This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alan Seales: I've got the eye of the tiger, a fighter, dancing through the fire, cause I am the champion, and you're gonna hear me roar. Louder, louder than a lion, cause I am the champion, and you're gonna hear me roar.

[0:26] Alan Seales: Hey everyone, welcome to The Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with the industry's biggest names. I'm your host, Alan Seales. This is the final episode of the Anne Juliet Broadway takeover. If you haven't already, go back and listen to the previous four episodes. It's other people casting creatives from Anne Juliet on Broadway, and now our guests are none other than Will Shakes and Anne Hathaway themselves, Betsy Wolfe and Stark Sands. Gosh, having them both together was such a really cool experience. Normally, as you know, if you're a long-time listener of the podcast, I prefer to have people individually, but sometimes it makes sense to have them together, and this was no exception to that, to have Betsy and Stark together to talk about the way that the two of them as Betsy and Stark, not Will and Anne, have come together and support each other and how they helped to build their characters.

And they both say in this interview that they wouldn't be who they were, their characters wouldn't be who they were without the support of each other in real life, and it just works, it works so well. And it was sort of ironic that right after we finished recording this episode, I saw someone online post that you're only as good as your scene partner, and I tend to believe that because, unless you're doing a monologue, I'll be, because these two exemplify that, and they help each other, they build on each other, their characters seem greater because of the work that they're doing for each other on stage, eight times a week, always giving, and it's just so much fun. So, as always, find me online, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, let me know you're listening.

I hope you enjoyed the Anne Juliet Broadway takeover. Again, this is episode five of five. Go listen to the previous four for all of the other content from this phenomenal show. Leave a rating and a review of this podcast wherever you are listening. Tell your friend and everybody. Now enjoy this episode with Betsy Wolfe and Stark Sands.

[2:42] Alan Seales: Today I bring you the final episode of our phenomenal Anne Juliet podcast takeover, which, Anne Juliet is one of my newest favorite musicals. Cannot stop telling everybody to go see this. In no particular order, I will introduce Betsy Wolfe first, who has Broadway credits that include Falsettos, Waitress, Bullets Over Broadway, and The Mystery of Edwin Drood, and, of course, her critically acclaimed performance as Kathy in the Off-Broadway revival of The Last Five Years, and starred in the 2020 film Estella Scrooge. Our other guest, Stark Sands, is a two-time Tony Award nominee and Grammy Award winner known for his role as Tunny in the original Broadway cast of American Idiot and originating Charlie Price in Kinky Boots.

Other Broadway credits include To Kill a Mockingbird and Journey's End, with additional TV credits that include Minority Report, Six Feet Under, and Together. They now co-star as the husband and wife duo Anne Hathaway and Will Shakes in the runaway hit Anne Juliet. Betsy and Stark, oh my gosh, gonna catch my breath. Welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[3:42] Betsy Wolfe: Thank you.

[3:43] Stark Sands: Runaway hit, is that true?

[3:45] Betsy Wolfe: It is in my mind.

[3:47] Stark Sands: I like the sound of that.

[3:49] Alan Seales: I think it's a runaway hit. I loved it, and I've seen it multiple times. I want to actually just quickly acknowledge, for those who haven't seen the show, Betsy, your character is the real-life wife of the real-life person Will Shakespeare. Your character, her real name was Anne Hathaway. I just want to get that out there. If we refer to Anne Hathaway, we are not referring to modern-day Anne Hathaway.

[4:15] Betsy Wolfe: But we love her as well.

[4:17] Stark Sands: We do, we do, but she was not—

[4:19] Betsy Wolfe: I have a fun nod to her in the show, which, of course, I don't want to put spoiler alert, but yes, her character, her name was actually Anne Hathaway, and that's about all we know about her, to be real.

[4:30] Alan Seales: I know, and I think it's funny because in the show, there's all these recurring callbacks, this joke that keeps going back to, like, well, we don't know much about her. So I just love the whole concept of Anne Juliet. It kind of reimagines sort of like smash the patriarchy kind of stuff, right? It's like Anne Hathaway's coming in, saying F you to Will, who's like rumored to maybe have these great same-sex relationships and other things, right? So there's all this stuff that is going on behind the scenes, and you just make it into this fun and presentable, just neat little bow. You put this little bow on it that's tied together by the phenomenal songs of Max Martin. And so I guess, Stark, since you haven't said much yet, let me say, Max Martin, for you, did you know about him in general? Because I just want to say one more thing, and then I will shut up, I promise, is that he has the most number one hits, second only to Paul McCartney.

[5:31] Stark Sands: And John Lennon.

[5:32] Alan Seales: And John Lennon, which everyone knows of The Beatles, but so few people know of Max Martin. So Stark, how did you know, what's your relationship with Max before Anne Juliet?

[5:40] Stark Sands: My awareness of Max was that he was the sort of brilliant mind behind the hits that I grew up with from Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, that camp. And I heard about him back then. I did not realize that he continued to write and produce songs all the way until this moment. I think there's an Ed Sheeran song that came out today that he co-wrote or produced.

[6:06] Betsy Wolfe: Yes, he has not stopped.

[6:08] Stark Sands: And so I knew when I heard the Max Martin musical, I thought, oh, well, that's appealing. That's going to have a lot of people that are excited about it. But I thought it was going to be all 90s songs. And I was so wrong because there are hits from five years ago in the show.

[6:25] Betsy Wolfe: Five years ago.

[6:26] Stark Sands: Yeah. So I kind of got to know him and know of him in the Katy Perry days, like when she started rising up and he wrote like some of her greatest hits, which you sing in the show, which are incredible. And so, like, Betsy, for you, too, is it the same for you? And I will say this for myself, that he kind of wrote the soundtrack of my teens and 20s and ended by 30s now, even.

[6:51] Betsy Wolfe: Yeah, I mean, I'm 42. I mean, if you just go through the songs in the show, I mean, I'm sure like most people, I can remember where I was, what year, maybe where, you know, what time in my life. Like I can mark time by these songs. And so it's just so satisfying to not only get to be able to sing songs that, you know, everyone knows, but to also just have them take on another life. That is, I truly believe equally and in some cases even more profoundly cool than, you know, even some of the way it was originally intended to be. And so much of that is obviously to the credit of Max and his songwriting abilities. Is he, you know, if you really break down these lyrics and then with the genius that is David West Reed, who then, you know, weaves them into the story, the book writer, the book writer.

Yeah, it's that combination that then is just like undeniably incredible. And that is so rare for a jukebox musical. It's just I've never seen it. And so, yeah, when I read the script and then was like, you've got to be kidding me. I just I knew right away this was just going to be epic. And I knew that I wanted to be a part of it. The appeal is really, really broad. It hits all lots of generations. We every day see much older people, people that are our age and people in their 20s and teens and, you know, under 10. And they're all enjoying it.

[8:28] Betsy Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason that, you know, Backstreet Boys and all these groups are still like you still hear their songs every single day all over the world. And I cannot imagine he's such a humble guy. And this is this is going to be the talk about Max Martin episode that he seems like he's such a quiet and like in the background kind of guy that I kind of that he walks around and everybody knows of him, but they don't know him. And it's complete anonymity in a totally famous way. And that's got to be the perfect lifestyle. You know what I mean?

[8:57] Stark Sands: I think so.

[8:59] Alan Seales: Betsy, you had mentioned when you first read the script, you knew you had to be in it. But when was that? Like, when did you get involved with Anne Juliet?

[9:06] Betsy Wolfe: I read the script pretty much October. It was it was near Halloween of twenty twenty one. And, yeah, my agent sent me the script. I read it and I said, this has to be my next show. And not only next show, but my first Broadway show in five years. And even at the time, I didn't know that it was definitely going to be on Broadway. But I again reading it, I just thought there's nowhere else this could be. It just it has to be this has to be a big Broadway show. And I just I fell in love with it. I fell in love with, obviously, the character of Anne Hathaway and and just the idea of the concept of the story of second chances. And, you know, we were we were just kind of coming out of the first, I'd say, stage of the next world beyond the COVID.

And it was like, what stories do we want to tell? How do I want to spend my time? I'm a, you know, as a new mom, what's what stories are worth putting, saying to my family, hey, we might have to go out of town for five months. What does this look like? And the reality is the show is it's genius. I can't I honestly think it is so geniusly written. And this idea that like things don't always go according to planned and and the way that they use Romeo and Juliet and the marriage of Anne Hathaway and William Shakespeare, one that we know, you know, kind of we know so much about Shakespeare, but we don't know about Anne. We know so much about Romeo, but we don't know so much about Juliet and the way that he empowers these female characters as well.

And so many different characters in this musical. It just was like, this is the story. And I think that's why this story also resonates with people, is because after what we've all been through, you leave the theater feeling hopeful about your own life, hopeful about the choices you might make differently. And, you know, it's your own user experience. But it just we see people on their feet every night and they're just it makes them feel something good. And, you know, who doesn't want to do that every night?

[11:18] Alan Seales: Right. I completely understand that. I think it's it's the perfect sort of lightning in a bottle sort of thing where you're taking, like you said, the great story, this classic story with a modern take with so much representation that is just desperately needed all across the industry in general. And then putting it together with these songs that not only invoke just happiness and happiness, like you said, in the current times that are songs released now, but also like the nostalgia of 10, 20, 30 years ago, because there's so much like we remember as children with what that joy feels like. And now you both you both have children and I have I have two kids. And like so now starting to relive all of these moments that these songs, especially the ones for my teens and 20s. Right.

These songs are coming back to me and I'm like, oh, God, yeah, I do remember that time. Like, Betsy, like what you're saying, I do remember that. And now giving that moment back to the young generation, especially our kids. Like, do you think about that at all when when you're on stage or at the stage door, you have these kids coming up to you telling you how much they love it?

[12:26] Betsy Wolfe: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you can speak to this even more, too, because I know your kids have gotten to come. But my daughter actually just came for the first time and saw the last 20 minutes of the show. And I remember that night I even screwed up my line because I was just so I was just like I could see her at the back of the house. And it was like the most special moment for me, you know, and and just it also reminds me of, you know, the sacrifice of what we do. But also just the fact that the ultimately the reason why I wanted to do this was because I know that she will know someday that this is a story that I chose to tell. And I hope that she will be so proud of that. But Stark and I are the only parents in the show. So it's fascinating, which is why I think, too, like I just, you know, we rely on each other so much. And it was just an instant bond of like, oh my God, I can't believe we're young parents and doing this.

[13:20] Stark Sands: Yeah, this is a very different task doing a Broadway musical with kids than it was without this.

[13:29] Betsy Wolfe: Oh man. I had no idea.

[13:32] Stark Sands: I mean, it's just so. So my my son is seven. My daughter is four. They have seen the show four times already and they love it. You know, they they don't have a connection to the music because they are so young. But now, like the other day, my daughter went to a birthday party and it was a dance party. It was a dark party, like a glow in the dark party where they all make glow in the dark like shirts. And then they danced around to a playlist that was chosen by the birthday girl. And one of the songs was "Can't Stop the Feeling." Got that sunshine in my pocket. I got that good soul in my feet. I feel that hot blood in my body when it drops.

[14:33] Stark Sands: And so my daughter was like, Dad, they played your song.

[14:40] Betsy Wolfe: And did you say yes? Yes, they did. I said, I don't know if it was my version of the song. I don't know if it was my version of the song. But they, yeah, I definitely feel the stage door experience coming out. I remember being one of those kids. And Betsy, I think you were, too. I remember waiting at the stage door when I was a teenager for the, you know, for the actors to come out to meet them and say hi to them and sort of geek out. And so there's a real full circle moment that happens every night when we have large groups of kids, which happens more and more right now. And I mean, kids like middle school, high school, they are fervent in their love, in their response to the show. It's pretty special.

[15:22] Alan Seales: I want to get to you said being a kid in the stage door. I'm going to ask both of you, like what got you into theater in a second. But real quick, I saw that Katy Perry actually came to see the show the other night. Right? So do you know that you're singing that these people are in the audience and before or do Betsy doesn't want to know?

[15:33] Betsy Wolfe: I want to know. I love knowing.

[15:44] Stark Sands: But then Betsy plays this whole game where she's like, well, OK, I know it's funny from the show. I know I know somebody who's from our album. So it's got to be either, you know, Jessie J or maybe, oh, good. Could be Katy Perry. And I'm like, do you want me to just tell you? No, no, I don't want to know to be this super fun game to try and guess. But actually, to be fair, I don't usually like to know. But then all of a sudden we knew it was someone like, you know, really, really, really, really special. And not only special, everyone special, but like to the production special. At one point in time, I said, OK, Stark, I don't see anyone out there. And Stark said, this person is so famous, they need to be sequestered.

So then I immediately knew, like, you know, look up to one of the boxes. And sure enough, I laid eyes on her somewhere. And it's my life somewhere toward the end of Act One. And I just had this moment of like, gosh, this is cool. What is this life? It's just it's really, really cool.

[16:42] Stark Sands: You two are performing a rock concert to Katy Perry, right?

[16:46] Betsy Wolfe: Yeah, no pressure.

[16:47] Stark Sands: No pressure. No pressure at all. Has there like did she come up after the show and she was like, so that was pretty OK? Like, you know, I got a couple of notes for you.

[16:55] Betsy Wolfe: She's very she was effusive in her love for the show and her love for the performances. Betsy's in particular, she was a big fan of Miss Betsy Wolfe, as we all are. And rightfully so. She's got a connection to this music, obviously, to Max and her like the anthem of our show is Roar. And that's her song. She feels proud in a way that she can in her in the way that she can. I can imagine she's just she she is actually magnetic, too. I can see why she is such a insanely amazing superstar. I mean, she is effervescent. She just kind of glows as she walks about. It was incredible. It was very special.

[17:35] Stark Sands: Have you lost? Yeah. Oh, well, shall you tell him who else is coming? So in terms of the singers we've had from the Max Martin world, Chris Martin from Coldplay was at our opening night. Simon Cowell was at our opening night. It's not a singer, but in the music business, J.C. Chazet from NSYNC. We have an NSYNC song in the show. J.C. was there. I think that a lot of them have gone to see the London version. Maybe in a couple of months, maybe we'll have some more people sort of coming through the doors to enjoy the show. Will Ferrell has seen the show twice. A super fan, super fan. And that's if you haven't seen the show as many times as well. It is it is, you know, if whenever you're in a Broadway show, there are always famous people who come to see it and you meet them backstage. And that's a thing. But it's very interesting to. For the singers of the songs that you're singing, that's a new experience for me, right?

[18:36] Betsy Wolfe: Right. And that's why I brought that up, because I think for them, it's it's got to be so weird in a good way. Like for Katy Perry to see, like, oh, my song that that I helped put on the map is the anthem of the show that's changing so many lives. And the instincts and like the whole the running gag of Dubois band and all these other things. Right. That are that are just part of our society and American pop music especially has influenced influenced the world. Right. I go when we travel all over the place, you're hearing these songs all the time and to package it all up. It's just brilliant, Martin, who's like literally created pop in a way. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. The Swedes, man.

[19:24] Stark Sands: So we expect so good. So cool. All right. So, Betsy, were you were you a stage door girl? Like what got you into wanting to perform, wanting to sing, wanting to be on stage?

[19:35] Betsy Wolfe: OK, full confession. So when I was 15, I came to New York City for the first time with my family. And actually, I've been reliving this a lot lately because I happened to go to the 25th anniversary ragtime reunion concert last night. And I did this whole kind of what started out as a silly campaign. And it's because it was ragtime was one of my first shows that I ever actually not only saw, but more importantly, for a year and a half before coming to New York would sit and listen to it in my bedroom. I would listen to it in the car being driven to school. And it was the first time that I listened to something, a soundtrack. And then the first time I actually saw that very soundtrack on stage.

And it was a I can't even I just like I teared up last night. I can't even describe what that's like to think about who I was at age 15 and what that meant to me to see my first Broadway show. I did stage door. I went back and I stood there and took a picture with Brian Stokes Mitchell. And I even went and saw Chicago the next night and tried to get a picture with B.D. Neuwirth. And she said, I only take pictures with kids. And I snarkily said, well, I am under 18. So technically, I am a child. And I have that photo not looking quite so happy, but also like, you know, caught truth. And so last night, actually, at the ragtime concert, I was just chatting with, you know, just casually chatting with Brian Stokes Mitchell afterward.

And I showed him the picture and said, can we recreate this? And I say this all just because you forget how impactful a small moment like that can be. So every night, even if I'm, you know, had a rough day or whatever, I'm tired. I'm a mom, whatever it is. Right. Because sometimes a job is a job. And every night, though, I think about the fact that like there could be a kid out there who's seeing a Broadway show for their first time and how that changed the trajectory of my life. And so it is really, really easy to just have that like moment of gratitude and excitement, because I remember what it was like for me.

[21:53] Alan Seales: Wow. And then so let's see. Just you grew up in California and so you actually went to CCM, right?

[22:02] Betsy Wolfe: Yeah. My whole, you know, one to 18, California and then went to Cincinnati, you know, where you said that's what the normal stopover right before New York. Everyone goes to Ohio and Michigan.

[22:14] Stark Sands: Michigan made my way, got used to some snow a little bit and then made my way to New York almost right after that.

[22:22] Betsy Wolfe: Yeah. And one of my first professional jobs.

[22:25] Stark Sands: What is this like a ragtime series, Betsy?

[22:28] Betsy Wolfe: One of my first professional jobs, though, was actually being in in ragtime. So it's like this like part full circle moment.

[22:35] Stark Sands: Well, there are shows, I think, that are going to last forever and ragtime being one of them. And I think, Andrew, that will be will be another one. It's just these things that talk, talk to your souls. Right. And touch you in a way that, like I said, it multigenerational. The message is there, et cetera, et cetera. You know, we can harp on this forever because it's amazing. But, OK, Stark, you're a stage door man, stage door boy with a little Stark. Where did that where did your love for for performing come from?

[23:04] Stark Sands: I was lucky to travel a lot as a kid with my family and we came to New York. I saw Starlight Express in 1984. Eighty five, I think, is my first Broadway musical to witness. And it was obviously, you know, for a kid, it's just incredible. It didn't start out for me with people like walking around on stage. They were on roller skates and skating around, you know, behind you and above you. And in these amazing, you know, very 80s, you know, Andrew Webber, like costumes. And it was great. We staged toward that. I saw Phantom of the Opera in London shortly after that. I saw Les Mis like these. These have all been my favorite musical. After I saw them, I would get obsessed with each of them. And then when I was in high school, I had a VHS.

One of my friends had a VHS tape of Pippin. It must have been a bootleg or something, but it was like the Ben Vereen Pippin. And it was VHS and it was grainy. And that for me was like, oh, wow, that that was then my favorite. I went to college at USC. I studied acting. I got my BFA and a full circle moment for me was my freshman year. My freshman year, I took a class about the American musical. And one of the ones that we studied was Ragtime, because it was pretty recent. And, you know, this is it was 97. I was a freshman and so it was pretty recent. And so I remember studying Ragtime and then getting into the album like Betsy did. And then however many years later, I'm in New York. I'm like working as an actor and I get cast in a in Shakespeare in the Park into Twelfth Night.

And I'm cast opposite Audra McDonald. And we're like kissing on stage and that like that. And I had these I'm just thinking I studied you in college. And now I'm next to you on a stage in New York City under the stars. And I feel so grateful because I know that's probably the story for a lot of us who have made it to this level, is that we were that kid. And so, like Betsy says, when when I'm out there, I'm talking to these kids at the stage door. Like some of them are going to pursue this and and succeed. And maybe one day they will be kissing them.

[25:20] Betsy Wolfe: Yes, we'll be kissing them at Shakespeare in the Park.

[25:25] Stark Sands: No, it's true. It really it really is. It really is true. I grew up actually. So this is even stranger. So I'm going to I'm going to like let's just make this about Audra now. Audra grew up 40 minutes away from me. And so I actually watched her as a junior company member when she was on stage, when she was like younger Audra. And I watched her do shows there. Then she would come back and do these hometown concerts. And so I actually was like, oh, who does Audra study with? I want to study with her. So I actually took from Audra's voice teacher growing up. Amazing. And then I was doing Spelling Bee in Boston. That was my first professional gig. And I was hired for the the same as this company, the Boston company.

And I was like, I found out that Audra McDonald was going to be in one tin in the shade on Broadway. And I didn't tell my agents, didn't tell anybody. And I said on my day off, I'm going to drive to New York City, go in for an open call, an equity open call, sign up. So Monday morning I went as early as can. It was my first open call. Didn't tell my agents who probably were like, Betsy, why didn't you tell us? Maybe we could have gotten it. But I was so scared to tell anyone. First one to sign up actually ended up booking the job, which, by the way, my agents never quite acknowledged, which was really funny to me. They're like, yeah, and you got this job. And I was like, I don't want to tell you I got the job.

Technically, my Broadway debut in the ensemble with Audra McDonald. Right. You know, right there. Awesome. And so, yes, it's I sometimes do think of that when someone says, like, I love you so much at the stage door and they're an actor. I sometimes think I actually probably might share the stage with you someday. And how how cool is that?

[27:01] Betsy Wolfe: That reminds me of that that meme of Matt Damon, where it just ages all of a sudden real quick from like, oh, God, I'm now I'm old.

[27:10] Stark Sands: And it's like Stokes, right? Stokes has been around forever. He's an icon. And he doesn't look like he doesn't age. He's just a beautiful man. But like when you showed, does he remember you? Did he does he he's probably met so many people, but like, do you remember this kind of thing? Like when you showed him that picture, he was like, oh, yeah, I remember you. You made an impression on me. I was like, oh, just another kid.

[27:30] Betsy Wolfe: Well, no, I've I've worked with him. I worked with him in. Gosh, I want to say I did I did some I did a concert with him in 2005. So I've known him throughout the years. But what's funny is I had never showed him that photo. You know, he, of course, like was like, oh, my gosh, you have it in photo evidence. Geez, Louise, you know, because it's one thing to tell him a story like everyone has pictures with them. But it is cool to actually, you know, be a working professional and say, here you go. Look at us. And I looked crazy. So I got a really cute photo with him last night where I look normal. So I'm happy now.

[28:04] Stark Sands: Well, go ahead.

[28:07] Betsy Wolfe: No, no. I was just I was thinking, you know, I have remembered people at the stage door over the years, but it's usually the people who see things multiple times. And but it's always sweet whenever somebody pulls up a phone or a picture and says, hey, look, this is this is 10 years ago. And it's it it's meaningful, you know, that there's a dedication there. And, you know, it's you can't take it lightly. That's really cool.

[28:32] Alan Seales: This has been an episode of Full Circle Moments and Coincidences.

[28:37] Alan Seales: As we're recording this, my Up Here takeover, the new series on Hulu, just started. Yeah, Betsy, I see your eyebrows went up. So you appeared in the Up Here stage version with Robert and Kristen, because they created that a long time ago, back in 2015, right? So I sort of acknowledge that everything's coming around full circle here. That's how I met Bobby and Kristen and Alex Timbers. And that was all, you know, that was pre-Frozen. And that's, yeah, gosh, I loved that show. I loved it so much. It was so special. And so I'm just so excited that in some way, shape or form, it has another life. I cannot wait to watch it. I'm just going to binge it.

[29:20] Betsy Wolfe: It's so good.

[29:22] Alan Seales: And they're so super and funny. The soundtrack's out, too. So you can go to Spotify right now or wherever and binge everything. The music's out and it's incredible because it's, you know, the Lopez's. Anyway, it's such an incredible show. Oh, and then another full circle moment. Yeah, Betsy, you played Elsa in the lab of Disney's Frozen, the stage production, like all this. It just weaves in and out together so well.

[29:47] Betsy Wolfe: Yes. Yeah, that's how I met the whole team when Alex was still involved. I spent about a year, a year and some change developing that. And then at some point, you know, Alex took part of the project. And yeah, but it's just like this is the thing like I can't like I pinch myself when I think about like I got to work, you know, I get to work with these people and Kristen just came to see our show the other day and I finally got to tell her my daughter's like singing Frozen now. And it's like it's insane how time flies. And it's just it's also so meaningful to just think like I have I get to I get to just be in the same room with legends. It's like, what is this life?

[30:30] Alan Seales: Yeah, but you know what, though? I'm going to flip that because to many, many people, you two are also in that same category. Like, do you realize that? Because to them, right? Like, I realize I'm neighbors. I'm actually like smack in the middle in Brooklyn here between the Lopez's and Sonia Taya. But they're both my neighbors. And not it's just funny because I'm saying that to to to say like they think they're regular people. At least I think they think they're regular people. I assume you two think you're regular people, but to others, you two are the legends now, right? You're on stage and singing this and something. One thing I love about this business and the level of fame that you get from doing what we do is that you walk out of the you're standing on stage and you are the focus of everything.

You get this incredible applause and you walk out the stage door and you have lots of people that maybe are waiting to say hi to you and get your photo and take your picture. And then once you're done and you walk, you walk about 50 feet and you're totally anonymous, apart from the occasional person who sees you and smiles at you and their eyes go big like, oh, I love you in the show. It's like the perfect amount of fame. You just a regular person unless you're in like the sort of, you know, one square block of your theater. I feel like a regular person. I certainly am a regular person up here in my neighborhood in Westchester. I don't think of myself as anything but just a lucky guy who gets to sort of live his dream and do the thing that he wanted to do as a kid for a living.

[32:00] Betsy Wolfe: Well, I'm uber famous. I just got recognized buying a chai and someone said, Betsy, you made it to ragtime. So I don't know, Stark, like for you.

[32:05] Stark Sands: I set that one up for you.

[32:06] Betsy Wolfe: I just really can't go anywhere without, you know.

[32:13] Stark Sands: Oh, I'm just kidding. But the woman who said that when I was getting my chai, it really did mean the world.

[32:20] Betsy Wolfe: It's so much fun. I really, I can imagine that it's really interesting when you do get recognized because it's somebody who really who is so passionate because like you said, Stark, it's not like TV and movie famous is different from Broadway famous.

[32:39] Stark Sands: Yes.

[32:39] Betsy Wolfe: And in a good way. And when you do get recognized, though, for being Broadway famous, it's that person who truly like you have changed their life because they've gone above and beyond to see a show multiple times or they...

[32:51] Stark Sands: Well, it's niche. Like what you're saying, like, it's not like Katy Perry or Taylor Swift walking around. But so when someone does compliment you, you're like, oh, wow, you like know what I do. It takes a certain level of then interest. And it's, it's small enough to make you feel, you know, really, really seen. Yeah.

[33:12] Betsy Wolfe: And for the most part, you know, I don't I don't imagine that people that are fans of Broadway are going to go out of their way to walk up and tell you that they didn't like what you did.

[33:24] Stark Sands: So it's always positive.

[33:26] Betsy Wolfe: Well, I forgot. Oh, man, I wish I remember who this was. There was somebody the other day I was interviewing who was in a revival or something. This was months ago. And she said that somebody came up to her at the stage door and was like, you're OK, but I like the original better.

[33:42] Stark Sands: Oh, amazing.

[33:43] Betsy Wolfe: Oh my gosh. I love that for that person. I wish I knew. I just remember who that was. But what you're saying, Betsy, a second ago about, like, just these relationships and I believe it was Michael Urie who who gave me the advice once who said, be the person that everyone wants to work with the next time. And it sounds like you two, you know, you're the epitomes of that because you just continue and continue and Stark like your journey with Ann Juliet even started. It started with the out of town. Right. And then you did you didn't you go to West End and now you're on Broadway like you've traveled.

[34:14] Stark Sands: No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. I'm my journey started like not that long ago. I originally the project I was made aware of the project in November right after Betsy, you know, was was was approached. I didn't know that at the time because I passed on it. I passed on the audition because I had another job that was going to conflict with it or that that was going to line up right next to it. And it was also out of town. And I have my two small kids and I just couldn't imagine going away to, you know, to California for three months and then immediately going away to Toronto. So I was very lucky that they did not find the right person and they came back.

[35:05] Betsy Wolfe: Don't get me started on this journey of finding Shakespeare.

[35:06] Stark Sands: I up until like I want to say two weeks before we were starting, I got a cast list and then it still said Shakespeare, TBD. And I called and I was like, what is going on? Who is going to play? And I had had chemistry reads and I had seen I had done things with some dear friends in the business where I know that they were searching and searching and searching. And the reality is, is and I know Stark knows this. It's just like they it was worth the wait because he is perfect.

[35:26] Betsy Wolfe: You are perfect in this. You make my job easy. And I'm so grateful, too, because so much of what, you know, I do and what we do is based on the work that we do together. You know, this is not our first rodeo and we both know what it's like to when you, you know, it's so important what your costar is bringing to the table and and even importantly, what they're not bringing to the table. And so I just like lucked out. You were worth the wait. But the fact that you passed on this project just still cracks me up to this day.

[36:02] Stark Sands: It was for personal reasons. It wasn't because I didn't want to do it. And I'm just glad that when it did come back around, my wife and I, you know, we read it and we listened to the soundtrack and she was the one who said, you have to do this. You have to. This is too good. You have to do this. We'll make it work. And we have you know, she has she's made she's she's the reason I'm able to do this.

[36:22] Betsy Wolfe: Props to her for pushing you to do it because the show wouldn't be what it is without both of you exactly and what you're doing. So I think that's a wonderful place to wrap up with the three standard closing questions that I ask everybody to wrap up and you both will get to answer. We'll go back and forth and alternate. So flip a coin. There we go. All right, Betsy, we'll start with you. What motivates you?

[36:40] Betsy Wolfe: My daughter's face. Making making your smile here in that little kid giggle. Little kid giggles are the best. That's like it's the best part of my day.

[36:53] Stark Sands: I don't like being idle when the time comes where I don't have work. I hate it. And so when I do have work, it's gratitude for the work that motivates me. I'm so grateful. I know that this is finite. I know that this job will end and it'll end before I even realize it. So it's sort of gratitude for for the ability to do this and continue to do this.

[37:09] Betsy Wolfe: Beautiful. All right. So then, Stark, your turn next. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[37:20] Stark Sands: Stick with it. You know, make sure, you know, to be blunt, make sure that it's what you want to do and make sure that your reasons are pure and make sure that you want if you want to be a successful actor, that you have to love acting. You have to be ready to hear the word no many, many, many, many more times than the word yes. And if it is the thing that you love and that you want to do it, then stick with it and be persistent and work really hard and always be prepared.

[37:49] Betsy Wolfe: Cliché phrase, just trust your gut just comes up a lot. I can I can like mark like really specific times in my life where I knew what my gut was saying and either perhaps because of other reasons or other people said, no, I think this is important. I have just learned that your gut is right. It's there for a reason. And. And, yeah, be messy, just be messy. There's boring. Perfect is so boring. And so I love the people in my life that encourage me to just kind of step out of the box because it's what I did kind of out of that, like expected thing that I think makes me even more unique and actually is what makes me the most joyous. So I assume that perhaps if people just are kind of told, you know, just be messy for them, whatever that means for them, that'll make them that much more joyous in their work and make bold choices.

[38:48] Stark Sands: That's basically everything. Yep. Be different. Be the best you can be.

[38:51] Betsy Wolfe: Yeah, I hear that a lot. OK, so, Betsy, back to you. This is the hardest question. Now, if you could only see one show for the rest of your life, you can see it as many times as you want. What would you see?

[39:00] Betsy Wolfe: I sort of have an idea what you'll answer. One show, one show, one musical, one play, one show, one something on stage, whatever your heart desires.

[39:15] Betsy Wolfe: Oh, this is such a rude question. This is mean. OK, fine. You know what? It's going to be into the woods. Not ragtime. I love ragtime. I love ragtime with all of my heart. But if I have to see one, probably going to have to pick into the woods.

[39:28] Stark Sands: Oh, I wish everyone could see Stark's face right now. He's so in despair. So he's like, he's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. What is my answer? I'm just thinking, what is so much meaning? Look at him. He's still he's still going. Can I pick something that I was in because I never got to see it?

[39:45] Stark Sands: Of course, Kinky Boots. I would I would see Kinky Boots for the rest of my life.

[39:48] Betsy Wolfe: But with you in it or with us, it doesn't matter. Actually, that's one thing I learned about that show is that it doesn't matter who's in it. The show is bigger than any one person. And I did get to see it. I was there for closing night on Broadway, and then I went back and was there for opening night off Broadway. And both times I brought my son. And I was moved. And, you know, obviously, my connection to the show is very deep. And so it's kind of a cheat of an answer. But that's my answer at this moment.

[40:15] Stark Sands: It's not a cheat at all. If it speaks to you, it speaks to you.

[40:18] Betsy Wolfe: So it speaks to me. It speaks to a lot of people. That's the one show that more than anything, people say, I loved this show whenever I'm walking out of a stage door. And probably, you know, maybe and maybe and Juliet will surpass it at some point. But at the moment, that's the one.

[40:31] Alan Seales: Great, great. Well, where can we connect with with you on social media, Betsy?

[40:36] Betsy Wolfe: Mostly, I'm on Instagram these days, the wolf pack. And that's wolf with an E, please.

[40:44] Stark Sands: Yes, we'll say and then I occasionally do really ridiculous things on TikTok, but you can mostly find me on Instagram.

[40:50] Alan Seales: Gotcha. Stark.

[40:51] Stark Sands: My Instagram handle, though I do not use it very much, is at Stark weather, which is a nickname, a nickname that a friend gave me many, many years ago. And so it's there's no real, you know, there's no reason behind it other than somebody said it to me once.

[41:08] Alan Seales: You need like a like a what's Will Ferrell's character from Anchorman, Ron Swanson? You need to say no.

[41:12] Stark Sands: I'm Stark.

[41:13] Alan Seales: Ron Burgundy.

[41:16] Stark Sands: I'm Ron. I'm Stark weather.

[41:20] Alan Seales: There you go. Oh, and and Betsy, quick plug for Broadway Evolved, your musical theater training program.

[41:25] Betsy Wolfe: Oh my gosh. Thank you for mentioning that. I can't believe it. We're in our sixth summer and we already are full for June. This is like the heartbeat. My parents are both educators and I swore I would never do it. But then I just like I can't help but actually just say, yes, I want to I want to, you know, run a program. So if you're 14 to 18, check it out. It's really a special, special, special program.

[41:52] Alan Seales: Broadway Evolved dot com, right?

[41:54] Betsy Wolfe: Website, Broadway Evolved dot com, TikTok. We're like uber famous on TikTok, too. It's crazy.

[41:59] Alan Seales: Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you both so much. I love you both. You're incredible. You are legends to these people. Legends. Thank you.

[42:24] ♪ Musical number: "I Want It That Way" — performed by Betsy Wolfe & Stark Sands ♪