it was incredibly fun, right? I mean, my costume were actual rags. My makeup was you burn a cork with a light. First of all, I just was, I was, got to play with a lighter. So you burn a cork with a lighter and rub it on your face. That's makeup when you're, when you're Gavroche and you put like actual grease in your hair and you're good to go. So, and then you get to run around on stage and you're the only kid for the most part. I mean, there are, you know, they're the girls who play Cosette, but during the back half of the show, you're the only kid with a whole bunch of fun loving actor adults who are, you know, throwing you around.

Then you run around and get to play with a fake gun. And I mean, it's, and then die. I mean, it's, it's just like a dream role. I wish I could play Gavroche now. My voice might be high enough. So that's cool.

[12:06] Alan Seales: But yeah, the way you describe that, it seems like every kid's perfect, perfect image.

[12:11] Jarrod Spector: Oh, it's the best. It's the best. So that part, I remember being quite a bit of fun. I mean, I do remember my first moment going on actually is, it's very specific because it's right before, I mean, if you know Les Mis, and many people do, it's right, it's that it's when Paris comes, it's when Valjean and Cosette disappear, and then they show up in Paris. And you have to sneak on stage in the dark with all this smoke billowing on stage, at least in the production that I was in, and everyone is sort of moaning because they're homeless, you know, they're like beggars on the streets of Paris. And so you have all these people moaning, and you're like a little kid, sneaking on the stage in the dark and covering myself with a blanket with all this smoke, and then having to get up and run down and start singing, you know, to 1500 people at the Imperial Theatre. I mean, it was, it's quite an experience that I viscerally remember, despite the fact that it was 21 years ago.

[13:03] Alan Seales: Yeah. I mean, did you still feel like you had a normal life outside of theater at that point? And after that, did you want to continue? Did you still audition? I guess, did your parents take you to more auditions? Or do you like, I need a middle school experience now?

[13:20] Jarrod Spector: No, I definitely had a normal life outside of the show. I did the show in Philadelphia, and in Chicago, and on Broadway, and in all those cases. I mean, when I did the show in Philly, and in New York, I used to miss Wednesdays because of at school, because of a matinee. But for the other four days of the week, I was at school, and I did my normal workload, because it was elementary school, and how much work actually is there, right? So, and when you're Gavroche, you're only on four out of the eight shows a week. So I was able to actually do homework while I was at the theater. And then, when that was over, and I sort of grew out of it, because I think the cutoff was like 46 inches, if you're more than 40, so you can't, the Nigel Ross can't pick you up on his shoulder anymore, or whatever it is.

So you can't be at it for that long. And then, I definitely still auditioned for things, but I definitely had a bunch of years there where I was just in school, like normal. And it wasn't until, I actually booked this sitcom pilot when I was 14 years, 14 or 15 years old. And that was the next big thing in my life that sort of took me to this crossroad of what am I going to do? Because I was, we went out to LA and filmed this sitcom pilot that, for NBC, it had Peter Boyle, young Frankenstein. Everybody loves Raymond. Peter Boyle was the grandfather, and this amazing actor from The Sopranos, Michael Raspoli, was the father. And it was this really cool, and I got to sing and play the piano on the show.

It was called The Larsons of Las Vegas. And the father was a professional gambler. And this was about three or four years before the Texas Hold'em craze happened in this country. And the feedback, even though the show was quite funny, was ultimately that after we filmed the pilot and test audiences, they didn't like that the father was a gambler. That was the big smack against the show. And I swear, if it had come out five years later, it would have been a hit, but it came out, and that's when they put up the money for it. And I remember being a kid and getting this call. I was alone at home when I got this call that the pilot wasn't going forward. In the meantime, we were supposed to have moved to Los Angeles, and this whole new life was going to begin.

And my siblings were old enough, they were in college or out of college by then, and we could pick up and move to LA. It was doable. And then this sort of failure of the pilot, and none of it was going to happen. And I remember having this moment of being like, I am not mature enough to handle this. I am a little boy, really, in terms of maturity.

[15:44] Alan Seales: You were 14.

[15:44] Jarrod Spector: Yeah, I was 14 or 15, something like that. I was in eighth or ninth grade. I was so young. That was the moment when I said, I don't want to audition anymore. I don't want to go to New York or LA. I don't want to do anything. I just want to be a kid. So that lasted a little while.

[15:59] Alan Seales: Well, I was going to say it didn't last very long, because you went to Princeton.

[16:07] Jarrod Spector: And what degree did you get from Princeton?

[16:10] Jarrod Spector: Right. So I didn't get a degree from Princeton. Here's what happened.

[16:14] Alan Seales: Tell me the story.

[16:15] Jarrod Spector: Here's the story. Well, I had this sort of, you know, I had it in my mind that being in this particular industry was a life of uncertainty and pain. I did not have a good relationship with New York. I didn't want to be here. I thought it was loud and dirty and scary and awful. That was the impression I had. I mean, and it is, but I didn't love it for those reasons. I hated it for those reasons when I was a kid and I just didn't want to be here. And Los Angeles was so far away. You know, I wanted to be with my friends and I wanted, you know, so I worked real hard in school and I went to Princeton. Now, all throughout this time, I'm still singing. I mean, my voice changed. So I had a moment where I didn't enjoy singing that much because it started to hurt, but then it came back and I never stopped singing or, you know, being in music.

I still did the musicals at my school. I just didn't want to do anything professionally. And I certainly, when I was applying to all of these colleges, I still used Broadway and my interest in musicals and the musicals at their particular school as a way to get into the school. But when I went to Princeton, I studied economics and I took Chinese in my sophomore year. And my idea was I was going to be, and I say this with quotes because we're like a regular person, which is the dumbest concept. There is nothing, there is no such thing as a regular person, but that's what I thought that I wanted to be, you know, someone not in this industry. And meantime, I did, I was fine in school, but it was just so hard to keep up because I didn't really want to do it.

I was sort of staring down the barrel of a life and career that did not interest me. And just because I could get by in the classes and I thought, oh, I could ultimately do this. I guess if I put my, if I had my heart in it, it doesn't mean that I should do it.

[17:54] Alan Seales: What did you think your degree was going to be in?

[17:54] Jarrod Spector: Economics. I like finance. That was my trajectory. That's what I thought I wanted to do. And meantime, Princeton has this amazing, it's called the Triangle Club. It's like the oldest musical theater group in all of the universities, I believe. And it has like F. Scott Fitzgerald was in it and Brooke Shields. And it was this really cool thing. And I spent all of my time and energy and effort there because that's what I really wanted to do. Meanwhile, I wasn't getting any credit for that. And I was killing myself keeping up with my classes when you're in the school with like, you know, the upper 1% of everyone who's brilliant and you think you're smart and you get there and you're like, well, I'm not that smart.

And also they loved it and I didn't. And it was just, it was just, you know, it became too much. And I had to leave after two years and try to figure out what the hell I was going to do with myself. My parents were understanding. I moved home and I sang for a wedding and bar mitzvah band for a year.

[19:52] Alan Seales: What was the name of that?

[19:54] Jarrod Spector: Oh, gosh.

[19:56] Jarrod Spector: I really hope it's a good pun.

[19:58] Jarrod Spector: Oh, God. No, it's, oh, God.

[20:00] Jarrod Spector: How about tequila?

[20:03] Jarrod Spector: Oh, I wish.

[20:04] Jarrod Spector: No, it was called, oh, I remember it was called Cutting Edge Orchestras.

[20:07] Alan Seales: Okay.

[20:08] Jarrod Spector: Yeah. Yeah. Not quite. No, no, not nearly the dad joke that how tequila would have been. So, yeah, so I did that for a year and trying to figure out what the hell I was going to do with myself. And I definitely, I mean, I mean, I was depressed and I, you know, I couldn't, my second semester of my sophomore year at Princeton was not good. I mean, I just, I was having this kind of breakdown because my body was telling me one thing and my brain and heart were telling me other things. And I just couldn't, I was like, you know, everything was, the wires got crossed and I sort of zapped myself because I just was in a place I didn't want to be doing something I didn't want to do. But I was also living this life because this other half of me at school was doing this thing that I was very much thriving in.

And I just, I couldn't, I didn't have the heart to tell my parents that I needed to leave what had just been ranked like the number one school in the country or whatever the hell. That didn't matter. I didn't care. It's a hard thing to tell your folks. And so, yeah, so by the time that year at home was a learning experience of trying to figure out what am I going to do? Meanwhile, all my friends are still, you know, are now juniors in college and they're moving on with their lives. And I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? And that following summer, I moved to New York with my two closest friends and started and fell in love with the city and decided, okay, I'm going to take performance classes and I'll figure out what to do.

I'll just take whatever classes and play the piano and, you know, sing and whatever, and I'll figure something out. And that was the best decision I made, you know, was sort of facing my fear of being in this city and doing it with, you know, with best friends who could make it fun to be here and take advantage of everything that the city offers in a way that I obviously didn't when I was nine. I hated it so much. And so that was a whole different dynamic. And then it became fun. Then it became exciting. And, you know, being here was a joy. And I started auditioning and that didn't really lead to a whole hell of a lot. But I did end up at a really hardcore theater program at the Atlantic Theater Company.

[21:10] Alan Seales: Yeah. So I did that, you know, I went there for like two and a half years because I realized I didn't know how to act. I mean, I just had no training in that area. I could sing because I had always sung and I'd always had lessons, but I didn't know anything about acting technique, not really. And so two and a half years of that was a whole different thing. And when I came out of there, of course, I was like, well, now I'm only going to do Chekhov, Ibsen, Shaw and Shakespeare and Odets and I'm not going to. And then, of course, you know, I was cast as Frankie Valli.

[21:39] Alan Seales: That's funny. Wesley Taylor, too, came out of North Carolina School of the Arts. It has a similar story that reminds me of this, that, you know, he came out and he's like classically trained and doing Shakespeare and his first Broadway debut was Rock of Ages.

[21:52] Jarrod Spector: Rock of Ages, of course.

[21:54] Alan Seales: Yeah, of course, because that makes sense.

[21:55] Jarrod Spector: Right. I mean, listen, I think everybody, if you're playing a principal, well, if you're playing a speaking role in a Broadway show, you have to know how to deliver lines. So all of that training comes in handy, irrespective of what you thought you were going to end up doing or how highbrow you thought the scripts were going to be. And you can't reasonably expect to do Chekhov, Ibsen, Shaw and Shakespeare for the rest of your life, especially if you want to be on Broadway, because it's a lot of musicals and a lot of the great work are musicals. So, you know, and one of my smartest teachers that I really enjoy, like, flex every muscle you have. Don't limit yourself based on some preconceived notion of what you want to do, what you think you can do. Like, try everything. And if you if you can play an instrument, great. If you can dance, great. If you can act, great. If you can sing, definitely great. Do all the things.

[22:43] Jarrod Spector: And so, you know, of course, I was expecting to do Shakespeare soliloquies and instead it was like, hey, Tommy, fuck you. You know, I mean, that it was a very it was a big tangent.

[22:55] Alan Seales: Right. I want to go back to something you said that I was impressed that you said at 14 you had the wherewithal to say like, man, I'm not equipped to do this. I don't want to do it anymore. And then at 20, I presume 19 or 20, like halfway through college, you're like, all right, this isn't what I want to do. You're emotionally conflicted. You know, it wasn't like I'm not getting good grades. I just can't do it anymore. But you said you're doing very well.

[23:20] Jarrod Spector: And I personally, me, I couldn't I wouldn't have had had the maturity to do that. I don't even think I would now. At 20, you're saying or at the 38 right now. But no, at 20, like at 14, definitely, I would have been like, okay, you know, like, Broadway, that's kind of cool. Give it a shot. And then at 20, I remember being I went to I got a computer science degree.

[23:43] Alan Seales: Okay.

[23:43] Jarrod Spector: And the similar sort of thing. I was just like, well, I'm okay at it. I'm great. I'm good. Got good grades. I'm going to do this. And I'll see it out. And then I got my degree. And I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. So I went through with it.

[24:02] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[24:02] Jarrod Spector: But no, I'm that's very impressive that you were like, I don't want to do this anymore.

[24:06] Jarrod Spector: Well, I don't want to, you know, let's let me revise the story a little bit to something closer to truth. I don't want to well, I don't want to mislead you and feel like I absolutely I stood up and I told my parents this thing. What happened was that I was falling apart emotionally. I think, you know, when I was 14, I did have that sort of revelation that I'm I'm I was mature enough to know that I was too immature.

[24:22] Jarrod Spector: To handle it, right? So, I wasn't, I mean, I was, in some ways, I was advanced, but in other ways, I was behind. So, I guess I could sort of recognize that. And then, that second half of my sophomore year at Princeton, that, you know, I don't know about you, but when I was in school, especially, you know, middle school, high school, whatever, you do your work because you're told. You know, this is what, these are your classes, you take them, you do the best that you can. And I sort of always had that reservoir of, okay, they told me to, so I'll do it. And that ran out for me in the middle of sophomore year. I mean, it was a combination of getting closer to real life and being like, well, what am I actually doing?

How do these classes, this is in English now, right? These are supposed to be professional application classes that I'm taking to get toward my actual real life. It's not, you know, the liberal arts education that you get in high school. So, it wasn't so much just for fun, not that high school is for fun, but do you know what I'm saying? Like, you sort of just do it, you get an education. And this felt very much like I was headed towards something and I just fell apart. And there were days where I could not get out of bed and I couldn't go to class. So, it wasn't as simple as I made the decision and told my parents. It was really hard. I mean, it was very much a breakdown. I mean, I got caught for all intents and purposes by my parents after sort of eluding this truth for a long time.

I mean, I remember, I mean, this is a real confession, but I remember like a letter coming from Princeton, like sort of giving my parents a heads up that something was going on and I made sure I was home to take it out of the mail and make sure that they didn't get it. And, you know, I mean, I was not an idiot, I was deceptive, but it was also that just made the whole thing so much harder, living this sort of duality. I mean, my girlfriend at the time, she did the best she could with me, but she wasn't emotionally equipped to handle what I was going through. And so, that fell apart too. I mean, when you're in high school, some relationship from 16 to 20, it's like your whole world and that was falling apart too.

You know, it's just all these things kind of fell apart all at once until I was, you know, a bit of a puddle, which is, I had to go home. I mean, I could have gone back to school. There was absolutely a path for me to go, but I just, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't handle it.

[26:29] Alan Seales: Yeah. I've talked to a lot of people in this podcast now and I feel like a requirement to being a lead on Broadway is to have some sort of, having dealt with depression or some sort of emotional breakdown at some point.

[26:42] Jarrod Spector: Oh, yeah. There are so many people and I mean, gosh, I feel like I repeat myself every time. This comes up a lot in these interviews and these podcasts and there's people that they just have, they have the, they're more in touch with their own emotional state. And I guess that's what I was trying to say earlier is I was not, me personally, I was not aware of myself enough to know, you know what, this is tearing me apart on the inside, but I'm covering it up, but I'm far enough away from it that it's not bothering me. Whereas someone with your talent and your ability to connect with a character and your ability to express yourself and your ability to really bring true acting out, truly successful, great people, by default, you are dealing with your emotions at a deeper level than most people are.

[27:33] Jarrod Spector: See, what's funny about what you just said is it seems like you're the one who has the skill though. That ability to separate out, okay, this is what I have to do even though that's how I feel and I'm just going to sort of put my head down and continue is a skill in and of itself that I guess I had for a while, but in that moment, I no longer could. That is what drove me crazy. It's that split and I couldn't do it anymore, the thing that you're talking about. You know what I mean?

[28:00] Alan Seales: Yeah. And literally, I'm looking away thinking, I'm getting very inside my head right now. You just blew my mind. Grass is always greener. Jesus, it's the same thing that I've gone through in the rejection and wanting to be good enough. And so, I guess for fear of being rejected and not being good enough, I never allow myself to connect at a deep enough level to be good enough. So, I'm just okay sabotaging myself.

[28:27] Jarrod Spector: Oh, okay. Does that make sense?

[28:28] Alan Seales: Yes, it sure does. You know, it's funny that, yes, I think that you have to have an emotional break to be in this business, but it is funny. I went to the Atlantic Theater Company, which is founded by David Mamet and William H. Macy. And I remember Mamet coming. They would come back and teach masterclasses every now and again. As you can imagine, William Macy was the nicest guy. Oh, man, he was inspiring and lovely. And that's not to say that Mamet wasn't, just in a very different way. Mamet's brain is genius. He would come up with, you know, if you studied any of these methods, you know, your actions and things, and you sort of have to analyze a scene and his ability to break down a scene and put into his very specific language and a way that you can connect to it, it is unparalleled and uncanny.

But he also said something like, yeah, you know, if none of you had fucked up childhoods, you're not going to make it. It's just not going to be interesting to watch. And you're like, oh, shit. Well, I had nice parents. Does that mean I should just leave? I had no pain to get in touch with. I know, I had no pain. I mean, I had, you know, I'd had my sort of late childhood core pain, but I didn't have a fucked up childhood, I guess. So I created one for myself when I was a little older.

[29:38] Jarrod Spector: Wow. Yeah, that's incredible. I'm glad, and thank you for talking about that. I know, like, a lot of people don't like talking about mental health, especially. I mean, there's no shame in it. There shouldn't be. I was 18, 19, like, if anyone thinks less of me or anybody else for going through it, you know, when anybody goes through, frankly, at any age, but certainly when you're a kid and unprepared for it, you know, go fuck yourself, because life is hard. And it's not what happens to you. It's the way that you deal with it, I think, you know, and being honest with yourself, finding help, finding a way out of it, and then figuring out a way to not let it happen again, you know, learning the tools to not let it happen again.

And when I feel anything, if I ever again felt anything like that creeping up, I would be aware of it. I would be ready for it. So, you know, I mean, there's no shame in any of it. I don't think, certainly shouldn't be. I don't think anymore. I used to think, yeah, because my parents didn't talk about it. They still kind of don't, especially my mother, like, shies away from anything real. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm working on that with her. So, mom, if you're listening, let's talk.

[30:42] Alan Seales: So, let's get back to shows, huh? Jersey Boys.

[30:42] Jarrod Spector: Jersey Boys, 1,500 performances, over six years. That's incredible. Like, what kept you going with Frankie Valli for so long?

[30:49] Jarrod Spector: A couple things. I started the show on the road. Well, not on the road. I did the show in San Francisco for a year. So, the carrot was what's the next thing, and then they gave me the Chicago company. So, like, I went from one place to the other, and then it showed there for a year. And then the carrot, while I was in Chicago, was Broadway. Then I got to Broadway. And then why do you stay? Well, it was the recession. Every show on Broadway was... I mean, a lot of them were closing. I mean, just things couldn't last, right? I mean, I remember when we were... Hairspray closed while I was in Jersey Boys. You know, like, big shows were closing, let alone new ones that just couldn't hang on. And I remember, if you pay attention to, like, the Broadway box office grosses, it's actually... The biggest shows actually made more money or stayed at 100% because anyone who was going to spend the money was going to do the short bet, like Wicked and Lion King and Jersey Boys, sort of the mainstays.

And, you know, I was looking around at people who were struggling for jobs, and I was like, you know, in my late 20s and making good money, I was like, I'm going to leave this. I wasn't going to leave for no reason, and I was petrified to leave and be completely unemployed. I also just, for what it's worth, you know, I went in for things and I just didn't book them for, you know, one reason or another. I think that's part of the thing is you do something for a long time, and if it's very specific, then people assume that's the thing that you do, that's the thing that you are, that snapshot they get of you in those couple of hours, that's all that you are, that encompasses all of your talent.

And so that was, you know, I've certainly fought against that in pretty much every role I've ever done. Because I remember when I was in Jersey Boys, every time I would go into any room, it was, well, he's too Frankie Valli, he's too Italian, he's too dark, he's too whatever, too Jersey, whatever. And then I did Barry Mann, who is also a Northeast City musician, but, you know, Jewish and erotic and funny. And then he's like, it's too funny, it's too light, it's too Jewish. It's like, dude, I can't, whatever you do, you can't win, because everyone just assumes that that's the thing that whatever the last thing you did, that's what you are. And that's, you know, that's just a reality that you often have to deal with, if you're not, you know, Brad Pitt.

[32:41] Alan Seales: Right, which neither of us are.

[32:43] Jarrod Spector: Right. Yeah, so beautiful, beautiful musical, Barry Mann, Jersey Boys, Frankie Valli, now Sonny Bono in The Cher Show. How did you get connected with Cher Show? How did you get this role?

[32:52] Jarrod Spector: So about three, a little over three years ago, my wife Kelly Barrett and I did a show at 54 Below about musical married couples. It was while I was in Beautiful, because, you know, we were listening to Carole King and her, you know, and the story of her and Jerry Goff and her ex-husband, and Barry Mann, who I played, and his wife Cynthia Weil, who are still together. And it was this wonderful like, oh, they made it, but they didn't. And so we looked at all these other couples, and we sort of did a whole show about it. And of course, Sonny and Cher. And so I listened, my wife is, we're very thorough. And we watched, of course, every single possible episode of the Sonny and Cher comedy hour. Yeah.

So every, every one of their openings, where they come in, do a little song, and then they do their little spiel with their dialogue, and they're very specific rhythms and cadences, and they're, you know, they're dynamic. And then they end with a song. And so we watched all of them. And then a year later, I got a call from my agent that I had an offer to do a reading of a new musical about Cher. The writer was Rick Ellis, who was the same writer of Jersey Boys. That's how, in my mind, I'm assuming, I was, you know, I was brought into this project. And then, you know, when you when you're in a project like that, from the beginning, and it's a reading, your audition for all intents and purposes is the reading itself.

So thankfully, I was okayed at the end of those couple of weeks by Cher herself, and I was able to stay with the project going forward. But that's how I got into it. But it was great, because when I first got the, when I first got the offer, I was like, man, I've done so much of this work already, just kind of for fun. And so now here we are, like, oh, you know, I got the script, and I was kind of ready to go.

[34:21] Alan Seales: So you met Cher for the first time during the readings?

[34:24] Jarrod Spector: I didn't meet her. She, okay, so we did this reading. You know, it's just, you know, normal stuff at music stands in a rehearsal room, just a piano and a drum set. At the end of the two weeks, we did a presentation. And the whole purpose of it was to do for Cher. But you know, Cher is very specific, she needs very specific circumstances. You know, as someone who's not of the theater world, I think what our, our lead team did something very smart, which is they put it in an actual theater, even that part, even something as basic as a reading, they did in a theater on at the Duke Theater on 42nd. So it was in a theater proper with lights, and you know, and stadium seating, and she sat all the way in the back.

They snuck her in just before we started with, you know, she had glasses on and the hat, she's surrounded by her people, and she literally underneath the spotlight, so we couldn't see her at all. And at the end of it, they whisked her out, right, you know, just as we just as we had finished. And then later, you know, within a day or two, I got the call that that she actually had liked it. And you know, and that then it was going to move forward. And they gave me some preliminary dates of what was gonna happen. But I didn't actually meet her for, you know, a while, because a year and a half later in Chicago is when I actually met her.

[35:34] Alan Seales: When? So Chicago was last summer?

[35:35] Jarrod Spector: Yes, this past summer. Yeah.

[35:38] Alan Seales: So you were workshopping, you did the reading, what? In January 2017.

[35:39] Jarrod Spector: 17. Yeah. So this actually got to Broadway relatively quickly.

[35:42] Jarrod Spector: Yeah, I mean, in terms of when they started doing this kind of proper work, I mean, I know one of our producers, Flody Suarez has been working on this for many, many years trying to actually make it happen. But from the moment we did the first reading to now, actually, yeah, that's that's pretty quick.

[35:56] Alan Seales: Wow. And Cher, I think, is famously known for being very critical of her own work. And especially of the show, you know, she was there, I think there was an article saying that she was not happy with the preview. But the show came out extremely well. I loved it.

[36:13] Jarrod Spector: Oh, good. Oh, thank you.

[36:15] Alan Seales: Absolutely loved it. When you started singing, all the all the people around me were like, what, what the hell? What's going on? This guy? He is Sonny Bono. It was incredible. Like the murmurs that that's that peripheral proliferated throughout the audience when you started singing the first time was incredible. I love it.

[36:33] Jarrod Spector: But the greatest review, I think you know what I'm getting into, a tweet from Cher herself.

[36:37] Alan Seales: Oh yeah. Do you remember this?

[36:39] Jarrod Spector: Yeah. No, this will sound strange, but because we all worked so hard to bring him back for the play, he doesn't seem gone. Our life is there on stage. From the first second I saw him, it can make me cry, but it can also make me so happy. Jarrod Spector is so like him, all caps, hard to explain, I can see him. How did that make you feel when you read that?

[36:58] Jarrod Spector: You know, that was on the anniversary of his death. And when, yeah, when she wrote it, I mean, I remember I was like, you know, scrolling on Twitter and I follow Cher because she's hilarious and awesome. And I, like, stopped in the middle of, I was like, I mean, I was sitting with my wife and I'm like, babe, I didn't read it, I was like, you're not going to believe what it says. You have to look at this. And it was, you know, it was very surreal because we actually had just met Chaz the day before. No, that day, we had met Chaz that day because he came on the anniversary of Sonny's death. I'm not even sure if that was intentional or just he, that's just happened to be the day that he was in town.

But he saw it and then, you know, she wrote that tweet and it was all happened very quickly. And she's been really wonderful to me since I've met her in the moment. You know, she walked into a room, a rehearsal room in Chicago with the whole company and, you know, she's Cher, you know, she's just got this thing. I mean, you know, sometimes you meet a celebrity and you don't quite understand why they're famous. But she's not that person. She is, you sort of get it right away that she's got whatever that thing is, she's got it. And she sort of, she changes the molecules, she changes the energy. And, you know, it doesn't hurt that she's always like dressed like a badass and she's amazing. But she hugged all of us and she hugged me and she pointed me at you, Sonny, and we held each other.

And, you know, she hasn't seen Sonny in 20 years. And this is one of the most impactful people in her whole, in the entirety of her life. And so to represent that in some very small way for them, for her, is an honor that I, you know, that I cherish and take very seriously.

[38:36] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[38:36] Jarrod Spector: I hope she likes it because everyone, whenever anyone asks me what to see, I'm like, Cher show, The Prom, I go down my list. But yeah, it's incredible. I love the show. Thank you. And that moment's really cool. I mean, it's really, it's well set up. And it's a very, it's, I was going to, I always say it's a Rick Ellis special because he and Marshall Brickman who wrote Jersey Boys did the same thing in that show. I feel like you wait like 40 minutes to hear Cherie. And by the time those chords come in, everyone's going bananas. And by the time you hear Cherie, you know, everyone just goes crazy. And this is kind of the same thing. You want to hear I Got You, Babe. If you're going to see a musical about Cher, you've got to hear I Got You, Babe.

And then by the time it comes and everyone just can't wait for it, I think they just, they want to jump in and they want to be on board that we are Sonny and Cher in that moment for the very first time that they sang it on TV and the top of the Pops.

[39:24] Alan Seales: Yeah. And some of the costumes are actually Sonny's actual shirts, right?

[39:28] Jarrod Spector: Yeah. They gave, I, yeah, I, we had, there was sort of a hole in my wardrobe. They had added, you know, as things get tweaked and they were like, okay, we need a new costume. We need a new shirt here. And our, you know, inimitable Bob Mackie did the thing that he does that he, that only he would be able to do, which is be like, you know what, I'm going to call and have him send one of Sonny's shirts, which they did. And then sort of, you know, retrofitted on me because we're slightly different build. But, you know, they, they, it's amazing to wear his actual shirt. I have a little piece of Sonny on stage at night.

[39:56] Alan Seales: That's crazy. Do you, you know, with all your acting training, do you find that you're approaching roles like Frankie Valli and Sonny Bono and, you know, Barry Mann, like, oh, they're all real people. So, but you're originating a role on Broadway based on real people. So, do you get trained for that? Or how does that process kind of differ from a standard character?

[40:20] Jarrod Spector: Well, I mean, I think, you know, the beginnings of it are always the same, right? It's like, you look at the script and you break it down, you know, however you, if you're, you know, Joseph Campbell and you're like, okay, what is the, you know, who is the protagonist and where does the hero's journey and all that stuff? And where, how do I fit? Am I the antagonist protagonist? Am I neither? Am I both? Am I some combination of whatever? And then it's the next step is like making character choices is where this really is hugely important because a lot of those decisions are made for you. You know, you can't decide, okay, it's Sonny Bono. So I'm going to, I'm going to play him with a British accent.

Like, you know, that's not, that's not an option. He is a real person that people are going to come to the theater and they have certain expectation. So a lot of your, especially external character choices are made for you. And then the more you research the person like him, you find out things about him and then Cher tells you little things about him. You know, I remember she said something like, I don't know if he'd love every minute of the show, but I know he'd be so happy to be represented up there. And to me, that's very character revelatory, right? I mean, that's, that's something about him that you can say, okay, I, I sort of, I'm a little closer to understanding that person. And that sort of then informs tactical choices and the way that he feels about certain things.

I mean, there's a line in the show that's pulled directly from her eulogy. That's Sonny had the confidence to be the butt of the joke because he created the joke. Now that again, that is so specific. I mean, I know I do not have that kind of confidence. I talk about this line a lot because I think it's the thing that is, this is the crux of this guy that he would, that he knew what to do. He knew like how to make things work and he didn't care, even if it was humiliating on some level to go out on stage in front of the entire world with your wife, your goddess warrior, rockstar beauty wife, who's going to make fun of your height and your ethnicity and your mother and your mustache and your, and your garlic, but like every single week, I don't know who would want to do that, but he did.

He knew that it was going to work and it did. And so he kept doing it. So those kinds of things then go into the way that I, for me, analyze scenes and make choices. And then of course, look, people are coming in and especially if it's someone as visually and orally famous as Frankie Valli, Sonny Bono, you have to fulfill the audience's expectations of who that is. I mean, at least to a certain extent, there are moments in the show when I, that I knew had to be nailed. And I Got You Babe is one of them, right? I mean, he has to come, he has to sound like, if it didn't sound, it doesn't sound like the record, it's, you know, the whole moment is lost. So there were a couple of moments in the show that I was like, okay, you have to be able to get that.

And there was something about, my wife really helped me with this too, is I'm, you know, I'm a sort of forward-leaning, high-energy, Northeast Jew. And Sonny Bono is a very laid-back, Southern California, born in the Midwest, Italian guy. And we just, our bodies are different and our tempos are different and the way we hold ourselves and carry ourselves. So finding that was a whole other thing too. And again, if it weren't, it's a very, let's say Sonny was fictitious, it's a totally legitimate choice to do him the way he actually is in real life. Or maybe it's totally fair to do him the, you know, to have his energy be very much like mine or something entirely different, but because he's real, you have to do that with his very noodley arms and the way he sits, and the way he sits back and the way, you know, he, the way he moves, the way he speaks, and he's just got a slightly slower tempo than me and all that stuff has to, has to be in there.

You know, and it's the same with Frankie Valli. You can't be like, I'm going to play Frankie, but like, you know, with a limp, you know, that's not a thing. You have to do him the way he is because the audience comes in and they want to hear Sherry and can't take my eyes off of you with that cry and that rock growl and that ear piercing glass shattering falsetto that he has. And if you don't, if you can't do those things and you're not doing, you're not only not doing the show justice, but you're not doing this very real person justice who is alive in that particular case and is going to come and tell you, you don't sound like me.

[44:22] Alan Seales: Gosh, I want to keep talking to you for so long, but you have to get to a show here. We're running short on time. So, I want to plug real quick. You've got a show coming up on April 15th at Sony Hall, yeah?

[44:28] Jarrod Spector: Yes. Called Con Artist.

[44:33] Alan Seales: Yeah. So, where can we get tickets for that?

[44:38] Jarrod Spector: Oh, I think if you just go to Sony Hall, the Sony Hall's website, and you know, you can go to any of my social media pages on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, and I have links for tickets on all of them.

[44:50] Jarrod Spector: Oh, great. And yeah, and this show is basically a lot about what we're talking about. You know, I've been trained to imitate people since I was a kid. My parents had me playing, pretending to be Bobby Darin on Star Search when I was six. And they also wanted me to be Barry Manilow because that was their favorite singer. And then, you know, I got a little older and I wanted to be Billy Joel. And I, you know, I mean, I've always, my whole life is just, I've just been trying to be these other people, you know, whether I cast myself in them or my parents or, you know, an actual person on Broadway.

[45:16] Alan Seales: Great. Well, I hope I'll see you on the 15th, April 15th. So, we have three questions here that I always ask people. Closing standards. Very simply, what motivates you?

[45:27] Jarrod Spector: My wife. Doing the best work that I can to make her proud, truly. Wow, I didn't even think that just actually just came out, but it really is true. I think she's like the most talented person I've ever known, and she has really high standards. And if I can do good work, if I can do work that she thinks is good, then I know I'm doing it right.

[45:44] Alan Seales: That's great. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[45:49] Jarrod Spector: Oh, yeah. I would say that if it's easy to follow, oh goodness, you know, it's, I'm always conflicted because people ask this, right? What do you tell yourself? What would you tell my kid who wants to be on Broadway? My kid wants to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and I'd be a hypocrite if I said, well, make sure they finish school because I didn't, but make sure they finish school. I mean, make sure you get an education in some capacity. I guess I could have told myself to maybe go to NYU or go to an acting program instead of to Princeton and try to pretend I'm somebody that I'm not. Because you can always make a career change, but at least I would have maybe enjoyed my life a little more if I had been indulging in the thing that I had in my heart.

It's a really difficult business. It's a really difficult life even when you meet with success. So it's, you know, create your own work and find a way to have that emotional armor. Find a way to have, to create self-worth and self-love outside of other people's approval, which usually means success in terms of being cast in things because God, there are endless reasons why you won't get a role. Endless. And the reason you do get a role might be also completely out of your control. So letting your heart and your emotional well-being depend on that is not healthy. So finding a way to be happy outside of this industry, outside of even if it's your primary career, is critical.

[47:18] Alan Seales: I love that. And last question here, if you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you could see it as many times as you want, what show would you see?

[47:22] Jarrod Spector: Hamilton.

[47:27] Alan Seales: That's two for Hamilton.

[47:28] Jarrod Spector: I'm sorry. Yeah, I can't. It really does everything. I mean, there are lots of shows that I could say. I think my parents would probably say Les Miserables, and not just because I was in it, but that's just so sad for so long. Hamilton is fun and exciting, and then it's sad, and it's emotional, and it's cathartic, and the music's badass. I know, I just, that might be trite, but I can't think of something I'd want to see more.

[47:47] Alan Seales: There you go. I agree. Okay, so we can find you on Twitter and Instagram at Jared Spector and facebook.com slash jared.spector. And of course, your solo records, Minor Fall and Major Lifted, a little help from my friends are both out. You have your con artist show coming up and Sony Hall April 15th. Get your tickets now. If you want more of me in the theater podcast, you can find me theater underscore podcast, also on Instagram and Twitter, facebook.com slash official theater podcast. You can write me feedback at the theater podcast.com.

[48:17] Jarrod Spector: Write a feedback.

[48:18] Alan Seales: Yeah, give me some feedback. Rate, review, share the word, share the podcast. This is produced by Jillian Hockman, and of course, the music you hear right now, Jukebox the Ghost, friends of ours that are giving us wonderful license to use this wonderful music. Thank you guys. And Jared, again, thank you. This has been so wonderful.

[48:35] Jarrod Spector: Oh, man. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.