This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jose Llana: Hi, this is Jose Llana, and welcome to The Theatre Podcast with Alan Seales.

[0:10] Alan Seales: Hey, everyone. Welcome to an all-new episode of The Theatre Podcast with Alan Seales. I'm your host, Alan Seales, and our guest today is Jose Llana, who is currently in Here Lies Love on the Broadway stage in the Broadway theatre. Very meta, if you ask me. This episode turned into an incredibly deep history lesson. I had no clue because, I mean, we get into the reasons why typically a lot of people in America don't understand the international history that's going on in the Philippines or the things that are happening in the Philippines, whether it be history or current events, because history seems to be repeating itself. Jose is so passionate about his family and their past, and it's just all shown through the chat, and just the representation that he gets to bring to his heritage, to his family, and to what's going on, again, currently in the Philippines.

It's just incredible. Can't wait to share this episode. Find me online, Instagram. I think I've given up on Twitter, X, whatever. If you still need me there, let me know, but I think I'm done with it. So Instagram, TikTok, threads, hit me up, let me know that you're listening, and everybody now enjoy this episode with Jose Llana.

[1:24] Alan Seales: Today's guest has been gracing the Broadway stage now for over two decades, having appeared in both the 1996 and 2015 revivals of The King and I. He has also appeared in Rent, Street Corner Symphony, Flower Drum Song, Wonderland, Spelling Bee, which earned him a Drama Desk Award. TV and film credits include Sex and the City, Hitch, and Unconscious, and he can now be seen tearing up the dance floor on the Broadway stage again as President Marcos in Here Lies Love. Jose Llana, welcome to the theatre podcast.

[1:59] Jose Llana: Thank you for having me.

[2:01] Alan Seales: So on these episodes, I often will get into what I will call the basic information of like, where did you grow up? What got you into theater and all this stuff? But the where did you grow up is taking us straight into, I think, a much deeper conversation. So let's kind of start with that, and I'll let you set the stage, no pun intended, as to how that all began.

[2:28] Jose Llana: Okay. Well, I was born in the Philippines. I was born, my older sister and I were born in the mid-70s in the Philippines and during martial law. And it became very clear to my parents, who were hot-blooded activists against martial law, that it was not a great place to raise their kids. So they tried very hard to find jobs in America. My mom found one first, and we moved to New York City in '79. And then a year later, we moved to Virginia. So I grew up in a suburb of Washington, D.C., and that's where I grew up.

[3:05] Alan Seales: Like Fairfax area?

[3:08] Jose Llana: Yeah, Fairfax County, exactly. Springfield, Virginia. Springfield, Virginia is where I grew up. And I'm a product of the public school system of Northern Virginia, very proudly. I went to a math and science high school, magnet school, T.J., Thomas Jefferson High School. And then I made my way to New York City.

[3:26] Alan Seales: So math and science high school automatically means you're good at singing and dancing and acting, right?

[3:30] Jose Llana: Of course. Of course. Actually, I always say I lucked out. My senior year in high school, in particular, math in particular is very connected to music. People who are good at math, music makes sense. There's a lot of rules, and there's a lot of connection between music and science, to be honest. But I benefited greatly that my sister was older than me, and she did everything right. She went to all the engineering schools. She got a full scholarship at MIT and became a badass engineer.

[4:06] Alan Seales: Which allowed her little brother to be the artist in the family.

[4:11] Jose Llana: Like, we got one. The other one could do what they want.

[4:13] Alan Seales: Absolutely. And I always say, if my sister and I were born in different orders, I'd be the engineer and she'd be on Broadway singing and dancing.

[4:20] Alan Seales: Did she ever have any desire, inclination to follow that path either?

[4:24] Jose Llana: You know, it's weird. I know that sometimes, you know, like whenever she sees my shows, I mean, she's the most supportive sister on the planet. She'll always want to talk about the dancers. You know, she was a dancer in high school. And, you know, and who knows, but like I said, it's hard to even say, like, how different would I be if I were born first, and I had the weight of responsibility that immigrant parents place on the first born child. And my sister got all that, and I was given free reign to do whatever I wanted. So, it's the privilege of the younger siblings that get to be the artists.

[4:59] Jose Llana: Yeah, my younger brother, he got to get away with everything. I always joke around that I broke in my parents from my brother.

[5:06] Alan Seales: Absolutely. It's actually very true.

[5:08] Jose Llana: Yeah, because by the time he got caught sneaking in late at night, they were like, okay, this is what kids do. That's fine.

[5:17] Alan Seales: But at what point, though, I mean, obviously, there's a very strong tie over between math and music and dancing, because it's, you know, it's rhythm and counts and things like this. But at what point were you, was there a touchstone or a moment when you're like, I'm going to try to do this professionally, I want to keep going? Or was it like just accepting opportunity after opportunity?

[5:41] Jose Llana: You know, I mean, I think I'm the typical story of, well, not, I don't want to say typical, but like, the Filipinos are born with a karaoke mic in their hands. You know, everyone sings at gatherings. Everyone is a singer, you know, and so I grew up singing just like, and my dad, I grew up listening to my dad sing with his guitar in the living room every Saturday and Sunday morning on the weekends. And then the karaoke machines would come out during family gatherings and Filipino gatherings. And then in high school, really, in middle school, I discovered musical theater, I discovered Broadway. And there was kind of no turning back at that point. And I think a major, and you can't understate the importance of Lea Salonga winning the Tony Award for Miss Saigon in 1990.

I was a, I was, actually, when did she win, '89, '90? I was in middle school, high school during that time, you know, and I was just beginning to get obsessed with musical theater. I was obsessed with Les Mis, I was obsessed with Miss Saigon. And to watch Lea Salonga win this award, it propelled a lot of people like myself, who are Filipinos, to go, maybe I can go to New York. And one of my goals was to get into Miss Saigon. And the fact that I never got into Miss Saigon is, and that other shows happened first. But I think that was definitely a touchstone. And then I, you know, 10 years later, I would end up working with Lea, and now working with Lea again, and Here Lies Love. So I think you can't understate how important it was that Lea Salonga put Filipinos on kind of the global map at that point, in terms of singers.

And I very much came to New York with that kind of inspiration. And I think, you know, I got very lucky. I came into New York City at a time when rock and roll and contemporary musical theater was beginning to hit. And I think, the fact that my career has kind of bounced between legit theater and rock theater, and it was just the music that I grew up with, and I was able to straddle both, kind of, in the beginning of my career, sort of gave me a versatility that was really helpful in auditioning. Like, I could go from The King and I to go do Rent, back to Flower Drum Song, and then Wonderland, you know. So it's, I think, and Street Corner Symphony was like a Motown review. So, I mean, I just tried to sing whatever was put in front of me.

[8:08] Alan Seales: That's fascinating. And I didn't ultimately realize how strong the connection was between the Filipino culture and karaoke until actually it was mentioned in Here Lies Love, right?

[8:21] Jose Llana: Absolutely.

[8:21] Alan Seales: Which is kind of the basis behind the whole set design in the first place.

[8:25] Jose Llana: Absolutely. You know, it's weird. Like, growing up as a Filipino, you know, you don't think about it, because it's just a fact. Everyone sings. Everyone, the karaoke machine is there at every party. And it's not even, there's a level of showing off, like, who are the better singers? And every family always has, like, their best singers, and every family has, like, the shame of, like, Uncle Roy can't sing, you know? There's that shame, right? But I remembered being a little kid and being annoyed that my uncles were stealing all the good cassette tapes with all the boys, with all the male songs. And they wouldn't let the kids have them. And so I remember, like, the first couple of songs I sang in karaoke were, like, Whitney Houston songs, because they weren't any boy songs left, because all my uncles were saving it for themselves. No, I mean, I think karaoke, well, first of all, I grew up with calling it minus one. A lot of Filipinos call it minus one, as opposed to karaoke.

[9:26] Alan Seales: I've never heard that.

[9:26] Jose Llana: Yeah, minus one, you would buy minus one cassette tapes, and it meant it was minus one track. You minus the vocal track.

[9:34] Alan Seales: Minus the singer, yeah.

[9:35] Jose Llana: Yeah, so you might. And so I grew up singing minus one. And then even by the time I got to high school, people were like, you guys do a lot of karaoke. I'm like, what's karaoke? You know, Filipinos, a lot of Filipinos, I grew up with it, we call it minus one. And so it makes sense. You know, those books that give advice to international business people. It's like, in Japan, you hand your business card like this, and you present it. And in certain different countries, you have to go by their traditions and their cultures. The business advice usually is, if you are doing business in the Philippines, you will eventually be asked to go to dinner and then the karaoke machine will come out. Do not refuse to sing, or else you will be seen as someone who is conceited.

[10:26] Alan Seales: Wow.

[10:28] Jose Llana: And that's kind of true. It's like, when people pass around the karaoke, like, all right, everyone sing something. And I think that's a part of the culture of it. No one makes a fool of themselves. If you do, then it's okay. That means we're all going to make fun of each other. And there's a beautiful familial feeling about that. And if you're nervous about singing, it's okay, get over it. And we're all going to feel silly. You know, and I think that's a beautiful part of the culture.

[10:54] Alan Seales: Do you have a go to karaoke song where it's like someone throws the mic at you, now everything's digital at your fingertips. You're like, all right, call up such and such from this.

[11:02] Jose Llana: You know, it's funny, Filipinos, we're never caught off guard when they ask, what's your go to karaoke song? I have like three. Depending on different decades of my life, you know, and people always keep that song in the back of their head that they know that they can whip out and get the crowd going. And depending on the crowd, it's like, I don't want to show off. How about a fun song to pick everybody up? You got to build it up a little bit. So what do you start with? Like, energy's kind of medium. Everyone's a little, this is America. So everyone is a little bit trepidatious. They're embarrassed. So how do you get it going? What do you go to?

[11:35] Jose Llana: Well, I always go to like my middle school and high school songs. I always go to like George Michael, Freedom 90, or Bell Biv DeVoe's Poison. You know what I mean? Like silly songs that everyone's like, oh my God, I know that song. Let's sing along, you know, or like the really cheesy love ballads from the 80s, like Peter Cetera, like, you know, from Karate Kid to, you know, things like that. I mean, again, my goal for karaoke is to have fun and be silly, not necessarily to show off how great a singer I am. And I think that's the fun part of karaoke. I wish that corporate America, key emphasis on America, would incorporate this tradition.

[12:18] Jose Llana: It was two weeks ago. I was at a business event, and karaoke was brought out by the singers in the group. And there were managers who didn't sing, and people who just aren't used to it. And so it was so painful to watch them, A, try to refuse, but then they were like, fine, fine, fine, caving to peer pressure, and then picking songs that were so inappropriate, not only for them, but for... Yeah, like one of my managers picked "Baby Got Back," which if you actually look at those lyrics, they're not right. Not for corporate, not for corporate. Yeah, know your audience, know your audience. Know your audience and know your lyrics. Yeah, I think that's the lesson. But the family, though, has your family been able to come see "Here Lies Love"?

[13:07] Alan Seales: Oh, absolutely. They saw it a bunch of times when we were at the Public. And they were all there for opening night. My mom, my dad, my stepdad, my stepmom, my sister, her husband, the kids. No, they've been very much... First of all, my family and I are very close. It's just my mom, my dad, my sister and me. And then my parents got divorced when I was 10, and they're both remarried. And I'm very close to my stepdad and my stepmom. And so I have a large family. My mom and dad have always been super, super supportive of their artist, younger child. And this show has been very cathartic for all of us. I think, like I said, we came here to escape martial law. But my parents... Filipino-Americans are one of two... There are either one of two camps.

You either come here, and you leave everything behind, because Filipinos are the masters of assimilation. You said, we're going to be Americans now. We're not going to speak Filipino and Tagalog at home. Our kids are going to be raised here, and they're going to not have accents. And we're just going to move forward. And that's okay. That's a lot of people. A lot of people do that, and Filipinos are very good at assimilating. My parents were of the other camp, where they kept a very Filipino household. They spoke Tagalog at home. My sister and I grew up understanding Tagalog. And we have a hard time speaking it now, just we're not immersed in it. But if someone is speaking Tagalog to me, I'll completely understand what they're saying, which I'm so grateful for.

But the most important thing they did was they raised my sister and me with the full knowledge of why we left the Philippines. That it was a hard choice, and what martial law was, and what we were watching on TV, the news reports that we were watching, and explaining what it was about. Because we were in my suburban living room in Virginia, watching all the protest rallies, and watching Ninoy Aquino flying home to the Philippines in 1983, and watching the assassination, and understanding why that was horrible. And the image of him on the tarmac was burned in my brain as a kid. And so when I told them that I was going to be a part of this musical 12 years ago, 11 years ago, this workshop of a new musical, they were a little suspicious.

They were like, why? First of all, I came into this audition thinking I wanted to go play Ninoy. I walked into that audition room and demanded to be seen for Ninoy Aquino so I could make my parents proud that I was going to play this hero. And I wanted to work with David, and I wanted to work with Alex, and obviously the public too. And I guess my authoritative voice demanding to play Ninoy made them think, maybe this guy may be better playing the president. We'll know, we'll see. So from day one working on the show, my parents and I had an open conversation about it. And I made it very clear to the production and to the creative team that if we ever veered in a direction of glorifying the Marcoses and presenting them in any positive light, that I was going to walk away from the project.

And they respected that. And they went the completely other direction. They said, tell us about your family. Tell us about your parents. Then we can maybe help shape this piece and know what we want to say with this piece. And so I've never been more intimately involved in the creation of a piece. David wrote this music before we ever met. David Byrne, yeah. Yeah, but once we got in a rehearsal room with Alex and we started telling stories and perspectives about the stories that we were telling, I feel very much my DNA is in this piece. And I've been part of this project every step of the way.

[17:12] Alan Seales: We're going to take a short break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[17:22] Alan Seales: Tell me more about that, because this is the first time I've heard that the show came together. I guess the script came together based on a collaboration of personal stories from those of you who either lived through it or were directly descendant of it, right? So what was that like? So you're coming in to audition for a role that they don't really know how to tell yet?

[17:39] Jose Llana: Yeah, because the original concept album, there was only one Marco song, which is the big song, the Perfect Hand song, that has stayed with the piece. But in the concept album, there was no Aquino song. There really wasn't. Because the original concept album focused almost entirely on Imelda and Estrella, the housekeeper nanny that she grew up with. And that was pretty much the primary focus. It was almost all their songs. And there were three songs that are no longer part of the show, but were basically Imelda when she was a child. And so to transition from concept album to theater piece, and once you have Alex Timbers along and Oscar Eustace at the Public Theater, who's like the king of dramaturgs, I think when they were beginning to shape it, they realized the story that they wanted to tell was this triangle.

It had to involve Marcos a little bit more than there was on the concept album. And it definitely had to bring in Ninoy Aquino and make him a pivotal part of the story, because he wasn't part of the original concept album. And so I think sharing my stories with my family, and I think just understanding the background of... And also to understanding, too, that there are different perspectives from people who stayed in the Philippines and lived through martial law, and people like myself and my family, the Filipino-Americans, who left and raised their kids as Americans. And here we are trying to find perspective on our Filipino history from different sides of the Pacific. Do you know what I mean?

And I think... I've always said that "Here Lies Love" is a testament to the workshop process, that every step of the way from that first workshop at the Public in 2011, even before I was involved, David had that concert in Carnegie Hall, and I think he realized that was not the direction he wanted to go. And then when he finally got connected with Alex and Oscar Eustace at the Public Theater, then it became a theatrical piece that was getting closer and closer to what David always had in mind, which was telling the story in a disco. I can't imagine being in that room 15 years ago, and he was like, I want to tell a story in a disco setting. And you're like, oh, sure, that'll never fly. You can tell the story of martial law with karaoke and disco, yeah, yeah.

So it was just... We had that first workshop, and it was in a little tiny black box at NYU. There were only, I believe, nine actors, and we just literally did the first eight songs of the show. And at that point, the first eight songs were still three songs when Imelda was young, and then we didn't get to... And the Ninoy character had this new song that didn't last past that workshop. It was definitely an experiment, that song, and it didn't pass that experiment. And I remember that first workshop ended with the line dance and the wedding. It was bizarre, right? Everyone felt like something was interesting, but it hadn't fully formed what it was yet. And then a couple months later, I got a call saying we're going to do a second workshop, or we're going to keep going with the next eight songs in a cycle.

And I walked into that room, and there was maybe just one or two people who were there from the previous workshop, including Ruthie. Ruthie and I were both found for that first workshop. And then there was a whole slew of other people. There was a new Ninoy. And so every step along the way, they made huge strides. And then that second workshop, I believe Peter Negrini and the projections got more involved, and we just really started thinking, oh, this telling the story in a stand, and basically, like even in the black box in NYU, we were standing amongst the invited audience. He invited 30 people in that little black box, and we were telling the story around them. And I had this little camcorder in my hand for "Perfect Hand."

You know, and it was bizarre, but it was the genesis of where we are now. And I consider it an absolute privilege that, like as an actor, that I have distinct memory of every step of the way of this piece and the mistakes and the trials and the experimentation that happened between 2011 and now. And it's such a thrill to be able to see it finally reach the finish line. And so Mass MoCA, when we went to Williamstown Theater Festival and presented the full piece there, was a huge leap forward in terms of the understanding what the piece was. You know, Corins, Dave Corins came in and built this behemoth of a set. The platforms were much taller in Mass MoCA. They were like shoulder height.

[23:01] Alan Seales: Oh, really?

[23:01] Jose Llana: Ultra dangerous and ultra heavy. And I think that in itself was really experimentation. And we had only seven performances at Mass MoCA. And even then, we still had those three songs in the beginning. And I remember when we moved to the public the next year, Oscar Eustace basically said, cut those three songs, get to the point, let's get to Manila right away. You know, and I think it's stuff like that, that was like at first we're like, cutting three songs? Oh, no. But it changed everything to finally get to the point of the story. And Clint Ramos has been involved with it even before that. And Annie B. Parsons, just to do her choreography and all the different iterations, it's just been a thrill.

[23:43] Alan Seales: When did Leia come in as a producer?

[23:48] Jose Llana: I believe for the Broadway production. I think her name was, again, I'm only speculating because obviously I was involved in those talks. But from what I gather, when the rumblings were happening, and the rumblings have been happening on and off for the past 10 years, right?

[24:03] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[24:04] Jose Llana: But the latest rumblings started mid-COVID because there were plans that were very serious January of 2020. I got a phone call in January of 2020 and it's like, this is happening and we're revving up for later in the year or next year.

[24:22] Alan Seales: Was this pre or post January 6th?

[24:26] Jose Llana: Oh, post.

[24:29] Alan Seales: Pre, pre.

[24:31] Jose Llana: January 6th happened while we were in COVID. I'm talking about...

[24:35] Jose Llana: Before COVID, we were all ready to go. And then COVID happened. And, you know, it was one more thing. It's like, we were almost ready to go in 2017. We were almost all ready to go in 2014. And every time there was, you know, just the, it just didn't happen, you know, and for a plethora of reasons, but Leia became involved, I believe, you know, after the talks began again, and after COVID. I think the producers now and at this point, Jose Antonio Vargas and Clinton have joined the producing team, and Clint Ramos went from being our costume designer only to also one of our lead producers. I think there were big conversations about how can we, what can we do with the show that will reach out to the Filipino community.

And obviously, the dream was to have Leia involved in some capacity. And I think her coming in as the guest artist for Aurora was a stroke of genius because every night when she sings that song, it brings down the house and it solidifies what we always know and just the importance of that song. And the fact that we are putting such an important song in the hands of the legend that is Leia Salonga, that is purposeful, and that resonates with the audience. And then she, I believe when she came on, they began talking about whether she wanted to come on as a producer as well. And having that, or not her just being as a performer, but as a producer, really resonates with a lot of Filipinos, particularly the Filipinos who are in Manila, and who are not Filipino American, but specifically just Filipino.

It legitimizes the show in a way that's very specific and personal to people who have any doubt that the show might be something that is not respectful to the Filipino culture and not honoring our history or honoring the way we want to tell the story.

[26:49] Alan Seales: I was gonna ask about the, I guess just making it personal because it seems like everywhere I read there is another cast member coming out with their own story or people coming in and getting attached to it who have these backstories and these experiences with being first generation, or immigrating themselves or like yourself that their family literally is a product of the story that you're telling, retelling eight times a week. And so I guess, like for your own kind of mental health, right, you're playing somebody that so many people most accurately and appropriately despise. Right. And I mean, he is a real dictator. And, and so I guess, now, I get well, there's multiple parts of this question, because I'm kind of all over the place in what I'm thinking.

But for you playing a bad person, again, your parents come to see it. And this is kind of what I was getting at originally was like, are they able to separate the person that you're playing from you? Because I hear stories sometimes of actors who play bad people on TV. And then people come up, and they're like, I hate you. Yeah. So like, is that there at all?

[28:10] Jose Llana: That happened. That did happen. And something that Alex Timbers decided to do helped shift that. First of all, it still happens. And I am fine with that. You know, if you come to our show, and you leave, and you see me on the street, and my portrayal of Marcos makes you that uncomfortable, then I think I've done my job. Yeah, I think that is fine. I have plenty of other people in my life who can show me love. If someone who comes to the theater and sees me portray Marcos decides to not want to talk to me and kind of hate me from afar, I'm cool with that. I'm absolutely cool with that. You know, one thing that Alex Timbers did, because like the first week of previews, there were situations where, in the curtain call, I would come out for my bow, and the applause would diminish.

Wow. And there was a definite feeling in the audience that we don't want to applaud this guy. And that's hard, to be honest, as an actor, and you're finishing your show, and you're taking your curtain call. And then later, a couple and then 20 minutes later, I'm leaving the stage door, and I see people literally, like, recoil when I come out. That hurt, but that's fine. Like I said, if I've done my job, but Alex Timbers said, you know, we're going to change that, you know, I think we want you guys to bow as the actors that you are, not the characters that you just portrayed. So he had, it was a very simple change. Conrad, Rick Amora, and I changed from our character costumes into street clothes.

Well, not street clothes, they're basically like contemporary clothes, in the same color scheme, like mine are still black, and he's still in white, but they were not Marcos, and we're not, you know, in the curtain call. And it made a huge difference. Wow. It made a huge difference. And they also added Conrad, Ariel, and myself and Leia to the final song, "God Draw Straight." And we all are basically, take it as you will, you either see us as ensemble village people, but it's a separation, we are no longer Imelda, Ninoy, and Marcos, we are part of the ensemble, part of the cast. And then the curtain call is after that. It was very helpful for me to do that because then I got a warm response in my curtain call as opposed, like people were applauding, thankfully, the actor and not the character that I was playing.

And I could feel it instantly when I left the theater at the stage door. But you know, listen, I'm okay playing a villain, I've played villains in the past, it's okay. Sometimes they're the juiciest parts there. And he is the villain of my family history. You know, my parents would tell me stories about him and his trail of death and destruction that this man has left behind is still being felt today. Yeah. And in researching this part, you know, I, yes, I researched him, even though his recorded history is so full of falsehoods and invented truths. And because that's just how we play it. He was a smart man who knew that he could write his own history. So he wrote this journal every day that was semi-true.

So like, when they found his journal, people were like, the dates are wrong, like he wrote it, but like, but even him writing in his daily journal knew that someone was going to find it someday. So he would like, invent things in his journal, like, this is how this man thought. And so this kind of self-important, I'm gonna make a mark in this world, arrogance and ego. I had, I didn't have to look any further than like, looking at contemporary examples, like Trump and Putin, you know, it's like, it's real. And like, that's the same version of these people, these men, usually, but these people exist in cycles in history, like it's the same there. I mean, they're all the same. They're literally all the same.

And so in terms of what I played differently, I think Conrad and I have both been asked frequently, because we are reprising roles that we played 10 years ago. We both have gone on to play other roles in between the two projects, and that have only strengthened what we do, like I went to go play the King of Siam for a couple of years, and finding the strength and power of being the king has only helped me find the ego of playing Ferdinand, and being a little older and being more secure and not needing to eager to please like maybe as I was when I was younger. And I think my confidence in the piece has only increased in the 10 years since we did it the first time.

[33:15] Alan Seales: We're going to take a short break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[33:25] Jose Llana: So I think playing the villain is fine for me. My dad has a harder time than my mom. My mom, I'm always going to be my mom's little boy. And so she's easier. She sees me more easily as her son playing a part. Yeah. But, but my dad, you know, I sometimes I get a little angry at politics. And I'm the kind of guy who curses at the television when something on the news happens. I get that from my dad. You know, he's a hot-headed activist. And, you know, he was at those protest rallies a lot more than my mom was. And so, you know, I think he, he's proud of me. And he's proud that we're telling the story. But it's hard for him sometimes to know that his handsome young boy is going around playing the guy that he hates.

[34:22] Alan Seales: But the silver lining, I think, is that you're by playing this guy that he hates, you're bringing to light, you're bringing to the surface, a story that so many people, myself included, did not know before. I mean, or maybe we had heard a little bit of or something. I were like, Oh, man, this is January 6th insurrection. Well, that almost happened, but it didn't. So we're okay. But we're not, because just like you said, exactly, it's gonna happen again and again and again. So we need to know how to deal with it. And we need to learn from the past.

[34:57] Jose Llana: Absolutely. And I think, you know, I'm watching like, just this morning, I was watching, you know, obviously, Trump is being indicted again today, and he's been showing up to the court, the his playbook that he's been having, the whole insurrection, January 6, the playbook with January 6. If you do the research that I've done, and looked up all the different attempts that Marcos made to stay in power, when he realized he was in the middle beginning of his second term as president, he only had four years left, he literally was like, maybe we'll change to a parliamentary system. And I'll name myself Prime Minister, then I could be Prime Minister forever. Like, he literally had all these options because he was petrified that once his second term ended that he would be useless and not be able to run for president again.

And so he created all these situations where there were riots, he really, there was a bombing, and he said, the bombing was done by this party, even though the vast majority of people who were killed in the bombing were of that party, you know, and so he wanted to create all this mayhem and violence so that he would have to declare martial law. And if you're looking, if you're listening closely to all this Trump stuff, and all this January 6, and the fake electors, they were expecting January 6 to happen, they were looking, they were expecting it to happen so that someone had to declare martial law. Yeah. And that was one of his options. And so like, when I when people say like, Oh, my God, things that happened in the Philippines in 1970, that'll never happen. It's happening all over the place. And it's a playbook that dictators and wannabe dictators know works. And so the sad truth, though, is that, you know, once Marcos was kicked out of the Philippines,

[36:52] Jose Llana: It didn't mean a lot of his supporters were not still in power in different forms of in different levels of government in the Philippines. The most important people that were in power were the people who are in charge of the educational system. A bunch of Marcos supporters have been in charge of the educational system in the Philippines for the past 45 years. Because of that, if you look at the textbooks and history books that have been taught to the public school system in the Philippines ever since martial law, they don't talk about martial law. So you have entire generations of Filipinos for whom martial law is something that their grandparents talk about, but they don't know anything about it.

So now this guy is running for president, and the only thing they have to know about martial law is on Facebook because 99% of the Filipinos are on Facebook. They don't watch the news; they only click on. It's maddening. So what's it? Is there any mention of the people power revolution in these textbooks? Yes, but then they kind of gloss over what the people power revolution was for. It was like, oh, they toppled the government that they didn't agree with anymore. But the fact is that martial law and the horrible things that happened during martial law and the billions of dollars stolen have not been taught. So now you have these young people who are in their 20s, 30s, and 40s who have grown up with social media being spoon-fed false information about what those years were about.

And that's exactly how Marcos got elected. It's part of the playbook of, you know, if—and I always want to recommend it—Maria Ressa, who's the Nobel Peace Prize-winning journalist who founded Rappler.com. She lays it all out in her book. It's called "How to Stand Up to a Dictator," and it's about the Duterte election and how Facebook is ravaging the educational system and it's ravaging Filipinos' ability to make good decisions about who to elect to office. It was a huge, huge help in my research about understanding, yes, I'm playing a guy who took over the Philippines 50 years ago, but it could happen again. And trying to understand where Filipinos are today, why my parents, who are retired, look at the Philippines now and the government there and are just frustrated because they're just exhausted by the whole thing. Because all the work that they did 60 years ago, it's kind of all crumbling.

[39:04] Alan Seales: Well, even locally in our own country now, in America, if you had not said you were talking about Marcos, I could have assumed any number of different people actively in the news today.

[39:51] Jose Llana: Absolutely. Yeah, that's just sad. It's interesting, and I want to get your kind of educated guess on this, but I just finished a podcast yesterday called "Run Hide Repeat" about somebody whose entire family, up until I think their late 30s, was disrupted by this guy who had lived this complete delusion his whole adult life. It's called a type of psychotic disorder called delusional disorder. Very simply put, where you literally make up this entire elaborate story about what is happening. And it could be something like, oh, I'm being spied on, so I can't go in this room because there are bad things here. Anyway, like, so they moved their family around Canada their entire childhood because all of a sudden they were found and then they had to move again.

Right? And then everybody else in that circle starts to believe it so wholeheartedly because it's so seemingly impossible that it becomes—it's not totally improbable that it's not impossible. And so everyone—there's always a shred of truth. Their baseline of truth has been shifted so much, so often that they can't see beyond that baseline, right? So my, I guess my question for you then is, is people like Marcos or even like our former president or Putin or whoever it is, do you think there's a part of a delusion that's there where they genuinely believe it, or is it all ego where they just have to—are a combination of the two, right, where they just have to be like—

[41:26] Jose Llana: It's definitely a combination of the two, you know, and I think it's a good also a reminder that our show actually is about Imelda. And I bring that up because she is the perfect example of delusion. And I think if a psychologist or a psychiatrist actually sat her down and talked to her, there's a level of delusion that would kind of classify her as slightly deranged in the sense that she truly believes—and I don't think it's ego necessarily—but she truly believes it. It's that she was placed on this earth by God. It's like a reference. People like that around them, the reference is so shifted that that's what they have to believe because they don't know any different.

[42:10] Absolutely, and yeah, I've always felt that between—if I had to compare Marcos and Imelda, Imelda comes from a little bit of a delusion where she was this molded clay that was shoved in directions, and it created a world for her that was a creation of delusion, basically. Marcos, I don't think, was delusional. I think he was more calculated, and I think he was a criminal, you know? And I think one of the things that people—even amongst them, many people will have different and differing opinions about Marcos—it is a fact that when he was young, as a young man living in the northern province of the Philippines, his father was a politician. His father was running for mayor against a rival.

The rival won. Marcos and his uncle killed that rival and then was sent to jail. While he was in prison, he got his law degree. Marcos stood before a judge and convinced the judge to let him off. The judge literally wrote down, "This man is so smart and so charismatic, we cannot let him rot in jail. He must be set free to be someone important for this country." To leave snake oil salesman. It's absolutely—so like that is literally the genesis of who Marcos is. Basically, he learned very young in life, I can do what the hell I want as long as I can get myself out of it, you know? And he was one of the smartest people in the room. He had a photographic memory; he could memorize speeches. So when I see that, when I compare Marcos and Imelda, Marcos was always smart and calculated, and Imelda is kind of like the delusional—everyone tells her she's beautiful.

Everyone tells her that she's put on this earth to be gorgeous. And so there's two very different despots here, you know? Like very different approaches to the world. And I think what's beautiful about "Here Lies Love" is that we get to live in that world of Imelda, and Imelda's world is that disco, you know, where she takes these trips with these world leaders and she gets hurt by Marcos. And she goes, you know, it allows me, from my character study for Marcos, I try to control her as much as I can, and I try to control the situation as much as I can, and that's what I do when I'm on stage. But the frustrating thing with Marcos is that he got sick and that he was not able to keep control.

[45:04] To answer your question, I think—I don't think he was delusional, but I think it was a lot of ego. Marcos was walking ego. And I think I don't compare him to Trump as much as I compare him to Putin. I think he is definitely someone who is smart, who has the ego and the need for power. He's been in power now for a very long time, and he doesn't want to let go. And I think also too—and I don't want to play into conspiracy theories here—but I think he's also sick right now, and I think there's a lot of stuff that's trying to cover up that he is. So I mean, I think when I try to make connections to contemporary leaders, Putin is so easy to connect to, particularly there are like photos of themselves bare-chested on horses and working out in gyms that Marcos shares. Taken. Yeah, so here's that famous picture of Putin on a bear or whatever. I don't even know if that's real. I think I need a snoops.com on that one.

[46:11] Alan Seales: Yeah, this is fascinating. You're right, and the show does center around Imelda, and you're absolutely right because the beginning of "Here Lies Love" goes through the whole beauty pageant scene because people—and especially women of that time—are treated in a certain way, and then they only find their value by continuing. Again, it's—you're presented with a reality, and if you have no perspective on how it can be different, and there was no social media, there was no internet really at that point, right? And that's all you know, and you're like, if you're told your entire life, well, you have to be pretty to stay relevant, and then you have no ability to make decisions to keep power other than just like—

[47:03] Jose Llana: Yeah, I'm saying it's like I totally see how she became delusional, especially when married to a complete psychopath.

[47:10] Absolutely, and then they had access to all the money they ever wanted. Yeah, and they were basically told you can do whatever the hell you want to do. I mean, what that does to someone's psyche—and not to let her off the hook—I mean, the woman is deplorable. Like she chooses to live in her delusion. Do you know what I mean? Like I think it's—it's what—it's—I don't want to say that she's delusional by any means to let her off any hook here. Like the woman is calculating; the woman knows who she is. The woman knows the money that they stole. There's a part of her that knows it's stolen, but it's still hers. Like I earned it because I stole it. Normal people don't pack diamonds in diaper bags when they're leaving their house.

Like just—it's just for yourself. There's a level of criminality in there that's just in plain sight here, you know? Like if you thought it was really yours, why are you hiding jewels in diaper bags when you're leaving the house? I just didn't—so things like that are just—and then what's frustrating too, in the same way, like this morning I'm watching the news and 70% of GOP voters still believe that Trump is innocent, you know? I mean, like there is a level to me—like when I see people who are still massive Marcos supporters, it's frustrating because, like you said, these people live in a different reality. They live in a different world where they've been told a falsehood so often, and their grandparents lived it, and their parents lived it, that it's their baseline.

[48:49] Jose Llana: We're going to take a short break. Stay tuned for more of the episode.

[48:51] Alan Seales: Marco support in the Philippines has never waned. I kind of caught—it's been not dissimilar to—I had kind of like the white supremacy problem in America where it's never gone away. It's just they just didn't talk about it, right? And now with Trump back in power, they've just found—they're more empowered to say things out loud than the things that they always thought.

[49:09] Jose Llana: The Marcos supporters are finding that power right now. They've been here forever. They've been around since Marcos was kicked out, now they can finally go to a party and go, Oh, I've been a Marcos supporter since they left 40 years ago. And that's what's frightening. That is, that is what is the most frightening because those people have maintained positions of power, both in the Philippines and in America, because a lot of people came to America with suitcases full of cash. You know, when they could tell that Marcos was about to be kicked out, there were planes full of Filipinos who were like, Let's get the hell out of here. Take all the suitcases of cash that Marcos gave us to keep quiet.

And let's go buy a house in America and not talk about it for anymore. There are a lot of people who got very wealthy off the Marcos. And to be honest, a lot of their kids and grandkids have no idea. So, you know, and so there are populations of Filipino Americans who are here, second, third generation, who, you know, had a nice head start as immigrants. You know, they came here and were able to buy a house right away and go to private schools maybe. And they've never asked their parents, What made us so well off when we came to America? Because they just didn't want to talk about it. Or they know and they don't or they have an idea and they don't want to know because then it would mean that they can't enjoy it.

Which is why sometimes it's hard for a lot of people to talk about the show. And because, you know, whether or not you are for Marcos or against Marcos, martial law was a traumatic experience for everybody except the rich people. But like it was a traumatic experience, you know, and and no matter how well it ended with the People Power Revolution, there was still 20 years of trauma involved in it. And I have to remind myself of that, that as much as as good as it is that we're telling this story and we're getting people to talk about it, it can be very hard for some people to talk about.

[51:13] Alan Seales: I can't believe it's 20 years, though. I mean, because in another multiverse, another version of the multiverse, January 6th was successful and we have a dictator in America. Right. And it would just be the beginning. We've had we had four years, thankfully not eight. And I got 20 years. I remember I was I was 23. How old am I now? I was 22. I can't remember how old I am. I was 22, had the world ahead of me. Everything was great. And I cannot imagine going through the last 20 years just fearful to walk outside like that's that's really serious stuff. And I'm I'm just like I'm thankful to you and the cast and everybody for educating us dumbass Americans speaking for myself on these stories that happen outside. Because even in America, like you get the victors write the history books. But we we learn very little even in public school. Growing up, I learned so little about international history. And then on the news today. Yeah, there's so much to learn.

[52:18] Jose Llana: And also to the things that I've had to learn as a Filipino-American, which clearly I was not taught in American schools, was the enormous Filipino, the enormous American interference and involvement at the beginning of Filipino creation, Filipino government. Like we went from being like the joke is the state that is that we Filipinos were not a country at all until the Spaniards came. We were we were basically a bunch of island tribes that traded with each other and spoke different languages. And then Spain came and said, look at all you people living near each other. We're going to call you a country. We're going to name you Filipinos after King Philip of Spain. And we're going to be in charge for the next 400 years.

We're going to make you Catholic and we're going to systematically rename all of you from your tribal names to Spanish names. Right. So for 400 years, we were a colony of Spain. And then suddenly when Spain's colonizing started, you know, falling apart, the Americans came in and said, we'll free you, but we're going to be in charge, you know, and we're going to give you a government that's basically a copy and paste of our constitution. But every president that you elect is going to be the guy that we want because we need you guys to let us have these three naval bases here forever and ever. And so like if you look at the history, like the Filipinos don't really celebrate the first four presidents of our history because they were they were kind of just little figureheads.

That'll kill me for saying this, but like they were basically, you know, American military pawns. They were they were there as like, oh, he'll get elected president, but we control him. Which is exactly why when Marcos got elected in 1965, the Philippines was still a very young country. We were only really independent for like, you know, six, 50, 60 years at that point. He came in with this whole notion of nationalism and said, we are Filipinos. I'm going to stand up for us and we're going to get this and get that. And people like my parents who were freshmen in college in 1965 were like, this guy, he's smart. We're going to vote for him. And he won in a landslide. And then within just four years of his first term, things turned so sour and so much money was stolen.

And it radicalized a lot of young people like my parents and said, this guy is dangerous. And then, boom, two years after that, martial law was declared. So it's like it can it can happen so quickly, so, so quickly. But most Filipinos don't understand the involvement of American politics and military in Filipino history. Which is why we start the show with American troglodyte. Like you can't talk about Filipino history without talking about American involvement. Like the first line we say in the show is, did you know that the Philippines sold, bought America from the Spanish for $20 million? That's exactly true. It's exactly true.

[55:22] Alan Seales: You need to be an adjunct history professor at some point around here. Like I had no clue this episode was going to go this deep into history. And I feel like I could continue to talk for another like five hours. Like this has been so, so enlightening. It's phenomenal. I love learning this stuff.

[55:43] Jose Llana: My parents are very proud that you said that. It's also just 12 years of research for a job. You know what I mean? But still, you're passionate about it. It's very personal, right? Like I love that I've done all this research. But it's like I was embarrassed. I said, you know, 10 years ago I said, I should know more of this. Like I'm an adult Filipino American man. I need to know more of my history. Like why don't I know enough of this? And so I've hopefully found out more and had a better perspective on the whole thing. And be able to talk about it is really important.

[56:16] Alan Seales: Well, I think you should teach.

[56:18] Jose Llana: I don't know. Do some. Do like a weekly or a semi, like every couple days or something. Just post a little history lesson on TikTok. You know? Or on Instagram Reels. I don't know. Somewhere where you're like, you're Filipino fact of the day. That would be cool.

[56:34] Alan Seales: All right. So let's wrap up the episode with three questions I ask everyone to close it out. Just the very first question simply is, what motivates you?

[56:44] Jose Llana: What motivates me is my family. And making them proud. And my husband. Making him proud. I think the older I get and the more I work, it becomes less about my own personal ego. And things like opening night. I had them all there for opening night. And I live for making my sister proud. Making my parents proud. And making my husband proud.

[57:10] Alan Seales: I can tell. It comes through with everything you're talking about.

[57:12] Jose Llana: Yeah.

[57:13] Alan Seales: What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[57:20] Jose Llana: Relax. I think, again, I always think it's a good thing and a bad thing. The immigrant mentality of time is running out. You've got to do everything. I think I spent way too much of my 20s stressed out about time. And not getting the right this. And not doing the right that. And I think I didn't enjoy myself as much. I think even when things were going well, I was stressing out about the next job. And I think I would tell them to stop and enjoy where you are. Even if it's not perfect. But there's always something to learn about where you are.

[58:00] Alan Seales: Beautiful. Okay. Last question. Hardest one. If you can see only one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[58:09] Jose Llana: Are we talking about a musical theater show?

[58:11] Alan Seales: Sure.

[58:12] Jose Llana: Interpret it how you will. But we'll go with musical theater since you said that. Oh. Okay. Wow. That is hard. You know what? I'm going to go back on the show thing. I'm going to say a movie.

[58:26] Alan Seales: Okay.

[58:27] Jose Llana: And it's a movie that I go back to over and over again. And it's When Harry Met Sally.

[58:33] Alan Seales: In a particular scene?

[58:40] Jose Llana: It was one of the first movies I was obsessed with as a kid. And it was very New York to me. And it was about being an adult in New York. And every time I revisit that movie, I'm a different age gap, age break. I watched the movie as a teenager. And then I was a 20-something. And then I was a 30-something. And now I'm a 40-something. And different parts of that movie read to me. And it's about friendship. It's about relationship. And it's about New York. And I think that movie is one of my go-to. If I need to relax, it's on my phone. I bought it on Amazon years ago. And I can just play it whenever I want. So there you go.

[59:17] Alan Seales: That's a good point. There aren't a lot of love letters to New York anymore in movies.

[59:21] Jose Llana: Really not. Yeah?

[59:23] Alan Seales: We're also cynical. Who wants to write a love letter to New York? But my favorite New York feeling is especially when you leave New York. Because it's always good to leave New York and come back. But I always look forward to the cab ride from the airport going into the city. Because when your cab is going over the hill and you see the skyline for the first time...

[59:43] Jose Llana: Queens.

[59:44] Alan Seales: I know exactly what you're talking about. Right? Yeah. Whether it's the daytime or the nighttime, the second you see the skyline, my shoulders drop. And I'm like, all right. I'm home. No matter what time of day, I can go get a bagel if I want it.

[59:55] Jose Llana: Yep.

[59:56] Alan Seales: Order breakfast 24-7. That's all you need to know. Bagels and breakfast. Where can we find you on social media?

[1:00:02] Jose Llana: TheJoseLana. T-H-E-J-O-S-E-L-L-A-N-A on Instagram.

[1:00:07] Alan Seales: And what is it?

[1:00:09] Jose Llana: It's not Twitter anymore. It's X.

[1:00:10] Alan Seales: X. Okay. And...

[1:00:14] Jose Llana: My thought...

[1:00:16] Alan Seales: Speaking of weird dictators.

[1:00:17] Jose Llana: Right? And thread, I guess.

[1:00:20] Alan Seales: Threads.

[1:00:22] Jose Llana: Threads, yeah. Yeah. You post... Are you threading? Like, when you post, are you threading?

[1:00:26] Alan Seales: I haven't figured that out yet. I mean, the best thing is that it's attached to Instagram, right? So, I guess. I don't know. I like threads right now because they don't... I don't know if it's on their roadmap to implement this, but you can't sort by... filter by hashtags. Right? So, if you put hashtag whatever, it's not a link like it is on Instagram. So, like, bots can't find you. You don't get the spammy comments. You, like, are actually following people. So, I've had some pretty meaningful stuff on thread.

[1:00:54] Jose Llana: That's a good design.

[1:00:56] Alan Seales: Yeah. I like it. I like it a lot. Well, I'm on Instagram and X. This is the first time I've had to say that.

[1:01:00] Jose Llana: Ew, that sounded so gross.

[1:01:02] Alan Seales: It doesn't feel right.

[1:01:04] Jose Llana: It doesn't feel good.

[1:01:05] Alan Seales: For a while. I was on Twitter. Now, I'm on X. Threads, Facebook. Listen and leave a review wherever you're listening. Jukebox the Ghost gave us our intro outro music. And, Jose, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this chat.

[1:01:17] Jose Llana: Same to you. Thanks so much.

[1:01:20] Alan Seales: Take a deep breath. Make the world a little colorful.